In this episode of the OutThere Colorado podcast, Spencer and Seth chat about outdoorsy spots to be thankful for this Thanksgiving, big snow that's set to hit the state, the death of a Colorado legend, a housing report that predicts new 'million dollar' cities in Colorado, changes that might be coming to a popular Colorado spot, & more.
[00:00:00] Welcome to the OutThere Colorado Podcast. I'm Spencer McKee and I'm here with Seth Boster. Hey, gang. Today we have many interesting things to talk about. As always. As always. We don't talk about uninteresting things. Very true, very true. Just sometimes. Well, and the first thing I want to chat about, maybe not so interesting but more of a cautionary warning to Coloradans, is that a lot of snow is about to hit the state during this Thanksgiving travel period. So expect some chaos.
[00:00:30] Like, I was just looking at a report from the National Weather Service. Up to like 48 plus inches of snow could land on some of these peaks that are in that area kind of southwest of Aspen. Most mountain ranges are going to be getting at least, you know, 12 inches of snow or more, probably more in that like two foot range. National Weather Service warning of very difficult to impossible travel on several major highways, including I-70. Eisenhower Tunnel is going to get 18 to 27 inches between Monday and Monday.
[00:01:00] Wednesday evening and Wednesday evening. This is when you worry about those out-of-towners coming to ski, you know? Right? Well, man, that's the thing. Thanksgiving holiday, like we're, they're expecting record-breaking travel this year. Yeah. And you're going to have a lot of people on the roads and probably a lot of issues. Oh, man. Vail Pass is supposed to get 15 to 24 inches. You get six inches on Vail Pass. You got cars spinning out, going off the road. Don't you just want to give some turkey to those highway workers who are not going to get to be at home?
[00:01:26] For real. Like, man. All the plows are going to be out in force just, I mean. Yeah. Yeah, probably a good weekend to chill and not go to the mountains. A great Thanksgiving that I picked to stay at home. Exactly. I'm doing a friend-giving, staying put. That's the way to do it. And I mean, even like Burthead Pass, 17 to 27 inches, like that's an awful road when there's snow on the ground.
[00:01:50] But I guess thinking of Thanksgiving, though, you just wrote about what some Colorado outdoor recreation enthusiasts love, right? So. Yeah, I do this every year. I reach out to outdoor athletes and advocates and just people in that outdoor space. And I ask them, you know, give me a specific place you're most grateful for or area, you know? It's always fun to see what comes back. What's the most interesting one this year?
[00:02:17] Yeah, yeah. Let's hear it. Okay, so one that came back. Shout out to San Luis Valley. Great outdoors. Great nonprofit there. This is from one of their project coordinators. Logan says, the Songrays, of course. The Songrays.
[00:02:32] Songrays are great. Right out his door there. Yeah, probably my favorite. The San Juans get so much buzz, but the Songrays really give you, I think, pretty much everything that the San Juans do. Yeah, well, and they're less crowded.
[00:02:44] Well, I guess maybe less crowded is not the right word because San Juans are very remote. It just seems like they don't get as much buzz. They don't. And they're so close to Colorado Springs, which is pretty wild to me. Like, it's like people are always looking west instead of looking south in Colorado Springs. And it's like hour and a half, two hours, and you're in some of the coolest mountains in the state.
[00:03:02] I think it's because the San Juans just, you know, have those iconic, like, Tellurides and, you know.
[00:03:07] Yeah, I mean, that's very, very fair because it's like what towns do you have down in the San Grit and Cristh.
[00:03:12] Like West and Crestone, right?
[00:03:14] For sure.
[00:03:14] Very small towns.
[00:03:16] But super cool.
[00:03:17] Yeah, and they don't really have, like, a tourism industry built around those towns to the same level that Telluride does.
[00:03:23] You know, it's like the locals live there, and that's about it.
[00:03:32] For a recreation industry office, right, that office in charge of enticing more economic, outdoor economic activity.
[00:03:40] Connor Hall leads that office.
[00:03:42] And I remember when he first stepped into that office, you know, what's the untapped, you know, place in San Luis Valley?
[00:03:48] Oh, yeah.
[00:03:49] And he's biased because he's from there.
[00:03:51] But it's true, right?
[00:03:52] I mean, there's just so much.
[00:03:54] San Luis Valley, too, is super cool just from, like, a geological standpoint, how it used to be, like, a lake.
[00:03:59] And then I think a dike wore down over years and years, and then water went out of it, and now you have the sand dunes.
[00:04:07] Yep.
[00:04:07] Which is pretty sweet.
[00:04:08] You got the sand dunes.
[00:04:09] You got a gator farm.
[00:04:10] You got a UFO watchtower.
[00:04:12] And you got the song race.
[00:04:13] I was telling the gator wrestling story over the weekend on a hike.
[00:04:17] We'll save it for another day every once in a while.
[00:04:19] That's right.
[00:04:19] But a little tease.
[00:04:21] Spencer took down a gator.
[00:04:24] Yeah, several.
[00:04:25] Several.
[00:04:25] Yeah.
[00:04:26] Humble brag.
[00:04:28] Humble brag.
[00:04:29] I mean, hey, it is.
[00:04:30] Someone asked me what the most memorable story that I've covered with Out There, Colorado was.
[00:04:34] And that was the answer.
[00:04:36] Yeah, the gator wrestling.
[00:04:36] Like, I mean, that was.
[00:04:38] I'm definitely hearing another podcast.
[00:04:40] Yeah, that's a, like I said, different story for a different day.
[00:04:43] But there is a place where you used to be able to, I think you still can, maybe by special appointment,
[00:04:49] wrestle alligators that are up to, like, 11 feet long in the San Luis Valley with their mouths open,
[00:04:55] able to bite you.
[00:04:56] Someone in our class got bit.
[00:04:57] No thanks.
[00:04:58] And ripped the gator off his hand.
[00:04:59] And it was a whole thing.
[00:05:01] Whoa.
[00:05:01] You literally walk in and they have dismembered thumbs from people that have, like, gotten bitten by the gators.
[00:05:06] And I mean, yeah.
[00:05:07] You just.
[00:05:07] Wow.
[00:05:07] You climb into the pits and wrestle these alligators.
[00:05:10] I'd been there and I don't remember the digits.
[00:05:13] Yeah, they make you look at it before you, as you're signing the waiver.
[00:05:16] They're like, this is literally, they're like, this is signing an important thing.
[00:05:19] You're signing your fingers away.
[00:05:20] Yeah, signing your fingers away.
[00:05:21] Yeah, different story for a different day.
[00:05:23] The alligator from Happy Gilmore.
[00:05:25] Yeah.
[00:05:25] They claimed was there.
[00:05:27] It is there.
[00:05:27] It is there, yeah.
[00:05:29] What's its name, I guess?
[00:05:30] I forget its name, but it's like, yeah, movie famous alligator.
[00:05:34] Yeah, right.
[00:05:35] Who took, wow, what's the character's name in Happy Gilmore?
[00:05:39] Took his hand.
[00:05:40] Chubbs, Chubbs.
[00:05:41] Chubbs, that's right.
[00:05:42] Yeah, took his hand.
[00:05:43] R.I.P. Chubbs.
[00:05:44] Yeah, R.I.P.
[00:05:46] So, that's a glimpse into the podcast, right?
[00:05:48] We're on one thing and we're going to another thing.
[00:05:51] So, back to the grateful list.
[00:05:53] Here's one you don't expect.
[00:05:55] Nathrop.
[00:05:56] Nathrop.
[00:05:57] Grateful for Nathrop.
[00:05:58] Tell us about that.
[00:05:59] I'll just read it.
[00:06:01] This is from an angler and runner.
[00:06:03] She's a fly athlete, as they call them.
[00:06:05] Katie Mazia in Eagle, Colorado.
[00:06:09] From Eagle, but says,
[00:06:10] Nathrop is one of the best adventure towns in the heart of the Rocky Mountains.
[00:06:13] I find myself visiting this area frequently in the summer for running and fishing challenges.
[00:06:17] You can catch five different species of trout in streams, creeks, and lakes,
[00:06:20] surrounded by strikingly beautiful, she's talking about the chalk cliffs here.
[00:06:25] Yeah, and the Collegiate Peaks.
[00:06:28] The old mining town of St. Elmo for a quick snack or souvenir.
[00:06:31] So many options for a quick sidetrack on the Continental Divide Trail or Colorado Trail.
[00:06:35] Yeah, right out there by BV.
[00:06:37] Yep.
[00:06:37] Right?
[00:06:37] Mount Princeton Hot Springs.
[00:06:38] Orient people.
[00:06:39] Right there, yeah.
[00:06:40] Yeah, I mean, hey, St. Elmo is probably one of the coolest ghost towns to visit.
[00:06:44] You know I've never been there.
[00:06:45] It's sweet.
[00:06:45] I mean, the thing is, it is like right on the road.
[00:06:48] That's the cool part about it.
[00:06:49] Go right through it.
[00:06:50] Like, a lot of these ghost towns are cool.
[00:06:52] They're more like ruins that you have to go and hike out to, which is very cool, and
[00:06:57] it's cool to see that history in itself.
[00:06:59] For sure.
[00:06:59] But just being able to drive up with the family if they're in town visiting and show
[00:07:04] them a little glimpse of what that mining town is like.
[00:07:08] It's pretty cool.
[00:07:09] Yeah.
[00:07:10] I would definitely recommend.
[00:07:11] And they have a general store that's open sometimes, some parts of the year.
[00:07:14] Cool season, yeah.
[00:07:14] Yeah.
[00:07:15] So very cool.
[00:07:15] And the chipmunks, right?
[00:07:16] I always hear about the chipmunks.
[00:07:17] Yeah, apparently you're able to feed chipmunks there, which anytime we mention that.
[00:07:21] We don't do that.
[00:07:22] Yeah, we don't.
[00:07:22] Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:23] Not supposed to feed wild animals.
[00:07:25] That's right.
[00:07:25] That's right.
[00:07:26] But yeah, it's a very, very cool little spot to visit.
[00:07:30] Got an owner of a bike shop in Trinidad, of course, picking Fisher's Peak in that state
[00:07:36] park coming along.
[00:07:37] Lots of trails coming online there.
[00:07:39] They're making quick progress on that place.
[00:07:41] Another part of the state that tends to get overlooked.
[00:07:43] For sure.
[00:07:44] Yeah.
[00:07:44] Trinidad area, right?
[00:07:46] It's like.
[00:07:46] Yeah.
[00:07:47] Yeah.
[00:07:47] Pretty.
[00:07:48] Yeah.
[00:07:49] I mean, I haven't heard of any of my friends being like, I'm going to go to Trinidad.
[00:07:53] No way.
[00:07:53] Yeah.
[00:07:54] But it's more affordable as far as I know.
[00:07:57] And I mean, I think that's why indeed this bike shop owner I'm talking about, he moved
[00:08:02] there for that very reason.
[00:08:04] Well, and Fisher's Peak State Park looks incredible.
[00:08:06] You've been there.
[00:08:06] Yeah.
[00:08:07] Right.
[00:08:07] Yeah.
[00:08:07] It's like that massive kind of monolithic mountain there.
[00:08:11] Overlooking everything.
[00:08:12] Yeah.
[00:08:12] Yeah.
[00:08:13] Very cool.
[00:08:13] And you can go to the top of that certain times of the year, right?
[00:08:16] On the east side of I-25.
[00:08:19] East side.
[00:08:19] There you go.
[00:08:20] That always trips me out.
[00:08:21] This big mountain on the east side of I-25.
[00:08:25] That is interesting.
[00:08:26] Yeah.
[00:08:26] Trinidad.
[00:08:27] Yeah.
[00:08:28] I need to get down there.
[00:08:28] I think there's an old like antique car museum or something like that down there too.
[00:08:32] I think that might be going through some changes.
[00:08:35] Is it?
[00:08:36] Yeah.
[00:08:36] There's something.
[00:08:38] Check that out before you go visit the car museum.
[00:08:40] Yeah.
[00:08:40] Well, either way, head down there.
[00:08:41] But you can go check out Fisher's Peak for sure.
[00:08:43] Yeah.
[00:08:43] I camped at the lake there, right?
[00:08:47] Trinidad Lake.
[00:08:48] Yeah.
[00:08:48] Nice little camping.
[00:08:50] Nice.
[00:08:50] Very cool.
[00:08:51] You can do a whole day on Fisher's Peak.
[00:08:52] Well, hey, State Park's going to be free to enter on Friday, right?
[00:08:56] Fresh Air Friday.
[00:08:57] Fresh Air Friday.
[00:08:58] So instead of Black Friday, go to State Park for free.
[00:09:01] That sounds a lot better, doesn't it?
[00:09:02] Yeah.
[00:09:03] Mueller State Park's a great one.
[00:09:04] If you're in Colorado Springs area, they'll probably have a little bit of snow up there.
[00:09:07] Yeah.
[00:09:08] Yeah.
[00:09:08] Might be able to walk around on some snowy trails.
[00:09:10] Very overlooked, you know, compared to like, you know, people flock to Golden Gate Canyon
[00:09:15] and to an extent Staunton State Park.
[00:09:18] I mean, just talking front range, but Mueller, yeah.
[00:09:21] I don't think, we know it here in Colorado Springs for sure, but I think people, like
[00:09:25] more Denver-ish areas.
[00:09:26] Yeah.
[00:09:27] People don't know about it as much, yeah.
[00:09:30] And you can, on your way through, you know, stop at the Donut Mill in Woodland Park.
[00:09:34] And there's a great, what I call it, like, destination brewery called Paradox.
[00:09:38] Oh, Paradox is amazing.
[00:09:40] Yeah.
[00:09:41] And their food's great.
[00:09:48] Ramen, which is like, yeah, you get like a cup of ramen noodles with like a nice, like
[00:09:53] little Mexican burrito twist.
[00:09:56] Yeah.
[00:09:56] Good tacos.
[00:09:57] Good.
[00:09:57] They have like a build-your-own quesadilla too, which is very good.
[00:10:01] And it's affordable, like compared to a lot of these other mountain town spots.
[00:10:04] Yeah.
[00:10:04] Yeah.
[00:10:04] Huge fan of Paradox.
[00:10:05] And the patio.
[00:10:07] I mean, just a wide open patio.
[00:10:10] Great view of Pikes Peak.
[00:10:11] Oh, yeah.
[00:10:11] Oh.
[00:10:12] It's fantastic.
[00:10:13] And it's popping.
[00:10:13] Like, it's always like very festive there on the weekends.
[00:10:16] Like, family's having fun, you know.
[00:10:18] I don't know if I've ever been in the winter.
[00:10:20] You know, I've stopped maybe once on the way back from skiing in the winter.
[00:10:23] Yeah.
[00:10:23] That would make sense.
[00:10:24] Usually go in the summer.
[00:10:25] But, yeah.
[00:10:26] Yeah.
[00:10:26] No, it's, yeah.
[00:10:27] There you go.
[00:10:28] A little road trip from Colorado Springs.
[00:10:30] You can pop up.
[00:10:30] Donut Mill.
[00:10:31] Hit the Donut Mill.
[00:10:32] Hit Paradox.
[00:10:33] Hit Mueller.
[00:10:34] Keep going to Cripple Creek.
[00:10:35] Check out what they got going on there.
[00:10:37] They're about to have the ice castles.
[00:10:39] Yep.
[00:10:39] Wind your way back.
[00:10:40] Man, I love the Donut Mill.
[00:10:42] Well, so, speaking of Colorado Springs, I saw a report from Realtor.com last week.
[00:10:47] Oh.
[00:10:48] Pretty wild.
[00:10:50] Oh, I know.
[00:10:50] I saw this.
[00:10:51] Yeah.
[00:10:51] And I think people are talking about it in Colorado Springs.
[00:10:54] I think it came out at the end of October.
[00:10:56] So, I was a little bit behind on this one.
[00:10:58] But, essentially, what Realtor.com was doing is they were looking at home prices around the country
[00:11:04] and then trying to determine what cities would be growing the fastest by 2033.
[00:11:09] So, they're looking at 2023 home prices, so, like, last year.
[00:11:13] Right.
[00:11:13] And that transition over that decade.
[00:11:16] And, essentially.
[00:11:17] Ten affordable cities poised to become million-dollar markets in a decade.
[00:11:21] Yeah.
[00:11:21] Yeah, exactly.
[00:11:22] Which is funny.
[00:11:23] Affordable.
[00:11:23] Yeah, right.
[00:11:24] They're calling it affordable.
[00:11:25] But, I mean, I guess on the scale of, you know, like, big cities like Colorado Springs,
[00:11:30] Denver are cheaper than San Diego and New York, I guess.
[00:11:35] Probably Chicago, right?
[00:11:35] Yeah.
[00:11:36] And to give a little bit of perspective, the affordable, like, you know, hand-finger quotes right now is what I'm doing.
[00:11:42] But the affordable cities, their 2023 median sale price is what they're looking at for a home,
[00:11:48] those fell between $454,000 and $695,000.
[00:11:53] So, call it affordable, call it not affordable.
[00:11:57] Whatever you say.
[00:11:59] Anyway, leave that point aside.
[00:12:01] The main punchline of this is that this list of cities that they came up with, all of these cities are projected to have home values above a million dollars in just 10 years.
[00:12:10] Colorado Springs being one of them.
[00:12:12] So, Colorado Springs was fourth on their list of rapid growth in terms of home prices.
[00:12:18] And basically, the way that they're coming up with this number is they're looking at the home sale price growth between 2014 and 2019.
[00:12:27] Basically trying to skip including a recession and the pandemic, as those are kind of anomalies, we can call them.
[00:12:35] And essentially what they said is the median home price in Colorado Springs right now is $454,673.
[00:12:43] They expect that to climb to $1,019,000 by 2033.
[00:12:49] So, that's a 124% increase in home value in Colorado Springs in just 10 years.
[00:12:56] So, pretty wild when you think about how fast that growth is.
[00:13:01] You know, like, that's faster growth.
[00:13:02] I noticed on the list, if I'm not mistaken, like, the current median is the lowest of the 10 cities that they list.
[00:13:11] Yeah, in Colorado Springs.
[00:13:12] Denver also on the list.
[00:13:14] That's right.
[00:13:14] Yeah.
[00:13:15] Yeah, Denver, the median home value or home sale price in 2023 was $547,000.
[00:13:23] Almost $548,000.
[00:13:25] And they expect that to be close to $1.3 million by 2033.
[00:13:29] So, another spot where, I mean, people are always talking about how fast home prices are rising around Colorado.
[00:13:36] And, I mean, at this point, obviously this report is just speculative, right?
[00:13:40] There's no guarantee that this happens.
[00:13:42] But if that comes to fruition, that's wild in terms of just accessibility, in terms of everything.
[00:13:48] It's like, you know, if you're just living in Colorado right now and you see that kind of thing, how does that settle with you?
[00:13:56] You know what I mean?
[00:13:57] Does that freak you out?
[00:13:58] It's kind of scary.
[00:13:59] I mean, I would imagine a lot of homeowners are pretty happy about that in a way.
[00:14:03] But, I mean...
[00:14:04] I'm a homeowner and I can't imagine.
[00:14:06] Yeah, right.
[00:14:07] I just...
[00:14:08] Yeah, and on the flip side, it is kind of freaky because it is one of those things where it just makes it to where it's like you probably have a ton of people in Colorado that are not homeowners, obviously.
[00:14:17] They're probably wanting to buy a home.
[00:14:18] And they see a number like that and it's kind of like lights this fire and this pressure in a sense where it's like the longer you wait, you know, it's...
[00:14:28] And as a homeowner, does your head kind of go to where am I going to be able...
[00:14:32] You know, I'm going to outgrow this home.
[00:14:35] Where am I...
[00:14:35] Can I go anywhere else after that?
[00:14:37] Yeah, exactly.
[00:14:38] Right.
[00:14:38] It's like...
[00:14:40] Yeah.
[00:14:41] Like, I mean, that's the way I was looking at it, really.
[00:14:44] It was like, dang, like you're going to...
[00:14:45] Like people are going to be stuck in these homes in a sense because it's like...
[00:14:48] Yeah.
[00:14:49] Especially if they have that low interest rate, right?
[00:14:51] Like purchased in the last few years.
[00:14:54] There's a broad philosophical conversation to be had about housing probably, but is that where we want to go on this podcast?
[00:15:02] I don't know.
[00:15:05] I would say no.
[00:15:07] I would say no.
[00:15:07] We're just a couple of guys talking about the outdoors.
[00:15:10] I don't know enough about housing.
[00:15:13] I just read this report.
[00:15:16] You want the next Grateful Place?
[00:15:17] Yeah, give us another Grateful Place.
[00:15:19] It's the San Juans here from a mountain runner.
[00:15:22] San Juans and specifically the Wemenouche Wilderness.
[00:15:27] And who's got...
[00:15:27] What run is that?
[00:15:28] This is Erin Tun.
[00:15:29] Erin Tun.
[00:15:29] Yep.
[00:15:30] Known for her FKTs.
[00:15:32] Fastest known times.
[00:15:33] Yep.
[00:15:33] She gets after it.
[00:15:35] And she says specifically a sub-range called the Grenadiers.
[00:15:39] Have you heard of them?
[00:15:41] I have.
[00:15:41] These are spectacular peaks.
[00:15:42] I've heard of the Wemenouche Wilderness, but have not heard of the Grenadiers.
[00:15:46] She talks about...
[00:15:47] Is it Vestal?
[00:15:48] Yeah.
[00:15:48] Vestal Peak.
[00:15:49] That is a stunning mountain.
[00:15:50] Which there's this ridge called...
[00:15:52] Right?
[00:15:53] It's called Wham Ridge, as it's known.
[00:15:55] And it resembles, as she calls it, perfectly.
[00:15:57] Which resembles a giant skateboard ramp.
[00:16:00] Right?
[00:16:01] And it really does.
[00:16:02] It's like...
[00:16:03] It's a wild-looking mountain.
[00:16:05] Yeah, and Arrow Peak's right there, too.
[00:16:06] That's right.
[00:16:07] Arrow, Vestal.
[00:16:08] Yeah.
[00:16:09] And the Trinities.
[00:16:11] Yeah.
[00:16:12] That's...
[00:16:12] Yeah.
[00:16:13] Yeah, that's some great country in there.
[00:16:16] Yeah.
[00:16:16] And that's all really remote and pretty difficult to get into.
[00:16:19] Very remote.
[00:16:19] Yeah.
[00:16:20] Like, especially when you're looking at, like, reading what you wrote here, how she's on
[00:16:25] a quest to climb the state's 100 highest peaks.
[00:16:28] Yeah.
[00:16:29] And you see that report from a lot of people where some of those mountains are just very
[00:16:32] remote.
[00:16:32] And the hike in itself is, you know...
[00:16:35] You gotta want it.
[00:16:35] ...most 10 miles backpacking, rugged terrain.
[00:16:38] Yeah.
[00:16:38] You gotta want it.
[00:16:39] Yeah, that is pretty wild.
[00:16:40] I'm glad she mentioned Vestal, though, because that's just...
[00:16:43] When you see that mountain, it just stays in your imagination.
[00:16:46] It stays in your mind.
[00:16:47] Well, and so speaking of...
[00:16:49] Crazy mountain.
[00:16:49] ...speaking of unique spots that really stay in your mind, you've got some news about the
[00:16:53] paint mines.
[00:16:54] Sure.
[00:16:54] Right?
[00:16:54] With paint mines, they're up in Calhan, Colorado, 45 minutes from Colorado Springs, known
[00:17:00] for their colorful rock formations, also known for a lot of people crowding it.
[00:17:04] Yeah.
[00:17:04] And doing some damage to the area in recent years, to be honest, just by irresponsible use.
[00:17:08] So, yeah.
[00:17:08] COVID really opened up the floodgates.
[00:17:10] Yeah.
[00:17:10] A lot more...
[00:17:11] I mean, if people didn't know about paint mines, they sure learned about it in 2020
[00:17:15] when everyone's posting on Instagram, you know, hidden gems of Colorado.
[00:17:20] And paint mines is overseen by El Paso County.
[00:17:23] The county manages that land.
[00:17:26] Home of Colorado Springs.
[00:17:27] That's right.
[00:17:27] Yep.
[00:17:29] In El Paso County, it's kind of a fascinating park because, like, you think about it, they
[00:17:34] manage things as far east as Calhan paint mines.
[00:17:40] As far north as a beautiful Santa Fe open space in Palmer Lake, you know?
[00:17:49] As far south as Fountain, you know, Fountain Creek Regional Park there.
[00:17:53] That's all to say they're very stretched, right?
[00:17:55] Yeah.
[00:17:56] And the paint mines has come up on their, you know, high priority list, obviously, to address
[00:18:01] what you were just talking about.
[00:18:03] And what this master plan found is, like, it's really a result of just these, this maze
[00:18:09] of trails, social trails, just aimlessly wandering up these rocks.
[00:18:16] Fragile rocks.
[00:18:17] Fragile.
[00:18:18] Ancient, beautiful hoodoos, you know.
[00:18:21] If you get a chance to, I mean, read the history in the master plan, that's really fascinating.
[00:18:25] Like, the geologic history, the human history really puts into perspective of just how, like,
[00:18:29] special that place is.
[00:18:30] I mean, it's been thousands of years, right?
[00:18:32] Like, there's, like, artifacts that date back.
[00:18:34] Like, some of the oldest artifacts found in Colorado, I think, are there.
[00:18:38] Also, the ecological diversity there is something that gets talked about a lot, where it's, like,
[00:18:43] this, like, very unique space where you kind of have this almost, like, desert environment
[00:18:48] meeting, like, all sorts of things.
[00:18:51] Like, it's, yeah, it's wild.
[00:18:52] It's a bizarre place.
[00:18:53] Yeah, I was looking up to just see how far back they think human occupation, and indeed,
[00:19:01] occupation, I use that word because they think, like, you know, indigenous people, like, would
[00:19:06] stay there, you know.
[00:19:07] Like, it was a place for shelter, and, you know.
[00:19:09] I heard it was used in hunting.
[00:19:11] Yeah.
[00:19:11] Like, trapping animals, where you kind of push them down into this gully and of sorts,
[00:19:15] and then you're able to, able to make or kill them that way.
[00:19:18] Human connection is early as 7,000 B.C.
[00:19:20] Dang.
[00:19:21] Isn't that wild?
[00:19:22] That's incredible.
[00:19:22] So, just to think about, you know, just the deep time.
[00:19:25] 9,000 years.
[00:19:26] Right.
[00:19:27] Millions of years of geologic history, obviously.
[00:19:29] Yeah.
[00:19:29] But anyway, yeah, I mean, obviously, there's those people who, unfortunately, want to put
[00:19:36] on a social media spectacle, and they jump around the rocks, and those are, for sure,
[00:19:41] the bad actors, right?
[00:19:42] And then there's just, like, mostly people, like you and me, who walk around there and follow
[00:19:47] a path that looks like a path, and all of a sudden find themselves on very fragile terrain,
[00:19:53] you know?
[00:19:54] Yeah.
[00:19:54] And I mean, it's been, it's probably been, like, eight years since I've been there, I think.
[00:19:58] It's been a while.
[00:19:58] Eight or nine years.
[00:19:59] Yeah, for me.
[00:19:59] To provide a little context for people that haven't been there, it's essentially like a
[00:20:05] dirt parking lot.
[00:20:06] I think there's a couple porta-potties out there, or at least when I was there.
[00:20:09] Like, it's very undeveloped.
[00:20:11] And there are signs that are, like, stay off the rocks.
[00:20:14] Fencing.
[00:20:14] Yeah.
[00:20:15] And the fencing's relatively new, too, right?
[00:20:17] That's right.
[00:20:17] That's within the last few years.
[00:20:18] And more, yeah.
[00:20:19] Yeah, more around the boundaries is my understanding.
[00:20:21] Yeah.
[00:20:21] Yeah.
[00:20:21] And it's one of those things where it's, like, there's signage, but, like, it's not developed
[00:20:29] to the same level, given how popular it is.
[00:20:31] It's not developed to the same level that a lot of these other places are developed.
[00:20:35] Right.
[00:20:35] Yeah.
[00:20:35] Yeah, it makes sense.
[00:20:36] I mean, you get a lot of people there.
[00:20:37] I think it's one of those things where ignorance, in a way, like, just not knowing what they're
[00:20:44] Innocent or not.
[00:20:45] Yeah.
[00:20:45] Yeah.
[00:20:45] It's like, I think that leads to a lot of people kind of getting off the trail and causing
[00:20:50] permanent damage to these rocks.
[00:20:52] And obviously, you do have bad actors that are, like, blatantly trying to climb on top
[00:20:56] of things.
[00:20:56] Yeah.
[00:20:56] Yeah.
[00:20:57] And obviously, you can't do that.
[00:20:58] But the master, so the master plan tries to control that, right?
[00:21:01] Kind of some of the most, like, notable elements.
[00:21:03] Like, it envisions, you know, really a series of boardwalks keeping people above that ground
[00:21:08] that you know gets real muddy.
[00:21:10] Low fencing chain link barriers that keep people clearly, very clearly away from some of those
[00:21:16] sensitive formations.
[00:21:18] So, you know, there's people here locally who say that is absolutely the right thing.
[00:21:23] You see these kind of elements in, like, national parks, right?
[00:21:26] And whatnot.
[00:21:27] And then there's other people who, like, have known this place as it is for years, decades,
[00:21:34] and kind of see, like, this engineered presence of man coming to this wild place, right?
[00:21:40] So, there's kind of an interesting conversation of what's necessary, you know, and maybe what's
[00:21:46] unfortunately necessary, right?
[00:21:49] After 9,000 years.
[00:21:51] That's the crazy thing.
[00:21:52] And then parking lots, you know, really formalizing those parking lots and maybe a small visitor
[00:21:57] center down the line.
[00:22:00] But then, yeah, you know, funding.
[00:22:01] We talked about that strapped county parks department that really has its hands full.
[00:22:06] And a lot of people wonder about, you know, funding and if this all can be achieved.
[00:22:12] I've heard people talk about, you know, there's a similar history at Florissant fossil beds,
[00:22:17] right?
[00:22:17] Right.
[00:22:18] And those stumps that became under threat.
[00:22:20] Gosh, is that going back to, like, the 50s or 60s or something like that?
[00:22:23] When did that become a national monument?
[00:22:25] It's petrified redwoods, right?
[00:22:27] Yeah.
[00:22:27] People don't realize redwoods used to be in Colorado.
[00:22:29] It's pretty crazy.
[00:22:30] It is such a trip every time.
[00:22:31] Yeah.
[00:22:31] I think what happened, right, Pike's Peak would have exploded, right, with a volcanic eruption
[00:22:35] or something along the lines of that.
[00:22:37] I don't know if it was Pike's Peak, but for sure, yeah.
[00:22:39] Some sort of volcanic eruption covered it, petrified these redwood stumps, essentially.
[00:22:44] Yeah.
[00:22:44] And people were stealing petrified wood, and I think that's why they...
[00:22:49] What led to the national monument designation.
[00:22:52] There's people...
[00:22:52] I hear people kind of bringing that up as a local kind of history lesson that comes to
[00:22:57] mind when they think about what should happen to the paint mines, you know?
[00:23:00] Well, I mean, some of the numbers behind the paint mines are also pretty wild.
[00:23:04] I'm reading here from your reporting.
[00:23:05] Yeah.
[00:23:06] Yeah.
[00:23:06] Quoting Seth, the draft master plan estimates costs running around $4.7 million with another
[00:23:14] $2 million potentially for a visitor center.
[00:23:17] Right.
[00:23:17] Yeah.
[00:23:18] And, you know, this stuff, there's a lot of those elements that would happen over time,
[00:23:22] but they're very much focused right away on kind of those boardwalks and some of those
[00:23:28] proposed low barrier, low barriers, you know, chain link posts and fencing, you know.
[00:23:34] How can we do the most to mitigate...
[00:23:36] Right.
[00:23:36] Right now.
[00:23:37] ...mitigate concerns right now, yeah.
[00:23:38] It makes sense.
[00:23:39] I mean...
[00:23:40] Yeah.
[00:23:40] Sadly, but I mean...
[00:23:41] Interesting what the paint mines might look like here in a couple of years.
[00:23:46] It's like that line from...
[00:23:47] What was it?
[00:23:48] Big Yellow Taxi.
[00:23:49] They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.
[00:23:52] Yeah, man.
[00:23:53] So it goes.
[00:23:53] What is it?
[00:23:54] 63,000 visitors, they were thinking in 2023?
[00:23:56] I think something like that.
[00:23:57] Is that what?
[00:23:57] I think it's at the end of that.
[00:23:58] You probably got it pulled up.
[00:24:00] That's a lot of people, and I think there were probably a lot more in 2020, you know?
[00:24:03] Yeah.
[00:24:05] Yeah, and it's interesting too because, like, one thing you tend to see is a lot of these
[00:24:09] spots kind of go in and out of their, like, cool factor, so to speak, where it's like
[00:24:15] everyone goes to this spot.
[00:24:16] Paint Mines is not a spot where a lot of people probably go back to on a regular basis.
[00:24:21] Remote enough.
[00:24:21] Yeah.
[00:24:21] It's remote.
[00:24:22] It's not huge.
[00:24:22] It's kind of one of those things you see once and you're like, okay, maybe I'll see that
[00:24:26] again in the future.
[00:24:27] Yeah.
[00:24:28] It's not like there's a bunch of trails you got to try.
[00:24:30] You're right.
[00:24:31] Yeah, exactly.
[00:24:32] It's a one.
[00:24:32] So it's one of those, that's kind of one of the things that I'm curious about is it's
[00:24:35] like, is this influx of visitation going to continue, you know?
[00:24:39] I mean, you're always going to have people that are interested in it, but is it going
[00:24:43] to, you know, are we going to keep seeing those 2020 numbers?
[00:24:46] Yeah.
[00:24:46] Well, I would venture to guess that I think, is it 63,000 that they said in 2023?
[00:24:51] You see that in there at the bottom?
[00:24:53] Yeah.
[00:24:53] Yeah.
[00:24:53] Last year, the park saw an estimated 63,419 visitors.
[00:24:58] That's got to be down from 2020.
[00:25:00] Just like we've seen, you know, the 14ers report that found way less people even since 2020,
[00:25:05] you know?
[00:25:06] Yeah.
[00:25:06] Way less people.
[00:25:06] Things are coming back to some baseline, whether that's a new baseline, you know?
[00:25:11] But anyway.
[00:25:12] Either way.
[00:25:13] So one other thing that I wanted to chat about on this episode of the Out There Colorado podcast,
[00:25:19] you did some very in-depth reporting on Jim Bishop, and you have over the years, right?
[00:25:25] And Jim Bishop, known for being the man pretty much solely behind the construction of Bishop
[00:25:31] Castle.
[00:25:32] Yep.
[00:25:32] Massive, literally, like, looks like a castle out by Rye.
[00:25:36] Climbs to, I think, like, what, 150 feet with one of the towers or something, 160 feet.
[00:25:41] Has a giant, beautiful stained glass, like, cathedral hall.
[00:25:44] Yeah.
[00:25:45] But the man behind it recently passed away at 80.
[00:25:49] Yep.
[00:25:49] And very interesting man, very interesting life, and you know a lot about that.
[00:25:53] So tell us a little bit about Jim Bishop.
[00:25:55] I have written about some characters in Colorado, and there's not one quite like Jim Bishop, man.
[00:26:01] I mean, just quite a life.
[00:26:04] You know, starting in his childhood, pretty sickly kid growing up there in Pueblo in a
[00:26:10] poor family, and, you know, became a bodybuilder early on.
[00:26:17] I think it's really funny, you know, to think about, like, how he was able to haul all that
[00:26:21] rock later in life.
[00:26:22] He was getting strong in the gym early on when that was pretty taboo, you know.
[00:26:26] I think your quote was he was curling 150-pound dumbbells.
[00:26:29] Yeah, with a single arm, apparently.
[00:26:30] He was putting on shows with 150.
[00:26:32] 150 pounds.
[00:26:33] That's crazy.
[00:26:34] Explaining how he was able to haul all that rock, right?
[00:26:38] But, yeah, you know, so it started with him just building this quiet cottage that was
[00:26:42] going to be for him and his wife, Phoebe, his wife of 50 years, love of his life.
[00:26:47] And it started off as this cottage, and, you know, onlookers thought, hey, that kind of
[00:26:54] looked like a castle, that arching, you know, cottage.
[00:26:56] And so he took on this challenge, as it was described to me, of just kind of stacking it
[00:26:59] up, seeing how far he could go.
[00:27:01] And he went, obviously, quite very far.
[00:27:06] And over 50-plus years.
[00:27:07] Yeah.
[00:27:09] Right.
[00:27:09] Well, he started in 1969, and it was pretty much in place, I was told, like early, mid-70s.
[00:27:16] Oh, really?
[00:27:16] As we know it now.
[00:27:17] Yeah.
[00:27:18] Dang.
[00:27:19] He kept going, though.
[00:27:21] Day and night.
[00:27:21] Day and night.
[00:27:22] And, I mean, when we say obsession, like truly obsession.
[00:27:27] His son, you know, one of the things he told me was, you know, physically, it made my dad
[00:27:33] stronger.
[00:27:34] Mentally, it turned him into somewhat of a maniac, right?
[00:27:37] So we've all, you know, for people who know Bishop Castle, they probably know Jim Bishop
[00:27:42] as the guy who was ranting crazy stuff outside the castle, conspiracy-fueled rages.
[00:27:50] But he was a complicated guy.
[00:27:52] I mean, there was, you know, as his kids explained to me, a lot of sensitive aspects to him, you
[00:28:01] know?
[00:28:01] And especially when it came to, you know, talk about a push toward his mind deteriorating.
[00:28:08] In 1988, he's clearing trees around that property.
[00:28:14] And his son, four years old, is found under the wreckage in kind of a complicated logging
[00:28:20] accident and died.
[00:28:21] His four-year-old son, Roy.
[00:28:22] That's right.
[00:28:23] So, I mean, you know, it's easy to imagine kind of losing it a little bit, right?
[00:28:30] And he got real fed up with government regulations, you know, that were going on around that castle.
[00:28:37] No one's surprised that there's been county calling for code infringements there, you know,
[00:28:44] tax issues.
[00:28:45] He really became anti-government.
[00:28:46] And you heard it there at the castle.
[00:28:49] And all the while, I mean, it weighed on his family quite a bit, you know?
[00:28:54] But in the end, you know, in talking with his kids after his death this week, you know,
[00:29:01] there's some complex appreciation for, like, what he was able to achieve and what he's left
[00:29:08] behind for Colorado and those kids, you know?
[00:29:11] So, one of them who's going to, you know, for now continuing things on, Daniel, his son Daniel,
[00:29:16] overseeing that property.
[00:29:17] So, yeah.
[00:29:18] Well, and I think the part of the story or one of the parts of your coverage of him that really hit me
[00:29:24] the hardest was kind of his motivation for creating this castle as a free attraction
[00:29:30] because he grew up, right, from a poor background in Pueblo
[00:29:35] and couldn't necessarily take advantage of the paid attractions.
[00:29:38] Like, I think it was Seven Falls one that you mentioned where there's a fee associated with that.
[00:29:43] Yeah.
[00:29:44] And being from Pueblo and in a poor family, like, he couldn't go and enjoy those things.
[00:29:50] So, yeah.
[00:29:51] Yeah, I think that was the thing where it's like this part of this dream to build this castle,
[00:29:57] you know, it stems from providing something that everyone can enjoy.
[00:30:02] That's right.
[00:30:02] In a beautiful place and just something that is truly one of a kind.
[00:30:06] Like, there is nothing like that in America.
[00:30:08] It looks like something like Disney World, doesn't it?
[00:30:10] Yeah.
[00:30:10] Yeah.
[00:30:10] Yeah.
[00:30:11] It's one of those things where it's like you see photos of it,
[00:30:14] but just walking around it and seeing the labor that had to go into building it
[00:30:19] and just the attention to detail and even the little, like, odd aspects of it
[00:30:23] and just, like, it is just one of those things that's just truly incredible.
[00:30:28] Like, everyone should go check it out.
[00:30:30] Quite a legacy.
[00:30:30] Yeah.
[00:30:31] And, yeah.
[00:30:33] I hope that it sticks around in the same capacity where it's free to visit
[00:30:36] and where it's one of those things that's maintained.
[00:30:39] There are some sketchy higher stretches.
[00:30:41] For sure.
[00:30:42] You can understand the code infringements, right?
[00:30:44] I mean, there's a fire-breathing dragon on top of it.
[00:30:46] Yeah.
[00:30:47] Yeah.
[00:30:47] But, yeah, like, walking around on top, it's almost like there's, like,
[00:30:52] a little wall that's, like, about the height of your ankles.
[00:30:56] It's almost like it's, like –
[00:30:57] Those iron pathways between towers, man.
[00:31:00] Yeah.
[00:31:00] Nope.
[00:31:00] Nope.
[00:31:01] There's some sketchy parts of it for sure.
[00:31:03] I think everyone's familiar with that.
[00:31:06] Yeah.
[00:31:06] The coding situation.
[00:31:08] Yeah.
[00:31:08] Yeah.
[00:31:08] Yeah.
[00:31:09] I mean, I think –
[00:31:10] I hope when people are there, like, they just reflect on the amazing story
[00:31:17] that was Jim Bishop, you know, for all of his faults
[00:31:20] and for all of his clear genius, you know,
[00:31:27] and the sacrifice, clearly, that went into it.
[00:31:30] And, man, bless his wife.
[00:31:31] You know, I talked with his wife, Phoebe, before her death in 2018,
[00:31:37] who was just a big advocate for him and, you know,
[00:31:42] went to great lengths to calm him down and ease his mind, you know.
[00:31:47] A guy for whom peace was pretty hard to find, you know, later in his life.
[00:31:51] And sure enough, he was still trying to haul rock, you know,
[00:31:53] I was told, like, four years ago.
[00:31:54] Yeah.
[00:31:55] Even amid Parkinson's disease, you know,
[00:31:57] his son finally had to take the keys away.
[00:31:59] But a man obsessed, you know.
[00:32:02] And we all get to enjoy that, what he created, you know.
[00:32:04] Yeah, I mean, he left, yeah, say whatever about Jim Bishop,
[00:32:08] but he left behind an attraction that I think so many countless people
[00:32:13] have enjoyed over the years and will continue to enjoy.
[00:32:15] Yeah.
[00:32:16] And it is that free attraction that's accessible to everybody.
[00:32:18] That's right.
[00:32:19] So.
[00:32:19] Yep.
[00:32:20] Cool.
[00:32:21] We didn't finish the thankful list.
[00:32:23] Oh, yeah.
[00:32:23] You want to run them down real quick?
[00:32:25] Yeah, give us, go ahead and end on a happier note here.
[00:32:28] There's kind of been a fun structure to this podcast.
[00:32:30] Yeah.
[00:32:30] Like, we're in and out of this list, you know,
[00:32:32] at the Thanksgiving season.
[00:32:33] Okay, we'll close it out with this.
[00:32:37] American Basin in the San Juans.
[00:32:40] Known for wildflowers.
[00:32:41] For sure.
[00:32:41] Lake Pueblo for its year-round mountain biking.
[00:32:46] Man, wow.
[00:32:47] Mostly year-round.
[00:32:47] Mountain biking.
[00:32:48] That's interesting.
[00:32:48] I love Lake Pueblo.
[00:32:50] Just boating out there.
[00:32:51] Like, it's fun.
[00:32:52] Front range spot.
[00:32:53] Like, yeah, you can rent a boat.
[00:32:55] And I don't know if many people know about the trail riding out there, man.
[00:32:59] Again, yeah, you can picture it.
[00:33:00] I mean, that part of the state, fairly mild.
[00:33:04] You know, you can just about ride year-round out there.
[00:33:08] Yeah.
[00:33:09] And it's great single track through those slot canyons in there.
[00:33:11] Nice.
[00:33:13] Colorado Trail.
[00:33:15] Classic.
[00:33:17] Specifically, the Elk Creek drainage all the way to Cataract Lake.
[00:33:21] Oh, yeah.
[00:33:21] Cataract Lake is supposed to be beautiful.
[00:33:22] Do you know about that?
[00:33:23] Yeah, I've seen photos of it.
[00:33:24] I haven't been there.
[00:33:25] And then a local shout-out for North Cheyenne Canyon and Colorado Springs.
[00:33:29] North Cheyenne Canyon.
[00:33:30] Yeah.
[00:33:31] I was up there this weekend enjoying the new Daniels Pass, or relatively new Daniels Pass
[00:33:35] Trail.
[00:33:35] So, hiking it for the first time.
[00:33:37] I've ran it before, but hiking it, you know, it's like, it makes getting up to Mount Muskoko
[00:33:42] very enjoyable and fun.
[00:33:43] And, I mean, it's just another way to get up there and see that, even the south side of
[00:33:47] the canyon.
[00:33:48] Yeah.
[00:33:48] That's what I like.
[00:33:49] You can't really-
[00:33:49] Looking up to Cheyenne Mountain.
[00:33:50] Yeah.
[00:33:51] Yeah.
[00:33:51] Beautiful.
[00:33:52] And a great showcase of Colorado Springs in that you are in such a wild-feeling place.
[00:33:56] Mm-hmm.
[00:33:56] And then in five, ten minutes, you're having a beer at Bristol.
[00:34:00] Oh, yeah.
[00:34:00] And from that summit rock on Mount Muskoka, you can look down and it's like, you see Pikes
[00:34:04] Peak behind you.
[00:34:05] You see a massive canyon on one side with big cliff drops, like be safe if you're up
[00:34:09] there.
[00:34:09] Yeah.
[00:34:10] And then you, yeah, see the whole city.
[00:34:12] Yeah.
[00:34:12] You know, you look down and see the Broadmoor, you see downtown.
[00:34:15] Very cool area.
[00:34:16] Good place to be thankful for.
[00:34:17] Yeah.
[00:34:17] Yeah.
[00:34:18] I think I would agree with that.
[00:34:19] Maybe that's what, maybe that's one of the spots I'm most thankful for this year.
[00:34:22] There you go.
[00:34:24] But yeah.
[00:34:24] So, hey, we covered a lot today.
[00:34:25] Yeah, we did.
[00:34:26] I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Out There Colorado podcast.
[00:34:30] One last time, I am Spencer.
[00:34:31] And I'm Seth.
[00:34:32] And we will see you soon.
[00:34:34] See you, folks.
[00:34:35] I guess not see you soon.
[00:34:36] You'll hear from us soon.
[00:34:37] We'll be back.
[00:34:38] Have fun out there.
[00:34:39] Bye.
[00:34:39] Bye.