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[00:01:58] I couldn't sleep. I'm checking the ropes. I was afraid and on Europe. And I'm cutting it out. Good weather. Good weather. Now or later, anytime. Good time. Today's show is brought to you by La Sportiva. Arcteryx Equipment. And with support from Maxim Ropes.
[00:02:27] Maxim has been keeping the normal cast off the deck since 2012. And don't forget our charter sponsor, Bonfire Coffee. Go to bonfirecoffee.com and enter Enorma at checkout for a discount on great coffee and to support the Enormocast. And now back to the show. Hello and welcome to the Enormocast. This is your host Chris Kalous.
[00:02:56] It is September 2nd, 2026, about 11 a.m. here in Colorado. And this is a tweener on the Enormocast. One of those shows that fits in between the regular episodes. And on today's tweener, I'm going to do a rebroadcast of the struggle podcast, A Noob's Guide to Horseshoe Hell. I believe this also went out on the Ground Up podcast. So if you listen to it on either of those podcasts, you don't really need to bother.
[00:03:24] I'll have a proper Enormocast out in about a week. So we'll see you then. All right. I'll give you a second to shut her down. Might I suggest switching over to Written in Stone with my friend and doppelganger Chris Hampton. You know, as long as we're glowing up other podcasts here.
[00:03:43] All right, folks, those of you still here, the Noob's Guide to Horseshoe Hell is an interview conducted by Ryan Devlin at the Struggle podcast with myself and Ari and Rob from the Ground Up podcast. So a great big podcaster collaboration. The reason this was conducted is because Ryan Devlin asked me to join him as his partner for the 24 hours of Horseshoe Hell coming up on the 23rd to the 27th of September down there in Arkansas.
[00:04:13] And for some reason I said yes. Well, I'm kind of a yes guy. I try to say yes to these sorts of opportunities. I'd been invited in the past and logistically and everything else that hadn't worked out. So why not jump in? Why not plunge into the 24 hours of Horseshoe Hell? Ari and Rob are very experienced at this event. So they came on the struggle to give us some beta as two noobs.
[00:04:36] And frankly, you know, much of this great advice for preparation and everything else I've had to ignore because of life, because of logistics. Ryan and I are not going to get to Arkansas until the evening before having never climbed at the ranch. We'll be up early, earlier than we should be for the event to start at 10 a.m. on Friday.
[00:04:59] So we have a whole 12 hours to create whatever food sitch we're going to do and stashes and everything else. Who knows? We're mostly going to be on sighting, but you know what? That's a style I've always embraced. All right. And one other little bit of business before we get to this tweener. I'm going to be up at the newly created Smith Rock Climbing Festival on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th of October.
[00:05:28] So the weekend right after the Horseshoe Hell, I will probably still be limping around in a daze. However, this event has been created to replace the Craig and Classic up there, getting it off the ground. But even though it's a new festival or renamed old festival, whatever it is, it's going to include the 5th Annual Rock Wrangler Competition, which is a day of climbing for points and fun and prizes at Smith Rock. I am not going to be participating in that.
[00:05:57] I will just tell you that right now. However, I will be doing a live podcast with Alan Watts on Friday night and going to help MC the event and the party on Saturday night. And I'll just be around. And the main reason I said I would go up to this little festival is because I have never been to Smith Rock. And that is a freight train sized hole in my resume. I've always joked that it is diagonal from Colorado and going diagonally is difficult.
[00:06:25] And that is a joke, but it is also true. Traveling diagonal across the country is hard. Anyhow, haven't been. No, it's not the best time of year to be climbing up there. Many people have told me, but you know, we'll find some shade, do our thing. I can't wait to touch that storied rock. Be scared on those old school sport routes. Maybe do a little crack climbing even down in the bottom part. Smith Rock Climbing Festival with the Rock Wrangler Competition is the 2nd to the 4th of October.
[00:06:54] If you want more information, go to redpointclimbing.com. The shop there is putting it on. They've got a tab on their website, all the info. Be an early adopter. You know, when you're up at land or at the International Climbing Festival, there's a competition among the olds to see who was at the first one or the second one or whatever. Maybe that'll be you in 20 years. And congratulations to the Redpoint Shop for getting redpointclimbing.com. Probably a long time ago because I think that would be a very sought after domain.
[00:07:25] All right, let's get to it. A Noob's Guide to Horseshoe Hell with myself, Ryan, Ari, and Rob. Hey folks. As you know, I parade my past dirtbag cred around on the Enorma Cast like I'm the king of the carnival in four Cezeracs deep. Toyota truck, months in the creek, thumbing around Australia, blah, blah, blah. But the truth is, most of us are part dirtbag at least part of the time.
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[00:08:46] And the fit? So dialed your family will not roll their collective eyeballs when it's the one nice thing you have to wear to your sister's wedding. So stop pretending your seasoned jacket is a badge of honor. Or at least leave it in the back seat when you actually gear up for something serious. And go to Arcteryx.com or your local shop and allow yourself at least one nice thing in your life. You deserve it. All right, Ari, Rob, and Chris Kaluse in the house today for a hell of a conversation about hell.
[00:09:16] I'm really excited about this, guys. Thank you for taking the time. We're stoked to be here. Thanks for having us, Ryan. There's not a topic that exists that I think we could be more stoked to talk about than 24 Hours of Horseshoe Hell. Appreciate you having us on. I mean, hell is near and dear to our hearts, so we're pumped to be here. And that should be a fun one. I'm just happy to get the help, whatever help there is. That's what I'm thinking. I'm like, equal parts excited and terrified for this conversation here.
[00:09:41] And to be clear, Chris, you have not attended a 24 Hours of Horseshoe Hell. Is that right? No, I have not. Okay. There's been some in fights in the past and just things had never worked out to get all the way down there. So yeah, this will be my first. Got to ask real quick. I mean, what was the dynamic here? Who convinced who to do it?
[00:10:00] Well, I reached out to Chris to see if he like, you know, after asking six, seven, 18 other, other potential, you know, Jordan Cannon said no. A couple of babies. Honnold said no. Tommy said no. Chris, don't feel too bad. I actually was not Ari's first choice for Horseshoe Hell either. So I was an injury reserve call in. So it's not the end of the world. You'll be all right.
[00:10:26] But to be perfectly honest, Chris was my first ask on this because we climbed together in Squamish and he like rope gunned me up multi pitch there. And he's just like so good with volume, just such a fun guy to hang out with. And I was like, OK, if I'm going to do 24 hours of volume and, you know, likely going to be crashing out at some point in time, both physically and emotionally, I think Chris could be a really good guy to help me get through it.
[00:10:55] And I'm sure we'll talk about that in this conversation. In fact, the selection of partner is probably a pretty big thing, but I'm getting ahead of myself. We should first get to know our expert guests as this is a noob's guide to hell. And Chris and I very resoundingly represent the noobs on this chat here. Ari and Rob from Ground Up, you guys have been doing Horseshoe Hell and talking about it and participating in it for quite some time now. So let's do just like some quick little intros before we dive into the meat of this conversation.
[00:11:24] Ari, we'll start with you and maybe let us know where you're at, a little bit of your history, you know, how many years you've done hell and that kind of thing. And just, you know, who you are as a climber. Yeah, like I'm my name's Ari Grody. I'm based out of Denver, Colorado. Learned to climb in the southeast in North Carolina. Been climbing for maybe about 10 years and started doing Horseshoe Hell. My first year was 2019.
[00:11:47] I would say I'm a pretty typical weekend warrior climber, sport trad, bouldering, kind of do a little bit of it all. Although now that I live in the front range, I got a little bit better access to a little bit more weekday climbing. But yeah, just love big challenges and Horseshoe Hell is the perfect opportunity to kind of push yourself outside of, you know, just the typical, typical metrics at which we measure ourselves. So, yeah, stoked to stoked to share some insight and mistakes we've made and hopefully help you guys avoid some of those.
[00:12:16] Yeah, yeah. Likewise. I'm psyched for that as well. Rob, how about you, my man? Give us the backstory. Yeah, like Ari, I also started climbing in the southeast. We started climbing together in North Carolina and that was kind of like, I had like a college soccer background and then found climbing and it was like, oh, this is fantastic. I could see myself doing this for the rest of my life. So kind of dove into that. And yeah, I mean, Horseshoe Hell, same year as Ari, started in 2019. We had the break with COVID in 2020.
[00:12:43] And then, so this is coming up on seven years of Horseshoe Hell. So it should be kind of fun. But yeah, definitely more of the weekend warrior. I'm a filmmaker as well, too. So kind of get to travel a bit for that, which is fun with climbing. But yeah, these days I live in New York City. So I pull on a bit more plastic than I used to. But you kind of make it all work and get to go up to the gunks and things like that as well, too. So it's a good time. Okay, let's get an overview of Horseshoe Hell for the absolute noob.
[00:13:08] And honestly, Chris and I could just still be put in this category because the amount of actual research I've put into this is pretty slim. I guess I'll speak for myself and not for Chris. No, nothing. I have no idea. Like, I honestly, like, I don't even really know where it is. That's a good place to start. I mean, it's in Arkansas somewhere. Right. Which seems absurd. Let's start with that.
[00:13:31] Probably the most likely place people would have heard of or seen Horseshoe Hell, this is where I discovered it, was they made a real rock maybe eight or nine years ago featuring Alex Honnold versus Mason Earl and Nick Berry. And it was kind of a fun real rock, I guess, where kind of David versus Goliath type of story. But that was my introduction to what it was. And it just looked like this wild event that takes place in the backwoods of Arkansas.
[00:13:57] And everybody dresses up in costumes and parties and climbs as much as they can for 24 hours. And that's essentially what the event is, is it's grown from there. But it's essentially the main staple of Horseshoe Hell is a 24-hour climbing event. Starts at 10 a.m. on Friday, ends at 10 a.m. on Saturday. And you have the whole ranch at your disposal to climb as many pitches, get as many points. You know, there's like a multitude of different objectives you can kind of tackle.
[00:14:24] But it's kind of you and a partner setting out for 24 hours to see if you can kind of survive the night. And Rob, what's the like overall vibe? Like why do people want to do this? And who is this event for? Yeah, it's a good question. I think the overall vibe is like we always kind of say it's just one big party. And that doesn't necessarily mean like it's nonstop. But everyone that's down there is obviously there for like one very specific reason.
[00:14:52] And it's like an eclectic group of people, right? So like I already said, you're dressing up in costumes. And you're trying to just like make this supper fest as enjoyable as possible. And so that goes from everything from like obviously the climbers that are there. But like the volunteer staff that there is incredible. They like do a really good job of keeping the spirits high. There's a lot of people that just come to spectate and watch. There's like support crews and like there's kind of like a fine line on how much you can help or not help and stuff like that.
[00:15:20] But all that to say is like there's a lot more people than just the crazy climbers that are there. So there is a good energy that goes on. There's always like a concert afterwards, I guess would be kind of concert. Seems like a generous term. But there's like an after party as well, too, and all of that. So it's really fun. But yeah, I would say like the people that kind of typically go down, I think, are maybe the ones that end up going down the most.
[00:15:43] I think it has something to do with the fact that like this event is really enjoyable for everyone because it sort of scales to whatever your climbing level and ability is. Because it's not only about climbing the hardest grade. Like obviously the harder you can climb, like the better you will perform. But there's different categories in terms of like difficulty. But there's also different categories like who climbed the most five nines or who climbed the most five tens or who did the most trad laps or who did the longest routes. Right.
[00:16:13] So this is like an event that's geared towards sort of pushing yourself to your own limits, whatever those are. And I think that's why like a lot of people come back is because like if you go down there for the first year, like you kind of see, OK, this is like this fun party that's kind of got like this supper fest element to it.
[00:16:32] But once you actually experience it, you sort of tap into a different side of your own climbing ability that is hard to replicate just like going out cragging or going out and doing a multi-pitch or some big objective. Right. I've got the most important thing I'm hearing right now, Chris, is that we really need to work on is not forearm endurance or tactics. It's costume. Yeah. Got it. No, I was just thinking through that right now. How to be like offensive but not get canceled is really the.
[00:17:02] The line I think I'm going to try to go for. I don't. I mean, you guys might have a little more on the line in terms of getting canceled, but we've seen some pretty wild get ups. I think you I think you're safe for the most part. But yeah, costume actually like you talk about like little tips and tricks like costumes actually kind of a big one, at least are. And I think so, because like you want to be comfortable so you can kind of use like a ridiculous costume to make it a little easier on yourself. Like, you know, leggings are pretty cozy to wear, but I'm definitely not going to be caught in the crag on like any given normal day.
[00:17:32] Wearing leggings. But on a day like this, like anything goes. Does everybody I want to get back to like the actual overview and the rules of this thing, but like Ari, does everyone wear a costume as a is a costume a prerequisite for taking part or just it's just fun? No, it's not a prerequisite, but there's a it's highly encouraged. I would say it can get a lot of the costume. The spectrum of what you see there is a lot of fun. They'll offer usually they offer haircuts on site.
[00:18:00] So you get some really wacky haircuts and beard cuts. Team name is always a fun one. They do a roll call at the beginning of the event and there are some seriously creative team names. So it's just another way for everybody to kind of get into the hell spirit. I saw that they also do tattoos on site. So, Chris, if the haircut isn't appealing to you, we could we could get some tattoos, bro. Then you do tattoos on site. I'll measure my commitment on that. There you go. We'll see how many brews we have before or after.
[00:18:29] OK, so let's get back to the rules for a second here. And then I really want to explore like what noobs like Chris and I should be thinking about as we've got a little over not quite two months, I guess, at the time of recording this before the event kicks off. And there's lots of preparation and tactics that I want to explore. But, Rob, you mentioned kind of this idea of points and taking different routes and lengths and difficulties and all of that.
[00:18:55] But let's just kind of zoom out for a second and really just understand what it means to participate. And and kind of for Chris and I, at least like minimum effective participation required to be considered like a finisher of this kind of event. But then feel free to like expand out for those who are listening right now and who might just be like psyched and say, oh, I want to try to go in and win something or kind of place in a certain area.
[00:19:24] It'd be fun to explore at least some of those categories as well. Ari, we can start with you. Give us like what you know, what's it going to take for a noob to just finish this thing in terms of like satisfying any requirements or rules? Yeah, I would say probably the bare minimum requirement for at least if you're in the 24 hour event. I guess we didn't we didn't mention that, but there's a 12 hour event. There's a 24 hour event and there's also a bouldering event that's somewhat new within the last couple of years. So participants can choose to participate in any of those or a combination.
[00:19:54] Some people do the 12 and the 24 together, which is makes for one hell of a time. But I would say the minimum on the 24 is one climb per hour over the 24 hour period. So that's kind of like you survived the entire horseshoe hill. You climb to pitch every hour, both you and your partner. That's kind of like bare minimum. And then you can scale it from there. And that's each of us, just to be clear, each of us doing a climb, not a team doing one climb per hour, but each member of a team.
[00:20:18] I'm doing OK, I got it. And no matter what, if you it doesn't have to be the same climb, no matter what to requalify, you have to meet that requirement. So there's we'll talk about it, I'm sure, here in a minute. But there's several different ways you can requalify if you want to get in the next year and, you know, avoid the lottery. But no matter what, you have to hit one climb every hour for the whole 24 hours. OK. I think.
[00:20:43] Yeah, but as Ari mentioned, too, I'd say like so obviously like that one climb per 24 hours is sort of like bare minimum. You're sort of you're doing it right. But most people's I'd say a lot of people's kind of like introductory level goal is sort of that requalification plateau. And so there's a couple of different ways to do that. It used to like when we first started, you used to do double laps. You like each partner could climb twice on every route. They've since like the rules have evolved since it started and since we've started doing it.
[00:21:13] But now it's only single laps. So each partner can climb the same route once. So if you do a route, Chris can go up afterwards, all that. But everyone leads everything as well. So you don't get any points for top roping. We have some funny stories about that. But yeah, you can pinpoint if you're climbing trad. But outside of that, you do have to lead everything. And then as far as the requalification goes, you can, as you mentioned, like there's a points category. There's also like a number of laps category.
[00:21:41] And they now have like what's called like a horseshoe category as well, too. And that's basically like a combination of like your number of laps and also climbing that like each crag that's around the horseshoe canyon. So those are sort of like the three different qualification thresholds. And I think, is it 115 laps now or is it 130 for the requalification? No, now that they've, so last year they changed it so you can only, like Rob said, do single laps on every climb.
[00:22:08] So it's at least last year, maybe it's changed this year. It's 100 routes each. So if you climb 100 pitches each, you both requalify. You could also do for the 24, 55 pitches of trad each or I think it's like 12,000 points and, you know, the points scale based on the difficulty of the route that you send. Oh, my God. 100 routes sounds like so many routes, you guys.
[00:22:34] Well, you got to remember this is probably like one of the closest things to an outdoor gym you will find. So there's like a pretty high concentration of like 30, 40 foot routes like stacked next to each other. Yeah. Can we actually explore that a little bit? Because I think we just blew past. I got obsessed with costumes for a second there. But can you tell us a little bit about the ranch? As we noted, it's in Arkansas. So maybe this happens in late September. Give us a little sense for what we think the conditions are going to be.
[00:23:03] But then also, yeah, if you could explain how it's laid out, what the climbing style is like, what the rock is like, what the bolting is like. Just, you know, I've never climbed over there. I've never climbed at all in Arkansas. I don't think I've ever been to Arkansas. I don't think I've ever been through. I've been over Arkansas in an airplane. But that's about it. Chris, have you ever been to Arkansas? Nope. No, sir. Okay. The cansaw or the Arkansas. Either one. Well, actually, I've driven through the cansaw.
[00:23:29] I think like all I know of Arkansas is like the hills are alive. Isn't that didn't that take place there where like people were wearing other people's skin? That's that's my. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe avoid maybe avoid that as the costume. Chris, that might be the line for like where you do and don't get canceled. Human skin. Yeah. Depends on whose it is. Let's face it. Human jerky is OK for fuel. This is a throwback to a different episode that Chris and I did. Human jerky.
[00:23:55] Um, yeah, Ari, give us a sense for just like what the ranch is like and what the climbing there is like. Sure. Yeah. I don't know about you, Rob, but that was my first time. 2019 Horseshoe Hill was my first time going to Arkansas as well. And and the ranch is like it's an awesome place. It's kind of laid out like a horseshoe drive in really beautiful country. And I think, Ryan, you're going to do pretty well there. It's all sandstone. A lot of jugs. A lot of overhangs.
[00:24:20] Like it's it is, like Rob said, kind of equivalent to an outdoor gym, pretty at least as the sport route, as the sport routes go pretty friendly bolting. There's a lot of routes that were probably established that probably wouldn't normally be established, but have been established for this competition. So there's throughout the entire ranch, you've got about maybe 500, 550 routes to choose from. You know, some of them are as short as, you know, 20 feet on like the backside of a boulder
[00:24:47] or others, you know, can get kind of long. So you have a pretty wide selection, but it's it's sandstone, really friendly on the skin for the most part until, you know, you kind of get into the weeds with things going for 12 plus hours, but a lot of chicken heads. So if you're familiar with chicken heads, like you get to pull on some of the biggest steering wheel size chicken heads like you can imagine. Great for, you know, wrapping slings around if you're doing some trad climbing. Yeah. What am I missing here, Rob?
[00:25:14] I think like the other element to it, the thing about is like there is sort of like an east and a west side of the ranch. So it's a horseshoe canyon and you can like you, you can get more points for crossing the canyon if points is sort of your strategy. It's also like just the element of, especially with the single laps, they're trying to encourage people to travel more now, as opposed to just posting up in the areas that have those 20 footers stacked on top of each other. So the, the two sides of the ranch also sort of changes the style a bit too.
[00:25:42] Like on the east side, there's a little bit more taller cliffs as well. Whereas like the west side has some longer stuff that isn't as well traveled. So some of that stuff gets a bit chossy, but then like the North 40 is really where the party kind of comes alive as well for this. Cause there's just this incredible concentration of just route after route after route. And some of these small boulders that have 25 routes on them that aren't that tall. So you can kind of clean up in like an hour pretty quickly, depending on what pace you're moving at it, what you're trying to do.
[00:26:12] So yeah, I think that's probably the only other thing that Ari left out there is just like the two sides are a little bit different. And then crossing the canyon, obviously is an element of logistics that can like kind of play into your strategy, whether you do or don't want to do it. And just how far is that? Oh, go ahead. It's not far. Ari's probably got a better estimation on that, but it's probably what? Like half a mile? Walking time maybe. Yeah. Okay. So yeah. You know, if you cross on like the ends, it can be a little bit shorter, but if you kind of went like point to point, center to center, it'd probably take you about 20
[00:26:41] minutes, I'd say to cross. Not something you want to do frequently, but it's certainly not a deal breaker or anything in terms of, you know, wanting to go to the other side. It can play a big role though. Like in terms of if it's a sunny day, I mean the ranch, we're talking late September in Arkansas, so it's going to most likely be pretty dang hot. So the east side start can be a little bit bold if it's pretty sunny and hot out. Rob and I did that our first year and baked in the sun for about eight hours, which I wouldn't recommend to folks.
[00:27:11] But yeah, if you're doing like, like Rob said, they introduced this concept called the full horseshoe, which was, it was kind of Jeremy Collins came up with it and it was kind of a way to encourage climbers to leave the North 40, which was this like really highly concentrated area where you could get a lot of pitches in. And they were kind of trying to encourage people to explore a little bit more, see some of the other crags. And it was honestly a really good idea that you could get, you could requalify by hitting
[00:27:36] kind of one of all 24 of the zones or the crags throughout the ranch. And there's still a pitch requirement with that, but it's a little bit less. And so that, that can be some, if you're going for the four horseshoe full horseshoe, that's something you'd factor in is like how to travel around the ranch and you get to see it all, which is pretty cool. Yeah. And if you're feeling ambitious, there is a golden horseshoe as well too, that sort of requalifies you for the next five years. So it's like you do every single requalification option, including the horseshoe, the, the like
[00:28:06] just pitch count and the points and then the trad one as well, all at once. And if you do that, you get like automatic five years. So what do you think Caloose? Five more years, you and me, let's go for it. Like, I think that's a lot, a lot of together time, Ryan. No, but the full horseshoe sounds interesting. That definitely sounds pretty cool. Well, you've got the calves for it. Yeah. I feel like this is, this is a good opportunity to kind of segue into a little bit of the preparation.
[00:28:34] And then I want to come back to tactics because we're talking about sun. We're talking about crowds, finding easy routes, lots of things that are going through my minds right now, just kind of on the tactical side. But I am like, my mind is like thinking a lot about preparation because we're talking about a lot of vertical climbing. And so, you know, the, the, the forearms, the body, the skin, but also potentially if you're going for the full horseshoe and just maybe in general, it's a lot of time on your
[00:29:02] feet, a lot of time walking around, running, hiking, you know, whatever. So there's kind of just a general stamina, lower body. And then of course there's just like kind of being able to stay awake and have energy for all this, which may bleed into some of the tactics on whether people are getting like micro naps and things like that. But we're two months out. So how would you recommend Chris and I prepare for the, just the physical demands of what 24 hours is going to require?
[00:29:33] So, so maybe first, can I ask, you know, what are you guys trying to like, what, what kind of, or what are you trying to get out of the event? Like, do you have any goals? Do you have kind of a plan in mind of what you want to tackle or still TBD? I don't want to embarrass myself. So I want to finish well. I would like the requalification. The basics is obviously something to hit. But yeah, that's kind of, I mean, I don't have a lot of goals in terms of placing in
[00:30:02] some high level or, or like, I don't know. I just want to go and, and, and make a good showing. And I mean, I'm, I'm certain I can climb through the night and all that sort of thing. I've done it many, many times on in remote places, you know, not by choice, but by force. So yeah. So yeah, just make a good showing. Don't let my buddy Ryan down, you know, it's more his zone Southeast there. He's a bigger deal, you know? Well, well, I appreciate it. Yeah.
[00:30:31] I mean, look, I'm with Chris. You're like, I mean, primary goal, honestly, is to just like fully experience the madness that is this event. And I think Chris, yeah, Chris and I share that. Like what we want to do. We've even talked about like maybe not even creating any sort of content or any, like we just kind of want to be in it and really experience it. And then we'll do like a, a podcast afterwards or we'll maybe capture some stuff along the way. We could talk with you guys about that, like with just kind of the feasibility of like, you know, what it's like to try to do this and also maybe try to do other things at the
[00:31:01] same time. But essentially we just want to be there and participate and just drink it all in, in terms of any sort of performance goals. I really would love to, to finish and qualify for, for more years, whether I want to do more or not. Although I can see how this could be addictive, especially just like the vibe and the community and the people like coming back to camp every year and being like, Oh, there's the, you know, there's those guys. So I won't write off, you know, future ones, but I would love to not get injured because
[00:31:29] we're just kind of like leading up into the fall performance season at the red, which for me is focused on endurance. So I actually think like if done well, this event at, at hell and then like a really generous D load afterwards could probably flow into my like fall goals and all that at the red quite well. And then, yeah, I don't know if there's like, like Chris said, if there's a way for us to have a, like a little bit of a goal just to kind of motivate ourselves. Cause I, I like to push myself a bit.
[00:31:57] So if there's, if there's some sort of like little brass ring or goal or, or, or stretch goal that we could have on our minds to just keep us pushing at 5am, you know, whenever the darkest hour is, I'm sure you guys will let us know. I think that could be good too. So yeah, I'll just pass it back to you guys and, and you can put that through the preparation lens, however it feels right. Well, the other thing I'd say though, real quick, cause I don't want to, I'd also like,
[00:32:23] I'm not to kind of where I'm like going to just, you know, strategize the bare minimum and eek past. That's why I thought like the full horseshoe sounded cool. Like some extra little, little thing, it would be way more motivating than just like, well, what's the bare minimum we can do to like gasp over the finish line and, and qualify or whatever. So yeah, I'm far more. That's why I've been like interested in that kind of stuff. Yeah. I'm far more like, I'm, I'm fine with the bare minimum, but if, if Chris wants to push us.
[00:32:52] So the trad 55 sounds cool. I don't know. Yeah. We always joke around. We kind of say the trad 55 is kind of the bare minimum. We're always pretty surprised that like that number is not higher. Just because it's, although the double laps with the single laps now that has gotten a lot harder. There used to be, it used to be 60 trad laps, but you could do two on each route and you could pretty much do that and keep the grade five, eight and under and not really leave the North 40. Now that they've expanded to single laps, it's, I think it's quite a bit harder. Sure.
[00:33:22] Well, we do. I mean, not like we'll get into the training, but climbing trad during it is like a pretty good tactic as a way to like avoid waiting on routes. Cause not everyone is climbing. Can you mix? Oh yeah. Yeah. You can do whatever you want. Okay. So you can like, you, you climb 150 trad laps. If you want, you could do 25 and the rest sport. Like it doesn't really matter. So we'll use it as a way to like, if we're in an area where we know we want to get these
[00:33:50] five sport climbs and we've done four of them and we're waiting on one, we'll jump on a trad lap and then come back to that. If we have to. Second can, the gear can stay in you. The second can pinpoint. Yep. Right. So we don't typically, typically our aim needs everything. And then, and then I'll just follow and clean just from like an efficiency standpoint. I'm liking this caloose. Yeah. Yeah. I get to go first though, dog. Yeah. I get to be the one that places the gear. I've got to do, we'll have to have an internal rule where I'll have to like at least place
[00:34:19] like one piece of gear, you know, every two hours. There's a five, two trad. That's got your name all over it. Right. We're good. We're done. Let's be clear here. I learned to climb on trad out West, but I have grown soft with my placement since coming to the Red River Gorge. I will, I will concede that. And obviously Caloose is like a frigging expert with, with trad climbing. So I'll leave the nuts at home or should I bring them? Well, we'll talk about rack later. Hold on. Yeah. That's for sure. That's something to think about, but yeah, let's get back to just preparation. We got two months here. You know, we climb, we're training, that kind of thing.
[00:34:49] But like, is there anything uniquely beneficial for us to think about prior to showing up to the ranch? Yeah. So, I mean, if I was your coach, if I put my coach hat on, I would recommend the full horseshoe as it's a fantastic option to go for, for requalification. You get a little bit of everything. You're going to get to do a lot of pitches. You're going to get to experience the entire ranch because basically the full horseshoe covers everything. You get to see all the different zones.
[00:35:15] You'll get to climb a lot of different variety of climbs, some slabs and overhangs and splitter cracks and, you know, total jug halls, all of it, which is a great one. And then if you wanted a stretch goal, one that's a lot of fun is chasing the mile high club. So can you climb a vertical mile? You know, and, and that's got a lot harder with the single laps. So if that was, if that was me and I was preparing for that, I mean, you kind of want to, you know,
[00:35:41] I think it's a little bit more important rather than just being physically fit, which you guys climb a lot. So I think you'll have that, but getting your, your systems really dialed is to me almost a little bit more important. Like, are you efficient at, you know, climbing, trading the rope, whatever tactics you decide to go with, are they kind of honed in? And is that something you can maintain and sustain throughout the entire event? And then, you know, once you have those, you can take that to the, if you get an opportunity
[00:36:09] to climb together in the gym outside, maybe a couple of days, if you're at the ranch, a couple of days before the event, you know, go to a crag and practice it over 10, 20 routes, something like that, like that would be my recommendation in terms of how to prepare for, for the 24 hours. Yeah. And I think just to get like specifically into some of the training options, like obviously like arc training will be your friend with things like this, just time on the wall, like endurance. And then like we found that there's like hangboarding workouts that also work pretty well, where like
[00:36:38] you're taking weight off your maxing and just like doing triples and things like that. But bouldering triples also are good for stuff like this. Cause again, like you're not going to be, you're not climbing like super long routes. Most of the time that that is an option, obviously, if you're going for the mile high, some of that changes, but those are still probably like lower grade than what your capacity is. So like things like that work pretty well. And then obviously like, if you can climb, let's just say three, five, tens in a row in
[00:37:06] a gym, like then, you know, you can always say climb one outside. Right. So you can kind of build workouts around that where it's like, okay, well, we're going to go to the gym for two hours today and we'll do three laps before we trade, or we'll do five laps before we trade things like that with workout wise, like kind of help just tweak the training just a bit. So it's like, yes, obviously you're in good climbing shape, but it is like slightly different climbing shape. So if you kind of just adjust the workout to a bit for the next two months in that with that in mind, it definitely does help.
[00:37:35] What about the getting between crags and routes and all of that? Are you guys rocking or running or doing anything kind of general cardio or lower body training? So I don't, I played soccer still pretty actively. So that's like kind of like my endurance training. Ari probably ramps us up, but this man does quite a bit of scrambling and link up. So I think that's where a lot of his comes in, but it's not, you're not really, I don't want
[00:38:01] to speak for everyone, but I don't think like the hiking and like the approaches are really like, they shouldn't be the crux of it. Like the Canyon crossing is not that bad. And there's also like a way to sort of, you can go down and then come back up, but you can also, depending on what your path is, kind of go around and you stay pretty high. So like, I'll be pretty surprised if that ends up being the issue for you guys. And then like concentration of everything is most of it is actually like, you know, you're moving five, 10 feet and then there's another route.
[00:38:28] So, so the, the easiest way like to kind of train for the rucking that's necessary is actually just getting better on logistics, like for stashing your gear. Cause stashing is like kind of, especially if you're going to go for the horseshoe is like a really important aspect to consider. And one that we did not think about until we got there the first year, cause a volunteer told us, Hey, you probably don't want to carry all of your water and your ropes all the time. Cause those are heavy. So what a lot of people do, including ourselves and what's highly encouraged is
[00:38:58] like, you just sort of think about where your plan's probably going to take you and then stash like the heaviest things you can, like ropes, water, and like food, like all along that route. Right. And, you know, depending on what you're going for, you're, you might have a couple of stashes, you might have 12, right? So by doing that, it means that you're really only carrying like, you know, maybe a 30 meter rope and like your shoes, whatever's on your, your harness.
[00:39:28] And then like maybe a small bag with a little bit of water and snacks. So like the rucking, you can avoid having to train for that by just sort of like being strategic about where you put stashes around the Canyon. 30 meter rope will get it done. Depends on where you're at. Not everywhere. I'll let Ari dive into that for sure. Yeah. Let's, let's stick with training for just a second. Sorry. Okay. Cause I got a bunch of gear stuff. We can, we can put it in there. What do you guys think of the strategy of just purely relying on old man strength?
[00:39:58] Oh, you're good. You're good. Last year, Chris was the least amount of time I got outside on real rock just with my like production schedule and travel and everything. And just kind of used heart and will. And that was probably our best year, at least for me, my best year. So I think. How old is Dick Dower? Mid seventies. I think he's a young, a young seventies. Right. Yeah. This is a, because all these like training tips I've been hearing and options are not,
[00:40:27] I'm just like, yeah, that's not going to happen. Yeah. That's probably not going to happen. Yeah. But you're so like, I don't have a climbing gym, you know, I mean, if you're pulling on real rock, it's better than pulling on plastic. Like I think any day of the week, that's a better training plan. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I'll train. Get out to the, get out to rifle with Andrew and you guys can just practice some, some hell tactics where you, you know, you run a couple of laps on the same route without untying your rope. And that's, that'll, that'll probably suffice.
[00:40:56] That sounds good. This will, I think this will be a good experiment, Chris. Like we'll train like in Rocky four or whatever. We're like, I'll be Ivan Drago and I'm going to have like BFR bands and like sensors and like all that. And you're just going to go like pick up old, like logs and shit. And let's just meet out there and see how it goes. Just outside the store, I've been drywalling my bathroom. So that's, that's got me pretty pumped holding sheet on the ceiling and stuff. So totally. That'll kind of count. Shoulder muscles for days.
[00:41:25] All right, Chris, what else did you have in the training side before we, we move on to tactics? No, that's kind of it. I'm good. Okay. Yeah. Cause I think tactics, I appreciate you kind of bringing that into the fold here, Rob, because we can, we can climb a lot smarter and save probably plenty of skin and stamina and all that than climbing harder. We're talking about 24 hours. You guys said it's a 10 AM start. So there's a lot of daylight, obviously walk us through kind of the, the biggest mistakes
[00:41:55] that a noob would make that maybe you guys made that you already mentioned one about like carrying your gear everywhere. And we've talked about rope length, which you get weave into this as well. But, you know, what have you guys seen over the years or what are kind of commonly considered as, as like the biggest energy sucks or mistakes one can make starting from 10 AM or maybe even before like kind of the sleep or the preparation that goes into before the event even kicks off? I would say the number one mistake you could make would probably be to wear the wrong shoes.
[00:42:25] If you only, if you are in uncomfortable shoes for 24 hours, like you are in a lot of trouble. So that's probably the number one. I mean, we, Okay. So what's a, what's a good shoe? Obviously a wrong shoe would be something that's too aggressive or tight or whatever, like a performance shoe. So like what's a good shoe for the, the sandstone out there and just comfort for 24 hours of climbing. Sure. And Ryan, I know you're a Scarpa man and I also rock Scarpa. So I rock a pair of the Helixes sized up like one and a half sizes with some socks because your
[00:42:55] feet are going to swell. Those I can wear almost the entire 24 hours and I still get pretty good performance out of them. It's pretty rare that I feel like that is going to cost me. The other thing that we got recommended from Vazia and Rob who have like a lot of the records there was the Scarpa geckos as an approach shoe. They're really comfy and they also climb pretty dang well. So that would be, those are two of my favorites. Rob's tried a few other things.
[00:43:20] Wait, so, so are people sometimes just climbing in approach shoes on, on the easier climbs? Yeah, we did. When we did the 36 hour, we did the 36 hours once and we did like all trout in the 12 and we were kind of really dropping the hammer on that. We probably climbed 85% of the routes just in our approach shoes for that. So like if you can, you know, find approach shoes that you're comfortable climbing in, like that can help you a lot. But yeah, the Helixes are great.
[00:43:49] I wear the Mythos right now, but I've also worn the Helix during it. Sometimes I'll wear toe socks. That kind of seems to help as well. We got that from Jeremy Collins. But yeah, the approach shoe beta can be very important because there are a lot of easy climbs. So I think the other thing too is like have a pair of shoes that is easy to put on and off. Like that being said, Ari and I are both wearing shoes that have laces. But like if you have a pair of Velcro shoes that you like that are really cozy or like moccasins,
[00:44:17] not having to tie laces like can save your skin a little bit as well too if you are untying them a lot. Yeah, that's cool. I have a pair of like big Helixes. I call them my clown shoes. Like I wear them like with socks for long days out or warmups, but they are lace. I don't think the Helix makes a Velcro, but I could also just get like a really big pair of, I don't know, something that's like a little bit more chill. If you've already got a pair of big Helixes, I think you have your hell shoes. If I was going to try.
[00:44:46] I don't take mine off for, you know, maybe at least 12 hours, you know, so I'll just keep them on for a good period of time. I got you because it's really tight spacing you're saying. So you'll just like try to clean up a crag and you're just moving five feet, five feet, five feet. So you'll just keep them in, keep them on, belay in them, walk over to the next route, climb. And then if you're hiking across the horseshoe, you'll change to an approach shoe. Got it. And I think that kind of mentions, Ari mentioned like one of the biggest mistakes is shoes. I think another big mistake is not walking the canyon ahead of time.
[00:45:16] So like if you have the guidebook, like kind of figuring out obviously what your plan is, but then like kind of looking at all the different crags, like, okay, I think this is probably where we're going to do this. This is, these are like, this five routes might be good. Cause trying to like decide what you're doing in the moment or like pivoting in the moment without like an understanding of where you can and can't go gets a little tricky at, you know, 1130 at night.
[00:45:42] We're going to Chris, I think like our flights get us in at like 4 PM Thursday and the thing's Friday at 10 AM. So we might, this might be a, uh, we'll do it live. Bill O'Reilly moment out there. Okay. Yeah. Where do you guys fly into Fayetteville? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Maybe, maybe get a, get the guidebook and take a look just so you haven't booked my ticket yet, actually. So I could come in early. Can we know?
[00:46:12] Cause we're sharing a car and we're sharing a ride. I booked my ticket based on your ticket, based on your flight options. I didn't book my ticket yet, dog. I know, but I booked mine and I sent it to you. Cause you told me when we were talking, the 130 arrival or something like that. And then we got to rent the car and drive. And it's like two hour drive. Yeah, no, I did not say that, but that's okay. Cause I hadn't decided whether I was going to fly to Aspen or out of, out of, out of, anyway, we talked about later. Well, let me know. Look, it's already, look, the wheels are already coming off. The, the, the ends are already fraying here.
[00:46:42] We haven't even, it's not even our, you know, 13 yet. Protecting number three, make sure you're on the same page with your partner. Yeah. Right. The good news is like, you can survive this with botching tactics. I mean, we, we did not do anything particularly well the first year and we're still here. Can we just like, you know, like the running back has a blocker. Can we just find a team that knows what they're doing and just follow them around all night? It could work.
[00:47:09] You do, you do tend to like end up seeing the same people throughout the comp. Like you kind of have like a few different belay buddies, if you will, because like typically where you start is sort of based on whatever your strategy is or is not. And then like, obviously there's a lot of people there. So someone's going to be kind of climbing like the same level. So yeah, you sort of run into the same people. It's funny because the mood's very different when it's, you know, 1145 in the morning on
[00:47:37] the first day or like 8 PM on the first day or 2 AM in the middle of the East side and no one's over there. So yeah, you definitely get some, some friends along the way. Yeah. Let's continue down this, this road of like kind of biggest new, new mistakes. If you guys have any, any others, I've got a long list. I know Chris does just kind of in terms of the tactics and gear, and especially if we're going to try and tackle the horseshoe. But what else are you seeing as kind of common mistakes for, for first timers?
[00:48:07] Well, we, our first year tied in and out every route. And I would not recommend doing that. It just takes quite a bit of time. And also that just like your fingers are screaming by the end of it, like untying a figure eight and tying back in. So we do a figure eight on a bite and we clip it through our harness. And that one saves quite a bit of time. You do obviously have to pull it that side, but like that is negligible compared to the time you will lose eventually at some point, like retying in.
[00:48:34] And there's a couple other methods to do, but we found like that one works pretty well for us. I think another big one is like stash more water than you think you need because. So, so hold on. Let me, let me pause you there for a second. So you're putting a figure eight on a bite with a, like a locker on the one side. The other side is the belay side that stays free. So the, the first climber is lowered down and who's pulling rope. Like how, how is this transition working? So our system, if I'm the climber, I climb the route.
[00:49:04] I hit the ground when he lowers me and I immediately, he takes me off belay and I immediately start pulling the rope from my side. Once I get about 10, 15 feet, I'll hand it off. Well, this was when we were doing double laps. I guess now that it's single laps, I would then just put the carabiner on Rob's harness. We pull the rope. And once we got 10, 20 feet of rope pulled down, he would start climbing. I'd finish pulling the rope. And then by the time he's at bolt one or bolt two, maybe I've got him on belay.
[00:49:31] So it's, that allows you to never have to untie and retie. And that's where having a shorter rope or a rope that's like the shortest you can get away with for a particular area can be really helpful because every extra meter you've gotten your rope is an extra meter you have to pull. And basically pulling an extra 10 meters over a hundred routes, like adds up to quite a bit of rope that you have to pull. So we've kind of, you can typically get away with a 40 meter rope, almost anywhere in the
[00:50:00] ranch, the North 40, a lot of the routes get, you can do a 30 meter. And then a couple of routes in the West side or the East side might require like a 45 or maybe a 50, but we'll usually have like a, depending on what our goal is for that year, we'll have like, you know, a 40 stashed on the East side and a 40 stashed on the West side and like a 30 stashed in the North 40 or something like that. So we usually bring a couple of different ropes. Cause then you, again, if you're crossing the Canyon, you don't have to carry one. Yeah. I mean, double check the knot though on the figure eight on a bike.
[00:50:30] Cause we did have one year where the first climb, like we raced to it and I climbed up, clipped in and then I climbed to the second bolt, clipped it. And then my knot untied like mid climb. So then I had to like catch it and I climb up to the third one. I had a ledge and like retie. So like definitely check the knots as our friend Chris would say before you kind of go quest off, but that's more of like, once you get it down once, that thing will get welded. It's not coming undone anytime soon. Yeah. The safe, the safety of it is really comes to mind.
[00:50:59] Cause like number one priority is not get hurt for, for the climbing season, but also just like for life. And I could see that being tired and wanting to rush and all this, the systems can kind of go out the door. And so I would air towards the side of having a longer rope in case we accidentally hop on a route that's next to one that we thought we were on and it's 10 meters longer or, you know, cause obviously in this scenario, you're not nodding the ends of the belay side. So like worst case scenario is like that rope slips through the gris gris and somebody,
[00:51:28] you know, it takes a ground hit, but there's probably some other safety scenarios, especially when people are getting tired that are worth considering. Chris, do you have any thoughts or questions on kind of the transition that they were talking about there and just the systems in general to move efficiently, but also safely? No, I mean, we'll just get more tips, I guess, but you know, I've been thinking about that, like how, how to make that transition super fast, but I've, I've always thought about
[00:51:53] this, this event and just how there's not more carnage because, you know, going fast means cutting some corners. And like one of the corners is you don't have a knot in the end of the rope. I mean, that's, you know, and just, yeah. And then the fatigue and the going really, really fast just in general, you know, can lead up to a cascading effect of accidents is, and I'm just like, how is it not that
[00:52:18] there's just like full on ambulances arriving like every, every few hours to pick somebody up? I don't know. It's just my thought on safety. Yeah. Or is there? There's, there haven't been too many accidents. I mean, every once in a while, somebody takes a bad fall, you know, hits something on the way down or, or it can happen, but you know, like for our system, for example, you know, the locking carabiner, I think as you get more fatigued makes the checking of your
[00:52:47] knot since the knot never changes a lot easier. Like, you know, flip it around your harness. It's, it's one of the, we use one of those, like we don't use a screw gate. We use a, a twist lock. So yeah. So essentially, you know, up sideways and open. And so that way, once it's around, there's no like checking that my, my knot is, is tied correctly because I know the carabiners around my belay loop. So that, yes, you also, I would say that another, another good tip is to come up with some sort
[00:53:17] of code word, because this can be a problem when you're in a busy area and you know, you get to the top of a route and you say, Hey, take, you know, there's 18 other parties around you that are also saying the same thing. So we have our own kind of code words that like we say, grip it and rip it. And basically we know that when we hear that, that's my partner telling me to take, you know, take tight of the rope. So having your own little, and you'll hear other people have their own things like that. That can be another one to kind of minimize any communication errors that could occur.
[00:53:44] So, so just coming up with a system that you and your partner feel comfortable with, and that it's something you can replicate without any issue on repeat is something I would recommend. And then practice that a little bit, like know that, you know, this is how it's going to work and this is how it's going to look pretty much every time. And we're never going to change that. Can I suggest Roomba? The word Roomba as part of our code? You can suggest anything. Two words. You need two words, Chris. Well, I'm just saying we'll start with Roomba. Roomba on, Roomba off.
[00:54:13] There you go. You know what? Let's workshop some things offline here. All right. Okay. We're going to loop back and try to find some synergies on this one. I think workshopping showing up earlier than we think we are should be on our list. They're like, yeah, and practice this and practice that together and practice this together. And it's like, yeah, in the car on the way from our flights. We got families. We got stuff to do.
[00:54:41] I mean, I'm going to see you in Squamish a few weeks before this. And so maybe we can- Oh, fuck, dude. That's right. All right. Hell, we'll go- Dude, we'll do it up there. We'll just find a way of climbing, Jim. Pick two or three routes and then work on your system there and get dialed. Great idea. Sorry, I forgot I was going to see you. It doesn't take that much to get it dialed, but that'll help you work out any of the kinks that might occur and you'll feel good about your system. Yeah, right. We're good. That's where we can workshop Roomba. I just- Yeah. I just relaxed a lot.
[00:55:11] Oh, good. Okay. All right. Let's continue forward because I'm thinking here, and I'm sorry if I'm jumping all over the place, but my mind is just going to different things. I'm thinking about if we're doing the horseshoe and I don't want to bake, we're going to start in the shade. I'm assuming a lot of people are going to start in the shade and we're going to want to go for easy routes because we want to kind of stay fresh. But is there a general strategy with like, do you do harder routes earlier while you're
[00:55:38] fresher or do you try to do a ton of volume while you're still awake and then kind of slow down? Like, how do you guys think about structuring the difficulty of your climbs and the types of climbs that you're taking on from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. to 4 a.m. to 10 a.m.? Yeah. I mean, it's all goal dependent, obviously. So like sometimes your goals will limit that, but let's just say that that doesn't really dictate too much of it. Then yeah, sure.
[00:56:05] Front loading, like the first, let's say a third of the comp with more of the difficult routes that you're going to do will certainly be a good idea because especially because you can kind of break them up with like, okay, now we need to rest on this. But I think the big thing is understanding what grade you both think will be kind of like your max grade during the comp that you're at least willing to try. And then that will sort of, I think, help guide like when you do and don't do those. But yeah, we certainly aren't.
[00:56:35] I think the hardest we've climbed in the comp was like a 12a. And it's like there's a couple of soft routes at any grade throughout the canyon. So it's like understanding, okay, if that's what we're going to go for, how do we want to build our whole strategy around that? But I think for the most part, it's just like making sure you know what your top end is going to be and then choosing that, like, especially if you guys are doing the horseshoe, like you're going to sort of travel probably in like a clockwise or counterclockwise direction.
[00:57:03] You're probably not going to backtrack too much. So then I think once you kind of know, okay, well, we want to do, you know, a couple at this grade to help with the points total, like just sort of pick a few along the way in the first third. And then you'll kind of be able to judge it from there is what I would say. What do you think, Ari? Yeah, well said. We've changed up our strategy. I mean, as we've gotten to know the ranch pretty well, like depending on the goal, we'll, you know, pick a different starting area or maybe like last year we did, we went for a lot more harder routes.
[00:57:33] So we kind of did a lap down the North 40 where we were doing mostly like 10s and 11s. And then after about four or five hours, we hit our turn back point and then we didn't climb anything that hard for basically the rest of the comp. So a little bit of a front load there, but that was just situational based on our goal. So it'll be a little bit trickier if you're doing the horseshoe, you know, sometimes you just can't avoid having to climb a 5.8 or 5.9 late in the night, but you should be able
[00:58:00] to keep the grade, I think sub 5.10 without too many issues on the full horseshoe, which you both climb, you know, hard enough that I don't think you'll ever be in a situation where hopefully you're presented with a route that's way too hard given the time of day. Well, I did do, there's an event here at the Red called Ryad. So Red in a Day kind of based on Nyad, right? So it's 31 pitches that you're supposed to do as fast as you can.
[00:58:28] And so I did 31 pitches in a few hours, but like one of the last ones we did was a 10C and I like epic'd on it. I fell twice. I had to, I had to basically climb it three times. Like I was full power screaming as if it was like a 13A or something. But I think that was, that was bad tactics on our part. Cause we did like all of the five fours first and then like ended at like the longest, most challenging crag. So yeah, I think if you can avoid something that's a little bit more sustained, I guess,
[00:58:57] where you're just going to be hanging on your arms for a long time towards the end, like that would be recommended. I know for me, I'll just start maybe cramping up a little bit or just my ability to, to hang my body weight on my arms versus put it through my feet. You know, I'd, I'd rather be standing through my feet as it gets later in the comp. So saving slabs for, for the end of the day or, or vert routes. Slabs or those one move wonders, or you can tell it's kind of like a boulder problem followed by maybe some more moderate climbing. Got it.
[00:59:26] I think the other thing to keep in mind too, is like, if you ever get on a route, that's like way too difficult for that particular time of day, like there's plenty of routes that you can kind of make up for it with throughout the Canyon, unless it's like a, we need, you know, this five 13 for whatever reason. Like, I don't think that would be the case. It's certainly not the case for us, you know, but I mean, like our, I think our goals are probably more of like a volume based game. Right.
[00:59:53] So it's like, okay, if you get on a five nine or a five 10, that's like a little, a little more sustained as already mentioned, and it's worth the squeeze. It's like, okay, cool. We don't do that again. We get to the next one. Keep moving. I think the name of the game is really just like, how do you continue to keep moving? Like you asked about micro naps earlier on in the conversation. We always like highly advise against doing that because for us, like we've found like
[01:00:20] the second we stopped moving is like, that's when like you start feeling everything that you're just sort of suppressing during it. So if you can kind of wait to like find a way to keep like a steady pace and that even involves like while you're eating, just like figuring out how to do it while you're belaying or just like kind of keeping everything consistently going forward. That's the biggest name in the game as opposed to like, okay, well, like how do we perfectly time when I'm doing this cruxy move? Kalus, what's on your mind here? I've got like 55 other things.
[01:00:49] Well, I wanted to ask about rack. What's your rack suggestion? Yeah. Cause we're talking about, we're talking about draws, right? There's no, there's no perms I'm assuming, right? So you're either placing draws or if you're doing a trad climb, you're placing gear and we want to carry around the least amount of weight as possible, right? And the least amount of protection if we're doing trad routes. And then I guess there's stashing as well. So yeah, what's, what's the, I mean, we're going to be onsiding everything. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:01:18] So you, you'll be pleasantly surprised or pleasantly surprised, Ryan, that there's plenty of perma draws at the ranch. Perma draw five eights, perma draw five nines. It's pretty sick, but yes, you, you do want to carry draws. I don't know, Rob, what do we carry? We usually carry like a dozen draws and that's pretty much enough to climb basically everything at the ranch. Yeah. There's a couple like orange crush has 14 draws, but I think, I don't know if that stayed perma. I know that one guy put them in one year, but I don't know if it stayed, but you can avoid,
[01:01:46] you know, you can go as tall or as, as short as you want. But yeah, I mean anywhere in the 12 to 14 on your harness will be fine. We do like to keep a couple extra in case like there's a chance typically already leads and then I'll clean. But like, sometimes it just makes sense for me to jump on something right away. So we like to have a couple extra if you can. And then we will also like, if we are going to do a Canyon crossing, we'll usually stash a second set of draws and a second single rack across the Canyon, just so we're not carrying
[01:02:15] that across the Canyon. If that makes sense. But otherwise like that works out pretty well. And then Ari can probably dive into the rack a lot better than I can. Yeah. Depending on where you're climbing, you can pretty much get away with the single rack. There are a lot of wider, I guess, like corners and stuff that sometimes having like a number four and number five can be pretty helpful. If you don't want to carry that, it just, they're pretty obvious to avoid, but usually you can, you can supplement with, you know, some smaller cams here and there.
[01:02:42] I usually bring a singles from like, maybe like a 0.2 to a number two or number three. And then one set of stoppers is usually plenty for me. Also carry a few Alpines, maybe like a single or a double length sling. Cause there's quite a lot of like big chicken heads. You can wrap those slings around as protection. If you are climbing trad on the West side. Now this can be where the guidebook is handy. Like if you're climbing any of the more splitter cracks, having some doubles and some of the,
[01:03:10] some of those sizes can be helpful, like maybe number two or number three. Although those, those climbs are pretty tough for hell. Chris, you might walk right up them, but Rob and I get our butts kicked. So, well, the closest thing I've done to this is 50, 50 routes in, in Indian Creek and about 16 hours. So yeah, a crack climb feels pretty good to me, but, but I, but long, you know, if they're long too, like I get how the fatigue builds up really quickly. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:03:39] So we'll just have to discuss Chris on, I mean, I guess it makes sense to bring the rack because we'll, it'll likely allow us to, to tackle more routes in a zone. No, we want to climb trad for sure. Okay. So we'll mix them, but you brought something up there, Rob, just about the kind of leading versus cleaning. Right. Right. And whether kind of you swing leads on every one, because obviously, you know, somebody's going to want to take a little rest and that's traditional to like climb a pitch, but does
[01:04:09] it also make sense from an efficiency standpoint? If you're coming down having cleaned and now I've got 10 draws on my harness and I'm not tired because it was a short route or whatever. Like, do you just hop on the next one? And, and the belayer stays the belayer and you know, or, or are you swapping? There is this, is one person predominantly leading the entire 24 hours or are you just mixing things up? So I guess just to clarify, I said lead, but I meant like, obviously we're all leading. So hanging the draws versus cleaning the draws. I'm sorry. Yes. Yeah.
[01:04:39] Yeah. But that stemmed from like when we started it, you used to be able to do two laps on every route each. So it made sense because Ari could do two and then he'd come down and then I would do two. So like you kind of, like you mentioned, like you might still be fresh after one last year was the first year where it switched to single laps. So I think that's where like we started having some of those conversations. Like, do we want to just swap every time? And then it's two blocks of two. And sometimes we do do that.
[01:05:06] I think the short answer is like, it, there is no right formula. It's all depends on like what feels better for you guys and what feels better for every team. I think we're just in that rhythm of having done it for five years prior to last year. And now having done it six, we're like, we know when our feet hit the ground for this one, we're switching it, we're pulling. And then that also allows us to sort of prep for the transition to the next route as well. And so some of that stuff is sort of just on autopilot for us, but it doesn't really matter
[01:05:34] how you do it as long as you kind of are both on the same page about it. Because for us, it's nice. Like we don't really have to talk about it in the conversation or during the competition. Like it just sort of happens because we've just done it so many times now. So like if you guys are on the same page and don't have to decide as you're doing it, then either way works. And there are still routes where we'll do that as well too. Right. Yeah. And there may be an opportunity where you're at a crag and there's less people there and you got two or three routes right next to each other that are all somewhat short and you're feeling good.
[01:06:03] You can, you can kind of go like zigzag, you know, go up, hang the draws, come down, hang the draws on the next one, hang the draws on the next one. And then your partner does all three right after. And it's a pretty efficient way to get it done. You know, if you have the draws for it and the energy, but yeah, like Rob said, we'll fluctuate, you know, sometimes it'll be like, oh man, that pitch kicked my ass. Like I'm going to need a little bit more of a break. And so he might take a couple of pitches, you know, while I get a break or something like that. But you'll, I think you'll start to 24 hours is long enough that you'll start to kind of
[01:06:31] find this flow where it's like, oh, one of us is a little bit faster at hanging the draws and one of us a little bit faster cleaning the draws. So maybe we'll stick with that or maybe we're about even. So we'll just do what you said where I'll lead one. My partner cleans. They, they go up the next one. Then I clean. And yeah, you'll find it. Let's, if we could, I'd love to talk about like pacing a little bit there. Cause you're like 24 hours is a long time. And you know, we got, we know the bare minimum is we need to each do one every hour, but we also know that if we're going for a hundred, it's obviously more than that.
[01:07:01] And the horseshoe adds another element just of kind of logistics to try to tack off, take off routes in different zones. Keeping that in mind, that's as, as that's what Chris and I are kind of identifying as our goals here, talk us through just what the experience is like as the day and the night and then the morning goes on and what kind of the body is going through and what that means in terms of just
[01:07:26] pacing and maybe managing pace kind of new mistakes, if you will, across 24 hours. Yeah. And that's an excellent question. I mean, you're always going to start the day or the 24 hours with more energy. Like the one nice thing that happens is on the hour, every hour, everyone does a little howl. So the whole Canyon, everybody will, you know, how like a wolf. And so you kind of get a sense of like, Oh, how many routes did we get in that? You know, how will the howl period.
[01:07:55] And that can be a nice way to kind of keep an internal pace going. And, and of course, as things go on, like as we get into the night, we'll slow down a little bit for me, it's all about continuing to move and not like, I don't ever want to sit down. Cause if I sit down, I start to get tired. I don't want to get back up. It becomes harder. I noticed my feet are hurting a lot more things like that. So just finding like, even if we're moving slow, as long as we're continuing to move,
[01:08:20] that to me is, is really helpful for managing, like not getting too sleepy or anything like that. And then you're going to really have to rely on your partner. I mean, it's kind of inevitable that at least once, maybe a couple of times, you're going to kind of hit a low point or a bonk and you can kind of feel it coming. And that's when your partner is really handy to kind of like keep you psyched and like maybe shoulder a little bit more of the load or like hang the draws on a few more pitches or carry the backpack or something like that. Like kind of whatever you can do to keep your partner moving. So they get through that bonk.
[01:08:50] And then when you're in the bonk, they can kind of help you out. So that's a little, hopefully that answered the question. Yeah. Try not to bonk at the same time as the takeaway. Yeah. You're in trouble. To add to that too, you know, like little things go a long way. Like obviously another very important factor of this is like making sure you have enough calories going in and enough water going in. Right. So like if you can stay ahead of that and like, again, a good way to do that is to have more stashes than you need, but like, you know, carrying everything is fine too.
[01:09:20] But like if you're eating before you're hungry and if you're drinking before you're thirsty, like that also helps as well too. And like same thing with caffeine, just kind of having like a steady drip. But what's working for you guys are just kind of in, in, if there's a general way to break down like what you're eating. So examples of what you're stashing, drinking, and then yeah, caffeine or other. Yeah. So like cocaine, cocaine was what was coming to mind. I was going to say, is there drug testing? Psychedelic mushrooms, whatever you're feeling, right? No.
[01:09:50] Wait, wait, wait. The cocaine thing is a big part of climbing's past that nobody wants to talk about, by the way. Oh yeah. I mean, bring it to the forefront, Chris, this could, this could be your platform. I'm just saying like a lot of big roots back in the day, you know, cocaine, it wasn't just weed. If it's part of. I know like several big things in the black were done fully, you know, on, on the marching powder. So anyhow. I think if, I think if it's, if it's on theme, right? Like if we're wearing the tights. For Tony. Yeah.
[01:10:20] Okay. Oh yeah. 80s style. Yeah. Yeah. I think if it's part of the overall theme. Well, anyway, we'll, we'll talk offline on it. Yeah. Talk us through how you guys are. We could be Sonny and what's the guys from the Miami Vice, but I think that one of those would get us canceled. Okay. I thought you were going to say Sonny and Cher. And I was like, I'm Cher. That worked too for the cocaine thing. Anyway. I know. Maybe, maybe the team name needs to become the cocaine Cowboys and you guys just have a little something extra in your chalk bag. I like it. We just go right at it. Yeah. Straight. Great.
[01:10:50] Not hiding anything. No. Nothing to see here. Anyway, sorry. Interrupt you, Ron. We'll leave the cocaine out, but it'll be implied. We'll just use code word caffeine. Yeah. And how are you guys thinking about that over the course of 24 hours? Yeah. So that's the other thing too is like, you know, with kind of keeping the food like constantly coming in, you do have to think about like, what can I actually eat for 24 hours straight? So we like to have like a bit of a variety of like things like they're a little more boring,
[01:11:19] like rice lentils and like teriyaki sauce and things like that. So you're getting carbs right away. But then like having like what we call happy food, right? Where it's like, I can eat this at any hour. And like that for us is like brownies and like overnight oats with jelly and honey in them is like a pretty good combo as well too. Obviously we have like some of like the electrolyte, caffeine, jelly bean type stuff as well too.
[01:11:44] And then what we do with our water stashes is we usually have like water, Gatorades or like electrolyte tablets that we're dropping in. And then some of those have caffeine as well too. And then we'll have energy drinks and coconut water. So we just kind of like mix and match those. So like kind of as we get to a stash, we're getting like a variety of that as well too. But kind of over-indexing on too much of like the, I guess, nutritional value food, like the rice lentils and like all of that,
[01:12:13] or over-indexing the other direction on too much happy food and like only eating sugar. Like we've kind of found, and I would say I've definitely found that that can be a kind of a recipe for disaster. Yeah, I appreciate that. That's actually making me think a lot. So now Chris, we got to get in there and we got to like prepare rice and shit too. So this is like, this is, I'm so glad we're having this conversation. We literally showed up with like no gear, no plan, one rope. That's a 70. Cause like, why not bring the 70?
[01:12:43] And you know, just, this is your, you guys are really like saving our hides on this one here in terms of just the, I don't know. Wait, wait though. I would say that there would be something fucking cool though. If we had just marched in blank and just been like, we got two huge packs on with all our shit. But yeah, 40 goose, you know, 40 goose, 80 meter rope, you know, double rack. Chris, I think you guys should go for PB and J's and cocaine only as your diet. And then you guys have the 80 meter rope. You're good to go. Yeah.
[01:13:13] You blow the line off the bread and then eat the, eat the. You just throw the sandwich away. Nobody has an appetite. So, so our first year, we essentially did that. We showed up, we packed our bags. We had, maybe we had a 60, but I think it was a 60 meter rope and we had planned to hike to one side and then hike to the other. And somebody told us the night before, they're like, yeah, usually people like go stash their ropes and their packs and their water and stuff elsewhere.
[01:13:40] So the only thing that we did was we went and put our bag at our start, but we carried everything and tied into every route. And we did wear comfy shoes, so we didn't make that mistake. But I can tell you it's a lot more fun when you've got your systems dialed. Yeah. It's like, the short answer is like, it's, it's more fun when you don't have to think about the logistics because like, it's already kind of handled ahead of time and you just get to focus on climbing. But yeah, we had a 70 meter that year, Ari, because we were using my purple rope. I remember that. That was terrible.
[01:14:07] Well, you know, there's a certain type of light, like climbing life where you have a rope and you certainly aren't going to fucking cut it, you know? Like, cause it's your rope, like this is your rope and these are your shoes and that's like what you have. And it's, you know what I mean? So it's not like everybody out there is willing to go into their garage and start, you know, cutting 20 meters or 30 meters off of their ropes just for this thing. But we are. Yeah, I am. I mean, I need a gym rope anyway, so I'm happy to like chop one of mine in half.
[01:14:37] But we'll have to talk about like where we're leaving different things. So you were night before, let me, cause this is my main issue that's crawling around in my brain right now, Ryan, is our timing. So you said that they said the night before, did you go stash, were you able to go stash that night or did you do it in the morning? We did it in the morning. Okay. Yeah, so like, well, now it's a bit of both. It just depends on which food. Yeah. That first year we ran up in the morning.
[01:15:07] I mean, you have a couple hours, you know, the roll call starts around nine. So usually like come not or come that morning, we'll run up to some of our stashes and add some food or something. Are we talking about because of refrigeration? Are you keeping things cold? Yeah, no. We keep it cold until we stash it. Yeah. And then once we stash it, we just hope it's good enough. But, you know, if you put PB&Js or something out there, I don't think you'd have an issue. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:15:33] And then just, this is like probably such a stupid question, but like if everybody's stashing, and I don't even know, maybe you could enlighten us with how many participants there are. Is there an ethic about how you stash and how you label and this kind of thing so we're not just like, I don't know, upsetting the status quo? Definitely want to mark your stuff. So, I mean, people will use buckets or bags or whatever. We usually just put our team name written on some tape. I mean, the number one rule is just to clean up after yourself.
[01:16:02] So, if you, you know, at the end, go back through and make sure that you pick up all the crap that you left out there. Yeah. But, no, you can basically put anything anywhere. I mean, I wouldn't leave it open to the animals. So, make sure it's nice and sealed. Yeah, it's a ranch. So, there's quite a few like goats and horses just wandering about the property. So, if you do leave something unattended, like it can disappear, especially overnight. But, yeah, I mean, ethics-wise, I already mentioned it, like it's clean up after yourself. And then everyone's doing it, like you said. Or most people are doing it. You'll be surprised.
[01:16:32] There's quite a bit of people that don't. But, so no one's really, you don't have to worry about any of your stuff disappearing. Like, it'll be where you left it, if that makes sense. Got it. And I should add this. There are some water fill-up stations around the ranch. And some, you know, like Red Bulls. We'll like leave some Red Bulls out at like certain spots. And places where you can get a little bit of snacks. And volunteers will often have things. I wouldn't rely on that. But, like, you know, as long as you're carrying some empty containers with you, there are opportunities to refill them.
[01:17:01] What tends to be the darkest hour, the darkest moment? I'm talking emotionally and maybe physically in the event. And how do you deal with that? The darkness before dawn, isn't it? Well, it depends on the year. Like, I've bonked at 8 p.m. before, which is not a good time to start bonking. You definitely want to be bonking when it's dark, not when there's daylight. That's a problem.
[01:17:27] But I would say, like, 3.30 in the morning to, like, 5 a.m. is usually kind of grim. I'd say, like, on average. It sort of depends a little bit. But, like, because you know, like, you've been climbing for a while. But you also know you still have, you know, like, seven hours left at 3 a.m. But the nice thing about that is, like, when you get that first little hint of, like, daylight breaking through, it's, I mean, there's your shot of cocaine, Chris. Like, that stuff just lights you up. You're good to go at that point.
[01:17:56] But, yeah, like, after 3 a.m., it starts to get. It depends on where you're at, too. Like, that's the other aspect of it. Like, if you're in the North 40 at that time, there's a lot more people. There's music going. There's, you know, people are in glow sticks and stuff like that sometimes. But, like, if you're on the east side at 3 a.m., you might find yourself being the only ones at a particular crag. So your goals sort of dictate when the darkest hour will come. And that's, like, for better or worse. Yeah. Yeah, Rick.
[01:18:25] I mean, usually, like I said, it's darkness before dawn. You're just like, yeah. Yeah, I mean, if you're at the end there. You've got more experience. And then the sun comes back up and it does recharge you for sure. Literally, you know. So we need that. We need that orb thing, even if sometimes it is the worst thing in the world. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure it's such a good feeling when that happens because just the communal stoke when that happens, I'm sure, is really cool. Like, just the crew out there is going to be so excited.
[01:18:53] And, Chris, you've certainly been benighted more than I have, which is zero times. So I'll be following your lead through these dark times here. But I'm really psyched on it. I mean, I tend to do, I personally just tend to do really well with all-nighters and pushing my body. I've never done it on the side of a wall. But you're not really, like, we're climbing a pitch and then you're, like, walking around and all that stuff.
[01:19:14] And so, like, in terms of just being able to push through the night, there will certainly be, like, a bonk and, like, some grim moments, no doubt. But that's part of it. I think that's part of the experience. And I actually invite it and look forward to it as long as we're just, like, supporting each other and pushing through. And the thing, too, Rob, is that when you resolve the bonk, like, you get, it's like jet fuel again. You know what I mean?
[01:19:39] Like, you bonk and then when you come out of it, it's like, yeah, your body kind of starts to eat itself or whatever. And it just is like, yeah, let's keep going, dude. Yeah, yeah. Which can make for, like, a pretty interesting partner dynamic when one of you gets fired up and the other one's kind of not on the same page. Rob and I have had some moments where I think one of us looked at the other one and we're like, what are you doing here? We've got some friends that have joined in on the circus the past couple years.
[01:20:05] And one of them, our buddy BJ, got us all carabiners last year with, like, a little engraving on it just, like, as, like, nicknames. And, like, he cleaned all of their routes, so he was called the janitor. I don't remember. I think Ari may have been Rope Grungrotier, but they put Bobby Bonks on mine. So I have a history of hitting a wall, but I think Ari knows, like, I'm willing to keep running through a wall even if it hurts. So he's seen me at some pretty dark, dark times, to say the least.
[01:20:34] Can you tell me what the, like, the overnight low temperature is like? Or, you know, what changes from 10 a.m. to then 3 a.m. in terms of how we need to prepare? Yeah, typically you can climb. I mean, I don't know. Everybody's body is a little different in terms of how they react to the temperatures. But oftentimes we've been pretty comfortable in, like, leggings and tank top or no shirt almost all night.
[01:20:58] Every once in a while it'll get, we'll actually have good conditions where it'll be, like, you know, 70 or 80 during the day. And then it'll get a little cooler at night. And I've never had the, I've never wanted to wear, like, a long sleeve or anything like that. But sometimes you can get that, like, you know, where you climb a couple pitches and then you start sweating. And then you stand there and belay. And then the sweat gets cold on your body and you get a little bit chilly. I have had that experience a couple of times. But you're kind of trading on and off quickly enough that it's never presented as much of an issue.
[01:21:28] Especially with the single laps. I think that was definitely more of an issue with the double laps where, like, you're belaying two pitches of, like, an 85-foot route or something like that. Like, on the single pitches, I don't think we really encountered that much last year. But yeah. Yeah, you're just kind of, like, keeping that internal body temperature is more consistently up. So you're kind of heated from the inside there. And then, obviously, headlamps and just one headlamp will carry you through the night. Or are you stashing a headlamp on either side? I try to...
[01:21:57] We kind of always have at least one backup between the two of us. So, like, at least three headlamps. But, like, extra batteries is pretty important just in case. Because the last thing you want is your headlamp to crap out. And then you're just like, well, now what? Right. Yeah, there's always a moment where you kind of don't realize your headlamp is dying until you change the batteries. And you're like, what have I been doing for the last few hours? Yeah, totally. I know that feeling too, yeah. It's like, wow. Wow. I can see. That's awesome.
[01:22:26] So always have an extra set of batteries for sure. Yeah, even, like, you know, like, when you're belaying, a lot of times you'll flip your headlamp up to help your partner see a bit. And then when you start climbing, sometimes you'll forget to flip it down. And you're like, man, I can't see these feet hold. Like, what are we doing here? And then you flip it. Oh, okay. So little stuff like that takes some getting used to. But yeah, Ryan, like you, I hadn't really climbed in the dark at all until Horseshoe Hill. So like, I remember the first year, it's a pretty long route, like when it got dark for us. And like the first one was a little weird.
[01:22:54] And then you kind of hit this cool flow state because you can't really focus on anything besides the move you're doing. So it's kind of fun in that regard too. And then how are you keeping track of these climbs? Yeah, so they've developed an app that you can, that you'll want to install on your phone. And it's got a nice score sheet on there. Some people also do a paper score sheet. They have them on the Horseshoe Hill website. You can print it out.
[01:23:18] That can be nice because you can kind of like, if you're doing the horseshoe, for example, you could kind of pre-select which routes you want to do. That way, when you're kind of going around, you can be like, yeah, we did do that one. Yeah, we did do that one. But it is good to try and keep up with that, like maybe every hour or two, you know, make sure you go through and add the routes you did. Otherwise, you'll get to the end and you'll be like, oh man, I don't remember any of them. So you're not logging every climb you do, you're not logging it in the moment. You'll maybe do like a handful in an area and then like tick them all off at once.
[01:23:48] They recommend doing it in the moment. But if you're moving at a decent pace, sometimes that's easier said than done. So yeah, like I said, if we kind of clear a crack or two, then we'll try to do it. I would recommend downloading the app and logging into it before you get to Jasper, Arkansas, because sometimes you'll find some dead pockets of service. But the other thing, you can filter the app as well too. So like a lot of times that can help as well in terms of just like making it easier to click them on the go.
[01:24:17] Have you guys hit some weather? Have you hit rain, thunderstorms, anything like that? A little bit of rain here and there, but a couple of years ago when that hurricane hit the East Coast, it was projected to rain like two or three inches every day for like the 12 hour, the 24 hour and the day after. And that edge of the storm like sat right at the edge of the ranch and sucked all the humidity out of the air, but never rained on us.
[01:24:46] And it made for like epic conditions. But we were pretty close to, you know, getting totally downpoured on. We had rain jackets just in case. They pretty much will keep the event going from what I understand. Yeah, I have etiquette questions. So you mentioned racing to the first route. You know, obviously everybody's on top of each other and it's super friendly, but, you know, you're trying to get your shit done.
[01:25:11] So tell me about just dealing with the other people that are also, you know, racing to get routes and wanting to go fast and running into them and them waiting for you and those sorts of things. Yeah, it's just something you'll navigate a little bit. Like Rob said, oftentimes you kind of end up, especially if you're doing something like a horseshoe where you're traveling, you'll end up with people that start in a similar place as you and follow a similar path. I would recommend making friends with them because it can be real easy to be like...
[01:25:41] Well, I'm just going to be the total resting bitch face guy just like shooting ugly glances at everybody. It can be great when you're like, oh, we got one more lap left on this one. How many y'all got on that one? And they're like, you know, one. And so you swap or yeah, things like that. It's usually not too bad. We've, I would say, rarely run into too many issues. And oftentimes when we're almost done with a route, we'll try and call it out. Like, hey, we're about done with this one. Is that one about to be open?
[01:26:07] If it's a busy area, it'll be a little bit more chaotic probably in the beginning. And I would think about where you're going to start based on that a little bit. Like if there's one option, like sub 510, that might be problematic in terms of having some parties queue up. If you go to an area that has a lot of options, you should be able to get a nice, you know, start, open start without too many problems. But yeah, sometimes areas get crowded.
[01:26:34] But actually with the single laps this past year, we noticed that routes freed up quite a bit quicker than they used to. So in your strategy, is it just like a no-go to wait for a climb? Or do you, I mean, you just switch in the moment or do you just say, okay, if it's going to be two minutes, we're good. It's going to be this many minutes. We better get, get onto something else. It's kind of a judgment call. Like if you can keep moving, great. Like if you can go a little further to the right and start working on a crag that you're going to go to.
[01:27:03] Because like there's different pockets that are just around the corner from each other. So sometimes we'll do that. Sometimes like if we really need the route, we'll be like, you know what? Like this is a time to take a little snack, water break. Like let's just enjoy it for what it is. If we need to go to the bathroom and go. And then sometimes if the route's like not completely pivotal to the goals, it's like, cool, we're leaving this one behind. Time to keep going. Do you guys pre-tape your fingers at all? Absolutely. Yeah. I go full, I go full X-tape on every finger.
[01:27:32] And mine lasts pretty well. Rob tries every year and it falls off by like, you know, the first hour. Yeah. I think, I think my record for tape on is like six hours in and by the time it's sweat off. So you'll be all right either way. But the more you can put ahead of time, the better. So then, but you're re-taping. Essentially, you're trying to keep taped up. No, no, you're not. If it comes off. Once it's off, it's off. For me at least. But people, I mean, some people wear gloves the whole time.
[01:27:57] Like, I know there's in the past, people, that, but then also like, I've seen people wear mechanic gloves. Like, there's all different types of strategies, but I think belay gloves is where I would sort of draw the line of like, what's useful, what's not. Yeah, I've done, I mean, if we're doing a lot more trad climbing, I'll tape the back of my hands with a crack glove or something like that. But I typically find just like an X tape around my finger, like not the tips, with some super
[01:28:27] glue, like stays on pretty well. And I mean, if it comes off, it comes off, but I try to keep it on as long as possible. So you're putting the tape on and then you're soaking it with super glue? No, more like super gluing the end back to the tape. That way it doesn't peel. Got it. To keep it, to keep it the loose end or whatever from, from peeling off, but not to keep it to your skin. Right. Once that loose end starts to go, it's kind of hard to keep it on. Gotcha. Okay.
[01:28:57] Chris, any other tactic questions? I want to get a little, close it out with a little bit more of a question about kind of what happens after and just like, you know, the general vibe in the party and all of that stuff. But my head's swimming here. We got our work cut out, man. Yeah, yeah. No, it's cool. Or we don't. It's cool. Just show up. Or we don't. Yeah. Um, yeah. Cause I, I've been remembering as we've talked about all these other times when I've had to do these things through the night or whatever. So, yeah, but I had a question. There's this idea of us, of people who do support.
[01:29:26] What's the deal with that? Like, you know, is that allowed? Are you, what, is there like, what does a support crew do for you? Oh yeah. Cause you're going to have a buddy that, that comes out. He might come, but. So this will go back to your question about how to enter your routes. So the only support you're technically supposed to have is a scorekeeper. So if you want to have somebody that like secretaries for you and logs your routes, that can be super helpful.
[01:29:53] We've never had that before, but it does look like it's pretty handy. You're not supposed to have anyone that's like, yeah. You're not supposed to have anyone that like carries your gear for you or water for you. It's all kind of stuff. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Supposed to be self-sustained. Now there's tons of good volunteers out there that are going to like provide a ton of psych and, you know, other teams and other folks that aren't participating will provide you with like lots of psych and stuff like that, which is invaluable.
[01:30:20] But technically nobody's supposed to, you know, aid you in any way that helps you climb better. But we have, we have some good friends that we've met through it that like one of the guys, Kyle and Calvin, his wife always comes and she like, she sort of brings the vibes, I guess you would say from a support standpoint. Like she dresses up in like a, a unicorn outfit and then she always has a speaker. So I think that that also for them morally, like mentally it's like, okay, you've got scorekeeper taken care of and then they have the music.
[01:30:48] So it's just stuff like that can go a long way from support. But yeah, you don't want anyone carrying your actual gear or food. All right. Let's talk about what happens at the end. All right. So it closes at 10 a.m. All right. Talk, talk to us about the next few hours or I guess 24 hours as the there's a party that night. Right. Actually, wait, wait. Can we talk about the last, also like the last hour, the last 30 minutes? I mean, people probably knock off when they've hit their goal. Are you just like, you know, sprinting?
[01:31:18] Are you pushing for a few more? Or what's gone on in you guys' lives before the end? Yeah, good question there. Because you're supposed to do one an hour. So if the last hour is 9 a.m. to 10 a.m., you could technically at 9.05 complete a route. And if you've done everything else, call it quits or you could, you could kind of make for a finish line sprint. Yeah, this, this is always either a, it's a really great time or it's a, you know, we've hit, we've hit some walls at, you know, 8 a.m. and, and kind of just slogged our way to the end.
[01:31:48] But yeah, usually people start hitting their goals or start dropping off like kind of that, you know, 3, 4, 5 a.m. type period. And then you'll get a whole crew at like 6, 7, 8 a.m. That's like pushing super hard. And it's a, it's a lot of fun to be on the east side on the cliffs of insanity for that. Cause there's like a lot of, you know, 60 foot 5 8s and everybody is trying to get the mile high club over there.
[01:32:14] And like we were doing that last year and like every single person was like in sync trying to, I need 120 more feet. Who's got an open route? Like that kind of thing. So everybody was, it was a really psyched crew over there. And basically I supported Rob for the last, I don't know, 30 minutes while he just did pitch after pitch to hit the mile high club. So it can be, it can be a lot of fun in that last hour or it can really suck. Cause you know, your feet hurt, your fingers hurt, you don't have a goal you're chasing and you're just trying to survive. Yeah.
[01:32:42] We, we usually try to go to the, there's like a gun at the end. So we usually try to go to the end and it is fun because you, a lot of times you have to kind of navigate throughout, obviously like with kind of like getting open routes, but as already mentioned, like things open up quite a bit. So like if you're in the right area that your scorecard hasn't really ticked much off of yet, like you can, you can move, you can save some juice for the end. Like there's people that'll go to the kindergarten boulder as well and just kind of clean up those 20 routes or whatever it is and just kind of keep running.
[01:33:12] So I don't know. It's fun chasing the finish, but you gotta, you gotta have enough left, I guess you would say, but it's a good time. Oh man. I'm still, we started this conversation. We're in a conversation where I was equal parts excited and terrified and we're ending it in the exact same place. Talk to me about, it's 10 AM. You're done. 24 hours is a long time, dude. We can get it done. Yeah, we got this. We got this, bro. Cocaine PBJs all the way. All right.
[01:33:41] What happens after 10 AM then? The best nap of your life, probably. You have to go and turn your scorecard in by like, I think it's by 1030 or something like that. But now with the app, like you can kind of submit it. Like we usually stay at a cabin now so that you can submit it on wifi later on. But yeah, you gotta go check in. And there are still from a safety standpoint, I know we didn't cover this earlier, but there is like a check-in at 10 PM. And I think one other one during the middle of the night. So like there's a couple of measures like that, but the last check-in is afterwards.
[01:34:12] He's turning the scorecard and then, yeah, it's just kind of like recovery. And then per the stashing strategy as well, at some point, whether that's right away or like a couple hours later, when you come back to the ranch, you got to just kind of clean up after yourself and just go pick up all the gear that's left behind and things like that. And then there's like an after party award. Robbie, you're forgetting about the best part. Talk to me. Cold beer. They always have cold beer right at the end.
[01:34:41] So go to the, you go to the trading post and you turn in your scorecard and they'll have tons of cold beer. Usually they brew something for the event and there's a couple options. And I would highly recommend getting someone else to open the can for you. Like that's what the volunteers are for. Yeah. You can, you can, they'll usually have food trucks and cold beer and everybody's psyched and you just kind of like all the people that you ran into during the event, you'll find and you'll be like, Oh, how'd you do? Like how'd it go? Yada, yada.
[01:35:07] You swap stories for a few hours and then, yeah, like Rob said, you take, you know, one of the best naps of your life. Yeah. Double, double fisting is kind of perfect. Cause it's like a nice pack on each hand, which is great. I love this. Yeah. This is the goal here is to, is to get to those cold beers the next morning. Right. Yeah. And then there'll, there'll be an award ceremony. I think it like dinner. They usually do a spaghetti dinner and a, an award ceremony that takes place right at the trading post sometime around five or six o'clock.
[01:35:36] And then after that's done, there's, there's like a vendor village. You can go check out all the vendors and sponsors of the event. And then they'll have a little concert and after party in the, in the field right below the trading post. And the last couple of years they've had this pretty wild. I don't know what you would call them, Rob. Like a. Electro mullet rock jazz grass, something like stomp grass or something like that. Yeah. They're called the spook lights. That's pretty fun. Yeah. They kind of, I don't know, the banjo synthesizers and like two by fours are sort of their instruments.
[01:36:05] So it's kind of a, it's a wild combo. Sounds amazing. Yeah. It's good time. But then also to like at some point, whatever cover band comes on before them plays Mr. Brightside and everyone loses their minds. So that's sort of like the, the anthem for hell is Mr. Brightside. The killers. Yeah. Yeah. Why Mr. Brightside? It's about like getting your heart ripped out in a breakup and then your ex is going and fucking somebody else. You're thinking you're imagining them fucking somebody else. What does that have to do with 24 hours of hell?
[01:36:34] You'll, you'll find out at 2am, you know, like that's, I think that's what the vision you'll get. It'll all make sense. When, yeah. When the cocaine and the sunrise and Mr. Brightside all hit at the same time on the Venn diagram. Yeah. That's when all answers become clear. Guys, this is awesome. I really appreciate the noob's guide. There may be a follow up that happens here after Chris and I dive into some of these tactics that you've laid out. But I think you've saved us like considerable amounts of skin and stamina and maybe our lives. And I'm grateful for it.
[01:37:03] Chris, any other questions kind of part of the process? It's just funny because they're going to see us. I mean, they're going to, they're going to be able to like monitor us maybe like cross our paths and just be like, oh my God, look at those fucking idiots. Like how many times did we tell them not to do that? And there they are doing it. Yeah. When I see you rocking the 80 meter rope in a full pack, two gallons of water, you know, I'm just shaking your head a little bit. We're, we're, we're, we're the Grogu to your Mandalorian.
[01:37:31] You are now in charge of our health and wellness and safety. So, so please take this role seriously. And by the way, that's chalk on my nose. When you do run into us, that's chalk on my nose. Just, let's just keep that straight.
[01:38:04] Conan, what is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women. That is good. That is good. Kids with people. Today said, let me know. If I think that's tough, don't worry. It's a sloppy testing regime. Do you know? It's a wacky, la wired machine, You