In this episode of the OutThere Colorado Podcast, Spencer and Seth chat about a recent update on the number of wolves in Colorado (amid growing concerns), three children who went missing from a campsite, more bear conflicts to add to the list, an update on the Maroon Bells takeover, a lofty proposal that could forever change a Colorado creek, and more.
[00:00:05] Hey Spencer! Hey Seth! Not a lot, got a lot of news to cover. Recording on Thursday instead of Wednesday, Seth and I were very busy yesterday. Tim over there in the booth per usual on the sound and the video for today. We might seem like we're not that busy. We might seem like we just come on this podcast and waste our time, but that's not the case. We got other stuff to do.
[00:00:31] I think most people that I talk to about the show, they assume that we're spending like 100% of the time in the studio. It's like, no, it's like the reason the show is able to exist for the most part with the news stories is because Seth and I are covering these stories throughout the week. That is about the best compliment we could possibly get though. People thinking like we do this like full time or something. Yeah, it would be nice to just be in the studio all the time, just chilling in here, talking about things. Really? You don't mind just hanging out with me in here?
[00:01:00] Well, it does get hot with all these lights on. People don't realize that. The temperature rises about six degrees probably in this room every day. It starts out around 70 and ends up around like 78, which makes the flannels even more impressive. And people wonder why the left side of my face is more tan than the other. Right. Yeah, let's get into it though. We got some news for you this week. Oh, I did go back to the Brit. Had some of their Southeast Asian food, Indian food. The curry was very good.
[00:01:30] What is it? Hadn't had that there yet. So you gotta, gotta mention that was delicious on a cold day like this. That sounds great. Yeah. Yeah, it was good. Curry. Yeah, let's get into some news here. I like how you're like, I just want to, I just want to mention that I went back. I mean, I have to mention real quick, right? If I have good food, you know, gotta mention some great pub here downtown Colorado Springs. Cool place. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:01:55] So this report came out yesterday and a question that we get asked a lot is how many wolves are there in Colorado, right? Colorado Parks and Wildlife, they release a report annually or at least they have released a report annually. Now it's going to be twice a year. They're going to do a mid-year report on how many wolves they are aware of in the state of Colorado. So, so clearly they get the question a lot too. Yes. So I would imagine. And, and I mean, this year has been a year where, you know, a lot of wolves have died.
[00:02:25] Sometimes at the hands of a lethal removal process due to depredation. So right now Colorado Parks and Wildlife is aware of 45 gray wolves in Colorado as of September 24th. That includes four reproducing packs and then a fifth pack that is just siblings that are traveling together. I believe they were orphaned. I think, I forget how the, how the two, two parental wolves there died,
[00:02:51] but I think the male wolf, I want to say died in the capture operation that didn't go correctly. And the, the mother wolf, I think she might've been shot or something like that or hit by a car. I don't know. Don't quote me on that, but either way this fifth pack is just siblings. And then there are also several wolves that are currently not in packs, but could pair up this winter. Winter, obviously a very tough season for wildlife, including wolves.
[00:03:21] So essentially the punchline here is that with 45 gray wolves alive in Colorado right now, come next spring, there's a decent chance that the population won't be growing. And that's if, if death rates are a little bit higher than, than what they've shown to be. But yeah, among pups specifically, because it is worth noting 20 of these wolves are wolf pups.
[00:03:46] And the typical survival rate for a wolf pup, I believe it's like 50 to 60% throughout the year. Colorado has had a notably high survival rate for its pups thus far at about 82%. But who knows what this winter could bring, especially with those siblings that are on their own. Right. I believe their yearlings are instead of just like recently born pups, but,
[00:04:13] but yeah, so it could be a, could be interesting because we are, you know, inherently probably going to lose some wolves over the winter. And last year, last spring, whenever that annual number was published, it was 32 wolves. So if we lose 13, we're back at that 32 number, obviously the goal of the reintroduction program,
[00:04:37] as controversial as it, as it can be sometimes is to, is to increase the number of wolves in Colorado to a certain extent. So if, if that flatlines and there isn't growth, that won't, you know, this year isn't really going to result in that. So, um, as a result though, Colorado parks and wildlife is changing up some of their, their approach. Right. Notably here. Yeah.
[00:05:00] Yeah. They've, uh, they've essentially said that they're temporarily pausing, uh, their, uh, chronic depredation directive, which, uh, is basically what instructs them to remove these wolves after a certain depredation threshold is hit. So, uh, moving forward, it will be approached at, on a case by case basis, um, at least for the time being with a very conservative approach to removing wolves.
[00:05:25] So what that means to be determined, but essentially, uh, they are expanding the limits for why they would kill a wolf or not that are predating livestock. Uh, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Like it, it'll be, the fewer wolves will be killed essentially. Like that won't be, uh, the first option, which I mean, a lot of people. Because of those concerns of the population. Yes. Because a lot of. They want to see more population.
[00:05:52] Exactly. And I mean, um, I think I want to say there were three different wolves that were lethally removed in recent weeks. Right. Um, from due to depredation. Seems like we hear about it quite often. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, um, you know, it might seem like three wolves, like that's not a huge number. It's not dozens or, you know, but when you're. Population is small already. Exactly. And, uh, you're looking at, okay, what wolves are being removed? Yep.
[00:06:16] Um, if they are some of those, uh, the older wolves that are maybe responsible for taking care of other wolves in the group, you know, maybe it's, uh, maybe it could be detrimental to the population. I think a lot of people too, uh, that are listening are probably like, okay, so like what's the other option, right? Like what more non-lethal, uh, non-lethal options that are, you know, I mean, it seems like those are already being implemented at a pretty high level. Um, and it seems like, wow.
[00:06:45] Uh, they can work in some cases, the depredations are continuing. Like it's not a, it's not something where these, uh, less lethal options have been foolproof by any means. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And if people have been listening to our wolf updates long enough, they've known that we've kind of just presented the latest updates and we don't really delve into the politics of the situation.
[00:07:07] Uh, I wouldn't want people to think we don't recognize the politics of the situation when we hear news like this, that CPW is going to stray away from removing wolves for livestock depredation. We definitely recognize what that means for the ranching community, how folks in the ranching community probably feel about that, worried about their livestock.
[00:07:29] Uh, we can also recognize the other side of this advocates who say removing wolves is not solving livestock depredation, right? Advocates who think the way that that stops is to get more wolves, right? Two sides of the coin here that we definitely recognize. This is just the latest update. Yeah. And I mean, once this press release came out yesterday, uh, within minutes, I had an email from both sides of that debate with organizations representing both sides. And it was like, here's our press release on it. And it was like, here's this opinion.
[00:07:59] Here's this opinion. Yep. Um, so we hear it. Yeah, we know it. Um, obviously, I mean, the complicated situation, the vote for reintroduction was about as narrow as it gets when it was passed. And, um, the reintroduction, obviously it started back in December, 2023. Uh, something else to kind of follow in terms of, um, you know, the, I guess the welfare of, of Colorado's wolves too, is that a situation is being monitored where two Northwestern packs have been seen.
[00:08:27] Um, losing their hair. Hmm. So, uh, Colorado Parks and Wildlife believes that it may be a potential infectious skin parasite. Um, they have not provided a final diagnosis, uh, that's been confirmed of what could be causing these wolves to lose their hair. Uh, but that could also be a factor that impacts wolf survival. Yep.
[00:08:46] So, um, especially with winter right here, you know, I mean, obviously, uh, wolves for a coat is its only line of defense really when it comes to, uh, protecting itself from, uh, exposure to the cold. So, um, another factor at play that might have Colorado Parks and Wildlife looking at these numbers, looking at, um, what the survival rate of Colorado's wolves has been. And, uh, and thinking, okay, maybe this is a downward trend.
[00:09:13] Um, in, in the, uh, Western U.S., uh, unharvested wolf populations are not like those in, in Wyoming where there are places where wolf hunts take place. Uh, but unharvested wolf populations have a survival rate annually of about 75%. In Colorado, it's only 61%. Yeah. So, uh, it is a lot of questions about the state of the wolves, you know, uh, the best thing for the wolves, the bad thing for the wolves.
[00:09:42] All those questions abound as this reintroduction continues. Yep. A lot of questions, but one question has been answered. There are 45 wolves. Yeah. 45 wolves. Yep. Uh, in Colorado, we'll hear those numbers at least going forward. At least, at least that they know of. So there's always a chance that some, some other wolves are floating around, but yeah, 45 wolves. So that's, uh, you know, and honestly, I'm pretty happy that they're releasing that report because that's one of those things where it's like, I wait all year to see the update.
[00:10:11] And now it's, it is nice to kind of get that, that next update. I wish they would do a monthly, to be honest, if they're, if they're listening to a monthly. Um, yeah, so there's your, uh, there's your wolf update. More wildlife in Colorado. Another, another pretty notable update. They're two notable updates, I guess. Uh, so, um, a bear was shot by a resident in Steamboat Springs. Bear, uh, reportedly was inside the home. The resident tried to scare this bear off, haze it away.
[00:10:41] Uh, did not work. The bear started to charge. And, uh, that resident, uh, shot that bear with a firearm. Uh, and this is, this is, uh, reporting from our friend Trevor over at a Steamboat Pilot. And today, uh, Colorado Parks and Wildlife officers arrived at the scene. Uh, they ended up euthanizing the, uh, injured bear. The bear was still, uh, it sounds like the bear was still on the property, maybe in the property. And, um, they were able to find that easily and euthanize it.
[00:11:08] So, so another reminder there to really just, you know, keep your, keep your doors secure, uh, to your home, your windows secure to your home. Uh, also though, in terms of home security, uh, there's another situation that's been unfolding. I haven't seen an update on it quite yet. Uh, but this came out a few days ago. The same bear is believed to have broken into at least 20 garages in the Denver metro area, specifically the King Carl, uh, area and neighborhood there.
[00:11:35] And, uh, some of the photos from the scene, um, there, they were published on a CBS news report where they were chatting with some of the people that have been directly impacted by this with a bear, bear breaking into the garage. Uh, the bear just takes out the door. Like it's not even a matter of whether the door is locked or unlocked. The bear is literally clawing through a garage door. So an important reminder for people, um, like myself, like I've done it in the past where, uh, if the bears are out, you know, like I'll put the trash can in the garage.
[00:12:05] Um, I, you know, that's really probably just a risk to property damage at that point. If a bear, uh, is, uh, hungry enough and smells that trash in the garage. So crazy. Um, yeah. Keeping the trash outside of the garage, but with an adequate, uh, adequate bear resistant lock of some sort is, is probably the better bet there. If you want to avoid some property damage or potential for that. Do you see the bear, uh, chowing down at the Aspen farmer's stand there? I did. Yeah. Good. Oh man. It's wild dude.
[00:12:33] I saw, uh, I think it was, I want to say it was another CBS news report, but a bear in Aspen dude's just sitting there reading his book and a bear comes up and sniffs him like broad daylight. I think so. Can I eat that book? Yeah. Is that book edible? The quote was like, um, if I remember correctly, it was something along the lines of like from the guy who got sniffed by the bear. Uh, it was, it all happened so fast. I didn't, I didn't really know what to do. So I just sat still and looked at my book and let it move on. Crazy. I saw we got a fat bear winner too, right?
[00:13:03] Uh, yes. Fat bear week contest. Just came by that. Didn't get the specifics on that, but it looked like a very fat bear. Let's see. Otis reclaimed his crown. Oh, Otis again. Yeah. Otis has won before. So he's looking large and in charge. Yeah. Good for Otis. Let's see what they had to write about Otis this year. Oh, it's not a, I think Otis reclaimed his crown. That's, that's what it looks like. Um, we can either way, the bear I saw looked very fat and happy. Oh yes, it was. I'm glad to see that it was Otis.
[00:13:33] Congrats Otis from us over here and out there. I wish we got a weight for these bears. Like I want to see how big they are. Can they not put that out? I don't know. They're probably different. I've always just kind of seen the pictures over the years and, and it's made me happy to see bears very fat. It is true. That guy is a unit man. Yeah. Huge. Yeah. Huge tank. Um, yeah. So there's some bear updates for you though. Keep your, uh, don't, don't crack your windows.
[00:14:01] Uh, keep attractants, including bird seed and dog food, you know, like keep that in a scent proof container. If it is in the garage, probably even better to keep it in the house. Um, yeah, I haven't, you know, it's, it has been about a week since I've seen a bear. So, which is a funny thing to say. And for any of my Indiana friends listening that are, uh, you see a bear every week, man. Every day. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, I bet once the end of the month kind of approaches, I bet it'll ramp back up a little
[00:14:31] bit, but yeah. On the final push to hibernation. A lot of bears, a lot of bears. A lot of bears. Um, let's get into, uh, a couple of these news stories from you real quick here too. Um, so you have an update on the maroon bells. Yeah. Update on the maroon bells. We've been talking about the, uh, maroon bells, the county picking County moving forward on the special use permit through the forest service to take up the operations of that
[00:14:58] very scenic place in Colorado that we all know and love. And we've talked about the reasons for this, the stated reasons for this, right? The forest service just operating in the red there, you know, um, those fees that they've charged being largely the same since 1997, the long process entailed to raise those fees, just, um, not really conducive to getting the money right, if you will, um, and making a sensible enterprise there. Forest service has been operating at a loss.
[00:15:28] They've turned to picking County to take over the day to day there in those high visitation months. And like I said, County's moving forward on that proposal for a service as we speak has opened up a short, uh, public comment period that runs through, I think October 9th, that Friday. Do I got that right? Spencer is Friday, October 9th, October 9th. Yep. Um, and the reason for this is there have been some more slags raised, if you will, about
[00:15:55] this process, uh, or the lack there of this in this process, um, specifically groups like the center for Western priorities and wilderness workshop, um, taking some aim at the process here and more so asking the question, what kind of precedent is this setting for public glance? If a place as beloved and as famous as Maroon Bells can essentially be handed off to another
[00:16:24] operator, what does that mean for other places? What does that mean for places, um, and, uh, entities not as well equipped as Picken County, right? So these groups recognize Picken County is in a good financial place, uh, well resourced, well equipped to take up the kind of operations that are seen as needed at Maroon Bells. But more so this group is asking, what about other places that could fall into hands, not as well equipped when the forest service is in trouble?
[00:16:53] Um, what about private operators, uh, stepping up and take, we've talked about these things before and they, they, um, specifically point to in this case, um, this, the way the forest service is intending to authorize the special use permit is through a legal term and process called a categorical exclusion, which, uh, does not require a lengthy environmental review, does not require a lengthy public scoping review.
[00:17:23] In other words, um, these advocate groups are seeing this fast tracking way of, uh, handing over and their words, public plans, right? Yeah, man. So that's kind of the issue that they see here. Um, that's what seemingly prompted this public comment period. So the conversation over this topic that we've been talking about is ongoing. Yeah. That's interesting.
[00:17:50] Again, you know, big ideas being brought up and ideas about the future of our public lands, the state of our federal land managers, right? That's all kind of baked into what's, what's going on here at, at Maroon Bells. Yeah. So maybe a little bit of a little bit more debate going to be taking place. And just some scrutiny, you know, I mean, you know, there's, there's, there's, um, we've, again, we've talked about this, you know, hanging, like turning to local governments and concessionaires, uh, quandary turning to local governments.
[00:18:21] Um, um, Mount Blue Sky this year turned to Denver Mountain Parks running things there in the place of the Forest Service. Um, there's, there's campgrounds all around the state that are, that are being run by private concessionaires that people may or may not be aware of. And people who are aware of kind of have some concerns about that, you know, again, kind of that precedent question.
[00:18:43] Um, um, right now the Forest Service is in the process of, um, uh, Colorado Parks and Wildlife having operations at Sweetwater Lake, right? And that has been a very contentious process that is ongoing, that is getting a lot of scrutiny and scrutiny that some people see as, uh, merited, right? And so just people want to, I think people want to talk, hear more talk about how our
[00:19:11] public land should be managed and what are we okay with and what are we not okay with? Right. And some people see something as famous as the Maroon Bells as kind of a, um, a catalyst for a bigger conversation around that. Yeah. I mean, just like in, in the greater Maroon Bells conversation, you heard people pointing to Hanging Lake and it's like, obviously that's a pretty iconic spot. And I mean, Maroon Bells definitely, you know, could become that, that precedent for some
[00:19:41] of these other major attractions around the country. Right. Um, yeah. Yeah. And there's talk about business with all this, right? I mean, that's kind of at the heart of the concern about private concessionaires getting into the equation in some of these places. Right. So in the case of Maroon Bells, we previously talked about, um, Picken County seeing the need to what's, what's the problem for a service has been operating the red Picken County says we need to raise some fees, right. Mm-hmm. To, to sustainably manage this place. Yeah.
[00:20:10] And when conversations like that happen, inevitably people, um, people raise the question of why do our, why do our public lands have to be treated like, like businesses? You know, is that just, is that just the reality we live in for some of these super popular places like Maroon Bells? Mm-hmm. Are we okay with that? Right. So it kind of leads to some of those conversations too. Yeah. And I mean, I think, you know, any, any spot you're visiting is treated like a business in
[00:20:37] a sense, whether it's a public park, a national park, regardless, like there always has to be some awareness of how much money is being spent and how you're spending money. Otherwise it, you know, you're either not taking care of the needs of people or you're, you know, overspending and wasting money. So, I mean, um, yeah. Yep. Yeah. I mean, no one, no one likes to pay for things in general, but, uh, no one likes to see things get more expensive. Yeah.
[00:21:03] Um, and at the heart of that is, is this worry of public lands being exclusive, of public lands not being as accessible to all people, uh, from all walks of life. Right. That's a very real concern. Yeah. That's part of sure. Yeah. For sure. Yep. Um, yeah. I mean, it's good. The conversation's taking place. Yeah. And we are, we've, we've been, we've been plugged in, man. You and I have been talking about that for a while now. Hopefully, uh, other people are maybe thinking about some of the questions that we're asking.
[00:21:33] I think, uh, you mentioning it, how it, it could serve as a precedent, how it could be an example for other spots and how it is really, you know, like the, how it's culminated from this trend that has been taking place in recent years. You know, it really does show the importance of the discussion around what's happening with the maroon bells and, um, regardless of how somebody feels about it.
[00:21:59] I think, uh, it's one of those many sided coins, so to speak, where there's a lot of opinions that, uh, uh, probably need to probably need to be, uh, addressed. I don't think anyone who argue that that place deserves to be cared for, but, uh, there's others that would, that would ask the question, how, you know, how, how should we care for that? Yeah. Um, cool. So, uh, you have another update about lost Canyon and another spot we've, we've chatted
[00:22:25] about here and there, uh, but, uh, as, as we've, as you've described it in the past, kind of a hidden gem between, uh, between Colorado Springs and Denver and the Castle Rock area on the east side of I-25. So yeah. Yeah. What's the update there? Did it move to the west side? Lost Canyon is still there, man. At the southeast edge of Castle Rock. It's like 10 minutes off I-25, man. But you'd never think it because you get back to this place that is totally wild, you
[00:22:53] know, from this creek fed, uh, verdant floor to tall forest to taller hoodoos and rock out crops to cap rock with really panoramic views and this grassy mesa top. Um, that's just spectacular, beautiful place. And maybe that's why I keep updating on Lost Canyon Ranch open space, which opened this summer, um, as Castle Rock's representing Castle Rock's largest ever open space acquisition going back a couple of years. And they've made good progress.
[00:23:23] Uh, and the latest being, um, the last, uh, fairly long loop that has been planned in that trail system. So a total of 15 miles of trail, um, in their entirety, the system in its entirety has been finished. That's the latest word from Castle Rock. So that place can be fully experienced as it is now. And, um, yeah, maybe I keep talking about it because I keep thinking people should check it out. This is a really unique place, similar, um, to, um, Castlewood Canyon State Park.
[00:23:52] If people are familiar with that. And there's even a trail that connects the two landscapes there, um, enticingly called the echoes of ancestors. Right. Um, but again, yeah, just the proximity to downtown Castle Rock to be in a wild place. And for Castle Rock, the significance of this place can't be overstated. I mean, there's just nothing like it in Castle Rock. You know, we're familiar with some of the parks and open spaces there, but there's just nothing as wild and rugged pretty much right in Castle Rock, like this place.
[00:24:22] You would never think it's there in Castle Rock. Yeah. I mean, and it's pretty cool. It really, uh, plays a pretty big role in helping them just continue to buck this trend of being like a bedroom community for people in Denver, uh, you know, where it's like, okay, like work in Denver, live in Castle Rock. It seems like that community, like a decade ago, um, that was how most people looked at Castle Rock in a, in a, in a lot of ways, or it's like just the place you pass through between Colorado Springs and Denver. Maybe you should, you stop at the outlet malls or something like that.
[00:24:51] Uh, but I would imagine that most people that don't live in Castle Rock or in that general area, uh, kind of overlook it when it comes to that outdoor recreation that exists. I think totally right, man. Spot on. Yeah. Yeah. They like to describe this as like, um, bringing the mountains to town, you know? And if you live anywhere in Colorado, you want to say that you can access the mountains, you know, and this is kind of their answer to that big asterisk that has to be said about this place. We've said it before it's hiking only. Mm-hmm.
[00:25:21] So in line with this conservation easement they have, they, they really envision, um, this place that prioritizes, um, conservation as they see it and, um, wilderness experience as they see it. So no bikes, got to leave your dog at home. Yep. No dogs. So I think. No hiking on four paws. Right. I, I, I think that that's going to limit the visitation over there in my mind. I could be wrong on that.
[00:25:50] Um, but that's all to say, I think, I think for as much as we talk about on this show, my prediction, which could be way wrong, um, is that it's not going to be an overrun kind of place, you know? So yeah, if, if, uh, for, for mountain biking, Philip S. Miller is great on the other side of the interstate Ridgeway open space is another option there, but for like wilderness type hiking, Las Canyon is, is waiting. Very cool. Yeah.
[00:26:19] Very cool indeed. Um, so real quick before we get into this, this last topic that I, I do want to chat about cause I'm, I'm very excited to chat about it. Uh, first I want to talk about a, uh, so this is a pretty scary situation that unfolded at the campsite near Buena Vista, but it does have a happy ending. There we go. Um, so on the East side of Buena Vista out there by the Midland bike trail, uh, three kids went missing from a campsite, a nine-year-old and two six-year-olds.
[00:26:48] Uh, this happened on September 26th. Uh, essentially this family member, a large group of family from Denver, as they were described, notice these kids were just gone from the campsite at about like 9 AM. And I mean, if you, if you're thinking about where Buena Vista is and like the layout there, you know, you've got the Arkansas river that splits that side of the town from the more of the downtown area. Um, obviously it's rugged terrain. Obviously a lot of wildlife is going to be by that river, including things like mountain lions, bears, et cetera.
[00:27:18] Um, so these kids go missing, uh, around 9 AM. The family makes the decision to call for help around 11 AM. So two hours after they noticed the kids were gone and spent some time looking for these kids, uh, they, they call into the sheriff's office who responds. And, uh, send several deputies out there. They have foot patrol teams. They have, uh, drones in the air. They have a helicopter above looking for these children that just disappeared. Scary. Very scary situation, especially with the river. That's all I'm thinking about.
[00:27:47] Yeah, they get in the river. Um, and that's, that's a very dangerous situation, obviously. And again, like nine years old, six years old and six years old. So, uh, pretty young kids. Um, another person or another, another deputy will say was also there and it was a canine unit named Archie also, also goes by Arch. Um, Archie ended up playing a very crucial role in the successful outcome of this mission.
[00:28:14] Um, essentially once Arch got to the campsite, he, uh, almost immediately, uh, in quotes, almost immediately, uh, started leading searching search personnel into this wilderness terrain, uh, through this pretty rugged landscape. Uh, he was clearly on a mission as described by the sheriff's office. Um, Arch, Archie was able to follow the children's direction of travel.
[00:28:38] Uh, he helped them narrow the search down to this, uh, very specific area. And then some of these foot teams got around on a higher point in that same general area and were able to locate those kids. Awesome. Yeah. So this was about 2 PM. So by that point, those kids have been missing for about five hours. Wow. Um, which is significant when you're talking about the rugged terrain and the moving water and just what could happen. Right. Um, but the kids were found in good health, reunited with their family.
[00:29:08] Uh, no one was injured in this mission. Uh, they were found 1.5 miles away from their campsite. And apparently he had, yeah, so pretty far. I mean, if you look at what's in a 1.5 mile radius around that area, kind of terrain, they could have been a lot of cliffs, a lot of like rock fall risk could have been bad. Um, but yeah, they're found 1.5 miles away and, uh, had reportedly wandered off after getting lost. So man, I love dogs. Yeah. Right.
[00:29:36] And I bet everyone loves a dog story. Yeah. I'm glad you shared that one. Yeah. So shout out to Archie. Um, shout out to the Chaffey's County, uh, Chaffey County, uh, Sheriff's office for that one. Lots of treats for Archie. Extra treats for Archie. Yeah. As, um, as, uh, the Chaffey County Sheriff, uh, Andy Rorich, I believe I'm pronouncing his name correctly, described it. Um, he says, uh, he would with Archie on their team and this is roughly what he said, but with
[00:30:05] Archie on, on their team as a tool, uh, he would match this team against any other in this state. And I'm very proud of them all. Presumably, especially Archie. Um, but yeah, Archie, uh, they, they published a photo of Archie too, which we'll make sure we throw in the video, but, uh, yeah, he, the dog was just, yeah, the capture him was just, uh, Archie exhausted after a long and he's just sitting there with his like tongue out looking happy. He did his job. Dog of the day, man. Yeah. Dog of the day.
[00:30:32] 14 of 10 dog, uh, for those familiar with the, uh, the, we rate dogs Instagram page. Um, so let's get into this topic that I'm very excited about because I mean, both of us have been in Colorado Springs for more than a decade. And one thing that Colorado Springs kind of lacks in, in certain ways is, uh, is water recreation. And as you were saying before the show, big dreams are fun to talk about.
[00:30:58] And a topic that has been a big dream for the Colorado Springs area for quite some time is trying to add more recreation to the, the Creek that cuts through downtown. Um, big dream. Uh, you look at the photos of it. It looks, or the renderings of what this could become, uh, it looks almost irrecognizable compared to what it is now. And I mean, they have done a lot along this Creek throughout the years, but essentially
[00:31:25] you're talking about a plan to add beaches and tubing and like fishing areas and just really turning this Creek that goes through the entire city into this like major outdoor recreation hub. Personally, I think floating in a tube would be amazing if you, if you were able to do that. Floating in a tube right beside downtown Colorado Springs. Yeah. And, uh, any local who hears this, I would imagine is like, yeah, that would be cool.
[00:31:51] But, but so how tell us about this and tell us about some of that, the, the, but of, of this plan and like how this has been in talks for just like over a decade, it feels like already. And, um, yeah. Like what does it look like? How, how would this happen? Where things stand? Yeah. To your point, man. Like, yeah, people who live in Colorado Springs would probably, most of us would probably
[00:32:14] struggle or refuse even to imagine floating in a tube or bringing our kids down to the Creek through Colorado Springs, through downtown Colorado Springs. But there has been a long going effort afoot asking people to imagine asking them to simply just think about the possibilities and see how things play out from there.
[00:32:38] So the, where, how things stand now, um, in recent years, um, leadership has, there's this 20 year working agreement in place right now with Colorado Springs utilities, a big player. And with the local city government, obviously another big player. Uh, these big dreams involve also the army Corps of engineers and federal bureaucracy, even above that.
[00:33:04] So I think we have to start there by saying there is a lot of complicated factors at play right now. Um, but things are in play right now. Things are somewhat moving right in this federal process. So right now, um, the city is looking to embark on this feasibility study that would build on what is currently this vision plan, the 70 page document that outlines what could be, you know,
[00:33:35] for this, for the waterway through Colorado Springs, fountain and monument creeks that run through Colorado Springs, North to South. Right. Um, this vision plan outlines eight new or revamped parks along these Creek banks. Um, a lot of people see some potential in America, the beautiful park right by downtown. If people are familiar with Colorado Springs here as maybe like a catalyst for sparking some broader movement.
[00:34:04] Could America, the beautiful park be home to like a beach scene of sorts where yeah, people could wait in the Creek a little bit, could drop a tube in the Creek a little bit. Maybe there's some drop structures there for a little extra splash. Uh, a terrorist plaza for festivities and really like celebrating the confluence of fountain and monument Creek from there going a little South could similar infrastructure be in place at
[00:34:30] the old Drake power plant that people have seen driving by I-25, those towers, that old power plant now decommission. Could that be this water sports activity place, right? More North, you know, going toward monument Valley. Right. So these are some of the big ideas, some of the big visions. And these, these river front, uh, revamps have been really hot in Colorado lately. Totally. Like you look at all the little like surfing areas and that have been built where you can
[00:34:59] river surf and yeah, I mean a lot of communities around the state are embracing that. There's probably an obvious, maybe not so obvious, but at least a model of sorts in Denver, the first biggest city above Colorado Springs, Confluence Park, right? People know Confluence Park. Um, you know, you might even, you might see people fishing there. You'll see people, uh, even in kayaks there. Um, I know what the reaction to that is. People are going to say that's a river. That's, that's the South Platte, right?
[00:35:26] Um, this plan recognizes that this plan recognizes, like we are talking about creeks here, smaller bodies of water, but nonetheless, uh, smaller waterways that have been historically altered to the States that they are in now, right? This plan kind of outlines this long history of railroads and highways and further development that really kind of straightened and narrowed essentially these waterways.
[00:35:56] And the plan asks, is there a way that this infrastructure could be revised to open up these waterways, to return them to their natural kind of flowing states that maybe, maybe would bring them back to life in terms of water and would green up the habitats. You know, that's the question. And the answers would be found in this feasibility study that's in the works that there's hope
[00:36:25] that maybe this feasibility study could get done, uh, next year. And depending on how that looks, that would kind of open the door to get, uh, federal government involved in federal money, which is going to be essential to any of this stuff happening. Right. So, um, that's where things are right now. And again, we're talking about like this 20 year working agreement.
[00:36:49] So that should speak for itself in terms of the process that could be at play here for a long time, but pretty exciting, man. I mean, like you said, like there's all sorts of communities that have asked the question, like how could we kind of activate our waterways in Denver with Confluence Park and Golden with, with the Creek through there, right? With Clear Creek that runs through Golden, um, Pueblos Riverwalk, right? Fort Collins, what they've done with the Pooder. I'm Steve Boat Springs.
[00:37:18] And it's like, uh, how they, how you can use a shuttle for their tubing. For tubing? Right. That's so cool. Yeah. Um, so, you know, I mean, you mentioned Salida. Yeah. Yeah. Salida. All over, man. Um, and you know, this plan doesn't exactly point to any of this, any of these examples of saying, this is what we could do. It's simply asking, what could we do? Yeah. You know, what could you, these are communities that decided we want to activate and honor
[00:37:43] our waterways and in Colorado Springs, you know, how could we do that? So interesting question. I'm looking, yeah. Looking through this report right now and just seeing the images of what we could do. Right. Yeah. Uh, what, what it could become, um, looking at page 11 for anyone else who has this report open, but, uh, looking at how like they're showing like the Creek it's, it's straight. There's a walking path on each side, which is about how it exists right now.
[00:38:11] And they have done a lot in recent years to, uh, to make it more walkable, um, make it feel a little bit nicer down there. Uh, but then looking at how they essentially would rebuild, um, and reestablish this flood plane and create like the Creek winding through here with like all the lush, lush uh, uh, flora along the side there and walking paths and then maybe have like more recreation on the side. Like, yeah, I mean it could, if they pull it off, it would be sweet. It'd be transformational for Colorado Springs.
[00:38:40] No doubt. I mean, and we've alluded to money. Yeah. That is one obvious massive question here. Right. And it's going to take more than local will, right. It's going to take federal will. Right. My understanding is going to take Congress to approve funding for some of this, um, that being after a feasibility study, you know, again, that's kind of the process. Now we've seen what, what, um, the vision is the feasibility study would be applying like
[00:39:08] engineering and science to determine what is actually possible. Right. Um, so that's a big question. Another elephant in the room, water. Right. I guess this goes hand in hand with this feasibility study. In my mind, presumably that's going to take into account what's the water situation. Yeah. You know, what does drought mean for some of these concepts? Right. But again, I mean, you can point to so many communities that, that would tell you, you
[00:39:37] know, they've got water flowing. Yeah. You can make it worse. So I think, I think the other thing too, that, uh, people listening to us from Colorado Springs would probably get mad at us if we don't mention it would be the safety aspect. For sure. Um, yeah, there, I mean, they've done a lot in, in recent years to really, um, you know, make this, this part of the city nicer, but there are still some stretches along, along that where maybe known as being a little bit less state, less safe, maybe like, um, not
[00:40:06] as, um, well-maintained. Lots of trashed and illegal camping. Yes. I say illegal. I'm not entirely sure if that's in the books as illegal, but people have camped along the creeks. Yeah. I think it's illegal to camp in Colorado Springs, like in the city limits. Unless I, or something like that. But yeah, I'm pretty sure. Um, cause they will, they do clear out some of the camping sometimes. Right. Um, there, there's a lot of people who say they would not dip a toe in some, in, in some of these waterways. Right.
[00:40:34] And again, going to that, that first point we made, there's a lot of people saying they couldn't possibly imagine this effort is just asking people to imagine. So yeah. Yeah. It'll be fun to follow, but we're going to be following for a long time. Have you heard, uh, you might've mentioned it. I missed it, but have you heard a, uh, any sort of ballpark on like what a cost could be to do? Yeah. My understanding is like, there was like some initial estimates for just some of these concepts. I'm not entirely clear on the full scope of what they're looking at, but like a number
[00:41:01] that got thrown out was like 1.2 billion with a B as in play. So to just give an idea of just the kind of money that we're talking about and the kind of will that it's going to take big lift, big, big lift. For sure. I mean, as the city continues to grow, this definitely feels like something that could take it into that next era, um, of, of being or feeling more like a modern city with that downtown water recreation and everything.
[00:41:32] Um, yeah, I mean, who knows? I'm not a, I'm not a money expert, so I don't know. I can't, I can't talk on that, but nor are we engineers. Yeah. The photos look sweet. Yeah. Totally. Beaches in Colorado Springs. I mean, it's, uh, it's interesting for sure. Yeah. A story we will follow. For sure. Um, yeah, I think that's about all we got to, uh, talk about on the show for today. So, uh, you got anything else? I'm good, man. All right. Cool.
[00:42:00] Um, we will be, so we'll be putting this episode out today. Uh, earlier this week though, uh, I did have a chance to, um, to talk with somebody who knows a ton about pine beetles. Um, he, uh, founded and is the, uh, founder and director, founder and president of, uh, the, uh, mountain pine beetle foundation. Cool. So that, that interview will be published here over the weekend.
[00:42:25] Um, I had a fascinating talk to him, uh, essentially the nonprofit that he is in charge of, uh, they try to, um, essentially prevent pine beetles from spreading in Colorado, often in residential areas. So, uh, something that, um, anyone living in Colorado or anyone who's seen the, the dead trees on the hillside, uh, would be interested in hearing about, he got, he got into like some of the signs of pine beetle infection or infestation.
[00:42:53] And, uh, I was like, oh dang, I know exactly what that is. Like I've seen that before. So, uh, if you've made it this far in the episode, definitely be on the lookout for that interview episode. Cool. I'm glad you did that. And, uh, yeah, it's a valuable conversation, I think, in terms of, uh, protecting our trees in Colorado. So without further ado, uh, I'm Spencer. I'm Seth. And we'll see you out there.