[00:00:04] Welcome to another episode of the OutThere Colorado Podcast. Once again, I'm Spencer here with Seth. Hello. We got Tim on the audio and the video for today. You can find the full-length video on YouTube usually a couple days after we hit publish for the audio version. So definitely check it out there. Tim does put a lot of work into those and there's a lot of graphics that get added so don't skip out on those. They're pretty cool. But yeah, I mean, might as well just dive right into these Colorado topics. Actually, how was your week?
[00:00:34] How was your weekend? I was gonna say, you're gonna break from a long-term tradition. Man, I know, I know. How was your weekend? I wouldn't have thrown up any complaints. I know Seth's excited to talk about it. All good, man. Yes, I went to a finally 10 years here in Colorado Springs and I finally went to Sandy's for breakfast out east. Out on 24. If you're living closer to the city, you kind of got to want to go to it, but it's definitely like an institution. Been there decades is my understanding. Let's see what the Google already is. Big yellow house.
[00:01:04] Let's see who said so. What is it? It's a 4.7. Okay, once again. Old school breakfast. You know, like you walk in, it has that feel of like ranchers come here. You know, like ranchers out east, out on the plains, right? Kind of small. Like we waited like 45 minutes and, but it was all worth it. Just old school breakfast where you're sitting at like these long tables where you're pretty, you're like next to a stranger, you know? Yeah. But everyone gets along. It's super cool, man. Yeah.
[00:01:33] Described here on Google as a low key enduring American nook. Yeah, there you go. Nice. Well done, Google. Well done. The cinnamon roll is apparently the iconic thing and we actually didn't get that. Oh, they were huge though. Yeah, these photos. I'll go back for a cinnamon roll. So that was fun. I did a nice long run around Monument Valley. Oh, cool. Channeled my inner Spencer to get that run done.
[00:01:59] And then went on a hike around, took the dog around to Garden of the Gods. You know, before it gets crazy busy in the summer, I always try to soak up my Garden of the God days. Yeah, that seems to be a favorite of yours with the dog. Yeah. The dog likes it. A few times. And we kind of ventured into Rockledge Ranch. Oh, yeah. You know? Yeah. That's always where I start, kind of. I was parked on that less traffic side of the park there. But I mean, we went into the farm. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. You got to show the pup the animals. Yeah, exactly.
[00:02:28] My dog won't respond. She'll be standing there right by the sheep or horse or whatever. I was kind of surprised. Not even look at it. I thought my pup was going to get vocal. But no, she was cool with the horse and the sheep. And that's a cool spot. Yeah. I don't know. Sometimes it's so nostalgic, you know? Just like the ponds back in there and open fields. And it just kind of feels like you step back in time back there. Yeah. Out of nowhere. Yeah. Kind of a cool spot. A lot of historical value there, too. Yeah. Yeah. Cool spot for sure. Yeah. That was pretty much my weekend. It was nice. How about you?
[00:02:58] How about you? How about you? How about you? I was probably checking out Lulu's downtown. There you go. Down in Colorado Springs. There you go. A venue that I think they had probably opened two years ago. I think it's about right. I think that's about right. Yeah. Moving from where they were at closer to Manitou Springs. Now they're downtown. And yeah, it was cool video. Yeah. Had a great time. Saw the little comedy show there. Saw the guy from, he does the sub council videos. Huh.
[00:03:23] Where he like kind of trolls the, trolls the city council out in California with like those ridiculous things. Chad Kroger's his name. Nice. But yeah, he did a little comedy show. So wanted to check it out and popped over to see that. I'm a sucker for comedy. Like if there's a comedy show coming to any of the little breweries or any of these downtown spots, I'm always happy to check it out. Yeah. Yeah. If people are familiar, you know, it used to be downstairs. Yeah.
[00:03:51] In Manitou, you literally went underground and it was super cool. And now you go upstairs and it is a cool space, right? Mm-hmm. It's really trendy. Formerly Thirsty Parrot, I think, right? Like looking 10 years back. You'd have no idea if you were in there now. And then it was that like, that pink themed restaurant or pink themed bar, a discotheque something. Okay. Maybe I've forgotten that one. It's had a couple lives in between Thirsty Parrot and then what it is now. But it seems to be settled into this life now. Yeah. Nice venue.
[00:04:20] I would love seeing some music there. And it's just like low key, like big area toward the bar where you can kind of just stand around and mingle. And then there's like the concert area, you know, down on the floor. And yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Kind of Instagrammy in there too. Yeah. Good vibe. Cool lighting and everything. But yeah, let's dig into some of this Colorado news. We got a lot on the top of today. You see a basin once again extended. I did. Was it May? I want to say it's May 17th now is the last day. Just holding on.
[00:04:50] So, hey, good for them. Every bit they can. Got some snow last week. So nice to see a basin getting into mid-May. It looked like they might not even make it to May there like back in February. So, yeah, good to see that being the case. Not a lot of snow on the radar. Looking ahead all the way through May 26th, the map I'm showing, maybe kind of the central mountain range, a small pocket if it gets about three inches from now until then. So don't expect much more snow for the rest of the year.
[00:05:19] I think this last week's snow is the last hurrah, so to speak. Ended up with like 34-ish inches on Long's Peak was one of the reports I saw that's about the same in Estes Park. So a lot of snow and definitely held up to some of the expectations. Drought did get slightly better this last week. On Thursday, that report that got published. Yeah, looking at 96% of the state in drought now opposed to 100 the previous week.
[00:05:47] Did not decline in terms of the severity and coverage index. So, or did not decline much. It dropped by seven points. So it's still a bad situation in Colorado. But yeah, what else? What other news came out? Did you see this wolf report? All the information about like how many wolves are in Colorado? How many died last year? I count on you for my wolf reports, man. Man, so I put together this piece, 35 key takeaways. Okay. Got to go over a few. 35? Yeah, it was a big report.
[00:06:17] There was a lot of information in there. Okay. So the latest information as far as Colorado's wolves go is that there are 32 known wolves in Colorado. Okay. I would imagine that's limited to just the wolves that are collared. The way that they put it is it's a minimum of 32. Yeah. Right. Minimum of 32. 24 of those 32 wolves are in packs. There are four packs in Colorado. Okay. Okay. One of the packs, I found this pretty interesting.
[00:06:46] The King Mountain pack is only pups. There are no, the patriarch died and the matriarch died within the last few months really, both in 2026. There are no pups. One due to capture related complications. And then the female died later, about a month and a half later. And that death is still under investigation. But there are four pups in this pack. So I found that to be kind of interesting, just thinking that these four are out there. Are out there. Pretty new pups are out there.
[00:07:17] What are the names of the packs? Do you know? Yeah. So there's the One Ear Pack. The One Ear Pack. There's the King Mountain Pack. There's the Copper Creek Pack. And then there's the Three Creeks Pack. Yeah. King Mountain Pack is definitely the coolest name. Oh yeah. If you want to be a part of one of those. Yeah. And there's a, they're pretty much all, all these packs. So whenever you see. That's relevant to the conversation. Hey, it is a good name. Cool names of a pack. It is a cool name. Anyway, sorry. But it's worth noting too, you'll see a lot of maps regarding like the wolf distribution in Colorado.
[00:07:46] All of these packs have kind of, you know, they're all in that Northwest quadrant of the state. Kind of in that Steamboat Springs area, you kind of have three packs that are operating around that. And then one that's in the Aspen area, the Copper Creek Pack. So, and the Copper Creek Pack was the first pack to form. So that one's been down there. Also one of the packs that has been causing, causing some issues with livestock. One of the wolves from the Copper Creek Pack was killed.
[00:08:16] This over the last year because of, I think it, I want to say there were three or four depredation incidences that were pinned on these wolves. They tried to kill another one, but that one got away and they ended up ultimately calling that off. But yeah, over the last year and this data is essentially accounting for April 1st, 2025 through March 31st, 2026. 10 wolves died. Three of those deaths are still under investigation.
[00:08:43] Two wolves were killed outside of Colorado as a legal effort. So got to think if I remember correctly, that happened in Wyoming where they went across the border, where it's legal to kill wolves in many, many parts of the state and the majority of the state and under many different circumstances. So two of those wolves were killed outside of Colorado. One was killed by entrapment, one killed by mountain lion, the one that died during the capture effort that I mentioned. One killed for control measures.
[00:09:12] That was the one from the Copper Creek Pack in Pitkin County. One killed from a vehicle strike and then three deaths under investigation. Survival rate is an interesting thing too. So the survival rate for Colorado's wolves was only 61%. Wow. When you look at the number of deaths that took place. Do you remember, did they have a target goal there or an expectation when this was all rolling out? Yes. Percentage wise?
[00:09:37] So the target is if the death rate is, or if the survival rate is less than 70%, it triggers a review of the process. Uh, they did that review and essentially it's a review of how they capture transport and release these wolves. They concluded that the capture effort, the transporting effort and the release effort wasn't the issue. So no other action is going to be taken. Um, it's other things that are killing these wolves essentially.
[00:10:05] So, and you and I, uh, both know along with listeners that there is a plenty of contention to that finding, right? There's, we have to, when we, when we go over these things, I always feel like we have to recognize, like, we, we know people like, you know, we're going through the details. There's a lot of controversy all around it, you know? Yeah. For every point that CPW says or claims there is a big counterpoint. Yeah. No doubt. One of those situations. Yeah.
[00:10:35] You gotta, gotta always keep that in mind. Yeah. There's a lot of complaints that have continued to be ongoing. Yeah. Uh, and we go through these details and it's not like we're, we're being negligent of, of the controversy. Yes. Those exist. And a key part of this, um, depredation, right? Livestock depredation. Yep. So that was something that this report looked at as well. Uh, 43 wolf depredations occurred during this time period.
[00:11:01] So 19 cattle or 19 head of cattle, one working dog and 23 sheep. Um, a total of 43,000 was paid out with an additional 709,000 approved, uh, by Colorado parks and wildlife for compensation related to missing livestock, decreased conception rates and decreased weights across five different claims. So, uh, it's getting expensive. I saw something, um, from, uh, Marion Goodland up at, uh, Denver Gazette the other day was put
[00:11:29] in like a million in costs or something for the last year. I want to say, um, I'm going to pull that up real quick just so I make sure I get that right. Um, yeah. So here, uh, Colorado on the hook for 1 million in costs to pay for wolves livestock kills. Wow. So, wow. I don't know. And we know where things stand with the federal. Oh, go ahead. That's 20, 13 shows PG, 13, uh, 2025 alone is when that one point, one point and change million.
[00:11:59] Um, so yeah, sorry. What were you saying? Where the federal, that federal order stands with the, uh, was it, was it fish and wildlife that came down and. Yeah. Um, where they essentially said we couldn't use. No more taken wolves. Yeah. From Canada. Yeah. Um, I mean, I think that's probably caused some issues. Uh, there were no wolves that were introduced into the state this last spring. Right. So they missed a, missed a year of, uh, introduction. Of the plan anyway. Yeah.
[00:12:28] And I think to be honest, I think they're kind of on par with the numbers they're hoping to get. So were they, did they need to reintroduce any to stay on track with their goal? Um, I think you could maybe say no there just because the pup, there have been a lot of pups that have been, uh, have been born in Colorado. I think the number was, I want to say 12. Okay. Um, new pups here.
[00:12:51] Uh, I know I have that at some point in my notes, but, um, yeah, either way, uh, there were, there were a lot of, a lot of pups that, um, that were birthed over the last year. Mm-hmm . So adding to that, that population. So I think that helps, uh, in that regard. Um, but yeah, I think that kind of continues, uh, or that issue kind of continues. I think the biggest issue now is that if they're restricted to the United States, all these states have been like, no, we're not giving you wolves.
[00:13:20] So where do they get the wolves from? You know, um, it's definitely been posing some, posing some issues there. Um, but yeah, I mean, that's kind of, uh, oh, maybe also worth noting there was no formal investigation regarding how, uh, wolves are killing the ungulate populations. Mm. So, uh, you know, deer, elk, um, yep. But they do have, uh, some of the deer and elk in these, these high intensity monitoring
[00:13:49] areas is how they define it, uh, fitted with collars to monitor survival. So kind of looking ahead, there will probably be more information on what type of impact wolves are having among these prey populations. Yeah. And that'll be interesting because, you know, going back to the beginning, I mean, why was, um, you know, why was this pushed by advocates with this idea of some population control for some eco return to ecological balance? Yeah. Right. Yeah. And you got, I think that's a big part of the equation. Chronic wasting disease too.
[00:14:19] Like that's been a big factor, um, in recent years, uh, something that's really impacting Colorado cervid populations. So, um, yeah, they were in a big, a big reason why chronic wasting disease can spread so quickly is when areas are overpopulated and when a lot of, a lot of these, uh, populations are close together. So some people were pointing to the addition of wolves to landscape as an apex predator as being something that can be used to control these populations so that it limits the spread of
[00:14:49] chronic wasting disease. And more broadly, I mean, what those ungulates impact are on the forest, right. Mm-hmm . And other food sources for other species, right. This domino effect that happens in, uh, in the absence of a predator. Mm-hmm . Right. But to the other side of that, it is certainly a change, change landscape since wolves left the environment and yeah, an ongoing question of what the return of wolves mean to Colorado. Yeah.
[00:15:19] I'll speak for Seth when I say neither of us are here to say we think this way or that way. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of, there's more than two sides to this conversation, man. Yeah. And you and I, you know, yeah, we're just, we're just two dudes. Yeah. Just two dudes. Relaying the information. Reading the reports. Yeah. Also, so management, I guess I might as well mention that as well. Um, 78 sites have been assessed, uh, in the last year in terms of like, how can they, you
[00:15:49] know, prevent livestock depredation and what can they do to make sure these wolves are, you know, they're limiting any sort of negative impact from wolves being in an area. Uh, that brings a total of 282 since the re or since 2022. So since a little bit before that reintroduction started. Um, so range riders played a big role in protecting livestock producers this year. Uh, I think it was said where, uh, yeah.
[00:16:15] So here, um, four, so there were, uh, 11 range riders in total, right? 4,324 hours of range riding traveling a total of 14,800 miles protecting livestock. So pretty wild in that regard. Um, almost 14 miles of fladgery, uh, which is like the little, I think it's the flag devices that are meant to like kind of scare wolves away, uh, if I'm understanding correctly. Um, but yeah, about 14 miles of that was deployed over the last year.
[00:16:45] Uh, I believe they didn't lose any livestock where that was deployed to. So, uh, during cal, during calving season at least. Uh, so it sounds like some of those, uh, some of those efforts are working to limit some of the depredation. Uh, but yeah, that's a lot of talk about wolves. So, uh, yeah, that's the wolf update, but it is, it is the annual report. So it's the most significant update of the year. Everyone's curious how many wolves are here, how many are dying, but you know, what are they killing?
[00:17:20] Uh, I guess Friday and, uh, that wrote about it today. Um, Boulder County is one of the state's major outdoor recreation hubs is considering a program that would limit trail use to certain activities on certain days of the week. So like, for example, a trail will be open on Monday to only hikers on Tuesday to only bikers on Wednesday to only horse users. Mm hmm. Very interesting.
[00:17:46] Like I haven't, you mentioned there's a couple of places in Colorado that, um, have implemented something similar. I haven't really heard about this strategy at all. And they're kind of in this, this stage right now where they're seeking public input about this proposal, um, for, for some sort of like a pilot program where it's this temporary, let's, you know, let's test it, see if it works out, see how people like it, see where it doesn't work. Um, they're in that phase now.
[00:18:15] And then if this, you know, successful, then maybe this becomes something more permanent. And I have to think, you know, I mean, a lot of places look to Boulder when they think outdoor recreation, could this set up some sort of a trend where certain trails all around the state or all around the country are limited to hikers or bikers or horse horseback riders per trail system, depending on the day of the week. I it's interesting. I mean, what's your, what's your thought? Very interesting. Yeah.
[00:18:44] And the concept called alternating use. Right. So yeah, like you mentioned, I I'm aware. They're in Jefferson County, right? Jefferson County parks and open space. So there again, a major recreation hub on the front range, you know, some of the most popular parks and open spaces that Denverites reach are within Jefferson County, their, their system. Um, I think Jeffco reports something like 10 million visitors to their, to their system
[00:19:11] every year, which is a very broad system to be clear. I mean, it's, it's so big that I think a lot of people are in these places and they don't realize it's a Jefferson County, you know, park or open space. So just to have that kind of context, but two places that people probably do know about being apex park and another being Centennial Cone park, right? Is it park Centennial Cone park? Yeah.
[00:19:35] Those are two places where we do see this alternating use or some variation of it. Right. So it, uh, in, in some portions of these parks, it should be said to where we see even in odd days for hikers and cyclists and other users. Right. Um, so they rolled that out maybe like five or six years ago, um, in the name of, uh, addressing user conflict. Right.
[00:20:02] Um, it's, it's, it should go without saying, I mean, um, a desired experience on a mountain bike is going fast downhill, um, and increasing desire as the technology increases, uh, in capability and it is no hikers desire to be hit by a downhill mountain bike. Right. Yeah. Uh, so how do you address this? There's a lot of different ideas and thoughts for how to do that, but this alternating use
[00:20:30] was one idea, at least in Jefferson County, open space, parks and open space. Um, I think maybe it's a different conversation, but a conversation I'm having this week, uh, for a story coming out later is, is just this kind of broader idea of single use. Right. Again, one might say this alternating use is a, is, is a, is a different animal, but nonetheless still trying to address this issue that we're talking about of sharing the trail or maybe
[00:21:00] instances where this use should get separated. Right. And we've seen that, we see that everywhere, um, with single, single use designations, bike only trails or uphill bike only with hikers, right? Hiker only trails too. Hiking only trails. Lots of hikers. Hiking only trails. Hiking only trails, right. Where that experience is preserved just for hikers. Right. Um, yeah, I'm just kind of curious as to like how, how this conversation's how this conversation
[00:21:29] has been developing over the past 10 or so years. Right. Again, with this increased use in mountain biking and again, with this increased capability of mountain bikes. Um, and this is one example of that, like the conversation leading to this idea of, do we split out certain days where, Hey, it's a hiking day or Hey, it's about biking day. And how is that settling with people in Boulder County? We're already hearing, uh, at least from the mountain biking side of things that, um, the
[00:21:58] Boulder mountain bike, what is that? The Boulder mountain bike Alliance or the nonprofit there. Boulder mountain bike Alliance has come out against this stating some concerns saying the data doesn't really support, um, the visitation data doesn't really support this being necessary. And, um, you know, that how do we address this issue by, um, by not splitting off use, but by introducing other trails. Right. And allowing more mountain bike use. Right.
[00:22:28] So it's, it's a long and involved conversation, I think. Um, but it's an interesting one nonetheless, for sure. And especially as yeah. Like, um, yeah. Sharing the trail, like this idea that, uh, is so ingrained in us and there's been, there's been a lot of effort to increase that education. And what does this mean to that conversation? Right. Yeah.
[00:22:53] And that's what I was thinking too, because it's like, you mentioned how there's definitely some friction or a safety concern maybe, uh, when it comes to, you know, bikers and hikers specifically, I don't think the horses are as much of a concern in the, in the greater conversation, but bikers and hikers, um, share in the trail there. There there's a safety concern there. There's also kind of this like level of conflict that exists in some cases. And I mean, I've been on the trail before where, you know, people aren't following the
[00:23:23] right away. I'll be running up the trail and have a lot of mountain bikers coming at me in a large group. And then all of a sudden you have to break your uphill stride to let 15 or 20 bikers just go by you blasting on the trail. And it's like, and I mean, I love biking too, but, but part of me wonders how much of these issues that are being brought up could be solved just by promoting better trail, adequate, just from, yeah, adequate. Yeah. Yeah. But from the start, yeah.
[00:23:52] I mean, I think that that would solve a lot of the issues as well. Um, because in my mind too, and we were talking about this before we started recording, but, uh, my concern with something like this would be that could get really confusing, especially for people that are out of state and visiting, especially when you're trying to pick, you know, this weekend day or the other weekend day, especially when weather rolls through on certain days. Um, if someone has it in their head that they want to, you know, do a hike on a certain
[00:24:19] trail on the weekend, um, they're going to be planning around weather and maybe that doesn't align with this day use. And maybe they're coming down to Colorado Springs from Denver or something. And, you know, they get blanked out while the other group gets it the next good weather day. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It just kind of adds this whole layer. I can't imagine it'd be a positive reception. We'll say if that, if that makes sense. I had someone describe it to me as like introducing just kind of another layer of chaos or another layer of enforcement, another expense.
[00:24:49] Yeah. How do you enforce this? Um, yeah, I mean, and it's all, it's all getting to this idea that I think everyone can relate to, which is reducing conflict and improving a trail experience. Right. Even if there aren't crashes happening, no mountain biker likes to worry about hitting someone coming down and no hiker likes to worry about a biker potentially flying down. So it's trying to address that.
[00:25:17] Um, but yeah, like what's the best way to do it? Another, another, I think interesting layer of the conversation is, um, in terms of single use, if you're going to allow one use on a trail, do you have to build another trail to achieve the same destination or desire for the other group? And then I think you get into a really tough conversation about just impacting the land. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
[00:25:46] And having parallel, more or less parallel trails causing more braiding on a landscape. Right. And I think that's extremely problematic. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's one, it's hard to find a, a singular answer. Yeah. And sometimes the topography just speaks for itself. People here in Colorado Springs know about the shoots trail. Yeah. Right. Um, there are, I, I still hear that hikers will unknowingly hike up the shoots trail where mountain bikers are flying down.
[00:26:14] But I think aware hikers know that. Yeah. I mean, that is a mountain bike trail, right? Yeah. Mountain bikers have come to love that downhill and there's other options for hikers to get to the upper destination. Specifically a trail called hikers only. I think, or at least it's on a path. Yeah. It's on a, in that exact case. Hikers only. It's, it's interesting timing too. I mean, just as we're seeing, um, this, um, conversation happening in Boulder County,
[00:26:41] um, here in Colorado Springs, we're going to see in the coming weeks or potentially month, uh, a pretty, um, big expansion of bike only trails up around Pike view quarry, uh, in what's Blodgett open space. Mm-hmm . We're going to see some more bike only mileage open there. Right. And what, um, in my mind, it kind of seems like something of a moment for this single use idea. Mm-hmm .
[00:27:08] Uh, in other people's minds, it's kind of just, um, another step in that trajectory of getting to that place of like people just expecting single use, you know? Mm-hmm . So yeah, I, I, I think it's pretty interesting, man. Mm-hmm . And all of, and, and again, like I kind of asked this question of like, the more we talk about single use, are we getting away from all this effort and education that has gone into sharing the trail? Yeah. Right.
[00:27:37] And are we, and are we adding tension between users? Right? Yeah. I had someone respond to that question to me and say, it's the opposite, man. It's, it's, um, it's building advocacy. It's like hikers understanding that's a great place for mountain bikers and it's mountain bikers understanding that's a great place for hikers. So in some minds it's, it's actually the opposite that it's increasing a collective idea
[00:28:06] of sharing these spaces. Right. I can understand that, but yeah. I don't know. Does it encourage growth of a sport? Like if you're not a mountain biker, but you want to go check out an area that's bikes only, are you more likely to try mountain biking? You know? Yeah. Is that something? Um, granted then you also have the question of access, right? If you're going to make a bike only trail, someone has to be able to afford a bike and be able to afford a means of transporting their bike to that spot.
[00:28:33] Um, definitely a higher demand in terms of, uh, how much money goes into, into that sport compared to hiking, I would say. So yeah. I mean, it's interesting. There's a lot of angles here. Like I said, no right answer, but, um, I mean, the only way I guess you ever know how it, how it works is if you do these pilot programs like what Boulder County is proposing here. Yeah. I guess they're just, like you said, they're just starting to collect feedback for the possibility.
[00:29:00] Make sure I'm right and understanding this for the possibility of rolling out a pilot, right? Um, isn't anything on the ground going on right now where they're trying something out? They're currently collecting feedback to potentially try something out? Yes. Collecting feedback. It sounds like they're pretty set on trying a pilot program. Okay. They have a survey, uh, the public, well, so they're doing a town hall meeting, uh, later this week on Wednesday. Uh, but then they also have a survey that's online that people can fill out. When you look at that, it gives you an idea of some of the places that seem to be under consideration.
[00:29:29] Uh, uh, Heil Valley Ranch, uh, Hall Ranch, Walker Ranch, uh, the Tasso Preserve. So those are the four that are specifically mentioned in that survey as like, would you like to see some sort of a, uh, a program like this applied at these spots? So something to follow along with. Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of a pilot rolls out. I also think that this town hall meeting is probably going to be pretty lively in terms of people sharing their opinions on this.
[00:29:59] Yeah. Uh, you know, another interesting thing I heard that might merit adding in here that as I was talking to, um, someone, um, over at, on, on Jefferson County side, um, it's harder to retroactively, um, change a man, a management decisions, right? So it's one thing to open a trail or open an open space and say, these are the designated days for hikers. And these are the designated days for bikers. Yeah.
[00:30:26] It's harder to tell people at these places that they've long known and long had these freedoms that, Hey, we might limit what days you can come here. Right. Well, I mean, even just think about information, right? Right. It's like how many times have I written an article that's saying, here's the time you can go visit this spot, you know, um, here's when Red Rocks Canyon is open for people to visit. And then all of a sudden you make a change like that. And all of these publications that have been writing about this for decades, all of that becomes inaccurate.
[00:30:55] And there's no chance that half of those publications are going to go back and know to edit that and fix that. So where people are getting their information, who the heck knows. Yeah. You type in on Google and you just, whatever article pops up first, you're probably going to read that one and whatever information in that is going to be the right information that you go to the trailhead with. So I would have to imagine that a lot of people are, uh, you know, it could, you really got to put some effort into that education of, of, and that messaging of it whenever you do
[00:31:24] some sort of a change like that. So, um, yeah, pretty, uh, we'll see, we'll see how it pans out. We shall see chapter one, really. Yeah, it is. Um, man, did you see the town of Victor's without water? Really? Yeah. Wow. I did not see that. Uh, stated, or they, uh, declared an emergency, uh, situation, told their residents not to use water until further notice. Uh, basically what happened and, um, this is some, uh, reporting from Odell Isaac at the
[00:31:53] Gazette, uh, put out a piece about this. They were trying to replace a, uh, water main line that was more than 50 years old. Um, section of water line became, uh, dislodged during the excavation process. I think that's since been fixed, but, uh, basically the water treatment and delivery system. Isn't working. So you're talking about this tiny remote town, you know, 300 something residents up at like 9,700 feet right under Pikes Peak, right by Cripple Creek. Uh, and right now no water until further notice. Whoa.
[00:32:21] The, uh, disaster emergency is set to be in place through May 17th right now. Okay. Um, maybe they'll have it fixed before then. The reason for the disaster emergency declaration is seeking like financial and expertise from the state. Right. So it could be a long week in Victor. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, similar situation, what we saw in Walsenburg, right? Not too long ago. Yeah. I mean, we also saw a similar situation in, uh, Manitou Springs recently where there was some sort of a supply issue.
[00:32:49] And, um, but yeah, I mean, in this case, uh, they're literally saying, I think here's the quote. Um, even if your property currently has water pressure, you must stop all use immediately. Yeah. System cannot recover if demand continues to exceed production and storage capacity. Every gallon used delays restoration for your neighbors and the community as a whole. Goodness. Wow. Is the system still intact in Cripple Creek? Is that a separate system? It seems like, yeah. I would imagine so.
[00:33:15] Gosh, I guess I would have maybe just assumed that those water systems are shared. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. But, uh, yeah, people, people can get water for drinking and cooking at the Victor firehouse. Showers are available at the Aspen mine center and the parks and recreation building. So, um, yeah, pretty wild topic to follow along with. I saw that a buddy was telling me about that headline, uh, last night. And, um, what he was saying was, it was like, they had said maybe 48 hours without water. I don't know.
[00:33:44] That's not verified. So maybe it is shorter than that week, but either way, something to follow, follow along with. I'm sure that whatever update is posted will be posted to the city of Victor website. So probably, I mean, it's not really impacting that many people, but for the people that it's impacting, that's a pretty serious situation. Yeah. Best wishes to my friends and Victor. Yeah. Yeah. We were talking about Victor a couple of weeks ago. An underrated mountain town. One might say. Yeah. Yeah. We can go right, uh, right into that.
[00:34:12] Uh, cause we were going to talk about some underrated mountain towns today. Yeah. We talked about Victor last week, pretty in depth. That is definitely an underrated mountain town. Yeah. Uh, they'll get this issue fixed with the water and, and head up there. Maybe don't put it on your summer list. Put it on the summer list. Uh, what's another underrated mountain town you got? You know where my mind goes, man? Pretty close by. Green Mountain Falls. Mm-hmm. Close by to Colorado Springs here. Yeah.
[00:34:38] I kind of think, uh, you know, if you're coming to visit Colorado Springs, maybe you're staying in Colorado Springs. Maybe you're going to Manitou Springs. If you're going much beyond Manitou Springs, maybe you're going to the Pikes Peak Highway. Maybe you're going even farther beyond, uh, some of the bigger stuff in Teller County and beyond. But do people pull off for wonderful little green mountain falls? They should. A hiking paradise. I have called it. There is some really great hiking trails. You can go find the garden of Eden. Yeah. Someone wants to look that up.
[00:35:07] That's a good one. Yeah. Um, what's that? The Catamount Trail that goes to the Garden of Eden. Yeah. I don't know. Is Catamount Trail open up to the reservoirs again? That's my understanding. Yeah. It is. Okay, good. Because that is a beautiful trail. Yeah. You know, you might call it a quintessential trail in the Pikes Peak region. Perfectly named too, because it's named after like the mountain lions, right? Yeah. It's one of those, uh, one of those, uh, trails where when you're on it, you kind of feel like you're being watched. You're in their territory. Yeah.
[00:35:34] It's, it's, uh, especially when you're kind of going, you know, just by yourself through that garden, the Eden stretch. Mm-hmm . And then I can't help but just feel like I'm being watched on that trail. Yeah. Like this is not my home. Yeah. Uh, great breakfast place there. The pantry. Yes. I don't know if they still do the cow, is it the cowboy breakfast that they call it, where it was like a breakfast buffet and there was music by the creek. I don't know if that was Saturdays or Sundays or if it's even going on at all anymore, but I love the pantry for breakfast.
[00:36:03] Um, the, the, the pond right there, they call it a lake. Mm-hmm . It feels like a big pond or a very small lake. I don't know what you would call it, but you can walk along that. It says they do the cowboy breakfast still. Okay. Cowboy breakfast buffet. There you go. And then what is the Saturday and Sunday? What's the, the sky box or what do they call that thing, man? The, I was trying to come up with that name too. Uh, what was that called? I think it is called the sky box, right? You might be right.
[00:36:32] Sky space, but it's shaped like a box. Yes. The sky space. You can check out like programming for that, right? There's certain times like early morning or maybe late, uh, toward evenings, toward sunset where you can go and have like an experience in there, like a guided experience. Um, but you can also just walk to it, just hike to it and wonder what the heck this is, which might lead you to learning a little more about, I think the artist named James Terrell, right?
[00:36:58] Um, anyway, Green Mountain Falls, funky overlooked mountain town. Well, we should, we should say a little bit more about sky space too. It's essentially a room with a hole in the ceiling, right? Like it was some colored lights and stuff like, is that the roof like alternates or something like that. There's some technology up there. Very cool. I'm not entirely clear on it. It is really cool. The photos look very cool. It looks like a great way to appreciate, uh, just see a different perspective of nature. Yeah. Yeah. Green Mountain Falls is really pretty. What about you? What's an underrated mountain town on your list?
[00:37:28] Man, I've said it before. I think Salida is one of the most underrated mountain towns in Colorado, especially when you're looking at mountain towns that are very accessible, but still tend to get kind of skipped, right? People always end up in Buena Vista. That's a, that's a very popular summer spot. Not as many people go down to Salida and Salida has, you know, its own fair share of just plenty of 14 or trail heads. You got river access right there. You've got very good food. You do.
[00:37:58] Uh, you got, it was a moonlight brewery and pizza. Uh, that's, that's one of my favorites. I love that sandwich place. Yeah. And you've got, you've got scenic drives. Like if you just want to go down, there's a big horn sheep Canyon, I think right there on, uh, was it highway 50 connecting into Canyon city? Or you go up to Monarch pass. You do the Monarch crest aerial tramway, uh, get a good view there. Uh, you can Monarch, you can hit Monarch crest trail. One of the most famous mountain biking trails in the state.
[00:38:27] Iconic. Yeah. Uh, no shortage of things to do in Salida. And for whatever reason, you know, people, people seem to either send it west and keep going toward places like tell your ride and, uh, and you're a, but, or, or they just stop in being a Vista, I would say. Um, I've always thought Salida is pretty well loved. I would say it's well loved to among like maybe Colorado Springs locals, I would say, but I would venture to say a lot of Denver rights might not be thinking Salida when they're
[00:38:57] playing in a mountain town getaway. Um, Princeton hot springs kind of closer to the Buena Vista side of the valley. Yeah. I think people tend to stop at Buena Vista and they don't go further south. Uh, but yeah, I mean, it does put you in range of, uh, Mount Princeton hot springs, puts you in range of St. Elmo's ghost town too. Right. Um, and there's a lot of really cool places to stay in Salida. Yeah. Like the last few times I've gone, it's just been like Airbnb situation and there were a lot of great options where, um, you know, you get a little, little space right downtown,
[00:39:26] right by the river. Um, yeah, that, that might be one of mine. I would say what's another one, Seth. Here's one marble marble. How about marble? That is a good one. It's getting out there, right? Uh, for people unfamiliar, you're getting kind of touristy. Aspen there in that general vicinity. And why is it named marble? For marble, of course, uh, you drive in and unmistakably you see remnants of the quarry
[00:39:54] up there that, uh, uh, generated marble used for some of our great national monuments. People forget about that. Is there like the little marble statue graveyard looking thing where it's just kind of like, yeah. There's like sculptures or something I'm recalling. Is that what you're thinking of? Yes. Yeah. Uh, and then there's man, I think some of the, maybe the, some of the best barbecue I've had is there in marble. Uh, if it's still open, you always want to double check these things, uh, because people just
[00:40:23] don't go to marble like they should. Slow groove and barbecue. Looks like it's still open. Love slow groove and barbecue. Right in the middle of the mountains too. Yeah. Like very beautiful scene in marble. Marble is beautiful and overlooked and in shot of the crystal mill. Yeah. Probably if people have been through marble, it's cause they're on their way to the crystal mill, which you gotta have the right vehicle for that. It's often called one of the most photo photogenic spots in Colorado. It's everyone has probably seen a photo of that.
[00:40:51] It's like the mill right by that, that little waterfall that's cascading down often accompanied by the golden aspens in the area too. Um, yeah, I would say the best way to maybe visit that one for someone that doesn't want to get in over their heads, they do Jeep tours up to that area. Yep. So that's a good option. Yeah. If people wondered, I mentioned national monuments. It's that marble, uh, it's that marble that is responsible for the Lincoln Memorial. Oh, no way. Yep. That's very cool. Yep. Yeah.
[00:41:20] Uh, so that's a cool one. Uh, you got one, another one of mine going back and forth here. Hmm. Yeah. Let me, let me think. I mean, how about Lake city? Yeah, that was, that was something I was just kind of thinking in my head too. It's often referred to as the most remote place in the lower 48. Right. Um, I don't know if that's statistically accurate, but, uh, it is one of those places where you
[00:41:45] do just kind of, you know, on your way from your, between Gunnison and Montrose. Yeah. Uh, you just turn left and you're just keep going, keep going into the middle of nowhere. And it does feel remote. Absolutely beautiful. You got a Lake San Cristobal there. Yeah. Um, is that the second biggest natural lake in the state? I believe so behind Grand Lake. Yeah. I want to say. And we were chatting about that on, um, some of the podcast stuff a while back, but how
[00:42:11] that lake is slowly disappearing because of the, uh, the Slumgolian earth flow. That's right. That's a natural history. Yeah. Not in our lifetimes, people don't worry. Yeah. 2,500 years I think was the, the USGS estimate that I saw. Uh, go back and listen to Spencer's. Cool though. Yeah. You can go listen to a ramble about that, but, uh, yeah, you've got the 14 or trailheads right there. The Alpine loop going to those trailheads. Yes. Alpine loop, which also connects to Silverton. Mm-hmm.
[00:42:38] So you can make a whole day out of it, you know, a whole day of, maybe two days. Overlooking mountain towns. Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, Lake City, man, the first time that I went to Lake City, it was to climb, uh, red cloud and sunshine to the 14 years from this alternate alternate route, a little bit more rugged than the standard route. Uh, I would, uh, out of all the alternate routes that I've tried to like seek out over the years, this one was one where it felt like, eh, like maybe you'll twist an ankle. It's not quite as like pounded as some of those other ones.
[00:43:06] Um, but either way, uh, I remember leaving Colorado Springs, you know, like 2 30 AM or something like that. And just driving all the way out there. Wow. I probably saw 400 deer and elk along the way, just along the sides of the roads, especially during some of that last stretch there into Lake City. Mm-hmm . And then just getting there and seeing the lakes and seeing eagles and the eagle nests on top of all these massive trees. It just felt like, you know, homeward bound in a sense. Like you're like- Colorado. Yeah.
[00:43:36] Yeah. It's just like, you know, in the middle of nature and, uh, just super cool. And you can, I think you can wreck like lakeside cabins there during the summer. Mm-hmm . Um, yeah, really just a lot to do. Like it feels like one of those places where it's like getting away for like summer camp. For sure. Or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Cool place. Yeah. Silverton was the one I was like, do I say Lake City or Silverton? Silverton's almost too well known. You can say both. You can say both. Silverton gets a lot of talk. Lake City doesn't get a lot of talk. Yeah.
[00:44:03] Um, you know, Silverton may be the best way to, to visit it even. They either come in on that million dollar highway or you take the train up from Durango and then maybe stay. Um, Silverton's a very sleepy town though. So if you are arriving, that's another one where like took that long drive from Colorado Springs to Silverton in one go and arrive at like, I don't know, 730 at night and everything was closed or like eight. Like it was, uh, for sure. It was pretty ridiculous.
[00:44:32] Silverton is great, but beautiful. Call it. I call it tell you ride light, you know, cause it's like undeveloped tell you ride, non resort tell you ride. People in Silverton would hate that. I use any sentence including tell you ride with Silverton, right? Cause Silverton is like anti tell you ride. Right. And that's what makes it really unique and cool and special. Yeah. And I got to wonder too, like, let's say pre COVID before remote work really started taking off.
[00:45:00] Um, at least at the level that it has, uh, I wonder what, what industries were people really doing in Silverton? Yeah. You know, like what were the, what were like the main jobs that people had? Yeah. Was it all tourism? I know there's probably a little bit of mining that's still taking place, but you got the, I mean, you do have the small ski area. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Tourism, tourism, tourism, tourism, totally tourism. Off-roading, you know? Yeah. Off-roading hub for sure. Yeah. There was a, I gotta give a shout out. I think it was, I think they're called rock pirates.
[00:45:29] They're one of the, uh, off-road rental places out there. That was maybe one of my favorite days in Colorado, uh, that I've had since I've been here was out in Silverton, uh, on some of the rental, um, razors, like Polaris razors and just going up to like animus forks that goes down there. And then just going up and up into the mountain valleys. And there's just so many great roads for the little four by fours that you can just kind of go around and explore just endlessly. It felt like. Yeah.
[00:45:56] And that was, that was one of the best days I've had in Colorado, I would say. So there are, there are ATV rentals there. Yeah. That's, that's worth it in itself. Just go there for, you know, weekend in the summer, rent some ATVs, go explore, take the Alpine lube, take it into Lake city. Mm hmm. Uh, but yeah, very, very cool experience for sure. I think we've talked about it before, but on the topic of Silverton, they're going to splash onto the mountain biking scene, I think in a really big way. Yes. Before too long. You've, you briefly went into it. You should.
[00:46:25] Baker's, Baker's park trail system. I think it's like something like 30 miles of single track. That's going to be, you know, you can ride right to it from town. That's going to be a big deal for Silverton. I think that can, you know? Yeah. I mean, you're going to see more people go to Silverton for that reason. Yeah. That's going to be a big deal. I'll be curious to see, I wonder like how much, I'd be curious to sit down with their chamber of commerce or someone and chat with them about like how many tourists can they even handle? You know?
[00:46:52] Because it's like, whenever I stayed there, man, I was in like four bedroom bed and breakfast type of thing. Like there's not that many rooms in Silverton. I always thought like, what, what's the best way to describe Silverton? The visitor center is in an avalanche zone. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, well, I don't want to say it's an eminent danger, but like, you know, a crazy avalanche could take out the visitor center.
[00:47:18] I've definitely written about avalanches that have blocked the, blocked Silverton off from everybody. Yeah. Like they essentially have two roads that hit the town, you know? And sometimes if you get two feet of snow on the million dollar highway with its 500 foot cliff drops, it's going to be pretty difficult to get in there and you got to have those plows come through and isolated town. What's the road on the other side? Is it, uh, it's not Red Mountain Pass. Is it Red Mountain Pass? Oh, that goes to your right? Um, no, no, no.
[00:47:47] The other, the other side that goes toward Durango. Yeah. I've never driven that. I haven't either. I've never been on that. Yeah. I've always come in through the million dollar, it's hard to not come in through the million dollar highway. Yeah. It's so beautiful. It's a great one. Love Paonia. If we're talking a underrated or overlooked mountain town, they always throw out Paonia. Yeah, it is funny. You do mention that one a lot. And every time we look into it, cause every time you mentioned it, I've never been there. Yeah. Uh, I always pull it up and I'm like, that does look like such a great place to go. Yeah.
[00:48:16] It's like, it's like Huckleberry Finn. I feel like I've used that adjective before. That's not even an adjective, but it is in this case, Huckleberry Finn. Yeah. It's nostalgic, man. I like the camping place. Um, or I, not, I like, I've heard there's good camping there is what I should say. Last I checked and people still, uh, people still trade in Paonia. There's a trading post, you know, I mean, to give you an idea of what kind of town this is. One of the last true, I think people in Paonia would be okay with me saying this. One of the last true hippie towns in Colorado.
[00:48:46] You know, when I was there, the elementary school was doing a, uh, a play called hippies versus rednecks. Hmm. And it went, I think that was what it was called. Yeah. And it was going back to this history of, you know, Paonia was a place, uh, call it settled by miners, right? Established by miners. Mm-hmm. And along came hippies who thought this was like the perfect place to, to live, to be. And so those two have converged over time and a little Paonia.
[00:49:16] I think I've got one more. I've got one more to add to the list. What you got? I've mentioned it a billion times, but Creed. Yeah. Creed is one of those spots where the first time I visited that I was blown away just by it's one of those spots where it really feels, I think the population's like 300 people and it really feels like the population's like 300 people, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, but there's like a whole mining museum there, which I think is blasted into a rock face where you can go, go check that out.
[00:49:43] Uh, San, San Luis peak, great trailhead for San Luis peak there. Yeah. Colorado trail goes through there. So it gets some traffic from that. Mm-hmm . Yeah. The theater, um, little slice of Broadway and little Creed, Colorado. Yeah. Cold. It was one of the, it's always ranked as one of the top places to see Broadway off Broadway, which is wild to me in Creed. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I wonder who's going to that, you know, like, cause you think it's people in the area that like traveled to Creed for the weekend to see a show or do you think it's people
[00:50:11] that are flying in from places around the country? Yeah. I need to check it out. Does the sign still say the last great place? The last, the last great place to drink and fight. That's right. That's the way the poem goes. That's right. And now they've just condensed it to the last great place. Yeah. No drinking, no fighting. Yep. No drinking or fighting. They've polished it up a little. There might be some drinking. Yeah. There might be some drinking in Creed. There is. There's one of the oldest bars in the state. Remember we were talking about that. Uh, in Creed? Yeah.
[00:50:42] It was, uh, huh. Let's see how quick. I don't think I knew that. All those bars in Colorado. Are you sure Creed? Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, all right. I've got the article pulled up. Bear with me people. The Creed hotel and restaurant. Okay. 1892. Okay. So maybe not a bar that people, I just wasn't thinking like in that. Yeah. Yeah. Hotel and restaurant. Um, yeah, that makes sense. So stuck around for a long time. It's open seasonally.
[00:51:11] So that's important to mention. Uh, it's the, by my count, it's the eighth oldest place to get a drink in Colorado. We'll say. So last one, Netherlands. Hmm. Netherlands. Oh yeah. Ned. Love Ned. Love Ned. I think they've still got the, the grave of the, uh, former mayor there who was a cat. Do they really? Do they really? Well, they, they no longer have the, uh, frozen dead guy. Right. Frozen dead guy has been relocated.
[00:51:40] I'll be curious to see. Do you know if it got approved? I think it did get approved with the city buying Eldora mountain, right? Yeah. So yeah. I'll be curious to see how that changes anything, uh, in years to come. Like, do you think it has more of a local feel not being owned by maybe a larger company and being owned by the, by the town? Or do you think it. Yeah. You're getting into that there. I think you're kind of, in my mind, my question is going to capital. Right. You know? Yeah.
[00:52:08] Is it, is a town like Ned Island going to be able to invest in a ski area like that to raise it to some kind of additional level? Right. Yeah. Or does it stay very much more like a local? Yeah. Yeah. That's a big question that we probably don't have time for on this show. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, the ski area is far enough away from the town to where. Yeah. If you're wondering like what, how that might look in town. I don't, you know, I don't see any change there. Yeah. Definitely.
[00:52:38] My focus is like the ski area, what it means to the ski area for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. A lot of good hiking in that area too. Um, very pretty. Yeah. That's a fun place. The, the carousel of happiness. You can be happy again on the carousel of happiness. There we go. I think that's the perfect way to end it right there. Works for me, man. Uh, yeah. Um, until next time I'm Spencer. I'm Seth. And we'll see, and we'll see you out there. Thank you, everyone. there. So I love your host,