Enormocast 327: Karly Rager – Days of Glory

[00:00:00] You are listening to the Enormocast. As you know, Arc'teryx Equipment is a proud sponsor of the Enormocast. And as such, they have once again invited the Royal We to the 16th Annual Arcteryx Academy in Squamish, BC, August 21st to the 23rd. Arcteryx was born in the Coast Mountains of British Columbia and the Academy was initiated as a way to bring the climbing community together

[00:00:29] and also to celebrate the roots of Arcteryx and the long and storied history of granite adventures wrought above the Howl Sound by climbers not afraid of a little moss and a dicey smear. The Academy is a mashup of clinics, events, films, music, talks, food, drink, and conversation embracing the vertical world. And yours truly will be on the main stage during Happy Hour Friday and Saturday with the Struggle Podcast Ryan Devlin and a slew of Squamish luminaries.

[00:00:57] That's right folks, a slew. For more information, go to squamish.arcteryxacademy.com or use the Google. Hope to see you there and I promise this time I won't complain about the noise. For more information, visit our website at www.blogspot.com Listen, where are you playing in town? Where are you playing in town? Are you playing here? Where are you doing the Normo Dome, whatever it is? It's terrific. Oh yeah, a big place, that side of town. That's a big place, you sold it out. You sold it out. I'll see, it's only really should.

[00:01:27] What the hell are you doing? I couldn't sleep. I'm checking the ropes. There was a freight end on your rope and I'm cutting it out. No, later, anything. Today's show is brought to you by La Sportiva, Arcteryx Equipment,

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[00:02:29] Hello and welcome to the NormoCast. This is your host, Chris Caloose. It is July 25th, 2026, about 8 a.m. here in Colorado. And this is episode 327 of the NormoCast. A conversation with climber, coach, entrepreneur, Carly Rager. In addition to Carly having an amazing last name, she's a coach for her own company, Project Direct Coaching.

[00:02:56] She's a refugee from corporate America and just a climber. Western United States based, sort of based in Boulder via South Dakota. And an impressive woman who's made a life for herself in climbing after leaving the pressurized world of corporate structural engineering and living in a van down by various rivers. And after kind of a mellow spring, things have ramped up here business-wise at the EnormoCast.

[00:03:26] I have several things coming up as we scoot into the end of the summer. As previously mentioned, I'm going to be up at the Arcteryx Academy in Squamish the August weekend of the 22nd. I'm actually going to be there the week beforehand. So if any Squamish locals are around, I'll be trudging around town leading up to that. And on Friday and Saturday nights, both nights going to be doing a live podcast with my friend and podcast colleague, Ryan Devlin of the Struggle Podcast,

[00:03:56] doing the happy hour before the main events, both those nights. It's not just going to be Ryan and I. We're going to have a bunch of guests warm everybody up for the main events those nights. So come check it out. August 21st, 22nd, 23rd, the official dates up there in Squamish, BC. And then the love fest with Ryan Devlin continues. He has asked me to be his partner for the 24 hours of horseshoe hell. Never been. It's long overdue.

[00:04:26] So yeah, horseshoe hell 23rd to the 27th of September with Ryan Devlin going to be competing poorly. I'm sure. But you know, we're going to give her, see what happens. Ryan says he's going to be training on his tread wall. I'm probably just going pure old man strength. So whatever reserves I already got. But of course, it's all about the fun and the friends you meet and beat along the way. Then I'm rolling into a little festival in early October up in Bend.

[00:04:56] And then, and then, and then I've been invited back to Banff again in early November. So many things going on. So much travel. I always love it when I get there, but I don't love the prospect of being gone in the fall here in Colorado. It's too good. I live in the cradle of some of the best sport climbing in the United States and big route climbing for that matter. But I'm pretty good at having a good time when I'm out in the world meeting and greeting.

[00:05:22] So more info on the ladder events forthcoming. Okay, let's get to Carly Rager. I met Carly and your Ray some years ago, just kind of in passing. And we casually mentioned maybe doing it at NormaCast. Took a little while to get that done, but we sat down up in Lander. I was up at the Fest a couple of weeks ago. It was old school, sitting in a hotel room in Lander.

[00:05:49] Luckily, luckily we had this hotel room because I think it was 104 that day. So we had the shades drawn and the AC on. Carly got a little taste of climbing in her home state of South Dakota and then went on to really get into it at my alma mater, Colorado State University, where she also received a couple degrees, important degrees, engineering degrees. And then she left college and went into that world, but found it unsatisfying.

[00:06:18] She found her needs in climbing more compelling. She found her enjoyment of coaching much deeper than her work in the structural engineering world. So she bailed, started a coaching company, Project Direct Coaching, all by herself at first. But now she has a stable of coaches over there and is a successful business. So one of the cool things about this interview is a little bit of a roadmap.

[00:06:44] If not a roadmap, at least some tips or at least the glimmer of hope that making a life in climbing that not only fulfills your climbing goals, but pays the bills is in fact possible. If like Carly, the circumstances are right and you're willing to take the risk. Like many inspiring climbers before her, she dipped from what she was quote unquote supposed to do and went out on her own. And has become quite successful with it.

[00:07:12] And I know a lot of people out there listen to this podcast because they don't have enough climbing in their life. I've been told many times that this is a lifeline of people who, you know, get out on the weekends if they can, go to the gym, but are always yearning for more. So those yearnings are getting to the breaking point. Maybe Carly Rager can be an inspiration to you to make some moves. So let's get to it.

[00:07:39] Conversation with project direct coaching founder and load star Carly Rager. The year is 2016. We're still reckoning with the sudden mainstream interest in TCKJ and the Dawn wall. Climbing had been confirmed for the Olympics and the whining about speed climbing was just getting ramped up. Though his magnum opus silence remained in the future. Andra is tearing up 515.

[00:08:09] Tick tock innocently appears in September and we remain blithely unaware of what a social media climbing influencer is. But, perhaps the most groundbreaking climbing leap in 2016, at least according to this commercial, the introduction of the Sportiva Squama. So futuristic, it remains cutting edge 10 years on. No one thought a high performing shoe could handle all terrain and feel this good doing it.

[00:08:38] Yet there it was, in our hands, on our feet, and nestled in our souls like a little baby bird quietly cooing. And to mark this monumental moment in climbing history, Sportiva has introduced a celebratory color scheme for the 2026 Squama. While retaining its essential nature as the baddest shoe in the land. So go back to the future and head over to sportivana.com or your favorite local shop. And check out any permutation of the legendary Squama.

[00:09:07] So the first time I was in Ten Sleep, gosh, it must have been 2011. Something like that. Like early on in my climbing and Tensleep is where I was going a lot. It's very different than it is now. I think it was like mid-June and we ran into maybe two climbers for a week, which was wild. But very different than the Tensleep that you see this time of year now. I had a rest day and heard about this hot springs in Thermopolis or Thermop and we were like, sure, check it out.

[00:09:36] But I didn't even know that that was going to be a part. I don't even think I had a swimsuit. I don't really know why. We went to the Thermopolis hot springs and at that time you could actually rent swimming suits for like $2 or something like that. And there was only one swimming suit that they had that would like fit me. And it was like a, it was like a one, it was a leopard print onesie and like a rental leopard print onesie. Just like, yeah. And I was like, well, I guess that's who I am now.

[00:10:03] And we just hung out for like, you know, five hours and at the Thermopolis hot springs and in my leopard print onesie. And, you know, I was like, I never knew that I might, might be down with that swimsuit style, but I definitely considered it after that trip. And I think about that now and I'm like, that's so gross. Come on. They probably laundered it. I mean, in theory, they laundered it. I don't know. A lot of those places, the swimsuit rental is also the lost and found.

[00:10:32] Um, fully. And I feel like that might've been a little bit what was going on. They're like, I don't know. We'll get two more dollars out of this girl. She seems like she could rock this. Sure. That place is kind of, um, legendary. I don't know. Anybody goes to tent sleep. If you're there for a while and you don't go to the star plunge, uh, which is what it's called there in Thermopolis, you're missing out on that, that janky, um, water slide to the blue thunder. It's a quintessential Wyoming experience. Yeah.

[00:11:01] And then the weird, like steel platform diving thing. Do you remember that? I don't remember that. It's just like a welded steel, like one story sort of cage thing with a board sticking off of it. Yeah. Not a diving board, an actual board. The whole thing just kind of feels like somebody is like, I don't know, I could do that. Yeah. I got like a, I got some tools out there. Well, I heard they, I heard that it's closed right now. Um, and the person who told me this said, quote, some sort of legal trouble. Hmm.

[00:11:30] So I don't know if that's financial or if it's, I think it's soon. I think it's rental swimsuit related. Yeah. Some disease that someone got. Um, but don't let that deter you if it does open back up. But, um, for the record, they don't rent swimsuits anymore. I've been there like in like the last six, seven years. Now you can like buy swimsuits. So I don't know when that era ended or whatever happened to that leopard print onesie, but you know, rest in peace. So it's, it's interesting.

[00:11:57] An early, early ish adopter of climbing intense sleep and not early, early because it got developed to a certain level, you know, by Aaron Huey and the crew, the original sort of crew. And then it actually kind of like uninhabited, like you said for, for a while. And then I don't know, I think probably more like the last, you know, five to seven years it's had its resurgence and maybe 10 years ago had a lot of more development and stuff like that. Yeah. It's kind of interesting.

[00:12:27] How did you become a person who found 10 sleep that at that point? You know, that's a good question. I mean, I was in Fort Collins at the time. Um, that's where I went to school. So I got my undergrad and grad there. So I was there in like six years, all said and done. Mm hmm. So a lot of the climbing that I was doing is like the Poudre Canyon and those early formative years of climbing and 10 sleep was sort of, I mean, it's further north, but outside of Veda Vu as you went into Wyoming, it was made sense to go check that place out.

[00:12:53] And I think I was kind of that classic archetype of dancer climber, you know, techie stuff was easier for me. I hadn't learned how to be powerful or learn how to use momentum and climbing and to go in on like the more overt stuff was more fun at that time. And it's just kind of, I feel like that's kind of a common story, but yeah. And I just like the hang. I like that there is no service when you're climbing, you go up there and you're just like kind of checked out and just up there. And that was really cool.

[00:13:22] So yeah, somewhat talked about a lot in Fort Collins because it's just a ways north. And then yeah, the style, I think, which is funny because now I don't feel like that's my best style at all. But for that period of time, I was pretty psyched on it. What do you think? You're better at steep stuff now? Is that what you're getting at? Yeah. Well, I don't know if I'm better at it or I enjoy it more. So then I'm better at it. Right. But yeah, usually I like to express a little momentum, a little power, a little pop-pop

[00:13:49] now more than I used to now that I'm more comfortable with it. Did you start climbing at CSU? Or what had you climbed before that? Technically, I climbed for the first time in like 2008 in the Black Hills. I'm from South Dakota originally. Okay. And went out with like, we would always go out to the Black Hills. That was like very formative for my childhood is like running around in the hills. My parents were like, all right, like just be back by dinner. Like go run, run around in the hills. And then, you know, so I've been like 18.

[00:14:16] We were out there with some families and a friend. My father, my friend signed us up for like a rock climbing day with Sylvan, Sylvan Rocks. And I had like a gymnastics background and also just kind of like a general enjoyment of like intense experiences. So I did like one day of it. I was like, oh, my God, I'll do this forever. And my mom was like not psyched about it. She was like, was barely psyched about me trying it once.

[00:14:43] And I think she saw like, you know, some, you know, hellfire in my eyes when I like got down from like my first pitch of five, seven on top rope. And she was like, oh, fuck. This is going to be a thing. But I was like 18 at that time. And then, you know, like I didn't have any of the gear like like didn't have just like poor college kid, you know, so psyched on it.

[00:15:05] But it took a while and just some life to kind of get into it regularly, which probably happened at CSU because there's like a climbing gym in the rec center and more kids doing it. And I like could find people to mentor me, you know, just as basic. Here's how you clear an anchor. Here's how you go out. And then, yeah, for the first chunk of time, though, is a lot of trying to find partners. And I was always kind of ended up only. I think it's interesting. I like coach people now ended up like I was always the one that was going to put the rope up. So like I was going to have to lead it. I was going to figure it out.

[00:15:34] And there wasn't stick clips back then. So it's like you got to figure this out because you need that caribbeaner back or that drawback because like you only have 10 and you saved up for those 10 draws for all summer. So like you need to get to the top of this 11B like for sure. You're the that was kind of in the Poudre Canyon. A lot of what I was doing and just figuring it out, you know, just going through those those figuring it out years. So you were a gymnastics kid? Yeah, I think I was like climbing trees.

[00:16:04] And my mom, my mom was like, I would just put her somewhere that's related and says in gymnastics from the age three to 14. And like pretty competitively up near, you know, age 13, 14. But gymnastics in the 90s was kind of intense. It was really intense. And it wasn't, I don't think actually the healthiest environment, but I was really naturally inclined or predisposed to being good at it and kind of built for it to like I'm shorter and muscular.

[00:16:31] So I was in gymnastics and then it was like age 14. I got bumped up to like the next level, kind of like the pre elite level where it was going to be four and a half hours per practice for practices a week meets every weekend. It was going to turn into my life. Like then I was like, I don't actually like this enough. Like it was like the, it's like the, you know, you're 14. So you're not like, it's hard to have perspective, but like, you're like, okay, I'm good at this. And I didn't even realize there was an option to not do it.

[00:17:01] Right. You know, and then luckily, you know, was given the option to like, hey, do you actually really want to make this your entire life? You know, and gymnastics and that. I mean, I'll say like militaristic and culty is the vibe of the gymnastics scene in 1999 or whatever, you know, it was pretty intense. So I have memories of being like shoved into the overextended splits while like tears are coming down my face by like the Eastern European coaches. And like, that was just normal.

[00:17:30] And I think anybody that did gymnastics in that era would be like, yeah, that was, that was what was going on. I was very naturally good at it, but I don't actually think I loved it in the way that you would want to be like, this is my whole life now. So kind of pulled out of being, being as competitive with it during that time. And then I also played soccer and that kind of was more fun. So I just did that. Yeah.

[00:17:52] I mean, I like that story comes through on this podcast quite often from women, usually for the gymnastics. I don't think I've talked to any guy gymnast on here. Yeah. I wonder what they would think. I don't know. While you were talking, I was literally thinking that I was like, gotta wonder what it is. I mean, it's obviously not as popular for men. And there's not as many events and things like that, but they're out there.

[00:18:18] And I, yeah, I wonder if they have a similar experience because so many women I've talked to are like, yeah, then it just got crazy. And I was like, I hated every minute of it. And I was fucking injured. And then, you know, yeah, some point I did want to go out and like, hang out with my friends and meet some boys or something. And like, there was no time to do that. And like, except for the other gymnast guys, I guess. Yeah. I don't even think I had that thought. I think I just saw somebody get paralyzed and I was like, maybe not this. All right. Was that hard? Yeah.

[00:18:46] Like, well, I, but I kind of wondered, I've, I've brought this up elsewhere. Maybe it's not quite as intense, but at times I feel that vibe coming from climbing programs. And, and I've definitely talked to plenty of young competitive climbers who maybe not, it didn't sound as like kind of harrowing is what you're talking about, but they had the same realization of like, this is too much for me and I'm not really enjoying myself anymore.

[00:19:14] And I think I hear from the ones that then went on to like, find a way to enjoy climbing, but I would imagine there's tons that that's it. I'm done. I'm not climbing anymore ever again, because this is too much for me. Yeah. Well, and I think the similarity between like a competitive gymnastics team and a competitive climbing team is that you are on a team, but you're not like you are still compete when you go to a comp or you go to a gymnastics meet, like you are competing against all your teammates that you know well or no, you know, and have.

[00:19:45] And so it's kind of weird. And I think it creates static, you know, for like, I wasn't a comp kid in the climbing world, you know, at all. But like, I felt that in the gymnastics world, we're like training together, but then all of a sudden we're at the comp and all the people that were on your team or your competition. And there was a lot of discussion about like, how do we work with that? And maybe in climbing, maybe more, maybe it's, that might be a discussion that's coming, becoming more common. But again, I wasn't a comp kid. I climbed outside for like four years before I ever went to a gym. And I was like, what's these plastic bouldery things?

[00:20:14] You know, like I was just out on rock. And so I don't have the comp experience, but if it was similar to gymnastics experience, there was a lot of tension at those meets because you weren't, you're actually competing against your teammates and like you're 13 or 12. And it's like, how do we, you know, you don't know how to talk about that or work with that. And so you can like that tension can be kind of palpable and probably create those spaces where people are like, wow, this is like, is this fun? Do I love this?

[00:20:41] But with comp climbing or climbing in general, it's actually kind of cool because you can climbing, you can do so many different things to get fulfilled. Like there's so many styles and ways that you can enjoy climbing. Whereas gymnastics, once you leave, like, like I've, I thought it'd be fun to go back to a gymnastics like center or something like that. Cause I can still do some things and just like fuck around for a little bit, but it's really not set up that way. There's no outlet. Right. Yeah. Like I couldn't go be like, I'm like a casual gymnast that like does gymnastics a few times a week.

[00:21:11] You get together with your friends and do gymnastics. That's not a thing. No, that'd be cool. I mean, like those bounce houses though, have you seen those trampoline parks? Yeah. And I know the people who were former gymnasts. Yeah. Cause there's always some mom who's like clearing the kids out of there and then does some rad thing. And I'm like, Oh yeah, you were a gymnast and you're here, you know, it's like, but yeah, it's, I think, I mean, I've, I've commented on like a lot of sports are like that, right? You, you do them competitively.

[00:21:39] If you're, you know, really into it, you do them through college and then most people, you know, then they have like maybe a summer league or something, but a lot of people don't. Um, and climbing is a, yeah, it's a little bit different thing. And I mean, the, the comp climbing thing, I mean, I want to talk about you. So we'll move on from this, but you know, I've, I just keep seeing a few of these patterns that we, we saw for years in, in gymnastics. And I'm like, you guys, how come you're not learning from that?

[00:22:07] You know, cause now we have these stories of coaches abusing, you know, competitive climbers and, um, you know, talking to some, some folks like Alana Yip. Like, you know, I was like, is there like an, is there a way to, you know, report all these things? Do they have a structure? And she's like, yeah, no, kind of. And I'm like, come on, we got, you know, 50 years of gymnastics to look at and be like, there's some lessons there, right? There's some lessons. Yeah, exactly. Right. Anyhow, let's move on.

[00:22:36] I just wanted to get that gymnastics thing in there because yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely a conduit sometimes to climbing because again, you're, when you start climbing, especially at 18, your body was in many ways prepared for it. It was. Yeah, for sure. Like I could. But it sounds like your mind was prepared for it too, because, you know, one of the things that a lot of people talk about, I talk about is like, there's adventure in even just like a top rope in the black Hills if you've never done it before. Yeah.

[00:23:04] And in adventure, I think the main thing we don't like sort of extrapolate to is that it's freedom, you know? And I, I always remember feeling like this incredible sense of freedom and it was like, I don't exactly know what that means, but you just, your body was just like, I have this potential and I have this, this, like, it can go really far for me. Yeah.

[00:23:29] I mean, what was your feelings around the year, like, as you gathered more steam and climbing, um, again, versus maybe like this very structured world of gymnastics that had, had trained you to be physically fit and ready for this. Yeah. And able to be on my arms. Yeah. Like, cause that was a thing that I, yeah, bars was my main event. So it was like, I've been hanging from my ingle dangling from ours since I was three. So that felt normal.

[00:23:56] Uh, but yeah, I think the, uh, also when I found climbing, I was in school for engineering. So I was dealing with like a highly structured life outside of climbing too. And I think one, I think I always like craved the intensity of like those quiet moments of like being up and out and it's intense and it's, but that in that it's cool because it's like physical, mental, emotional, problem solving, creative. You're up, you're high.

[00:24:22] There's like a lot of just like a lot of stimulus in that, that makes it feel like such a full experience or rich experience. But then you're also sharing it with somebody, you know, with sharing with your partners. So it was like all those things that, you know, and I wouldn't say any of those things I was getting from maybe engineering at that time. So it was like, kind of made me feel alive or maybe that's like how I would describe it and like freedom alive or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like something I was like, yeah. It's hard to put it into words, right? Yeah. Kind of like the something.

[00:24:51] There was like something there where I was like, obviously I'm craving this experience. Um, and want to continue to seek it out and explore, you know, climbing so cool. So you can explore it in all these different ways. But yeah, it was like, I was in engineering or where they're working as an engineer and in school for engineering. And then climbing was like that outlet of like aliveness, like going camping, howling at the moon.

[00:25:14] I mean, doing backcountry trips, doing even just like going up and hiking a bunch of 14 years in Colorado or doing an alpine route or, oh, what's sport climbing? Oh, that's cool. We can get like trying hard is fucking cool. Like it feels good. And that intensity feels good or it feels alive. And I think that was like a big part of why I was like, oh yeah, like I'm in on this, you know, and in whatever way it's going to take me. And there's like, yeah, there's unknowns. There's unpredictability.

[00:25:44] There's novelty. There's like so much of our day to day in a lot of people's lives, I think is pretty like, it's like a bit sterile as structure. There's like, there's, you know, a lot less unknown. And maybe some people, to some extent we get comfort out of that to have, there's some limit to the amount of unknowns. Like we all need some amount of stability and comfort.

[00:26:10] But I kind of feel like the reason climbing is blown up a bit is because we also crave that other side, whatever that wildness is or that like, like, you know, that like primal that we get. Maybe if we're trying really hard on route that we're not going to get, we'll wake up, make coffee, work at our desk, answer our emails, check our to-do list off, try not to have an existential crisis while you vacuum. Like, and then go to sleep. Like, like, we're not, I don't know, we're missing that from general modern life. And so I do think they're there.

[00:26:40] If you already have an enjoyment of a full intense experience, you go out and you fucking try hard on a climb. You're like, yeah. Like, great. Like I needed that. Like that felt good. And that's that like effort level or that in your body, in your mind at the same time thing, I think was really a big part of why I was like, okay, I want to do this a lot. So let's explore your problem with vacuuming. You looked at my van right now, the floor of my van right now.

[00:27:08] You're like, yeah, she does have a problem with vacuuming. No, I think it's interesting what you're saying because, you know, one of the things that I see is this, this, you know, pivot point in your life is that you were, you did study and you graduated as an engineer. What type of engineering? So my undergrad is in civil and then my master's degree is in structural engineering. And then I worked as a structural engineer for four years. Right. And so you graduated, you went to college, you got a master's degree, pleasing your parents, I'm sure. Yeah.

[00:27:35] Checking all the boxes, like you're okay, you're successful. Yeah. And I said that because of what you said about your mom being worried that you'd become a climber. And then you worked for four years and then you bailed. Yeah. And all those things you're just saying are, we're kind of illuminating as to probably why you found that unfulfilling. But what about that?

[00:27:59] I mean, it must've been, I mean, I don't know how, if it was, you can explain, maybe you didn't just like one day, you know, slam your laptop shut. Walk out the door. But yeah, talk about that transition. You know, did you have guilt? Were you like, I, you know, maybe your folks paid for it, maybe whatever. Or, you know, I, this is what I'm supposed to be doing and I'm decent at it and why don't I just keep doing it? And yeah, tell me about that transition.

[00:28:27] Cause it's, I think it's something that a lot of people dream about. And a lot of people listen to my show, hear about. Yeah. And, you know, you can't quite push yourself over because for a million reasons and some of them very valid, you know, like stability, but also like maybe you're supporting someone. Maybe you have kids, like you can't just walk away.

[00:28:48] But I think it was a cumulative effect of kind of a lot of things that like, I think about it like a scale where like, eventually the fear of the unknown of doing my own thing or quitting. Like there was a fear in that there's a lack of stability in that there is a, what does it look like? I don't know. There was a disappointment of, you know, I have this nice little business card. This is Carly Rager, structural engineer, you know, that whatever stability or validation that provides getting rid of all of that. I mean, it's admirable.

[00:29:17] I mean, you trained yourself, you became accomplished at this very difficult thing. And I'm sure people were like, wow, that's really cool. And you're, I can't believe you're, you know, that and I just do this. And anyway, continue. Yeah. But that's just another one of those things that you'd be potentially giving up. Who are you without? Oh, I'm a structural engineer. And then people validating you as that being like, oh, you must be smart. Oh, you must do well. Oh, what is that doing for my own?

[00:29:44] Um, like how much do I need that validation from others? You know, and so there's kind of the fear about leaving all of that. And, and I think a lot of people that I've talked to that are engineers or otherwise working in either engineering or the construction industry or some more of that, like, like corporate America type work, you know, where they like have that fear. And I think it's, I get it because I had it too.

[00:30:08] And I think there is just a point though, where that fear and all of that unknown becomes more tolerable than what you're currently doing. And until that scale really tips and you like, you know, eclipse the even level and, and then you look at what you're currently doing and you're like, that actually looks scarier to me. You'll never make the change. And that's just like, I think human nature until there's like a consequence that you're really, really deeply unhappy with. You aren't going to make a change.

[00:30:36] And so like, you know, for a lot of people that are saying in it, I think it's, it's fine. Cause right. Like you, that hasn't skipped, you know, that hasn't flipped that, um, we haven't crossed that threshold. And so, so it makes sense to say in it if you haven't. And I was just in a situation where it did. Um, and so it was like, I think of the combination of so many things, like one, I have a lot of energy and it's a lot of desk time. So just like sitting at a desk nine hours a day or whatever was just like, just kind of coming unglued a little bit.

[00:31:06] And then, um, engineering is really, I think almost predatory. It's like almost predatory the way that engineering is, um, I think advertised by universities to 18, 19 year olds. It's like, you're going to be an engineer. It's a good job. You're going to have money. You're going to be successful. It's going to be a thing. Everybody's going to give you that validation of like, oh, you're smart. Oh, you're like good at things like that kind of stuff. But the reality is the housing market is insane. Wage stagnation is insane.

[00:31:34] So I was kind of at the cusp of that, you know, like the Bozeman housing market blew up like while I was making less money because I was living in Bozeman. And I was actively involved in the construction industry that was making the Bozeman market blow up. And then the only people that could afford to live in Bozeman were working at the San Francisco coding job salary moving to Bozeman during COVID. And so like the, there was some financial bits of that of like, damn, like I'm working hard. Like if I mess up and I'm on a deadline, like people can die. Like I'm a structural engineer.

[00:32:04] It's my job to keep the building safe. And I'm not making enough money to live comfortably, you know? And there's some of that was building. The desk time I didn't love. I love climbing more. I was coaching at the climbing gym in town. And so there was like kind of that bubble was brewing a little, brewing a little. And then COVID hit. And I remember I really actually just enjoyed my coworkers, but that got ripped away.

[00:32:27] So now I'm double, dual monitor, wake up, sit down at my like dual monitor, work through framing details for six hours, you know, then answer emails and work through more. And it's all stressful, but now I don't have coworkers. And then I found out that somebody I was actively training was making more money than me. Oh man, you're making my stomach hurt. And then I was like, I would like more than an inflation raise, please, because the median housing costs in Bozeman just went up 40% in a year.

[00:32:55] And then I got told I was being ungrateful despite having like five star reviews and all this shit. So there was kind of like, there was a bubble. And then I think there was a few things that like popped that bubble. Right. And now I saw, wow, all that fear I had about like the unknown is so much better than dealing with this bullshit. Like I'm for sure out like peace. And like, I don't know exactly what it looks like, but I know that is not it.

[00:33:19] And so I will move into 1991 Econoline and drive to St. George, like figure it out from there. Yeah. It's a good year for Econolines. It's a great year. That thing was steel. Dude, that was like a, you heard her coming before you saw her coming. Her name, it was red. It was a red 1991 Econoline. I named her Scarlett Jovanson. And she, yeah, yeah. She, she bumped.

[00:33:48] There was, it's quite the, and you know, obviously then I, I gave up whatever you get in the validation and security. And like my parents were like, what are you doing? You're moving to an Econoline. And I was like, I don't know. But like maybe to some extent I do appreciate the engineering world because it gave me confidence in my own ability to figure things out. You know, like. Your structurally, structurally engineering life. I guess. There's like, here's variables. Here are the ones that you can't change. Here's the ones that you can change. Here's the relationship between all of them.

[00:34:17] Like start fucking with it, you know, and see what you can come up with. See what feels good. And kind of clean slate in that way for me. And then I think there was also motivation surrounding like climbing, different styles, different areas, traveling. I'd always really love to travel. Fucking shitty crack climber because there wasn't a lot of that around where I was. And some of that stuff you do have to be geographically resourced. If you want to get better at crack climbing, you're not going to do it if you're an intense sleeper. Right. You know, like it's not there.

[00:34:46] So when you, these four years you were working, what did your climbing look like during that time? So weekend warrior. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I would say. Coaching at the gym, you said. I was at the gym a lot and a lot of training because that's something, you know, I was like pressing glass at 6 a.m. at Spire to do my strength work. And then I go to engineering. I worked as an engineer for nine hours.

[00:35:10] And I'd go back in the evening and either do my own climbing and bouldering or training or coach in the evening. So they're big, long days. And so I was like doing a lot of that during the week because that's what I had access to. And then going out and climbing on the weekends and taking, you know, a lot of corporate America, you're going to get like 15 days off a year, you know. So I'd take like two week long climbing trips or something like that. But mostly weekend warrior. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:35] Just doing as much as I could with like what I had to work with within that very structured kind of circumstance. So that's what I was doing, which was cool. And I got to get a lot of experience training and learn about that. But I just wasn't climbing outside as much as I would have liked. And bigger adventures or new styles or climbing in international locations was not really super available to me. So, yeah, that's what it kind of looked like. Yeah.

[00:36:04] The jet lag pay for a one week trip to another, like to Europe or something isn't hardly worth it. No, not at all. I mean, it seems like, I mean, as I've had a kid and we have, you know, I'm a sort of a family guy. We've gone on a couple trips that were like three weeks. And I was like, the first time I did that, I was like, no, you go for like four months because you bought a ticket. But like, well, my life is no longer that. But you know what I mean? Like, yeah, this feeling like you don't buy a ticket to Europe for two weeks.

[00:36:33] Like, that's just a waste of money, you know, kind of a thing. Yeah. I'm terrible at jet lag too. It takes me forever to recover from jet lag. I've tried all the things and everybody's, no, you do this and this or you take the ambient now and then you do and then, I don't know. No combination of ambient weed and melatonin works for me. I'm going to sleep till noon. It's going to be a thing. We do not recommend a combination of what was just that? Ambient weed and melatonin. That is not an official Enormicast. Disclaimer, that is not what we are recommending.

[00:37:02] The Enormicast does not recommend mixing those things together to recover from jet lag. I also went to CSU and learned to climb there. I didn't know that. Yeah, I went to CSU and learned to climb there a long time before you did. I also left home in a, in my case, a Dodge cargo van that was also cherry red. So, yeah. Very nice. Did it have a name? It didn't have a name. It's okay. I know. It's okay. It did have, also have chrome mag wheels though. Hell yeah. Yeah. And it was a three speed stick on the floor.

[00:37:33] It had like this like two foot tall stick that was right next to your seat. And only three speeds. So, you're just like dogging it in second gear to try to get to third. That's super funny. But anyhow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, there you go. I think that's an important, I think, gosh, there's this, I listened to this album for the first time in forever. It's like, I have this band called The Double Makes Three and it's like, there's this lyric that's like, everybody that's anybody lived in an alley in an attic one day or something.

[00:38:00] And I think about that with like, there's so many people that I know that were like, you know, maybe now they're having a little more figured out that like got to that point where there was a tipping point and the right, like you moving into your dodge with the three speed was you had decided better than what you were doing. And like, it didn't look that pretty or put together at that time. And you didn't have all the answers at that time, but you knew that like, you know, you're kind of like, okay, but not this. Yeah.

[00:38:28] Like, so like for a while it's going to look like this and I live in my car and, uh, and that's fine. It's like, it's, it doesn't feel like suffering because it feels like it's, or suffering, but like, that's kind of like a loaded word, but like, it doesn't feel like. Well, it doesn't feel like what it looks like to the outside. Exactly. Right. Exactly. Like your internal experience is very different from what it, you know, maybe it feels like freedom or you're headed towards that or whatever that means for you as a, as a person.

[00:38:55] Um, well, it's interesting because I also think that the experience of whether it's like some crappy van and you've got like, you know, your one burner stove and, you know, or a jet boil and that's it. And like, it's, I I've noticed how people now that have really, really built out super sick vans, they're, they're kind of like too attached to them in a way. Do you know what I mean?

[00:39:21] Like I had this attachment to that van, but it was because it was a place to get out of the rain. End of story. Right. Yeah. Cause otherwise I cooked out, I had, there was nothing in it. I didn't have like it all kitted out. Yeah. And, um, you know, and I talked to people who still kind of avoid the sort of van life because they say, yeah, because I, I get out of the car and I cook outside. I mean, um, it's just kind of interesting that even our tendency is to still like acquire

[00:39:49] this kind of material attachment to things and that grows in climbing as well. Even if you are like this kind of like off grid sort of person, you're like fully into your kit. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Totally. And we all do it. I'm not, I'm not saying. No, no, no. Totally. I mean, I named, I mean, I named it, you know, right. Obviously you don't want to, I guess I didn't have a pet. And I no longer lay in the back of a cargo van on shag carpet. Yeah. Um, and sleep with a one burner stove either. I have a much nicer rig now. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:19] Yeah. Yeah. But the rite of passage that it is, is I think really cool. I think so too. And I think there's also a little bit of freedom of knowing that I don't mind that. Like, and then what if I did like what, what I did and I, and now I don't, yeah, now I don't live in my 1991. Which could. But damn, I could. And it didn't really bother me that much, you know? And like, there's some freedom in that and just being like, I don't know, like knowing that that's fine.

[00:40:45] And that simplicity in some ways was nice and maybe not forever, but like, you know, I always think, I think of the Chris Farley skit. Right. It's like living in a van down, like one more year living, not living in a van down by the river. And I'm like, shit, I'd live in a van down the river before I went back to engineering. That's for sure. No, I have, I have days where I'm just like, Oh, that was so nice. Yeah. And actually I moved, I downgraded for most of my kind of road climbing career to a cab

[00:41:14] high topper on the back of a, of a Toyota pickup. So yeah, I got even more simplified. And, um, I, I don't know if I could even climb in and out of that thing anymore. Cause I had, it was like coffin style where when you're laying down, like the roof was like five, five or six inches from your face. Yeah. It would be getting out. I could get in in the morning, waking up and like trying to do the wiggle out.

[00:41:40] You know, anyway, Lindsay, Lindsay Hamm and I went, went on length about that, but, um, yeah. So, I mean, then what's your life look like? So you've, you've, you've moved into your van. Mom at least is rolling her eyes. Oh, well that was, yeah, that was in 2021 when I, yeah, when I started project direct coaching and kind of turned, you know, made this big change. Um, now it's a little different.

[00:42:06] And so I, now it's like, I was talking with a friend about this is I kind of feel like I occupy maybe two worlds a little bit. Like I did buy a condo just North of Boulder and now I have a 2005 Econoline. Apparently I'm an Econoline girl. And then when I'm not, when I'm traveling, I rent out my place and then I kind of, I kind of feel like I go back and forth between being like a full dirt bag, living in a van down by the river and then having kind of like this nice condo that I'm in like half the time. And it is nice to have that home.

[00:42:36] Like, I think I worked for a long time to be able to exist in both of those worlds and actually feel very comfortable in both. Um, but sometimes, yeah, I was like on, I was traveling for two and a half months in a row this spring and it was really great to have the condo come back to. And I worked really hard to be able to do that and then have also a space where I can run, run a business, which is, you know, one of the hats that I wear. And then I can rent like right now I'm renting it out while I'm in Lander and living in a van down by the river and I couldn't be happier.

[00:43:06] And at some point I'll get to go back to like, you know, my espresso machine and some of that kind of thing. But I feel like there's, there's kind of this false binary between like dirt bag and normie and I don't really fit in either of them fully, but I feel comfortable in both those spaces. And maybe two with like, since the macro change that happened with COVID and remote work and like the knowledge economy, there's more and more people that are occupying the middle

[00:43:32] or they're in both or they're not like, yeah, like, you know, you think back in like, I don't know, 2009, you know, it's like, oh, you live in your van, you're a climber that looks like this, like that is this channel. Or you're like, you know, working in, I don't know, corporate America in some way and like the conveyor belt of what constitutes Western success in your life looks like this. And there's like these two buckets. And now I feel like it's way less that way.

[00:44:00] And I'm just another manifestation of that with what I do where I'm kind of in the middle or I'm kind of in both. I'm comfortable in both. But right now I travel about half the year. I work and run project direct coaching and just kind of like constantly iterate the balance of that. You know, not that I get it right every single time. But yeah, I've had six years now to work on it. So I feel like I've iterated a lot and I like pretty, pretty happy with how that worked. But that's six years of my life.

[00:44:30] We didn't just like take a left hand turn off of the conveyor belt of normal success and hit that like straight out the gate. There was a lot of bumps and a lot of not doing it right in that. I mean, obviously your coaching is largely about climbing performance. What you, I would imagine, learned as a coach. Do you ever end up coaching people and what we're talking about?

[00:44:56] Like you ever end up like, hey, I want to do this. I want to, I do want to get off the track. And do you ever find yourself like more that kind of like climber therapy of like, this is how I did it or. Yeah. Because I mean, it is an interesting, you did six years of figuring this out. Yeah. And there is more than just like, I'm done and I'm moving in my Corolla. Right.

[00:45:22] But there is also like, I do need to do something or this is going to kill me. This job is going to kill me or something like that. That's literally how I felt. Like it felt that desperate. Right. I guess like toil or suffering or these kinds of things is all relative because like these maybe feel like champagne problems or whatever. But I don't think that it's a mystery why the way that the current society is set up in the Western world is driving people to make these rash decisions to get out.

[00:45:48] Like if there's 500 climbers here in Lander right now that probably have had somewhat of a similar experience. So like given how ubiquitous that is, there's something there that's like not working. But I do recognize that like it's a privilege to be able to feel like you are in the driver's seat of your life. So that being said, I think, yeah, over the years, you know, a lot of our coaching, it is all the training and the movement and the head game, but it's mentorship too.

[00:46:16] And actually getting to know you're like, they're not my clients and my athletes. They're not metrics or people. And we have a lot of conversations around that. And it's been, I have had people like inquire and I've done a handful of consults on like career change stuff. And then more recently, I've been doing some like business consulting too on like how to expand on business and scale business because that's kind of what I ended up doing with Project Direct.

[00:46:43] So we have four coaches, so it's like five of us and it's much more, it's very different than when I first started. Um, so I've done a bit of that. Yeah. And kind of helping people through that, um, or at least giving them my perspective, right? Like everybody's got their own set of circumstances, so it might not apply. It's not like copy and paste, but like what are common principles and themes? Like, what are you looking for in your job or career or in climbing? What is it about it that is drawing you in?

[00:47:12] And that changes over the years for people. I know for me, it has, um, right now, like, I'm super into doing bigger multi-pitches and traveling for climbing and having these more, like, these experiences where if I really just wanted to climb the hardest thing and hit my genetic potential in climbing, I wouldn't really need to leave Boulder, I don't think. But I was in Colombia in February and Turkey in March. And so, like, I'm seeking out some other things in my climbing right now.

[00:47:41] But yeah, I've had those conversations with people and it's cool to kind of ask people questions and then they kind of come to their own conclusions, you know? And just like, can be a bit of a, I don't know. I'm just like asking questions that might make you think about something differently or get off the conveyor belt or realize that you're on the conveyor belt of Western success, whatever that means anymore.

[00:48:07] The American dream is dead, so we might as well just stop pretending that it's not. But that opens us up to a whole bunch of questions. We've been living our whole lives thinking, you're smart, you go to school, you get a job, then you save, then you retire. It's not what it looks like anymore for so much of America. And then add the rebellious spirit of climbers and you're like, oh, we have a lot of questions to answer. Okay. So you just kind of hinted at like what I was thinking about as my next question is sort of the evolution of your climbing.

[00:48:38] You know, I can imagine those four years, you were very, probably very typical climber at the weekend, go to the gym, you train, try harder. You're like, you have your project, you got to go back to 10 sleep because you didn't get it. And, you know, the way we all live our lives, myself included now, you know, I get to climb a little bit during the week and stuff, but I'm largely the weekend warrior these days. So tell me about the evolution of your sort of motivations, your desires.

[00:49:07] You just hinted that it has recently changed. Yeah, for now. You mentioned this phrase that I like, the genetic potential. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's pretty like something we don't want to ever acknowledge, but there's a limit sometimes to your genetics, but which implies that you did have a long kind of era maybe of like, I want to try and find where, how hard I could possibly climb. Yeah.

[00:49:35] And I think like, it is sort of a normal evolution that sometimes people, like, there's a point at which they're like, yeah, this is a bit of a hamster wheel. So maybe there is something else in climbing for me. But anyway, I'll let you explain it. Yeah. Your kind of evolution from then to this revelation you just told me that you want to travel, go back to maybe traveling more and big multi-pitch and stuff. Yeah. And like, and I think about to what extent where you're like, oh, we're all going to like,

[00:50:04] you know, give a bird to like the like ladder climbing corporate America and be climbers and we're all like, all so free and enlightened in our bullshit. And then we're like, oh, all I want to do is like climb the next rung in the ladder, but in climbing, you know, you're like, I like, I want to send a 14A instead of a 13D. I want to corporatize my structured climbing thing. I want to corporatize gamify this thing that I am like, like, to what extent are we doing

[00:50:30] that I think is like a worthy thing to think about, especially for high achievers because they are, and I would call myself like a recovering high achiever, you know, like our brains are like set up to be like, and then the next thing and the next thing. And then like, how do I like achieve more or whatever? But it's, it's a mixture. It's like probably a little more nuanced than that. I just find that the, um, there's some reflection there. Um, but I think, yeah, like climbing harder and harder and figuring out training. And like, I do just enjoy trying hard.

[00:51:00] Like I really, really like to give it like my absolute all on a climb. And there's days that you walk away and you know, you gave it everything and that feels just as good as the Sunday and kind of recognizing that in myself was important. So there's that. And then, cause yeah, like for, for a while it was like moving up in grades, like moving up to climbing 13 plus, you know, and I still haven't climbed 14A and I got close on one last fall. All right. Well, this, this interview is over then. I thought you were. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. First of all, I apologize. Yeah.

[00:51:29] Get that microphone away. People think I climb, have climbed 14. Yeah. Yeah. I just let them keep thinking that. Anyway, keep going. Yeah. No, but for a while though, like, and maybe at some point I will come back to that, but I like bit into that on a project last fall and I got close a few times and had a really fun time with a partner working it. Um, and she sent, and then I was out there like TR soloing it, like one hanging it.

[00:51:56] And it just kind of got to be like a little, like, um, shmeagley, you know, where you're just like, I'm really close to this thing, but I'm not sending it. And now it's getting cold and I'm driving an hour and a half to this like TR solo. And like, it's sick. Cause the climb is sick, but like. I love Lord of the Rings references on my podcast. But like, at what point I'm like, 14 a, my precious, you know, like, you know, like what, what about climbing do I love?

[00:52:23] And I think climbing hard with somebody like collaborating on that and trying hard together is super rad. I think the problem solving is super rad. I think the, um, that grit is super rad. Um, and that all of that, but, um, but yeah, it was kind of like, cool. Like, I'm really psyched that I got to like one hang that a couple of times. I guess that means it's possible for me, but really being like, but I want to travel and I would love to, you know, have these other experiences and bring again, more of

[00:52:49] that connection element of climbing that travel, that experience, getting new perspectives means just as much. Um, and so if that's multi-pitch or like international travel for climbing. Yeah. Like clearly that's, if you look at my actions over the last eight months, like clearly that's more important to me than shmeagling around a 514 a until I like death send it. And then everybody, and then like, you know, finally validate my whole existence. That's a new climbing term. You're like, okay. Yeah. Shmeagling.

[00:53:18] I'm going to, I'm going to coin it. Yeah. It's like the, like neurotic. Oh yeah. No, it absolutely explains the situation you're talking about. Yeah. Especially. Yeah. When you're out there now by yourself on a, on a TR top rope. Yeah. Which is fine. It's just, that's kind of like a fun experience too. But like, um, overall I was like, yeah, I was like, no, fuck it. I'm going to Columbia. Right. Like, and then I'm going to go somewhere else. This is a little bit of a tangent, but do you, do you then find yourself somewhere and

[00:53:47] then pretend, cause I'm, this is my own reflection and see if you, you find this. And then you can't help, but like kind of do some sort of little mini project. And then, you know, you spend like a month in a place with like 30 different walls to go to, but you actually only went to one over and over again. Yeah. Because you did. Oh, I did hook into that 13 a that I thought I could probably do pretty quick. And yeah. Okay. Maybe I'll just go back there. And can we go back there?

[00:54:16] Does anyone want to go back to that one? You know? Uh, are you, are you good? I mix it up pretty good. Like, I think when I'm at a place for the first time, any new place, um, I'm just climbing volume. Like I'm not even touching five 13. I'm trying to climb all the five 12s and like, just get style. As I climb more, I realize how much style, like so literacy in the style influences your success in a zone. Um, and not literacy in a style.

[00:54:43] Like I've been there 10 years ago, but like I've been there recently climbing that style recently. If I want to climb something harder or whatever. So like when I'm that first time somewhere, um, like my first time in Columbia, which is kind of like in La Mojada, which is kind of like the new river gorge in style. Like I was just climbing a lot of volume. And then I went back and then I did like the hard thing, but they're like a hard thing for me. I did like a 13s either. And it felt like I knew the styles. It was cool.

[00:55:09] But yeah, then I went to Turkey and then I did a lot of onsiteing days. Then I also had a project. So I was mixing it up pretty good. Like there was days where we just go out to a new area and it turned out just like onsite, have fun, try hard. And then like, I also worked on a harder thing at the same time. So I don't know. That's how I go about it. Um, but I think I have a lot of, I live a privileged life, right? Where I have a lot of climbing experience and there's a lot of depth in there and I have a lot of time. Like I had a one way to get to Turkey.

[00:55:37] I didn't need to go back until like my beast, you know, until they kicked me out or I sent. So I was like, sure, I'll go onsite for a day. I don't give a fuck. But like, that's not the case for a lot of people. And I do recognize that. Um, so I think it's different, but I think the first time you're in a place, like if you've never been to Lander and climb pockets, you need depth of experience in the style before you're going to do well on something hard. And so getting sucked into something that's like a grade that you like the sound of before

[00:56:04] you have at least a little bit of understanding of how to climb the style is like kind of a, I don't know. It's not the best thing. Maybe it's easy to get sucked into. Let's try to stay away from that. But it's funny when I was in Turkey, my favorite day, I got to went to this area called should to be and you could hear the call to prayer from Antalia as you were climbing. And I got to onsite this super classic route there.

[00:56:31] And it was like the best memory of that whole trip, even though like I sent a harder thing, like getting to onsite with the call to prayer behind me. It was like, that is such a unique experience. Like I can't do that. And that's not happening in Boulder or like anywhere, you know, in, and I was like, this is what I like about this. And I'm like having this very full experience and then hanging out with everybody at the crag and getting to have that. And that means maybe more than right now anyway, maybe this will change in two months.

[00:56:58] But like right now that means more to me than like sending one grade harder. There's a lot of story there. There's a lot of like richness and fullness there, which I get to experience because I work hard and try hard and I train and I do these things to be better at climbing. Right. But like the ultimate experience that I got to have was a lot richer than like a grade, you know? And I think like people, this maybe isn't a super uncommon thing for people that have been climbing for over 15 years.

[00:57:27] But that or like doing first free ascents or bigger multi pitches, like there's so much more depth sometimes to those experiences that are cool. So yeah, I did want to actually carry a little bit out of this thread of performance climbing. I got asked recently to kind of, well, I got basically asked like how important is like performance and climbing to me. And I have this image of myself as this adventure climber. Yeah. Because that was my past. Sure. And I was, and I was like big root climber.

[00:57:57] And, you know, I even, when I started climbing at CSU, there was almost no such thing as sport climbing. Yeah. That all that stuff in the pooter was not there. Yeah. Gray rock was literally the only thing that had. What about East of Eden? Was that there? That's like that classic five, nine to gear route. I wonder if that was there. It might've been. Okay. Yeah. But anyhow. And, and so I always had sort of an, I was part of that like negative. Yeah. You're like sport climbing is neither. Yeah. Did you have a shirt? No. Do you want a shirt? Do you have one of those? What? No.

[00:58:27] Is it, is it a, do you have a vintage one? Do you get me? No, I, I wasn't quite that militant, but you know, I was just, yeah, let's go to the desert. Let's climb towers. Yeah. Let's like do cool shit like that. And now my, my life is sport climbing and I'm, and so long story to say that like, I wanted to say it wasn't important to me because, but it is. Yeah. But then I started thinking about it because I actually, I'm not that hung up on, on like

[00:58:56] pushing further than I've ever climbed before in terms of grades. I actually really enjoy a hard five, 12, even though I've climbed harder and can climb harder because, and so I started to think about that, like the performance thing leads into this idea of pushing yourself really hard and that for me in sport climbing, that's like the ultimate moment. Like when you, when you heard the call to prayer and you were also in the middle of doing this

[00:59:23] thing that was like a peak experience, like then it starts to all combine into something, you know? And the peak experience for me is, yeah, is trying as hard as you can. And that's why performance is important to me. Do you know what I mean? It's like a hundred percent. There's actually a, it, I think when, and as a coach, maybe you have some like insight into that is why I'm like trying to stupidly explain this like concept. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can do it better. I'm sure. Well, I think in terms of, and I get it.

[00:59:54] Cause it's like now we're in this place in climbing where there's maybe like people that are identifying more as adventure climbers or open climbers or tower climbers, trad climbing, sport climbing is neither like performance, you know, it, Are we back to that? Is that what you're saying? No, I'm saying like, but maybe we, if, if you're feeling like that's a part of your identity as a climber and then you have like performance and kind of like whatever, you know, like the Schmeagle around the grade and like there's a resistance to that, this natural resistance to that.

[01:00:21] Um, but I think that's oversimplifying it because the reality is, is if you push yourself in either training or sport climbing or you tried hard routes, you learn lessons in your movement or your route reading or your ability to try hard or your, what you learned and how to train to be where your baseline level is elevated, which then actually opens up bigger adventure climbs to you. Um, and I think that's maybe something that, okay. My personal opinion is that sometimes if we're stuck in the, I'm an adventure climber, I'm

[01:00:51] a trad climber, I don't care about grades almost like poo pooing that as like a culture that you're like a bit of a above. It's like a bit of this like Puritan, whatever. Like I would challenge you a letter in that group of be like, okay, or are you just sheltering yourself from the discomfort that would come from pushing it? Not that you have to do it all the time, but pushing it a little bit, trying to perform a little higher, bringing your training is not just about climbing the next grade. It might be about bringing your base level up, bringing your onsite level up.

[01:01:19] What's your onsite multi-pitch, you know, experience? What, where does that at? And if, if that's five 12, you simply have more adventures available to you. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's pretty practical in that sense. It's pretty practical. So like, even if you're an adventure climber and that's like your main like shtick, which is rad, that doesn't like mean that the realm of quote unquote performance climbing or quote or like training is irrelevant to you in that pursuit. Right. Yeah.

[01:01:45] I mean, I, I, I don't think we silo our climbing community as much as we did. Yeah. I think we don't as much anyway. It's strange. Sport climbing won. Yeah. It did kind of. Yeah, totally. I mean, it definitely did in my life because of, of, um, the commitment level is much lower. And hard trad cruxes are often sporty moves. Yeah. That's pretty common too, you know? So it's like these, these things are not so discreet. They bleed into each other.

[01:02:11] They, there's climbing up at the sweat lodge two days ago on this like classic called whiskey drunk. And I was like, it's sport root on limestone. I was foot jamming, finger locking, like that skill comes in here and those skills come in there and it's all, it's a lot more, um, intertwined maybe than just like, I'm just like a gender track climber. I'm just a performance sport climber. Like those worlds are not that. If you allow them to be there actually really benefit from hanging out with each other.

[01:02:37] So one of the pieces of media that you, that I noticed, and you're going to show it here at the climbers fest tonight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, is this film, uh, what is it? Diaz de la Gloria. Yeah. The days of glory. Yeah. Yeah. Um, which reminds me of days of thunder, which is a Tom Cruise movie. Have you ever seen it? I have not seen that. It's top gun in stock cars. But anyway, uh, Robert Duvall though. Sticks with a theme he does, you know?

[01:03:08] Um, anyway, days of glory and you made a film about it, but it also seems, I mean, obviously one of the reasons you made a film about is because it seems to like fit a lot of, um, these themes that are running through your climbing. It's a big, long multi-pitch route. It's far away from where you park or whatever. So you got to go to it. You know, you did it with a female partner and you did it with a local from El Salto,

[01:03:38] which is a place you spent a lot of time. Um, yeah. Just tell me a little bit about like how that adventure unfolded a little bit, like maybe fill in some gaps that are in the film. Yeah. And, and, you know, if I'm right about this, like it kind of ticked like a bunch of boxes for what your kind of needs are out of not just climbing, but the social part of climbing as well. Yeah, totally. So yeah, the, um, film is called Diaz De La Gloria. So the feature itself is La Gloria.

[01:04:08] So like naming the film Diaz, it's like kind of play on words, like glory days, but it's like our days up on this big feature called La Gloria, which is like 40 miles or 40 minutes driving, I should say, um, outside of El Salto, which is up until maybe the last few years, predominantly a single pitch sport climbing area in Mexico, not too far from Monterey that I spent a lot of time in and spent a lot of time single pitch climbing there in the winters too.

[01:04:34] And it's just an amazing place for a lot of reasons, but yeah, there's this bigger venue called La Gloria that was kind of close by. And I remember I was there in 2021, these seasons blur together a little bit. So if I'm off by a year, but I was there in 2021 or 2020. Um, and these guys were going up and disappearing for like five days and everybody else hanging out at Sport Crag. And I was like, what is like Zach? Like buddy Zach has exactly what are you doing? And he's got like a huge hat and like a handlebar mustache.

[01:05:04] And it's just like leaving for five days at a time. And he's like, tell me about this spot. I was like, that's so cool. And they were developing roots up on La Gloria. And so they developed one called risondo, which is a praying in Spanish because the kind of feature looks, they thought it kind of looked like two hands praying. So risondo, which is like a 14 pitch 12 minus ish. Um, so they developed that root and then they also developed another root, which they named good at us.

[01:05:29] And they sent the first one, the 12 minus and, um, and they were working on good at us. And then this crazy wildfire came through. There's a zine article. I don't want to like, um, incorrectly exactly sure Zach's story, but there's an article in the climbing zine where he tells a story and he does a really good job of telling it. But basically they had finished bolted guerreras, the harder root. And this huge wildfire came in and they had to run like for their lives off the mountain,

[01:05:57] like leave everything at camp, like get off the mountain. And if you ever go up and do that approach, running off that mountain is, that is like a fucked up run. It's like not chill, like running for your life down that approach. I don't even want to imagine it. So they had this really kind of harrowing experience up there. Um, but they bolted it and then they came back and they like, like a year later, I was again, I was in like rock camp and they brought down all their gear and it's just like melted

[01:06:22] grigrees and ascenders and just like this like graveyard of melted gear, you know, of that fire came through and made that approach even more kind of fucked up. And, um, they spent some more time on it, but I mean, that's a, that's a big experience to have up there. And they'd spent so much time developing and bolting it that eventually Zach opened that line up to whoever would want to do it. Um, and I was kind of like, I was kind of like around for all of this, but I wasn't like, you know, it was their thing.

[01:06:52] And I was like, oh, that's sick, but I wasn't like around for it or like really directly involved in it. They opened up the line to whoever wanted to do it. And I was like, oh, there's so many hard climbers in El Salto. That thing's going to get done like next week for sure. Like, like so many rad hard climbers in El Salto. So they're going to go, go, go do that line and do it free. Um, but it didn't really happen. And I think it's out there for like two, two and a half years. Um, and I think partially because of the unknown around did the fire mess, like fuck with the

[01:07:21] rock and mess up the climb partially around. We know that the fire made the approach worse. The approach is already like 3000 feet of elevation gain, like 1.2 miles and like unknowns around that. Um, and nobody knew what pitch 11 and 12 were in terms of difficulty because they weren't sent. Um, and so there's a lot of unknowns and it's such a different experience than like the typical El Salto experience up there. Lazy sport climbers. What? I mean, which don't get me wrong.

[01:07:49] Like I can, I can, I can enjoy that. No, you turn up in a place like El Salto to go have fun in single pitch climb. Yeah. And I mean, the approach looks heinous. It's a little, it's not, it's, it's, it's not single pitch sport climbing approach. We're not in that different, different arena in that way for sure. But it sat there for two and a half years. And I remember messaging Zach, like, cause I was thinking about what I was going to do that winter. I spent so much time in El Salto. I messaged Zach and I was like, yo, did somebody go in? Like that thing's been freed, right? Like for sure.

[01:08:17] And he's like, nah, dude, nobody's ponied up and done it. And I was like, shit, I'll try it. I bet I could like have an experience out there that was cool and held all the things that, you know, I kind of talked about wanting and climbing. And then reached out to my friend Mango who lives in El Salto and has also lived in El Salto for a good amount of time. She's owns and founded, started, owns the cafe there, Cafe Hanuman. And I was like, Mango, do you want to do something a little, a little different this year?

[01:08:46] You know, like go after this, this first free ascent. She was like, geez, that sounds like quite the thing, but yeah, I'm down. I was like sick. So it was a cool experience for us. It was like an unknown approach. You camp up there, you know, it's like you're up and out. It's Alpine, like Mexican Alpine. You're up there for five days at a time, whatever it is. And it's like very different than the single pitch sport climbing experience.

[01:09:11] And then there's the unknowns of like, you know, pitch 11 and 12, grade range of 12B to 13B, like they just weren't sent. And they worked on for a while, but nobody sent them. So we just like didn't know what that was going to be all about. Oh, there is a whole amount of like, we're going to project them, sleep up on the wall. Like, what is that going to look like? That was super interesting and super cool.

[01:09:35] And so this film that we're showing tonight at ICF is just kind of the story of that first free ascent. Yeah. I'm glad you explained like, because it wasn't in the film, like how this, this root fell into your lap. And as someone who's developed big, long, bolted roots myself, you know, the amount of work and. So much. And just industrial kind of doing, you know. Just labor. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, wow, that's quite a gem, you know, quite this sort of like.

[01:10:04] And then it sounds like, yeah, the, I was just, it made me very curious. I'm like, well, how is it that that thing didn't get done? And how is it that they. I know. Come up there clipping those bolts. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, it's a really like kind of unique set of circumstances that. Yeah. That allowed you two to be the first people up there to free that. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought the same, like I was shocked that it sat for so long. And yeah. And like so much, like so much credit and hats off to Zach for having the vision to like be up there and developing those roots.

[01:10:34] And yeah. And then, but I was, I was shocked that it sat for that long. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I made the lazy sport climbing comment, but it's really, again, about why people go down there. Yeah. And also, I mean, when you're in Mexico, we all have our opinions about how safe it is outside of the bubbles of these little places. And, you know, again, everybody has their opinion. And I think a lot of people go down there, whether it's Potrera, whether it's there or some of these other places.

[01:11:00] And it's like, yeah, you feel like, yeah, we should just stay within this kind of zone. And I don't know what it's like down there, but I mean, you know, I've climbed in, in on El Gigante down in Southern Chihuahua. And it's like, yeah, you don't go just marching around out looking for new walls around there. So, yeah. So I think most people probably don't go down there for that experience as part of the deal or prepared. Yeah. You know, they come down with their kit. Right. And they're like, oh, there's a multi-pitch climbing? Oh, well.

[01:11:29] It'll be that. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Since we've sent some more people who have been going up there, which is cool. I mean, the rock looks incredible. It's pretty cool. Yeah. It's like, I was kind of shocked too. Like, you know, you don't know what you're like, you like get alpine stuff, you know, you're like, what sort of Chausie shenanigans is going to happen. But like those, that was a head wall and those crutches are clean. Oh, yeah. They looked really good. Yeah. And that was sweet. And so, yeah, just expanding. Yeah.

[01:11:56] You just have to want to have a little bit more of a full-on adventure, you know, and go sleep up in under this cool, like, there's like a little bivy that's so cool that, you know, maybe 10 people have slept in now, you know, and all those people. We talk, you know, and like share the picture. Everybody knows that bivy, you know, and where you sleep in for either of those climbs. And it's just a special place up there. And really, like, it's not easy to get to.

[01:12:23] And that's the point, you know, that's like if you want that experience. And I think I definitely did. And I continue to enjoy either places that are not easy to get to because of the approach or not easy to get to because of travel logistics. But when you're in those little nooks and corners of the world, like, it's worthy, I think, to get off the beaten path in that way.

[01:12:44] One of the kind of things that you guys touch on several times in there, just in passing or mentioning, is, you know, this idea of women doing first ascents. That, well, I would like to ask you what you think. But, you know, for whatever reason, it's much more rare. And that can be a demographic thing or all these sorts of ideas. And it's actually been this, like, debate or whatever. It's not really a debate. But it comes up. And, you know, the discussion can become misogynistic.

[01:13:14] And it can be, you know, or rely on stereotypes of, like, work versus this versus that. But what is your opinion about, yeah, what the situation is? Because it's just a fact that not that very many areas get developed or roots get developed. Yeah. What's your opinion on that? To me, it has, it's just, like, a social conditioning thing a little bit.

[01:13:38] But, like, you know, the chances that, because I've bolted and, you know, bolted roots before. But, like, the fact of the matter is I probably use power tools less than if you took, like, me versus that average dude. Like, I've used power tools less. I grew up learning how to use tools less or something like that. So I do think there's, like, that cultural element of just, like, how to sink a wedge anchor, you know. It's, like, something that I, yeah, you know, and I feel very comfortable using a drill now.

[01:14:08] But, like, there was a more, there was, like, a bigger step from baseline, you know, averages to that. The step was bigger because of just, like, general conditioning. I also think that it's just, like, to step into that space, you're, as a woman or as a woman partnership, especially if you haven't done a big versus free, you know, like, a stacked resume about it, you know,

[01:14:36] is that you're subject then to whatever so-and-so thinks about your ability to do that. And, or throughout the years you picked up that kind of rhetoric and that sticks with you and kind of, like, yeah, kind of sticks in you in a way that you maybe don't fully recognize that it's happening. But after you hear, like, a hundred versions of maybe some similar rhetoric, you are also, like, unsure if you're able.

[01:15:04] And it's hard to maybe separate out sometimes. It's hard to objectively self-assess as a human being in general. Like, we're all pretty bad at it. Like, but to do well in an open environment, you have to be able to objectively self-assess. Where are my skills? Where, like, what do I know how to do? Where are some things that I'm not as good at in terms of, like, just technical rope skills? Where is my level?

[01:15:32] All of those questions you need to be aware of because you can get yourself into a situation where you're really fucked. And, like, you don't want to do that, right? But it becomes really, really hard as a woman team or for, and I'm going to speak just my experience, becomes hard for me to understand where am I actually because I have all of these opinions that have been, like, put on to me. Passive comments, like, little back end, like, little things that in the moment aren't that big of a deal,

[01:16:01] but they, like, sink in over years. And so to get to the point where you're willing to even put yourself into the situation to go for a free ascent, it kind of feels like, again, there's, like, a bigger hurdle to cross to get to the trailhead mentally to feel like there's a good enough chance that you're going to do it, that it's worth trying to do. And I think that was part of why you see it less. And I think because, or you could just go sport climbing, which is great, you know what I mean?

[01:16:30] But, like, to go after 13-pitch route up there with unknown pitch 11 and 12, like, I mean, or you just have to be a little crazy. But you also have to be able to be, like, there's a chance of success, you know? And wherever you're sourcing that confidence, it can get a little mercury if people are like, oh, that's a big boy climb. Right, yeah. And you're like, okay, what does that mean for me? I'm, like, the definition of, like, little bitch.

[01:16:58] Like, I'm, like, 5'3 blonde, you know what I mean? Like, so what does it mean that it's a big boy climb? And then, like, don't, like, some of those verbiages are things that it just makes it hard to see where you're actually at. And so then that can cause doubt or just hesitation around it. And I think that will continue to change. But it is true in, like, those bigger venue settings that is, like, the Rainbow Wall in Vegas, the Diamond in Colorado.

[01:17:26] Like, all of the bigger settings and bigger venues that I've typically been in, I've often been the only woman there at all. So you're naturally going to have some of those feelings. But you just have to be able to look at, like, where you're at, actually. And take a look at that, like, clear out all the weeds a little bit of that stuff and kind of be like, all right, I think there's enough of a chance that I'm going to go for it. And in that, that's, like, that's an adventure in itself.

[01:17:51] To get to, like, answer those questions for yourself is kind of a bummer that they're so there, though, that there's, like, this overarching nature of that. But, yeah, that was kind of my experience is, like, I was so nervous. I was like, I, like, what am I doing? You know what I mean? Like, so I was dealing with different levels of self-doubt that whole time. And I remember Mango and I did the other route, the, like, 14 pitch 12 minus. We did that one before we tried the harder one.

[01:18:20] Just, like, get our systems out. How do we want to do this? That kind of thing. And, yeah, we just linked one pitches. One, two, three, four. There was a mild, like, having to shit our pants issue right after the, like, crux pitch. The rest of it wrapped it all. You know, rigged 13, simo wraps, got down before dark, didn't even need our headlamps. And you're just like, wait, we just, like, aced this 14 pitch climb, like, in such nice style. Like, why are we so, where is this self-doubt coming from? Like, clearly we have the skills for this shit.

[01:18:49] You know what I mean? But, like, you almost have to, like, see it in practice. You need, like, proof of the concept. And that was, like, as you gather more proof of the concept, that helps. I don't know. I think it will change more as there's the model for it. But ultimately, there's a level of having to go into the unknown in order to do it. And I think that's kind of sick. Like, that's cool. I mean, the truth is this bolting whatever, a project like the one you guys did. It's a rare thing. Yeah.

[01:19:19] I don't care who, whether you're a woman or a man. There's not very, I mean, a super tiny percentage of climbers develop anything. And then you even, you filter out for a huge project like that because of logistics of it. And it's also, you give up your dreams of climbing for a long time because you're not climbing. Yeah. You're bolting. Yeah. And so if you were working on that 13C, you're not working on that 13C anymore or whatever.

[01:19:47] So you have to change your priorities and you have to give up a lot to go do these things. And I feel like, you know, all those things are true. And they were more true in the past because there were less women. And so there were less examples. Yeah. But now it's like you're kind of in this demographic problem of like, okay, so let's say we have a wave of women who are like, give me that drill. And we do see it coming on. I mean, it's not so easy anymore to find it all.

[01:20:16] I mean, shit has been bolted. Yeah. You know what I mean? I mean, like it's, I think it's, I mean, I know that, you know, I had opportunities, you know, of all these areas that are just completely, I mean, Canyon City, like Shelf Road and everything else. Like I could have been an opportunity to go and bolt the living shit out of that place. Yeah. But that opportunity, you got to go further. You got to go 40 minutes outside of El Salto and up a 3,000 foot approach to find something to bolt.

[01:20:46] And it's like, yeah. So the opportunity is there. But I mean, could you imagine yourself at some point doing something like that? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I would just, I think I would just say like the partner and the psych and the, and again, the time, you have to make the time and space. And you have to find the objective is I guess what I'm getting at. I have some things in mind. Okay, cool. Yeah.

[01:21:07] But like, but yeah, I think more of it's like creating a life that can support that kind of objective is an additional challenge, you know, is like, and yeah, there's the, but I don't, I don't think it's, oh, I think there's a lot, there's a lot, a lot of room actually to bolt and find really cool lines like that. And it's happening now in El Salto too, like the locals have been bolting a lot more bigger stuff, a lot bigger stuff, bigger stuff's going in all over that zone.

[01:21:37] But it's just a different experience, right? And like, like I was saying, like climbing for so long, new experiences have a lot of value, you know, after you've done so much of a certain experience. And we talked about that initial motivation and enjoyment of climbing is maybe like this is novel and intense and free and adventurous. And if you've been climbing for a long time, maybe some of that novelty of that same experience isn't there anymore.

[01:22:03] And so you're going out and you're seeking it by drilling, whether that's single pitch or, or even just, or establishing trad lines or mixed lines or multi-pitch lines or whatever, or traveling like you're that you're seeking that edge a little bit. Right. I think is a lot of what we do. And so if that's development sick and that's maybe worth not climbing one more 13 a is to develop, they have this whole other new experience.

[01:22:32] That's way more expansive. Yeah. Yeah. I know it's, I agree in it, but at that cusp of making that decision, it can be difficult. Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, to give up your season because you give up your, you'd give up a season. Yeah. You know, if it's far away and you're going to have to hump in loads and the whole thing, I mean, and you, not only did you give up season, but at the end of the season, you're going to be a worse climber than you probably were before when you started for the moment. So you get back. For a minute. Yeah. So it's, it's an interesting thing.

[01:23:01] And then I was thinking about like, let's say El Salto and specifically, you know, again, I think everyone that goes down there says it's like super safe, but traveling anywhere in the world, United States, anywhere as a woman or as two women is different. Yeah. And so to march out into the El Salto back country has its own, you know, there's like these own other things that go into that in terms of like, I'm, we're going to go up and be in this far away place.

[01:23:30] And maybe most likely nothing goes wrong, but we all know that. And every woman I know who's traveled knows that. Oh yeah. It's different. It just is. There's something about, and I, yeah, traveling solo as a female is like, you have to be willing to be like, yo, like you, like you have to be like, willing to be assertive. And if you like, or it will teach you how to be assertive. Cause otherwise, like, otherwise you're going to probably end up in some situations that aren't that awesome. And so there's like another additional hurdle right there.

[01:23:59] Maybe that's, that's existing. Anyway, I want you to do it. Yeah. And I'm just like, I'm agreeing that there's these, like, there's more hurdles than just like, oh, it's too much work. That's exactly. There's a lot of hurdles that are not like nothing to do with like my. Absolute willingness to do blue collar manual labor. Cause I actually love that shit. Right. Like get down and dirty, like not shower for five days, do a bunch of manual labor. Like to me, that is fun and easy.

[01:24:29] And like, there's some like, like a salt of the earth, like enjoyment out of getting dirty and staying dirty. And like, I don't know, like swearing on a wall. And like you, there's like everything's all of your inhibitions and all of the societal bullshit being stripped away is like incredibly refreshing. Even if you're drenched in sweat and dirt, it's like, yeah, that's great. But, uh, I do think it's changing. I don't think, I think any change is slow.

[01:24:59] Like we, it'd be nice to just snap our fingers and be like, oh, that's not ideal. It's changed right now, but it, it takes time. And, um, I think as more people do it and I guess with that, with the film, I, one of my things that I really hope that it, I hope that it, if there's women out there or anybody out there, that's like, not just women, honestly, anybody that's like, oh, I bet that's too hard for me. I bet I couldn't do that. Or, but I couldn't figure that out is like, I don't know.

[01:25:27] You don't know until you go try and like, maybe go try. Maybe you might surprise yourself or learn something that leads you to do it the next time. But you have to take that like step off the, off the known path a little bit more and be willing to do that. So yeah, it's like three people go and do something bigger because they see that film. That'd be like, cool. That's, that's sweet.

[01:25:56] All right, folks. Thanks for listening. And thanks to Carly for popping up to the pronghorn in Lander and sitting down for an interview, an old school face-to-face one, which are becoming quite boutique in the podcast world. Unless you got a lot of money to fly guests in and things like that. So if you want to talk to Carly more, she would love to hear from you at Project Direct Coaching.

[01:26:20] I get the distinct feeling it is a much more holistic approach than just straight up, get your fingers stronger type coaching. You can find her and her program at projectdirectcoaching.com. Of course, she's on all the socials under both Carly Rager and Project Direct Coaching. So you can find her there. And then also she's touring her film, Diaz de la Gloria. And if you catch this podcast in time, she's got a showing August 6th at the Rab store in Denver.

[01:26:49] So catch that or keep an eye out for that film coming to a festival near you. Okay, folks. It's Saturday morning. I'm heading to Rifle today for the first time in a little bit. It's going to be so hot. I think mostly we'll just lay in the river. If you have a stronger will than I do, I suppose you could be trying to project right now out here. But I ain't going to do it. I'm going to run a few laps, take a dip, hang out with the family, and then go to a barbecue with some friends. Perfect July day.

[01:27:17] Hopefully the climbing you're doing is cool and fresh wherever you are. And of course, you're checking your knots. We're trying to get a feel for how people spend their day at work.

[01:27:47] So if you would, would you walk us through a typical day for you? Yeah. Great. Well, I generally come in at least 15 minutes late. Uh, I use the side door. That way Lumberg can't see me. And, uh, after that I just sort of space out for about an hour. Tell him to stay. Wait, wait, wait. Space out? Yeah. I just stare at my desk. But it looks like I'm working.

[01:28:16] I do that for, uh, probably another hour after lunch, too. I'd say in a given week, I probably only do about 15 minutes of real, actual work.