Historic blizzard that killed seven; Pizza capital of Colorado?; Man kicks bear; Equity in the outdoor space; & More

[00:00:05] Welcome to another episode of the OutThere Colorado Podcast. Once again, I'm Spencer here with Seth. Hey Spencer. And we've got Tim over there in the audio and video booth for the day. Yeah, how was your weekend? Let's dive right into it. The Bears won on Thursday. Laid low, had some work to do, some professional going on to do, but otherwise mostly laid low. Didn't have to stress about my Chicago Bears because they got the win out of the way on Thursday. Absolutely thrilling victory. Yes.

[00:00:34] That we have not talked about yet. We could spend this whole hour talking about it if we wanted to. Yeah, that was awesome. I'm still riding that high until Monday night against the Seahawks. But yeah, did a little trip out of town that we'll talk about a little later. But yeah, laid low. Pretty...a pretty, yeah. Always, it was good. Always good. Yeah. Yeah I did pop over and watch the uh.. The Broncos game at Red Leg with some friends. Huh!

[00:01:05] Huh! I never thought about going over there to watch the game, right? Yeah, well...we just happened to be there kind of. And it was, it was good. Yeah. It was on? Yeah. Nice, dreary Sunday, so to speak. Yeah, it was. Wasn't too crowded there, probably because of all the rain and the cold and the fog. So, yeah, it was really nice. It was pretty exciting to see Bo Nix get that, whatever, 62-yard touchdown run. Broke that off. I'm hoping that gives him a little bit of confidence, you know, because I think that's what he needs.

[00:01:33] He just, at this point, he needs to stop throwing it five yards every time and start throwing it more like 10 or 15. Or running at 62. Or running at 62, yeah. So that was an exciting game for sure. Did a little bit of Topgolf action. Oh. Saturday night for a friend's birthday. But that was cold too. Yeah. Yeah. Almost choked to death last night. Whoa. Literally a very scary moment. Whoa. It was late at night, and girlfriend wanted Taco Bell.

[00:02:03] So I was like, oh, I have a free taco coupon from there. So I was like, I'll take a taco, a taco, bean burrito. Save $2.50. Some other things. What's the taco going for? $3.50? Oh, yeah, I don't know. Everything's more expensive. But yeah, I took a bite of this taco. Apparently too big, but big enough to not get all the way down in my throat. Yikes, man. It was scary, dude. It was actually legit. I was like sitting there on the couch for like the next hour and a half, just like very sheepish. Yeah. Dang, that was scary. I'm sorry, man. That was scary. Yeah. That's traumatic. Yeah.

[00:02:32] Got it out of my throat though. So no Heimlich was required. And now I will be chewing more and taking smaller bites. So here's your PSA of the day. I was going to say, I know Taco Bell always excites you, but you need to take it easy. Yeah, man. That was going to be taking it easier from now on when it comes to chewing and smaller bites, but that's aside from the point. No one needs to. The main point is Taco Bell, we're available for sponsorship. Yes.

[00:03:01] I am a fan of Taco Bell. You talked about it. Yeah, the bean burritos, that was always my big recovery food was the bean burritos. It's not cheesy, you know, but like salty after a big run. I just go pound three of the just plain bean burritos and it was like, it was great. I like that five layer. They still doing the five layer? I think so. Without the bean, what I would get. Yeah. Well, to each their own. Yes. Let's get into this flooding though.

[00:03:31] You see all this stuff. Crazy. Southwest Colorado. Pagosa Springs hit really hard, but there are 12 counties that were under a disaster emergency declaration or whatever it's called. Inches of rain. I think Pagosa Springs got over five inches of rain between October 22nd and 23rd. South Fork and Del Norte got over four inches of rain, so just widespread flooding. Terrifying videos, to be honest.

[00:04:00] It was a lot of damage, you know. And we're recording this on Monday. Rain's supposed to kind of slow down quite a bit and those water levels are supposed to keep dropping. So that's good news. I haven't seen anything about any deaths. I haven't seen anything about injuries yet, but maybe more news will come out in days to come. There was this pretty crazy RV rescue story. You see that? No, I did not. No, no.

[00:04:28] So this family apparently lived local and KDVR had a pretty big report on it. But they were evacuating their home in their RV. They got it packed up and were heading out with all their pets. They had, I want to say, three dogs and two cats and then a couple. And the RV somehow ended up in Rio Blanco River, flipped on its side. They were stranded for about 12 hours before an aerial rescue took place.

[00:04:55] Colorado National Guard flew in in a helicopter, pulled these people out of the RV as it's flipped on its side. So pretty, pretty scary stuff there. Sounds like all of them were safely rescued, including the three dogs and the two cats. So, but yeah, something, it's been a pretty wild, wild week down in Southwest Colorado. I saw some roadways just washed away. Yeah. Pretty major roads. Yeah. Right. And, and yeah, I mean, there was some pretty significant damage on Million Dollar Highway.

[00:05:25] Yep. Right between URA and Silverton. Silverton. So, um, yeah, a lot of these, uh, road closures still in place too. A lot of debris got, uh, washed out kind of onto that like Wolf Creek Pass area. I think there was a 20 mile stretch of road there closed. A lot of detours in place. So, um, yeah, something to keep in mind if you're going to be traveling anywhere down there. Yeah. Check, check that co-trip map, Colorado Department of Transportation co-trip map.

[00:05:52] Definitely thinking about our South and Southwestern Coloradans. Mm-hmm. For sure. That's some big time water, man. And I know it's kind of irrelevant and I hesitate to even say it because obviously the focus needs to be on recovery and all that, you know, what's happened. But how can I not wonder or think about if that precipitation fell as snow? Oh, right. And it did in certain, in certain spots. Um, yeah.

[00:06:18] Like I was looking at the, uh, National Weather Service map and it looked like some peaks in that area got 18 plus inches. Right. And so, but very high, higher areas. Right. Um, but still, yeah, snowpack. That's, yeah, that's what I've thought about, you know, just drought busting snowpack. Yeah. And no real snow in, uh, in, in the part of the state, you know, like that, like central mountain summit County area where, where some of those places open up quickly. Uh, don't know. I mean, Wolf Creek pass got hit. I don't know how much snow landed at the ski area. They haven't updated their website. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:48] And I think, I wonder, I'm, uh, I feel like that passes, has some issues right now. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not entirely sure if it's closed or not, but I feel like I've heard some rumblings that, that, that's part of the, and there, that got hit pretty hard. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm entirely sure. But, uh, I did see that, um, Arapah Basin and I think Loveland maybe are snowmaking again. It's cold enough for them to snowmake again. Uh, still TBD on, on when those spots will open up.

[00:07:17] But October 26th. Is that what you're seeing? Well, uh, no. Today is October 26th. No opening day. No opening day announced yet. And it makes me, yeah. I mean, I, didn't we have like a Halloween opening? Yeah. Not too long ago. Yeah. That happens. I wonder if there's some hope for that or not, or if we're going to get into November. Yeah. That's been fairly rare in the past 20 years. It's true. And I mean, snowpack is above the norm right now. Still, um, 155% of what's typical for October 26th. Statewide.

[00:07:44] So, um, but where that snowpack is higher. Right. Is down in Southern Colorado, Southwest Colorado. Yep. So, um, pretty interesting stuff. You see that the, uh, not to totally switch the subject, but I did want to mention this as, uh, some news. Of course. But the, uh, Colorado Springs football team, uh, has their branding now. Stampede. Stampede. Yep. Colorado Stampede. I hear the coach say something like, uh, you can't stop Stampede. I like it. Or the line, right? I like it. Yeah.

[00:08:14] Their, uh, tickets are pretty affordable too. I was looking season tickets. They have some that are as low as 75 bucks for five games for the season ticket. Yeah. Yep. So the season is five games. Yeah. Five games. Oh, 10 games, five home, five away. Of course. Okay. Um, taking place in the spring. Uh, I will definitely be going to at least one of those games. Oh yeah. Me too. Yeah. Their, their, uh, uniform colors are kind of like this, a brown and like a burnt orange. So it feels, I like the branding. I'm pretty happy with it. We talked about it. Yeah.

[00:08:42] I mean, that stadium sees the brown and burnt orange and then the, the bright blue, right? Of switchbacks. Yep. Remind me. I got to load up on my switchbacks swag. I got to get my stampede swag. Yeah, man. Colorado Springs represent. I think I've visited the, the UFL shop like 10 times in the last 24 hours being like, which hat should I get? Haven't made a purchase yet, but I will. Uh, I'd be curious to see what the roster looks like. Me too. You and I are kind of football nuts as people might know watching this show.

[00:09:10] I bet there's going to, I wonder if there's going to be some names that we'll recognize out there. I would have a hard time believing there's not. I mean, who knows though? Just from the collegiate ranks, you know? Or even like, you know, the NFL pros year or two and at the NFL level, maybe they, they bounce out of there for one reason or another and, uh, end up in the UFL. But yeah, I'm, I'm excited for that. My greatest hope is that, uh, Jay Cutler is the opening day starter, former Bronco and Bear great. There we go. That would be amazing. Stampede quarterback, Jay Cutler. Yeah.

[00:09:40] I like it. I would, I would go watch that. Um, dude, I would. Yeah. Yeah. They will, they will be doing the all you can eat, all you can drink tickets too at that like club level where you're, you're not in like a suite you're in like maybe slightly more comfortable chairs, I think. Cool. But you do get like the burgers and hot dogs and beer and stuff. So yeah, I think that's the way to do it at the Switchbacks Stadium. For people unfamiliar, switchback stadium right, right off downtown Colorado spring. Pretty much see it from the highway. Yeah. From my 25. Yeah. Brand new. Very nice stadium.

[00:10:11] There's, there's some sporting happenings in downtown Colorado. Colorado Springs. Got a lot of, uh, new stuff popping up in that area too. Yeah. Uh, the Brits right there. You got, what is it? Train wreck right over there too. It's pretty popular. That cool bar down there. Um, just gotta get baseball figured out. Gotta get the baseball team back in town. Yeah. That's true. These vibes. That was a great, that was some great branding. I thought it was. I'm happy with Stampede. I like vibes. Happy with Stampede. Yeah. Good to go. Cool. Um, so, uh, one last quick news story that we already put a video out about.

[00:10:39] So people might've heard about this, but you see the story about the dude in Clear Creek County who found the bear going through his trash. No. Got in a little bit of a, uh. Tussle? Tussle. Which is the word I went with in the video we put out already. I didn't see the video. Yeah. Yeah. So got in a little bit. I've been, I've been doing this with you too long, you know? We use the same words. Yeah. It was a 1 a.m. Thursday morning. Uh, here's something going through his trash outside, right? Uh, here's noises outside. Goes outside. Uh, finds a bear going, trying to get into his trash.

[00:11:06] Um, yells at the bear, but instead of scaring the bear off, it charged him. And that is when this tussle occurs. Um, kind of pushes the bear away. The bear comes back at him and then he kicks the bear. Whoa. And the kick was enough to get the bear to flee the scene. Whoa. So, um. God. Just another story of a bold bear, man. Yeah. 12th bear attack of the season. Um. Staggering. According to Colorado Parks and Wildlife, uh, they, at last report, they had not found the bear though. I think they were trying to find the bear.

[00:11:36] Um, news could have changed since last Friday when the story broke. But, uh, yeah. So there's like, he kicked me. Yeah. Right. He assaulted me. Yep. Uh, yeah. The, uh, the man did have to get some medical attention. Uh, there was nothing about the severity of that, but he did, did seek some medical care. So, um, yeah. So that's, uh, that's one last quick news story there for you. Um, but I am really excited to talk about something, Seth.

[00:12:02] We both love pizza and you're telling me that Colorado has a town that is, uh, kind of becoming the pizza capital of the state. Tell me about it. Quite a claim. Don't you think? The pizza capital of Colorado. Could that be? Uh, Longmont, Colorado. There's been growing buzz around Longmont of Northern Colorado, uh, around this reputation of the pizza capital of Colorado.

[00:12:31] So kind of springing from, uh, a month ago in September, um, um, um, three pizzerias came together. Longstanding Rosalie's alongside kind of some newcomers been around a few years now in urban field and, uh, Antonio's. Um, these three came together to put on, uh, a pizza festival, which by their accounts was a big success. If people went, they're going to remember these long lines.

[00:13:01] There was kind of some, some hard feelings about these long lines, which were not expected, which should also speak to how excited people are about a potential pizza camp in Colorado. Right? So pizza festival was put on, uh, about like 9,000 people showed up. Dang. A couple dozen, uh, pizzerias. It sounds like came by to sling pizzas all in this effort to, uh, raise money, uh, to fight hunger and food insecurity.

[00:13:29] Um, these three pizzerias, uh, formed a nonprofit around that mission. And these three pizzerias are kind of trumpeting, uh, this reputation, or at least happy to talk about it, happy to, uh, bring attention to their little part of Northern Colorado and the upshot here. Most importantly, pizza is really good. And you went to all three places. I went to all three. If I look a little fatter this episode, now, you know why. In one day.

[00:13:58] I got, I got a slice at each. There you go. All right. I had to try these out. There are more pizza places in Longmont to be clear, but we're talking, I'm talking about these three as kind of, again, uh, championing this effort, championing the pizza festival that went on and Hey, don't take it from me. Like some major attention has come to these three places. Right. Uh, we can start with Rosalie's, you know, like last year, I think they, they came on a list, like coming out like 14 on this list of top 50 slices nationally. Um, I think they've been around since like 2014.

[00:14:27] I want to say they're in Longmont on the main street. Uh, they've gotten a great local reputation, really cool hangout. Um, super good pizza, uh, met the owner in the back who was tossing dough. Of course. He's out of Pennsylvania kind of subscribes to this East coast style, you know, it's got some, some looks of New York, but like crispier in my experience, like crispier than New York and, um, super tasty, super fresh tasted hearty to me. Really good.

[00:14:56] Uh, from there, you know, we can, we can talk about, um, Antonio's people probably familiar with his name. Been in Estes park for a long time, just down the main street from Rosalie's. Uh, you walk in there in Longmont and there's a banner at the top about Washington post, uh, calling them the best New York slice Colorado. It's kind of like an older school pizzeria, you know, slices at the ready, lots of different slices and fold that pizza and feel like you're getting a slice of New York there.

[00:15:24] And then I got to talk about urban field, urban field, man. Uh, again, this is a, another, um, place that's gotten some international acclaim has gotten some top finishes at the international pizza expo in Vegas. And, um, this pie refuses to be categorized, man. You look at it and you think you're looking maybe at like a Detroit pizza, you know, kind

[00:15:53] of that deeper dish, but that crust, like it's an eye catching pizza, man. It's like just this, uh, crust of cheese, a crispy cheese. And it's got some gourmet elements to it, you know, from the mind of a, uh, guy out of culinary school in New York. So it's really not what you expect. Like it looks heavy. I would call it light. Interesting. It's like airy.

[00:16:20] It's like Detroit meets Roman meets Sicilian kind of with like different, um, different sauces you probably wouldn't expect and just attention to ingredients that you wouldn't expect. And it is really good. I know I've talked about it probably more than the other two, but just because it's so different. What I've never had anything like it. So when you were trying all these pizzas, did you get like the same standard? Like cheese pepperoni slice. So you can get recommendations. I went with recommendations.

[00:16:48] I was like, what's, what's, what's the good stuff? What's the good stuff? So it was, uh, it was awesome, man. And then, you know, um, there's a newcomer to town, uh, just in the past few weeks, I want to say a slice house has opened, which is a concept by a world pizza champion, you know, joining the scene in Longmont. So pizza capital in Colorado. What's the new one? Maybe Longmont. What's the new one called? Uh, uh, slice house. Slice house. Okay. Cool.

[00:17:15] Slice house by, uh, by like I said, um, a big name in the pizza world, pizza, uh, world pizza champion. So I will say it is funny. The three that you talked about there that you visited, um, I'm on, on Google right now looking up the reviews and Google summarizes the reviews into like one sentence a lot of the time when you look up a list like this, uh, Rosalie's, the review is best pizza in Long Mart, Longmont by far. And Antonito's, um, is possibly serving. Yeah. Antonia's. You're thinking.

[00:17:45] Possibly serving the best pizza I've ever had in urban field, easily the best pizza in Longmont. So that's like literally all of those three spots. No conclusion. What's the best? Because all three are the best. It sounds like, huh? It sounds like quite the day, man. That's awesome. It's there's a growing scene there, man. It's really interesting. And, you know, just like, um, that town is just really transformed in the past 10 years, you know? And I kind of was asking this question, like, is it a coincidence that this kind of reputation has come to this part of Colorado?

[00:18:14] And I kind of was hearing this common refrain of just, you know, this is like a town of, of, uh, food minded people, you know, in a place that, um, has a history of farming and growing. And so there's a heightened attention to ingredients, you know, it's a creative place for sure. Um, where creativity shines. And I think you, you're just kind of seeing that in the pizza scene there and no one is

[00:18:42] getting boxed in like in Chicago, if you will, where you're going to, you got to go thick or super thin or in New York, or maybe you got to go thin. Right. I mean, the, the genres, they kind of bounce between genres and Longmont and they seem happy to do that. Very cool. Yeah. Cool stuff. I mean, you get on your radar if you like pizza or you wait for next year for the pizza festival. It sounds like there's going to be another, a second annual pizza festival. There we go. I do love pizza and a pizza festival. Sounds like it is right up my alley.

[00:19:11] I was told it was like the single biggest event Longmont's ever had. I don't know if that's true. I was told that. That's wild. Um, but yeah, just speaks to people love pizza. Yeah. People love pizza. People love pizza. Yeah. Um, so, uh, I wanted to get, we, last week we chatted about, um, how, uh, Salida is. Yeah. Salida, Salida, right. Potato, potato. Um, how that town name is pronounced.

[00:19:36] I wanted to get into how another town name is pronounced, um, that people seem to argue about all the time. Is this becoming a weekly feature now? It might, it might have to be. It might have to be. People really seem to like, uh, like, uh, I know. Conversing in the comments about this one. So, uh, it might be a weekly feature at this point, but, um, so Colorado famously has a lot of town names that have Spanish influence, right?

[00:20:03] Um, people often think that Lyman is one of those, but it's not, it's Lyman. I've always said Lyman. Yeah. And it has nothing to do with the Spanish word for lemon. It's actually named after a person. Um, so to, to kind of settle that debate immediately, it's named after John Lyman, who was a, uh, a, uh, construction, uh, foreman for the railroad system in this part of the state way back in the day, talking like late 1800s.

[00:20:31] Essentially, um, the reason that Lyman exists as a town is because it was where, uh, two different rail lines met, uh, one kind of coming, coming out of Colorado Springs into that area. And then another one North that it kind of forms this little, like, like a V shape. And then the town and this, this railway depot is right there. So, um, the name originally comes from, there was a, I think it was called, uh, Camp Lyman,

[00:20:57] uh, named after this person who was really influential in the railway development in this part of the state, um, or Lyman's camp, I guess. And then eventually Lyman's camp became Lyman station, um, Lyman Depot. And then the town of Lyman started to be, uh, budding there, um, just north of that, just with all of this rail industry in that area. So, uh, the Lyman railroad, uh, depot actually remained active until, um, uh, 1980.

[00:21:26] Now it's part of the Lyman heritage museum and railroad park. And you can actually visit it between Memorial day and labor day. So, um, yeah, another word that tends to get mispronounced quite a bit. It is not Limon. It is Lyman. And it is because it is named after John Lyman. All right. But I still maintain this state as a lot of creative ways of, uh, butchering Spanish pronunciations. It's true. It's true. They do. And I'm learning that more and more. Yep.

[00:21:52] And, uh, next week we'll probably talk about another one where it is just a true butchering of, of how a word should be pronounced. Um, what a shame. How it generally is pronounced. But, uh. What a shame. For today, uh, that is, that is not necessarily the case. I'm trying to think of some other ones we got. I need you to get on the case, you know. I think we'll get into, uh, I have a whole list back in my desk. I don't want to, I don't want to spoil them too much. Fair enough. Uh, but I do have a list of some pretty good candidates, uh, for, for this, uh, ongoing

[00:22:21] conversation about how names around Colorado are pronounced. Um, what else do we want to get into here? Oh, so you, so you mentioned this and, uh, uh, this is a topic that we've kind of touched on here and there before, but, uh, basically equity in the outdoor recreation world and how, um, various barriers can tend to get put in place, whether that's a reservation system, whether that is a pay to play, uh, scheme, so to speak, or not scheme, but, you know, you know.

[00:22:52] Arrangement. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you've been doing some research on how, uh, how reservation systems end up impacting, um, people of lower incomes ability to, uh, explore natural spaces. Would you mind getting into that? For sure. So a recent paper out from, uh, University of Colorado at Boulder, uh, economist, John Hughes,

[00:23:17] he's got some research out kind of looking into, um, uh, what these reservation systems across national parks mean for equity or lack thereof, right? Springing from his own experiences that people like you and me have had getting on the computer right away for when some of these super popular and competitive permits become available. Right. Uh, Jonathan Hughes was telling me, you know, he's had times where he'll get his computer

[00:23:46] out and he'll have his wife and his kids get their computer out, you know, and make sure the inner, the internet is, uh, firing on all cylinders and, uh, giving himself the best chance to snag some of these high in demand permits. Right. We've all experienced this, right. Trying to get these, uh, these super competitive reservations. And he got to thinking like, does everyone, you know, what does my competition look like?

[00:24:11] Like, do, do other people have the same means that I have here to be attempting this? Right. And he did past research into those questions led him to past research into reservation systems on like Western rivers. Right. And so he compiled data from those permits, those permits that were booked and, um, crunched

[00:24:35] numbers pertaining to zip codes under those permits and found that those systems favor higher income zip codes. He has found similar, um, correlations when it comes to the national parks, right? Like Rocky mountain national park. Um, along with six others that he researched that he studied and analyzed and compiled numbers and Rocky mountain national park in particular, um, especially when it comes to the bear lake

[00:25:04] corridor, um, what he found was the more competitive these systems were, the more generally they favored, um, higher income people or people in higher income zip codes. Right. So to put some numbers behind that, um, across the board for these 11 different systems at seven national parks, um, he found that the successful permit holders came from zip codes

[00:25:34] with medium, median household incomes. There were about three to 6% higher than those reservations linked with less competitive permits. If that makes sense, if you follow me there. Mm-hmm so numbers there again, he kind of made some calculations and found that those incomes were in the range of higher in the range of 2,700 to $5,000 higher. Right. So, you know, I mean, people might look at that and wonder how significant are those differences?

[00:26:04] Right. And his kind of messages is, is not so much to, to look at the numbers, but to understand and realize these increasing, this increasing trend, right? Mm-hmm. I mentioned his research into the river system. There's been other studies into backcountry permits, into camping permits. There's well-established, uh, research about how people in lower income neighborhoods have lesser access to green spaces, right?

[00:26:32] Relevant or irrelevant to the conversation we're having, but national parks allude to, um, this system of public lands and how, how he talks about it is like the bigger takeaway here is that increasingly we're, we're finding, um, that this, that the idea, the whole goal and purpose of the public land system to protect natural resources and also provide access with

[00:26:59] these reservation systems, those two goals might be at odds with each other, right? Protecting and providing access. It seems research continues to show that, um, that access is maybe for certain people, right? That's kind of the troubling trend that this, that his research is, is sort of joining here. Right. Um, and of course we got to talk about as, as he points out, like,

[00:27:28] top of the paper, why these reservation systems came into place, right? Um, record visitation across the national park system, uh, especially, you know, coming out of COVID just unprecedented numbers and Rocky mountain national park was among these parks that said, you know, we gotta, we gotta protect the environment. We gotta protect the infrastructure. We need to understand our own staffing. We need to understand emergency response. And the way to achieve those goals is to implement some crowd control. Right.

[00:27:59] Um, but the question now is like, what, what does that mean for, for some people and for other people? Right. And, um, yeah, it seems like that's kind of the key challenge here, right? Designing a system that achieves those goals of preservation and protecting and protection while allowing for broader access. Right. So we could sit and talk about like, all right, so what, why are less privileged people?

[00:28:28] What are the barriers for less privileged people? Yeah. That's my question is why does this difference exist? Um, and, and what does he say something on that? Yep. And there's some level of speculation there, but he could draw on his own experiences of having a computer, having multiple computers, having the luxury maybe of a job or lack thereof that allows you to get on your computer at 8am on a Wednesday when some of these super popular

[00:28:56] and competitive permits become available. Maybe that's a luxury that some people don't have. Right. I think on the same note there too, um, higher income jobs tend to come with a little bit more flexibility in terms of time off. Mm-hmm. So maybe you are able to make more reservations if you're in one of those positions because you're able to take a Monday off or, or able to take the day off to find reservations, et cetera. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:20] One of his thoughts is like, is maybe, um, breaking up or staggering out the reservations. And we see that to a certain extent now at Rocky Mountain National Park, if I'm right. Yeah. Some become available like at the start of the month. Mm-hmm. Some become available maybe like the day before. A few days. Yeah. It's a couple days, I think. So, so his point is like maybe staggering more of that out because it seems like less privileged people have more success, um, with smaller windows like that. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:51] Um, or there, his, he seems to find evidence of that maybe favoring. Yeah. When you have less. Other demographics more. When you have less flexibility with work, it's harder to plan far ahead. Yeah. For sure. Um, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, another, you know, he, the way he put it was, you know, if, if equity continues to be a big concern, a major concern that he's seeing more conversation around lottery system. Mm-hmm.

[00:30:17] Because at least in a lottery system, it's fair in the sense that everyone has an equal chance. Mm-hmm. You know, it's names drawn at random. Yeah. It's unfair in the sense of maybe there's some people with a bucket list goal here to get this thing. And there's some people who just log on and say, hey, this looks fun. You know, this looks interesting. Right. So, you know, it, there's, it, there's a lot of debate about that.

[00:30:44] I think like, you know, what, how do we, how do we, um, maintain fairness? Yeah. Right. And how are we looking out for people from all different situations for whom these systems aren't really designed? Right. Yeah. I would also be curious, um, to see if he's able to find data on how many people, um, across various, uh, zip codes based on, based on income, uh, are applying.

[00:31:14] Like do people in Boulder County where you're living right on the mountains, obviously very high income area in Colorado, um, is outdoor recreation more top of mind? Right. Or, you know, are 70% of people in Boulder County trying to get these reservations? For sure. Thus skewing that data a little bit compared to maybe someone who doesn't live right on nature, um, potentially in one of these lower incomes. And who aren't as familiar, just, you know, these systems are more front facing for, for

[00:31:42] some people just based on that geography that you're living to for sure. Yeah. And that was his thing. I kind of asked about that and he recognized like the, the variability that exists in this data point that exists in this zip code, right? In zip codes alone, there is a wide range of, of, of incomes, right? How much can you really glean, uh, from this data set? Right. And again, he kind of leans more on this trend that seems to exist, right?

[00:32:11] That, um, you, you know, we can put it this way more and more research suggests that access is more favorable to certain groups of people. Yeah. And when there's even that sort of suggestion, that would be at odds with a national park system that trumpets access, you know, that, that public land, meaning land for all. Right.

[00:32:35] And are these systems, uh, putting a wedge in that longstanding mission, you know? So, you know, there's no answers from this research, but it's the conversation that I think the researcher seems to be interested in and how do we sort of recognize this, understand this more and revise systems around it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, it's a conversation that's been going on for a long time too.

[00:33:03] And there's controversy in that, I mean, going into this summer, we saw those reservation systems dropped at Arches, Glacier and Yosemite. Right. And the government statement was along the lines of, you know, that these national parks belong to the American people and our priority is keeping them open and accessible. And from that you heard praise. And then you also heard some serious concern from environmental types, from advocacy types

[00:33:31] that said, um, these systems are in place to protect land, to protect the visitor experience, protect infrastructure, all those things. Right. And so we're going to keep having a tough time finding whatever that balance is, you know, whether they should be in place or not. This research doesn't, doesn't, you know, take any stand there.

[00:33:56] It's just saying, here's another, here's another, uh, troubling finding and let's talk about it. Another data point in the mix. Yep. Yep. Interesting stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That, uh, that conversation is one that will continue for quite some time, I'm sure. Yep. Um, yeah. And I mean, both of us for the, for the record too, it's like both of us care about increasing access as much as possible in the outdoor recreation space too.

[00:34:24] So this is a topic that I, I definitely do hold near and dear to my heart. I mean, even with up and down and stuff like that's all we're about, like it's, uh, how do you make it more feasible to, to get more people outside regardless of where they're coming from or what their life situation is and, um, how do you make it even just easier to be introduced to new places, new activities, things like that. So. Yeah, for sure.

[00:34:49] It, and it wades into political topics, you know, maybe I was getting touching on it with the administration's move going into the summer, right? You and I, uh, avoid politics. I think people appreciate that, that we avoid politics, right? This is a break from that, but inevitably this is an issue that involves politics, right? But it's also just, so it's a social issue, you know, and it's a conversation and that's all we're doing here. Yeah. Speaking a little bit about politics too.

[00:35:18] Um, people listening here may have seen it on the, the, uh, episode list already, but, um, the mayor of Colorado Springs was on and he was talking about, uh, one of the topics we discussed, um, just this last episode that we published earlier today on, on Monday. So if you go back and you can find it, um, talking about how local government can play a role in increasing accessibility when it comes to the outdoor recreation space and, um, how to, how can the government be there for the community doing that?

[00:35:45] And that does seem like it is one of his, uh, one of his focuses whenever he, um, was kind of going over what his, uh, his key concerns are. So definitely go check that episode out. If you want to hear from an actual politician and from someone who is directly involved in politics, um, opposed to Seth Rye, who, uh, like you said, tend to, to avoid it. I was going to say, we don't, you know, we don't look very politically. Yeah. Yeah. I will never be a mayor. I know that. One day there will be a mayor who walks into his office in a flannel shirt.

[00:36:14] I'm confident in Colorado. Yep. Seems like a long time coming. Very true. So it's, uh, it's October. I wanted to, uh, we've been talking about snow quite a bit here and there, touch and go. Um, I wanted to look back at this wild historic blizzard that hit the Colorado Springs area and beyond, uh, up into Denver, um, all the way back in 1997, uh, from October 24th to

[00:36:41] October 26th, feet of snow fell along the I-25 corridor, essentially just shutting down the, this entire part of the state for like a week. Like I've heard lots of memories, lots of nightmares. Yeah. Crazy stuff. Um, to kind of get into some of these numbers from this October storm, just to, just to remind people that these October storms can happen on the front range, uh, Palmer Lake, which is between Colorado Springs and Denver got 52 inches of snow during that period.

[00:37:10] According to the national weather service, the snow drifts were 15 feet tall. Wow. Wild. Um, just think of a basketball hoop plus five feet. Right. And that's the snow drift and like they were having a hard time measuring the snow drifts because of how big the snow drifts were. Uh, meanwhile, monument 40, 49 inches, uh, black forest, um, anywhere between 36 and 48 inches, 49 inches. Colorado Springs, some parts I've seen got close to that three feet of snow mark as well.

[00:37:39] Um, but absolutely wild winds were like 50 to 60 miles per hour. Um, and this is what 20, 29 years ago now. So, uh, a very historic storm just in the sense that we're still talking about it today. Um, Denver Metro reportedly got between like 14 and 31 inches. So just crazy stuff. Estimated 20,000 cattle were killed. Thousands of people were left stuck, uh, stranded in their build or in their vehicles.

[00:38:04] Um, a lot of road closures, obviously multi-day power outages. Um, so yeah, one of those, uh, just ahead of, ahead of this winter season, um, a good reminder to be prepared. Uh, the most tragic aspect of that blizzard too, though, seven people died. Wow. Um, three people. And, uh, I mean, there's a big takeaway from this tragedy here in this sense, but three people were stranded in their vehicle for 24 hours and ended up dying due to carbon monoxide poisoning. Oh, wow. Cause the tailpipe got covered with snow.

[00:38:34] So that's a big thing. If you are ever stuck in a stranded vehicle, make sure that, you know, you're clearing that tailpipe or rolling, cracking the windows or whatever you can do. So you're not inhaling all those fields. Other ways to stay warm other than your, uh, yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, meanwhile, um, someone on post at Fort Carson froze to death in their vehicle. Uh, and so another very tragic situation there.

[00:39:01] Um, in Otero County, a woman got stuck in her vehicle in a rural area and froze to death. Bent County Hunter, uh, also froze to death, uh, got stuck out in open terrain. And then there was a fatal blizzard related crash down in Pueblo. Wow. Um, so yeah. And, and plenty of injuries too. Like, uh, there's one story I was reading where a gas station canopy collapsed, um, and injured two people. Yeah. Just under the weight of the snow, uh, in Colorado Springs.

[00:39:27] So, um, very tragic in that regard. And then massive economic losses as well. Uh, businesses closed down, you know, for, for multiple days at a time. Um, school was canceled in certain areas for like a whole week. Um, so yeah, wild stuff and a good reminder that. Yeah. October's here and these storms can roll through. And like we were talking about it earlier in the episode, you mentioned it where it's

[00:39:54] like, what if that would have come as snow instead of rain down in Southwest Colorado? And I mean, would have been something like this probably, um, eat of snow. I mean, five inches of rain. It's like the standard for the conversion. Um, and it depends on temperature and a lot of factors, moisture in the air, et cetera. But, um, the standard is about 10 inches of snow for every inch of rain. Right. So, and that's, I mean, and like I said, it varies, uh, quite a bit depending on other factors, but that tends to be what you hear referenced the most. Yeah.

[00:40:24] So you start thinking, okay, now 5.3 inches, I think in Pagosa Springs or around that. Yeah. That's 53 inches of snow. It could have fallen in Pagosa Springs area. So that's scary. Yeah. Obviously I talked about it as a way, like, man, what it would be like for drought. But you know, we all, we all, we're all hoping for snow, but yeah, we're never hoping for deadly snow. Yeah. Yeah. So with this weather rolling through literally on the exact same dates as this blizzard,

[00:40:51] you know, it's important to remember that that happened 29 years ago. Crazy. Um, apparently good things downstream though, because of this, apparently all these reservoirs, it's been the silver lining we'll say from the flooding that has happened. Um, a lot of these reservoirs that were extremely dry have gained feet of water in a good way where it's like after, after this, this, um, community in Southern Southwest Colorado and beyond and Utah, et cetera.

[00:41:17] After they're able to assess those damages and start to recover the one silver lining is at least that a lot of the really dry places in that Colorado river basin and South are getting some much, much, much needed moisture. So mother nature giveth and mother nature taketh. Yeah. No doubt. And Colorado. Um, so speaking of reservoirs, you want to talk about this, uh, Pikes Peak situation? Right. Yeah. Maybe people have heard about this.

[00:41:42] Uh, sounds like, I think the governor was, uh, in the Pikes Peak region on Friday along with some others to celebrate the groundbreaking of what they're calling a Pikes Peak recreation area at Rosemont reservoir, um, in the hills Southwest of Colorado Springs. Gosh, I think it's like an hour and a half drive from town to get there, but this, it's going to be a new camping opportunity, uh, in the Colorado Springs area and on Pikes Peak, you know, it's got some luster in that, in that, uh, context too, you know, to be able

[00:42:12] to say a new, new camping area, uh, along Pikes Peak. Um, part of this broader, um, effort to kind of rethink or reimagine land management in the Pikes Peak region. Um, there's been, we've talked about it, a lot of talk about Colorado parks and wildlife, uh, maybe playing a broader role on Pikes Peak and the adjoining landscape, uh, to kind

[00:42:38] of open up recreation in a new way and manage recreation in a new way in a landscape that's spotted with several different land managers, you know, from local to federal to state, largely forest service. Right. There's just some more interest while that federal agency, um, is strapped resources wise and very focused on fire mitigation, you know, could Colorado parks and wildlife step up in, in terms of recreation.

[00:43:04] And this is, I think that's how I read the situation, but this is like an example of kind of them showcasing what the, you know, what the potential could be, you know, and it's a very scenic area in its own right. And, uh, it's going to be a new, really beautiful place to camp out. Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful area up there. I'm glad to see more of it opening up. Yep. Um, yeah, the, uh, I mean, everyone knows Pikes Peak, right? Everyone knows the, the Cog Railway. Everyone knows the road to the top.

[00:43:34] Everyone knows the two hiking trails, Crags and Barr. Um, but people miss it, miss the reservoirs quite a bit. I think so much. Yeah. There's so much more. So much more. Those North slope reservoirs. I always put a plug in every year for the South slope. You know, it's the access is pretty tough back there and really limited, man. It is just gorgeous back there. Yeah. Yeah. It really is. Frankly, I've always imagined like, you know, there was new sort of management back there to kind of formalize that area a little more. Yeah.

[00:44:03] I'm excited for the ring to peak. Yeah. I want, I want that. That's, that's what excites me most. I think just because I think that'll really put it on the map in the sense of like back bike packers and everything coming around. Like that'll be, uh, you know, being able to walk around the entire mountain and see all the sites. Like that'll be awesome. America's mountain. America's mountain. Um, so yeah, real quick to kind of close out the show. Uh, you want to, you want to draft some national parks and national monuments. Time to do some rankings. Yeah. We go, well, we're going back and forth.

[00:44:33] You pick one and then I'll pick one. And as we pick, they go away. So you can't pick the same one that I've picked and vice versa. Okay. Um, but we learning as we go here, we each have a list of all of the national monuments in Colorado. Uh, technically there are eight of them. And then there are four national parks as well. So we're including all of those. So we got 12 to pick from, um, we'll, we'll each pick five and then we'll let the listeners

[00:44:59] and the viewers decide which, which person has the better list, which team is better. Yeah. All right. I like it. All right, Seth, with that said, what is your first pick? With the first pick of the 2026, uh, Colorado national monuments and park draft. Yep. Uh, give me the sand dunes, man. Ooh. Unlike any landscape in Colorado. All right. Right. Whether it's a local park or a state park or a national park, this, this is a place unlike

[00:45:29] any other. Gotta go sand dunes. Number one. What about you? Man. Okay. I mean, my number one, uh, people might roll their eyes at this one, but Rocky Mountain National Park. I'm going for it. All right. Why not? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's Colorado's biggest national park. It's a beautiful area. There's a lot of things you can do year round. Um, it's popular for a reason. So that's my pick. Number one, the elk rut and fall colors.

[00:45:55] Hard to beat that across the, uh, better go black Canyon of the guenison here again, quite like the sand dunes, just unlike really unlike any landscape. Right. And that you can drive up, get a view like that. Yeah. Great. Yeah. No vertical world. I was going to pick that one. Had you not picked it? But I think my, uh, my second pick here is going to have to be a Mesa Verde national park. Get all the, all the national parks out of the way.

[00:46:23] National parks for a reason, not, not to bash the national monuments, but national parks for a reason. I'm really excited to go back to Mesa Verde. I talked about, I went there for the first time last fall and of course did like a cliff, the cliff dwelling tour, which if you haven't been there, of course, that's what you got to do, but I didn't realize how vast and varied that park is. And how many sites there are like around the park. Um, that whole part of the country too. It's like, they're still finding new stuff. Yeah. Like it's, it's one of the few parts of the country.

[00:46:52] It feels like where they're still making new archeological finds all the time. Yep. So, all right. Getting into national monuments now, three picks left. I'm pretty proud of this pick man. All right. Colorado national monument. You know, people keep driving, uh, you know, on 70 out toward Moab without realizing like we got a slice of Moab right there around grand junction and Bruda. That is a remarkable landscape. Colorado national monument. Red rock wonderland. Another one.

[00:47:21] You just stole right from me there. Um, but I'm going to go Brown's Canyon national monument. Most popular stretch of whitewater rafting, simming from that, that area and really stretching that entire, uh, that recreation area. Um, yeah. I mean, if you like water sports, if you like camping, good camping, great camping, beautiful little area, not too crowded. Um, typically at least anytime I've been down there, at least from the camping standpoint. Um, yeah, I'm going to go Brown's Canyon national monument. My third pick. Sneaky little pick there, man.

[00:47:51] Mm hmm. I'm trying to win this, Seth. Well, that's too bad. Cause I'm going to win it with this next one. Dinosaur national monument. That place is nuts, man. I should have picked first. I knew it. It's called dinosaur national monument, you know, because of the wall of fossils, obviously. But that back country is immense and colorful and stunning. You know, I'm not just picking it for the fossils. Love dinosaurs. Big, big dinosaur guy over here.

[00:48:18] But I'm talking more about that landscape is amazing. That's a good one. That's another one that I wanted on my list. Uh, what is it? That, that massive monolithic rock there that you kind of can see as you go around the, uh, river bend. Yeah, what is it? I get what it's called, but it is stunning out there. Yeah, I'm totally blanking on that. Um, okay. So. Honestly, we both got to spend more time there. So you like dinosaurs. Prehistoric. I like history. I'm going to go Camp Hale. Oh. And the Continental Divide National Monument.

[00:48:47] The newest national monument, I believe, in Colorado. The new kid on the block. Yeah, new kid on the block. Um, famously, uh, where the 10th Mountain Division did their training, uh, prior to World War II and our involvement there. And, uh, on Reva Ridge. Absolutely an iconic spot when it comes to outdoor recreation too, just in terms of how the people that trained at Camp Hale, uh, were really influential into getting the skiing and snowboarding industry going.

[00:49:15] So that's my, that's my, uh, number four right there. Okay. My number four might surprise people. This is your number five. Oh shoot. This is my number five. Yeah. My number five might surprise people. Um, it's my answer to your Mesa Verde National Park. Mm. Canyons of the Ancients. Yeah. National, national monument. It's a place that's hard to define because like the visitor center is well defined, obviously. But you get there and you're kind of like, where do I go next?

[00:49:45] The adventure is yours. I mean, it's a massive sprawling landscape, just kind of awaiting discovery, you know, with again, similar to Mesa Verde, um, some of these ruins in remains, uh, from ancient dwellings across this landscape, but you gotta go find it. I mean, you gotta be up for adventure, you know? So I think that's pretty, it's a pretty special swath of Colorado that not a whole lot of people know about. Yeah. And as I'm seeing it described too, um, I think it is the highest concentration of

[00:50:15] archeological sites in the country, I want to say. I've heard that. Um, but there's, uh, over 8,000 documented sites there. Yeah. Um, and they, they suspect there might be as many as 30,000 more. Yeah. I mean, you could, you could stay around Western Colorado for a long time trying to wrap your head around that place. It'd be amazing. Yeah. Man, this, this next one's going to be tricky here because there's a couple that I'm debating on for my last, my last pick of the draft. Ooh. And I want to Canyon of the Ancients as well.

[00:50:45] Um, so, so I'm going to throw it out there cause I'm not going to pick this one as my last pick, but people should go check out Chimney Rock National Monument. It is a beautiful spot. Um, some really cool events that they do there, uh, built around some of the stargazing aspects and the moon gazing. Yeah. A very cool spot. Um, but I think I'm going to have to go with the Florissant Fossil Beds National Monument

[00:51:12] as my last pick, just because I love the fact that there is evidence that you can go up and stand right beside that there used to be massive redwoods in Colorado. Totally. Um, and that is just so cool to me. And I mean that, that park, there's, there's some hiking trails there at, uh, at Florissant. Florissant Fossil Beds. Uh, but I mean, when you go, most people just go to look at the redwoods and it's not like it's this massive sprawling space that most people that are visiting explore.

[00:51:38] Um, but just, yeah, that like the historical significance of that to me is really what, what makes me appreciate it. And also in terms of stargazing there, they do their dark sky programs out there. Um, a little bit more accessible maybe, uh, just given it's close proximity to the front range. So that is my last pick. That's a high quality pick, man. Yeah. There's some amazing tree stumps there. So we got, uh, so you have, I can list it out for you. Ready? Yeah. Let's hear them.

[00:52:05] Sand Dunes, Black Canyon of the Gunnison, Colorado National Monument, Dinosaur National Monument. That's a steal. Canyons of the Ancients National Monument. Yep. And then I have Rocky Mountain National Park, Mesa Verde National Park, Browns Canyon National Monument, Camp Hale, the Continental Divide National Monument, and the Florissant Fossil Beds. I win. I like both these lists. I'll be honest. I like both these lists. Hey, man. I am, I am a little disappointed in myself for not, uh, not, not giving Dinosaur National

[00:52:35] Monument earlier or Canons of the Ancients too. But I'm happy. You got a lot of respect for the, uh, for the Browns Canyon and Camp Hale pick. And I don't mean to just glaze over Sand Dunes or Black Canyon of Gunnison either. Both very great spots as well. So. It's great spots. It's hard to go wrong. Up and down the list, man. It's hard to go wrong, but all right. Also shout out to the places that were not on our list at the end, because these are also great spots. We only had five picks each though.

[00:53:01] And, um, I think that you and I kind of picked off of our own experiences here too, where it's like, I haven't, I have not been to Yucca House National Monument. I've heard good things. I've not been to Hovind Weep National Monument. I've also heard good things about that. So, um, got to give them a shout out and yeah, go explore your national monuments. They tend to be less crowded, uh, than the national parks and then still really, really cool places to be. Totally. Yes. I, I, I kind of think like it has to do with the name monument. Like, you know, are there like, it's like state forest, state park. Right.

[00:53:31] It's like, yeah. It has like a little bit of like a, for whatever reason, it sounds bland when in reality, a very cool spot. Totally. Like Colorado National Monument. What's that? A stone, uh, monument? Like a, you know, like a, no, it's awful. But, um, good stuff, man. All right. I think that's about all we got for the day. Got anything else? I'm good, man. All right. Until next time, we will see you out there. I am Spencer. And I am Seth. Oh yeah. And I will see you out there. We will see you out there somewhere.