In this episode of the OutThere Colorado Podcast, Spencer and Seth chat about a cool oppurtunity to give caving a try, the latest release of Colorado's endangered places, a 'can't-miss' natural spectacle, and the uncertain fate of a local species.
[00:00:09] Welcome to the OutThere Colorado Podcast. I'm Ero Spencer and I am here with host Seth. Hey, hey! And we once again have a lot of interesting Colorado stuff to bring you. I gotta come up with another like, you know, intro. Like I either say, it's like I always feel awkward with hey, hey, hey, hello. Howdy. Hi. Whip out the howdy. Maybe that's a little more on brand. Howdy. Yeah, that's a nice, nice Colorado word. It's something I actually wrote a piece one time.
[00:00:39] titled, Don't Forget the Howdy, talking about how you should be friendly to people on trails during COVID when everyone was stressed out and in masks on trails. And everyone was not howdy-ing. Yelling at people about masks on trails, etc. But yeah. Four days. Yeah, interesting times for sure. But yeah, during the time of COVID actually, I guess the first thing to chat about today, kind of on that tail end of the COVID,
[00:01:09] COVID pandemic, I did a really, really fun caving tour in Colorado Springs. And it was one of those things where me and a friend went and did this tour. And then the next week, it was at Cave of the Winds. It was called the Caving 101 Tour. It was like the next week or like next week or so, they removed that tour from their offerings. I think, you know, it's just maybe the interest wasn't there at the time or something or the staff wasn't there. I don't know. Got it at the nick of time. Lucky you, huh?
[00:01:38] But yeah, it was one of the coolest things I've ever done in Colorado. And then, yeah, all of a sudden, it was just kind of off the menu, so to speak. And had this really cool piece that I wrote about it, but couldn't really promote it because this tour was gone and people couldn't do it. Until now? Until now. So, you know, two years later or so, and they might have had this on their site for a little bit, but just noticed it earlier this week.
[00:02:03] Cave of the Winds now offers the Expedition Tour, which, as described on their site, it says, explore the wild, undeveloped depths of Cave of the Winds on this two to three hour guided tour that involves an assortment of crawling and climbing through wet and muddy passages of various sizes. And let me tell you. Sounds like your idea of fun for sure. Yeah. It does sound fun for me.
[00:02:27] Yeah, and I've been caving like this for a few times now, but this was my first time that I've ever been caving. And legitimate caving, like not going in a cave, but like crawling on your hands and knees or stomach just through these really narrow passageways. And I got to tell you, it was an absolute blast.
[00:02:49] I strongly, strongly recommend it for, or highly recommend it for anyone who has a mild interest in that caving experience. It's just something, you know, you can't really do everywhere. I was going to say, like, there's not really a chance to kind of break into it, so to speak, right? Like in a way that, you know, for people who haven't done it feels kind of safe. I mean, like there's the fairy caves, right? In Glenwood. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, that you're kind of like going in and looking at the, you know, the formations, which it is super cool.
[00:03:18] I mean, I've done that one too, and that's, I mean, that's cool. But it is still like a walking tour. Is it? Yeah, at least as far as- I thought there was a crawl. They might offer a crawl of some sort. The one I did was a walking tour. Okay, yeah. But yeah, I mean, this one, it's really, it's interesting because it's one of those things where it's like the time that we showed up.
[00:03:35] So there were probably, you know, 10 people in our group or so, and so a small group, but he starts talking, the guide starts talking about kind of about what we'll be doing that day. And he's a big guy. Like this guide's probably, you know, six, three, you know, like big dude. That's all to say, even if you're a big dude, there's a chance for you still, huh? Yeah, exactly. Well, that's the thing.
[00:04:02] So I'm sitting there, like, you know, running a lot of the time and I'm 5'10", so pretty scrawny, so to speak. And I'm like, okay, if this guy can fit through what we're doing, I can fit through what we're doing too. Yep. It's going to be okay. Yep. But he starts like describing the situation and immediately before the tour even started, one person was like, I have somewhere else I need to be and just left. Not even looking at their phone or anything.
[00:04:28] And then just all of a sudden he's like, they felt like they had to like come up with an excuse, right? They couldn't just own up, not for me. Yeah. It was like he was like, right after he was like, there will be a spot where you have to kind of shift your shoulders around and crawl through this tight space. And immediately she's kind of like wide in the face and just like, I have somewhere else I need to be, need to get out of here. And then she just left. So, I mean, hopefully nothing was wrong or anything, but it seemed like. Hey, no one's going to shame you. It's all right.
[00:04:55] It seemed like that description itself was a little bit of a claustrophobic, claustrophobia-inducing thing. And, I mean, the tour itself kind of is, we'll say. I was going to say, yeah. Still not exactly for everybody, maybe. Yeah. Like the little warning on the site says, please expect there to be open exposure, sheer drop-offs, tight spaces, ropes and ladders, and muddy floors. And all of those things, assuming that the tour that I went on two years ago is the same tour and it's just been kind of rebranded. Yeah. I mean, all those things held true.
[00:05:25] Like there were parts where you kind of have to do some climbing stim moves and like scoot your way down a little drop area and like definitely tight spaces. You know, you're going head first to the point where you're like, how do shoes even fit through this little tight space? Like some of the videos we got, there's one where it's this gentleman just, you know, getting on the ground and crawling through it. You just see his shoes just kind of disappear. Ooh. Yeah. But yeah, and it was muddy. It was very muddy. We definitely got dirty. Wear your worst clothes.
[00:05:54] Yeah, wear your worst clothes. And it is one of those things where like the caving community, you know, they go through a lot and really put a lot of effort into protecting caves. Yeah. For good reason too. Like, you know, I mean, formations in these caves take thousands of years to form, if not more, you know, like a long, long time to form. And they're very fragile. The ecosystem's extremely fragile to the point where it's like when you're in a cave that's not like a commercial cave, right?
[00:06:24] It's like everyone's kind of bringing bags to even prevent crumbs from their food from dropping on the ground and bottles to pee in and things like that. So it's one of those things where a very fragile ecosystem, very dangerous too, right? Like you get hurt in a cave, you know, there's no cell connection. And also you're dealing with the white nose syndrome. It's kind of plaguing the bat communities where it's killing a lot of these bat communities off.
[00:06:51] So a lot of reasons for these caves to be very guarded and protected. Yeah. Explaining why quite literally these groups are very underground. Yeah. Very underground. You don't see much information about these groups. My understanding is it's kind of like the first rule of Fight Club, you know. Don't talk about Fight Club. Yeah. It's true. It's true in a way. Yeah. I've connected over the years.
[00:07:18] But, you know, I guess another experience is the vapor caves in Glenwood standing, you know, obviously not. We're not talking spelunking that style, but a way to be in that environment. Oh, yeah. That you're talking about. And then another unique way to be in that environment. Soaking, literally. Yeah. Right. Very hot. Yeah. No, it is. I mean, I love caves. I always am fascinated by them. So, yeah. But, yeah. One of those, I just wanted to start the show off real quick with a recommendation.
[00:07:47] Now this tour is up. A way to see a largely unseen slice of Colorado nature. Yeah. And just experience something that you can't really experience elsewhere. So the tour itself, it's $99 for ages 13 and up. Anyone under 18 has to be accompanied by a participating adult. You'll need gloves, a change of clothes, extra pair of shoes. Knee pads. It says knee pads are optional but not required. Anytime I'm caving, I'm wearing knee pads and elbow pads.
[00:08:15] And, I mean, you want them. The one time you hit a rock the wrong way on your knee, it hurts pretty bad. Oh, yeah. It hurts when I go in my crawl space. Yeah. So if you're looking for something interesting to do, especially kind of in winter, and remember, whenever you're in a cave, right, the temperature in this cave is, you know, probably in the 50s or so. So perfect for, like, cold weather. I always forget about that. Adventure, yeah. So, yeah, definitely worth checking out. So it's on the Cave of the Winds website. They also offer tours. Like, if that one sounds a little bit too adventurous for you, in a sense.
[00:08:45] In the sense that it's so, like, if you're not ready for that, like, tight spaces and suffer a little bit from claustrophobia, which I admittedly always have to kind of get over that hump as well. But there is that walking tour, yeah. Yeah, there are other tours. There's the Discovery tour, and then there's also a Haunted Lantern tour. I've been on both, and both of those are really cool, too. So definitely recommend Cave of the Winds. It's one of those spots that people don't really hear about when they're visiting from
[00:09:15] out of state, I think, too. And it definitely deserves a lot of attention. Worth the hype. Praise, yeah, I agree. Worth the hype. Riding Colorado Springs, so easy to get to, and a very cool Colorado experience. Like Bear Creek Falls? Yeah, like Bear Creek Falls, yeah. That's kind of an interesting headline that came out this week. Yeah, interesting headline that came out this week. And there may be some developments there.
[00:09:40] But essentially, so Bear Creek Falls, it's listed on TripAdvisor as the number two attraction in the Telluride area, behind only the Telluride scene at Gondola. It's a five-star attraction. It's essentially this main waterfall that you can get to, easy walk from the downtown area. And then there's also an upper fall that's less trafficked.
[00:10:04] But yeah, so the property that that's on was actually listed as for sale. I think it was last week, over the weekend. And it consisted of essentially five mining parcels that span about 33 acres. And in those 33 acres are these waterfalls. Very interesting stuff. It was listed for $14.9 million. And that listing has since been pulled down from the web.
[00:10:33] So who knows if there's been some interest there? But in that listing, though, when it was live, they were kind of alluding to this possibility of the commercialization of the site. So apparently, as stated in the listing, an estimated 200,000 people visit the falls each year. So they were kind of drawn lines between Bear Creek Falls right outside of Telluride and Hanging Lake,
[00:11:01] where there's kind of the associated fee there. And then Seven Falls in Colorado Springs, where it's only accessible via private shuttle that you got to pay for out of the Broadmoor. Obviously, both those waterfalls are stunning, just like Bear Creek Falls. Also stunning. Also very popular. So it'll be interesting to see if a sale was made or if a sale is made, too. I mean, what the future looks like for Bear Creek Falls.
[00:11:31] Yeah, I mean, there could be room for development there, you know? Like a viewing platform, I think, was something that that real estate listing suggested was the construction of some sort of a viewing platform and just a little bit of development there. So yeah, interesting stuff. Bear Creek Falls up for sale, $14.9 million. Yeah, I won't be owning that. Yeah, neither will I. I've never actually hiked over there. So I've been to Bear Creek Falls. It's cool. The hike, it's like very much so.
[00:12:00] I think it's all a Forest Service road or most of it's a Forest Service road. This was years ago at this point. But I remember going through like this avalanche slide zone that was really cool where you could see the effects on the forest of an avalanche just with all the downed trees. And then the waterfalls themselves were absolutely beautiful. I was there on kind of a rainy, cloudy day. But yeah, it was absolutely beautiful. And there were, I mean, there were a lot of people on the trail that day.
[00:12:28] So it's clearly one of those, you know, it's very popular and very accessible waterfall in the Telluride area. Yeah. It kind of calls to mind. I haven't checked in on this recently, but kind of there was some, when push came to shove over at the, what's that waterfall? That site by Marble. Crystal. Oh, Crystal Mill. Right. Yeah. Remember there was like some hubbub about that access and ownership around there trying to, trying to control things to a certain extent.
[00:12:58] You remember that? Yeah. And I think there's a, it's my understanding. Very much related. I believe there's a nonprofit that takes care of it. Okay. In a sense. Okay. Um, and I'm not sure over the, the ownership in that regard, but they have had some issues with like vandalism, bad behavior. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People not following directions by the signs at Crystal Mill. It's like, don't go down into this area. Flying drones. Go down into that area. Yeah.
[00:13:24] I only thought of that just cause, you know, I know, you know, that created a stir with, you know, people wanting to access that. And I can imagine if there's any sort of bar at Bear Creek that, you know, people, uh, people could raise their arms a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and last time I reached out about Crystal Mill, as we're talking about it too, I was, I think I was pretty much told like, oh, just, just wait. There will be more news. And that was probably about a year ago. I don't know. I never heard more news. So yeah. Yeah. I don't really have a solid update about Crystal Mill specifically. I've been watching it lately.
[00:13:55] Yeah. Either way. I mean, Bear Creek Falls, very stunning spot. So, um, check it out. Grab your pennies. Yeah. So, uh, speaking of places around Colorado, we teased something last week, endangered places. And this was something that Seth was, uh, Seth was reporting on, um, in recent days. And, uh, we, we got that story for you too. So tell us about it, Seth. What is, what is this endangered places situation? Yeah.
[00:14:22] So there's a program, um, that has existed for, what is it? Since 40 years, something like that? Uh, it says 28 years. As you can all tell, I'm still finding my notes on it. But there is a program, a nonprofit committed to saving endangered places, right? That they, as they call it, the endangered places program by Colorado Preservation Inc.
[00:14:45] Um, and they, uh, every year they put out a new list of places worthy of this designation, right? And, uh, they kind of help with technical work, um, funding from history, Colorado, raising awareness, right? And, uh, this year they've added four more places. So that brings the total to, is it 144? Is that what you saw, Spencer?
[00:15:14] Yeah, that is, that is what I saw. And 57 of those places have been reportedly saved with nine lost. Yeah, there you go. Program started in 1997, folks. So, yeah. And every year it's like the list, uh, I've kind of come to expect, um, rather obscure places, right? Random buildings, um, that are photographic to some extent, right? Showcasing kind of old Colorado, representing old time Colorado.
[00:15:41] Um, but normally I'm, I'm, I'm learning about them. I've never heard about them. One on the list this year I definitely knew about and had been to, which was the Indiana Jones bed and breakfast. In Antonito, Colorado. Yeah, man. I mean, who would have guessed, right? In Antonito, that's where they decided to film the opening scenes of, uh, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. The childhood home of Indiana Jones. And it's now a bed and breakfast.
[00:16:07] And it's now in need of a new foundation, supposedly, along with some other renovation work in order to survive into the future. Um, another one that caught my attention is referred to as the Newman block. And is it Granada? I heard it pronounced yesterday as Grenada, in fact. I've, I've heard both too. Uh, just yesterday I was in Lamar, Colorado, and someone referred to it as Granada.
[00:16:36] But any whoozle, you get the idea of where Granada is. Southeast Colorado. Um, close to the old Amache camp, right? This dark page of history in Colorado. One of these internment camps during World War II where Japanese Americans were kept. Yeah, which was also previously included on the list. That's right. The camp itself, the internment site. Yep. And, uh, what, your report, I'm quoting your reporting here, Seth, as I'm looking at your article. Yeah, yeah. But you, but it was also one of the saved locations. Right.
[00:17:06] And it's now, what, a national historic site? Yeah. Is that the official designation of it? Yeah. Pretty wild to see that from where it's like an endangered site to this, this saved location and now a national historic site. Which just kind of goes to show, like, there's just all these massively historic, important places around the state that still are just not getting the attention maybe they deserve, right? And I, for sure, didn't know about this, uh, this little slice of the story in Granada.
[00:17:32] You know, again, about a, maybe a couple miles from the internment site. And it kind of became a place where people held there, kind of found work, including at this old pharmacy. The Newman block. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Including, and this pharmacy was, is a part of this block. Two buildings is how they refer to it. And the next door was a marketplace that apparently, uh, that, that was started by one of those, by one of those Japanese American men who was held at Amachi.
[00:17:59] Started this business and apparently gave back to people who still were held there in the months to come. And again, I hadn't really heard that, that part of the story. So what I think even just the story of Amachi itself, people, I mean, that's one of the most overlooked pieces of Colorado history. Horrible times. I mean, it was, uh, uh, during World War II, uh, Japanese Americans were incarcerated at these, uh, at these relocation sites, uh, around the country. Colorado was one of 10 spots.
[00:18:29] Over 10,000 people, uh, most of whom were American citizens, were incarcerated at Amachi from 1942 to 1945. Yeah. So. Yeah. Pretty wild. Awful. Um, yeah. And so this guy got released in 1943. Um, and he had, he had, uh, owned a fish market back in Los Angeles before he was, before he was taken from that life. And here in Little Granada, he tried to start back up that business. So.
[00:18:57] And so now the building is, uh, maybe on the verge of collapse is how I was reading it. Um, thus the listing as endangered. Redcliffe is on the list. Redcliffe Town Hall. I definitely have driven by that old town hall building. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, built in new, maybe late 1880s. Yeah.
[00:19:20] And it's also important to note too, like these endangered places are not like, or at least I haven't seen one that's a natural spot that's endangered. It's, they're all like these older historic buildings. A lot of them are in Southern Colorado. Yeah. Uh, from what I've noticed over the years of covering it, but. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Stories that. All these like old school houses, old town halls like that. You know, I think there's, um, old bills, old like railroad depots are on it. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:49] I kind of nerd out over this kind of stuff really. Well, I mean, Colorado has so much history just related to kind of like the, the Spanish presence here. Yeah. And, and obviously a native, native and indigenous presence here. And then, um, just the mining history here and all of that. Like you could, you can go forever about Colorado's history. It truly exemplifies that wild West that you hear about. And these places showed off. Still in view. Yeah. You know, I mean like that kind of strikes me.
[00:20:17] Like Colorado is just not that old. Yeah. As a state, you know, shall we say modern Colorado, um, Europeanized Colorado is not that old compared to back East and in the Midwest where a lot of this other stuff that we talk about school houses, town halls, train depots. Those were in fact torn down many years ago. Whereas ones in Colorado were built years later and had more chances to survive, I guess, you know.
[00:20:47] Yeah. I mean, Colorado is essentially what? Three generations old. Right. Right. Like as, as a state at least. Right. But yeah, pretty interesting stuff. Also. So also in Southern Colorado, Seth, uh, you were covering the Sandhill Cranes. Yeah. Which a, uh. About time for them to come back. Pretty wild natural phenomenon whenever you, you see photos of it. I haven't been in a couple of years now, but I really do like going to see the Sandhill Cranes. So tell us, tell us about it a little bit.
[00:21:13] So every, uh, I'm, I, I am just hoping our, or hoping our dear listeners know about this migration by now. Because it is a wonderful thing to see. It's like, it's like 20,000 Sandhill Cranes, right? And Sandhill Cranes are huge. They're like, what, five feet tall, seven foot wingspan. I read like four feet tall, six foot wingspan. So, but I don't, you know, you know, they're big, big birds. The bigger ones do get that. I don't know. Uh, but yeah, the, the, uh, Monta Vista Crane Festival places like they, they put 20,000
[00:21:42] coming every year and they come from the South parts of, uh, Northern New Mexico, other parts of the Southwest on their way to summering grounds, more North and the Rockies and the Plains. And, uh, they very traditionally stop over in the San Luis Valley for those barley fields and wetlands and those nutritious grounds for them, uh, to, to hang out for a couple months. Typically here, February into much of March.
[00:22:08] The Crane Festival is March 7th, that weekend of March 7th. Yeah, 7th to the 9th is what I'm seeing here. Um, and there's lots of activities, a lot of ticketed events through that, but you know, anyone can go and drive around the Monta Vista National Wildlife Refuge, those roads crisscrossing those fields there where you're going to see the cranes hanging out all day, loafing as they call it. I wonder how the cranes would feel about that, you know? Don't call me a loaf. I mean, they are just chilling. They are just chilling.
[00:22:38] They might be dancing. That's a treat to see, you know, when they, their courtship dances, where they'll flap their wings and kind of jump around and. Well, and they're so recognizable too, with that red patch on their eye. Yeah. And then just like that bold eye right in that red patch. Like they're. Against, against the song, the song race, you know, just the backdrop. Yeah. The San Luis Valley. The photos are incredible. The photos, I mean, sell the event. Like you just see thousands of birds in the air with the mountain backdrop and just obviously
[00:23:07] the stretching San Luis Valley area. Yeah. Um, it's at four hours from Denver too, so not that far. Um, in terms of, uh, you know, people, people might tend to think that, uh, I've noticed that in Colorado where it's like, if something's more than trip that, if something's more than two hours away, it just feels so far. Whereas back when I was living in Indiana, it was like four hours. I was like, yeah, that's the, that's what we got to drive to you for entertainment. Or if you're in Texas, you know, I always see the billboards for Buc-ee's, right? Like when you're coming south. Oh yeah.
[00:23:35] Southern Colorado coming in Buc-ee's 200 miles away. I always think for Texans, that's nothing. Yeah. It's like, we'll be there in no time. Oh, that's a long drive. So yeah. If you want to see them fly like, uh, more around, uh, dawn and dusk, a little after the sun rises and a little bit before the sun sets, you're going to see them flying to their roosts. Nice. But otherwise, yeah, throughout the day, they're mostly going to be hanging out and, um. Loafing. Very ancient.
[00:24:01] I mean, that's, I think the thing about seeing them, like it just recalls, you know, unimaginable history. I mean, they're, they're, they're thought to be, um, like one of the oldest birds that we see today. I mean, they look like dinosaurs. Yeah. It says, here you go. Here you go. This is what, uh, pulling this up. Thankful for Google here while we're, uh, podcasting live. Um, but it says, uh, fossils have been found that are 2.5 million years old. Yeah.
[00:24:28] Older than half of the earliest remains of most living species of birds. Or wait, older by half than the earliest remains. I don't even know what that means. Older by half. I get it. Confusing. But yeah. I learned recently, I guess they're in the Valley kind of, um, on, uh, on a certain cliff face, there is like a petroglyph that's, that shows a sandhill crane. And that petroglyph is thought to be 2000 years old. Dang.
[00:24:58] So just think about the people at that time looking at these birds that we look at, you know, like, I think that's, I think that's pretty cool. That is pretty cool. To think about. Yeah. And they do, they're, they're, uh, they do have just that like dinosaur, like stare. Like you can tell that is like a, a bird that has survived. But it's nice to know, it's nice to know they won't eat you. At least I've never heard of a sandhill crane eating anyone. Don't get too close. I guess.
[00:25:25] Don't let me be the one to, to tell you, but yeah. So check that out. March 7th to 9th. Yeah. Three hour drive from Colorado Springs. Four hour drive. They should be there later this month. They'll be, they'll be starting to come in numbers probably this month. Yeah. Very cool. Um, yeah, here, I guess let's, uh, maybe let's close out the show with chat about another bird. Sure. How you feel about that, Seth? Another bird that's caught my fascination. Perhaps one of the most mispronounced bird names of, uh,
[00:25:54] how do you hear people say it? All the state species. Uh, Tarmigan is how I say it, but people always try to, it starts with a P, uh, since this is just audio. Tarmigan. Yeah. It starts with P-T-A-R-M-I-G-A-N. People find a way to put that P in there. You know, they find a way. I have never heard that. Yeah. Um, but, uh, yeah. So, P-Tarmigan, there's, you know, there's P-Tarmigan Lake, right? Yes. That's a famous lake in Colorado. Yes. Uh, it's a very interesting little bird, though. It is.
[00:26:23] Worthy of having stuff. Specifically, the white-tailed P-Tarmigan is what we're talking about and what I've been kind of learning more about recently. And, uh, I came by a book that calls them the ghosts of the alpine tundra. Because they famously, um, in the summer, they exist in the alpine, which makes them quite unique among birds. You just don't see many birds at all who live in the above 11,000 feet throughout the year. Mm-hmm. And in the summer, they're, they're, they're kind of streaked in like a pale brown
[00:26:54] matching the rocky tundra, right? Mm-hmm. And come winter, they turn white, snow white, right? To match the snow. Um, camouflage, right? Adapted. Yeah, that's crazy to see how, like, I wonder how, how that even worked out. Yeah. Just adaptive, yeah. I've read, like, maybe their history, like, could go back to when, like, the glaciers started retreating. Mm-hmm. And they found themselves in high terrain and just found a way to adapt and live in that high terrain.
[00:27:24] And it's, it's, uh, highly sought among birders, I learned. I talked to birders who, you know, call this, like, a total gem. You know, if you can find, if you can come across a white-tailed Ptarmigan, it is, it's a treat, as you can imagine. I mean, I think more people come across them on accident, right? When they're just hiking along. Yeah. And they're very sedentary. They're known not to. They're hard to see. I've passed one before and didn't even notice. Have you? And then you hear it, like, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's cool. And it was in the snow, too.
[00:27:50] And, yeah, you couldn't, I couldn't, I didn't see it until I was, like, already past it, and then it moved, and I kind of caught something out of the peripheral vision. But they're hard to see. Good for you. They're very camouflaged. If I've passed one, I have not known. Yeah. And for our listeners, they're the smallest bird in the grouse family. Yeah. North American grouse. So, also known as a snow quail. So, you can kind of picture what they look like. Mm-hmm. But, yeah, they are, like, very white.
[00:28:18] Like, they, like, almost pure white, like snow white. And then... They're beautiful looking birds. Just their eye and their beak can be seen. I was saddened to hear that there's increasing thought that there could be concern for this bird as the, you know, amid warming temperatures. Mm-hmm. As the climate changes, you know, is this bird going to be able to adapt? This bird that has managed to live and prefers to live in a very specific,
[00:28:48] one might say, enclosed zone that is, one also might say, increasingly shrinking from a changing climate. You know, is this bird going to be able to make it? There's been studies in recent years that show big... Luckily, there's, like, a bunch of data to draw from. Like, I guess these things were being researched on Mount Blue Sky and Rocky Mountains since, like, the 60s. Oh, dang. So, there's a bunch of data to draw from.
[00:29:15] And, I mean, as of 2016, you know, there's population data from Mount Blue Sky shows looks pretty good. In Rocky, they found significant declines in population. So, I mean, just uncertainty with that. In more recent years, in, you know, 2021 and 2022, a team, Colorado Parks and Wildlife, point person who's been...
[00:29:43] You can imagine what that research looks like embarking into these places. Oh, yeah. Hiking miles on end. And she's finding data that increasingly shows a big disparity between males and females. Like, there's way more males than females, seemingly. And that's... Maybe that speaks for itself why that's problematic, right? Yeah. I mean, we're talking about other generations being able to go, right?
[00:30:10] If there's fewer females, there's going to be fewer chances of that. And the reasons for that are still being learned. You know, there could be some human error in that. Females are just typically harder to find. They're typically hanging out at their nests more, not moving as much. But there's also thought, like, maybe they're having to move more with less moisture, creating less vegetation, having to embark farther,
[00:30:38] maybe putting themselves up for predators more. Warming temperatures definitely could have impacts on their physiology. What's that word? Physiology? That allows them to live as they prefer in these colder habitats. Yeah. So, a pretty bird to appreciate maybe all the more amid maybe some uncertainty. Well, and that kind of reminds me of the concerns surrounding the pika as well. Right. It's exactly the same story.
[00:31:04] They essentially describe the pika as kind of being pushed to an island, in a sense, where these pika, they're very sensitive to their body temperature, and their body temperature changes. And so, they tend to live in these high alpine environments, underground. And during the summer months, as warm temperatures roll in, they've found that pika are kind of being pushed higher and higher up on these mountains and less able to go down into these valleys. Right.
[00:31:34] Which creates this whole issue of, like, genetic diversity, where you essentially have, like, the same pika families and communities interbreeding with each other. Yep. And then, at the same time, too, there's just less space for them to, you know, look for food and forage and things like that. So, similar concerns around the pika. Very similar. And I heard, you know, to that point, you know, the researcher with Colorado Parks and Wildlife I talked to was saying,
[00:32:02] you know, she's heard that thought of, well, could the bird move higher? And she kind of thinks that, you know, she could better imagine the bird moving lower, thinking microclimates, microhabitats might be more suitable lower for the bird. But we're talking about a bird that flushes, turns white in winter. Yeah. If they're in an environment where there's not snow, they're easily spotted by predators, right? Yeah. They camouflage. That's how they have prolonged.
[00:32:30] So, in chick counts are going down. I saw, you know, the occupancy numbers for chicks look lower in recent years. And that 2016 study found that breeding, they determined breeding in these locations since the 60s, is happening on average like 9 to 12 days earlier, right? Which could be good in some researchers' minds,
[00:32:55] because typically these birds produce one clutch, right, one batch of eggs. And there's usually not that many to start with, maybe five or six eggs. You know, that's another problematic thing in the picture here. But if they go earlier, there's a thought like, could they produce a second clutch? Would they have time to produce a second clutch? Huh. That sounds good. But the other side of that is, could it be missed? Could the production be happening mistimed?
[00:33:22] In other words, could these chicks come when there's, as you and me both know, as anyone knows, snow comes late spring, right? Yeah. So when this breeding, if this breeding is happening earlier, could it still be at a time when snow comes in and wipes out the chicks? Yeah. Right? So, yeah, there's a lot of ongoing research with it. But as I heard like one birder describe it, like the picture of the bird is kind of this peaceful image in a harsh environment, like the Alpine, you know?
[00:33:52] And like, I don't know, like it's easy for writers to romanticize, you know? But in my mind, that's very poignant, right? Like a bird that seems at peace and can't adapt in a harsh world, right? Like kind of a romantic bird in a sense. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Best of luck to the ptarmigans. That's right. Raise a glass to the ptarmigan. Yeah. And the pika. I love the pika. I was always very sad about the news there. Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah.
[00:34:21] Very similar story. Yeah. Well, and also even, I mean, in the case of the pika, to give you a little bit more on that, because we probably won't touch on it again, at least for a while. But last I heard experts were saying that they think the pika might be a little bit more able to adapt than they thought. So they might be able to move a little bit further down, opposed to just kind of getting pushed higher and higher up on the mountain. So one of those things where, you know, have to wait and see. Got to cherish our wildlife. Yeah. Cherish your wildlife. Yeah. So I think that's about all we got for you today.
[00:34:52] Cool. We will chat with you sometime next week. But until then, I'm Spencer. I'm Seth. And we will see you out there. There you go. See you guys.