Stunning gorge of icy waterfalls; 2 controversial topics; More wolves in CO; Frigid temps; & More...

[00:00:00] Welcome to the OutThere Colorado Podcast. I'm Spencer McKee here with Seth Boster. Hello, hello, hello. And we've got some exciting outdoor recreation news from around Colorado for you once again. Yes. First thing to dive into though, how about that cold weather this last weekend? We are still thawing out, aren't we? Still thawing out. Two different days, Colorado was the coldest place in the lower 48. First, first- Wow, really? Yeah. I didn't even know that. On Sunday.

[00:00:29] And now it's Florida. Are you seeing the snow in Florida? Oh, man. Yeah. New Orleans. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty wild. People are skiing down Bourbon Street. Oh, and you know they have chaos if there's even like a warning of sleet. Oh, I know. Oh, yeah. I can't imagine what it's like down there with six inches of snow or whatever they're good. I've got my in-laws in Alabama. I know all too well about the South struggle with sudden snow. Yeah. That's not a good situation down there. But yeah, also not a good situation in Colorado.

[00:00:59] Colorado. It hit negative 34 degrees Fahrenheit in Crested Butte. And also, if you were listening last week, I was talking about how it was ice climbing out by Lake George. Or planning to ice climb out by Lake George. Also negative 34 degrees roughly there. So you did not go. So you did not go. I did not go. Thank goodness. They canceled the event. So I was not there. Yeah, negative 34 degrees. I mean, I think by the time I would have been there, it would have been a nice negative 27.

[00:01:29] There's a not so fine line. Yeah, that's a little bit too much for me. Especially when I'm just sitting there belaying, you know. But yeah, so I mean, very cold. That was the coldest in the lower 48 on Sunday. And then again, Tuesday morning, I think it was negative 40 in the Grand Lake area. Also the coldest in the lower 48.

[00:01:52] Wow. Ironically, on Sunday, too, I think the warmest place in the lower 48 was in Florida. 88 degrees. Wow. But yeah, cold weather. And then snow this weekend? Yeah, so some snow coming this weekend, apparently. Not a lot, you know, like 11. I think Jonathan Ingram with the Denver Gazette was saying 11 to 16 inches. National Weather Service hasn't released their official snow prediction yet.

[00:02:21] But yeah, probably something in the mountains there. Colorado as a whole right now. It's at like 90% statewide snowpack compared to the norm. And then you have places like southwest Colorado where I think it's like 70% or 71% of the typical snowpack.

[00:02:38] So pretty dry year. It's shaping up to be kind of a dry year in Colorado. Not as typical for the La Nina seasons where usually some parts of the state get some good snow. Copper Mountain, I think, is still the leader in terms of snow. Snowfall this year, 190 inches there. So yeah, pretty interesting stuff. Snow, snow, snow. Yeah, it's been cool. The last few nights, I haven't told you this story yet, Seth.

[00:03:08] Let's tell our producer, Tim, over here on the way to the studio. But I've been spending the last few nights of my life fighting raccoons on the roof of my house. It's one raccoon, I think. Yeah, the same raccoon. And I think he's just seeking, there's a little overhang there. And I think he's just seeking some relief from that cold weather. But every night around like 11, 30, 12 o'clock, I hear something. You hear some rustling on the roof? And then you hear some chewing.

[00:03:38] Oh my gosh. And it's been a little bit of damage. So last night, I think it was like a three-hour period where I was going outside every 15 minutes to shine a light on this raccoon. And throw pine cones at them, which were the most readily available weapon in my backyard, apparently. So yeah, it'll be interesting. I ordered some tree spikes on Amazon last night at about 3.30 a.m. when I finally hit my limit. And they're already at my front door.

[00:04:06] So thank you to Amazon's seven-hour delivery there. Good luck with that, man. Yeah, we'll see. If anyone listening has tips on preventing a raccoon from climbing up a tree and onto my roof, let us know. I bet that's got to be hard to sleep. Yeah, yeah. It's like I'm just laying in bed wondering what type of damage I'll wake up to, essentially. Or if this thing's going to get inside my attic or house or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, interesting situation. But I think everyone, including that raccoon, is trying to just survive the cold.

[00:04:35] You know, this is funny you mention this, because last night, my situation, my drama last night, I kept hearing our closet door kind of rustle a little bit. And I was like, it's probably a draft, right? Because it's the weird access into the attic, right? In the closet. And so I open up, and part of our hatch to the attic is just slightly open. Huh.

[00:05:05] And I'm like, I'm trying to think, did I bang that moving around stuff recently? Very creepy. Did for Spider-Man, right? My mind definitely went there. Lived up in the attic. But my mind also went to, man, I hope there's just some critter that nudged that or something somehow. Yeah. You go up there? Yeah. There was nothing. Nothing. But holy crap. Ooh. A ghost? Yeah. Hey, Denver Spider-Man. That was decades ago. I'll keep you posted, everybody. The murderous Denver Spider-Man. Look that up. Yeah, look that up.

[00:05:34] Different story for a different day. Oh, I definitely thought about it. We've talked about it before. I definitely thought we talked about it around Halloween. I was thinking about it. Punch-Lotinaries. You've got to be kidding me. Back in the day, this, what they describe them as gaunt and stringy looking or something like that. Spider-y. Spider-y. Murdered somebody and lived in their attic in Denver for like six months or something wild like that. So, yeah. Look that story up. But in other news, in other news not related to the Spider-Man and the static or the raccoon on my roof.

[00:06:04] Don't say that. Wolves. Reintroduced once again to Colorado. 15 Canadian wolves dropped off in Pitkin in their split between Pitkin and Eagle County. Also, five other wolves that were in captivity. The Copper Creek Pack. That was the pack where the father wolf died and was found with a gunshot wound, actually. So, they're looking into poaching situation there and trying to determine who shot that wolf.

[00:06:33] It got a leg injury that eventually led to its death. But either way, they scooped up the mother and four pups and held them in captivity during the stressful time of the season when all the prey animals are really strong, kind of at the end of summer into fall. And they have since released those wolves as well. But, yeah. The release, Eagle County, Pitkin County, kind of different compared to the last release, which was more like Grand County, which Grand County obviously home to outdoor recreation. You know, you got Grandby Ranch there. You got Winter Park there.

[00:07:03] And then, obviously, those wolves kind of traveled toward that Steamboat Springs area. But I think, you know, I mean, picking an Eagle County or two of the biggest counties in the state when it comes to outdoor recreation, year-round outdoor recreation, I think a big part of why those counties were picked were really because they were, you know, there's not as much livestock production there.

[00:07:26] Colorado Parks and Wildlife also made it a point to say that the wolves that they did bring in from Canada were from an area where no livestock production was taking place. So the wolves don't necessarily, you know, they haven't learned to hunt livestock. So it seems like they're trying to kind of address some of those concerns from some of those livestock producers in northern Colorado and northwest Colorado. Big concerns, yeah.

[00:07:48] Yeah, also the more interesting thing that I thought in terms of this round of reintroduction, which it completes this round of reintroduction for the 2024, 2025 season. But the more interesting thing that I thought, or at least that I took away from this, was that it was south of I-70. Right.

[00:08:10] So if you look at all the mapping from the wolves that have been in Colorado thus far since December 2023, there hasn't really, it took them months to even cross I-70. And eventually I think it was, I want to say the end of October, Colorado Parks and Wildlife said a wolf finally made that cross down into the Leadville area.

[00:08:32] And then I think recently a wolf was spotted out in Guffey, which is kind of, you know, west of Colorado Springs and that Pikes Peak region area. But either way, I mean, now that they're actually being introduced across that kind of barrier, you know, that might open the door for a lot of spread into the rest of the state. You know, Picking County is entirely south of I-70. Eagle County is split by it.

[00:08:58] So, and they didn't say specifically where those wolves were released in Eagle County. But yeah, it could be interesting. How many wolves now do they have on the books? So there's the 15, I think a few wolves have died. Right. I've kind of lost track of just where the. Yeah, I think it's like 11, I want to say, of the original wolves that were introduced are still alive. And then there's also four pups, something in that range.

[00:09:26] So we probably have, you know, 25 to 35 wolves in Colorado, I would guess. Okay. Yeah, everyone, you know, that big question, will they, you know, out, they're out in the mountains and will we get to hear that wolf howl? Yeah. We're kind of getting closer maybe to that potential experience. Well, and also, I mean, if you're talking, you know, traveling south of I-70, there's so much vast wilderness there. Right.

[00:09:52] Like that's something like a lot of people, unless you were like looking at a map and looking at the main roads that go through that area and where the towns are at. Yeah. It's hard to really just like comprehend how much just. That terrain, yeah. Remote area there is there. We're talking Maroon Bell Snowmass? So, yeah. So that's like Picken County, home to Aspen, right? So they weren't specific on where. Right. Exactly.

[00:10:15] But, yeah, Picken County, home to that Maroon Bells wilderness, which while it gets a lot of media attention, especially that four-pass loop, you know, there's not a lot out there. Like it's pretty low traffic. Conundrum Hot Springs. Yeah, Conundrum Hot Springs. But, yeah. Yeah, there's trails here and there. But, yeah, it's pretty rugged, pretty remote. Low population in that county for sure, too.

[00:10:42] So, yeah, it'll be interesting to just see how that wolf movement continues to progress. Do they have? Have they stated when the next release might be? Or what's the plan calls for? Sounds like next year. Next year, no. They said they wrapped up the 2024-2025 season. So probably next year, it seems like most of these releases take place kind of in winter. That first one was late December, right? Yeah.

[00:11:09] Which I think it's kind of almost counterintuitive here, but we got to remember wolves are, you know, made to survive cold weather or built to survive cold weather. So it's one of those things where I think it's easier for them in the winter to hunt prey, essentially, because prey is kind of bogged down. And numbers matter there, too.

[00:11:34] I mean, I've heard that stated that, you know, with concerns from ranchers and livestock, you know, as there's more wolves, the more they have a chance at hunting in packs. And getting prey that they are used to getting together, you know, rather than livestock.

[00:11:54] Well, and I mean, this is purely speculative, too, but it could even be the reason they're released south of I-70 is so the I-70 services are barriers so they can't go north, you know, maybe. I don't know. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see. And Colorado Parks and Wildlife publishes a map. I think it's every, the fourth Wednesday of every month. The fourth Thursday. Yeah. So, yeah, we'll see exactly how those wolves have moved. They're all being tracked. They're all collared, I believe. A big story that will just keep going. That's for sure.

[00:12:24] One of those things where it's like, I think people are losing interest in it. I think so, yeah. A little bit. You know, it's like the wolves are here. Getting used to it. That's kind of the big news. But I do think that I-70 shift kind of, you know, that's notable just because you're looking at now. It's like the Buena Vista not too far from there and a lot of vastness there. More of these more commonly front range people tracked. Yeah, exactly. And, I mean, Eagle. Eagle, right? Like Vail.

[00:12:55] Like that's a high traffic county. Like there's trails all over Eagle County, especially compared to Pitkin County. Eagle County way more. Talking ski country. Accessible, yeah. Yeah, hardest ski country. But, yeah, talking about some vast wilderness changes, Seth, you wrote something recently on Pikes Peak National Forest and recreational shooting. Yes. Thought that topic was pretty interesting. Yeah. What do you got on that? I've kind of been following this over the years. It's been many years in the making.

[00:13:26] Going back, you know, there was a partnership of multiple governments and utility agencies that kind of traced their collaboration on this back eight years ago. So, yeah. Lots of meetings. Lots of big, lengthy environmental review that the Forest Service put out initially in the fall.

[00:13:49] All leading to the final decision here, as the agency refers to it, their decision-making process. And that is a big change in recreational shooting across Pike National Forest. So, this being, you know, for us front-range populations, the national forests we're probably most familiar with. I mean, of course, yeah, more north. You got into Boulder there, or around Boulder there, Roosevelt and Arapaho.

[00:14:18] But Pike National Forest kind of sprawling between El Paso and Douglas counties and Teller, getting into Park County, you know, there further west. Well, and to put that in perspective, too, the size of Pike National Forest, it's over a million acres. Yeah, 1.1 million acres. Yeah, which is 1,700 square miles. Yeah. So, huge. That definitely puts it in perspective. That's a big national forest. Right.

[00:14:43] So, yeah, and now, and maybe, you know, I think maybe some people aren't aware of this. Like, you know, target shooting, recreational shooting, however you want to call it. I mean, that is a historic legal activity on Forest Service land. I mean, everywhere. You know, that has historically been a permissible use, shall we say. But land managers here more locally for years have noticed issues, have been reporting issues with wildfire sparks,

[00:15:12] resource damage, right, like shot up trees, trash, definitely concern about waterway contamination, right? Shooting across trails. Shooting, and that's the, that's where we're, you know, getting into public safety. You know, they've, what I think in their initial, the way they put it in their initial announcement, shooting-related wildfires, injuries, and at least one verified fatality. Oh, wow. Rising numbers of user conflicts and growing levels of resource damage.

[00:15:42] That's how they've described kind of the need to embark into this, what do we do about recreational shooting? So, here we are on the final decision, and that is to close a vast swath of those 1.1 million acres. 73%, essentially, of the entire national forest. And they've kind of identified areas, here again, how do they describe it? Highly used recreation areas, where they're banning it, right, roughly in these areas.

[00:16:09] Areas that are too close to highly used recreation areas, private properties, roads, waterways, historic and cultural sites, and utility infrastructure. So, that's kind of how they landed on this. And notably, that includes the entirety of the Pikes Peak Ranger District, which is 230,000 plus acres that people in Colorado Springs,

[00:16:34] Monument, Woodland Park, that Ranger District is entirely closed to shooting. Wow. Is that, so, does Old Stage Road go up there? Yes, Old Stage. And there has been a popular spot for shooting. And it is a little bit sketchy. Yep, for sure. I was up there one time, it's very sketchy. And you hear, you can hear it. Yeah. And that's one area, one example, including Rampart Range Road, where years ago, they put emergency closure orders for shooting.

[00:17:02] Now, that's getting into the question of, we still, you still hear the shooting, right? That gets into this big question about enforcement. Is this even able to be enforced, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, with Rampart Range Road, too, so is Mount Hermon in this area? Yep. Because that cyclist, Tim Watkins, was found with a gunshot wound in a shallow grave several years ago. Still a cold case, right? Yeah, still a cold case.

[00:17:29] And there were some, I mean, they don't know what happened, but there were some suspicions that it could have been, like, accidental shooting. A lot of minds have gone to that with this project. They've called it the Integrated Management of Target Shooting Project, by the way, if you want to look up all these documents. Yeah, and if you want more on the Tim Watkins case, too, there's a Colorado Springs Gazette has a great podcast on it, Colorado Cold Case. I think it's the second season or third season of that show, but they do a deep dive. Yeah. Fascinating case, tragic situation. Definitely. Yeah.

[00:17:59] So, along with the closures, they've called it, it's going to be in phases, nothing immediate, right? It's going to be in phases based on when they build out these ranges, right? Which they very much have described as, like, they want to see professional developed ranges with lanes and noise abatement features and targets, everything you kind of expect at a professional, maybe privately owned range. They want to put those six of them across the forest.

[00:18:30] That seems responsible. Sure. Obviously, I'm sure a lot of people are mad about the rights of being able to, or the historic rights of being able to shoot on. Yep. You already have attorneys writing letters, you know, saying this is a Second Amendment infringement. Yeah, that makes sense. There's also equal concern about, you know, if you tell people they can't shoot in the forest, but they can shoot on these ranges, is there going to be a funnel effect? Is there, you know, is that going to be something sustainable?

[00:18:57] There's no right away, they've described this as like an adaptive management strategy, which includes the possibility of supervision down the line. How is that funded? What does that look like? There's still a lot of questions about this, but yeah, kind of an interesting conversation about the way we use our forests and the way we should use our forests and shouldn't use our forests. You know, there's a lot of, there's been a lot of debate about this over the years.

[00:19:27] Do you know if that historic, right, to use the forest as a, as for recreational shooting, do you know if that's like solidified in legislation anywhere? Or is that just kind of the policy of the forest service? So the way, the way the land managers have described what they're doing here, they've tried to be very specific in, you know, just like we have certain areas where people are allowed to travel off-road.

[00:19:55] And where other areas where they're not allowed to do that. Just as we have certain areas where people can bike and not bike. Fish and not fish. Fish and not fish. They are very much trying to describe this as, this is another one of those uses that, yes, we feel like needs limitations just like some of those other uses. Right. Right. So in response to the Second Amendment outcry, you know, they very much, you know, what's the statement?

[00:20:25] This proposed action does not infringe on an individual's right to keep and bear arms. Rather, it delineates how target shooting will be managed on the Pike National Forest. Hmm. So. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's Second Amendment. Read that how you want. Yeah. But they're pretty much saying, you know, you have a right to keep and bear arms. We have a right to tell you where you can shoot or not shoot. That's one way of maybe reading it. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense.

[00:20:53] I mean, the Second Amendment, I don't think it does anything about being able to shoot the guns you have, you know, right? We're getting into the Middle East territory. I'm not an expert on this topic. And I'm sure that even me just mentioned that just made people mad. But probably we're not at the end of this. You know, while this decision got signed and the Forest Service has put the final stamp of approval on it, you know, there's still I think you're still going to hear a lot of discussion about this.

[00:21:19] I think a lawsuit is definitely, you know, something that could be that we could hear about. And then, yeah, I mean, just what the ranges could look like. Yeah. You know, and what, you know, is there kind of like a spirit of volunteerism that grows around these places? Do we see, you know, Forest Service has campgrounds and other day use areas that have agreements with commercial operators, right?

[00:21:45] Where Forest Service makes agreements with private companies to essentially manage these with some fee basis. That's interesting. A lot of people's minds have gone to that. Yeah. There are also plenty of ranges that are totally unregulated. It's just like here's a place that's been designed where it's a responsible spot to shoot. Yeah. There's no one there watching. It's just. Yep. Yeah. So. So. Could be like that, too. Yeah. Could be interesting. Very interesting stuff.

[00:22:15] Also in Colorado Springs. Another story you've been working on. Yeah. Which is. D-bikes. Kind of stems from the debate of. Is a motor. Does a motor make a vehicle motorized? Which sounds ridiculous when you say it like that. But I mean, it's a pretty, pretty intense debate going on. Yeah. I got. Yeah. And I mean, gosh, this isn't the first time we've talked about e-bikes. Yeah. We've chatted about it, too. Colorado Springs parks and open spaces. I mean, this has been a debate. Talk about. Yeah.

[00:22:45] Talk about another debate. That's been. Or issue that's been percolating for years. Like, you know, I mean, what? There was a pilot program they saw. And to be clear, I mean, we see e-bikes all around the front range. There's Jefferson County open space. Douglas County open space. Some extent, Boulder County open space. I mean, land managers, front range land managers that made decisions on e-bikes years ago. Yeah. But here in Colorado Springs, it's been a very difficult conversation. And at the crux of that is this voter approved ordinance.

[00:23:15] Trails open space and parks ordinance. Shortened for tops. That was approved by voters in 1997. That acquired and money that acquired and has maintained much of these premier outdoor destinations as we know them now. Around town. Red Rocks. Stratton. Blodgett. U Valley Park. Some of the most popular places in Colorado Springs. And huge parks that we're talking about. Like, you know. And dozens and dozens of miles of trails. Very popular.

[00:23:44] Very popular for bikes, for hikers, running, what have you. Yeah. And there are just, there's a pretty large group of people saying, you know, there can't be a policy saying e-bikes are allowed where other bikes are allowed, as it has been presented. Because this top or tops ordinance, which states, these are trails for non-motorized vehicles. Right?

[00:24:12] That's what critics have pointed to in that 1997 ordinance. They say that very clearly bans e-bikes on these without another vote of the people to amend that ordinance. Right? Yeah. So that's really, we're getting into kind of a nitty-gritty.

[00:24:28] But yes, to your point, I mean, that's where kind of the conversation has gone, is the policy, the administrative policy proposed wants to classify class one and two e-bikes as non-motorized use. And there are people who say, how can we call these things non-motorized use? Yeah. I mean, I've said it before. I'm a big fan of e-bikes.

[00:24:57] I think, for one, it seems like the cycling industry is just moving that way on a big scale in general. Yeah, big time. Just, I mean, it lets you go further. It lets you go faster. It lets you just experience more in the saddle. Yeah. I mean, there are people who have aged out of traditional. Yeah, also the accessibility, too. That's a big thing for me. It's like. There are people who have injuries, with disabilities.

[00:25:20] You know, e-bikes have gotten them back on trails with friends, with family, getting them exercise and fresh air that a lot of people, you know, say they wouldn't have otherwise. Yeah. Thanks to e-bikes. Well, and that's in terms of the accessibility aspect, too. I mean, are motorized wheelchairs allowed in these parks? We've seen that. Yeah. So that's, I mean, maybe there's, it seems like there might be some sort of a precedent in terms of the accessibility aspect.

[00:25:49] I mean, that's motor. Yeah. I mean, you can tell, you know, I've had to try to maintain some objectivity as this conversation has played out around town. But there's a lot of, you know, yeah, for a lot of the pros of this, the mayor has gone on the record saying this is about inclusion. This is about providing opportunities to the great outdoors.

[00:26:11] And there are just as many people saying we have a very clear ordinance that is meant to protect these parks and open spaces. And this is an ordinance representing a trust with voters. And can we really say these are, quote unquote, non-motorized use? And therefore, we don't have to ask you voters about, you know, that's it. So this seems like something, if it goes to vote, I feel like e-bikes are pretty popular among the general population.

[00:26:41] Or at least they might just be like, oh yeah, I've seen those and they look the same. They're out there now. They're out there now. I would imagine if you pulled the people at Colorado Springs and were like, should we allow e-bikes on these trails? It would be interesting. I would guess they would say. There was a survey. Yes. I would, that would be my guess. But what's the survey? There was a survey over the summer. What did they say? Maybe 3,000 responses. And it was, it was like about, they reported about 60% yes to the proposed policy. Yeah.

[00:27:09] I mean, I think people were kind of scared about e-bikes at first in a way, like in all the mountain biking groups that I'm, you know, on Facebook and stuff. You'd see, you'd see people just like immediately just, you know, talking smack about e-bikers and just how bad they are. Like three, four years ago. How dare they pass me uphill. Yeah. You don't see that anymore. Right. Like it's, it's very, very rare if ever that you see in just those general mountain biking groups that you see people really hating on e-bikes. So, yeah. Yeah. It's a. Yeah.

[00:27:39] Like I said, I mean, there's, there's been decisions on these elsewhere and, but there is just this, this, this cherished ordinance to be fair that, that people very much feel like needs to be protected. And, and now, I mean, you know, literally the latest update I filed today is on, you know, there, there's now the lawsuit potential coming from this. So does it get voted on? Does it have to go administratively or does it go to voters? That's where, that's kind of where things are at now.

[00:28:09] Yeah. Yeah. Take it to vote. Let's see what the. See if the survey was good. See if the survey is accurate. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I mean, what are the main concerns with e-bikes? We've kind of talked about it before, but what is it like trail damage and erosion because they weigh more and they go faster and then also safety. Points on that. Yeah. Yeah. And does it, you know, I mean, I don't, I'm really curious about, you know, I've talked to like people in Jefferson County and Douglas County and Boulder County.

[00:28:36] Like, do you see more bikes out there? And the answer is like, well, yes, but is that because of e-bikes or is that just because people are getting into bikes more? Because yes, the critics say, is this opening up increased use that is unsustainable potentially? Is this opening up more traffic where we have limited resources to care for trails and expand our park system the way it is?

[00:29:05] Does this open up a problematic can of worms, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. You have a trail design for 50 normal non-metorized bikes a day. And then all of a sudden you have more traffic and the bikes are heavier, going faster. I could see where they'd be. And I'm just, yeah. And again, there's, there's, there's that fear of like, you know, there are people who say, I've been hit by a bike and am I going to get hit by a bike again because of more e-bikes out there?

[00:29:31] And we get into the conversation of, well, it's about the driver, not the car, right? Is it, it's about responsible use, right? And there's a fine line in that conversation that potentially demonizes e-bike riders that I think people need to be careful about, you know? Hey, it'll probably hurt a lot more getting hit by a 40 pound bike going 25 miles per hour compared to a 25 pound bike going 15, you know? Yeah.

[00:29:57] But my point is like, I just don't think there's, I, I'm just not aware of clear data that suggests there will be more bikes or there will be more issues slash injuries. Maybe, you know, in all, cause all this data is very imperfect. I mean, you have to report it, right? Like, does it get reported out there in Jefferson County and whatnot? That's true. It's pretty, you know, I mean. Pretty niche. Niche? Yeah. Niche. Niche. Well, and you can't really, you know, see a bike or is that an e-bike?

[00:30:27] I mean, these things have blended so well. Yeah. I would imagine it's like how, it's, it's probably hard enough for them to get injuries or data related to just general, you know, your average injury on a mountain bike, let alone e-bike stuff without major spending. It'll be interesting because, I mean, Colorado, Colorado Springs area is, you know, a major outdoor recreation hub in the United States. With a lot of people. Yeah, with a lot of people. You're a major city. Yeah. With major terrain all around.

[00:30:56] It'll be, it'll be curious to see, or I'll be curious to see if this sets any sort of precedent or leads to a framework for other, other cities to, to follow suit. So, yeah. Yeah. Interesting stuff. I mean, the debate continues. Yeah. So. Here's a, here's a glimpse into my, my world. You know, those are issues that I've been trying to wrap my head around. Whoa. For a while. So another one you've been wrapping your head around for a while is, uh, you're a ice park. Oh yeah.

[00:31:26] More fun. That's more fun. Yeah. More fun. Less, less anger, uh, involved with the ice park compared to the rec shooting and the, uh, the e-bikes. So tell us about that beautiful destination. Yeah. You're a Colorado. You've been there. I take it. Yeah. I've been there. I met Conrad anchor there. Uh, legendary mountaineer. Good for you. Also Don glance. Uh, sure. We were down there back in, oh gosh, it would have been 2018. I think 2017, 2018 for out there, Colorado shoot.

[00:31:56] And, uh, it's grown since then. It's cool. I met, I met Conrad anchor down in the bottom of the Canyon with the ice climbing. Was he just there? Yeah. He was just chilling. No way. He was hosting. It was during the week of the festival and he was hosting the festival. Okay. Okay. But we like, we're down in this Canyon and just kind of getting some shots. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, we like look over and someone on the team was like, that's Conrad anchor. And I mean, he's all bundled up. Like it's frigid down in this little slot Canyon filled with icy waterfalls.

[00:32:24] And those waterfalls are like a hundred feet or plus, you know, big waterfalls that are frozen, uh, man-made waterfalls that are frozen, but we'll talk about that here in a second. But, um, yeah, it, uh, it was wild. He was super nice. He took a photo with us. Um, yeah, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was like, Oh, Hey, how's it going? He was just belaying someone. Like, I'm like, how old is he now? Um, you know what? I don't know. Neither here nor there, but that out. Yeah.

[00:32:52] Conrad anchor for you, for y'all that, uh, aren't familiar with the name. Oh, he's a 62 years old. Yeah. Um, but he, uh, was the team leader of the North face climbing team for 26 years. Um, found, uh, George Mallory's body on Everest. Uh, he's a famous mountaineer. Um, has, has accomplished many ascents and, and first ascents even. And, uh, yeah, one of the probably, I mean, to be honest, one of the probably biggest name

[00:33:21] and mountaineer here. Yeah. In the last, you know, last few decades, at least. Yeah. Um, works a lot with Jimmy Chan, Alex Honnold. Um, but yeah, cool, cool dude. But anyway, yeah, that's, that's the level of the Ure Ice Festival, which we're about to chat about a little bit. Yeah. World's best climbers are there. Ice climbers are there. Um, and who would have guessed over 30 years ago? Not the people behind it. Right. Yeah. So the festival, the festival is celebrating 30 years this year and the festival really

[00:33:50] very much came in like what a year or two after the park was kind of just getting established. And I've been talking to people about that history, just kind of funny stories about how all this came to be, you know, like you put it like this international destination, but had such a, such a, uh, gritty beginning. So it kind of, the story is, uh, to the, these two partners who own the hotel nearby Victorian

[00:34:16] Inn, um, you know, people had been noticing leaks or were they leaks in the pipe, right? Forming these, these big waterfalls. Climbers had been going in there and this was private property of the hydro plant owner, Eric Jacobson, who's still around, still owns it with now the management and agreements that are all in place. Yeah. And to set the scene, it's basically like this slot Canyon. The Uncompahgre Gorge. Yeah. Uncompahgre Gorge. Yeah. Um, just like a deep narrow Canyon. At the end of town, pretty much.

[00:34:44] Just off the sides of that, there's these icy formations that pop up. And there's that penstock, penstock that fans through it where water has come out and, you know, people, climbers were seeing that for years before this, but finally, you know, these two hotel partners got to thinking, man, what an attraction that could be. And people talk about, you know, in the eighties and nineties, URA was like a ghost town. You know, locals will tell you that, you know, kids could sled on main street because there was no cars.

[00:35:13] Like, you know, storefronts were dark. Maybe a restaurant had to, had to be the one to open that night, you know, had to be the one to suffer that night, you know, but yeah, just nothing. And so, um, Eric Jacobson, the hydro plant owner, um, had known about climbers going in there and he had also known about these quote unquote leaks. But as he told me, like they had very striking resemblance to holes, uh, shot by a 45 caliber.

[00:35:44] So the hotel owner, Gary Wilde was his name. Eric tells the story of Gary, uh, walking over to Eric's place with a six pack of beer. Right. This was the, this was the kumbaya moment. Can we be friends and can we figure out, you know, some kind of management to this thing? Luckily, Gary was a former attorney who knew how to work through all the city and county and state and legal worlds to try to make this legit.

[00:36:12] And to Eric's credit, I mean, Eric has to be every year the festival goes on. People have to give some credit to Eric because a private landowner allowing a pretty dangerous activity, you know, he kind of, he kind of stepped out there. I don't know. Maybe the six pack of beer was that good, you know, but he was saying, he was like, he's like, I really, you know, he's like, Gary was an ass man. He's like, but I really came to like it.

[00:36:41] So, yeah, I mean, flash forward. I mean, this thing is, you know what? There was an economic study of 18 million to the town, direct and indirect contributions. It's only open like three months of the year. Yeah. Three months. Thousands of people. Dang. That's, I mean, 18 million has got to make a big impact too for a town of like 900 people. Yeah. They get outnumbered by the ice climbers for sure. There was, there was a lot of, you know, a lot of locals then too.

[00:37:07] Like we talk about like they, um, the city and a lot of locals were not sold on this place initially. You know, they would see, they would see as, as they would call it dirt bags sleeping in their VWs, sleeping around town on the sidewalks and sleeping bags, you know, like That's funny. I, ice climbing gear is pretty expensive too. Like my, my tools were 250 bucks a piece or something. Yeah. And that's like it, hearing all those stories made me think like, wow.

[00:37:34] I mean, I just, I, yeah, I frankly, I associate ice climbing with a little bit of money nowadays. You know what I mean? Maybe one of the most expensive outdoor recreation activities. But back then, I mean, these guys were very much like they're dirt bags. They're not contributing to our economy. They're just, they're just, you know, bums on the street, you know, but obviously that kind of perception, that popular perception has changed for sure. You know? Yeah.

[00:37:59] And I'm looking at some of the stats here too, on the, uh, the URI ice park, uh, website. So it costs 20, 20 bucks a day for a climber. If you just go there during this three month period outside the festival is what it does on the website. It's free. Is it free? It says it's free. Oh, is that the festival? It costs $20 per day. So I read that wrong cost. So it costs them $20 per day for a climber to operate. So I hadn't even seen that. So yeah. So nevermind. It is free. Donate. It appears to be free. Yeah.

[00:38:28] Free in public park. So apologies there, but either way, looking at the stats here, uh, highest route, 150 feet, uh, there are over, uh, it says 200 routes or 150 man-made ice and mixed routes in 11 distinct areas, uh, with over three miles of vertical terrain. And it stretches like two miles down that gorge. So huge, huge area. Yeah. Um, well, uh, 250 shower heads now.

[00:38:56] So no longer a gunshot hole or apparent gunshot holes, uh, 250 shower heads spraying two gallons per minute. These farmers who go around turning those on. I mean, can you imagine in the middle of the night when it's cold? Yeah. They're the unsung heroes for sure. So it's 150,000 to 200,000 gallons of water per night. Wow. Yeah. And that gets into, I mean, two points there, bud. Like you mentioned the free aspect of it.

[00:39:22] I kind of had some interesting conversations with, with folks about, you know, I don't know if people, it's very much like membership driven, local and, um, company sponsors are a big part of this festival is a big part of the revenue, obviously. Um, but you mentioned that water is expensive. These four, um, farmers on staff or rangers on staff, the nonprofit has, um, paid, uh, staff as well. A few members.

[00:39:50] This all gets to that question of like, I mean, it is a pricey endeavor, especially as they're talking about trying to secure their own water source, which they deem as very essential to this thing lasting for another 30 years. A lot of money. And I had a guy tell me, you know, guy who was there at the start of things, first vice president of the nonprofit who's very much stayed involved kind of on the outskirts and very much loves this park.

[00:40:16] You know, he, he was like, I hate to say it, but I really wonder if this remains free forever because of the demands for wages or water, you know, it, it'll be interesting. It feels like if you're going all the way out to your rate of ice climb, 20 bucks a day is totally reasonable for like what's probably, I mean, clearly one of the best ice climbing destinations in the world. Yeah. Um, you know, at least like one that's maintained and everything. Yeah. It seems like 20 bucks a day.

[00:40:44] Like I would be happy to, happy to shell out that money. Careful, man. Not everyone's going to blame you. I know. Right. But I think, I think the ice climbing community would agree with me, you know, it's like, yeah, it's like there, there are free. I think they've got like close to a thousand members who, who help with the, with those costs. And again, a lot of, a lot of sponsorships that, that cover a lot of it and, and the festival for sure is a big shot in the arm, but yeah. And the water picture is interesting too. Yeah.

[00:41:11] So their website and, and I hope maybe you can verify this too. The website right now, it says they utilize overflow water from the city. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which has, which, you know, a lot of people have, have said is less and less as there's more demands for that water and less of it and years of drought. Yeah. So, but yeah, they're trying to secure their own water. They have, they have, um, they have a situation lined up that's been in the works for years. You can read all about that.

[00:41:39] Our water, our future, that campaign. Hmm. So that could be in the next year or two. Hopefully they get that, they get that secured, which would go a long way to, you know, they get here, they, they hear from the city, got to turn off the water. Yeah. You know, and that impacts the, the product. Yeah. Dang. Well, yeah. And I mean, uh, the ice climbing festivals this weekend, right? That's right. Yeah. So this weekend, um, you got nothing to do. It's definitely cool. Worth the drive out. Yeah. Anyway, it stays open through February. Yeah. Typically.

[00:42:09] I think almost always. Not the festival to park itself. The park itself. Right. Um, yeah. Like whenever I was at the ice festival, they did have like a little wall where they were showing people kind of like an inch. Yeah. Like an inch to ice climbing. So, um, that was kind of cool. Got the chance. That was the first time I ever did some ice climbing. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, pretty, uh, big, beautiful, beautiful spot. It's a gem of Colorado for sure. Yeah. I mean, it attracts the best around for good reason. Yeah. So yeah. You got nothing to do this weekend?

[00:42:39] Uh, head there and check that out. Uh, or if you're in the mood to go to Breckenridge, look at that segue right here. Oh yeah. Uh, the snow sculptures. Check out the snow sculptures. I forgot about that. Breckenridge snow sculpture competition. Um, or international snow sculpture competitions. Uh, sorry. Uh, international snow sculpture championships. Yes. There you go. The ISSC is in Breckenridge, uh, from January 20th to January 29th.

[00:43:08] And the viewing portion, uh, for public viewing starts on January 24th. Okay. Which is after the awards are handed out. So they don't have to worry about the sculptures melting or someone messing around. I've been wanting to go to this. I'm looking at it up now. Oh, dude. It's so cool. So the website, we encourage spectators to view Sunday, January 26th through 29 when reservations are not required. Yeah. Yeah. Those first few days are reservations. Okay. Yeah.

[00:43:35] And I mean, these are, it's so essentially what happens is snow sculpting teams from around the world, uh, travel to Breckenridge to carve up 25 ton blocks of snow by hand. They're not allowed to use, uh, power tools and such. Um, and they create these, you know, very fleeting works of art. They're beautiful. 12, 12 feet tall. And then they get lit up at night with some neon lights. And I mean, it's, it's definitely worth checking out, um, and maybe a little bit closer than

[00:44:04] the URI ice festival for most of our, most of our listeners, but, uh, yeah. The teams this year, um, this is a Piper Russell, uh, without their Colorado reporting, uh, that the teams this year are from Argentina, Canada, Finland, Germany, India, South Korea, Mexico, Mongolia, Turkey. And then there are two U S teams, one of which is from Wisconsin and another one from Breckenridge. So of course, Wisconsin, I think they always have the hometown team in there too, if I remember correctly, you know?

[00:44:32] Um, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's, uh, definitely worth checking out. These sculptures are incredible. Like some of them, a lot of times some of the most impressive sculptures, there are some that are like super highly detailed for, for starters, but some of those most impressive sculptures are just the ones that seem to defy gravity. I mean, you're dealing with so much snow, no power tools, and then you get like massive blocks of snow that are just kind of suspended in air by not much snow below.

[00:44:59] And, you know, it's like, what's how's this all staying together? I'm looking so pretty. Um, so yeah, very cool event. Uh, one of those things where, you know, if you're, if you're up in Breck this weekend, make a reservation on, on Friday, Saturday, and, uh, just kind of check it out. The teams have 94 hours. I love that. I might do this. I might go, man. Oh, it's cool. I mean, it's one of those things, you know, you probably spend 30, 45 minutes walking around the area. Yeah. Get your fill.

[00:45:29] Um, you can also, I think cast a vote for like public favorites awards and stuff like that. People's choice awards. Um, but yeah, very, uh, very cool, uh, thing to do this weekend. Cool. We gave you some options there. Yeah. Gave you some options. You never know what people might be able to take away from our silly little podcast. Our silly little podcast. Uh, but yeah, speaking of the silly little podcast, that's about all we got today. I think. Um, yeah. So thanks for, thanks for tuning in and listening. Um, do you get the sign off this time?

[00:45:59] You know what? We should just try to coordinate it together on the fly. One, two, three. Wait, see you. Just like pineapple express. One, two, three, go. Or remember that? Yeah. Just go. Just go. Uh, oh, I had a movie recommendation too. Okay. We'll save it for next time. One, two, three. One, two, three. See you. See you out there. We'll get better. We'll get better. We'll get better. Have a good day, guys.