Surviving the Trail: An interview with author Dr. Rob Scanlon

[00:00:06] Welcome to a special interview episode of the OutThere Colorado Podcast. Once again, I'm Spencer McKee and today I am here with Dr. Rob Scanlon, who has recently published Surviving the Trail, Five Essential Skills to Prepare Every Hiker for Adventure's Most Common Perils. It's a Falcon Guides book, which you probably know Falcon Guides from the yellow and black branding. All sorts of great Falcon Guides out there about Colorado and just about outdoor recreation in general. So a very cool book.

[00:00:36] I got into it quite a bit here and came up with a ton of questions for Rob, but first tell us about yourself. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on the show, Spencer. And so if there's any one place that people go to from outside Colorado is to Colorado for hiking. So I would love to have more exposure in the state for that very reason.

[00:01:02] And so, yeah, so about myself, I am an ICU physician. I started out in practice in 2002, back in the Stone Age. And it's about that time where I became a hiker by really just more for, you know, kind of blowing off steam and, you know, a little bit outside work, social stuff with other docs and nurses who were equally as interested. And,

[00:01:29] at the time I was outside of New York City practicing in a pretty, pretty intense hospital and intense practice. And so hiking became my, my, my go-to for that, that, you know, steam blowing off.

[00:02:22] And so, um, so I, it's, it took me a long time to get here, but I noticed that there's a lot of, uh, a lot of books that are written to survive the circumstances that people will get themselves into. But nobody really had read a book to core focus on these handful of things that trap most hikers that they can absolutely, you know, 100% prevent.

[00:02:49] So, um, so I wanted to create that book. So it took a long time to get here, but that's the, you know, that's basically nuts and bolts. Very cool. And, uh, where are you at now? I'm currently in the furthest thing away from a, from a hiking area in, uh, Savannah, Georgia. Circumstances brought me down here. So, uh, so I have to take a lot of vacation time to go places that are worth, you know, hiking. Oh, for sure. Um, what type of outdoor recreation is there around, uh, Savannah, Georgia?

[00:03:16] It's mostly coastal life. So boating, fishing, you know, there, there's some like, you know, duck hunting, uh, that kind of stuff. But, uh, but I, I'm, I'm just more of a, uh, you know, trail walker. Uh, but you know, it's the professional stuff that brought me down here, but it's the recreational stuff that I leave here for.

[00:03:35] Yeah, for sure. That makes sense. Yeah. Um, yeah. You might have to write a surviving the water, uh, book next. That's, uh, I mean, that's something where every year in Colorado, um, you know, I mean, I think water claims more lives than any other outdoor recreation activity. Um, at least that I can think of dozens a year. Yep. How long were you working on this book then?

[00:03:56] Uh, it took me actually the original manuscript was 15 chapters. Uh, and, uh, so it took me about two years, uh, to, to finish those. And then probably another eight months of rewriting, uh, over and over and over again.

[00:04:11] And, um, and, um, and it kind of, you know, with, with the help of my, my agent, uh, we cut out six chapters and just, uh, made it the core mission of the book, uh, to focus on these, you know, five big elements. And, um, and, um, and so I won't go through all of it, but, uh, but basically we can't, you know, we decanted it down to these five core things.

[00:04:38] So I probably could have gotten it done in a lot, much, much, much time, uh, had I, uh, not done those six extra chapters. Yeah. And we'll get into the five things, um, here and here in a bit, but I did want to ask you before we get rolling on that, um, with all the outdoorsy stuff that you've done, uh, does any, does any one incident stick out in your mind where maybe you've done something wrong in the back country? Um, or something has just gone wrong inadvertently that you weren't really prepared for?

[00:05:05] Um, absolutely. I mean, we're, we're human. So, so we always get stuck. Um, you know, didn't, and I have to say when I first started out being a hiker, the last thing I focused on was my hydration.

[00:05:22] I, I was one of these people who was like, all right, I'll, I'll load up, you know, before I head out, I'll do my thing. And there's plenty of water left over for when I get back to the car and didn't think about it really until I started seeing more and more of these headlines, you know, dehydration, dehydration. And I'm like, Oh my God, how do I do it better for me? So I'm not one of those people. And so, you know, and that came with all the other mistakes I made about, you know, looking ahead.

[00:05:51] And seeing what the weather was going to be like, preparing for rain, uh, this and that, and the other thing. And, you know, having done all those things wrong and thankfully gotten away with it. Um, I, so I did not fall into the trap of getting away with it, reinforcing those bad habits. I, I took a look at outside of myself at the reality of the situation.

[00:06:12] And I said, well, how do I do it better? And I, I, I think, you know, we could all, you know, benefit from doing that in, in every walk of life, you know, whether it's at work or whatever, you know?

[00:06:26] Yeah. The hydration is one that I, I still struggle with. I'll always bring the water and forget to drink it. You know, um, it's one of those things where my solution, um, which maybe it's bad cause it is a little bit wasteful, but, uh, I'll, I'll bring like the plastic water bottles and make sure that I'm drinking at least one of those every so many minutes, you know, or every so many miles. Um, and just kind of force myself to do that.

[00:06:55] That seems, that seems to work for me, but even still, like, especially if I'm running, um, it's, I just, I just forget. And I think that's something a lot of people probably struggle with. Um, so yeah. And I mean, hydration strategy is your, uh, the first skill that you talk about of the five skills and we're going to get into all of them. Uh, but I did want to kind of just kind of go through them one by one, if that's right with you and just ask a few questions after, after checking out the book.

[00:07:21] Um, so one thing that I found interesting that I think a lot of people, um, or it's a mistake. A lot of people make in Colorado, uh, deals with alcohol consumption and caffeine consumption and how that impacts the body in terms of hydration.

[00:07:35] Um, a lot of people, you know, that they're excited to get up, uh, get up to Breckenridge for a big hike the next day. They they're in their hotel room. Maybe they have a few too many beers. Uh, then they hit the trail and then they realize, wow, this, um, is really impacting my experience. We'll say, or similarly, they're trying to get that Alpine start. Maybe they pound the coffee so that they're alert while they're driving to the trailhead. And then they start to notice the effects of that too. Would you mind speaking a little bit on that?

[00:08:00] Absolutely. Um, so yes. So, you know, you know, the old saying, but at least when I was in college, uh, if it's clear it's beer. Um, and so, so alcohol is a diuretic. Um, and, uh, and so, so if you have one, it's not a big deal. Um, uh, the night before a big hike, but, um, but if you're, if you're, you know, pounding several or more,

[00:08:24] then, uh, and you're, you're, you're, you're diuresing or you're, you're peeing out probably a lot more volume than you put in and you're waking up the next day, you know, that that's the hangover effect. You know, uh, you're dehydrated, you know, to a point. And so your cells are already kind of shrunken down and dehydrated. And now you're about to waste a lot more body water on this effort that you're doing. Maybe when you're 22, you can, you can, you can do it. You can get away with it. You're, you're pretty durable at that point.

[00:08:53] But if you're 32 or 42, you don't bounce back so well and, and, or your performance just sucks or, you know, what have you. Uh, but, but it's a, it's a horrible, uh, start to at least in it, you know, a moderate or higher ambitious hike. Um, caffeine, same thing. Uh, so, you know, a little bit is, is fine. Uh, you know, I'm, I'm myself a coffee lover. I don't think I could ever live without, you know, a good,

[00:09:23] slug a coffee in the morning, but that's it. Um, and so you're, you're liable to pee out more than you drank, um, with, with the, with the coffee or whatever form of caffeine you're, you're consuming. And, and so you're starting, you're giving yourself a, you're starting off with sort of a demerit, if you will, um, already when you, when you begin those, those hikes. Is there a recommended amount of caffeine to kind of cut yourself off at?

[00:09:49] Um, I would say, you know, eight to 10 ounces of coffee should be plenty. And as long as you're drinking water with it, then you're, you'll balance out whatever you're peeing and then, you know, you'll top yourself off. Uh, anything beyond that, if you're doing a, you know, I forget what they call it in Starbucks, you know, the, the big one, uh, or, you know, these 24 ounces or whatever is probably too much.

[00:10:12] Uh, it's not, you know, uh, it, uh, it, it, it, it, it's a lot of people who don't drink water and they drink coffee all day and you're like, well, I'm drinking coffee, you know, but, but they're chronically dehydrated, uh, because of it. And, uh, even though there's water, you know, it's, it's just brown water with caffeine in it, but it's, it just, it's just sets you up to, to pee out more than you take care. It's interesting too. Like, um, I used to do quite a bit of like long distance running and a lot of those supplements come with caffeine.

[00:10:42] Right. And it's interesting how that, I mean, there have been multiple times where I'm like, you know, any, any of the bigger runs where I'm really trying to be pushing myself. Um, maybe I'll get to start cramping, you know, and a lot of that deals with that dehydration. And I would imagine it's probably because I've had 300 milligrams, 400 milligrams of caffeine in a pretty short amount of time just to kind of get in that good headspace to run. Right. Right. It's the, you know, push yourself for performance over, you know, whatever it's going to do.

[00:11:11] Makes sense. Yeah. Um, so we talked about what you shouldn't do before you do a big hike. Uh, how, how would you approach hydration in a responsible way? Um, maybe that night before, uh, you're going to hit the trail.

[00:11:23] Yeah, I, yeah, definitely. Um, you know, even if you're drinking, uh, a reasonable amount, uh, definitely, you know, not over hydrates cause you're, you'll be up peeing all night, but, uh, but, but definitely hydrate along with, with every, you know, meal, uh, through the day before, uh, the amounts different for everybody.

[00:11:45] You know, you know, so I can't really make a cross the board recommendation. Um, but, you know, two good cups of water with dinner, maybe one before you go to sleep. Um, and it should be enough. Um, nothing terribly, you know, uh, you know, not having to do, you know, three liters beforehand or something like that. Again, you'll be, you'll be, you'll be, you'll be peeing all night. Is there a downside of, uh, drinking too much water beforehand?

[00:12:14] Absolutely. Well, drinking too much water period in any circumstance can be really dangerous. Uh, so if you, if you treat your, your body, so you, you dilute your soul, sodium, your salt in your, in your bloodstream. Um, so if you think of us as like, uh, an empty vessel, you know, let's say eight ounce glass with, uh, you know, a few pinches of salt in it and, and some water, and now you add a lot more water.

[00:12:39] What's the concentration of the salt now as to, you know, as opposed to before you added all that extra water to it. And so when the sodium level drops, uh, then that, that's, that can be fatal actually.

[00:12:54] Um, and so we've, it's normally seen in, uh, ultra marathon runners, uh, you know, people who are hiking in the desert for long periods of time where there's a lot of sweating, a lot of salt, uh, is taken away from the body and they're drinking just salt free water, you know, without any added electrolytes. So that's the, the most common situation when it's, when, uh, exercise induced hyponatremia is seen EIH. Uh, but you can induce it yourself.

[00:13:22] You know, we see plenty of people in the ICU who, you know, uh, either through psychosis or some intentional thing they've got going on. The, you know, they drank like, you know, two, three gallons of water over the course of a day, day and a half or whatever. Um, and so then their sodium comes in and you're like, Holy crap. And they're seizing. And, you know, there's a lot of brain damage you can get from that. Wow. Absolutely. Yeah. Too much of anything is, is, is, you know, it'll hurt you. Yeah.

[00:13:49] I think that touches on two common pitfalls you'll see out here. Um, especially with some of these, like the big 14 or hikes, when people try to, they have their whole ritual the night before, uh, what they eat and what they drink. And a lot of times they'll be drinking a lot cause they assume that more water means you're more hydrated and more ready to take on the trail. And in reality, like you said, maybe that's not the case. Uh, often that's probably not the case. Um, and then also you see a lot of people that hike and only drink water.

[00:14:17] And then, yeah, like you said, no, no, with no electrolyte supplement in there. Um, similar thing where that D dehydration still like, um, kicks in, I guess maybe not dehydration, but, uh, yeah, still, still see the negative effects. There, um, how much water should somebody be drinking or I guess bringing with them on like, let's say like a pretty basic five mile hike that you expect it to take maybe two to three hours. How much water should somebody be bringing?

[00:14:45] So, yeah, so that's, that's going to wind up being maybe, uh, so I'm going to go with, with milliliters, uh, just cause it's easier. You know, if it's, if it's a low level hike, you know, if it's a low, you know, like a light to moderate hike for five miles, I would do a quarter of a liter, you know, roughly a cup per hour. Okay. So not much. Yeah. Not a lot.

[00:15:11] You probably take a liter, uh, you know, Nalgene with you, you'll be, you'll be golden. Um, and you probably have, you know, leftover plenty of leftover after that. Um, and so, um, and you, you may have planned to mention it, but I'll, I'll mention it here that, you know, there's, there's four big determinants of hydration need, uh, for any hike.

[00:15:35] And so that's, you know, hiker speed, which means how much work you're doing, um, elevation gain again, uh, a, a, so at least a, a, a tangible, uh, measure of, of work. Humidity, lower the humidity, the higher the, the, uh, the hydration needs, uh, and, and temperature, of course.

[00:15:58] And so depending on the grade of, of all four of those things, uh, will dictate a higher and higher and higher, uh, amount of, of water per hour as those elements get higher and higher. And, and again, you, you may have planned to mention that I believe my book is the only book I've, I know of that I'm aware of that allows you to use those four elements.

[00:16:25] You know, what is your average hiking speed and, you know, what are the, what are the elements of this hike, the elevation gain, the, uh, the temperature and the humidity and plug those things in and give you pretty much exactly how much you're going to need for any hike. I don't care if you're in the Phoenix area, if you're in Alaska, if you're, you know, in the Northeast, uh, it doesn't matter. You plug in those things and you, you've got how much water I'm going to need for this thing.

[00:16:55] Yeah. I thought that you have a little chart in there. Um, that I thought was pretty cool. I was, I spent a little bit of time looking at that and just kind of seeing the different, uh, you know, the way that different factors impact how much water you need. Um, so I guess kind of a quick question is probably a very quick answer to this. Um, but would you mind talking about how, like just your starting elevation alone impacts, uh, water needs?

[00:17:19] You know, it's actually in the, in the near term. So I did mention, uh, altitude. And, uh, so if you're even starting at 10,000 and you're going to, and you're going to hike to 14, let's say, as long as you are not at that starting elevation for more than 24 to 36 hours, it's negligible.

[00:17:44] Uh, negligible, uh, negligible how much extra you would need. So it's generally not a factor, but if you're starting out at sea level and you're slowly working your way up and up and up, um, as in, you spending more time at that 10,000, just to acclimate, the longer you're there, the more hydration needs you will need in those first four to five days.

[00:18:09] Um, there, there was a, uh, US military study on that where they, they took, uh, took just volunteers and they put them at altitude and they measured their, their, their body weights and how much water they were drinking. This, that, and the other thing. And, uh, yeah. And they found out as long as you're going to be there short term, not matter. Doesn't matter.

[00:18:28] Yeah. That's always something that gets brought up with, um, so many people coming from out of state to hike in Colorado. Um, I would imagine a lot of the people listening even are from out of outside of Colorado and just curious about what, what you have to say. Um, so yeah, that's, that's why I wanted to ask that question. Um, so yeah, don't drink a lot of alcohol when you get excited about being in Breckenridge. Don't go out partying the night before.

[00:18:50] And, you know, for, for the out of towners who are going to come up to those, you know, those altitudes, certainly altitude sicknesses, a whole other situation that they should talk to their doc, you know, back home about preventing. Um, so I guess I have one last question on water and this is one because I'm honestly like, I am not very familiar, uh, with the entire process of sterilizing water because I always just tend to bring water with me.

[00:19:17] Um, that's always been my strategy. Uh, but what is the best way, uh, for the average person to sterilize water when they're on a hike? Yeah. So, uh, so the, it's hard because if you're not bringing any equipment with you, then that's, you know, that, that's a limiting factor. Um, boiling is the gold standard. Um, and that, that pretty much kills everything, but, you know, bringing a jet boil and the, and the fuel with you and everything else, it's just, you know, it's a pain.

[00:19:47] You know, it takes time and then you got to cool it down to drink it. And, you know, like who wants to drink boiling hot water? Uh, you know, if you're on the move. So if you're planning to collect in the field, then you'd want something that's quick. So, so the, uh, the chlorine tablets will do a decent job, uh, but it doesn't hit all the parasites.

[00:20:08] Um, iodine just, uh, same thing. Um, it hits a different area, um, of, of, of, of its, um, of the parasites that it doesn't cover as opposed to the chlorine. But it, you know, the taste is just, you know, you want to vomit. Um, what I personally use, what I've found is, is, uh, is best for me. Um, so there are, um, I don't know if I should mention the, the brand.

[00:20:38] Yeah. Uh, so GRAYL, G-R-A-Y-L. Um, so, you know, a lot of people are listening or familiar with this thing. So you fill up the outer container with water from the stream and then you put the inner container at the top off, of course, uh, and you press it through and it comes through the filter. That filters everything that, that guarantees the water inside of that is good to go.

[00:21:02] I use that to fill my Nalgene and then I take it apart, fill it again and, you know, fill everything I've got, including it. And then I'm going, uh, so I don't just use it for what it itself can contain. Uh, and so that is my, my personal method because, uh, but I do also have the Aqua tabs as a backup.

[00:21:28] If, you know, if the Grail goes, you know, belly up and, uh, what else do I got? Um, cause the last thing I want is, you know, well, now we have this outbreak right now, it's like Lospora, but, uh, but, but you can get a very similar, you know, uh, experience with, uh, all the things that are out there. Yeah. Yeah. One thing I've heard, um, I've had several friends that have been, been hiking or camping and they'll get hit with some pretty nasty stuff.

[00:21:54] And I think the mistake that all of them have made is that they'll run it through the purification system, but then they'll have dirty water on maybe like the nozzle that they're drinking out of or something like that, where it's like, even though the water has been mostly filtered. Like there's still dirty water around and they're not watching for that type of contamination too. Right. Right. Right. Right. It's, it's very easy to cross contaminate, um, hand to mouth, et cetera. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:22:21] So let's get into the second skill here, managing body temperature. Um, I mean, that's something that in Colorado, you see, you see it a lot, which is the cold, cold winters that we have and the colder temperatures on top of a lot of these peaks when you might start a hike. That's, uh, you know, significantly lower elevation and then get up there and suddenly it's 30 degrees colder than you were anticipating. Right.

[00:22:44] Um, also seeing a lot of this in a grand Canyon this summer with, uh, deaths down once people hike down into the Canyon where I think there were like maybe four in June. I want to say, um, where people don't realize that the Canyon is going to be 30 degrees hotter at the bottom of the Canyon opposed to what it was on the rim. Um, so, I mean, it's obviously a hugely important, uh, skill to have. Uh, what do you think the biggest issue is whenever it comes to managing body temperature that maybe people overlook?

[00:23:14] Yeah, well, certainly hydration and heat illness go hand in hand, uh, but it's not the only element. Uh, you know, and so you want to mitigate your, your exposure, you know, so, so trying to, you know, take them separately. It's trying to avoid heat illness. You want to, you know, maximize your heat, um, heat, you know, dumping your heat as much as possible.

[00:23:40] Um, which means sweating and, uh, and in, uh, minimizing any kind of, uh, accumulation of heat. So, so accumulation of heat you get from the sun. So, uh, wearing dark colored clothing, you're, you're asking to absorb, you know, a lot of the sun rays and the heat. That goes along with it. So always light colored clothes. Uh, I am a long sleeve, long pant guy.

[00:24:07] Um, just because the sun beating on your skin will, it'll burn eventually. Uh, even if you have sunscreen on, you're going to sweat all out of that off and then you're going to burn. And then that interferes with your sweat, um, mechanism. So I usually go with the super light, thin, uh, polyester tops, um, that have, you know, SPF, um, rating on it.

[00:24:29] And, um, and that helps wick away the, the sweat and helps maximize the, uh, the evaporation of the sweat, which is really what cools us off. Um, hydration, of course, and then finding any source for shade. Now, and all that depends on when you leave for your hike.

[00:24:48] You know, if you, if you're doing most of your hiking earlier in the day or later in the day, the sun is at an angle and more liable to, to shoot some, uh, some, uh, some shade onto the trail in some way, shape or form over a tree or a rock or whatever it is. Uh, uh, so there's a lot more shade opportunities than if you were hiking in the middle of the day when the sun is straight over and doesn't matter what is on the side of the trail. It's coming straight down at you. So you got all of that.

[00:25:18] Um, and so, so, you know, so leaving early enough so that the, the maximum temperature is, is, you know, going to come maybe at the end of the hike or so, but, but you're, you're hiking with, you know, the lowest temperatures possible of the day. Um, uh, behind you, you know, before that peak of the, of the, of the temp of the day, um, the light color clothing and of course enough hydration. Now, if you're doing a rim to rim, I've not done it.

[00:25:46] So I don't know how long it takes to get to the Canyon from the rim. Uh, so I don't, I don't know how, you know, how early in the morning you'd have to leave, you know, the rim to get down there so that you can accomplish that. Um, but, but, uh, but certainly, you know, those who are leading up to that kind of hike will do that research. I'm hoping and find that out. Yeah.

[00:26:11] Um, so, uh, in terms of, I guess, summer, so, uh, maybe focusing on getting too hot as far as managing body temperature goes. Um, if you start to get too hot on the trail and you start to overheat and like, what are, what are the strategies? And I would assume like getting into shade is one, but maybe no shades available. So like, what are the strategies for cooling yourself down? Uh, slow down. Uh, so if all, if that's all you got, uh, so the, the faster we go, the more heat we generate.

[00:26:41] Uh, so slow down, um, you know, again, try to find any semblance of, of shade possible, but like I said, there may not be shade, uh, available. Um, hydrate, uh, if you have extra water, you can put it over your head, not dump it irresponsibly because you want to be drinking a lot of that too, but put some on your head. And, uh, and, you know, let that interface with the skin and cool off your, um, your skin.

[00:27:10] Uh, and, and it cools off the blood that's coming up to the surface. Uh, so it definitely helps. Uh, you can rub some of that in your arms and such, but slowing down is probably the most pragmatic thing to do to prevent accumulation of heat. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I think, uh, one thing I've always heard is to bring like some sort of little towel or something that you can put on your neck. Like soak it and put it on your neck. So you're, uh, maybe, uh, hanging onto the water a little longer.

[00:27:39] Um, so I guess to flip, flip to a cold weather though. Yep. Uh, what's a good strategy for warming yourself up if you're getting cold? So the opposite speed up, um, speed up, zip up, add a layer. Um, and so, you know, in cold weather, we should always anticipate it's going to get colder, even if it doesn't.

[00:28:00] And to come, come with a base on a mid, I usually bring a second mid, um, and, uh, and some type of either puffy or, or wind layer, um, depending on the conditions, uh, and the altitude I'm anticipating going to. Uh, so yeah, so heating up means again, the opposite of, of the hot weather hike. So you want to maximize retention of heat and minimize your, your loss of heat.

[00:28:27] So, so seal it in, um, add a layer, zip up, um, speed up if you can and, um, and you'll generate and, and maintain more. Mm. Um, so, uh, in your book, there's a story from Kilimanjaro and, uh, I believe that that is about, um, managing body temperature. Uh, would you mind maybe sharing, sharing what happened there? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:52] Uh, so we were in between, uh, as, uh, Barranco, uh, I might be getting these names wrong now. It's been a few years. Uh, uh, uh, uh, Barranco, uh, and, um, oh God, the, the, the staging camp at 15,000 feet before you, you do your summit. Uh, so we, we went up the wall, um, and, uh, and got to the top. We were all high-fiving everything else. The weather was great until then.

[00:29:22] Then the clouds just like that came in. Like, oh, that's weird. You know, just cloud cover or whatever. And we started going toward the next camp and this monsoon came over us. And we stopped and we all put on the rain gear and everything else, but there was so much rain. It, it rained right through my, my rain layers. And it soaked through everything.

[00:29:48] And so for the last several miles before camp, my, you know, my boots were sloshing and everything else. And I'm thinking like, how the F am I going to get to, to summit tonight with all these wet clothes? That was, that was it. That's all I had. And, um, and so I kept on thinking like, how the hell am I going to dry out?

[00:30:12] Um, and so we get up to that camp and wind is whipping. And so we're soaked all the way through, at least I was in, um, and I'm losing heat like crazy. I tried to grab a, um, uh, a hot chocolate or something like that. Just try to heat myself up and just wasn't working. And I was losing fine motor skills. I couldn't hold the cup. And it was like, oh my God, here we go. Here we go.

[00:30:40] And, uh, so I was like, all right, I got to get out of these wet clothes. You know, I should have done that first, but what I want to do is just drink something hot. And, um, and so I, I made it to the tent and it was only like, you know, 30, 40 feet, but man, that was the hardest 30, 40 feet to traverse. Cause it was just, I, my muscles just weren't moving. They weren't working. And, uh, so I just get into this, into the tent, throw all the wet stuff off, go through

[00:31:08] my laundry, my, my, my dirty stuff. I'm like, what's dry. I don't care how much I smell, uh, right now. And I had a chamois that I had, uh, cause I didn't want to bring a towel. Uh, but I had this like, you know, you ring it out and the chamois dry. So I had that and I, I, you know, quickly, uh, dried myself off and put the dirty stuff on in numerous layers. And, uh, and finally the shivering stopped and, and I got my, my, um, my fine motor skills back.

[00:31:37] So I knew I was, I was coming back. Uh, and sometimes when the shivering stops and you're, you're, you're, you're not getting better as far as your fine motor skills, you're actually going to more hypothermic. Um, but I, I thought I was about moderate hypothermic at the time. It could have gone either way. Um, but, but had I not thought, all right, I got to get out of these wet clothes now, um, then, then it could have gone the other way. Dang. Yeah.

[00:32:03] That's, I mean, that's a scary, uh, scary situation to find you're in or yourself in at 15,000 feet. Like that's. Yeah. And it's weird that that afternoon just all of a sudden, again, as, as quickly as the clouds came in that morning, they just gone. And the sun was just like crazy hot. And so everybody just threw all their wet shit out onto the, onto the tents and everything else just to dry.

[00:32:30] So, so eventually it would have warmed up, but it would have been way late in the game. Yeah. Jeez. Is, uh, is that hike, uh, pretty warm, uh, even despite the elevation? Like, is it a pretty warm hike generally? It depends on the season. Uh, we were on the edge, uh, just before the, the rainy season. So it was in February, I think we were, uh, so it wasn't supposed to be raining.

[00:32:56] Uh, so some groups when they go, you know, well into, you know, well away from the rainy season, then they have open skies pretty much the whole time. And yeah, it can be pretty warm, really warm because, you know, again, like I said, when, when the clouds went away, man, it got scorching hot. Yeah. Yeah. But it's been curious because it's like, um, you know, you always think like any tall mountain, extremely cold, but obviously maybe not the case with Kilimanjaro. Right. Right. Definitely dependent on the, uh, on the sun. Definitely.

[00:33:26] Yeah. Um, very cool. Um, so let's get into, uh, this, uh, third, uh, skill that hikers need to have. And this one surprised me kind of, because it's not something that I've ever really thought about, um, too much, I guess. Uh, maybe it's just not something that, um, has been a feature on a lot of the, on a lot of the 14 or hikes and another more serious hikes I've done, but crossing waterways as a skill that all hikers need to have.

[00:33:52] Um, so I guess my big question is if somebody does happen to like encounter a stream, uh, maybe that they weren't expecting, or maybe that's flowing much faster than they thought, uh, it was going to be, uh, when they get to it, um, what are the basics for making a safe crossing? So you can never tell where the bottom is. Uh, that's the unfortunate part.

[00:34:15] Um, and you, you can, you know, it, and depending if it's really just moving along, it's mostly white and you can't see, you know, how deep it's going to be. But, um, but if you're fortunate enough to see some clear spots where you can, you can spot the bottom, then, um, then you might want to give it a go. And, and, but, but looking for any signs where you don't have to go in, uh, so find a spot

[00:34:45] where you might see a little, um, sandbar in the middle of it, or, uh, you know, there's some big rocks that you can, might be able to step on or what have you, um, that looks safe enough and sturdy enough to, to not wobble under your feet. Um, so any way you can avoid getting in the waters is the first priority. Uh, the, you know, the second priority is finding if you have to go in the, the shallowest

[00:35:12] spot possible now straight on streams, you know, going straight down the middle is the deepest part. And so you can tell, I guess, as you're crossing, like, all right, it's not, not terrible. I'm at the middle. It looks pretty good here. I'm, I'm at a safe depth. You pretty much count on the rest of it, you know, going to the other side is going to be better.

[00:35:39] Um, if it's a curved stream or river, it is the outer part of the curve that is the deepest. Um, and so you don't find until the end, uh, which is something I found in, uh, in, in Banff, uh, in, uh, September 24, um, the, uh, the, the, the, the outer band, like it got

[00:36:03] real, it got, you know, I don't want to say it, but, uh, it got deep enough to get sensitive in a certain spot. And, uh, it was, that was way above where my, my threshold is like the no-go zone. But I was like three, four feet from the, from the opposite bank. And I'm like, you know, F it. I'm just gonna, I just gotta keep on going here because there was no other way to cross. Dang. Yeah.

[00:36:28] Water is one of those things where it's, uh, easy to underestimate how powerful it is. And what is it like a few inches of water can knock someone off their feet, right? Like it's like, it does not take much at all. Yeah. It's a combination of depth and speed. And so the, the, the, the, the kinetic energy equation, uh, it, it, uh, it's a velocity squared, you know, it's mass time velocity squared.

[00:36:53] So the, the velocity probably counts more than, um, than the, you know, than any other element. And, um, and so if, if it's a, if it's a slow moving river or stream, what have you, we're good to go. So, you know, as, as you, you guys have probably, you know, in Colorado, you see all the time, the snow melt, you know, the spring till about mid summer, just crazy that downhill, uh, trajectory of all that water that accumulates in these, these waterways.

[00:37:22] And that's the most dangerous, most treacherous time of year to do it. Um, and then, uh, and, uh, and, you know, and, and you can still do everything right and, and still get knocked over. Um, and so it's, it's really, it's really the most perilous, uh, and again, a lot more people drown in the back country than most people really appreciate. Yeah. Um, so let's say you get knocked over. What do you do?

[00:37:47] So you, you never want to go in without undoing all your straps, you know, see, you go in, everything's loose so that if God forbid you do get knocked over, you ditch that pack now, because that will be an anchor, uh, and that will pull you down and that'll, you know, you're done. Um, the next thing is to, to, you know, try and get yourself feet first going downstream,

[00:38:11] uh, because there's going to be inevitably rocks and logs and all kinds of different debris in there. There, you know, you're going to get hit in the head, you know, head trauma, you get hand or foot caught in, uh, underneath one of those things that call them strainers. Um, and so if you're, if you go feet first, kind of like, I don't know, kind of back with your knees bent and your, your feet forward, you can kind of bounce off of these things and maybe influence

[00:38:39] your trajectory some, um, and at least protect your head and your torso and, and obviously keep your airway above the water. Uh, and of course, you know, paddle like hell, uh, toward one side or the other. Um, and, um, yeah, and a little praying probably helps too. Um, so what are, uh, what are some signs that, um, the water would be too risky to cross, um, to the point where like,

[00:39:05] you wouldn't even want to even think you're going to attempt it at all whatsoever. Like is not being able to see the bottom of the river or stream. Is that like the first dead giveaway or what other signs are you looking for? Not a guarantee. And it might, it might take getting in, but if it looks like it's coming over, you know, well over your knee coming toward mid thigh, that's, that's a, that's a troubling area. And especially again, you know, if you, if it's a

[00:39:31] strain on straight on waterway and you haven't even gotten to the middle yet and it's company, it's over your knees, that's going to be a bad, it's going to be a bad day. Um, more likely than not. And, um, I happened to get away with it, but, uh, but that, that was, uh, you know, that was not something I would want to reproduce or try again. I got lucky.

[00:39:55] Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Um, but yeah, so that's the, that's the cutoff really, you know, they say even below the knees, but you know, I, I think most of us, you know, we have good, strong legs. Uh, and if you're doing it right, you're leaning into the oncoming water, you're bracing yourself forward or you have your, um, you know, some type of branch or your hiking pole, if you use them behind you again, pushing yourself forward and into the, into the

[00:40:22] water, you can get away with a little bit more depth, but, but it's a real, you know, listen to your gut and, and, you know, come humble and listen to your gut. Yeah. Um, yeah. Like I said, I mean, water's, I find that to be the scariest aspect of, of back country. Um, so, uh, we talked about what to do if you fall into the water, you slip and fall. Uh, what if someone else does

[00:40:47] that you're with? So that, that, you know, uh, that happens, you know, it happens in a lot in the, in the headlines. Uh, one person, uh, gets knocked over and one fatality turns into two. Um, and so trying to, there's not the, the, whatever ground is adjacent to the bank

[00:41:12] of the, uh, the waterway is not necessarily forgiving for, for running alongside and trying to extend a hand or rope or branch or something. But if there is, you know, I used to be a life guard back in the day and there was a reach row, throw go. Um, and so if you can reach them great, if you can throw something to them and pull them in great. If, if it happens to be a situation where you can get in a canoe and, you know, paddle over there, do that. And

[00:41:41] if you got none of that and you got to go, then go. But again, that, that could, that could turn out bad for you. Yeah. So, uh, but reach, throw, row, go is the, uh, the act, you know, the, whatever the, the saying that used to be. Yeah. We were just talking about, um, the tragic situation in Ohio on the podcast, uh, earlier this week where five people died after one person was in struggling to swim, two people go out to help them. They start struggling. Two more people go out, they start struggling. And then all five of those people

[00:42:10] ended up dead. Um, yeah. Also I will say too, I've seen, uh, that sometimes nowadays, I think, uh, you see, don't go where it's like, if you don't have, if you don't have the training, you're better off, you know, going to find somebody that does, you know? Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. It would be a very difficult situation to be in. Yeah. I can't imagine. I can't imagine. Yeah. Yeah. No, I wouldn't want to watch my friend, my relative, my loved one.

[00:42:38] Yeah. So, um, I, I, I probably want to die along with them, uh, rather than watch them. Uh, that's me. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I think I would, it would be hard to sit on the shoreline and, and watch that unfold. Uh, I think most people would probably say that too. Um, so let's get into a number four, the number four skill. Um, and this is that people need to be

[00:43:03] able to manage, um, moving around heights and, and, uh, avoid falling. Right. Um, in Colorado, this is something that, I mean, it makes the headlines at least once a week where someone gets hurt from a fall. I was just writing about someone on, uh, Quandary Ridge's Westridge, uh, route today or Quandary Peak's, uh, Westridge route today that fell 30 feet. Um, and then

[00:43:28] tumbled about 200 feet, ended up with a broken leg and a head injury. Um, so yeah, I mean, it's, it's a big risk, you know? And I mean, oftentimes it probably is kind of an obvious risk, I would think as well, where people, you know, you see it right there. Like it's impossible not to notice that you're by a big drop off or that you're on a really exposed route. Um, so with that said though, what do you think tends to be the most common factor when it comes to fatal

[00:43:55] falls? Yeah, the studies show that the, the most common route of falling is people going off trail and, uh, you know, the, the, the trail is designed to be in a stable place and, you know, pretty much, you know, the earth won't crumble underneath you unless you're, you're, you're at a, you know, at the edge of something. Um, and you, you've got, you know, a foot and a half of, of trail

[00:44:20] before a drop off, you know, things, the earth can, can crumble under your feet and you can just fall with it. Uh, but, uh, but going off trail is, is one of the most common ways that people end up falling, uh, going past barriers. Um, you know, every year it seems, uh, we're seeing people, um, falling off of the, the falls, um, in Yosemite, I forget if it's Nevada falls or, um,

[00:44:48] I forget the exact, um, uh, falls, but they've got big gate, you know, big gate there to prevent people from going. Inevitably people go over. Yeah. Same thing with the Grand Canyon. Right. Right. Every year, every year, dip their leg in the water and they want to go a little further, this is safe. And then, uh, you know, uh, and so that's more water, but, but it's,

[00:45:11] it's water taking them to a fall that they cannot survive. Um, but, um, but then, you know, it, it, it tends to be interestingly, you know, when, when you're, you're going up, you know, uh, steep hikes, um, it's actually the downhill that, that people will, will usually fall on, uh, rather than the uphill, um, probably cause it's, it's, it's a harder on the knees and, and, you know, it's, we, we don't normally train for those down the steep downhills. And,

[00:45:40] uh, so they can catch us, uh, in a number of different ways, but then there's the, is there, the, the, the selfies on places like angels landing and whatever, you know, turning you back to the vet, to the Canyon, you know, um, and it will naturally take you off balance. And then, you know, things happen. Yeah. Yeah. I saw that. I liked that you included the selfie aspect in the book. When I saw that, I was like, you know, I mean, it's kind of, it's not funny obviously,

[00:46:07] but it is one of those things where it's like, that wasn't a problem 20 years ago. Right. Every, every year you hear a story about someone taking the selfie and, you know, it does throw you off balance. You're trying to focus on like getting your face in the right spot. And um, right. Yeah. It throws you off balance for sure. Yeah. And yeah, that makes sense on the downhill aspect too. Um, with, uh, even on like some of the class three class, class four 14 or

[00:46:33] climbs, uh, where you're trying to manage going down rockier terrain during that descent, it just feels like, you know, obviously gravity is now going, you're not pushing against gravity, go up. You're trying to push with gravity to go down. And yeah, that's, I've always dreaded the down climb more than, more than the, uh, up climb little bear peak comes to mind as one where that was, it's class four and trying to get back down the hourglass. Um, and just like, it just feels like

[00:47:01] you're just almost ready to fall there. You know, um, what do you think, uh, what are some good, uh, ways to prevent falling? I think just, um, you know, it's, it's the shortest chapter. Um, and, and, and really just to know what you're getting into and have that conscious mindset of, all right, you know, if you're going up to angels landing, let's say again, uh, you know, no, you know, that's a long way down. Uh, and it's not

[00:47:29] something I want to experience. Let's, uh, you know, I can take, I have asked somebody else to take a picture of me with my back to the Canyon instead of doing the, uh, doing the selfie. Um, or, you know, just being aware, like I could fall pretty much at any time during this, you know, treacherous, uh, uh, terrain. Uh, and, you know, in, in just the awareness, I think will help the instinct to,

[00:47:58] to kick in, to stay a little further away from the edge. Uh, you know, you got like chipmunks and all kinds of different little animals, um, at these, these peaks and such. And, you know, it'll startle you like, wow, you know, and, and you don't need to be, you know, three inches from the edge when one of these little guys comes along for a morsel of something you might've dropped, uh, and startle you or whatever. Uh, I had a marmot startle me, uh, right in the middle of devil's

[00:48:26] causeway, um, which I don't know if you're familiar with that hike, but it's a pretty narrow land bridge, you know, about three, four feet wide and I'm just walking across it and all of a sudden a marmot pops up and Mike looks right at me and I was like, yeah. Um, but, uh, yeah, that comes to mind with the wildlife when you mentioned that. Yeah. Yeah. I also, I also appreciated that you put, um, being aware of your experience in there as something that can help prevent falls. Um,

[00:48:52] I think that's something that you see a lot where, uh, either people get themselves into a situation where maybe they're not mentally prepared to be in an exposed place, um, or they get themselves in a situation where they might have to use some rock climbing skills, but they've never been rock climbing before. Right. Right. These, yeah, these, uh, these, these, these, you know, class four, uh, uh, hikes seem like awesome, but you know, they will absolutely suck if you don't know

[00:49:18] what you're doing. And a lot of people will just get themselves into more trouble than they need to be. And, uh, certainly working your way up through that with someone who's willing to kind of show you what they know, what they've learned along the way, what the, what nots to do and things like that. Um, that, that's the best way to, to approach those. So let's, um, now that we've talked about the, uh, maybe the shortest chapter in your book,

[00:49:44] shortest section, uh, let's talk about the longest section. Um, which, uh, I noticed it's, it's, uh, it's a long, a long part of the book. I mean, it's like over a hundred pages, I think. Right. Um, but the fifth skill is land navigation. Um, everyone needs to be familiar with that. So, um, yeah, I guess, uh, I have a feeling that the answer is going to be the same as, uh, as it was for

[00:50:11] another question I had, but, uh, when it comes to getting lost on the trail, uh, what are some of the most common mistakes that hikers make and what are some factors that contribute to them getting lost? Um, well, relying on, um, relying on the, the original plan is probably a big mistake. Um, and it, it, you know, the, the best thing we can do when we, when we know we're, we're lost,

[00:50:42] stop, reconnect to the earth. And if you've got a map either electronically or analog, look back, where were you, where should you be and what is around you? And, you know, what can you see? Is there a, is there a peak off in the distance? All right. So that's, uh, that might, you know, that, that, that's the tallest mountain there. What is the tallest mountain on this map?

[00:51:09] And try to orient yourself to these things. Um, over there is a lake. Uh, all right. So is that, you know, that kind of thing and trying to reconnect yourself with and reorient yourself. What time of day is it? And where is the sun? Um, is, is the sun, you know, is it the morning and the sun's at an angle? Well, the sun's trying to tell you where East and West is, uh, when it's at an

[00:51:35] angle. And so going by that will really help. Um, and so trying to just say, all right, screw everything else. Where am I? Where was I? And how do I get back to this trail? Um, and, um, and that, that, that's probably the best, you know, overall advice, uh, rather than, you know, just forge ahead,

[00:51:57] keep, keep moving and you keep, could keep moving away from the trail, uh, where you need to be. Um, but, uh, and then, you know, certainly, and so the chapter was long because I wanted to really focus on all the, all those celestial and terrestrial cues that, you know, we should be paying attention to

[00:52:23] and constantly referencing on whatever navigation solution we're using. I personally like paper maps, not because I'm so damn old, but, um, but the batteries don't run out on those things ever. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and so as I'm going, you know, if the, the trail takes a left turn, I'm looking at the map. All right. So left turn. All right. So I'm right there. And so, and then,

[00:52:51] you know, and then it goes for a little while and then, you know, maybe makes a, you know, a fork. All right. So look at the map. All right. So that's the fork. All right. So I'm going right here. Okay. And so if I'm ever, you know, find myself where I'm like, Oh crap, where the hell am I? All right. So I, I made the left. All right. I went to the fork. All right. So I passed that. All right. All right. So I'm right here. So, all right. The sun's, you know, toward, you know, it's 5 PM now. And all right. So that's West. The sun's out there. All right. So, all right.

[00:53:20] So that's West. I'm here. All right. So I'm right around here. So if I just keep on going this way, I'm going to hit that trail again. Um, it's that kind of thing. And so just stop, think, don't panic. That's probably the worst thing you could do. Uh, and, um, and the panic leads to, you know, like, Oh no, I'm just going to keep on going. And, you know, eventually I'll, you know, I'll find my way or whatever. And don't be stubborn, be humble, think, and look around you.

[00:53:47] The earth's trying to give you all kinds of clues, just tune into them. And so that's really what, what a lot of the, the first part of that chapter was really dedicated to, um, without getting all into the specifics, but, um, and then of course, demystifying analog, uh, uh, uh, compasses and the two types, the orienteering and the lensatic. And so they're, they're, they're, they're doing the

[00:54:13] same thing, but they're slightly different animals. Um, and then of course, uh, the paper maps and translating what your compass is saying and pointing to magnetic North and translating that to what your, what your map is oriented to and true North. Um, so, and so how to translate those two is pretty easy. And, um, and so it's just going through the, the basic skills. It is not an exhaustive

[00:54:42] land navigation course by any measure of the imagination. It is just the basics. Uh, and I just introduced those five skills that really just can get you anywhere to and from, and you can figure out where you are. You can triangulate your location. You can do all kinds of different things. Um, as long as you start with the basics and then you move on to the next skill and then you move and you can, you can pretty much find your way around anywhere. Yeah. I found, I found that part

[00:55:11] of the book very interesting and very helpful. Like I was learning, I was learning quite a bit through that whole section. Um, so when people get lost, I guess, what mistake do they make that leads to them being lost? Um, if you were to highlight like one or two things that, that people really need to avoid doing. Probably not paying attention. Um, and it's easy to get lost in the moment. You know, you want to see, you know, it's funny as, as a hiker, I mean, I was just on a,

[00:55:39] on a backpacking trip through a Canadian Rockies with a friend of mine and I was like, you know, it's the, it's the biggest bitch about hiking though. Um, we got all this beautiful stuff around here, around us, but I got to look down so I don't trip over something and fall on my face. Um, and, uh, and so, you know, but stopping every so often looking around, not only just to see the

[00:56:05] leaves and the chirping and the, you know, this and that and the other thing, but look, pay attention to what's around you. And, and again, referencing, you know, again, going into the situation, like, I don't want to be the person who gets lost today. How do I do that? And so if you're constantly looking at your map, constantly looking at your, your navigation solution, then, uh, and then just always reference what was, what did I just, all right. So I just passed a stream. The stream was

[00:56:34] following the, uh, the trail for a little while and then it kind of went off to the left here or to the, to the West, let's say. All right. So where is that on the map? Or it goes, all right, all right. So that was just there. Okay. Um, and, and you can always, you know, if you get lost later, you'd be like, okay, I know I was there. I know I haven't gotten to this part yet. So I'm between here and here. And, and it really, really helps if you, if you do pay attention to where you've been and where

[00:57:00] your need to go, you know, what's ahead. Um, then you, you, you really greatly drop your chances of getting lost. Yeah. And I think too, uh, you mentioned it during the fall risk, uh, portion of our, of our chat here, but going off trail intentionally, you know, when people do that, um, I feel like that's probably something where, um, or unintentionally, um, where I can lead to problems, especially, I mean, uh, most of my hiking experience in Colorado has been on,

[00:57:30] on the 14 years. So, um, what I always think about is kind of that like rocky area where the trail is not very defined. Um, there is kind of an intended route that you're supposed to take. Uh, but when you get off there, um, you can get lost, even though you can almost see everything, you know, roughly where you are, but you can get lost from that trail and you can, uh, end up cliffed out or in a dangerous situation, um, in that regard. Yeah. Um, you know, I was in Canyonlands

[00:57:57] a couple of years ago and, uh, if it weren't for the Cairns placed by the Rangers, yeah, everything looks like trail out there because there's no dirt. There's no, you know, it's just rock. And, uh, and it's just crazy how easy it would be to get lost. Even if somewhere to displace a Cairn or build a Cairn somewhere, you know, off trail and you're like, okay,

[00:58:23] there's a trail. And then you're done because everything looks the same out there. That was, that was probably scary for me. So I imagine it's the same that you were just saying, you know, when, when everything could pass for the trail at a certain point, you're like, where the hell am I? Yeah. And you're looking for the Cairns, but sometimes they're hard to see. I mean, they're made of rocks and you're surrounded by rocks and maybe they're not that big of a Cairn. So it's like, you're like, is that what I'm supposed to be headed toward? Or, and I mean,

[00:58:50] there've definitely been times when I've gone toward a Cairn that is not an official Cairn and it's gotten me kind of, you know, not where I was supposed to be. Right. Um, trail art. Yeah. Yeah. So I think once somebody has been in a situation where they have to rely on the Cairns, they understand why they say, don't go build Cairns, you know, um, let the, let the Rangers do it and, uh, people that are involved in keeping those trails safe. Um, yeah, awesome.

[00:59:17] I mean, I think that was a great overview of all five of these, uh, all five of these, uh, skills that, that, uh, you have in this book. And I mean, yeah, like I said, I found the book very interesting. Um, I did want to ask you, so you've been to Colorado, I'm assuming, uh, what's your favorite hike in Colorado? Well, I haven't even, you know, scratched the surface in, in, you know, uh, to,

[00:59:42] to even say any, I, most of the hiking I've done was on the front range, uh, from, you know, uh, outside of Denver to Boulder to, uh, uh, uh, Rocky Mountain National Park. Uh, so that's pretty much the extent of my Colorado hiking. I have not gone into further into the range, uh, than that.

[01:00:06] So I couldn't even tell you, but, uh, but in, in my limited experience in Colorado, I really liked, uh, the Lawn Lake Trail in, uh, Rocky Mountain National Park. Really challenging. Uh, it's just like, you know, I don't know, six and a half miles of just uphill. Um, but it was great. Uh, met a few

[01:00:29] Marmots there, um, on the way. And, um, but that, that was a, that was a fun trail and, um, and, and challenging for a C, you know, C level dweller. Uh, cause it's funny, you know, um, my, my buddy who I went backpacking recently with, he, he gets to hike in, in Canada. He lives there

[01:00:50] all the time, twice a week. And no matter how much I try to train at C level and is flat AF out here, uh, there is, you know, every uphill hike is a challenge, uh, because it's like the first time I ever did it. Uh, you know, and so, so that's, uh, that's my disadvantage, but I definitely want to go further into Colorado. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Hey, Rocky Mountain National Park is Rocky Mountain

[01:01:19] National Park for a reason, you know, right. Some of the most beautiful hiking in the state, state for sure. Um, what about worldwide, I guess then to, uh, where's your favorite place to hike? Uh, I, I abroad have only been to, to, uh, Tanzania to do Kilimanjaro. I am not a big go abroad kind of guy. You know, I, I was constantly searching, uh, for somebody to do it with. And, uh, so I ran across,

[01:01:47] you know, uh, one of my buddies who's an ER doc and, uh, and we started talking about it. I was like, all right, you know, like, all right, that's where you want to go. I mean, I would go to like Wyoming too. Uh, you know, um, and so, but he, you know, he was kind of going for the gusto. Um, he wanted to, I don't know, I don't want to call him a trophy chaser or anything like that, but you know, but I

[01:02:14] think he was going for that kind of like, Hey, let's do this epic thing. Um, where I'm, there's so much in the States that I still haven't done because I'm, I'm relying on vacation time to, to go do these things, uh, rather than, you know, drive 20 minutes to my favorite place and go on a Saturday. Uh, so I'm definitely jealous of y'all, um, uh, and that, and your access to, uh, to whatever

[01:02:39] you want. Um, so, um, so I, I think it's almost irresponsible of me, uh, myself, uh, to, to at least fly abroad to, with the intent to go hiking. I did go to Italy with my wife last September and we did do a few days in the Dolomites and that, that was really cool. That was very, very cool. Uh, it was one hike, uh, Lake Sora piece. It was, um, it was, uh, uh, you know, moderate to hard hike. Um, but,

[01:03:08] but Europe does hiking right. So, so you hike, you know, these, you know, five, six miles up to this Alpine lake. It was so overcast, rainy, but the, the blue was just like the brightest, most beautiful blue I've ever seen. And then not 50 yards away from that Alpine lake is this big

[01:03:32] stone structure called a refugio where they serve hot food, beer, another alcohol, any drink you want. Um, and through hikers in Europe will go from refugio to refugio and sleep upstairs overnight and then, you know, go on their way the next day. And, um, I said, wow, you know, we are totally missing the point here in the States. Um, and these things were built back in the twenties and 1920s,

[01:03:59] you know, for those of you who are, uh, you know, recently born, um, but don't have a 19 in front of your year, uh, of birth, but, uh, but yeah. And, and so, uh, and these things are just going strong, uh, crazy views and just an amazing experience. Yeah. I've heard that from multiple people and in America, I feel like a lot of people take pride in like getting rugged and getting out there by themselves, but I'm not going to lie. That sounds very nice. Like being able to like take a little

[01:04:27] pit stop and just have a snack, you know, totally finish your supplies, maybe, you know, rest a little bit. Cause I, so in Colorado Springs, if you're ever out here hiking, uh, bar trail is one of the, uh, more famous hikes in the, in the area and in the state, uh, goes to the summit of hikes peak, um, on the way up though, about six miles in, uh, you have bar camp, which is a spot where you can, uh, you can stay in their cabin space or you can pitch a tent. Uh, they do spaghetti dinners at night

[01:04:55] and I think a pancake breakfast in the morning. So a lot of people will split that up over two days where they'll hike up to that, that camp, uh, that first night and then continue the other six miles to the summit and then do the full 12 miles down that second day. So that's maybe about the closest thing we have to that in Colorado. Yeah. When, when I was on this Canada trip recently, we, uh, you know, we had to do it, you know, stop by Lake Louise and like everybody else in Canada

[01:05:21] was at, at the bottom. Uh, but past that is the trail, uh, called plane of six glaciers. And, uh, so on the way up to the glaciers, there's a tea house and they serve all kinds of teas and, you know, they have food and, you know, like chili soups, uh, you know, like whatever bready kind of things. Um, so definitely, Hey, took a pit stop there. So that was sort of refugio like,

[01:05:47] um, and so, uh, that was, that was kind of nice. Yeah, for sure. Very cool. Um, well, yeah, I think, I mean, I think that's, that's the end of my question. So, um, is there anything else you want to say, uh, before we wrap this up? Oh, well, at, you know, I, I would love to ask you, um, you know, as a, as an experienced hiker, uh, you know, I would say very experienced hiker, did you learn anything from the book? Would you recommend this to

[01:06:15] other experienced hikers? Yes. Yeah. 100%. Um, so I thought, uh, I kind of mentioned it earlier a little bit, but, um, the crossing waterways section, I, I really learned a lot from that. I didn't know any of that. It's something that I've never really, uh, encountered much. So I just never really took the time to even look into a lot of that water safety stuff. And then also the land navigation section. Um, and just the way talking about like how you can use the stars and stuff to

[01:06:43] navigate. Uh, I think a lot of that has gotten missed, um, especially by people that have learned outdoor recreation later in their life. So, um, I'm, I'm pretty much like Colorado hiker exclusive, you know, um, pretty much all of my outdoor recreation experience comes from the last, uh, you know, 12, 12 years that I've been in Colorado. Um, when I was back in Indiana before that,

[01:07:07] uh, you know, we, we did maybe a walk on a trail occasionally, or we did maybe like a bike ride around the town, you know, or maybe like whatever little river path there was, but, uh, you know, not hard to even really count it as outdoor recreation in a sense. Um, so I think that people like me that have been introduced to outdoor recreation later in life, um, and just kind

[01:07:32] of learned on their own, they don't necessarily get all that land navigation, uh, teaching, you know, um, you know, like I wasn't in boy Scouts learning, learning what the stars were or anything like that. You know, it's, uh, pretty much just a lot of the transplants that move out to Colorado. Right. Uh, they see a picture of a pretty hike and they're like, Hey, I'm going to go try to do that hike. And you kind of learn like trial by fire in a sense where you make mistakes and you're like, okay, how can I not make that mistake again? Um, so yeah, definitely something

[01:08:02] like this. And especially for that last, that last skill and that chapter, um, I think that's something where, uh, I haven't read anything that's that in depth, um, before and yeah, really appreciated that. And then also, yeah, just along the way, like, uh, we cover a lot of safety, uh, in, in our content, in our written content, um, on out there, Colorado website, uh, but not nearly as in depth as a book like this. Right. So it's, um, you know, I can say, make sure you're

[01:08:31] putting salt in your water, but it's not pages and pages about like why you should do that, how you should do that, like what signs you should watch out for and stuff like that. So, um, yeah, I think anyone who's, uh, who's serious about, about hiking and, and especially people that have maybe been introduced to hiking later in life, uh, like myself, um, this book surviving the trail, hugely helpful. So, um, yeah, well, I appreciate that feedback. That'd be my, my feedback there.

[01:09:01] Um, yeah. Anything else you got? That's about it. All right. Well, um, yeah, everyone, everyone listening, that was a Dr. Rob Scanlon. Uh, he recently published a book called surviving the trail five essential skills to prepare every hiker for adventures, most common perils. Um, like I just said, I found it really helpful. Uh, you can find it on Amazon, correct? Or where, where should people go buy the book? Everywhere online. Uh, so Barnes and Noble books, a million

[01:09:29] Target, Walmart, even, um, so all, all the online retailers, it should be in every, uh, national park visitor center. Uh, and we've been trying to get that in there. Um, and, uh, I'm not sure how successful that went out being, but, uh, but that's, that's where it should be as well. Very cool. Um, and people can also find you on Instagram too, if you want to give your Instagram shout out, because I was, I was checking that out before the show too. And I think it's worth a shout out. It's a Dr underscore

[01:09:58] Rob Scanlon. Uh, one word. Yeah. And Scanlon spelled S C A N L O N. So, um, yeah, thank you so much for being on the show, Rob. Really appreciate it. I think people will find this talk fascinating and, uh, we will have to have you back on, uh, sometime soon. I would love that. And thank you so much for having me on. Thank you.