Psychology of Bystanders, Perpetrators and Upstanders

[00:00:00] Never Again

[00:00:06] Join Dr. Pius Camau and the Coalition Against Global Genocide, as we journey across the globe,

[00:00:15] taking a deep look at past, present and impending genocides and mass atrocities.

[00:00:20] Listen to experts who discuss not only the history but also the resiliency and mental

[00:00:24] health of people who are recovering from these heinous acts.

[00:00:28] Learn how we can move from bystander to active involvement, calling out genocidal acts where you are.

[00:00:34] The psychology of bystanders, perpetrators and upstander.

[00:00:39] So you and I were members of the COAG, Coalition Against Global Genocide,

[00:00:50] and I think it's important for us to mention that so that we're listening to this,

[00:00:56] may know about the organization, our wonderful group,

[00:01:00] and if they're so wish, I mean they can join us in whichever way they can.

[00:01:06] First of all, Karen, can you go ahead and tell the listener what it is, who you are?

[00:01:14] Of course, of course. So my name is Karen Zauder Brass,

[00:01:20] and I am the daughter of Holocaust survivor David Zauder.

[00:01:25] He was born in Poland and went through four concentration camps and multiple death marches as a child,

[00:01:32] from eight years old to 14, 15 years old before he came to this country through Ellis Island as one of the first boats that were welcomed here from the Holocaust, honestly.

[00:01:45] Because he was my father, I have a great story to share.

[00:01:49] However, he was more than just my father. He was a very important businessman and musician.

[00:01:58] He worked for Cleveland Orchestra for 40 years as a main first cornetist and second trumpet position,

[00:02:05] as well as their personnel manager, and wore a number of hats in the organization as well as volunteered outside of the organization.

[00:02:12] So he is very well known in classical music industry, internationally.

[00:02:19] So a lot of what I discerned I needed to do was share his story because he did not let his history stop him from rising to his best self-actualization self, right?

[00:02:33] The highest Maslow hierarchy level he got there.

[00:02:36] And I know many people who go through genocide don't have those opportunities, but I also know that there's big lessons to be learned from the Holocaust.

[00:02:46] And as an educator myself and having taught in schools, I feel it's very important that we use those Holocaust lessons in such a way that it can be an emotional learning opportunity.

[00:02:58] And that's what I promote.

[00:03:02] Something about what you do in sort of either in calculating or educating, be it students, be it the general public in the work you do.

[00:03:17] And what that work is, I see you call yourself a stand-up star.

[00:03:22] Yes.

[00:03:23] Talk a little bit about that.

[00:03:25] So when I began teaching in 1982, I used the term upstander because that was what was normal and normalized through many different organizations that were already in existence.

[00:03:38] Talking about what someone who is a bystander needs to be instead.

[00:03:43] But I'm severely dyslexic.

[00:03:45] So I kept saying stand-up star.

[00:03:47] But when I did, people understood better what I meant.

[00:03:50] It's an action verb, right?

[00:03:52] Stand up and then group.

[00:03:55] So stand-up stars.

[00:03:56] And I just began to use it.

[00:03:58] I actually made it recognizable in all of my work.

[00:04:02] And then I went ahead and trademarked it and registered it.

[00:04:05] And now it's the title of one of my books.

[00:04:08] So it's very much an important vocabulary word.

[00:04:11] Instead of being a bystander, I ask students and adults alike to be a stand-up star in their actions.

[00:04:18] Yes.

[00:04:19] Now in your work, one of the main topics is the normalization of cruelty.

[00:04:30] I will say that in any situation we must not be silent in the face of oppression or discrimination.

[00:04:37] I would say that understanding that there are so many social norms that have been questioned in the last decade,

[00:04:47] which I'm grateful for.

[00:04:49] Some of the work I do have this become more normalized in the sense that I'm asking people to stand up for others.

[00:04:56] I liken it to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which I mentioned earlier.

[00:05:00] I'll just romance those.

[00:05:02] I mean, ultimately we've got physiological, right?

[00:05:05] We have to have our health.

[00:05:07] We have to have warmth, air, food, shelter.

[00:05:10] That is primary.

[00:05:12] Once you have those things, you focus on your security and your safety.

[00:05:16] A lot of us don't understand what causes somebody to be a bystander is the need for safety.

[00:05:25] They truly believe their safety is at fault or under attack should they take action themselves.

[00:05:32] I think I mentioned to you once before when we were talking about the duty to assist law that's only in six states of the country right now.

[00:05:41] Duty to assist is not the same as a good Samaritan law.

[00:05:45] Many states have rules that if you are a health professional, a doctor, or someone with excellent skills,

[00:05:52] you are required to help somebody who's possibly injured or needs physical help.

[00:05:58] But the duty to assist law is transient of all of that.

[00:06:01] It's focusing on not being a bystander in the face of eminent physical harm, limb or body or basically death.

[00:06:10] And if you are in that situation where you can see that someone is going to be in trouble in that way,

[00:06:17] that you actually are required by law to take action as long as this action won't harm you or put you in harm's way.

[00:06:27] So one of the things that I love about the duty to assist law is that it actually puts us in a position to see police officers holding each other accountable as well.

[00:06:42] So that you don't have a group of people in power being able to mobilize or abuse that power together because even if you're the police officer who chooses to do nothing in that partake,

[00:06:57] you are ultimately witnessing those people who are oppressed or discriminating against or hating or taking ill action against another.

[00:07:07] You can go to jail or be fined for having done nothing.

[00:07:11] Now I will say, I really am behind this law and I would like to start getting it on the books for Colorado.

[00:07:19] But I will share that it's in Vermont, Minnesota and Rhode Island now.

[00:07:24] And that is with an actual fine if you are found not to be a standupster.

[00:07:30] But in three other states, Hawaii, Washington and Wisconsin, if you are found not having taken action when you could have,

[00:07:38] you are just kind of told you did the wrong thing.

[00:07:41] Like you won't go to prison, you won't be fined, you're basically just in trouble.

[00:07:46] So what does that tell us about our people today and what we are expecting others to do in a bystander situation,

[00:07:54] which is again my specialty, how do we activate people to take action in the front face of discrimination, oppression or hatred.

[00:08:04] And I'm really a big proponent of free speech.

[00:08:08] I'm going to say that again.

[00:08:09] I'm a very big proponent of free speech, but not when it is allowed to be promoting hate speech and certainly not without consequences when it does.

[00:08:20] And we have a long way to go to make that happen in this country.

[00:08:24] However, in Poland, Serbia, Netherlands, Norway, they all have the duty to assist us securely in their laws as well as Israel.

[00:08:36] So what are we in America going to do about that?

[00:08:39] I really feel like we need to get together and make a difference in the way we allow bystanders to continue to stand by and watch.

[00:08:48] Oh, by the way, while holding their camera up and videotaping it.

[00:08:52] That should be allowed either.

[00:08:54] But they do because you're safe when you're a bystander and you're standing back doing nothing.

[00:09:00] I would like to do more educational programming for students and adults alike to learn what type of action do you take?

[00:09:10] When do you take it?

[00:09:11] And what does it look like?

[00:09:13] And then let's practice it because we all know the natural lizard brain reaction is to hide and be quiet.

[00:09:20] And that can't be where we live today.

[00:09:22] It just can't.

[00:09:23] So one thing which I think might be interesting to discuss here or for you to delve into is how does the bystander, for example,

[00:09:37] why does he do that number one?

[00:09:39] How is he able to do that?

[00:09:41] And secondly, too, the police person with the harming member of the public, what makes him do that?

[00:09:51] And then the policeman who is standing by him, who is essentially maybe a passive supporter, for example.

[00:10:00] Because I think we have this definition of an active supporter, passive supporter and a disengaged onlooker.

[00:10:08] Maybe you can, because these are things that you deal with and you know, you've studied and you talk about and written about.

[00:10:17] Maybe you can maybe sort of go a little bit into that.

[00:10:21] And the active supporter, passive supporter, disengaged onlooker.

[00:10:28] And then of course, the witness who opposes the bully, for example.

[00:10:35] Right. Well, I know those words have been in existence for quite a while.

[00:10:39] They're certainly not my coined phrases, but I agree that they exist.

[00:10:43] I'm going to bring an example that everyone can attest to, right?

[00:10:47] So you're walking down the street.

[00:10:49] You see these men working on a roof and there's a ladder leaning up against the roof.

[00:10:55] And a man's about to go down that ladder.

[00:10:58] But you notice that the bottom of the ladder was affixed at one point in the correct location.

[00:11:04] And now it's off steady.

[00:11:07] It's not where it should be.

[00:11:09] And you know the person who's about to get on this ladder will fall.

[00:11:12] The ladder is not going to hold his weight.

[00:11:15] You are a witness to this event and you have minutes, maybe a few seconds to say,

[00:11:22] stop, don't count the ladder.

[00:11:24] And you choose, which is what 90% of humans will do.

[00:11:29] You choose to just watch, be a bystander, not get involved, not say anything because number one,

[00:11:37] it's unsafe to say something because what if it happens anyway and you said something?

[00:11:42] What if it gets fixed because you said something?

[00:11:47] What if it's embarrassing feeling to you to speak out in otherwise a business that you're just walking by,

[00:11:55] not a part of the roofers.

[00:11:57] You're not a part of the men that are working there and surely there should be someone else responsible for this right now.

[00:12:05] It shouldn't be you.

[00:12:06] You were just walking by.

[00:12:08] But my question is, and how would you feel when the man falls and breaks his arm because you said nothing?

[00:12:15] That's my question.

[00:12:16] That begins that emotional response.

[00:12:19] I would feel terrible.

[00:12:21] I would feel absolutely terrible if I said nothing.

[00:12:23] I'd much rather say something and be wrong than say something and have that person not go down the ladder without a fixing it correctly.

[00:12:33] I'm an adult person and I have the ability to look past all my history of the times I did not act and feel guilty about it.

[00:12:43] I like to bring up the guilt that one feels when they've not said something in those situations and how they live that guilt the rest of their lives.

[00:12:52] Especially when it's a bullying situation, we all know sticks and stones may break our bones but words will never hurt me is a lie.

[00:13:01] We know this.

[00:13:02] People live with their bullying experience both verbal and physical for the rest of their lives.

[00:13:09] How do the people who just watched actually feel when they remember what they did not do?

[00:13:16] 90% of the time from my experience their answer has been I did not know what to do.

[00:13:23] I really feel like we go back to this educational piece that must be part of our early childhood elementary education buildings where their character is being brought to the surface,

[00:13:35] where there's being talked about socialization and civility as well as responsibility, respect.

[00:13:43] What is that person's contribution going to be?

[00:13:46] And if they are to live in a healthy, respectful, peaceful world will they go to all the way up to their self-accuracy versus all of them who have well lost a freaking genocide

[00:14:00] That could have set up as being different.

[00:14:07] And to answer your question earlier about why do this be a bully or being watchers bystanders instead of taking action?

[00:14:20] It's because it was what they were taught to do.

[00:14:23] Now I don't like to out my father where he can't speak for himself in this situation.

[00:14:28] He's passed on, but I have often said he raised me with this phrase, stay out of the line of fire.

[00:14:36] Stay out of the line of fire.

[00:14:38] If you've seen the movie Schindler's List, my father's story is interwoven in that movie and Steven Spielberg and my father discussed my father's story.

[00:14:48] And one of my dad, my father's jobs was playing the bugle in the morning at Prussia's work camp.

[00:14:55] So you'll see in that movie, the comidate shooting his pistol out his bathroom window at people walking by in the concentration camp of Plaschow.

[00:15:06] My father was the bugle boy. That was my father's job.

[00:15:11] His father told him to stay out of the line of fire and get someone else to play the bugle.

[00:15:16] So that terminology of stay out of the line of fire has been really discussed to me all my life by my father who wanted me not to speak,

[00:15:27] who wanted me not to get involved with inhumanity that man has.

[00:15:32] And as you and I've spoken previously, t'kun olam is very, very important.

[00:15:38] You've mentioned that to me before.

[00:15:40] Making t'kun olam an actual goal is so important. T'kun olam is repairing the world.

[00:15:47] Can you say that phrase again slowly?

[00:15:50] T'kun olam.

[00:15:52] What language is that?

[00:15:54] That is Hebrew and it means to repair the burl.

[00:15:58] When you see something broken, you must fix it and leave it better than you found it.

[00:16:04] And the reason why many Jewish people have that as part of their practice,

[00:16:10] whether they are in the business for physically helping others by being a doctor or a surgeon like yourself,

[00:16:17] or whether they're doing good work that they believe really is needed by society today.

[00:16:23] It's part of our makeup. It's part of our rules.

[00:16:26] It's actually very, very important and we use it rather early.

[00:16:30] It's not just a here on holiday conversation. It's everywhere.

[00:16:35] I think the most important thing of that concept is to understand that right now we are broken.

[00:16:44] We are broken and researchers have found, I know you know this,

[00:16:48] but researchers have found that, and proven it scientifically, that human beings are the race.

[00:16:56] We are one species.

[00:16:58] Regardless of our skin tone, our facial features, our body,

[00:17:02] type, male, female and everything in between, that we are of one species.

[00:17:09] And they have found that the reason for example for the difference in skin tone

[00:17:14] is simply because of the beginning of the race, if you will, the species,

[00:17:19] based on longitude, latitude and possibly even the climate at the time.

[00:17:25] And then we just continue to repopulate based on genetics,

[00:17:29] those skin tones continued regardless of where those people moved.

[00:17:33] So if that's the case and we are all one, and we all live on this tiny little blue planet together,

[00:17:40] we really need to cunolum together.

[00:17:44] It's not one race against the other. We are all one doing this together.

[00:17:49] So that's a very interesting point that you just brought up about skin color and skin tone.

[00:17:57] Well first of all skin color and just like beauty is a skin dip, you know.

[00:18:03] You go below the surface of the epidermis via the skin.

[00:18:10] I mean we are all the same. I mean it bleeds, it's red, bloody.

[00:18:17] So the point that came to my mind was how the Nazi doctors had this anatomic analysis of the face,

[00:18:32] you know, the measurements of the width between the eyes, etc.

[00:18:38] to prove if one was an area and one was not.

[00:18:43] We have to know that that was scientifically disproven, right?

[00:18:47] They used that as a tactic.

[00:18:49] How so strange? We can use science or we can sort of turn science upside down to prove our point.

[00:19:02] Yeah, absolutely. That's propaganda at its finest for sure.

[00:19:05] I know. In fact in South Africa during the apartheid, they had the same thing too.

[00:19:12] I mean to prove that first of all I mean blacks were not humans.

[00:19:16] So they were sub-humans so therefore you could pretty much do anything you wanted with them.

[00:19:23] And then of course coming to America black people were brought here, they were property.

[00:19:33] You can do what you want to do with the property.

[00:19:38] Even though people like Jefferson for example and Franklin, I mean most of those people were just confused.

[00:19:49] But they were in a philosophical and ethical theory I think.

[00:19:58] And economical.

[00:20:00] Exactly.

[00:20:05] So anyway go back to the morals that were missing at that time.

[00:20:09] Well I mean it all became easy to sort of throw morals overboard because the economy of the time was what was most important.

[00:20:23] I mean if you get free labor and for the white men, the slave owners they could do whatever they wanted to do with a man and the women.

[00:20:36] And you know they did a lot of the well, we won't even go there.

[00:20:41] You know some pretty awful things.

[00:20:47] The other thing that I like to do is to somehow take the Holocaust experience and use that experience to that which occurs in the rest of the world.

[00:21:03] Because they are lessens to be learned I think from the Holocaust.

[00:21:07] Yes absolutely.

[00:21:08] And I think history, if we don't learn from history we run the danger of repeating it.

[00:21:16] You know there's a saying that those not learning from history are doomed to repeat it.

[00:21:23] But there's another saying that says those preventing history from being taught are intending to repeat it.

[00:21:31] And again that goes back to economics, power and greed.

[00:21:36] And we need to go back to that character development, moral development that I'm so very much interested in making sure our elementary school age children get in school.

[00:21:47] Because we aren't, we're not doing a good job as a society growing ourselves in this area.

[00:21:54] If we were we would have so many things different than we have today.

[00:21:58] And I know that there's a lot of people that do a lot of the sociology experiments and investigations to see where we land today compared to 500 years ago.

[00:22:11] And we really aren't any different.

[00:22:13] We have not grown this part of who we are.

[00:22:16] And now we have AI and we have electronics and online societies really.

[00:22:22] I mean that's what basically being involved in a Facebook or I'm trying to figure the other one that I don't belong to.

[00:22:29] And so social media in general gives an illusion that goes back to that Maslow's theory of needs right where you're socially getting your number three most important thing we passed physiological and safety and now we're going into number three which is love

[00:22:45] and belonging where you have your friendships and you have your groups that you belong to.

[00:22:50] And when in actuality if you only have friends on Facebook and you have an accident and you go to the hospital who from Facebook is coming to bring you a meal or help you get home from the hospital none of them.

[00:23:03] And that's really concerning to me that we have this false narrative that's following so many people of our young society now that civilization is thinking that we're smart because we have all these social media platforms and what I'm trying to say is they're

[00:23:20] not real.

[00:23:21] Not only are they not real they're not serving us.

[00:23:24] They have a purpose.

[00:23:26] We certainly can use it for good, but we aren't policing it either and again going back to that freedom of speech.

[00:23:33] Freedom of speech means the government can't stop us from saying what we think.

[00:23:39] However, there has to be rules around what we are able to use that platform for.

[00:23:46] So there are people in politics that are attempting to make changes in those social media realms and AI is an existence and able to shut down not just accounts but what people write when they start to write hate speech, which as we know in flames things

[00:24:03] are worse than a disease. It gets fanned so fast and grows so much faster than a fire. We are not capable of retrieving our good selves from prior to that event.

[00:24:16] We cannot go back to where we were before it does not serve us to allow it to go down that road in the first place.

[00:24:23] And so part of my speaking is that when you witness an unfairness and you allow it to continue, you yourself are now part of the dysfunction of our society.

[00:24:36] You yourself are now setting aside your morals and character and you're deciding to allow the worst of us to rise.

[00:24:44] All of us have the ability to have bad thoughts and certainly bad actions, but we have a moral option in our society to rise to the equation to be our best selves again when we have our needs met.

[00:25:01] And when I talk about Mosulist hierarchy of needs with students, I get a lot of comments about well I didn't get breakfast today because my mom's had me for groceries, right?

[00:25:13] So we are not going to be able to fix this high level of thing without starting at the base need of what a human needs.

[00:25:23] So you asked me earlier, why do these people do this? Why does somebody hate on somebody else?

[00:25:29] Because number one, they were taught to number two, they are trying to find their position above someone else making that other person a victim and keeping themselves higher societal wise.

[00:25:49] And that is a normal requirement of a human being to survive. So we have to go back to again, what is survival in humans today?

[00:25:59] It still goes through Mosulist hierarchy of needs. We have to validate that. We can't start at number five and say, well now we're self actualized.

[00:26:12] Well, we don't like the way that person self actualized. That person is promoting hatred. Okay, so let's go back to number one, right?

[00:26:20] We can't just say number five is wrong in hierarchy of needs. We have to start with one all over again.

[00:26:26] And I believe that the bias begins with the hatred and the hatred is taught. And it's very easy for human beings to turn against human beings because of Mosulist hierarchy of needs not being met.

[00:26:41] It's a simple science for me. That's how I look at it environmentally. And in regards to the character development and morality, the people that actually took positive action to save people in a gen, in a actual

[00:26:58] Genocide situation like the Holocaust. I'm expert in the Holocaust. I'm not going to refer to anyone else's genocide, but we all know many are happening right now.

[00:27:08] But what stops us from being able to get a handle on that genocide behavior is the fact that we allow the bias thought to continue. Because once you have that bias of I'm better than you, I am I and me and us and you are the other.

[00:27:29] There you've just broken the fabric of humanity. You've broken it, and you've torn it, and you've separated it. And now we are no longer as strong as we could be together. So again, why do we do this? Because we can.

[00:27:44] Why should we stop because we get taught that we'll have more if we don't have more right have more of what we want. If we work together, and that's what my how to create piecebook is all about is teaching students how to think through the importance of all five of the concepts I teach in the book, which are pretty consistent with what we want everyone to think

[00:28:11] of. We've got respect, the need for respect for one another, regardless of our history, our hereditary, our families where our families were originated from two or three generations back.

[00:28:24] We've got responsibility that we all hold that if I walk by that ladder and I choose not to say anything. And that man falls and breaks his arm he cannot lay roof anymore he does not working anymore and he's got a family to feed.

[00:28:37] And that child goes to school without food the next week because he didn't make money. You see how it's all connected we are all connected.

[00:28:45] And what if my daughter is the teacher in that son's class and now that sign has become a bully against somebody else.

[00:28:53] So did I affect affect more than just me by not speaking out you betcha I did.

[00:28:58] So that's why teaching how to speak out is so very important and understanding that being an active person a stand upster who chooses not to be a bystander in all these situations can make such a big contribution to our society as a whole.

[00:29:15] And that's number four in my book is what is a contribution and how do we determine who's bringing that contribution together.

[00:29:21] So a number of things that came to my mind as you talk one for example is that kindness breeds kindness. I think I think if you're still unkind and if you are nasty chances are the people that you're dealing with even if they were willing to bring you into the world.

[00:29:51] And if they are into their fold the will in fact begin pushing you away.

[00:29:57] So my feeling essentially is a kindness breeds kindness it's replicates.

[00:30:06] A natural kindness may actually replicate so that it ends up being a million, million fold reproduced.

[00:30:16] So it's a verbal effect verbal effect and then that effect again kindness and respect go hand in hand you can't be kind to someone you don't respect.

[00:30:26] Another thing which I think is I think is really important too is not to blame those who do not have and those who have difficulties not to blame them for the results of their difficulties.

[00:30:40] In other words I mean beginning to understand where this person is coming from and appreciating the difficulty that person has had in their lives and somehow correlate and to sort of see the relationship between their lives and where they came from.

[00:31:03] Because I think if you do that you know then you may be able to help them a little bit a bit more than if you begin blaming them.

[00:31:13] You connect with your compassion and your willingness to connect with another human being and again you just said it beautifully that is part of Mosul's hierarchy of needs as well is to have those connections made.

[00:31:26] But so often we're reacting instead of responding because of our history because of our mental health or lack thereof because of our IQ and our EQ our intellectual and emotional quotient of how well we are able to handle life's difficulties

[00:31:46] and how much knowledge do we have about what kind of resources are available for us and I think that really comes back down to what do we do as a society together to make these connections more valid.

[00:32:00] Some people go about that through religion some people go about that in social work.

[00:32:07] Some people go about that in getting a group together and cross all barriers that they can and those nonprofits are usually doing the most good.

[00:32:16] So you're absolutely right it has to be one of our focuses and compassion is very important. Absolutely.

[00:32:22] That's the only way we can choose to look past our stereotypes in our minds and past our own biases and look at another human being as they are right there in front of us with the understanding that their life is valuable all by itself just as it is right now.

[00:32:39] Very interesting point about us human beings and the society in general.

[00:32:43] In general it means the pursuit of happiness and what else you're talking about freedom and the pursuit of happiness all men are created equal and they are the right to pursue happiness.

[00:33:00] I think that I want to come from the beginning of the being of the constitution today. The way we can increase this thing we call happiness among ourselves.

[00:33:14] I think it's being proven more and more by science and by different experiments is by us being engaged and involved in others.

[00:33:26] Yes.

[00:33:28] So you are not going to be happy and you're not going to live a very long, long life if you are solitary.

[00:33:35] Right.

[00:33:36] But if you stay in a room all by yourself and your grumpy old young person or whatever chances that you're going to die you're going to die a grumpy young person.

[00:33:49] Happiness comes in other words happiness comes in the company of others.

[00:33:56] Yes.

[00:33:57] And the point I'm trying to get at is that really we should all be trying to establish friendships and these friendships I mean need or should somehow traverse our societal niche for example.

[00:34:20] So you know so friendships across race, across religions, across you know regional differences.

[00:34:30] You know and I think we should all aim at that and try to do the best that we can to us to become more friendly with each other.

[00:34:40] I agree.

[00:34:42] I agree.

[00:34:44] In fact in one of our older educational panels we've had with coalition against global genocide was what if democracy fails and I was on a panel with Jim Wilder, Dr. Jim Wilder and he spoke on the psychology behind enemy mode and how so many humans operate on the false belief that everyone's against me

[00:35:08] and I must get my pursuit of happiness first.

[00:35:13] And that is not how we connect with each other and make meaningful relationships and when you're relational, you can't be an enemy mode.

[00:35:22] When you're in enemy mode, you can't be relational.

[00:35:25] So we must attack this enemy mode which is the biases we were talking about earlier.

[00:35:29] You must attack and break down how unfair and how unequitable these biases actually are because we are needing to look at what everyone needs.

[00:35:42] And I often talk about bicycles when I'm talking to children, if everyone got given a swim bike 16 inch seat, not everyone would be able to ride it.

[00:35:53] But you gave everyone the bike which made it all equal and that's not good.

[00:35:58] We need it to be equitable.

[00:36:00] Equitable is so much more important because then everyone gets their needs met and that's so important because we have so many people with this understanding that happiness equals equality and it is not.

[00:36:14] It's got to be equitable so that if one in a wheelchair can't ride the bike, they get the other bike that's used with the hand pedals, right?

[00:36:23] But a bike that's equitable for their situation.

[00:36:29] Although, if you want to say again, when we live in a capitalistic society, our capitalistic model forces us to squat each other's eyes out.

[00:36:49] To get as much as we can in competition to the other.

[00:36:58] But then I think capitalism is a good idea, yes.

[00:37:05] But I think we have to try and make it into a toxic capitalism because it can be toxic.

[00:37:13] I think it is toxic for two or three human beings to have more than 70 or 80% of humanity.

[00:37:22] That means toxic.

[00:37:24] I agree, I agree.

[00:37:26] In fact, I believe we all must change.

[00:37:29] We must change our viewpoint.

[00:37:31] We must grow and evolve.

[00:37:32] We must understand how things that may not seemingly affect you so you discount it actually is affecting a lot of other people.

[00:37:43] So you must have a broader view.

[00:37:45] We must reform the way we think and be willing to modify our expectations because it's those things that get us in trouble.

[00:37:55] Being able to think in a different way, like I said earlier, not from our lizard brain but from a higher level of thinking, a critical thinking at mass where we can think not just what could possibly go wrong for me if I do this,

[00:38:10] but what could possibly go wrong for everyone and also the possibility of life if we do this more often than our character in thought instead of just capitalism as the evolutionary thought of how America runs.

[00:38:30] It's interesting to me when I was sharing earlier about the duty to assist law has not gotten a very big stance here in America because it puts somebody out.

[00:38:43] You have to be willing to be put out to help someone else and that's just not a knee-jerk human reaction.

[00:38:49] A knee-jerk human reaction is to remain safe.

[00:38:52] Safe and secure is much more important than heroism.

[00:38:55] And I personally, if I was in the Holocaust, I know we discussed this a lot in theory.

[00:39:02] If you were living then and you saw your neighbors being drug out of their apartments or homes because the Hitler of that time decided those people were no longer people.

[00:39:13] We're propagandized as inhumane or inhuman.

[00:39:18] Then it becomes okay that those people get drug out.

[00:39:22] But what we need to remember is when I said earlier, we are all the same human species.

[00:39:27] There is no difference and that needs to be educated upon so that we can break these biases and these stereotypes of you're different than me and therefore it's us against them.

[00:39:38] This us against them which is non-relationable, non-compassionate but rather very eye and me focused.

[00:39:47] And I know we talk about this a lot, the ego right?

[00:39:51] That's part of Mosleau's hierarchy of needs also is that you get all you need and you begin to have your self-esteem in place because you have your job, you have your home,

[00:40:00] you have economic ways to give a life, provide for your family.

[00:40:06] Ego starts to grow and for those that say ego stands for edging, got out of our lives.

[00:40:13] And I don't mean religion, I'm preaching a higher being, a higher self for us all to treat each other better because we are all one.

[00:40:22] If we can keep going back to that original comment of we're one species, we are one group.

[00:40:27] It doesn't matter where we originate, it doesn't matter if we're going like you sell, if we cut, we bleed and we all bleed red.

[00:40:35] So we really need to have that evolution happen so we can be all working on the same doctrine.

[00:40:41] You've mentioned a number of times how we raise our children when we are young.

[00:40:48] Do you think this should be a way of standardizing how we raise our children?

[00:40:54] What do you think about that?

[00:40:55] We're not interested in America, right? Because we are all able to be in different positions.

[00:41:01] We're allowed to not like each other. We're allowed to not agree with each other.

[00:41:06] I personally would never want to push my parenting skills on somebody else and require them to do it just like I did.

[00:41:14] And I would want to preface that with the good things I did.

[00:41:18] Right, I'm human, I made mistakes too.

[00:41:19] But ultimately when I wrote this book How to Create Peace for elementary school students,

[00:41:25] it's designed to help grow their minds and their character and the way they believe in themselves

[00:41:32] and how they pick their social morality.

[00:41:36] How do they select it? Do they select it based on my best friend in my class?

[00:41:41] Where's the nicest and most highly looked upon clothing from the highest cost

[00:41:47] with someone else's name on it because they're promoting a brand?

[00:41:52] Or do we look at, I want to be like my classmate who is the most caring, the most charismatic,

[00:41:57] most compassionate doing the most for the most people.

[00:42:01] And how do we teach for them to do the latter?

[00:42:04] How do we make that value stick out?

[00:42:07] And that's why I wrote a study guide in the back of the book giving a number of additional examples per age group

[00:42:12] to help these students get that, to understand how important that is.

[00:42:18] That whether you like Argyle socks or not, right?

[00:42:22] I don't have a chance nor do I want to require myself to judge you for those choices.

[00:42:27] But those choices shouldn't impede my ability to get breakfast, right?

[00:42:32] Going back to our arsonist needs.

[00:42:35] We'll have to think about somehow.

[00:42:36] Which essentially brings me back to the concept of the friends that we have.

[00:42:46] Because it is in groups of friends and friendships that people discuss what they're doing and how they're doing those things.

[00:42:56] If we can consider a village like Aurora for example or Liguton for example,

[00:43:10] the ability to somehow have an open discussion, honest discussions about what is good for that particular community.

[00:43:23] And then of course without others, some bullying other people.

[00:43:29] Because there's a lot of bullying that goes on.

[00:43:32] It seems to me in our society over the last eight years, there has been a tremendous amount of bullying.

[00:43:42] It's forcing people to sort of throw some strange line.

[00:43:48] Yes.

[00:43:49] Well, which is unfortunate. It's unfortunate and not for good either.

[00:43:56] You know?

[00:43:58] The reason I'm thinking about how to raise our children is because the amount of education that both children receive,

[00:44:11] both education also determines what society they create.

[00:44:17] Agreed.

[00:44:19] You know? I mean if I have children go to school, they learn how to read and write and do mathematics.

[00:44:29] By the time they get to high school, they are ready to go to university and become doctors etc.

[00:44:38] So in other words, somehow if we can teach our parents how to parent, you know?

[00:44:48] I mean you're pregnant now. You're going to have a child.

[00:44:53] This is how we think you should maybe raise a child to be healthy.

[00:45:00] But let's begin reading to them, talking to them.

[00:45:05] Positive reinforcement instead of threats and fear.

[00:45:11] Yes, those are all very important but we aren't going to be able to start in the school district taking the children out of it

[00:45:21] and starting with the parents because parents don't really have the resources they need to be able to do that.

[00:45:27] Many people don't have parents or aunts or uncles or extended family that help them have their own familial village.

[00:45:36] So we do have a difference in society as well where people get jobs across state lines, across the country

[00:45:45] and so we're not watching the Smiths and the Jones grow up in the same side of town anymore

[00:45:50] and they just repopulate it as people die, another one's born and that area remains Smiths and Jones.

[00:45:58] It continues to migrate everywhere so we have to really hope for the future always in my world

[00:46:05] has always been in education with the students.

[00:46:08] Students start to think and question their parents.

[00:46:11] I taught kindergarten and fourth grade just as my past history for about a decade

[00:46:16] and the fourth graders were already questioning their parents and the decisions

[00:46:22] and the goals that the parents were teaching those kids, nine and ten year olds.

[00:46:27] That was back in the 80s. Today it's kindergarten first grade where those children are questioning their parents.

[00:46:34] Is that a good thing?

[00:46:36] Yes, exceptionally good because we want them to be critical thinkers.

[00:46:40] We want them to think with morals and character as part of the reason why

[00:46:44] which is why my book, I say on my book it's for parents and mentors and teachers

[00:46:51] because sometimes it's a mentor that helps teach an educated child, not the parent and not the teacher.

[00:46:58] You can get me on a whole other podcast on education today

[00:47:02] but I really feel that we are missing the boat when we focus on teaching to the test

[00:47:07] because someone came out with the standardized test that everyone should reach.

[00:47:10] With that said, we are way trailing behind on both reading, writing and arithmetic.

[00:47:17] So we have a lot of problems to address in the educational system.

[00:47:20] Behind who?

[00:47:23] The world. The world at large. Other countries. It's sad.

[00:47:29] I don't mean to point a finger after I left the lineup.

[00:47:34] I used to teach so I know how important it is to have a standard to work towards.

[00:47:40] But obviously there's many people out there that want to see things get better

[00:47:45] and that's part of what we're talking about today is how do we make these things better?

[00:47:49] And I think it goes back to how do people relate to each other?

[00:47:55] How do we make those villages stronger like you said?

[00:47:58] I love it when we have nonprofits that focus on the community that they are in

[00:48:04] not nonprofits that focus on a different country or a different location straight across the country.

[00:48:10] They should really be focused on their location first and then when there's extra they can go outside of that boundary

[00:48:17] because if we're really trying to make a better world, we're trying to improve our human existence.

[00:48:23] We have to do it in the groups we live in because those groups become very empowered when they work together for equity and best benefits.

[00:48:33] So I think it's empowering to think about how we break that down, how do we break down, how do we teach that?

[00:48:41] And ultimately that's but the biggest plan I have is to have no more genocides, to have no more hatred

[00:48:53] and we have to actually first recognize that everyone has a place, everyone has a piece of the puzzle.

[00:48:59] We are all part of this beautiful intricate quilt that needs to be sewn together to actually create warmth over the entire area

[00:49:08] and we have to take responsibility for each of our own sewing right?

[00:49:13] It's not just the rising up of the roof with you know 14 people it's how many people can we get over here to do it all at once working together

[00:49:23] and we can get our house next and do it with you.

[00:49:26] I love how Tim Wilder said that and I know he's not the only one that said this but in our programming he said

[00:49:33] if we could just value, respect and hold dear and protect our girls

[00:49:40] we would find our entire society bettered for it because the girls become women

[00:49:47] and the girls are the ones first attaching debt to children and they are the ones that are growing the next part of our society.

[00:50:00] If they feel insecure, not safe, violated regularly and not treated with respect and dignity without passion, compassion

[00:50:10] and with the understanding that we still live in a very rape violence society

[00:50:16] where people are doing this to each other all the time, it really holds us back from being our best selves

[00:50:24] and that is where we know scientifically the best economic positive growth happens

[00:50:31] not capitalism but economic growth that happens in different countries where the groups are at their lowest stage

[00:50:38] maybe even a third world country, he has documented that when the girls are valued

[00:50:44] and that community really uplifts the women that that entire community thrives because of it.

[00:50:50] So what did you learn in America about that?

[00:50:53] It's interesting when you brought up that concept

[00:50:58] I began thinking of a man by the name of Muhammad Yunis

[00:51:04] where you lend a small amount of money to communities of women

[00:51:14] and they do extremely well

[00:51:20] You don't really require huge amounts of money for a group of people to do well

[00:51:26] Michael is the so-called micro credit movement

[00:51:33] but the other point I wanted to bring was that it is important to think that when one group does well

[00:51:46] it should also try and somehow help other groups to also do well

[00:51:51] In other words, by imprisoning a whole bunch of people and putting them in jail

[00:51:59] and by not allowing groups of people not to get an education for example

[00:52:07] not to have good income, good lives

[00:52:14] it lowers all of us

[00:52:17] The whole of society is in fact way down than if we had done the opposite

[00:52:26] which essentially helps everybody to rise

[00:52:31] I think you said it before, help everybody to rise

[00:52:36] the American Indian, the black person wherever it is

[00:52:40] If you can help all of our society to rise then we will have a better America in fact

[00:52:48] We are very aware, that's absolutely true

[00:52:51] We have a better America, we are going to have a better world also

[00:52:55] Yes

[00:52:57] Because we are all together

[00:52:59] Yes, I agree and people want to follow leaders who are doing good

[00:53:04] So when we do good we do better, right?

[00:53:07] One would hope, one would hope

[00:53:10] Unless you begin sort of indoctrinating people's minds

[00:53:17] If you whitewash people's minds

[00:53:22] that's what Hitler did in fact

[00:53:26] Hitler and his group took one of the most advanced nations

[00:53:33] Some of the best brains of the human race at that particular moment

[00:53:43] and converted them into killers

[00:53:48] Murderers, yes

[00:53:50] Arrogance, you know

[00:53:52] So we have to be a thinker on the lookout for that kind of thing

[00:53:57] and be very aware

[00:53:58] That's why I love the duty to assist law

[00:54:03] It's beginning in a civility area where we all follow these laws

[00:54:08] and we want to follow these laws because it makes us better

[00:54:13] I heard a comedian a number of weeks ago say

[00:54:16] I'm from ex-country

[00:54:19] and people say oh you must have loved the freedom, you didn't have a government that was making you pay taxes

[00:54:25] and he said you know, you're right the government didn't make us pay taxes

[00:54:30] the government didn't protect me from the CPA that was running down the hallway with a gun either

[00:54:36] I prefer America with all the rules and regulations where I can walk the streets safe

[00:54:41] That I thought to myself I know he was a comedian but the good comedians speak truth, right?

[00:54:47] That's why they're so funny

[00:54:49] And I remember thinking I hope that got through the entire audience

[00:54:54] and I agree we have these laws and we have these regulations

[00:54:58] and when they are properly written with the correct verbiage

[00:55:02] it can affect everyone in a positive way

[00:55:04] Yes, yes

[00:55:06] Well I think we're getting to a point where we should be thinking about moving on

[00:55:13] but let's talk for a moment about the coalition against the global genocide

[00:55:21] how we can allow that bird to spread its wings

[00:55:34] I mean do you have any ideas or thoughts I wonder?

[00:55:38] Yes, I believe fullheartedly in the coalition against global genocide

[00:55:43] that's why I'm on the board and part of the educational committee

[00:55:47] and one of the speakers they give out for the speakers bureau

[00:55:50] but part of what the coalition stands for

[00:55:54] and Roz Duman has been an amazing leader for us

[00:55:58] is that action is the underlying of everything that we stand for

[00:56:03] We don't just speak, we take action

[00:56:05] we didn't just talk about the importance of the education

[00:56:08] and lessons that we could gain from the Holocaust

[00:56:10] we made sure it was mandated in the state of Colorado

[00:56:14] to mandate education from the Holocaust and genocide

[00:56:18] so that we could maybe grow a new group of humans

[00:56:21] that actually won't stand for biases that lead to hatred

[00:56:25] So ultimately we've taken action and that's what we continue to do

[00:56:30] It makes me very proud to be along to such a wonderful organization

[00:56:34] because you have to be educated on the social issues of today

[00:56:37] to be able to discern what you're spending your energy on

[00:56:42] If your head's in the sand and you're missing the point

[00:56:45] you're not going to be helping anything

[00:56:47] And so that's one thing I really talk about when I speak to college student level age adults

[00:56:54] is how important their vote matters

[00:56:57] And if they don't know how to vote

[00:56:59] and they don't want to just follow maybe their parental decisions

[00:57:03] they want to learn themselves

[00:57:06] They have to be very, very educated

[00:57:08] willing to get educated and research what they're voting for

[00:57:12] and who they're voting for

[00:57:14] and what those persons stand for

[00:57:16] so that they are actually voting in someone that they could follow

[00:57:20] And I think those types of decisions become very, very important

[00:57:24] as we get closer to our next presidential election

[00:57:28] If you want to get involved

[00:57:30] there are many different organizations that help get the word out to vote

[00:57:33] and they don't necessarily dissuade one side or another

[00:57:36] one candidate over another

[00:57:38] but rather to take the action of the voting in the first place

[00:57:42] And most humans won't do that unless they know who

[00:57:45] or rather which team they're behind

[00:57:48] So they have to get more educated to do that

[00:57:51] And I think that's really a powerful position to

[00:57:54] to consider that coag coalition against global genocide is focused on

[00:58:00] on empowering others to make good decisions

[00:58:03] I think what you're saying really is that

[00:58:08] maybe some of us feel sort of kind of

[00:58:13] I don't have much power

[00:58:17] or I don't have much, I don't have, you know

[00:58:21] I cannot change the way things are

[00:58:24] But there is one thing that we do all have

[00:58:28] which is the vote

[00:58:29] to be able to decide and to understand who

[00:58:36] you know the issues are

[00:58:38] and who is going to really help, you know

[00:58:43] help advance the goodness of the arts

[00:58:49] of the human race, etc

[00:58:52] But you have to understand who to vote for

[00:58:55] and then actually do it

[00:59:00] not just think it but do it also

[00:59:04] Absolutely, follow through

[00:59:06] Exactly, exactly

[00:59:08] I think this is a very nice conversation with you

[00:59:12] and I've learned a whole bunch of stuff

[00:59:15] You know

[00:59:17] Well my pleasure Pius, I love what you've contributed to coag as well

[00:59:21] I love the fact that you're involved

[00:59:22] and I was very honored when you asked me

[00:59:25] so thank you for allowing me to pledge to speak with you today

[00:59:28] And to thank you so much

[00:59:30] The Never Again podcast is presented by

[00:59:36] The Coalition Against Global Genocide

[00:59:39] and its mission to educate, motivate and empower

[00:59:42] individuals and communities to oppose genocide

[00:59:45] and crimes against humanity