Nicholas Jamerson: Kentucky Songbird

[00:00:08] Nicholas Jamerson, welcome to Whiskey Riff Raff. Nicholas Jamerson, thanks for having me. This isn't your first time. You've definitely talked to our boss, Stephen West, before. Nicholas Jamerson, Yeah, I think it was on the side of a highway. I think during the pandemic. I believe Wes told me that at one point you had to drive to the top of the holler to get better service. It was something like that. Nicholas Jamerson, Yeah. So that's pretty cool. I mean, you know, I think with that episode, we got an insight into maybe life in Eastern Kentucky. Today, we're in Nashville, but

[00:00:38] I'm sure we'll obviously talk a lot about Eastern Kentucky and the Appalachia sound that you have. Nicholas Jamerson, Yeah. Nicholas Jamerson, Yeah. I guess we can start there. Nicholas Jamerson, Yeah. I mean, Quinn's also from Kentucky, so you guys have a lot to talk about. Nicholas Jamerson, Okay. Nicholas Jamerson, Far west part of the state. Nicholas Jamerson, Okay. Nicholas Jamerson, So it's a, I mean, it's a big state. Nicholas Jamerson, It is. Nicholas Jamerson, A lot of differences from the listening east. Nicholas Jamerson, It really is. Nicholas Jamerson, But I guess for people that are listening that maybe aren't familiar with the culture of Eastern Kentucky, how would you best describe that? Nicholas Jamerson, Slow, Quiet.

[00:01:08] Nicholas Jamerson, It's pretty isolated from even each other. Nicholas Jamerson, You know, I think that neighbors, I mean, there's obviously places that people are on top of each other in like normal neighborhoods, but like where I live, like it's a little more spread out and people tend to keep to themselves. Nicholas Jamerson, It's very much driven by, I always say like the social ecosystem there is like with kids and sports and school stuff.

[00:01:35] And I have two kids and my five and a half year old, we're just starting to get into the sports stuff. So I feel like I'm, I'm experiencing this whole like new version of, of it, you know, because this sort of lifestyle of on the road and not a lot of people doing that there, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But music, music has always been like a really big thing there. Like there's such a rich history

[00:02:00] and tradition there of, um, just monster musicians, even those that people don't know, but, uh, just playing in church and, um, but. Now where you're from, how far is that from where Laurel Cove is? I am about two and a half hours east. Okay. About northeast. I live off of, um,

[00:02:27] U S 23, which is considered the country music highway is what that's called. So I'm like in Loretta Lynn, Chris Stapleton, Dwight Yoakam, that whole area. Yeah. Um, Laurel Cove, I always tell Quinn, I'm like, it's a must do experience. Definitely. Yes. And I like cannot rave about John Grace anymore. And I've seen you perform there, seen your wife perform there as well. Um, your wife also does music. That's my sister. Oh, your sister.

[00:02:56] I thought it was your wife. Yeah, no, it's my sister. Oh my goodness. Okay. Glad that we shared that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of jokes that could be made there, but I won't do it. I won't do it. I won't do it. I know. Yeah. John has been so good. It's, it's like just building stages for people to play on. And that, that area in that space in particular is just so, um, it's just like, I've heard people call it like a mini red rocks, you know, just built into the earth and there's such a respect

[00:03:26] for, I feel like the musicians and the craft of it all. And it's such a, just an uplifting experience that they've, you know, curated out there. So. With your sister making music as well then, then you definitely come from a musical family. Oh yeah. Yes. I grew up, like we grew up in church playing and singing. Mom had us in piano lessons and all that stuff. But, uh, my grandparents, like a big part of the social

[00:03:54] scene was just people gathering in, in the living room and playing music. And those are like my earliest memories where we're being around, you know, people just the old timers playing standards and hymns and things like that. So, uh, I saw some videos recently that we'd uncovered just video stuff. And I was seeing those days and me being little, like in the middle of it, playing harmonica and like, okay, maybe I was, maybe I was born to do this really.

[00:04:25] Yeah. I think I saw one of those videos that you posted on social media where I think you were singing gospel at church. Yeah. How old would you have been in that video? Do you know? Uh, nine, maybe eight, eight or nine. And that was like your first taste of getting up in front of people besides maybe, you know, like the living room. Yeah. Things like that. Definitely. Definitely. And I, there was a lot of fighting it early on because we were always in church and that was just like a natural thing to put us in, in choir and those type of things.

[00:04:53] But yeah, about eight or nine is when I was like, okay, I really like singing and this is, this is fun. Are you the type of person, like, do you, do you look back at that video and you, you're comforted by it? Or do you look back at it and be like, Ooh, I should have done this differently? I'm comforted. I'm actually like, I wish I could be more like that, that kid. Cause I felt like I was there's obviously a window. I think, you know, you get into your team and maybe a little more

[00:05:18] self-conscious, but in those moments it was just like so free and just like cutting vocal. And I think the older you get as a performer, sometimes it gets harder because you're just more aware. And at that time I was just, you know, in church itself, you know, just the spirit of that, instead of just praise and worship, you know, not thinking about anything else. It's like, maybe I should be more like you, you know, that little kid. So.

[00:05:44] I feel like a lot of your music, you can feel the Kentucky and you can feel the gospel in it. You also talk, I feel like about, or sing about a lot of darker matters that come with the Appalachian Mountains. How much of that is autobiographical and how much is that is just like storytelling or pretending to be? It's a little bit of both. You know, I think I always reserve the right in songs to

[00:06:11] to, to have fiction, but I think it needs to be, it's usually based on something real, you know, and emotionally anyway. But I mean, a lot of it. Yeah. I mean, it's like, yeah, it's a mix of both. This is a, this might be a weird thing to say, but I mean, this is a compliment. Okay. And I think there's an old baseball quote that an announcer, a broadcaster used. And he said that

[00:06:40] to call games, he just kept his eyes open and told the truth. And I feel like you do a great job of that with your songwriting and your songs in general. I appreciate that. I think. I'm glad it came off as. Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah. I get what you're saying. Cause I, you know, I, I teach a lot of workshops and that's one thing that I always try to tell people is that at the end of the day, you just need to like write the song that's in front of you. And it's,

[00:07:09] it can just be observational of what's happening. And I think so many people want to be poetic and profound, but I think, yeah, sometimes just the most profound stuff is just simply what's, what's happening right in front of you. And so I appreciate you saying that. Yeah. That's, that's just try to keep it simple and do that. Well, yeah. And it's, it's, I think oftentimes songwriters find the best stuff whenever they

[00:07:36] are just like, Oh, this is, I accidentally kept this simple. And now it, it, maybe it even turns into something that's more complex than you intended it to. But like, I was like, again, with these songwriter workshops, it's like, we're always like trying to, it's like idea generators. So it's just like, kind of gets the ball rolling. And then once, once it starts to unfold in front of you, then yeah, play with it. And maybe, maybe there is something made up, you know, and the storytelling in it. But, um,

[00:08:05] And where are you teaching these songwriter workshops at? Um, well, we started a nonprofit last year, Sleeping in the Woods, a music festival in Monticello, Kentucky. So I've taught there. Uh, usually every year we have one, we have a songwriter, um, workshop element to the programming. Um, and then I recently taught at the Heinemann Settlement School. They had a Heinemann, uh, songwriter retreat weekend in Heinemann, Kentucky.

[00:08:35] Um, and then just a lot of one-on-one stuff. Like, I feel like I have a bunch of little songwriter students everywhere and, um, yeah, and, and just really wherever I can. So what's the best piece of advice that you feel like other than maybe just telling the truth and keep things simple that you give to the people that are, uh, you're teaching? Um, don't be afraid to write a bad song.

[00:09:01] Like, let that go. Cause if you do, like, I feel like good and bad is so subjective. And I heard someone say that trying to write something good can get in the way of writing something great. And, uh, you'll just write another song. Like there's always another song to be written. And I mean, I was having to tell myself that today, like I said before we came on, like writing,

[00:09:26] co-writing with somebody and there's this pressure because I, I would, John and I were talking about that earlier, my manager about how I feel like I, uh, Nashville, like there's sometimes this pressure and I think it's, it's just the creative energy here. And, and obviously I, like we went to the coffee shop earlier and I was like, who's here? You know, it was like always that thing,

[00:09:53] like when you're younger of like, who's here? Like anybody could be here. And I've been to just about every major city and I never think that I was like, I need to let this go. Like, this isn't just music people here. This is every, you know, just all kinds of people, you know? Um, so yeah, I'm always having to remind myself, like, I don't need to have that pressure and just write the song. And, uh, yeah, if it sucks, then, then it becomes more just about the time spent, you know, it's not

[00:10:23] even about the song itself. It's just like, well, me and Megan being wrote that song and that's just what it was. So, um, I think that we can just hold on to, I don't know, just, just cling too tightly to, to songs and it's, it's just music, you know? I would imagine that songs would come easier in places that you feel more home, like you're, you're, you're more at home in. Yeah. So writing in Eastern

[00:10:51] Kentucky versus writing in Nashville, there's probably a big gap there, right? Well, you're just like, yeah, you're dealing with this whole other sensory thing of like safe. Am I safe? You know, like just, you know, just sort of subconsciously, like I'm not thinking about those kinds of things at home, but, but the older I've gotten, then, I mean, I, I do, there is something inspiring about

[00:11:17] being here. You know, there is such a rich history here and I can relate to so many people, so many more people on a different level here. And it's like you're chasing this, this, you know, you're just chasing, everybody's chasing this. Maybe it's this thing that doesn't even exist, but it's at least like you can rally around the pursuit of it. And there's comfort in that for me of like, just

[00:11:43] people of the, like friends of the road that can relate and the love of song and the creation of song. So, um, but definitely when I was younger, it was definitely harder to just relax enough to just let it happen, you know? And to give people some insight, how about, what is the percentage of songs that you write, do you actually put out? Because we've, I feel like we've talked to people

[00:12:11] at very different ends of the spectrum. And I feel like that also like is an idea of, you know, writing bad songs. Yeah, I don't know. You know, I've had, I have put a lot of music. Um, I don't know, like the last three years or so I've written a song a week.

[00:12:32] That's a lot. So, you know, I'm, I guess I'm, that's, that's 150 songs. I'm about to put out 15, you know? So, so I'm just get lost in the shuffle. Now tell us about this new EP that's about to be released, or I guess by the time this comes out, it will have been released. Rabbit holes. Yeah. I just, I feel like I've been, in terms of like the music that I've put out, it's just been like

[00:13:02] this really personal, um, just like heavy. The last record was very heavy. And you get to the end of the cycle and I'm just been kind of sick of it, you know, sick of myself, sick of my feelings, sick of these stories. And, um, I just wanted to make something that I wasn't so attached to.

[00:13:30] Um, so I went in the studio, uh, in Prestonsburg and we just took one day and I had just been like going through all these songs that I'd been writing the last three years. And it was as simple as, well, which ones do I like singing the best? And which sounds like such an obvious thing, like, like for choosing songs. But I think I just felt like I'd had so much to say the last 10 years that

[00:13:57] it was more about like what I was saying than, than anything else. And, uh, just being on the other side of it, I just, I just wanted to play songs that I loved and it didn't matter as much what the theme was as much as it was like, yeah, is it fun to sing? So, um, yeah, I mean, and I love the songs, you know, but it's just not as, I don't know. It's just like, uh, the sort of concept of

[00:14:27] rabbit hole is just like, you know, a train of thought. It's just like, yeah, this is just a three and a half to four minute train of thought. And there's, you know, it'll mean something. They mean something, but it's just not as thematic as, as the other projects that I've been doing the last couple of years. So. Yeah. And it's titled rabbit holes volume one. Yeah. So that implies more. There'll be a volume two. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Is that like something that you planned out or is it whenever you were doing it, you were like, you know what,

[00:14:56] I actually enjoy this process. I'm going to do this again. Um, you know, there's, there's, if it was up to me entirely in the moment, I would have just released it all at once, management and the industry that we live in just, and just, just trying to give the songs their time in the light. You know, we live in such a short attention span society that songs can just get lost if you put them all out and.

[00:15:26] Or if you bury one down in the bottom of an album. Yeah. Yeah. That's what, yeah, exactly. So, um, just trying to, you know, spread it out and take our time and, uh, just get, get the songs heard. We have a kind of a, you know, a special advantage of watching artists in their career, but I feel like even fans can probably notice that there's like a different synergy around your

[00:15:51] career at the moment where, you know, you're about to open up for Charles Wessler Godwin or Flora is out on the road. What has changed in your career? Is it the management? Is it just wanting to tour more? Is it just. I think it's a little bit of both. Okay. Just the right timing. I think that, um, you know, with these last couple of records, I feel like I was just having to get myself right. You know, it's like I needed to get my spirit right more than anything and,

[00:16:19] um, started a family and just the foundational, these foundational things that I feel like I need to have to be able to go out into the world and, and do these things and just greater, basically continuing to find my purpose for why I'm doing it in the first place. I've just feel like I've done it for so long and I've, I've been able to do more than I ever thought. And not that you get numb to it, but you kind of get numb to the things and you just need to like,

[00:16:49] I feel like I needed to like step out of the rat race, so to speak. Um, and yeah, management and different booking agents and all those things. It, it, it, it's, it takes it, you know, it just takes a huge team. I feel like to make things run, um, in a way that makes it sustainable.

[00:17:15] So I felt like, yeah, I just feel like it's just a conscious, it's just the time, I guess. Yeah. I think on social media, you describe yourself as being on a God driven journey of meaning and connection. And I think whenever someone reads that, they might think that they understand what you mean by that, but, but just in case like what, what is that, uh, that journey of searching for meaning and connection, because that's obviously, I feel like great goals to have

[00:17:41] as an artist rather than, you know, you having some sort of monetary. Right. Yeah. It's like process driven, you know, it's like, it's not product driven and, and it's like, you know, we, we play these shows and that's like the vessel that leads us there. But what, what, what, what, what, what good are we doing with basically that energy that we're, you know, conjuring up basically with,

[00:18:06] with people gathering. And even if it's just like taking time to, with people in the band, you know, of like the things that they're going through and, and just what's brought us together and helping, helping them through life. Like we're, there's two other dads in the band and, and just having that sort of fellowship of that experience, you know, it's pretty like niche to

[00:18:36] like be a dad and be a touring musician. Like there's not a huge, at least where I live, like a huge community of people that are doing that. So just being more conscious with time and finding like that there's purpose and meaning in, in all the interactions. And that I think we can, I have definitely been guilty of these ideas of grandiose change and all these, the social,

[00:19:03] cultural issues that we go, you know, that are just dominating headlines that do need to change. Change. But at the same time, like small change, like in their everyday to day life can like really make a huge difference. And it, it ripples, you know, it's like the people that we will go and talk to after today, like in a month, how many people will we come across, you know? And so just,

[00:19:30] just kind of taking a step back and like really just trying to do the best with each interaction we can with, with each other. And, um, you know, my, so much of the last 10 years has been like my relationship with God and sort of deconstructing what I was taught versus what I believe and what I've experienced. And there's so many people that I think are having the same questions and going

[00:19:59] through the same process. I think it's such a normal part of growing up and sort of the rose colored glasses are taken off and then, uh, you know, then what? Right. Yeah. I think one of the, the best things I've heard about, you know, faith is it's okay to believe and still have questions. And it sounds like that's maybe where you were or are or have been.

[00:20:25] And definitely, yeah. Yeah. It felt like it took the pressure off of like having to have all the answers and that my faith was, it's not as flim, it's, it's, it's not flimsy, you know, and the things that God can handle that. Like, I think God wants us to God, if God wants to, you know, I just think, I don't, you know, that's a whole nother rabbit hole, but you know, yeah, it just, I think

[00:20:52] that it, it's like having there instead of just like this dead thing that you, you sort of repeat, it's like there's context and application to it all. And everybody's having a different experience of it. And that just feels, that's just been more powerful for me and an experience to hear people's like living testimonies of it than just like, you know, and some of the verses, they still

[00:21:21] like hit hard, you know, you're like, yeah, dang, you're right. And you mentioned your oldest is five and then you just had your second, correct? Yeah. How has that been having a second versus just one? It's been tough. Yeah. It's been tough. Yeah. But it's been, it's been, it's just like another, the kids just like undo you, you know?

[00:21:49] You're talking to two people who don't have kids yet. Yeah. You know, you get the first one to equilibrium, which I'll say like, get them in school and then you get some room to breathe and you're like, let's do it. It's really insane. You're like, let's just do what we just did. Again. Again. My daughter, my oldest, she like loves her brother and she was like, I feel like she spoke

[00:22:15] it all into existence having him, but she's always been mommy's baby. I mean, she's still mommy's baby, but like, she's not mommy's only baby. So it's, it's been hard for her. So then I, she's been with me and we're very much alike and very, we, we butt heads a lot. Um, but we're getting there. We, she just started kindergarten and that's been a big help

[00:22:45] and, uh, coaching soccer now. And it's, uh, it's good. It's, it's, um, it feels like something really good to be grounded in outside of the, I would say the abstract infant and infinite, uh, nature of the music arts, you know, it's like they don't really care either way. So

[00:23:12] it's, it's like, feels, feels good. I know you said sports are big in Eastern Kentucky as far as like getting people connected. Do you plan? And it sounds like they're involved in sports. Do you plan on doing music as well? Or is that going to be something that you let them kind of find? She's in piano right now, but it's, it's really low key. And I think, uh, I mean, she's always

[00:23:34] around it. I think with me, it's really wild. Like she's already writing songs. Um, just like freestyling off the top of her head. She'll go for like 20 minutes. It's crazy. Some long ones, some long ones. Maybe a jam band, future jam band. She's really in like spooky Halloween theme kind of, kind of stuff. Um, but yeah, I was

[00:23:58] always just, you know, five, their attention span is just very limited. So it's like introducing her to it and like having her be around it. And that's about as far as it goes, you know, that's how it was for me. It was just like, there were instruments around and I got into grade school. My parents were like, you're going to sing in choir. You're going to take

[00:24:23] piano lessons. But the other things just kind of, it was just like in my time, you know? So I, I, that's, that's my hope with all this is just to like, let her lead it. And, you know, I wanted to, I just wanted to enjoy music for music and all the other stuff is, you know, that's a whole different thing. So.

[00:24:47] Now what, if you had to pick one song that like, just like defines or like you think is like representation, represents your life really, really well. What is like the first song that comes to mind? I'm wondering if it's like, you know, your biggest song or is it just like the stage of your life right now? Or you think that'll keep evolving?

[00:25:10] I mean, my initial gut reaction is Heinemann. It's just had such a, like, unique arc, so to speak. My grandmother, Anna, who I mentioned in the song, she just passed away. So it's like, and, and simultaneously I'm, I'm seeing all these just different people singing it. And, uh,

[00:25:39] I don't know, like, it just seems like that song is just hitting me like super hard right now. Like when we play it and people are, are having like a stronger response to it right now. So. I did see all 60, you just played it. Yeah. That, that really struck me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was really well done and, and they did it in Pikeville where I went to college and

[00:26:02] um, it's just funny. I feel like when someone else like that sings one of your songs, like you also immediately get more street cred at home. They're like, you see all 60? I'm like, did you see me do it? You know, you can't get them to listen when you're doing it, but I wrote it. Yeah, I know. It was awesome. It's a great song. But, uh, you know, that, uh,

[00:26:28] and that's just a whole nother, for people that care enough about it to sing it and like to give it a platform that just, that touched me more than anything was just, it's a song I wrote for my grandparents and it inspired someone enough to sing it. And for their 75 to 90 minute window they have with these people for that to be one of the songs. It's just

[00:26:54] like, like when it's done and it's done well, like it's really hard to beat that as a songwriter for someone else to do your song. So I would imagine that would be like the, one of the greater feelings that you can have. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. Cause I didn't have to go and like the song got played, it got shared and I didn't have to leave my couch to do it. So we were talking yesterday with an artist and she was saying, you know, some people

[00:27:20] feel like songwriters first and artists second or vocalists second, some vice versa. But like, it's very clear that you feel like the songwriting is the. Definitely. Definitely. Like the, the songwriting and I would say like recording of it, like the constructing of it. That's probably my, that's like what I feel like I really love the most. And you're obviously very introspective and you mentioned a lot of the music on like your

[00:27:47] last album was, you know, pretty heavy. But another song that comes to mind when I think of you is Linda James, which is like very upbeat, very positive. I feel like it was like the anthem for a while on Instagram. I mean, everyone all over was using it all the time. That's another great one. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's all, that's probably the most successful

[00:28:08] song I've ever had, like in terms of its reach. So yeah, but they're like, they're all like your babies. They're like your kid, you know? So it's hard to. Can't have a favorite. It's hard to. You also strike me as someone who probably isn't on their phone as much as most people.

[00:28:30] I try not to be. But I feel like the nature of everything, I feel like I'm, especially now coaching soccer, I'm like looking at YouTube videos and talking to parents in the group chat and I'm like, I didn't have enough to do. I'm going to coach soccer. Do you give any wisdom through song whenever the team huddles up or?

[00:28:56] We've only had one practice, but I have, like it's four to, it's like mostly four and five year olds. One six year old. And there's a whole. Four and five year olds are known to grasp the concept of soccer. Oh my gosh. It's, it's, it's something else, but I am probably going to take my banjo next week and just to try to get their, keep their attention. Yeah. That's what I was thinking. Like the pot popper. Yeah.

[00:29:26] Banjo on kids. Which, you know, speaking of sports, sports realm of things. And you mentioned earlier that you went to college in Pikeville, college athlete sitting right here in the seat played football. Yes. Okay. So how is it, you know, going from, you know, the college athletic world to the music industry? Because earlier, whenever you were talking about, you know, going from Eastern Kentucky to Nashville for songwriting potentially, in my mind, I immediately thought like there

[00:29:54] was probably maybe a similar thread there of like you going from high school to college football, right? Like you, you're all of a sudden around a lot of other people that are pretty good at this. Yeah. That's pretty, it's pretty a good parallel, I would say. Okay. Um, yeah, it's sports where it was so competitive. Um, obviously industry can be,

[00:30:25] but it's, I don't know, that feels like it bogs it down more than I feel like I was just in an era where we didn't have social media. We didn't have all, we didn't have as much, um, exterior like entertainment, so to speak, you know? Cause I feel like, I mean, I know

[00:30:51] sports are still pretty serious in some circles, but I, I guess I was living and dying in it. Like it was just super serious and super heavy and, um, music, it shouldn't, you know, uh, it is our lively, you know, it is my livelihood, but, um, you know, I don't know if I'm, I'm

[00:31:14] not, I'm not sure if I'm kind of falling off the rails of train of thought here with, with, with this, but. I think I gave you a lot with the question, so I apologize if, if that was a, I just, whenever you said that earlier, that's what I kind of thought. I was like, oh, it kind of similar to going from, you know, a place where you were maybe the one, the one really good to. Definitely. Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Believe it at that. Okay. What position did you play?

[00:31:44] I played wide receiver. Okay. Yeah. And so is that like, do you ever have the inkling to get out in the yard and see if you still got it or? Yeah. Last night at soccer, I was like running from a six-year-old and I was like, man, a six-year-old is fast, faster than I'm willing to run right now. We, we have a, there's a touch football game that has happened for 30 years the day after Thanksgiving. Oh boy. Yeah.

[00:32:14] And I didn't play last year, the year before I played. And that was like the first time that I feel like I had like been able to go and been okay with like not trying as hard as I possibly could because I was like, it's not worth tearing everything. Being so sore the next day you can't walk. Oh yeah. It's a, just can't, can't do that anymore.

[00:32:39] Now coming from Kentucky and having the opportunity to tour everywhere. I know you've been on several tours now. How has your perspective of Kentucky changed or of home changed now getting to see all the other big cities? Hmm. I mean, it's always like a love hate. I think sometimes with,

[00:33:00] with hometowns, um, I appreciate like the simpleness of it. I appreciate the quiet. Um, but you know, sometimes you see how, cause I mean, historically Eastern Kentucky has just sort of been, uh, economically deprived, you know, really, really since the history, since the inception of

[00:33:30] the state, um, and, uh, underappreciated, I think at times by its own people. Like we don't, we don't value what we have. Like we don't always take care of just the land and, you know, historically artists have had to come to Nashville to, to make it, you know, the infrastructure, uh, was, wasn't there.

[00:33:53] And, um, so there's a little bit of like, uh, resentment at times for it just because it's like, we're just kind of getting in our own way sometimes and not helping ourselves. Um, but it's changing, you know, I think the musical landscape has, has changed so much in the last 20 years. And there's so many artists that are coming from Kentucky that are, uh, are, are on the national, you know,

[00:34:24] I don't know this, the, in the scene that things are changing there. And, um, when I think of musicians that are like proud of their state, I think of Texas one, Kentucky two. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, uh, it's a great place. It's, uh, it feels like it's, I don't know about, I feel like it's like the, uh, you were kind of talking about it just being different in Western Kentucky than Eastern

[00:34:51] Kentucky. It's like, it's just like this big soup of different sort of cultures. Like Lexington and Louisville up there. It's like, that's the biggest metropolitan type thing. And then, I mean, but like every, every part of the state's beautiful its own way. It's just very different. Kentucky's like, or like Riley was like Appalachian, you know, like hillbilly. I feel like, like, where do you live in

[00:35:18] Western Kentucky? Near Paducah. Okay. So that's like, you're close to Illinois, right? Well, like I live, I grew up and lived in Benton, which is like 20 minutes kind of East-ish of Paducah, but yeah, close enough to Midwest. Yeah. And then I guess like going farther, like the Mississippi, like the swamp, it gets kind of swampy down there, right? Oh yeah. I mean, that's, that's all kind of,

[00:35:43] that's, that's like five different ecosystems, you know? And it's a long, I remember, uh, you know, having to travel out to Eastern Kentucky from Western Kentucky and it's like, dang, it's five or six hours to get across the state. Yeah. It really is a big state and diverse and, um. Talking to people, do they have any hilarious stereotypes of Kentucky or about like where you come from? Or of course,

[00:36:08] you know, reading and writing and not wearing shoes and intolerant, like where everybody's intolerant there, you know, it's, uh, you know. If people find out I'm from Kentucky, they ask like, oh, you know, how many times have you been to the Kentucky Derby? It's like, I've never been, but people just envision that like every Kentuckian goes there every year, I guess, or something,

[00:36:33] which would be nice, but I just haven't made it there. Have you been to Keeneland? No, I haven't been there either. I have. I like Keeneland better than the Derby. Oh, okay. A little more low key. Yeah. But like kind of the same thing. Mm-hmm. But there's a lot, there's a lot that Kentucky has to offer. It's just, uh, and, and the, the thing being here now in Nashville, I'll say I'm from Western Kentucky and people think Bowling Green, which is not Western Kentucky at all. Yeah. That's what everybody in Eastern Kentucky thinks that Bowling Green is Western

[00:37:02] Kentucky. Yeah. Which I guess in relation to where you all are is, but yeah, I'm like two hours, my hometown's two hours West of Western Kentucky University. How far are you from Henderson? Oh boy. Um, I should know the answer to that question, but my grandfather from there. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a, it, I'm not like, I love Kentucky, but it's definitely just, you know, like, uh, whenever Shelby kind of asked the questions, like go into other places. It's like,

[00:37:29] whoa. Okay. Like you can get a lot of people in Kentucky, I feel like stay for sure where they are. And like I said, there's a charm to that. There is something pure about it. And you know, uh, I love, I live in my hometown, you know, like there's a reason that I, I do that. Like nature, just, just nature and like the sort of solitude from it all is, is so valuable. I just wish that we would take better care of it. And you, your family like has a history, like

[00:37:59] they've all lived in that area and were educators. Is that right? Yeah. Educators and coal miners. Okay. Um, yeah. Three of my grandparents were principals. Oh wow. Gotcha. Dad was a, was a, uh, school teacher. My brother's a school teacher, his wife coach. So yeah. Um, that must be cool. You're getting to do the workshops and stuff where you're, you know, in a way

[00:38:24] educating. Definitely. No, I, I, when I was in college, like my plan was to be a teacher and to coach and, uh, you're doing it. Yeah. I'm doing it. It just wasn't what I thought. Yeah, I know last night I was just like, well, this is really something I've thought about for so long being a head coach. And, but I never thought it would be soccer and, uh, you have to get to teach,

[00:38:52] um, outside of, I always say it's like, I don't obviously, obviously I'll, I'll sort of like to live outside of the box. I don't like to, you know, I was like, I can teach and I don't have to teach at a school, you know? So best of both worlds. What do you watch or listen to or read that kind of

[00:39:13] influences a lot of your music? Um, lately I just read, uh, Clay's Quilt by Silas House and it, if you're not familiar with Silas, Silas, he's a Eastern Kentucky author. And, um, it was just like listening to my grandparents talk and I, but I think it was way better written

[00:39:39] than like, it was just so well written and all these just complete thoughts. I think that sometimes with songwriting, you can just think in like fragments and, uh, it was just so, I mean, it takes place in Eastern Kentucky and that was, that was super inspiring. Um, you know, as far as what I watch, I'm kind of stuck to, uh, children's shows right now.

[00:40:09] It's been good. It's been good. It's like, it's, it's like there's, there's so many simple truths in those, those shows and it's, it's got me out of being so introspective and just like, just, just write the simple thing that's accessible to people. Fundamentals. Yes. It's, it's, and it feels like such a relief, you know, I had to go through all that stuff to like know that,

[00:40:33] but, um, is it, and are you showing her any of like your favorites or is it kind of all new stuff? Oh, it's mainly our favorites. Okay. Yeah. When we can, but there's good stuff coming out. Um, I know Bluey's big. Yeah. Yeah. My nephew's all over Bluey. We love Bluey in our house. Um, you know, that's true. Like I've watched Bluey before and I got it. Like I look up and he's,

[00:41:02] my nephew's not even watching anymore. I'm, I'm, Oh yeah. No, it's shoot. Yeah. There's definitely things in those that there it's for the parents. Um, obviously all the, all the toy stories. Um, but we try to go back and find obscure things that like, you, that, you know, early on land before Tom, that's what, that's one. Um, it's a mixed bag.

[00:41:30] Mm-hmm. And I know you've been quoted and saying that it's important to document life. And, uh, in this context, it's like whenever you're a dad and you have your kids, like you, you want to be present, but then there are, there is that aspect where it's like, you want to document what's happening possibly. How do you mix those two? Because I know like back in the day, my parents had a camcorder and they eventually put it up and put it away. And now it's like, everybody has a

[00:41:59] camcorder in their pocket. Yeah. I mean, we do that, um, for sure with our phones. Um, songs like my songs have really shifted towards my experience as a parent. And, uh, that just feels like the most natural thing for me to do, uh, the best of both worlds, the time that I'm spending writing kind of, cause I, I'm working on a full band record right now with,

[00:42:28] uh, with the morning Jays and we recorded a bunch of stuff earlier in the spring before, uh, our son was, my son was born. And it's just been such a paradigm shift. And I've, uh, just been saying like, man, I really, really feel like this is a, this is an important time that I'll never get back. And I really need to document what I'm going through. So when in

[00:42:55] doubt, you know, just go to the song and get it recorded somewhere. And so I feel like that'd be a great way to document it. I mean, I, I'm not a songwriter necessarily, so I don't know if I can apply that to my own life, but I'll have to figure out any, you can wrap the song. Yeah. I believe in you. Thank you. Even if it's bad. Thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah, that's true. Um, big question, but where do you see yourself, your family, your career in like 10 years? Wow.

[00:43:23] I know it's not, it's not the easiest question to answer, but if everything goes your way, how do you see your life in 10 years? I'll just say in a bigger house. Okay. Fair. Like that's really all I, that's all we really want. It's just like a little bit bigger house with a, with a bigger yard. We live like where, where we live is so beautiful, but it was for me

[00:43:47] when I bought it and it's, the things you don't know when you never bought a house is how much sun is there throughout the day? When does the sun shine on the house? And like in the summer, you know, the song, the, uh, and the deep dark deals of Hills of Eastern Kentucky sun comes up about 10 in the morning, goes down about three in the day. That's, that's kind of how it is

[00:44:09] where I live. And, uh, so I mean, I could leave it there, but no chance of you ever leaving Kentucky. Yeah. Uh, I'll not say that. Okay. No, I, I, you know, life changes and

[00:44:31] I've always thought about being here closer to, um, just more songwriters, more of a, sorry, more of a, just like the day to day. Um, that's what I, uh, like it intrigues me about here is just like the day to day you go to work and you write songs and then you go home and you're home,

[00:44:56] you know, like the, not the typical nine to five, but I don't know. I think that's something that I yearn for is like the day to day instead of like the week to week of, of the gig, you know, feeling like, okay, I've done, I've done, I've gone to work. I've took my lunch pill and, you know, done the work. So, um, um, but they're going to have to do something about the, the mortgages around here for me to

[00:45:26] do that. But yeah. And the traffic probably that would help. Yeah. Um, from what I've seen, I think on, on social media, you do live like in the, in the woods. Yeah. So it's like, I feel like your social media is just as much of an outdoors page as it is. Thank you. That's what, yeah, that's, that's what I'm going for. It must be nice. Like, uh, you know, my, where my parents live back in Kentucky, it's like, there's deer that walk up. There's, uh, possums that come up on their porch and stuff like that. So like,

[00:45:55] there was a raccoon in my house not long ago. My daughter had left the door open and we were in the living room and I was like, what is that noise? And it was a, it was a raccoon in the motor room pulling cat food outside. I was like, man, that is bold. But, um, yeah, it's, I say that I would never leave, but saying it and actually doing it,

[00:46:20] obviously that's two different things. Yeah. Yeah. And it's easy to imagine, but yeah, you never know. Always. You know, the thing about the grass is always greener. Like I said, it's easy to be there and be mad about, you know, stuff, you know. But I feel like it's a good, it's a good thing that like, you're not like, no, this is how it's going to be. And I'm not open to change that you are open. Yeah. That's because you've been through some stuff where you know, life is going to happen. Yeah.

[00:46:48] Yes. Yes. And I also have to point out, and I've, I don't want you to think that I was just scouring your social media for hours before this interview. Um, but there, there was a post that was very important to me and it was a very beautiful shot of a Burger King sign lit up and you said, Burger King, uh, is elite. And that was a statement that you made and I agree with it. But why do you

[00:47:13] feel like that? Because it doesn't always get that rap. I think as far as fast food restaurants go. Yeah. I'm a hater over here. So convince me. Yeah. Um, well, their, their patties are USDA, like, like no filler. That was like the main thing. I can't even eat it anymore. Like I can't eat the patties. I have alpha gal. Um, so, but it gives me the impossible Whopper. I don't love that.

[00:47:43] Um, but it's mainly the patties, the patties of the, of the beef. I feel like in my, uh, years of research are the cleanest option. Uh, if you're going to go that route, I'm pretty sure like they, they did, they're doing their like a rebrand, like quality control is like really important to them

[00:48:06] now. Yeah. They got rid of the king, like the king caricature. Yeah. And, uh, but the ones at home are super automated. Like you don't even, like you go inside and you don't even talk to a human. You just order everything on the screen and everything is. I saw a video of somebody going through a drive-thru and it was like AI drive-thru, like they're taking their order. Now they don't even have anybody at the, with a headset on. Yeah. It's, it's weird. Eventually there might not even be

[00:48:34] any people. I know. No quality control. Yeah. Hopefully not for Burger King's sake. So funny. Just wanted to shout it out. Appreciate that. Appreciate your, your, uh, investment in the, the, the content. Yeah, of course. No, we don't have a ton of time left, but whenever an artist has tattoos, I need a tattoo tour and to see what they are and what they mean. Okay. I see two so far. So.

[00:48:59] There's four. Okay. James, that's, that was my grandfather's name. Uh, the, the sort of a character or the, the narrator of Heinemann, like who I'm writing for the perspective of James. Um, I've got this one. I got that in 2016. It was during a, just a transformational time of like

[00:49:25] feeling like I was sort of cutting some things from the past and letting some old things die, sticking the knife in it. Um, the peacock, uh, I was just like seeing peacocks everywhere and like, it was just getting brought up. And, uh, so I was like, yeah, I'll get a peacock tattoo.

[00:49:53] You know? Um, so it was like kind of just the way I, in, in the moment, it was like this best version of myself, but then also like the shadow side of like being aware of like the pride, proud as a peacock, don't be too proud. I think that, you know, everything, even if you may know

[00:50:18] some things like, and then, um, this is a sibling tattoo. So me, my sister, my two brothers, I'll have this one. Okay. Nice. So it's like four mountains for the four kids. I knew someone as introspective had, had meanings behind them. You know, some people are just like, I got this cause it looked cool. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still waiting on that one just to get that one.

[00:50:45] Yeah. My daughter's a drawer, big, big artist. So I think I'm going to get, that'll be the next phase. That's a ton of meaning behind it. So yeah. Well, I, uh, was waiting to see if you were going to have a UK tattoo or anything like that. I didn't know if you were that big of a super fan because I know Kentucky fans are pretty crazy about their, uh, their athletic programs. Yeah. They pissed me off too much. Yeah. That'd be hard to, to put a UK somewhere on the body. I,

[00:51:15] I didn't bring it up this late into the, uh, podcast for a reason because I'm a Louisville fan. I just wanted to make sure that we could have some, we could have some good conversation before you kind of just cut it off. Yeah. No, I mean, nobody's perfect. Well, I feel like that's the perfect way to end the interview. So thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. Everyone go listen to the new EP rabbit holes. Thank you. Catch you at a show. All right.

[00:51:44] Yeah. Open. Anything else? That's it. We covered it. Perfect. Thanks so much. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.