Channing Wilson: Outlaw Country & Surviving Nashville Without Chasing Trends

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[00:00:45] Similar to your career. Scott Cohn, well yeah, he's had a lot more, he was actually trying to write a hit song. Kind of accidentally backed into one. I feel like this, we're already recording so I feel like we don't even have to do like a formal intro. Oh yeah, yeah, that's cool. We can just kind of dive into it. Yeah, I haven't seen you since we did that festival in California. Yes. Which was really cool and it kind of stinks of not having that anymore. Yeah, I know it was beautiful. It was in Monterey. Monterey, yeah, what a spot.

[00:01:11] Yeah. I feel like that's happening more and more. These festivals are like, they pop up and then they go away. Yeah, you know, it's a gold rush and then, you know. Yep. That was a good one though. The lineup on that one was really, really, really cool and just, I like, I'm sure Shelby can tell you too, it was just my kind of music, our kind of music. Mm-hmm. And, well. You play a lot of festivals. Do you like playing festivals over like your own show or opening up for just one person?

[00:01:40] You know, where I'm at right now, festivals are fun because if the slot's good, you know, sometimes these three o'clock in the afternoon slots are a little brutal. But honestly, that's where you find your hardcore music fans anyway, you know. So if I'm on, you know, right before a huge like radio country act, sometimes they're just so excited to see whoever that is that, you know, that could be glazing over what's right, you know, a couple people before.

[00:02:09] So sometimes those early slots are good, but I mean, I mean, I love playing my own shows. I think any artist would tell you that. I mean, there's nothing better than your fans showing up to your show and knowing your songs. And that's the big, that's the thing that keeps you going. Like sometimes when a lot of people in this town can tell you no and different things, you know, when you go out on the road and people talk to you and tell you how they, how you impact them. It's like, all right, man, you know, still doing it.

[00:02:38] I got to do this, you know. Put some fuel in the tank for sure. Yeah, it just recharges you every single time. It don't even take much, man. Just one person at the merch booth can really just change your whole, give you a whole nother year. And that's cool to hear because I think a lot of fans would assume, or maybe not a lot of, but some fans would assume like, oh, I'm bothering an artist by telling them my story. I get that a lot too, yeah. Well, sometimes the stories can be long.

[00:03:03] You know, when I have, you know, if I got 50 people to talk to and you're telling me about your uncle that I remind you of, you know, and how y'all used to go fishing down on Dale Hollow, you know, it's like, all right, buddy, you know, I appreciate it. So some stories recharge more than others, it sounds like.

[00:03:19] Yeah, you know, and I kind of attribute to what I, you know, when I was a kid, idolizing guys like Hank Williams Jr. and some of those old dudes, Merle Haggard, and they would have fan mail accounts where you could mail them stuff, you know. And every now and then they would mail you something back. Now, it never happened to me, but I always heard stories. So nowadays you just get it directly to your phone. Yeah, I think fan mail is a better way to do it.

[00:03:49] Now it seems like, I mean, that's probably a lost art. And now it's just people get upset if you don't, you comment back on somebody's, you know, it's all more complicated. Feels very invasive. Yeah. Well, it's, you know, we could talk about this for a year, but it's the nature of social media and, you know, just everyone wants their blue check. Everyone wants to be heard. And of course you want to be heard, you know.

[00:04:10] Now, the problem is the people who feel like they had something to say worked really hard to get to a position to have a platform to say it. And by the time they got there, they developed their, you know, their skill set on what they were saying. And then all of a sudden, all that's changed and everybody has a microphone now. Yeah. And so in some ways it's good and I don't have to tell you guys how a lot of ways it's bad. Yeah. Both. We see both sides.

[00:04:39] I mean, we wouldn't be a company if social media wasn't a thing. True. That's true. But yeah, there's definitely a lot of bad comments we sift through at times. I mean, I love it at the same time, you know, because I live in Georgia and work in Nashville. So it's, you know, I can keep up with everything and, you know, nobody has to know where I'm at. I can just turn the phone around and talk to people. Yeah. You know, I could be anywhere, you know. So that's pretty cool. So if you live in Georgia, how often are you coming up to Nashville? Is it a weekly basis or? Yeah, I mean, it can be. I have a place here too. So I have an apartment.

[00:05:11] But me and old Ben Chapman, we have a place over here. Well, there's actually a bunch of people at this house, but me and him are neighbors. I actually was going to ask you about Ben because he was recently on a podcast and said that, was telling kind of his story and was saying that he came up to you and like basically wanted to be mentored by you or you ended up being his mentor. Yeah. And, you know, and I knew exactly what I was going to do with him.

[00:05:39] I mean, he was, well, I met him when he was 14 and I'd known his dad, bought a few cars from him back in the day and we're from the same hometown. And he, I was doing some private party for a buddy I graduated high school with. And it was one of those deals to where, yeah, come play an hour at my barbecue. And then that turns into four hours and everybody's requesting songs. Don't leave, don't leave. And I'm exhausted by the end of it.

[00:06:07] And, uh, and, uh, his dad, Ben's dad walked up to me and says, Hey, you care if my boy gets up and picks one with you? And at this point, man, I was up for anything. And I was like, tell him to get up here if, you know, if he has a guitar. And, uh, and he did. And he got up and I was like, what do you want to play, buddy? And he, he was 14. You have to understand this, this was, this was a kid and, uh, I was about half drunk at this point, I'm sure too. And, and, uh, he goes, man, what about some Almond brothers or some Merle Haggard?

[00:06:36] And I just, like, I just sobered right up and was like, who is this kid? You know? And, um, and it was really good. He, you could tell that he'd been practicing guitar back then and he, he had his licks down and, uh, and he impressed me and his family's amazing. They're so, such good down, down to earth people. And so I just kind of kept my eye on him for a while.

[00:06:59] And then a friend of mine was, uh, at a bar in Chattanooga and said, Hey man, uh, uh, Greg Chapman's boy is playing up here. Ben, you should come up and watch him. So I did. I, I drove up and when I walked in, he was doing a Brent Cobb cover and he was about 18 at this point. And, uh, I just sent a video to Brent. I said, man, look at this kid. Cause, uh, me and Brent could, we used to talk on the phone late nights talking about the

[00:07:27] struggles of, of keeping going and stuff like that. So anytime, you know, I was like, look at this 18 year old kid out here playing your covers. This was in 20. I mean, I don't even know. It was like Brent might've just put out his first record. So he was looking, you know, he was before he really kind of started blowing up. And so that was a cool moment. Um, anytime somebody covers your songs. But, um, yeah, he, uh, and then, uh, we started hanging out and talking and, um, he was mowing

[00:07:54] my yard for a while, you know, and, uh, and stuff like that, you know, he was saving his money being smart. And, uh, I was telling him, you know, don't, don't do this, you know, go play shows. And, um, I just different advice, but mainly just trying to get him to avoid certain speed humps that cost me five, 10 years sometimes, you know? And, uh, and then he got up here in time for COVID to shut down. So when, uh, when all of us, you know, old fat guys were home washing our groceries, Ben was out playing shows. Yeah.

[00:08:24] Cause he was, you know, 21, 22 years old getting it. Mm-hmm. And, uh, next thing you know, he, um, he's signing a publishing deal and making a record with Jake and, and there you go. Yeah. And I hadn't done nothing since. He's mentoring me at the time now, so he's doing great. Well, I feel like you came on our radar, you as an artist and after your first album came out, first and only album really out. Yeah. However, you. Not to change that, but we'll talk about that. Okay. Cool. Good to hear.

[00:08:52] Um, but you are really known in the industry and like beloved in the industry for many years as a songwriter. Mm-hmm. So what kind of made that shift to, you know, become a songwriter, to be an artist yourself? You know, um, so before I ever came to Nashville, I was, uh, um, let me back it up just a little bit. At the end of the nineties, when I was a young man working at Lowe's, I went and I seen Billy Joe Shaver play a little coffee shop in Chattanooga for about 40 people.

[00:09:22] And I just kind of found Texas songwriters at this point. And I was really getting into him and Guy Clark and Steve Earle and Towns Van Zandt, Ray Wiley Hubbard, just all these, I mean, it was just as much as you could give me. I was on the internet, just downloading, uh, pirated songs and stuff, you know, whatever. I mean, it's the only thing you get in my area. You couldn't go to Walmart and buy Ray Wiley Hubbard CD, you know? And so, um, that's the way I didn't feel guilty about it.

[00:09:49] Um, but anyway, so I, you know, it, before that I was a big like Brooks and Dunn fan. Uh, nineties country, you know, when I was in high school and, and, uh, and, but it just all seemed so big to me. It just seemed like, well, there's no way I could move to Nashville and be a, you know, songwriter, even though I wanted to. And so, uh, when I found those guys, I was like, well, man, Billy Joe Shaver, this guy wrote all these whaling songs.

[00:10:17] Here he is in a coffee shop, you know, playing for 40 people. And while, I mean, at the time that was literally my goal. I was like, man, if I could just, if I could just do this right here, you know, and this was before his son, Eddie had passed away and, and he was playing guitar for him. And it was just an incredible experience. And I quit my job like within a month and just started a band. Uh, and then, you know, that lasted a year. Then I started another band and that lasted six or seven years.

[00:10:46] That was a, uh, kind of a, we were a regional half the country kind of touring act, you know, kind of rockabilly. So I learned how to, uh, entertain people, how to, uh, threaten to kill bar owners for not paying us, you know, stuff like that. I learned all how to book shows, how to hand, hand out flyers, all this stuff. And then I had a, I had a kid and I was like, you know, I could play all these bars that aren't going to do me any good, or I can come to Nashville and see what I'm made of.

[00:11:16] And I started coming up in, uh, 2008 or nine and signed up a publishing deal at EMI pretty, pretty quick after that. And, uh, and Ben Vaughn had signed me over there on a song I wrote called poor man's cocaine, you know? And it was like, uh, it was a song about meth. I come to Nashville singing that song and I ended up landing a publishing deal at one of the biggest publishing companies in the world, you know?

[00:11:44] And so it, I had to do a lot of Googling at that point, you know, I was like, well, it's a publishing deal. What's a bad publishing deal, you know? And is there a lot of good information on Google about that stuff? You know, back then, I don't even know if it was Google, but, uh, there wasn't a lot of information, but luckily, um, God rest his soul. Ben was a, uh, mentored me. And he, uh, in our first meeting, he literally told me, he's just, he said off the record.

[00:12:13] He's like, don't worry about trying to write hit country songs. And he goes, write these songs that made me want to sign you to a publishing deal. And you just go be you. I've got 50 writers over here every day cranking out hits. He goes, if you might act, you might get one. He says, but you just go be you. You write the kind of songs you want to write. And, uh, and I'll keep you check coming in, paying you bills for it, you know? And I did that, you know?

[00:12:43] And, uh, and then EMI went away that quick and then, and Sony bought them up and Sony wasn't playing that game. So I got dropped from that deal pretty quick. And, um, but I, you know, I kept hanging around and, uh, uh, try to, you know, try to be good to people and, and, and, uh, try to write great songs with them, get vulnerable and, uh, co-write. That was the main thing, you know, check your ego. Um, we all got egos, but when you're sitting in a cross from somebody writing a song with

[00:13:12] them, you, uh, I mean, the whole point is to get something great and you're not getting paid really to be there, you know? So why, you know, why not try to, you never know who you're going to write a great song with. And, um, literally the Luke Combs story. Um, I'm, it, me and Rob Snyder are at a, uh, apartment together and we'd been out the night before I, at least I'd had.

[00:13:38] And, um, I was drinking pretty heavy back then and I woke up and I believe I canceled on Ashley Monroe that morning because I was just not having it. Mm-hmm. And, um, and I walked through the living room probably, you know, in my boxers going to make a cup of coffee or something. And Luke was walking into Rob's apartment and, uh, and I'd recognized him from a couple weeks before cause we'd, I was just started to help Rob do the revival shows back then.

[00:14:09] And, uh, and, uh, and I think Luke really dug my tune. So he asked Rob, he's like, man, do you think Channing would write with us? And Rob texts me from the other room is like, dude, you want to write? And I was like, no, bro, I already canceled. I already canceled on, you know, who I think is like one of the best singer songwriters in town. I think I'm just going to go back to sleep. And, uh, I walked back in and, and Rob being Rob just said, Luke, sing him a song.

[00:14:36] And he just put Luke on the spot and Luke started playing like a cover of something, Bob Seger or something. And his, uh, and when I heard him, I was like, man, what a voice, you know, this dude has really got a voice on him. And he's, he's, he's just such a nice kid and, and, uh, was really respectful to me. And I was like, all right, give me just a minute, you know, and we sat down and we wrote that, uh, she got the best of me and, you know, about an hour or two. And, uh, you know, you never know at the time what it's going to be.

[00:15:06] I remember I tried to send it around and pitch it to Tyler Farr and a couple artists, guys that I knew had deals then, you know, and, and, uh, two weeks later it's on iTunes. Like Luke had recorded a demo and, and, uh, and he, I remember he come in a revival one week and handed me like $300 cash. He just hands it to me. And I was like, you know, I said, what's this for? And he's like, it's your royalties. He was just literally doing it.

[00:15:34] Uh, just, you know, punk rock, you know, paying me 300 bucks, like a drug deal. And, uh, and I told, I looked at Rob, I said, that's the most money I ever made songwriting right there. And, uh, yeah. So, and then, and yeah, and then it blew up. And so I accidentally wrote a, wrote a hit song. I mean, excuse my ignorance. I feel like I don't, I don't understand a publishing deal cause you know, not, not in it, but I assume you get more money from writing.

[00:16:03] She got the best of me without the publishing deal than with one. Well, the good news is, is I didn't have a publishing deal when I wrote the song. So, so that was the bittersweet moment where, um, I liked, I liked everybody over at Sony. I still, I still like them. Uh, even though I, uh, I felt like I kind of got done dirty get, uh, when I got dropped from there. Um, they literally told me they were going to pick up my contract and then the day before they had to, they dropped me, you know?

[00:16:32] And so I had to, I was living over in Donaldson at the time with my now wife and our son. And I moved a three bedroom, 2000 square foot house into a 10 by 30 storage unit in two days and had to cut tail and leave town. And, uh, we moved in with her parents for eight months until, uh, until I found a little house down there in Georgia to buy and get us out of that situation. So, uh, at the time I was pretty bitter.

[00:17:02] Uh, understandably. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, uh, and, and had a baby on the way and. Wow. So, uh, it was, it was a rough, uh, 20, 2013 was a rough year for me. What's the, and what's the thought process there too? It's like, you, you've thought that everything was laid out, then it gets ripped away. Rug gets pulled out from underneath you basically. Was there a moment where you were like, okay, maybe this is over or were you still confident that things were going to. The Nashville side of things. I knew, I knew, I knew how to book shows.

[00:17:31] I knew how to entertain drunk people. Um, I knew how to, to make them listen to my original music. You know, I was never scared to, uh, um, you know, I, I never played popular covers when I played sports bars. I just, everybody else did. And so to scratch my own artistic bone before I was able to even be the artist that I wanted

[00:17:54] to be, I was, um, scratching that itch by playing like two hours constantly of Steve Earl songs just to mess with these sports bars, you know? And, and, and, and in the middle, you would throw a copperhead road in there or something just to, you know, um, but you know, anybody that watched me back in those days can tell you it was a, it was a, uh, it was almost like a church sermon where, uh, you know, I would, uh, just almost hold court and say, you know, we don't play shitty music.

[00:18:23] We play good music. And I, one night I did a three hour set of just nothing but like Johnny Cash and Waylon songs. And because I'm literally bored artistically, you know, it's like I'm down here at a sports bar, but I'm paying my rent, you know? And so I had two babies and, uh, and I would come here and write songs, uh, Tuesday and Wednesday and then go play these bars on the weekends. And I did that every week for, uh, over 10 years at least. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And I still come up.

[00:18:52] So, um, but yeah, rug pulled out. Um, I mean, you don't think about quitting really. You think about, you know, um, it not working out for sure. Yeah. The, you know, the bigger, whether you call it a dream or just the five year plan or the 20 year plan. And, um, you know, I started this thing off just wanting to be Billy Joe Shafer, you know? So, uh, and I have on his outfit right now. We're doing pretty good. So then, yeah.

[00:19:21] So what happened to make you want to go in and make your own album then? Did you kind of. 10 years after that happened. Man, I wrote a hit song and I finally had just a little bit of extra money, you know? Uh, I, I tried to make records when I first got to town and there was a lot of labels, um, bless their hearts that were trying to sign me at one point. Um, I was doing, uh, the country throwdown tour back in, uh, 2012.

[00:19:49] And, um, I had a lot of, uh, buzz back then. And there was a couple, I mean, all, there was three or four different major labels that were, uh, meeting with me a lot back then. And on that tour was Florida Georgia line. And it was their first run of shows. And it was the, the beginnings of what ended up calling bro country. And so, uh, once we got off that tour and then those guys blew up, yeah, my phone just quit ringing.

[00:20:19] It was like, you know, everybody in town, the music business is chasing what's hot. You know, they're always chasing. And then your, your, your true innovators are ahead of the curve or they, they stick to what they know is great. Um, but unfortunately we live in a very, uh, throwaway kind of economy. So, uh, and nothing against those guys, but, uh, you know, just everybody started chasing that sound. And, uh, and that's going to be frustrating to. Oh, it was very frustrating, man.

[00:20:46] Uh, at the same time, it's, um, I want to say it set up everything for this, but man, those were hard years. There was, even amongst the songwriters in town. I mean, there was just so many people that was just this, they didn't want to go write that shit, you know? Nobody did, but they were, I mean, me and, me and Rob, we, we would take a stab at it every now and then and we'd just laugh. We, we listen to those demos now and it's just hilarious.

[00:21:12] Well, and I would assume that it, it would feel like something writing in that kind of headspace and pumping out a bro country song would be easier, right? I mean, there's not a lot to it. The problem is, is when you, when you are influenced by the best songwriters in the world, you just can't do it. Yeah. It would be like. There's just something stopping you from doing that. It's just, you just cannot do it. Yeah. Um, I just feel like they're all looking down watching, you know, and I would feel very dirty trying to do that, you know?

[00:21:42] Um, and, but to answer your question, um, I moved here to be an artist. Um, I, I found my crowd pretty quick. You know, I, I, my first couple of weeks up here, I bumped into Brent Cobb, bumped into, uh, Drake White. We used to all do the Alabama line down at the blue bar. That was a, that was a great time. And then, um, whiskey jam was a, was a big deal early on.

[00:22:09] And, uh, back before, uh, it is what it is now, which is, you know, I don't, I can't even keep up with it now. Uh, there's so many different whiskey jams and, and everything that, uh, Ward's doing. But, but back then it was literally just a core of about 30 artists and songwriters that were just playing at Winters every Monday night. It was just a drunk fest, you know? And, uh, in good times.

[00:22:33] And, uh, and then the revival thing kicked off and, and, uh, that ended up being, uh, what I felt like was, um, almost the front door, uh, to, uh, everything that's happening right now. I mean, I mean, we were there for Luke, of course, Laney Wilson. We used to have her as much as we could. Um, Ashley, uh, McBride, she used to play it a lot. I mean, I, I'm going to forget everybody. Brand, of course.

[00:23:02] I mean, it was just loaded with, with talent every, every week, you know? And, uh, and I heard they just did a movie about something about that, but I hadn't, I hadn't seen it. Yeah. They didn't have me on it. I'm like, how could you have a movie? Yeah. About revival. And I had me on it. That was weird. Um, but so as soon as I, as soon as I got a little money saved up, I made a record. I tried to make a record with a couple of different producers in town before then.

[00:23:31] And I just couldn't ever, I couldn't ever find the sound. It was tough, you know? So getting with Dave Cobb, I want that first record. It was, um, a dream come true ever since Brent first played me some of Dave's early records. And then of course, so the shooter stuff from LA and then, and Brent's first record, um, the Sturgill stuff. I mean, the Jason Esbel record. The list is long. The list is long.

[00:23:55] And, and, you know, the secret sauce is, is I believe, um, is Dave is just such a music fan that he, he just, he helps the artist instead of direct, directing them into something that they're not, you know? So, and, um, well, so that first record I did with him was, uh, was, uh, just, I mean, I don't know how to say it was just a, literally, literally a dream come true to get to record, um,

[00:24:25] with that caliber of, uh, band and, and everything. And have since become friends with them all. I was going to say, like, it feels like you lived so much life before you put out that first record. Did it feel that way whenever you were putting it together? Were these songs that you had kind of accumulated over the years or how did that come to be? You know, I was listening to that record not long ago because, uh, I just went in and made a new record. And so I was listening to, uh, to that record as, uh, not a reference so much as just a,

[00:24:54] um, almost a reminder of what to do and what not to do again, you know? And, um, and, uh, a lot of those songs were, uh, very therapeutic for me to get out. You know, uh, a few of them were, uh, were just songs I thought were great, but, uh, yeah, those were some, the songs that came from my frustrating music career years, you know? And, um, and so, and this next record is, uh, um, is different. Yeah.

[00:25:23] Well, and what can you share about the next record? Maybe a timeline or? Yeah, well, um, I got, I'm still mixing it. I recorded it, uh, three weeks ago with Dave again. So we did a, um, I'm happy to say that, uh, it's my career so I can say whatever I want. I have a different, I have team, I have team now. So, uh, it's a little different, but, um, yeah, we recorded it here at RCA and, uh, and mixed it in Savannah

[00:25:53] and, uh, where he's at and, and I'm really proud of it. And I think it's, uh, I think it's the best stuff I've, I've done. Yeah. I'm really pumped. Why was now the right time to put another record together? Uh, well, you know, I mean, it's been three years since I did the other one. Um, um, you know, I came off that, I did that TV show. Um, I come off that with a little momentum and, um, and a new appreciation for the fans,

[00:26:22] you know, because, uh, the reason I did that show was because it's so hard to get through the needle of, uh, or the bottleneck of social media without being completely narcissistic and obnoxious, you know, which I don't like to be. It's just tough to, for me to get on every single day and act like people really care what I'm up to, you know? And, um, and call me old, I don't care.

[00:26:48] But the, uh, I thought, man, you know, let me see, let me see what this is. Because I could get, I could go out there and play original music on that show, which was the selling point for me. Um, and once I got a few under my belt, they kind of backed off of me, um, because I was doing really good on the show. So I don't know if y'all watch the show or not, but, um. I binged all the clips this last week. Yeah. I mean, you know, um. It's definitely a great, like a great idea.

[00:27:17] And obviously, it's Taylor Sheridan's name on it. Everybody was bought in, I think, from that point. I think, you know, I mean, I could second guess them. But they were, I mean, they were making it up as they went and, which was really cool. And, and to give them the credit they deserve, everybody on that show, including me, really got to be the artist that they are. Nobody, you know, it wasn't like a American Isle or a voice where they force you to, they

[00:27:46] would force me to do like a Elton John song or something, you know? Nothing Against Elton John, it just, it would be impossible for me to pull off an Elton John song, you know? But, um, but yeah, you know, they were really just interested in my story. Yeah. Um, unfortunately, um, the edit, the way they edited it, they cut a lot of that stuff out. Um, they focused a lot on more dramatic issues, you know, which, which it's a TV show, you know?

[00:28:15] And so like me, when I got done filming it, I was like, man, my story's going to be out. They're really going to, they're going to know this. They're going to know this about me. And, and a lot of that stuff is just on buried B-roll somewhere, you know? Which is why I'm so happy that you're here actually sitting down to share it because, you know, none of this will be edited out. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, um, but the show was great. Uh, they really let me do what I wanted to do. I picked every song that I did.

[00:28:42] Um, they were definitely suggesting stuff and a couple of times tried to fight me on it. And I mean, what's that, uh, that old dog and new tricks, uh, I mean, I'm like, I don't have to be here, you know? I'm like, I could literally just, I mean, I was, this was seven weeks into it. I mean, you know, I got my own money. I got my own credit card. I could fly home. Yeah. And y'all could explain it on your TV show. I'm not here. Like, I'm not doing this song.

[00:29:12] I'm going to stick to my, what I do. Cause, uh, my whole point wasn't to win over Keith Urban's fam. My whole point was to get on the TV and find my audience, you know? It sounds like you basically just used it as a tool. That's exactly what I did. Yeah. Which is fascinating. Really. And it was, uh, I got to play eight of my original songs on CBS. Um, that's worth a lot. That's crazy.

[00:29:37] And so the only thing is, uh, I remember at the end of it when I didn't win and they didn't, they didn't show this, but Keith Urban asked me, he's like, he said, uh, he said, Channing, what are you? He goes, what's on your mind right now? And I just said, Keith, I can't believe I'm on a TV show.

[00:29:56] They didn't put that in there, but, uh, they should have. Um, and so, uh, so they, they, they didn't show any of the covers from that night. Uh, so nobody knows that, but I was paying tribute to all my heroes and it's, you know, that's what I've been doing my whole career. I just, I love country music.

[00:30:24] I, I love the history. Um, I love the songwriters, the people who grinded it out for years. And, uh, it was always been my mission to dig that stuff up and keep it going. And was that something that opportunity, uh, with, we haven't named the TV show yet. I don't know if we will, but, uh, was that, was that an opportunity that was presented to you? Or is that something that you sought out? Cause I know you've been involved in some other Taylor Sheridan things. Yeah.

[00:30:48] I was, uh, writing, uh, songs for, uh, Avon or, uh, Andre Von Forster, um, who does all the music for the Yellowstone show and now Landman. And she, uh, I called her one day and we were talking about something different. She's, you know, this was in 2023. I was out opening for Wheeler Walker in Idaho somewhere and promoting the first album.

[00:31:14] And she goes, Hey, I got this crazy idea that I think you might be interested in. And, uh, she told me a little bit about it. And I said, well, when it comes around, let me know. And so they, they called me. I did a zoom interview and the thing I kept pushing is like, you know, I get to play my own original songs, don't I? Original songs. I get to do my own stuff. And, and they were like, yep, yep. And then it, it kind of went away for like six months and then they hit me back and, you know, said, do you still want to audition?

[00:31:44] And, uh, I mean, it's either that or dance on TikTok. You know? I don't want to sound like an old man because I actually kind of like TikTok in some ways. But, uh, you know, I just said, all right, man, I'll give it a try. And, uh, it was great. I met a lot of great people on there. And it, and the best thing for me was I really enjoyed the, the sets, the process of television and, uh, and, uh, how professional it is. And probably a new part of the business too.

[00:32:14] Completely new part of the business. And it was very, and it's very creative and, uh, which scratches my itch, you know? And so, um, that's all I want to do is be in some, I have to be around creative people or I'll drive myself crazy. You know, I like good old simple people too, but, uh, but once I know where all their fish are at, I'm done talking to them. You know, and then like I have to go find my people and hang out with them. Right. Yeah.

[00:32:39] So in that world, even though it's TV and even though it's big time, that's, it's full of creative people. I mean, down to the assistants, they all, they're all directors. They all work on their own films, but they're, this is their day job. And so everybody is super cool and very nice. And that whole crew was just unbelievable to me. And, uh, and so that led me to doing the marshals. I don't know if that was what you're going to ask, but yeah. So I'm kind of in that world now. And I'm very happy to be there.

[00:33:09] You're the go-to guy for any sort of Taylor Sheridan soundtrack that's necessary. I hope so. Yeah. I hope they, I haven't played any in this record cause I'm, uh, but I'm, I'll be playing it for them soon. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's exciting. Probably much, I mean, a lot more to come. Yeah. I won't say too much, but, uh, but yeah, if you keep watching, you might see me again. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Um, and did you ever, I mean, when you agreed to go on the show, did you think you were gonna make it as far as you did?

[00:33:38] Or did you, like, what did you expect to happen? You know, no. Um, I'm not a, you know, when I was a teenager, I did some talent shows trying to figure stuff out and never did, never won, never even placed. Um, it was always the, it was always the, the guy in the cowboy hat that was dancing that, that won every time, every talent show I ever entered.

[00:34:05] And, uh, so those kinds of things just never interested me. Yeah. It's one of the big reasons when I get hit up a lot to critique people's songs, which is flattering that they think enough of me to, uh, they want to know what I think about their music, you know? But, and I tell them, I'm like, I'm, I do not do song critiques. You know, you listen to your song. Yeah. And go back and listen to Guy Clark or go listen to Towns Van Zandt.

[00:34:31] If that's the kind of writer you're wanting to be and then listen to your song again. And if you feel like it's not up to that, it's not up to that. You know, you don't need me to tell you that because I don't know what makes a song, you know, great. I just know whenever I write one that I really am proud of, you know? And so I'm always flattered by people who, uh, hit me up to send me their music. But as far as judging music, it's just, I don't get it.

[00:34:58] I don't get the, the contest, uh, aspect of it. I didn't think I was going to make it very far. Um, but luckily it started in Texas and man, those people just love real country music. And I did on the second show, I did a, uh, Billy Joe Shaver cover and did, um, uh, song called Drink That Strong from my first album. Um, and, uh, and then here I just did the whole record and then Hank Williams Jr. covers.

[00:35:27] Um, I can't remember all the covers I did. There were so many I was going to do. Um, but yeah. You got to stick around to do, I mean, basically all of them. Oh yeah, I know I got to do everything. Yeah. And then, and then at the finale, I did, uh, David Allen Coe's The Ride at the Ryman and, uh, and, uh, and lost. But, you know, it didn't bother me to, I made it to the end of this thing. That's really all I really cared about. I mean, they say for like American Idol too, like, you know, the winning, the winner gets a record deal.

[00:35:57] But like, obviously it's with a specific label. So I imagine it was the same for this. So it can always be a blessing in disguise to get second in a lot of those shows anyways. And, you know, the biggest thing for me was all the people that fell in love with me on the show, uh, really showed me that for the, for a month or even still, um, because the last four or five shows I played, I mean, we've sold out a lot of these venues that I never could sell out before.

[00:36:25] And so, um, and they all come up and not all of them, but half the crowd is, is from those TV shows. And, um, and they're like, man, you should have won that, you know? And of course they're just, you know, and I'm flattered by it. Um, but I did everything the way I wanted to do it. And, uh, I didn't come up short the way I see it. You know, it was any, uh, any, any of the top six probably could have won that show, you know?

[00:36:50] And, uh, just the way the crowd works, the way the show was set up, you know, I think if they were going to do it again, they should probably do a finale that was live where people could vote on it live. Yeah. Where you could bring the audience into it. That was the, it was almost like when it was over, it's like, okay, it's over. Anticlimatic. It was anticlimactic really. Um, have you been recognized more, you know, walking around? Yeah. Sure. In airports especially. Yeah. People see me. How does that feel? I mean, you know, I mean the kid, the kid in me loves it.

[00:37:19] You know, um, the, uh, the 50 year old man goes, that's good for business. That's, that's good. You know? And I don't mind. It ain't like I'm sitting over here just, you know, trying to eat my, you know, tuna fish sandwich and somebody won't leave me alone. It's not that bad. Definitely not as bad as, uh, my buddy Luke Combs for sure. I mean, I don't even know if he could even go into a waffle house anymore. Yeah.

[00:37:45] Um, I mean, I do want to ask, you know, if someone, again, probably a lot of people listening to this have either knew who you were before the road or found you on the road. But what is like the song that you would say, you would say, go listen to if they hadn't heard your music before? What's like, whether you wrote it or you recorded it? Uh, yeah. Well, I mean, if you never heard it, if you haven't heard of me, which is a lot of you, um, please go listen to my record, you know, please go stream that thing.

[00:38:12] We're trying to, we're trying to, uh, trying to get those numbers up, you know, that's what it's all about nowadays. Um, you know, if you're, if you're into, you know, what, uh, uh, just truth telling, honest songwriting, you know, um, trying to keep, you know, country. I don't want to say real or what country should be.

[00:38:38] I mean, that's just such an old argument, but it's, uh, you know, all my heroes, um, it wasn't that they had a sound or that they wrote songs about a certain subject. It's just, you really felt like it was just honest. You know, when you, when you, when you go see Willie Nelson nowadays, I mean, he's not 93 and, uh, I mean, you're getting a, uh, a 93 year old man playing music for you.

[00:39:05] That's why he's having trouble breathing. That's why he's, he's always been that honest. And he is, uh, and I would, I mean, without the accolades that he's got, just how awesome would it be to be able to do this until you were 93 years old? Right. Like that's, that's what I, you know, you dream of. Like, if you want to know what my dream is, is to literally just be able to do this, uh, until they, you know, pick you up off the stage and, you know, bury you.

[00:39:35] Um, yeah. So, uh, but yeah, go listen to my first record and, um, and listen to all the good stuff. That's what I'm influenced by. Yeah. Go ahead. You're, you're heroes, right? You mentioned just a second ago. Like, I feel like, and I, and I think I told Shelby this before we, uh, before you came in for the recording. Like, I think from song to song, you can just hear so many different influences. Yeah. I wear them on my sleeve, man. I'm not ashamed of them. Um, my, my favorite songwriters emulated their favorite songwriters.

[00:40:31] Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, if I, um, today I'm wearing my Billy Joe Shaver outfit, you know, uh, denim and denim. And so, um, but, you know, why wouldn't you? You know, uh, unless, you know, when I open my mouth to sing, I try to sing like I talk. Yeah.

[00:40:52] And, um, and that's just the way, you know, I try to just, I don't even try really. I just, uh, I try to write great songs. That's what I do. That's what I really, really care about. I was fortunate enough to, uh, to get to write with Guy Clark before he passed away and we wrote a lot.

[00:41:08] But, and, uh, got to spend some time together. And, um, that was a life-changing moment for me where I realized, okay, you know, if I can sit at the table with what I consider to be the greatest songwriter of all time, um, and, you know, smoke weed and drink way too much coffee and live through it and live to tell about it, then, you know, I'm, I deserve to be here and I'm in the right circles.

[00:41:32] It's just a matter of getting in front of the audiences. So everything is that for me now. If there was another TV show that I could do right now that was literally like that, you know, where I get to go play my original music on NBC this time, like, here I go. I mean, that's, you know, anything to do, to do that because, and, and I love social media too, but like I said, you know, sometimes the day-to-day thing of it feels a little, uh, unauthentic to me. Right. For an artist, I would imagine it'd be very distracting. It's like, I don't want to worry about this.

[00:42:01] I want to do what I love doing. And that's not something that you would necessarily be crazy about. It's not even the worrying about having to do it. It's just the, uh, like, what can I do? That's, I mean, how, you know, how can you remain authentic, um, to people and feel like you're not lying to them when, you know, you don't, you don't really have anything to say. You're just getting on there to say something. Yeah.

[00:42:26] And there's nothing really coming out of your mouth that they probably already didn't know or that they even believe, you know, it's like some people, I mean, uh, definitely not going to call anybody out, but it's just every day. It's just the same thing. Right. It's like, you know, and all they're doing is just, uh, is to feed the algorithm to keep it going. Um, and, and they're smart business wise to do that because it hurts me not doing it. Um, and, and, and I'm coming up with creative ways to, uh, to remain artistic and still be able to do that.

[00:42:55] You know, so, so plan on seeing some, uh, different kinds of social media coming from me soon. Yeah. But if we see you, if we see you dancing on TikTok, we should be worried. Right. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Only way I'm going to be dancing is, uh, is, is if my, like my daughter asked me to. Okay. I was going to ask how old are your kids? Yeah. I got a 13 year old daughter. Okay. My son, he graduates high school. Okay. In, uh, two weeks. Yeah. Probably very cool for them to see their dad on TV. Yeah. They, they enjoyed it. Yeah. I'm sure. Uh, and of course, you know, uh,

[00:43:25] definitely a big fish in a small town now, uh, down where I live. Mm-hmm. Well, I was going to mention, yeah, uh, from Georgia, I'm assuming some Georgia sports teams that you are a fan, a fan of. I, I think I saw a Braves hat in a picture. Um, I see the master's little key chain on your, on your keys. So all Georgia sports, I'm assuming. Uh, yeah, you know, it's, it's why I write sad songs, man. I'm a Falcons fan.

[00:43:55] Of course. Yeah. Um, yeah. It's a tough being a, tough being a, a, uh, Falcons fan. Uh, used to be tough just being fan of anything from Georgia, you know, but, uh, but Braves are killing it this year. Um, yeah, I, I wish I could be, uh, more of a fan of it. I just don't have the mental space to really keep up with the, with everything going on. But, uh, and, and plus the Braves aren't on, uh, TBS anymore. TBS anymore. Yeah. God rest Ted Turner. So he just passed away.

[00:44:25] But, uh, I mean, that's the reason why everybody in America was Braves fans. You know, kind of like, uh, the Cubs and WGN. I mean, I was a Cubs fan too, just because, uh, they were showing them TV every day. We had the opportunity to go down to the Braves stadium last week. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. And interview a couple of the players and stuff. I love that. Tourist Park is awesome. It's awesome. Yeah. So we got a big, I mean, I got a new appreciation for the Braves. He was already a Braves fan. Yeah. I've done a new reason for a while. I'm saying. But it was one of the, the cooler experiences we've gotten to do. It's just a great stadium.

[00:44:54] The whole vibe, you just walking into it is such a great, it's a part. It's like from the moment you get out of your car, you're in the stadium. It feels like it's just something going on all the way there. It's really brilliant. And then in the back, they have the hotels where you can like buy a room and sit on your balcony and watch the game. That's it. Yeah. It's genius. I'm not from here, so I was never a Braves fan, but I feel like it was always the team of like country music. Yeah. So that's what I was really excited about. It was definitely the team of the South. Mm-hmm.

[00:45:21] And through the rough years, you know, the Braves were everywhere. It was the Yankees, the Braves, and the Cubs were nationally televised. It's almost like Dallas in football. You know, there's so many Dallas Cowboy fans everywhere because they were always on Thanksgiving, Christmas, Monday Night Football. I mean, they're always being shown, you know. But yeah, hopefully the Braves can keep it going.

[00:45:46] And with the Masters, most golf fans know if you have Masters merchandise, you've either been yourself or you know somebody that's been. I'm assuming you've been. I got to go, fortunately, I got to go twice. My buddy who's no longer with us, Craig Taylor, was a big, he owned golf cart dealerships down in where I'm from. Mm-hmm. And he was a big, maybe the number one rep of Easy Go. Oh, wow. Yeah. And golf carts. And huge music fan and a big fan of mine.

[00:46:16] We've become really close. And back in 2014, whenever, like I said earlier, there were rough years in Nashville, I just had all this incredible love going on around me outside of Nashville. And one of those things was he invited me to the Masters two years in a row. And the first year I went, we got what they call the Berkman's Pass.

[00:46:41] And it was, it's like this almost secret handshake kind of thing inside the Masters that has their own line of merch you can only get if you have those passes. And there was a replica putting greens and you could, you could putt on them. It was incredible how this was. Yeah. I remember I- I had never heard of that, so. Yeah, it was, and that's how exclusive it is. And, and, and, and of course I love that.

[00:47:06] Any, any time I can get like backstage, man, I'm into it, you know, I'm kind of bougie like that. But, but that was a really cool experience. And I never walked so much in my life just walking around that course. And we went on the practice round day, so it was just very chill. And the players were having fun. But I got, I mean, you got to see everybody. I mean, all my favorite golfers and all that stuff. I've been fortunate to go to a practice round two. And it's just like surreal.

[00:47:33] Anytime I ever talk to anybody about it, it's like, it doesn't feel like a real place. And it's also one of those type of situations, kind of like similar to Lambeau Field. It's like, you just are driving down what looks like a pretty normal place in America. And then you turn into Augusta. It's Augusta. And then you take a ride and it's, it's heaven. Yeah. It really is. And what's wild is the, the grass and everything is so manicured. Like it's unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. And then I remember I was walking from hole to hole and I seen a black patch.

[00:48:02] And I was like, you know, I was always looking to try to find a little mistake, a little imperfection, just a little gotcha moment. And I walked up there and some old boy spit his dip out on the grass. And that's what it was. And I was like, all right, I'll quit looking. I'll quit looking at Augusta National. You have done your work. Well, I mean, I feel like, you know, it's a good episode when we barely even looked down to, you know, see what was next on our thing. We just sat here and listened to you talk for an hour. And it was great. I feel like we could do this for many more hours.

[00:48:32] But we're going to have to continue this at Carolina Country Music Festival. That's right. When I get, and when I get my record out, we'll have to come back and tell me if you dig it or not. Yes. And we'll ask plenty more questions. There's so much more to get into. I'm stoked about the Carolina Country Music Fest, though. I am too. I've done it three or four times. And the people that run that are amazing. And they really know how to put on a festival the right way. And I'm assuming the fan experience is great because they keep selling it out. So yeah. I look forward to seeing you guys down there.

[00:49:02] I'm looking forward to seeing you play there. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you guys.