Enormocast 330: Shara Zaia – What’s Past is Prologue

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[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_08] We gotta get home. Listen, where are you playing in town? Are you playing here? We're doing the Enormo Dome, whatever it is. It's terrific. Oh yeah, a big place. That's not a town. Very nice. That's a big place. You sold it out.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_04] I'll say, you really should.

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[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_05] Hello and welcome to the EnormoCast. This is your host, Chris Kalous. It is September 30th, 2026, about 9 PM here in Colorado. And this is episode 330 of the EnormoCast, a conversation with climber Shara Zaya. I met up with Shara up in Lander at the International Climbers Festival a few months ago in the summer, in July, in the heat.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_05] And we sat down in the hotel room, old school, EnormoCast style, and got this one face to face. Shara was showing the premiere of her short film, Sharp Edges, at the festival. And I got wind of that and asked to see a preview of it before I went up to Lander. And it was extremely intriguing to me.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_05] The sort of crux of the film is combining her climbing with her Assyrian roots, with her American ideals, all the things that go into being Shara Zaya. And the film is short, just a few minutes, kind of more of an art piece. And it's one of those things that asks more questions than it answers. So yeah, I wanted to get to the bottom of it a little bit here on the EnormoCast. We had a great conversation.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_05] And of course, if you're an avid listener, you know that I just got back from the 24 hours of horseshoe hell and enjoyed the hell out of it. My partner, Ryan Devlin of the Struggle Podcast was awesome. We had some amazing coaches. I had a really good time. We had a respectable finish with Ryan doing 75 pitches and completing the full horseshoe, which is to climb at all 24 named zones at the Horseshoe Canyon Ranch.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_05] And I finished that as well as doing 100 pitches. Ryan's going to put out a podcast about it that we just recorded. I might drop it here as well as a tweener. So we'll get into it then. I'll probably talk about it on the run out to the other podcast. But I just got to say that is, in fact, a very special event. I'm always cynical when there's a lot of hype and that one lived up to it. It was awesome. And thanks to everybody who helped, everybody I met.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_05] If you've been listening to Taps the last couple of years, I mean Last Rites. I met Tall Jonathan, who's been a frequent contributor. Overall, it was just a great few days. Too fast. You know, we got in, did the comp and got out. That's just dad life these days. And speaking of which, I'm immediately leaving tomorrow for the Smith Rock Climbing Festival up in Bend on Friday night.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_05] I will be interviewing Alan Watts, which, of course, I will record and put out here. It's been a long time coming to talk to Alan. I'm emceeing another event on Saturday night, and I will be around. Plus, I will be tasting that tuft or whatever it is there in Smith Rock for the very first time in my life. A huge hole in my resume about to be clamped shut. Going to be able to get two or three days climbing. We'll see how long my fingers last after last weekend, running into this weekend. But that's the plan. Plus, my boy Steve Dilk is coming.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_05] You completists will know Steve Dilk from Taps episodes. And many of you met him in Lander, at least one of those many late nights at the Lander bar. Steve was there. Okay, let's get to Shara. Shara's parents were immigrants from Iraq. And so she was born here, but has deep roots in the Assyrian culture. We talk about what the Assyrian culture is, and she's quick to point out that it's not exactly Syria.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_05] And the crux of our conversation is about her sort of finding her place in America as a brown person, as an Assyrian, often mistaken for an Arab, growing up in the post-911 era, moving to Colorado, finding climbing, founding an organization called Cruxing in Color. And finally, a very, very difficult accident that she was a witness to that resulted in a fatality. We get to that as well.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_05] So yeah, this is a wide ranging conversation, not a ton about climbing per se, but about climbing culture and about the climbing world and about a climber named Shara Zaya.

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[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_05] So what's your history with Lander and even the International Climbing Festival?

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_02] Okay, I started climbing in 2019 and 2020, I don't believe there was a festival, but 2021 I came and every year since then I've come to the festival. I haven't really climbed much here, except for last year I skipped, but every other year I've really enjoyed coming. It's like a great way to meet up with folks and the Vendor Village is cool.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_02] The first year I came to Lander, I was climbing 5'7", and I remember I was, I think I was clipping the second or the third bolt in Wild Iris and I fell and I got like a little soft deck. I got this beautiful catch from a tree. It didn't hurt, it was, but it was like...

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_05] A beautiful catch from a tree. Yeah.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02] Just kind of landed gracefully in its branches and its arms. A nice embrace. And that was my first, I think that was, I guess I must have come in 2019 because that was my first year climbing. And then in 2020 I found 10 sleep and I got obsessed. And that year I sent my first 5'12". So I made quick progress in those early years, but Lander was kind of like the starting place for me.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_05] That's cool. Yeah. How did you find out about the Climbing Festival? Cool.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_02] I...

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_05] Do you remember?

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Well, I was dating someone at the time and he somehow knew about it and he was like, we're going to go to this area and this is Lander and Wild Iris and there's a climbers fest that everyone goes to. So I started coming then. Yeah. This was before, yeah. I was still a teacher back then. Like this is a whole other life for me. I feel like, yeah.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_05] You were a teacher.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_02] I was a teacher for about a decade. Okay. Elementary. I taught second grade arts integration in Kokomo, Indiana, which is like sort of like 45 minutes from Indianapolis.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_05] Right. Not the one in the song. Not the Kokomo.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02] You know, there's no beaches. I wish. And then I taught preschool in Denver area for four years ago. About a decade of my life. Um, and yeah, I kind of the transition into, I now work in the outdoor industry and there was just like a gateway between finding climbing in my second year moving to Denver and then just becoming absolutely obsessed.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_02] And, um, I started my nonprofit with my friend Manasia in 2020, uh, Cruxing in Color. So that kind of was the pivot for me where I was, I was taking everything I really wanted to teach and advocate for, for my students because I taught mostly black and brown kiddos and, and kind of transferring that into the climbing community and trying to create spaces for black and brown climbers within climbing. So it was, it was going from children to adults, which honestly isn't that different.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02] Adults need love just like kiddos do. And so that was kind of my bridge into professionally being in the outdoor industry and the climbing space.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_05] Let's go back to your beginnings. Did you grow up in Indiana? Indiana?

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_02] I grew up in Ohio.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_05] Is that how you ended up in Kokomo, Indiana?

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_02] I grew up in Cleveland.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_05] Oh yeah. That's interesting. Cause, uh, your number came up, a Cleveland number. And I wanted to actually ask you about that. So I'm glad you, I'm glad you brought it up.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_02] Although I always wanted to be 216. So it's kind of a.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_05] What's the 216?

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_02] 216 is like East side Cleveland.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_05] Oh, okay.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_02] Porforo. By the time I got my own cell phone, I was, we had moved to the West side of Cleveland, but I was born in Shaker Heights.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_05] All right. Yeah. There's like four people listening that were like, yes.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I actually just met someone named Sage from Cleveland.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_05] There's a really small, but fervent climbing community in Cleveland. I've heard.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. I have, I, when I went back to visit my family once, I went to the Cleveland rocks gym and that was fun.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_02] But I haven't been to the, the one bouldering crag we have apparently.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_05] Right. They do some bouldering too.

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Some bouldering important. Yeah. Um, but yeah, then I, I started pharmacy school actually as a true, uh, first gen kiddo, uh, really wanted to follow my parents' footsteps. They immigrated from Iraq and, um, my dad is a doctor. He's a neonatologist and my mom is a pharmacist. So I'm the youngest and my older siblings both chose academia. So they are doctors technically, but not the kind that my parents were hoping for. But I was like, okay, I'm going to be a pharmacist.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_02] So I went to Butler university in Indianapolis and graduated in 2013, but did not finish my pharmacy. I transitioned to education about a year and a half into farm school and it wasn't what I wanted to do with my life. Um, and I, I, I've always been a pretty, um, I'm a feelings girl. I like really want to make spaces welcoming for folks.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02] And I think that education was just, um, I was really drawn to helping people and that's kind of just been the through line for, for most of my work.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_05] You said you ended up in Denver. So what was that move about? Oh gosh.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So Denver, I moved because, I mean, this is kind of getting into the why of, I mean, the meat of my story is I was very, I was very depressed in Indiana. I think because I grew up in this liminal space between, um, my parents immigrating from Iraq were Assyrian. Um, and this is where you should say Syrian. And I say, no, not Syrian, Assyrian.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_05] I already clued you in though that I actually have a history buff and know the difference.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Which is very impressive. Sort of.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_05] I mean, I have a limited knowledge, but I understand what the Assyrian empire was and where it fits in with the Persians and the, and all the things. Yeah.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_02] A really rich history.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_02] Um, so yeah, I grew up kind of in this middle space of like, okay, my first language was Aramaic Assyrian. And I lost that when we started going to, when I started going to English speaking schools, um, my sister was born in Chicago where there's a huge Assyrian population. And then my parents moved us or they moved them at the time to Cleveland and had my brother and I in Ohio where there is no Assyrian community, let alone like a Middle Eastern community that

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_02] I knew of. Um, so I kind of grew up in this, like, here's, here's who I am, but I'm figuring out who I am and I want to fit in. And then like nine 11 happens. And then being Middle Eastern is not just like different anymore. It's, it is, it's a dangerous thing now. And appearing visibly Middle Eastern gets you pretty poor treatment at that time. So I, yeah, I'm like trying to remember where your original question was. I went down a hole here, but.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_05] Keep going down the hole.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02] Um, yeah.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_05] It was about moving to Denver.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. So I, I think growing up, you know, nine 11, I was, I don't know how old I was probably eight. And so in those kind of pivotal years, I started to learn like, okay, it's not okay to be, I was, I was so confused. My parents would put crosses on us because Assyrians are a Christian minority. Um, we're not Muslim. And, and I think that they were trying to protect us. So we would wear, we would wear crosses at the airport, for example. And like, we'd really try to be like, we're not Arab. We're not, you know, and, and that was a protection.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02] And I started to learn those like protection mechanisms and, you know, friends in middle school and high school, they'd make jokes like towel head terror. You know, they'd like, they'd say it like they were joking, but it was painful, but I would laugh because I'm like, what am I going to do? So I kind of internalized all this messaging. And I just realized that it wasn't safe to be myself in those ways.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02] And I, I really just started a deep, deep like desire to hide those parts and to protect myself from, from harm. So taking me into Indianapolis, I, um, I really struggled in college. Um, I had a lot of friends, but I didn't ever feel like I belonged. And I, I ended up surviving suicide, um, in my junior year.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02] And that was kind of like a, a, a big, obviously moment, um, for me to have a second chance at life. And, but I was still like really in pain. So I needed to, I was in survival mode. So maybe two years later, I, I was at the Indianapolis 500, which is a big like car race, if you don't know the, the lore. And so I was there and I was actually wearing an American flag t-shirt.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02] Although I don't, yeah, it was like this like bandeau thing, whatever. And a man came up to me and he threw his beer at my face and he told me to go back to my country and he called me a terrorist. And in that moment, I just like, it was like, what else can I do? I'm in here with my American flag t-shirt. I'm like doing everything I can. I'm straightening my hair. I'm doing all this stuff to just like be American. I am American. I was born here. I don't have a country, even if I had one, like Assyrians don't have a country. So it was really painful.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02] And, and so I started to think about how can I change myself to protect myself more? And, um, that's when I decided to pursue a rhinoplasty. And that is kind of like a pivotal, yeah, it's a really pivotal moment in my life where, um, I had this choice, you know, abandon myself, but protect myself. And it's pretty sad, but it worked. And I, ever since that surgery, I have never experienced Middle Eastern racism.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_02] I've experienced almost the opposite in a way, but, um, we can talk about that in a bit, but yeah, it's, um, the rates are wild. I think you can fact check me, but I think in Iran, it's 200,000 rhinoplasties a year. And that's seven times as much as the U S. So it's just, it takes me back to thinking about my students and I'd have my, my black kiddos. They would play with the dolls and there's like a black doll and a white doll. And they would like say, this one's ugly. The black doll's ugly. I want the pretty one.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02] And they'd pick up the white doll. And it would just like broke my heart. So I started thinking about like my inner child and like what I needed when I was younger. And to be told like your unique parts of yourself are beautiful and you shouldn't change them because that's what I'm telling my kiddos. It's so easy to tell someone else, but like telling ourselves is hard. And that's what kind of led me to creating my film Sharp Edges. And I just, it's the film I needed when I was younger.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_05] Right. So what was the draw of moving West though?

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I, basically I was, I had just, you know, survived this horrible time in my life. And my, my parents were like, we need you, like, we think you should go somewhere else. So I, I started looking into grad programs for education, master's degrees. And I found this small space in Boulder called the Boulder Journey, Journey School. So my pedagogy was Reggio Emilia inspired practice in which I learned at Butler.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_02] And that's based in a teaching practice out of Reggio Emilia, Italy. And so this program in Butler would basically give you a master's degree in a year and a half and they would take you to Reggio and you like learn from the Italians. And it was just really inspiring to me. And it was a beautiful space, but looking into it, I was like, it doesn't make sense to go more in debt. And at the time, like early childhood educators weren't getting paid more for the master's degree. So it didn't make sense.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02] So, but I was still like, I got to get out of here. I got my dog. I like, okay, I have something to take care of. I moved out to Denver anyway. And I was like, I'm just going to apply to teaching jobs. So yeah, I started teaching out in like by the airport, far out East Denver. And I think it was the best decision I could have made because sometimes when you stay in one spot where you don't feel like you belong, it'll kill you.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02] So I think like moving out to Denver, getting Bo, my dog, he, I mean, he's saved my life so many times. So I think it's just a good reminder that sometimes like all you have to do is just change something, like change your surroundings, change your, your, whatever it might be, your, um, who you're around. So I try to remind myself that when I'm going through something difficult, like, okay, just get up and change your surroundings. Like even if it's just taking a walk.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_05] And was the climbing thing like a typical sort of like, wow, I live here by the mountains now and I should, I should become outdoorsy like all these other people around me?

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, not really. I mean, I, I guess kind of, I think inside of me, I know that my, my tribes are mountain people in what was Assyria. So I think there's something in me that was drawn here specifically, but I, I, I was just like, I found climbing through, I was like at the pool of my apartment when I first moved reading a book on a Saturday, like a nerd. And there was like a birthday party happening and these folks invited me to hang out with them.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_02] They were like, we're going to the climbing gym. You should come. And I just went with them and they were like, wow, you're, you're pretty good at this. And I think, cause I did gymnastics when I was younger, I had like, you know, body awareness in the air and stuff. So that was, it was just like this unlocking of like, this is something I can do. That's just for me. Like team sports really gave me anxiety. I hated the idea of letting people down. It like added to this layer of just like not being enough and, and failing.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_02] So I climbing was like this beautiful dance that you could do on your own. It has nothing to do with anyone else, which like fast forward now into, into my climbing career. I understand that like, that doesn't stop people from making it about themselves. Like, so that, that, that doesn't always last that like, oh, it's just me and the rock. Other people's opinions still somehow find their way in to my climbing experience. But in the beginning, it was just like bliss. It was just like, okay, no one's relying on me.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_02] It's just like me learning to trust myself, learning to trust my surroundings and my body. And it was a really big point of self-actualization for me. Like, oh, I can do these hard things. I'm afraid of heights. So it was like, I don't know, overcoming and maybe not overcoming. That's not the word I want. Like redefining my relationship to fear, which has changed a million times in the last eight years.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. I mean, was there some validation and, you know, it's not exactly your appearance, but like your body works for this, you know? Yeah. And you've had this issue with your appearance, which I would imagine extends to your, you know, not just your nose or your face, but your whole body. But you've got this like, wow, this, my body is actually good at this. And these people are telling me that I'm good at this. And so was that anything to do with it?

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_02] I do think like the confidence of being like, I'm doing hard things. Like my, yeah, my body, like look at what I can do on my own. Um, I started bouldering, which is my, my roots of climbing, but, um, yeah, now I, I mostly sport climb, but it's, I think it was definitely like a, a confidence thing and, and learning to, yeah. Reconnect to like, when do I feel power, like strong, when do I feel strong and resilient?

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_02] And I mean, every time you get on the wall, you're kind of faced with that.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_05] So let's talk a little bit about just to be specific about Assyrian. You said that it's generally non-Muslim. I mean, it's, it's interesting because you said your parents were from Iraq and we have this tendency to identify with our nationalism here. You know, we're Americans and, you know, I'm Irish. I Irish, I was Italian or whatever, have a vague notion that my name at least is Czechoslovakian, but I don't actually have much knowledge of, of sort of that past. But the Assyrian thing is interesting.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_05] And I said, I knew something about it. You know, it's, it's sort of an ancient empire that spread across the Middle East, but also up into the stands that are, or were Soviet now their, their own thing. It's that whole region. And yeah, so it's interesting that you have this identification with this vast, but kind of like not exactly a place. It's not a place anymore where there's like, this is the capital of Assyria, you know,

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_05] and obviously the name of the country Syria is derived from that. It was part of it eventually, but tell us what that culture is.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so hard to define, but I mean, when you don't have a country, your, your home is kind of where you make it. And I think that so many, we're, Assyrians are in diaspora. So we've faced, looking back, like you mentioned the Assyrian empire. I mean, that's like, that's like, yeah, BC, like 2000 BC, Neo-Assyrian, I think like 612 BC. But Assyrian culture is, it's beautiful. It's one of the most ancient civilizations.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02] It's the Aramaic is one of the first languages, astronomy, math, like all of these beautiful skills came out of this empire. And I, I think, well, our language is endangered now. So it's, it's difficult because we're kind of all over the place. Like I said, Chicago has a big community, but, and also one in Detroit, there's some, like a good hub in California, but Assyrians lost two thirds of their population in World

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_02] War I during the Seifo genocide. So it's not only genocide, but ongoing erasure. There's still conflict within what is now Iraq, Iran, Syria, Turkey. That's what, you know, Assyrian land was. And, and I, let me be clear, cause I, I would never advocate for displacing other people from their, where they live just because this was our ancestral land. Like that is not okay.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02] So that is not what I'm saying, but I do think like destroying Assyrian artifacts and, and erasing the history of Assyrians in that region is still happening. And it's really, it's sad because our numbers are, our culture is dying out and most people don't know who the Assyrians are. So unless you've read it in history books and most people think, oh, Assyrians are ancient, like they don't exist. So I think, yeah, it's just this constant fight to be like, we are still here.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_02] We're still relevant and we still deserve rights and a place to exist and to share our culture.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, and the word, I think you actually used it in the film. So the film is sharp edges. It's like a kind of a seven minute art piece. That's why you're here at Lander's is to present it tonight. Yeah. And it had all these themes in it that are very interesting to me. And we were talking about them right there, but you use this word assimilation, you know, and that's this idea that, well, if you move here, you know, you got to wear the black t-shirt and go to the Indianapolis 500 and just get on with it.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_05] You know, what does that mean to you to be both things?

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I actually just had a conversation with my mom recently about this because I think, you know, some of our family didn't assimilate at all. And that has presented another type of challenge. So I think that there's sharp edges is really a call to like live in the gray. I often want to live in these like black and white, like I'm either this or I'm that. Or like if I straighten my hair, then I'm not a Syrian. And if I, you know, do this, I'm not American.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_02] And so it's really just a reminder that we are all so complex and that we should be all of those things. And you don't have to erase one to be to justify the other. And so sharp edges, the name is like a call to, to not smooth those edges that make ourselves unique. And I mean, obviously the sharp, like it's, it's, I wouldn't call it a climbing film. It's, it's climbing is kind of the, the landscape or the vehicle.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_02] But like, I really wanted to tie in, you know, these, the edges that I'm climbing. I mean, I love like sharp crimps and so yes, it's a climbing film, but more about, you know, thinking about my nose. That's a, that's a sharp feature that I smoothed and, and here are the consequences. And, and also here's like what a privilege it is to be able to change myself that everyone can do that to protect themselves. So I want to, I want to name that too.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_02] Um, but I really just want it to be call to be ourselves.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_05] So you get into the climbing, right? It kind of becomes, you said, it's like, okay, now I found this thing. What about the climbing community? Uh, what was the sort of, you know, I guess we could use the word assimilation. We definitely, I mean, we assimilate, right? We become climbers and suddenly we're like, well, let's, let's talk the talk and wear the clothes and, and, you know, be the things. And now we know what a dirt bag is and we know what van life is and we know what all these things are. So talk about entering the, the, the climbing community.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_05] You obviously were drawn to it and you made this film. That's basically like, you know, a third identity as a climber in a way, right? American Syrian climber. Totally. So yeah. Talk about like the climbing community in terms of your being drawn into it.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. My relationship with the climbing community has, has ebbed and flowed through the years, but I think initially it's like, you're just meeting so many people and you have this thing in, it's like a language that you share. And you can find commonality wherever you are. Like, I feel like now I can go to almost any state, not any state, but like a lot of the states and it'd be like, oh, I probably know someone here or I can connect with someone, but.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_05] The world.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_05] I mean, that's what I've always talked about with my friends who don't climb, but they travel. It's like, you can drop in and, and it's like, we know what we're talking about and likely, you know, the other fun thing is they, they'll be like, yeah, sleep in my yard.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Or wherever. I just met you.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_05] And it's like around the world. I've found it. Totally.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02] Globally. I guess I, I didn't think that because I've never climbed. Well, I guess I climbed in El Salto once, but I don't count that. Like I would love to climb internationally. And actually, yeah, that's another story. But, um, yeah, I, I think initially that really draws you in. Um, and then somewhere along the way you realize that like, just because you share a hobby with people doesn't mean you share values. And that was a tough lesson for me to learn. But I think assimilation into climbing, it's like.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_05] It's like the Borg. That's what I keep thinking. Do you know this? No. Yeah. You're not, you're not a nerd.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_07] Not that much of a nerd.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_05] A lot of people know what I'm talking about. That's their line. Assimilate. It's like a, it's like an early AI thing. Okay. Interesting. You know, this thing and it's like, you have to become us.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, okay. Yeah, exactly. And, and I think that.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_05] We do that is what I'm thinking in climbing.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_02] But.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_05] Become us.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_02] I think that there are pockets like.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_05] Those are the wrong pants. Go change your pants.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_02] Those aren't last four teeth. Right. Not colorful enough. Are those even vibrant? But no, totally. And I think starting Cruxing in color was really helpful. And seeing that, you know, we can go to the crag and now we're doing Persian tea at the crag. Like we're bringing our, our culture into climbing. And instead of just being like, come on, come on. You hear like yellow. Like we are hearing all different types of words and, and encouragement and, and you're

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_02] seeing different types of people and just really jumpstarting more diversity in climbing. Not saying that CIC did that alone. Like, obviously there's a bunch of groups that were before Cruxing in color, but in the front range at the time, there really wasn't a group getting together for climbers of color. And that, that was like a, a push against the assimilation. Like we're not going to be what we think we should be. Like we want to be who we are.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02] And I think in, in Sharp Edges, I, there's a, um, sort of towards the end, I'm, I'm in my homala, which is the traditional Assyrian dress and being out there in the mountains in, uh, it was just like barefoot. I just something so beautiful about connecting to the outdoors in my traditional dress and like feeling that resilience and like that power.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02] And I think that as much as we can, we should continue to show up as we are and like not hide those parts. You know, I still sound like a older bro half the time, I'm sure. But like, it's important to, to share about like different parts of our cultures. And I love seeing it more and more happening at Crags.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_05] The way you talk about it, Cruxing in color, and you can tell us what you actually do, like what the nuts and bolts of it are. But what you said about the T struck me because in a lot of ways, these movements to have, you know, whatever type of person that's not traditionally a climber. Um, I mean, even, you know, 30 years ago was kind of women, you know, were like that, that was the thing like that was missing or whatever.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_05] But it is, I mean, it's almost like the whole idea of it is like, well, you want to become a climber? We're going to show you how to be a climber. And that is in some ways, like, here's how you act. And here's how you find partners. And you know what I mean? And then, so it's interesting to have you also have this component of like, don't go too deep. Like, stay, like, cause we can, you know, we can draw something from that. And to be honest with you, if I, if I rocked up to a Crag and, and there was like this,

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_05] some sort of like traditional tea ceremony happening, I would find that really cool. Yeah. And really fascinating. And, and because I've traveled, I see it because you go to these other cultures. I mean, I think of the Argentines and they're the Yerba Mate, right? And like, you always know who was in Argentina in the last year because they're sitting in Boulder drinking Mate. Totally. They like totally like, you're like, oh yeah, you were down. This won't last.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_05] It tastes like dirt. You're going to be over in a couple more months, but.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_07] For sure.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_05] But you know, it's like, like, I find that really cool.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_05] Like, oh, here we are. And when you're there, I do it. You do it. Yeah. You're like, yeah, I'll take the Mate, even though you just had your mouth on that straw. It's cool.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02] And I don't know you at all.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_05] But anyhow.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02] I love pushing up against the like. Do you know what I mean? Yes.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_05] You seem to like, that seems to be a little bit part of what you're doing is like, let's, let's go far, but not so far as that you don't bring this new thing to, to the, to the scene.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_02] Also for climbers, it's like, just because something is the way it has been doesn't mean it's the way it should be. And like, we're seeing a lot of that changing with ethics on stick clipping and things like that. Like, I'm always an advocate for like doing whatever you need to do to feel safe or enjoy your, you know, yeah. Hot take. Like I extend draws. I'm five, three. So if I'm climbing something that was like developed by someone who was six, two, and I can't clip from that position, I'm going to extend it.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_02] And like, that has been an interesting thing because actually filming sharp edges. One of the locations we went to was this block out in Wyoming and it was empty for the most time, most of the week that we were there. But the last day this, these two boys from Sheridan came up and without even looking and making eye contact and saying, hello, they were, they like, they threw out the term outsiders. They were like, you know, I don't know how, like, how'd you find this place is what they asked.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02] And I said, it's in a guidebook. Like, and so, um, and I had hung these slings. I was projecting something that was at my limit at the time. And he goes to his friend and he's like, when I sent it, I didn't need all those effing slings. And I was like, it was this almost like bubbling up of what I've been talking about. Like, I, I don't belong, like I'm doing it wrong. Like I'm not a client, I'm not doing it correctly. And like, here's the way you're supposed to do it.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02] But then I'm like, no, actually like screw that. First of all, like I'm doing project burns on something that like he's comparing his send go to like, and also even if I wanted to send it with an extended sling, like it has nothing to do with anyone else. Like I am not taking away from your send. If I do it differently, I just think that there's a lot of growth that climbers need to make in that area. It's like, if I were pushing the limits of the sport, we can, we can talk about like those ethics. Sure.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02] But like, we're, we're doing this as a hobby. It's for fun. Like, I just, I hate it. Like this happened, a similar thing happened. Um, when I sent my first five 13, it was on September 11th actually. And it was like this really, really meaningful, like, oh my gosh, I'm doing this. I never thought I could do like, I never in my world, in my mind thought I could send this grade and I've done it.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_02] And it's, um, it was, it was like this really, really like huge accomplishment for me. And on that day, it was like this, oh my gosh, like I've overcome this thing. And on this day, like I'm in my power, I'm strong and I'm proud of myself. And then that evening or the next day, um, someone I knew who did not like me very much, um, like cyber bullied me about it. Like they found my ticks.

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know how they found, like, they were like looking at my ticks. They knew I sent, um, which I hadn't told anyone. And they like wrote a really mean comment about how I, I climbed it wrong. They said, because I stick clipped, I shouldn't, it was like, you can't have the same.

[00:37:59] Yeah.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. You can't. And in fact, she changed, she, it was a 13 AB. She changed her rating from 13 A to 12 D and just told people like, just because I, I found out Shara sent it, it can't be 13 A. Like, just like, and like, now I can look back and be like, okay, that's bullshit. This is like, what a loser. But at the time, at the time it heart, my heart broke. I was like, nothing I ever do will be enough. Nothing I ever like there's, and that's kind of the moment where I was like, okay, nothing I ever do will be enough.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_02] So I might as well just like be myself. And I kind of touch on that in, in the film. I don't go quite into that, but, um, there've just been these moments where I'm like, okay, I changed. I literally had surgery on my face. And then like on the other side of things, I start this nonprofit and I'm, I'm trying to put up, put together this fundraiser for CIC and this woman. And this is before I like really know that the like toxic side of the climbing community,

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_02] but this, this woman in New York, she was like a pretty established climber in the area in New York and she posted this photo of my family from my brother's wedding and had a poll for, I don't know, 30,000 people that follow her to vote on if we were white or not. Really? It was crazy. It was crazy. And at the time I'm like, I would never have known.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_05] That's so awful.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02] And like, I mean, again, I can look back and be like, what the hell? But at the time I was like, oh my gosh, these are all my fears like coming together. Like, am I, am I like a person of color enough to, to start this organization? Like, am I, and so like, yeah, at the time, and I wouldn't have even find out, found out there was a burner account called secrets of climbing on Instagram that sent me the, the story. Oh really? Which is so strange. It's like vigilante, like being like, you should know about this.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_05] Wow. That's really strange. I mean, like I can't sit here and say that I'm innocent of, you know, getting into the weeds about how people send things or what things are graded or whatever. else. But like, you know, it's a lot of, I mean, when it happens, it's often academic and I, you know, certainly would not have sought out someone who's like celebrating their 13th their first send and just be like, yeah, fuck you.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_05] It's like, and another thing I was thinking about with the stick clipping is that, um, actually climbing magazine, Sam at climbing magazine hit me up about my opinion on stick clipping. And I, I'm fairly certain it was because like, oh, he'll be super crusty about it. Cause he's that, he's that guy. Damn it. And I actually just, I didn't get in the article because my opinion was completely milk toast. I was like, I think people should stick clip the bolt that makes them feel safe is exactly what I said.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_05] And I said, yeah, if it's cutting edge stuff, usually it's been determined, you know, like totally. Like if you go up to La Rambla, you know, everybody knows that, oh yeah, that's the one you stick clip. Yeah. Or, uh, and I don't know exactly that one is, but usually if it's a double, if it's a double bolt stick clip, it's how everyone has been doing it. Yeah. But if you get away from that, who cares? You can stick clip whatever you want.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_02] Literally who cares?

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_05] And as an older guy now, I'm like, yeah, stick clip the shit out of that. Cause I don't want to break my ankle.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Like, okay. If you're talking about like Yanya or someone, but like, I am just like, just out here

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_05] So who cares?

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_02] Like, totally. That's yeah. But I, yeah, I think like if there's like, you can talk about grades. I think the only time I think it's appropriate to talk about grades is if it's like the newest, like the newest grade. It's important. But also like how many people have climbed, everyone and their mom climbs 513 now. Yeah. Just leave me alone.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_05] I'm sorry to hear all those things, but I understand it. I mean, it's, it's, it's, you know, climbing is all people and all people come with all different, different things.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_02] Well, you also just never know what someone's going through, like what trauma they've experienced and what they need to feel safe or like, you know, are they doing a beta burn or what or not? Like, I just feel like leading with compassion is the best way. And like also minding your own business sometimes.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_05] Well, I, like I said, I, I'm not sitting here innocent of all, you know, of no, no arguments on forums and things back in the day. But I mean, honestly, like it's for me, it's growth getting older.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_05] I mean, it's like, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. But that's what I told him.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_05] I'm like, look, I know this is like burning you up right now. And I'm like, unfortunately there's almost nothing you can do about it and you won't care about it in a few years. Like this will, you know, and he laughed and he was like, yeah, probably not. And I was like, and there's nothing you can do about it anyway. But I mean, what are you going to have like a blanket party and like go kidnap the guy or something? And then, you know, whatever.

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_02] Just find some other rocks. Right. There's rocks everywhere.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_05] But at the same time, part of me has been in those arguments and it does like, it is a resource and we have to like be careful how we bolt it and things like that. So I'm not like dismissing it entirely. Definitely true. Yes. But there's constructive ways to talk about it and to deal with it. That's not a personal attack on some woman who climbed a 13. Yeah. You know.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_02] And it usually just says more about the person who does something like that.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_05] Well, and that's the thing is like, it didn't necessarily have anything to do with any of this past. Like the comment wasn't, but they don't know that you have this baggage. This pain. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's derogatory to say baggage, but you have this past that's informed your trauma and that like, and so that's the thing about being insulting is that you don't know what scab you're picking as it were. Or the effects of it. It's just really mean.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. It's just me. Yeah. It's not, not cool.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. But again, like someone's going to send me a screenshot of some post I made.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_07] Yeah.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_05] Like, oh yeah, look at you asshole.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_07] I'm going to go into your archive and come at you.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_05] Look, young men are not, we're not socialized very well. Okay. Anyway. But yeah, that, that, that's all interesting. But, you know, overall though, I mean, I would have to like, because I want, I want to desperately and everybody knows from listening to this show, I want to desperately like be like, yeah, but climbers are, are, you know, we're just at least a little bit, but you are still in the climbing community and your life is now in the climbing community in terms of

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_05] like what you do for a living as well as, as your own pursuits. Um, so let's switch it to like the good.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_07] Yeah.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_05] What do you, what do you get out of the climbing community that you think keeps you in it? Even if sometimes the, I mean, if you'd stayed off the internet.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. The internet is honestly the problem.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_05] That person's never going to come up to your face and say that shit. That's yeah. So I just, sorry, this is a tangent, but I just saw some funny meme of like, it was like, you know, Billy Bob, I'm running for something. And he was like, if I get, if I get elected, I'm going to pass a law where if you talk shit on the internet, you got a fist fight or something like that, you know?

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_02] Like, can you imagine? Oh my God. All of the youth of America.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_05] Anyway, but so, so yeah, let's, let's switch it positive. And if, if you can, yeah, totally.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_02] Um, I mean, for example, this morning I picked up 15 pastries from white bark and delivered them to the city park to like a circle of friends that I've met on the road. And just like knowing that I could show up there and, and have people will greet me and hug me and like be, you know, it's, it's a connection and human connect. I mean, connection is like a basic survival need for humans.

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_02] And I think that, uh, climbing gives us something to connect to each other through and yeah, you, you, you kind of have to find your people. There's so many people. So it's easy to find like different levels of friendship and connection, but you can really find some, I mean, you're trusting them with your life. If you're sport climbing or if you're rope climbing, like this is, you're developing this relationship with someone based on trust and you're like facing your fears together.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_02] You're talking about your, you know, you're, you're just like processing through things on the wall and, or at least I am. And it just, I find it creates this really deep bond with those folks that you're sharing, you're sharing hours, days together outside and in, you know, climbing is dangerous. So it's, it's not always just, just out there for fun. Like you, you really, you are trusting people.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_02] And I think that that is a pretty powerful thing, especially, you know, in, in these situations with trauma where you, you've learned, maybe you can't trust people. It's like a challenge that you could have to continue to, um, to face every time. So, um, yeah, I don't know. The climbing community has given me a lot of great memories and a lot of painful ones, but with anything there's, yeah, again, liminal space, like this gray area, it's not one

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_02] or the other, it's just like, it's both, it's everything.

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_05] So in light of, you know, these stories of whatever internet bullying your past as someone who didn't feel like they belonged and felt like there was, you know, some front out there against them and was demonstrated in reality too. It wasn't just a feeling. You, you make this film that discusses all this stuff and puts it into the public space,

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_05] which is going to obviously invite good and bad as it does, you know? And I've often said on here that with this podcast, I've done the same thing and largely it's, I've, it's actually been positive. Now, if I want to flagellate myself, I can go and dig around and I can find the Reddit where I talk too much or, um, I suck at this or I like to talk about myself.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_05] I mean, all the different criticisms, but I mean, generally speaking, even those criticisms are about my style versus like, oh, he's just a fucking asshole or anything like that, which is fine. You don't have to like my show or whatever, but yeah, when you put something out there, it's gonna, it can be problematic. So what was your, I mean, was that something you, you thought about? You have this idea for a film, you wrote it, you, I think worked with people that you were close with to make it. Yeah.

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_05] What was the thinking there in terms of the weighing of that, that risk of like, I'm going to make this public or is this part of my, you know, it's part of my work that I do to, to make these stories public?

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, that's a great question. I think that for me, it was baby steps. And I'd like to say, I was just like so brave that I was like, yes, I'm going to do this. I'm going to put it out there. But it was step by step. Like I started, I'm, I'm more of a writer. So I started sharing my story. I enjoy storytelling. And so I started sharing mostly on Instagram and then started writing longer pieces.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_02] And so I wrote for the climbing zine and it's kind of like started to like uncover some of my, the parts of my story. And then I don't know, maybe a year or two later I wrote for Alpinist and that piece was the most raw. Like that's the first time I, no one I knew, like no one in my life other than my family knew that I had this surgery. So I started, I started to talk about it slowly and like ease into telling people that I trusted.

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_02] And then ultimately decided to share a much deeper piece with Alpinist in 2024. And once that was out there, it was like, it was a relief. I was like, oh my gosh, it's just out there. Cause I kept thinking like, is this terrifying? Like what if someone is, is mean to me and bullies me and I like spiral back into these places. But then I realized that like how much stronger I've become, how much, like how much I've

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_02] overcome and how much, yeah, I, I felt a little bit more confident sharing that in, um, in that way. And so when I wrote that piece for Alpinist, it was like, that was, it was like, okay, it's out there. And if it impacts one person, it's worth it to me. Like one middle Eastern person or anyone to be like, I want to be more of myself and like own those, those parts of myself and not be ashamed. Then that's worth it to me.

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_02] And actually like in writing and in sharing this family found me, uh, they had adopted an Assyrian boy, Victor, and they were traveling to Yellowstone. I think one of the national parks and it passed through 10 sleep and I was in 10 sleep for the summer. And they were like, can we come through and like introduce you to Victor and watch, have him watch you climb. You know, he's this adopted Assyrian boy. And he was like five at the time, maybe four when I first met him.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_02] And through the years we've stayed in touch and we've seen each other in Denver. He came to the gym and he like started climbing and he looks, he's just like so proud of being Assyrian. And he follows like, they like share with him about my, my story. And it's just like that in itself is just so worth it to me to like inspire this little boy to be proud of. Like now he's giving presentations at school about being Assyrian and like, gosh, I wish I like had been doing that. Like, I don't know.

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_02] It just, so I think that gave me the strength and the bravery to, to make the film. Yeah. It was more of an art piece, but I think there's so much conversation to be had, which is why I'm glad we're chatting. Cause it's the piece is short and it's, it's a little bit more poetic and it doesn't really dive into the details as much. And there's so much to talk about, but yeah, ultimately I think being vulnerable has caused

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_02] me a lot of pain in various times in my life, but it's also been worth it because you never know, like you might be saving someone's life by sharing something. And, and I just recognize how much it means to me to resonate with someone. I think, like I mentioned, I'm a feelings girl and I don't know how to connect with the world other than like being vulnerable. So I don't really have a choice. I'm going to be vulnerable. It's just who I am.

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_02] And so I'm just trying to learn how to like take the criticism as like, you know, it's usually not even about me, but it is painful. So I feel you there. It's just like, I try to stay away from any of that. And like, if it's someone that I trust and care about and then they're, they're giving me criticism, like I'll listen to that. But strangers on the internet, like get a life.

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_05] Strangers on the internet. Who speaks Aramaic in the beginning?

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02] So Diana is my translator. I-

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_05] It's super cool.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. She's amazing. Yeah. And we worked with a translator to just make sure that everything was right. But yeah, she's in Canada. And that was one of the coolest parts of this film process was I worked with Diana on translation and voiceover. I worked with Tanise who did our music. She's an Assyrian songwriter out of also Canada. The, the, another of the songs was Sonia who's in Australia. Some of the cinematography came from Zaya who is in Australia.

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_02] All, all kinds of creative, Assyrian creatives and, and the graphic design is Rabelle. So I think it was really powerful to connect. I mean, the internet, we can, I've thrown a lot of shade at the internet, but it has connected me to these folks. And that in a diaspora, that's so important to be like, okay, we don't have a home, but we have this like online community that we can like connect and share art and share stories. And I actually just did a podcast interview with the Assyrian podcast, which was really cool.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_02] So, but yeah, the Aramaic in the beginning, I mean, I, I understand quite a bit of Aramaic, but I like most languages when you stop practicing them, it's harder to speak it. So, but I do find when I'm around other Assyrians or even listening, listening to Arabic, like I went to Lebanon many years ago and just being around Arabic made me think of Assyrian words I hadn't thought of. And so, yeah, my, my sister and I are trying to keep a little like document of, cause there's no Duolingo for Aramaic.

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_02] So we're trying to keep some documentation for ourselves. Shaina is a, my sister is a PhD in Assyriology. So that's really cool. She's one of two Assyrian Assyriologists in the world. So she's pretty badass. And it just, it's cool to have my, my siblings and I share that we want to reconnect. We have like my mom's recipes written down and, and all of that.

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_02] But I'm starting to see more content on online, actually on Instagram, even like different folks, like teaching Assyrian words or like, there's one girl who does this like day, whatever of teaching my boyfriend Assyrian words. And he's like this white guy and he, she'll be like, how do you say? And he'll, she'll just quiz him and he's better at it than me. So I'm like, there are resources and I want to dive into them more, but yeah, I was really grateful to have a, um, a partner to do the voiceover in the beginning.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_05] Have your parents seen this? Your parents still around?

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Yeah. They've seen it. Um, I'm trying to put together, they loved it. Yeah. They, I think that, um, they, yeah, the, it's hard. Like they came over here and in their thirties, I just can't imagine like changing your entire life in your thirties. And I think that like to them, assimilation was like a good thing. And I think that it was, uh, I don't think challenging is the right word, but it's eye

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_02] opening to see the struggles of a first gen kiddo like growing up in America. Cause it's very different than being the immigrant, you know? So, so, and there's, you know, pros and cons to each, but I think it helped us connect more and they're very proud of me and I'm really grateful for them. Yeah. They're wonderful.

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_05] What does climbing look like for you? We haven't really talked to you about, uh, your, your climbing, like, I mean, this is all framed in climbing, but, but you know, what are your aspirations and motivations as a climber?

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_02] Right now I'm in a season of trying to figure that out again. Um, I, yeah, I think it's interesting with climbers, our goals, just like the bar keeps raising. Like, I remember that second year of climbing, I sent that 12 and I was like, I'm done. Like, I can't believe I just did that. I'll never, I don't need to try anything ever again. Cause that's like the most I could ever imagine doing. And then, you know, the next season I'm one hanging in my five 13 project.

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_02] And like, then I'm like, wait, why can't I climb this? So I think I got into this like toxic relationship somewhere a few years ago where I was like expecting myself, putting a lot of pressure on myself to send hard climbs. And right now, I mean, I, yeah, I'm coming off of a pretty significant trauma last year and I'm just trying to feel joy, uh, and safety in the outdoors again.

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_02] And like reconnecting to why I enjoy climbing, which today looks more like empty crags, nervous system that is calm people that I trust and kind of just taking the pressure off. Like I'm not projecting really. And just trying to move on rock in ways that feels good for my body. And sometimes that means top roping all day. And sometimes that means like leading or sticking up certain sections, but leading certain sections. And some days it looks like sending.

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_02] So I, I'm just trying not to define it in one box. It's just like, whatever feels good in that day, in that hour, in that minute. And if it's not feeling good anymore, I stop.

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_05] You just mentioned trauma and I don't think we need to go into it, but to say that, you know, you were there for an accident that was a fatality last year. And so, you know, I understand like having to sort of redefine the way you look at climbing and what, what your needs are and things like that. But do you think, I mean, do you think it'll come back? Do you, do you want climbing to continue? Are you fighting it? What's, what's going on?

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, it is back. I think like depending on the day it's back and it's gone, it's back, it's gone. But like, I was very, I've worked with the climbing grief and trauma therapist through the grief fund at the Alpine club. And, uh, I was very clear early on, like, I don't want to lose this. This is really important to me. And I'm scared I'm going to, if I don't start climbing again soon, I will never do it again. And I will, I won't even, yeah, I'll have a very negative relationship to it.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_02] And so I worked with her on like easing my way in, pushing myself when it's appropriate. And I just continue to do that. And so, yeah, climbing is, it's very important to me and I don't see myself stopping anytime soon. I do think that my relationship to it has changed and will continue to change. I think sometimes perspective, like I just don't care as much anymore, which is good.

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_02] But, but also like, yeah, a reminder that always do your buddy checks and, and, you know, check on the people around you at the crag. And even if you're, you're not in that system, you can still like, you know, I don't know.

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_05] Keep an eye out for other people.

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_02] Watch out for each other.

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_02] It's yeah. It's a, it's a dangerous sport. So I think that it's, it's just, um, it's yeah.

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Yeah. There's these hard reminders that it's a dangerous sport and I feel like younger generation than mine. And maybe this is also just personal, but like the large social aspect of it at the cliff, um, actually it also, it makes, I, you know, it makes me uncomfortable only because it's, you know, we, we had a discussion about ADHD before we did this and, and I have a really

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_05] hard time concentrating and it's the same reason I don't like to be at a big party somewhere that much anymore. And I don't like to be in a loud bar that much anymore. It's like all of a sudden the, and the crag was, you know, and again, with my generation, I think this was more in the ethos of like, well, the solitude is what we talk about and going out, you know, and all of a sudden that's sort of been replaced. And yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned that now that maybe makes you a little uncomfortable probably for those same reasons.

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think it's just all about regulating my nervous system and I feel a sense of responsibility for not, you know, I was, I was a third in a group and I've never checked at other parties knots before, or like, you know, when I'm not in the system, but I walking away from that day, like now I do. And I'm not saying everyone should feel the responsibility of checking for other people, but yeah, watching out for one another.

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_02] And I'm teaching a clinic here tomorrow with, for Scarpa and it's intro to lead climbing. And I think that's, you know, I don't want to scare anyone. It's not about scaring people, but being pretty direct about like, this is serious. And these are, this is why you should take body checks seriously. And here's how we talk about safety and how we make sure that we're watching out for one another. And I think that's just really important because it's just so easy to be casual, especially when you're an experienced climber.

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. That's the interesting thing is it's like the more experienced people like blow that stuff off and, you know, and the reason I throw up that like kind of atmosphere is that, um, is that it's super fun and we're all goofing and it's just some silly thing. It's sport climbing. Like it, and when I said, it's like a brutal reminder every once in a while that, yeah, we are, it's still climbing. And yeah, statistically it's very, very safe and you mostly can get away with a few mistakes

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_05] here and there, but then every once in a while it just, it unfortunately, and unfortunately you were real close to that. And I, I feel terrible for you.

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's not something I wish on anyone. Yeah. I'm, I'm working through it and, um, it's changed a lot of things in life, but, um, um, I will continue to fight because that's what I've been doing and I will continue to do.

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_05] All right, folks. Thanks for listening. And thanks to Shara for showing up at the pronghorn and Lander and sitting down. I just love the tone of Shara's voice. There's this certain sonorous quality to it that, that I just love. I, I told her that after we got done recording, I think she was flattered, but I loved it. And I think it's worth giving some details about the accident we ended with there. Shara and I had actually talked about whether or not we were going to get to it in this interview

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_05] before we started, whether it was something we really wanted to drill down on. We decided that it wasn't because we had a different story to tell. Although she said she was open to talk about it. I'm glad it got mentioned. It's affected her deeply. And I think it's unfortunately part of her arc as a climber, but the details are as follows. On June 26, 2025, climber John Schleicher suffered a fatal groundfall after his knot came undone

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_05] while climbing at the Funkytown Crag in Ten Sleep. Shara was there with another person who was belaying John. Whatever the sequence of events were, of course, John had been distracted in some way and didn't finish his knot. A simple, terrible accident. And of course, I advocate checking each other's knots on this show. And Shara and the belayer certainly relive that and wish that they had glanced at the knot.

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_05] However, in my opinion, in these accidents, the climber is the only person who really is responsible. But survivor's guilt is real. And I know that Shara has worked hard to get through it. And I hope the Blair, whose name I do not know, has done the same. And though it's been over a year and it's way past due, I extend my sincere condolences to the friends and family of John Schleicher. I myself may have met John.

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_05] I recognize his face from Rifle. But my heart goes out to those that were close to John. So I suppose I should go through the motions just like you should and say, as usual here on the Enormacast, don't forget to check your knots.

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_00] I'm sorry. I'll be here, let us know. We'll see the future of the world's death and the next year. We'll see the future of the world's great stories.

[01:06:32] [SPEAKER_00] We'll see a future future. We'll see you next time. We'll see you next time.

[01:06:50] Thank you.