SPECIAL: An Interview with Gandhi

[00:00:03] Podcast, I'm your host, Spencer McKee. We've got a special episode in store for you today,

[00:00:15] where I sit down with Gopal Krishna Gandhi and we chat about how his grandfather Mahatma

[00:00:19] Gandhi might view some of the issues going on in the world today. Then I ask Gopal Krishna

[00:00:23] about his own thoughts on conservation and how we can ensure that the world tomorrow is as

[00:00:28] beautiful as the world today. Enjoy!

[00:00:42] So you're coming to Colorado to talk about your book that you're publishing, Scorching Love. What does

[00:00:48] that mean to you? And why are you publishing that book? Spencer, I inherited a good

[00:01:01] body of letters written by my grandfather Mohandas Gandhi to my father, Devadas Gandhi. And my father

[00:01:12] intended to have them translated from the Gurujrati original into English in the form of a book. But he

[00:01:23] died very suddenly and couldn't complete the project. So these unpublished letters, mostly

[00:01:28] unpublished letters from Gandhi to his son, had remained in one box, what we call a trunk for many,

[00:01:38] many years until recently when we decided that it was time to translate them and publish them.

[00:01:47] Before, another owner of those letters, namely myself, passes before that happens. So we should do

[00:01:58] this in good time. And that's how these letters have been published. I found them very

[00:02:06] worse publishing because they were about family concerns, family issues. But also in the context

[00:02:16] of the great freedom movement in India, the movement for justice and reform in India. So it is

[00:02:23] both personal and public, intimate and also general and social. Yeah, definitely. How do you

[00:02:32] think that those are relevant today then, just in the context of the freedom movement and their

[00:02:38] significance today? Gandhi was a very restless person. His sister who was older than him, he had

[00:02:47] only one sister called him restless as mercury. And that is true. He was he has gone, stay still.

[00:02:56] And when he was deeply engrossed in the freedom struggle, and also in reading India of many social

[00:03:06] and cultural evils, which he saw as evil and plunged into removing those evils, he still managed

[00:03:16] to find time to be a good father, a good husband, sometimes not a very successful father or a

[00:03:25] successful husband, and very often not a very popular father, but he managed to be very

[00:03:32] intimately connected with family. And all that comes through in this letter, he comes through as a man

[00:03:39] who was not only restless, but also keen to do right by his family and by his society.

[00:03:50] What do you think that balance between that restlessness and that loyalty to your family

[00:03:59] is something that is kind of a takeaway from reading these letters and something that people

[00:04:04] can kind of learn from that? I believe so. I also think that reading these letters is fun in its

[00:04:15] own way and for its own sake, because he has a lot of humor. Many of the jokes are sort of

[00:04:22] in-house family jokes, but very accessible to anyone who bothers to read them. And many of them

[00:04:31] Spencer were written by him when he was in prison. And when he was a prisoner of the

[00:04:38] British government, they allowed him to receive letters and to write letters. And this is something

[00:04:45] which is significant. Why did the jail authorities allow Gandhi to receive not a few, but hundreds

[00:04:55] of letters? Because the whole country wanted to write to him and those letters were given to him

[00:05:00] and he was allowed to reply to them if he wanted to. One reason may be that by allowing this

[00:05:08] political prisoner to write letters, the jail authorities also had a way of knowing what was

[00:05:15] going on in his mind because they censored all the letters and they knew exactly what he was

[00:05:20] thinking and what he was writing. But the letters from the jail are fascinating because

[00:05:27] they describe jail conditions. Very honestly, he does not say that he was tortured because he

[00:05:36] was not. He does not say that he was mistreated because he was not. But he does say that he was

[00:05:44] isolated, that he was not given the intellectual nourishment that he would have liked and of

[00:05:53] course he was not given the chance to receive visits from family and friends as he liked.

[00:06:00] So it's a very honest description of his jail life. What do you hope the biggest takeaway is from

[00:06:06] somebody that's reading this book that might not necessarily have any sort of really a

[00:06:11] historical background of what's what was going on at the time? Or just in general, I guess,

[00:06:19] what do you want the impact to be of releasing these? I would say that

[00:06:24] take it for me from reading these letters is that a man can be of heroic dimensions,

[00:06:36] but also very human. He can be a maker of history, but he can also be an extremely

[00:06:47] solitary and sometimes agonized person, very vulnerable to conflicting emotions,

[00:06:55] including deep depression and anxieties. So the takeaway for me is that great events in the world

[00:07:09] happen very often at the hands of very simple human beings who are just faced with the chance

[00:07:23] to take very decisive steps according to their conscience and knowing that they may be going

[00:07:29] wrong, knowing that they may be doing something which will not work. But like many years later,

[00:07:36] Nelson Mandela in his prison in South Africa, unaware of when he will be released,

[00:07:42] when he will be freed, whether he will ever see freedom like him. Gandhi also had moments of deep

[00:07:52] gloom when he had no idea about what his struggle is going to achieve, but to remain

[00:08:02] committed, to remain absolutely persistent, persevering, not to let go of their

[00:08:13] basic faith in India's destiny in his case, India's destiny, destiny in freedom.

[00:08:23] So here's a man who is deeply human, deeply conscious of his paling, his weaknesses,

[00:08:31] but also feeling that he has been touched by a power bigger than himself.

[00:08:41] What do you say that same mindset has impacted your own life? I mean, I was looking into your

[00:08:45] background and kind of preparation for this interview and looking at all the amazing things

[00:08:50] that you've done and all the impact that you've had on the world. Do you think

[00:08:55] that that same mindset is something that you carry? No, no, no Spencer. I am a very

[00:09:05] ordinary guy who has just descended from an extraordinary man. So there is nothing of that

[00:09:15] in me and I would be very unwise in thinking that I have got any of his characters,

[00:09:28] any of his attributes, no touch of his greatness in me Spencer, just a sense of awe and

[00:09:37] gratefulness at having read these letters and other writings of his like anybody else.

[00:09:45] I regard myself as a student of Gandhi, nothing more. Fair enough. Well, I mean you were,

[00:09:52] you've had some political experience with India too as well and it seems like climate change is

[00:09:59] something that has been kind of something that's important to you and I guess what are

[00:10:05] some of the big issues that you think are kind of pressing the world right now and what role do

[00:10:10] you think India plays in those? Thank you for asking that question. It's a very important

[00:10:18] question because we can't talk about Gandhi and talk only about his letters and his

[00:10:25] personal circumstances out of the context of our times. I think if Gandhi had been alive

[00:10:33] today, which means of course he would have been more than 150 years old, but if he had been alive

[00:10:40] today I think he would have been deeply concerned by three major global situations. One is what

[00:10:52] you mentioned the visible and palpable collapse of the physical environment due to global warming

[00:11:02] and climate change, which means due to human error, due to human callousness and he would have had a

[00:11:10] lot to say to the world, both the so-called developed world and the so-called developing

[00:11:17] world about what they should be doing, what it should be doing and it should not be doing,

[00:11:22] particularly what it should not be doing. So I think global warming would have been

[00:11:26] a very major concern for him. The conservation of natural resources, the conservation of our

[00:11:35] rivers and Antarctica for instance, I know would have been very high on his agenda because the way

[00:11:41] Antarctica is melting is an indication of how climate change is impacting on the whole

[00:11:49] world and Antarctica and the Maldives islands are going to sink. The North Pole begins to thaw

[00:12:00] and the impact of that is global. The seasons and the cycles of seasons have changed so that

[00:12:08] would have been a major concern. The second would have been the weaponization of the world

[00:12:20] in terms of nuclear, chemical and biological warheads. The amassing of

[00:12:30] destructive warheads across the world requires a drastic intervention and this is no theory. Spencer,

[00:12:44] as we are talking, error or terror can unleash a global blow up, error or terror and Gandhi

[00:12:59] would have been working eight days a week towards disarmament. And the third thing, and I think the

[00:13:10] last thing as a person who has been in prison, who knows what jail life means, I think he would

[00:13:18] have worked for the improvement of jail conditions across the world, the improvement in the way

[00:13:28] prisons and prisoners exist and the way in which those who are outside seem to not even know that

[00:13:39] there is something called a prison, don't even seem to know that there are just around the corner

[00:13:47] in a prison. Human beings who probably are not guilty or even if they are guilty, who should

[00:13:52] not be treated the way they are being treated. I think he would have worked for prison reform is

[00:13:58] the very essential form of human rights. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense just knowing

[00:14:08] some about his background and knowing how those things would still, they're still relevant today

[00:14:12] and they're relevant then and they're relevant now. In terms of the climate change aspect of

[00:14:18] it, you kind of mentioned that there's some solutions there with the weaponization and

[00:14:23] with the improvement of jail conditions. What do you think the solution is whenever it comes to,

[00:14:27] I guess on a global scale, what do you think the solution is when it comes to climate change?

[00:14:33] How do we solve that? The solution is not just with governments but with society. Governments

[00:14:39] have in degrees which are not always the best or always

[00:14:48] the most desirable have done something. I believe

[00:14:54] Government of India has taken some very crucial steps towards reducing India's own

[00:15:03] contribution as I call it to global warming, to carbon emissions. But society, we the people

[00:15:13] of our countries need to do a great deal to curb consumption, to curb the way we dispose our garbage,

[00:15:23] the use of plastics and the use of very scarce non-renewable resources. We are living blind folded.

[00:15:36] We think that all the resources that we have, all the facilities that we command in terms of energy,

[00:15:46] in terms of electricity, in terms of fuel, in terms of water have no limit. But the fact is that

[00:15:55] they do have a limit and the fact is that they can just turn off like that. So we need to do as much

[00:16:05] as the people as governments need to do but we also need to push governments, push governments to their

[00:16:14] ultimate limits in what they can and should do in terms of policy, in terms of what they are themselves

[00:16:22] doing in the in the guise of development. This is crucial. I must say the Government of India

[00:16:33] has taken some very encouraging steps in this direction but the combination

[00:16:42] of people and government working together to tackle this issue across the world is far, far away

[00:16:50] from where it should be. It's too little and it should not become too late. Yeah, I mean with

[00:16:58] the sheer population of India and its role on just a global scale, I mean India is going to be

[00:17:04] a huge part in that I would imagine. Do you think the changes that are being made in India

[00:17:10] right now are adequate in terms of reverse in this issue or getting ahead of it before it gets too bad?

[00:17:16] Countries like India and former colonies of imperial powers, it's been pushed very much back

[00:17:31] into the underdeveloped category are contributing a very small part to global warming.

[00:17:47] In terms of their population, what they are doing to warm the globe is very little compared to what

[00:17:57] is happening at the hands of the developed world. This is a stark reality and despite this,

[00:18:09] India is doing whatever it can to limit its footprint on nature and this is a considerable

[00:18:21] cost to its requirements for investment in infrastructure and in development, considerable

[00:18:29] cost but it is doing so. But the awareness of the people of India, the awareness of the people of

[00:18:36] not just India but of South Asia in their stake in global warming limitation is very little,

[00:18:51] very inadequate. We do not know the value and the vulnerability of our conservation needs,

[00:19:06] we do not appreciate fully the urgency of the situation and are allowing ourselves to drift

[00:19:17] into the current of wastage and of misuse and this from what you said so rightly, the situation of being

[00:19:34] a heavy population country. And there I must again say to my relief that India has brought down

[00:19:45] the birth rate phenomenally, phenomenally. Its death rate has also come down phenomenally.

[00:20:03] So the population profile of India is becoming something to be looked at with admiration if

[00:20:20] the population of India has been rising despite this. It is not for want of effort,

[00:20:29] it is not for want of improvement but just the absolute numbers being what they are.

[00:20:36] The fact that people are not dying in India as they used to. The death rate has fallen

[00:20:44] is a major cause for the increase in our population. A good cause when they cause it for the increase

[00:20:51] in our population. So you mentioned that you think that some of the I guess the public

[00:21:00] awareness of the situation in India and it could be said probably on a global scale in every

[00:21:05] country in the US and everywhere. The kind of the societal awareness of these issues is low.

[00:21:13] How do you think that you are able to pull more of society on board with these ideas that might

[00:21:20] be needed to kind of solve this issue? That's a very important question, very important question.

[00:21:28] This is where Frank talk is required. Gandhi believed in talking frankly,

[00:21:35] critically, self-critically to the people of the country. He did not mince his words. He spoke

[00:21:43] the bitter truth and I think that is what is needed today for the leadership across the world

[00:21:51] to speak frankly about what is happening to the world's climate, what is happening to the earth's

[00:22:01] surface, what is happening to our rivers and our ice caps, what is happening to our glaciers,

[00:22:08] what we are doing to our beaches. This is something where hard talk, hard talk to the

[00:22:16] extended being harsh is required and I must say here that I have some hope in the new

[00:22:30] King Charles III who has taken a lot of interest in the matter of the physical environment

[00:22:39] and the protection of the forests to the world. I have some hope in his being able to send a message

[00:22:48] from his high seat to all the governments and peoples of the world in a way which

[00:22:56] a philosopher might do, not a monarch but a social philosopher. That is what we need today.

[00:23:05] We need leaders to be social philosophers and social philosophers to be leaders.

[00:23:13] Yeah, that is some powerful stuff for sure. That definitely makes sense and how that could help

[00:23:18] really have that impact on the societal level and kind of to switch gears I guess.

[00:23:24] So I do not know if you know anything about out there Colorado but we are an outdoor recreation

[00:23:29] publication so we are all about promoting the preservation of Colorado and its beauty

[00:23:37] and everything along the lines of that as well as safety. So I guess when it comes out

[00:23:45] outdoor recreation what type of stuff do you like to do outside, how do you feel like you can

[00:23:50] connect with nature the most? If I have to answer that question as somebody who is going to

[00:23:57] visit Colorado I should wait till I get there and I should not anticipate too much but I must say this

[00:24:05] that my wife who is a bird watcher and an onisologist is looking forward to seeing

[00:24:13] the natural world in Colorado and I am looking forward to seeing

[00:24:19] the something of the river and I believe that California gets water from Colorado.

[00:24:28] Now that is something astonishing it's not next door it's quite far but there again you can see

[00:24:37] how important it is for rivers to remain rivers and not to become what were rivers.

[00:24:47] Rivers have to remain in full velocity and they have to remain clean

[00:24:55] in order to be able to do what rivers do. We in the world have mistreated our rivers and our beaches

[00:25:06] our mountains and our forests and that has to stop and once again I think the most important

[00:25:15] thing to do though we don't realize it is this fact that we are living on the brink of man made

[00:25:27] danger in terms of weapons which error and terror can detect. Yeah no that makes sense

[00:25:38] yeah I've always felt like I've always felt one of the best ways to get people to care about

[00:25:43] nature is to really just get them out into nature so that's always been one of my big things is trying

[00:25:47] to just promote people getting outside and seeing it for themselves. Are you interested in nature?

[00:25:55] Are you interested in the environment? Yeah I love it. I mean it's hard to see things change

[00:26:05] especially when you see what's happening out in California and Arizona and New Mexico and just

[00:26:11] different issues with water and the water resource specifically it's pretty scary

[00:26:16] and even just with how we were looking at something the other day it was a report that said I think in

[00:26:21] 30 years they expect parts of Colorado to be in this heat belt situation where right now our

[00:26:27] maximum temperature is probably 105 degrees Fahrenheit throughout the year. They expected

[00:26:33] to be about 125 degrees Fahrenheit within the next 30 years or so in a large swath of America

[00:26:38] so and just even as we were kind of talking a little bit about just energy as a resource

[00:26:44] the immense pool on energy that will happen whenever those temperatures increase and people

[00:26:51] want their air conditioning even it's going to be interesting to see how we can adjust to that

[00:26:58] I would say for sure people definitely like their air conditioning in Colorado and even more

[00:27:04] so in the Midwest where they expect temperatures to rise even more rapidly. Would you say that the

[00:27:11] younger generation Spencer your generation is aware of the problem of environmental degradation

[00:27:19] of global warming climate change? Is it aware of it? I would say the awareness of our generation

[00:27:26] is much higher than some older generations in America specifically but I would also say that

[00:27:34] our generation probably feels like they have a little bit less power to control that you see people

[00:27:44] yeah our generation doesn't necessarily have as much money and as many resources as near

[00:27:49] tips short of technology though so I think you're going to start seeing a lot of people

[00:27:53] from the younger generation using technology to kind of make up for that gap in resources maybe

[00:27:59] so but we'll see we'll see how that shakes out but I guess in terms of India though too

[00:28:06] one thing that impressed me when I was when I was traveling in it was just the natural beauty

[00:28:10] of the entire country. We went around Rajasthan for a bit we went up to Dharamsala and just

[00:28:16] seeing how many natural resources how many different landscapes there were that were just so beautiful

[00:28:20] across the country it was really stunning to me and the whole time I was there I was just thinking like

[00:28:27] it'd be it'd be really great to build that interest and outdoor recreation and and maybe use that as

[00:28:33] a means of building infrastructure in some of these in some of these places across the countryside

[00:28:39] they would be beautiful and and I wonder if something along the lines of that could

[00:28:44] be beneficial when it comes to increasing the societal interest in the environment

[00:28:49] and delighted to know that you were in India and that you were in Rajasthan

[00:28:54] the traditional water conservation in homes in Rajasthan people had rainwater harvesting in Rajasthan

[00:29:03] for centuries in their homes and the wells and the step wells in the villages of Rajasthan

[00:29:09] where there has been a tradition of saving rainwater that is a great story. Yeah we went to

[00:29:17] an older an older fortress in Bundy and we saw the the steps and the water conservation there

[00:29:24] and how they would store the water underneath the underneath the structures and then yeah that was

[00:29:29] absolutely amazing to see that. There are several traditions in India and leaders from the

[00:29:38] simple people of India who have done enormously you know of the Chipko movement the Chipko movement

[00:29:46] in the in the Himalayas where the women of the village they hugged the trees they just

[00:29:56] clung to the trees when timber merchants came with electric saws to cut them and they said we

[00:30:04] are not going to let you cut these trees they are our life they are like us they're like people

[00:30:11] so the Chipko movement started with the people and there are so we have tremendous

[00:30:18] initiatives in India which are very hope-giving and they are the leaders of the environmental

[00:30:25] movement in India. Are you starting to see some of their successes in India would you say

[00:30:32] India as they're trying to kind of lead this same movement in a more modernized world?

[00:30:37] They have most definitely impacted on ecological thinking not to the extent of

[00:30:51] influencing large populations no but in a very key manner in a very effective manner they have shown

[00:31:05] the example what simple people can do to say no to what can be called the onslaught of

[00:31:21] the modern gospel of development as against the wisdom of conservation they stand for a kind

[00:31:31] of balance which is what we need balance is the answer a balance not between this much

[00:31:44] tiny amount of conservation against a huge volume of

[00:31:53] cement but a fair balance where the needs of development which are real

[00:32:00] are balanced with the needs of conservation because we cannot let a whole forest go because

[00:32:09] of the need for timber we cannot throttle a river to make electricity there has to be balance

[00:32:20] and there has to be wisdom easily said not so easy to do but these people whom I mentioned

[00:32:30] and the wisdom of Rajasthan's step-mills of Himalaya's Chipko and of the many small

[00:32:40] movements across the country which are local to save a particular valley which has wildlife

[00:32:52] rare wildlife or a particular forest which has a mix of floristics which are extremely precious

[00:33:05] to just preserve them against say a giant scheme which may wipe them out

[00:33:16] so balance is what is necessary and our governments through the years that we've been independent

[00:33:23] now 75 years have tried to achieve their balance with varying success but they have tried to achieve it

[00:33:30] so I think that's a good question.

[00:33:31] In terms of kind of conveying that I guess that need for balance and conservation when there's

[00:33:37] so much pressure to probably develop and especially when money is involved you know people that are

[00:33:43] powerful just want more development so they can kind of make more money I think you tend to see

[00:33:47] that a lot of the time how do you think that you can effectively convey that balance to

[00:33:54] two people outside of just the strong leaders saying that they should be doing that is there

[00:34:01] a way to maybe convey that just on a worldwide scale outside of just the strong leadership?

[00:34:08] The only way to do it is to follow Gandhi and which is really a matter of

[00:34:17] saying it as it is not leaving it in pure theory but saying it as it is and doing

[00:34:28] what can be called in Gandhi's terms non-violent but passionate and restless conservation

[00:34:39] non-violent and passionate and restless but non-violent first and Spencer I must say here that

[00:34:53] Gandhi would not have wanted his image or his words to be enshrined he would have been interested in

[00:35:03] the substance the real issues involved and I must say that today Gandhi's work is being done by many

[00:35:17] people who don't take Gandhi's name they don't connect Gandhi with what they're doing they're

[00:35:21] just doing it because it's the right thing to do it's exactly what Gandhi would have

[00:35:26] liked it does not matter if Gandhi's name is not taken by those who do work in the three areas that

[00:35:35] I mentioned this Gandhi would have regarded as very important. In terms of the kind of the climate

[00:35:43] change and preservation is there is there any particular effort in India that you're

[00:35:48] particularly proud of or that you think is going really well?

[00:35:51] I think the rescuing of India's forest cover from almost certain decimation is one of the great

[00:36:08] achievements of the environment movement in India the sense of the importance of trees

[00:36:15] of flora is a major victory and it is not a complete victory but it is a major victory

[00:36:27] the constituency of India's forests is known, recognized and respected trees are being cut

[00:36:42] even now whenever a major project requires them to be cut but it never happens without protest

[00:36:51] and it never happens without some explanation being given and very often some reparation also

[00:36:58] so I think the lobby if I may use a word which is not a very complementary word but

[00:37:05] the lobby for the protection of India's forests is a strong lobby

[00:37:13] and then you would say that the government's behind some of that effort too

[00:37:17] and it's the lobby connecting with the government and the government acting on that then

[00:37:22] the government has to listen it doesn't often agree but it has to listen

[00:37:31] and the laws in force require public hearings before such things are

[00:37:41] and those such projects are executed sometimes these public hearings are not entirely

[00:37:48] satisfying to environment conservationists but they are part of the law

[00:37:56] yeah now that's that is that's amazing to hear how you do see some of that happening in India then

[00:38:07] I would imagine most people here have no, most people here you know tend to focus on

[00:38:15] the efforts that are happening in America and they don't necessarily hear very much about

[00:38:19] what's going on around the world too and I think even just sharing that message that it is a

[00:38:23] global effort and that other big countries are making big moves can kind of help make the moves

[00:38:31] that are being made over here a little bit more legitimate as well if that makes sense

[00:38:35] I in Spencer since we started our conversation with Chennai where I am now located

[00:38:43] I must also say something about Chennai the Chennai is on the eastern seaboard of India

[00:38:48] as you know by the Bay of Bengal and we have a very important and large

[00:38:58] seafront the beaches in Chennai are very important and there has been an amazing voluntary effort

[00:39:09] put in by voluntary groups with the back with the I would say appreciation of the government

[00:39:21] to keep our beaches clean because it is notorious that weekend revelers across the world

[00:39:32] they spread a lot of litter on beaches but it is also true of my city and I say this with great

[00:39:41] pride that voluntary efforts to keep our beaches clean have scored significant success

[00:39:50] and that's a very hopeful sign. Yeah that is a very hopeful sign anytime you see people

[00:39:57] actually in their communities making the difference on the personal level and that's

[00:40:03] that's where the change always seems to start Colorado has always been very

[00:40:07] early in my time here it has been very interested in keeping all the trails clean and there is

[00:40:13] trash cleanups on a regular basis and we get really good turnout for those whenever we host them

[00:40:20] with this nonprofit I am involved with and people do seem passionate about keeping

[00:40:26] Colorado clean and keeping Colorado beautiful and I think that's something that

[00:40:30] that is something you'll notice when you're here there's a big thing called

[00:40:34] the Edo Trace. I'm very happy to hear this very happy to hear this in India there is a

[00:40:41] very major program called the Swachh Bharat which is an India Clean program it's a government

[00:40:49] initiated program but it has yet to capture the imagination of the people of India it's

[00:40:59] it is a wonderful project but still to become a way of life but it is a great beginning

[00:41:10] and Gandhi would have been very happy with what is happening in Chennai with the beaches of Chennai

[00:41:19] yeah and I think kind of like what I was saying earlier with the

[00:41:24] I think in Colorado what tends to get so much public involvement is is bringing people into

[00:41:30] that outdoor recreation space and showing them how beautiful the rivers are and showing them

[00:41:34] how beautiful the trails are and really helping helping the public develop a passion for being

[00:41:38] outside. Yeah whenever you're in Boulder you'll see it's a town that's built right on

[00:41:44] right on the mountains absolutely beautiful and absolutely stunning but that's probably one of the

[00:41:49] most environmentally friendly cities even in Colorado and I hope you have a chance whenever

[00:41:58] you're there to connect with some of those people. Oh I look forward to that I look forward to that

[00:42:02] great I'm so honored to be coming to Colorado Spencer I've taken more time than was budgeted

[00:42:09] for and I thank you for your questions and your patience. Yeah thank you so much for taking the

[00:42:15] time to sit down and chat about all this this is a lot of great stuff I think a lot of people

[00:42:18] really benefit from hearing what you have to say and benefit from kind of hearing the lessons of

[00:42:23] Gandhi years later and how those still apply so no the benefit was all on my side I am the beneficiary

[00:42:43] of the community.

[00:42:44] Thanks so much for tuning into this special episode of the Out There Colorado podcast

[00:42:48] we really hope that you enjoyed that interview with Gopal Krishna Gandhi

[00:42:51] until next time keep getting out there Colorado