Enormocast 326: Julia Cassou – Telling True Stories

[00:00:00] You are listening to the Enormocast. If you're a very serious climber, and I think you are, why on God's green earth are you red pointing your hardest sport routes in a harness designed for big walls or big routes or all day missions? Extra gear loops, hull loops and padding for that three-sig aid belay on the captain are not helping you sprint to a set of chains barely 100 feet off the ground.

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[00:00:54] This live little beauty strikes the perfect balance of support, comfort and durability, meeting the demands of the most committed sport climbers like you. Two gear loops and that's it. And if I catch you red pointing with anything clipped to the Lethos besides a dog draw, we're going to take those away too. So get serious about sending by adding a Lethos SL harness to your kit today.

[00:01:17] Go to Arc'teryx.com or your favorite no-nonsense gear shop and check out the lightest thing to come to sport climbing since that 7C you somehow managed to onsite after drinking table wine all night and calling those. The Lethos SL. Listen, where are you playing in town? Are you playing here? We're doing the Normo Dome, whatever it is. It's terrific. Oh yeah, big place outside of town. That's a big place. You sold it out. What's that 2006? We really should.

[00:01:49] Look, you better get up there before you panic so those pens are loose. You're very good. I have really enjoyed having them with you. We'll make it. I don't think so. But we shall continue with style. Good weather. Bad weather. Now or later, anytime. Today's show is brought to you by La Sportiva,

[00:02:19] Arc'teryx Equipment, and with support from Maxim Ropes. Maxim has been keeping the NormoCast off the deck since 2012. And don't forget our charter sponsor, Bonfire Coffee. Go to bonfirecoffee.com and enter Enormo at checkout for a discount on great coffee and to support the EnormoCast. And now back to the show. Hello and welcome to the EnormoCast. This is your host, Chris Kalous.

[00:02:49] It is July 5th, 2026, about 8.30 a.m. here in Colorado. And this is episode 326 of the EnormoCast. A conversation with photographer, filmmaker, climber, in that order, I think, Julia Cassou. So yeah, it's the morning of July 5th. If you haven't been paying attention in the rest of the country and the rest of the world,

[00:03:17] the four corner states here in the west are burning. Fires everywhere, which is a bit apocalyptic. We were going to go to Maple Canyon as a family for the weekend and meet up with some friends. But it just seemed too sketchy to drive past that many apocalyptic fires. And the neighbors go that far away from our home right now. Even though our house is not threatened, Carbondale is not threatened or anything.

[00:03:45] I just, I don't know, it just felt weird to be away. So we stuck around and I want to say I'm proud of Carbondale, Colorado. Home of the EnormoCast. Because it was extremely quiet last night. I kind of forgot it was the 4th of July. People acted surprisingly mature here and did not light off a shitload of fireworks that could potentially start a fire in any direction from this town. So well done, Carbondale, Colorado.

[00:04:12] I don't think the same can be said for the rest of Colorado or Arizona or New Mexico or Utah. But we did a good job here. Huzzah. Okay, a little business before we get to Julia. In the 11th hour, I have in fact decided to go to Lander to the International Climbing Festival this weekend. Talking to my friend Jordan Cannon, who's going to be up there with Mark Hudon, convinced me that it's worth it to go. I have no official duties this year.

[00:04:39] I'll just be going to see friends like Jordan, a bunch of other people that live in Lander. Just be mostly roaming around. So, many of you will hear this after the fact. But, if you see me in my straw hat, my sunglasses, my resting bitch face, don't be afraid. Come over and let's chat. And more officially, I will be at the Arcteryx Academy in Squamish. Coming up in August. August 20th to the 23rd or 21st to the 23rd.

[00:05:08] I don't know when it starts. Does it start on the Thursday or does it officially start Friday? Anyway, I will be up there on Friday evening and on Saturday evening during happy hour for the main event on the main stage. Ryan Devlin of the Struggle Podcast and I will be doing two happy hour podcasts. A little bit of banter, some drop-ins from athletes. I think Ryan and I have a fun rapport.

[00:05:34] So, if you're around in the park getting ready for the main events after all the clinics and all that sort of stuff, we're going to try to sneak one in, grab a drink, come down to the main stage and check out our happy hour podcast, Friday and Saturday night of the Arcteryx Academy in Squamish. There's a website somewhere to explain it all. You don't need my help. Hopefully we'll see you there. Okay, let's get to Julia Cassou. Julia is decidedly a behind-the-scenes woman.

[00:06:05] She is a photographer first. I think she's sort of a filmmaker second. And a climber third. She downplays what kind of climber she is a little bit, but she has to be a total badass to do what she does, which is follow some of the best climbers in the world around on some of the biggest expeditions. You might have seen her name from La Rubia with Bronwyn Hodgins that's been touring around the country. I haven't seen that yet. I haven't been in the right place at the right time.

[00:06:34] She has joined and shot big expeditions in Patagonia with Sean Villanuevo Driscoll, Pete Whittaker, she's done a couple big all-women's trips down there. She's crossed the ocean to go climbing a few times. This woman is like an engine that just runs on stoke. Her career is not in the spotlight, so it took a little cajoling, but I was super psyched to connect across the ocean via the internet with Julia in Chamonix.

[00:07:03] I think you guys are going to love this one. She's very talented, very French, very tough, and very cool. So let's get to it. A conversation with photographer Julia Casu. The year is 2016. We're still reckoning with the sudden mainstream interest in TCKJ and the Dawn Wall. Climbing had been confirmed for the Olympics, and the whining about speed climbing was just getting ramped up.

[00:07:34] Though his magnum opus, Silence remained in the future, Andra is tearing up 515, and J-Star is too, just a little more quietly, as is his way. Tick Tock innocently appears in September, and we remain blithely unaware of what a social media climbing influencer is.

[00:07:56] But, perhaps the most groundbreaking climbing leap in 2016, at least according to this commercial, the introduction of the Sportiva Squama. So futuristic, it remains cutting edge 10 years on. No one thought a high-performing shoe could handle all terrain and feel this good doing it. Yet there it was, in our hands, on our feet, and nestled in our soles like a little baby bird quietly cooing. Squama! Squama!

[00:08:24] And to mark this monumental moment in climbing history, Sportiva has introduced a celebratory color scheme for the 2026 Squama, while retaining its essential nature as the baddest shoe in the land. So go back to the future and head over to sportivana.com or your favorite local shop, and check out any permutation of the legendary Squama. And then ask yourself one thing. What would you do for the scent? All right, you ready? Yeah. More or less? Yeah.

[00:08:53] Yeah? Yeah. I'm a little stressed, you know. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Let's kind of finally mention, Bron. I remember being in a base camp in Pakistan and listening to the Enormocast of Bron and Jacob, the one with the kayak in Baffin Island. And it got me so inspired. I was so psyched. Did you know her at that time? No. Oh, okay. Yeah, I didn't get her back down.

[00:09:24] It was just fine. Oh, cool. Yeah. The Enorma cast making connections. Yeah, it's their history with the podcast is kind of interesting because I interviewed them. I mean, their first one was together. They were traveling in the States. And at that time, like Bron was, you know, kind of positioned as in the couple as like the, you know, sort of the newbie, right?

[00:09:48] Because she, you know, Jacob had taught her how to climb and they'd met at some party in the UK. And it's just fascinating, like the amount of, I don't know, just traction and movement that she's had in her climbing career since then is fascinating, you know? Yeah. And she was one of the first people where I was like, you know what, you have to come back and do another Enorma cast, which I've been doing a bunch of lately. But because I was like, you're a completely different climber and probably different person.

[00:10:18] And so, yeah, it's been really fun to see her evolution, you know, since she kind of appeared on the scene. Yeah. So tell me about the first time you worked with her then as a photographer. So she said we met before, but no one really remembers. We were in New Year's Eve party in El Salto in Mexico.

[00:10:40] When I was doing this sailing trip with Sepp Bert, Solinkensel and all like the Belgium Swiss French team. And we ended up in El Salto just for like, yeah, New Year's Eve. And it was maybe some space cookie involved and no one was really talking. Standing awkwardly around the fire. And I think Bronwyn was there.

[00:11:05] She said she was there, but I don't remember that because I've been looking up to her for like a while before we met, because I was like, man, I love big wall climbing. I want to do more big wall climbing projects and expedition. And she was one of the few females doing this thing, you know, and like going really hardcore. Like, yeah, like the strip in the bathroom they did, like in kayaks.

[00:11:31] And but then I met her like officially for the first time when I went down to Spain to film her. Like straight away, I met her and we did a three hour long interview the day after. And then we lived together for two months. Oh, wow. Well, how did that come about though? Um, so I met Lindsay Hamm in Pakistan at the base camp in the Shah Rakhsa Valley at the K7.

[00:12:00] I was with a French team. Yeah, I was attempting the K7 and, and there was this female team with, uh, with Lindsay Hamm. And I actually wake up, wake you up in the morning. And I've been like, we went up the mountain, acclimatizing heavy people style in high altitude, which is not a good way to acclimatize. And I had like, um, teeth reaction, like gum infection, like, and got up in the morning. I'm just like, like, I can't see straight.

[00:12:27] I'm like really sick, dehydrated, like not doing great. And I like see this chick up there. There's just like lifting rocks, big rocks. I'm like, wait, wait, I'm in Pakistan. I wear like a short sleeves shirt. You know, I'm a porn on base camp and like, there is no female out there. And in my team were two female, but that was all. And I see this girl just like lifting rocks. I'm like, she looks cool.

[00:12:58] And so I met her. And then, yeah, she was coming to Spain the next winter. And back then she was with Rab and Bronwyn too. And they were needing a filmer and she was like, you should come. And we like just started this project with Bronwyn. Just super casualty actually. That's the awesome thing about climbing is that sort of networking and sort of following your nose.

[00:13:21] And, and, um, you know, in terms of your professional career, finding work, but just also finding work that's, that's fulfilling. Um, but let me ask you this. So we'll go back kind of the basics. What came first for you climbing or photography? Photography. I grew up in a place. There is no climbing, like climbing do not exist at all. Um, and there is no culture about it. Uh, nobody knows what climbing is.

[00:13:49] We make, uh, you know, the duck patty, the foie gras. Oh yeah. We make one from, we just eat and play. Everyone. Everyone's involved. Yeah. Yeah. That's like very countryside. Um, I don't know if I need to say it. It's kind of a hard lounge here. I'm from a town named condom.

[00:14:12] Um, and yeah, a lot of people just come to steal the sign and there is no climbing over there. They come and steal the sign. Yeah. That was like a big issue. That's great. Yeah. Um, yeah, I just started taking photos. Uh, I first borrowed my dad's camera and then I took my kids saving and bought one.

[00:14:41] Um, and then I shot on film, um, for many years. Um, in the high school I was, there was this studio I could use. So I was like spending all my time in the dark room, developing my photo, experimenting stuff. And I was just like really drawn into photography and art. And yeah, I guess I discovered climbing later on like at university. My dad is like used to climb a little bit when we were young.

[00:15:11] So like, he would like take us maybe once a year or something. But I don't remember. I just knew it existed. And, um, but you know, I was like, he's like climbing 6a, which is, I don't know, 5a to 5a to 5a9. I was like, this is probably the strongest climber in the world. And yeah. Um, yeah. I had like maybe a- I missed it. My dad. Oh, your dad. Okay, cool. Yeah.

[00:15:40] So like I knew climbing existed. I knew it was a thing, but I was not really climbing and it felt like something that was not, there's no climbing gym in this old like part of France at all. Like you have to drive. Yeah. An hour and a half, two hours to get to the first gym. So yeah. Then I discovered climbing when I was 18 or 19, something like that at university. So let's go back to the photography.

[00:16:09] You just said you were shooting on film. Um, you're not very old. And so that, you know, that must've been sort of an artistic choice or what, what was the, the purpose of the film or where you actually, did you actually start like pre-digital? So when I was 10, it was 20 years ago. Okay. So 2005, uh, I think there was like numeric camera, like, you know, reflex and stuff like that.

[00:16:38] But it was probably like really, really expensive. Um, and we just, we had like a tiny, like numeric camera for the holidays, but I just didn't like it. I liked taking photos, the camera of my life. And then I bought the exact same one and I still have it. I still shoot with it sometimes. And, and I think that the, the hook was really like developing my photos in the darkroom. Okay.

[00:17:04] That was like something, it's just magic. You know, like I was like 15, I think, and just like obsessed with it. I just spend all my time like experimenting stuff. And I was like really into art. I was in a high school specialized in art. And so all of a sudden you could like play in your photo, like a sculpture and have like all control of what you're doing and experimenting stuff.

[00:17:33] And just like doing photography with your hands too. Um, like the other art medium, like sculpture, like painting and stuff. So, and I was like very reluctant to buy a numeric camera. And I think I shot actually found the other day, my first ever photo shot on a numeric camera. That was like maybe 21 or 22. And then like more recently, I'm like trying to switch to all the mirrorless thing.

[00:18:03] And it's really hard for me. And I think it's because I've shot for so long on film that I'm like really struggling with it. That's interesting. I mean, it's, I mean, when you said I found the first picture or first photo I shot on, on, on that cameras, I remember that feeling too, because I started like way back in the film age

[00:18:32] and I'm not a photographer, but I was, you know, taking pictures of, of the climbing that we were doing. And, you know, all on slide film at that point. And, uh, and I remember the, like, it took years of using a digital camera before I was not just like, you know, shooting one shot of the thing, like you did with film or you shot three, like, you know, for me and not being a professional, you know, I would bracket, you know, I'd bracket my settings. So I would get like, take three pictures.

[00:19:00] So that at least one of them might be the exposure that I wanted and things like that, you know, and you had to like move into this whole thing of like, Oh, I could shoot a 500 if I want, you know, like shooting 500 pictures on a slide camera cost you, you know, it was like hundreds of dollars to develop it. So, um, but you know what I'm talking about? Like you were still just like one, two, and I'm good. Like, which is an interesting skill to have, you know? Yeah. Yeah. When I talk with other photographers and they're like, how much did you shot today?

[00:19:29] I'm like, like 150. Like what? This winter I was using a mirrorless camera for the first time on an expedition. And by the end of the trip, I'm like, I don't understand. I have so many photos. This is fucked. And why? And then it took me two months to realize that like clicking once on the bottom would like take four photos.

[00:19:54] So I had like fourth time when you need to have, but it's just like a different approach to, I think you need to be more precise and, you know, take your time and like slow down your pace and not be just your attitude is also different. I think if you like go like, okay, this is the moment right now I'm selecting. And, you know, I think, I think it really shaped my eye. Like I was shooting on a 50 millimeter lens.

[00:20:23] Is this like film camera? And then when I got my first new ray camera, I was like shooting only with a 50 millimeter lens for many years. And, and this first photo I found back the other day is like, looks like definitely looks like a film photo. It's super brainy, like black and white, and I'm losing it now. So you're back in, in this art oriented high school. You're doing your film in the dark room.

[00:20:53] Did you imagine yourself, you know, following sort of a career path of that kind of photography? Yeah. I wanted to be a photographer. I wouldn't say I see a career in it because when you're young and, you know, I was not like seeing this as a career at all, but I wanted to study photography at least. And also because this high school is specialized in art prepares you for that.

[00:21:19] Yeah. It was like one of the, like I was major in art, like something like that. And yeah, so I want, I really wanted to study photography, but then university is free in France, but like not really, you know, like art school and photography school are private. So I went to public university. So I went to public university and study art, which is great. You're an artist. You know?

[00:21:51] Yeah. And I was like, wow. There was no really any career path and I found the university pretty mediocre. So, and I started climbing, you know, so I just dropped off. Nice.

[00:22:09] So tell me about bringing your camera climbing, you know, when, when that started happening right off and, and, um, that transition into, into shooting action and, and characters and climbing and, you know, transitioning over to that kind of subject matter to us climbers. It seems obvious, but it may not have to an art student of how to, how to capture that.

[00:22:31] I think I was drawn from the very beginning, more like in documentary style, just like observing what's around me and take photos of it more than creating and like posing and more like the studio work was never something I was attracted to. Yeah. So like, you know, just wander in the streets and, and take photos.

[00:22:55] And so it's just like natural, like when you're this kind of approach or photography, I think to start recording. Yeah. I started this new sport and it's like fascinating. You know, when you started climbing, it's so fascinating. You see this climbers, like first time I came into a climbing gym, I saw someone climbing through a tiny roof and I was like, oh my God. He's a superhero. How did they do this? You know?

[00:23:20] And so you're like, naturally started taking photos of it and yeah, like drag up lines and be a full shit show. And I was just like, yeah, fascinated by the movement and the human behind it more than the athletic performance. How like people are so like different when you shoot someone from a line than from the ground, like you have access to like something that is very unique.

[00:23:49] And the first time I hang on the line, I was like, like this person that I'm shooting, like is giving me access to all of his person. And because I think when you climb or like when you're trying something, whether it's like a 5'9 or like 5'15, you know, it's, it's, if you're trying hard something, you don't lie.

[00:24:13] You're just so vulnerable and you show like who you truly are, you know, like, and I think you can like understand someone's personality through the way they climb, like so much. And that's like this intimacy that like fascinated me and be able to like have access to that. And I'm so like so grateful whenever a climber let me take photos of them because it's, yeah, it's just very intimate.

[00:24:41] Shooting posed photos is probably good money and, and, and a type of photography that everybody needs to do to make a career in it. But it sounds like maybe you are more interested in kind of the real life photography of what's actually happening in the moment. Yeah. I love the thunder in the background. If anybody's listening, that's what that is. I wish we had it here. Yeah. Yeah. We've been waiting for it here too. It's been pretty, really hot in France, like abnormally hot.

[00:25:10] And yeah, here in Chamonix, it's crazy. It's going to be good. But yeah, I based my career out of, yeah, expedition and documentary style.

[00:25:23] And I like to think that I'm like, not a creative person, actually, because I think my like art depends so much on the people I'm surrounded by. Like, like I get inspired by the climbers, by their approach, their spirit. And this like makes me do good photography.

[00:25:51] And so I've been really struggling doing like more commercial food. I'm trying to change that because, yeah, I'm like 30 and I'm like, man, it's good to like make a living out of this thing at some point. You know? But it like really stresses me. I'm like, oh, I have to like create something. And then if you work with like a creative team and like everybody has idea and the model are like psyched to like try stuff, then it's like super fun.

[00:26:21] And I'm like trying to go more and more into that. But yeah, whenever like I get like, yeah, project shoots or whatever, like Petzl would give me the project shoot where it's like more like the documentary style project shoot they want. So they know they're like, yeah, Julia is good at this. That's her niche. Yeah, well, that's fine. I mean, being a specialist and someone that they know that that will do that part of it.

[00:26:50] But because there's plenty of photographers on the other side that couldn't do what you do. But but I realized, too, yeah, broadening your your your bases is, you know, better economics. But well, let me ask you this. So you you I mean, you've gone on these like absolutely wild, super hardcore expeditions, which we'll get into in a minute.

[00:27:11] But, you know, and you're we're talking about you as a photographer, but there has to be this base of you as a climber to be operating in these places that you do, whether it's Patagonia, you know, Greenland, you know, up on the side of El Cap. Like what what does your climbing look like or what? Who are you as a climber? I don't know. It's hard to keep like keep climbing with all of that.

[00:27:36] I'm trying to put more focus on that the last year, I would say, just being like, OK, if I want to be better in the mountains and stronger, like I must be a stronger climber. But I think I'm fine with suffering. That's the most important part. And I'm just like overstoked. Yeah. But yeah, I love climbing. I just try to climb as much as I can.

[00:28:02] And it's just hard to find the time and the energy because, yeah, those expeditions, they like just makes me so tired. It takes a month to recover. And then I have like to edit some photos and like spend time on the computer and out of that. So like that's hard to train and find time for that. But I'm trying to do it more. But I used to work as a rock guide to like when I dropped off university.

[00:28:32] I like I think it was like after one year I started climbing, I was like, I'm going to go for the rock guide certification, which is like in France, like one to four year at school. Like it's pretty committing. And I did that. And then I worked as a guide and like training athletes, eventually studied sports science too. To be a trainer.

[00:28:57] And I was like training youth that would do the World Cups and stuff like that. So it's super interesting. But I had like no time to climb when I was doing this. So now I have like more time to climb. But I'm a sport climber. I'm, you know, pure Frenchy, limestone sport climber.

[00:29:19] Which is kind of fun because when I'm in the U.S., I'm like, yeah, like a very non-adventurous slash like, yeah, sport climber. Just like for like, oh, yeah, you're a sport climber, you know, like. And then when I'm in France or in Europe, I'm more, I'm like a very adventurous sport climber.

[00:29:41] Where we feel like, we just really have this break in the culture here where like, track climber and people that climb on gear are, on multiple pitches are more like alpinists. So like people that go to the mountains and all of that. And then you have the sport climber that is like, maybe look like more like the bouldering culture in the U.S. It's like very, like, it's very split and different. I'm just, you know, I don't know. I don't know what I like to do. Right. Yeah, but it's interesting that you call yourself a sport climber.

[00:30:10] And maybe my question misdirected you in terms of like how hard you climb or that sort of thing. But just being, again, like you have the skills to operate on these big walls, whether or not you're, you're pushing the actual rock climbing. And to me, I mean, that's, that's climbing. Like what you're doing, living on a wall is climbing, whether or not you're making moves or, or what you're doing, because there's so much that goes into it.

[00:30:36] And, you know, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you originally had it in my head was something that I think it was Sean Villanuevo Driscoll that said it, or it might've been. And yeah, I think he said it, but he was talking about how you got recruited onto the, the mirror wall trip on the boat. And you, and he said that, yeah, you convinced him because you said you were like small and wouldn't take up very much space on the boat or something like that.

[00:31:03] And, but he was, you know, super psyched that, that you were able to go. And it was a, it was something to do with that. The, the Japanese climber passed away and the photographer, you sort of replaced them at the last minute. But I don't know, for some reason, the way he described it, I just imagined, yeah, this, this small person, this young, youngish woman, this was a few years ago, just kind of like making the case to get on this boat and go to Greenland.

[00:31:31] And like, you know, when did you realize like that kind of expedition and was really a draw for you? Because it's, that wasn't the first one and it wasn't the last one either, but it, it's sort of, to me exemplified, you know, you sort of, I, I have to go on this expedition and I'll do what it takes. You guys, let me go. Yeah. The first climbing movie I watched was vertical sailing. It's like before the auto sea light.

[00:32:00] I don't know if you watched that film. So I'm like a student and one of the person in our friend group has a car. Only one person has a car. So we like all jump in the car and we're going to drive to go to Marguliffe for like five or six days because from what I was studying, which is Toulouse. So France is like five or six hours away. And so it was like big trip. And we're waiting for this friend in the, in the house.

[00:32:29] And this guy goes like, Hey guys, have you watched this movie? It's pretty sick. Like, and he like starts and we watched like five, first like 10 minutes. And I remember that like, they like all throw up overboard and it like the image freeze, you know, but the name of the climber, Olivier Fabrice, Nico Fabrice. And then, and I was like, and then we watched the climbing and I was like, Oh my God, this is so fucking rad.

[00:32:57] Like I want to shoot that thing. I'm not like, I want to climb this. I'm like, I want to go on those adventures and shoot this kind of stuff. And that's always been something I wanted to do. Like one of my first beaming the mountains, it was like, I was just underprepared going with my brother and one of her very good friends.

[00:33:18] And I had like, like a synthetic summer sleeping bag, you know, like, and we go like 1st of January on the north face of the highest point in the Pyrenees. And like, I'm sleeping on the side of the mountain, like freezing to death by like minus 15 or something and like spin rip got falling on my face. And I was like, took this amazing photo of my friend in the morning was like his face all swollen by the cold and like looks super dramatic.

[00:33:47] And we eventually turned around and ate tapas in Spain. But, you know, like those kind of things were like, I've always been psyched. And I think I just, I'm, I just like suffering. I think I just like, I like those things. And then, yeah, for like the trip to the mural, I feel I've been like on the waiting list with Nico and Trent for a while.

[00:34:14] And the first time they went to the mural, I was like talking with Nico. I was like, come on, like, do you guys have to take me? And he was like, yeah, no, we're going with Ben because, you know, it's kind of the anniversary of the Dodos delight. And I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. But still, like next time and next time. And they called me actually when they did this trip, which ended up being the Dodos, the series on the Railrock.

[00:34:41] And like same day, like hold me to go there. And then it was just before going on that Atlantic crossing with Seth Bert. So I like couldn't really go. And yeah, and it was just like always like, ah. And so I had climbed before with Sean and Pete in Patagonia and we were working pretty well as a team. Nothing secretly Sean was testing me to for like bigger stuff.

[00:35:12] He was fully testing me. I could say now, like he was just being sneaky. So, yeah, I just, yeah, that was like. When you say Sean was testing you, you know, obviously these guys are the, I mean, they're as experienced in expedition rock climbing anyway. And this sailing thing and just going to the faraway places as anyone in the world.

[00:35:41] And so, you know, they have the experience to know that they can't just go live with anybody on these walls for days and days and months and months. So what do you think, you know, what do you think he was looking for that you actually, you know, passed the test or met the criteria? I think like having a good laugh is important for them.

[00:36:04] You know, like if you don't have fun, like, yeah, you know, if you don't have fun with your foreigners, it's going to be like, you know, boring. So that was the thing. And I didn't knew Sean that much when I went to Patagonia to shoot with him. And we just give each other so much shit all the time. And that's pretty awesome.

[00:36:28] And I think the second thing was like, he like fully sent back me, like fully sent back me and like fucked up conditions on the wall. And I was just, I think I was just show, I would show nothing. I would just be psyched and always be super happy to be out there because I was, it was really scary and committing what we did, but I was just so grateful and happy to be out there.

[00:36:52] And so at the end of the first weather window, he just goes and like, you don't complain for French. That's cool. And I think that's like the best confusion can give you. He's like, you don't complain. Are you, are French people known as, are they whiny? No, he's just like, you know, Belgium and French are always at war. They're just jazz. Oh, I gotcha. Yeah.

[00:37:22] Yeah. So I think that was maybe the two things. Just like, I think, yeah, the main part is like being really psyched and being a really hard worker is important for, yeah, going on those things. Like, and yeah, be committed to, to the climb, like, I guess to like exporter and mental aspect of it, maybe a little bit.

[00:37:46] What do you, like, what kind of, I mean, this is a little bit of a complicated question, but, you know, you go on these expeditions, you're, you're part of the team, but you're not really part of the, like the climbing part of it. You're a documentarian. And so you probably have some, and maybe that's the question I'm asking. If you have some part in your mind of how you operate to kind of be in the mix, but stay out of it.

[00:38:13] Um, you know, because you have to, you know, you're there and everything else. And, and, but in some ways you're this observer, you know, do you have a philosophy around that or a way you kind of have a mindset when, you know, it, you know, it's like. Like, if things are going wrong, it's like, you also can't add to the, like, oh shit, we're in trouble. You have to be like, okay, I'm just going to pull my camera out.

[00:38:36] And actually it's funny because in the, the, the Torrey central climb the South American route, um, with the women's team, you know, that you had some bad weather. Um, and you got these incredible shots out of that. And I was like, God, I wonder if she was just like watching the bad weather come in going like, yes, this is going to be amazing. I'm going to get some, I'm going to get some good shit out of this. Bring it on. But yeah, do you, do you know what I'm saying?

[00:39:03] Like, do you, do you have, are you just fully in the team and it happens the way it happens? Or do you sort of like, oh, I'm going to keep my mouth shut right now and just, just make sure I'm, I'm letting them, my subjects do what they want to do. And I'm not going to, you know, pipe up right at this moment. First of all, I think I try from the very beginning, I started taking photos. I tried not to be a weight for the climbers.

[00:39:28] So for that, I was like, I need to be so skilled on the wall and be so efficient that like, I'm not adding weight. Because also you hear, you hear a lot of climbers just complaining about the photographers. Oh yeah, I did this shoot for this brand and they had like this lame person that like, do you know how to do more? And I had to teach them and like stuff like that. It was like, I don't want to be this person. And I think like, this is me doing it and feeling stressed about it.

[00:39:56] I think because I was a female, I am a female. Still are. In this like very male dominated field. I was like, I need to prove to everyone. I'm like, I can do this. And either the climbers, because most of the expedition I'm doing are with men.

[00:40:19] And like, yeah, going on this trip with Shan, Pete and Shan is like breaking a glass ceiling a little bit of like, they've been doing, Shan had been doing expedition for more than 20 years. And they've been once with a woman on an expedition. And so that was like, I need to be like really, really good and skilled. And then they're not going to like, no one's going to complain.

[00:40:48] I just want to hear people say like, she's a fast jogger. So, you know, like, and also like be really skilled on the world and you can help the team and not be a weight. But then it's also like they, like on the more like human aspect of it, I think it depends of every team. But when you, yeah, work with Shan and Pete, there have been so many expeditions before and they've worked with so many photographers and they know that like they're bringing a photographer.

[00:41:15] And this person is going to pull out the camera all the time and they're like fully fine with it. And they want you to do this, you know, like it's always this hard thing of being so intrusive with a camera. And like, yeah, when shit goes south, they're going to be like, damn, a little help would be good. But at the same time, they know that we need that if we want to make a film or something. And you have this like two hat kind of thing going on.

[00:41:44] And so, yeah. And yeah, with the girls on the Torres del Paine, I was psyched. That was bad, you know, that was a really, really bad storm. But at the same time, like I think like this condition, you know, like wind started to blow and you're like on the line and like fog is coming. And I don't want to sound like a psycho, but like I'm like, this is getting me so inspired.

[00:42:13] Actually, like this is. I knew it. See, I knew it. But, you know, like all those elements and this is what you, you know, you go, you're looking for if you go to Patagonia. Like, and then those girls like, Amelie, don't move. You look so cool right here. And I took some photos.

[00:42:36] But I tried to be fast, not being like, oh, like I'm going to take photos of like 30 minutes. We, like when I took those photos of Caro hauling the bags, Amelie and I have been hauling the whole day and she hauled the last speech. So it's kind of also like, not like, oh, I've been doing nothing the whole day and just like taking photos, you know. No, I was hauling.

[00:43:01] I was like in the middle of the storm pretty badly with Amelie where bags were stuck. And then we get to the last speech. And I think I was also like psyched to have those photos, you know, like also have like a souvenir of the snarry moment. And yeah, I took photos for a little bit and then like pull off the camera and helped. And we set up the correlation, two of us and all of that. It's violence to find. Sometimes you can get it like, Julia, it's not the moment.

[00:43:33] But then in your back of your head, you're like, no, that means it's exactly the moment. Exactly. And then, you know, it's like a type two. The fact that you're telling me it's not the moment means I want a picture of you right now. Yeah. It's like the type two thing. They're like, first of like, damn, like she should help. And then they're like, this is actually a cool photo. Yeah, right. I'm glad to have it. And you need to see like beyond the type one.

[00:43:58] Let's talk about the Dawn Wall, the ocean expedition. I mean, you'll have to kind of like fill me in on the timeline because it spanned a couple years on the project of Seb Burt freeing the Dawn Wall. And that must have had all the things, right? All the types.

[00:44:18] If you want to keep using that metaphor of one, two and three fun, you know, something that long that lasted and went through so many elements had the whole ride. And it's interesting that, you know, when something like that comes together, the first thing I think is like, it's amazing. All these people had the time to do this. And I think you making yourself available is actually also one of your powers.

[00:44:45] And, you know, you mentioned being 30 and maybe wanting to make some money now. Like that's totally normal. But it sounds like you had a, you know, several years there where you were a yes person and were able to drop whatever you're doing. The mirror wall thing, it sounds like it was like a week or two ahead of time that they asked you or, you know, that who can just do that? And you were someone that can do that. So tell us about that trip. It lasted a long time. It was multifaceted.

[00:45:14] It was on a boat and cross country and Yosemite and on a big wall and had to come back. And I don't know if you can encapsulate all that. It all started during COVID times. We're like locked down in Saint-Léger-du-Ventoux, which is like a sport climbing crag in France where there's Eagle Four. And, yeah, there's this Belgium team and we're all like in our van, you know, like around campfire. Like the lockdown was pretty bad in France.

[00:45:44] You were not allowed to climb unless you're a professional. So like rock guide that needs to train or professional athlete or whatever. And so we're all out there around the campfire. And we have an expression in French. French is Aperotopo, which is like after climbing, you're having a covered beers and like you're talking about what you're going to do the day after. Like which multiple pitch you're going to climb and stuff like that. And usually like you had a few drinks.

[00:46:11] So you're like, I'm going to climb this hard thing, you know, and it's like ego thing going on. And so we're having a couple of beers and Seb is just like, well, I really want to go back to Yosemite. It's like my favorite place on earth and it's like so amazing. And I just don't want to take the plane anymore. And there is this other Belgian guy, Baptiste, that goes and say, wow, like you should sail there, Seb. He's like, actually, it's a good idea.

[00:46:40] And he was just like randomly like, oh, who's psyched? I'm like, I'm psyched. And the whole team was there and like all were like, all climbers just like raiding around. Like actually that sounds cool. And then because Seb is so driven, you know, like you have so many ideas you throw out in the area and like never going to end up being anything.

[00:47:01] But with Seb, he had like the willpower to like be, I guess, a good expedition leader and be really organized. And then we all signed up on that and we all worked so hard for like 10 months to make this trip happen. In COVID time, all the borders are like shut down. There is nothing happening. We're just like, we're going to sail across the Atlantic Ocean, go to America. And yeah.

[00:47:31] And so we did. Eventually we did. And none of us had any sailing experience. That's also something very important to mention. And we found two sailors that knew someone that could rent us a sailboat for really cheap, like a friend, family friend of the captain. And so those captains sign up to embark with six other climbers that want to build the climbing wall on the sailboat.

[00:47:59] And they had never sailed before to be like, yeah, sure. We're going to cross the Atlantic Ocean, guys. We're going to take you to the other side. And I don't know, those people are crazy. But we just did it. And yeah, one of the guys, he's a mountain guide. And he was on the boat the day before the party. He's like really stressed. And he's like, actually, don't we know how to swim, guys? Oh, man.

[00:48:29] And it's like, I know how to swim, but I'm a bad swimmer. And I never saw the ocean before. And we're just like, let's go. And then we went for it. And it took us like, yeah, three months, I think. Two and a half months with the stops and stuff to cross the Atlantic Ocean.

[00:48:53] And then, yeah, we climbed around part of the team, say, a little bit to Mexico. Seb wanted to go straight to the down wall. So I went with him. And I think I try to make my life the way I can say yes to these things. So like, I'm not taking a side job. I've been living in my van for many, many years to have like freedom and flexibility.

[00:49:19] And because for me, it was, I could have flew there, shot seven down wall and go back three weeks after. But if you want to document something that is good and true, like if I can do that, I don't think I can do that all my life. But, you know, I was there on day one, that Seb and Seb went on the down wall. Like we're all together at the bottom of the wall looking up. And I saw them climbing the first pitch.

[00:49:45] And I was there on the last day when we went down with all the robs and the camp and everything. And they bailed on season one. And I was like as much as possible there in between those two moments. And being able to witness Seb and Seb from day one to like four or five months later, like that's, that's just so like so unique.

[00:50:11] And this is how you, I think this is how at least me, I can tell the story that is true. You know. What were you like on the boat? My wife is, has a background and a little bit of sailing and, and she just, she never crossed the Atlantic. Uh, she was more like Mediterranean based, but, but she's like, yeah, it's actually interesting because it seems like super adventurous, but it's actually really boring.

[00:50:38] Um, a lot of times and you're just very much closed in with, you know, these people that you obviously get along with, but it, it can test all that, you know, being stuck inside of a little boat. Uh, what was it like being on the boat for you? We trained so much actually. And for me, it was good to have like a structure in my day, just being like, okay, like I'm doing my watch from this time to this time and this time to this time.

[00:51:05] And so I was like in between, okay, I'm going to get up pretty early and trained. And I've never really trained in my life before. I think the first time I did hangboarding was on the sailboat. And so like, you want to move too, because you just like seat and your legs are just, you don't have leg muscle anymore after all this time. And yeah, and I was just like, yeah, listen to love podcasts, read some book.

[00:51:34] And we like had like so many different books and we just like exchange book. And so we're like debrief. Oh, what do you think about this book? And yeah, just creating a routine for me was, was good. And I love cooking. So also like cooking for eight people takes time. So it takes a like big chunk of time, which is put on the podcast and cook for two, three hours. And you also sleep a lot. Like the boat makes me really sleepy. So just like sleep a lot or nap for hours.

[00:52:04] And the life was good. It was really easy. The team dynamic was really easy on the boat where like everybody was like, oh, do you guys like hated each other's wanting to kill each other on the boat? And actually it was like so smooth. And then we had the first stop on an island. And then it was hard because everybody want to do something for themselves.

[00:52:27] You've been on this boat and you want to have your, I really want to go climb on this thing. This person's like, I really want to go on the run. And then the captain is like, well, we have this to-do list of things to do for the boat. And I'm like, well, like I, we need to do this, this, this, and this for the film project or the sponsors and blah, blah, blah. And, and so, you know, you have this to-do list and everybody want to do their own thing

[00:52:56] because you've been working for the community on the boat in some way and you want your selfish own moment. And then it was really hard because we had decision to take on like, what are we going to do? We're like on the boat. You don't have any decision to take beside like the weather and the rotting and all of that. And what are we going to eat tonight? Cheek pea or kidney beans? So, yeah, the sailing was pretty easy going on that part.

[00:53:25] You had to go to Mexico? Mm-hmm. Is that right? Because of, yeah, it's something to do with landing in the States. And yeah. So tell us about that. So we were really hoping to get a like long, a different type of visa that you need once the, like, yeah, you're entering the US on the boat. You need a different visa.

[00:53:52] And for this visa, you need to go to the embassy and do an interview. But because it was COVID time, all the embassy were closed and it was impossible to have any appointment. And so like, we're like, you know, like crossing the Atlantic Ocean and we don't have any visa so far, but we're going for it. And then there were several options. And one of them was like going to Mexico, leave the boat in Mexico and like buy a car in

[00:54:20] Mexico and drive up to the US and cross the border just on like regular normal visa. And so we ended up doing this, which was like, I think a good, good idea. We like crossed Mexico. Yeah. It was an RV and it was super fun to do that. Definitely not the east to west crossing of the US, but yeah, it was really fun.

[00:54:46] And then we went back with buses from Fresno all the way to Merida, south of Mexico, like almost Cancun with buses because the car was dead. We haven't done the RV. Yeah. The RVs aren't known for their reliability. So that was the first season. And so you were, how long did you all spend on the wall?

[00:55:14] And it was with Seba Van Hee and Seb Berth and you, just the three of you. That was also Alex Egerment. So we're two filmers. And like, so that was the first stage where like the guys were working on the pitches, fixing everything, fixing the like rub up. And then Seb and Seb had a push on different timing. So they were not together.

[00:55:39] I was with Seb during his push and belayers were like, the team, the sailboat team were like, just like rally and like go up for three days and go down. Someone else will go up for three days and go down, et cetera, et cetera. Which I think was pretty good for Seb. It was like really refreshing to have the friends coming up and different person and like different vibe, different energy, different advices or whatever.

[00:56:06] And to see that also, for me, it was like pretty beautiful to see all his friends willing to support him and, you know, to be there just to belay him for three days and go down. Yeah. And then Seb had a push. And yeah, it was like kind of like different timeline. The moment where like the four of us was mostly the beginning. It was really, really nice.

[00:56:30] Like Sib is such an experienced, adventurous climber. More than like Seb in some ways because like Sib been like putting up first ascents everywhere and like super remote walls and like some really wild expeditions. And he's bringing this aspect. And he's also like from a different part of Belgium than Seb. Like he's Flemish, so he's more organized, you know.

[00:57:01] And I learned so much from Sib on that trip. Like on just, yeah, big old tactics and efficiency and stuff. And it was pretty awesome to have him as a mentor, I guess, in some way. Yeah, it's funny because I talked to him from the Yosemite Lodge. Like, I think they might have just started or they were about to start.

[00:57:26] And then the whole, like, it's a very interesting story of those guys having these kind of realizations about like what they'd really gotten themselves into and how difficult it was. But you're there documenting that, like those realizations and the emotions and, you know, the backing off and realizing it wasn't going to get done that year. Yeah, tell me about that in terms of your sort of documentarian eye, like watching the various emotions

[00:57:56] of something that's that big and that difficult and lasts that long. It is fascinating. And it's also really draining because it's your friends, you see, you know. And I, yeah, like I saw Seeb going down the dark hole, you know, like, and it was really hard. And then he was just like with so many ups and downs that like we documented that. And it's more in this film, Darkest Before Down.

[00:58:24] Yeah, it's like heart breaking at some point. And I, like, witnessed Seeb falling so close to, like, sending, like, so close, like, on the last move, going for the final jog on the pitch 14. And she's, like, right in front of me, like, I could touch him, you know, a meter away.

[00:58:45] And, like, I could see in his eyes he, like, had half a second of a doubt in doing that move. And that was, that was it. He was off. And he fell. And there was, like, he, like, just screamed. And there was, like, this silent moment on the wall. And she was just like, no, no, no, no. Because he knew he blew it. You know, like, he would probably not get another go like that. And there's also, like, the super amazing emotions when he sends.

[00:59:15] And we get to the anchor, like, he's screaming. And there's all the friends in the meadow watching with the binoculars. And you can hear them monkey call because he just sent, like, the motor, I think it was the motor traverse. And that's, like, so beautiful. But it's hard to, yeah, like, you need to empathize. But it can break you, too, you know, like, if you just, like, too attached. Yeah, it's hard to see your friends going through all of that.

[00:59:44] And documenting Brownwind was also really hard because I saw her going down this dark hole as well. And you're just like, what? Yeah, it's a thin line here. I think, like, Seb knew he wanted to go back because he knew he could send it. And I think there was a thing where, like, you spend so much time investing in that thing.

[01:00:10] That, like, it's such a big puzzle that it takes so much time to, like, get all the pieces together to be able to try it. And you can't go, unless you add them on, right, just, like, so fast. You have to do this work of, like, you know, tiny pieces. And this work is so big than, like, to just give you a chance to try. And he already done so much of that work that, like, if he go back, he knew he could do it.

[01:00:39] And, yeah, it would be much faster, you know. But he still, like, waited two years to go back because he sailed again with Solène, which they also, like, called me. So he was like, do you want to come? And I was literally, like, back from the mule, like, still, I think I was just off the boat in Iceland. And she's like, we're leaving in three days. Like, I don't think I could make it.

[01:01:08] That really tested your ethos of saying yes, I'm sure. You were like, man. I would have been psyched for sure. But I was just like, I don't think I can make it. We have, like, one day of driving across Iceland, two days of ferry boat to go to Denmark, and then two days of driving from Denmark all the way back to France. This is not possible. Wait for me. So, yeah, I didn't go. If you could have made it, would you? Yeah.

[01:01:37] Was it just logistics or you would have gone if you could have made it there in time? Yeah, I would have gone for sure. They had a free boat. You never find it. They had a free boat. Like, a free catamaran, luxurious, not the thing we had. Like, they were like, I would have gone for sure. That's like, you know, you have a free ticket to cross the Atlantic Ocean, you just say yes. And then obviously you regret it and you're like, what am I doing with my life?

[01:02:05] You just like, you burn out at some point, you know, you just. Just keep the mail keeps piling up back wherever you get your mail. Whatever, who cares? I have to ask you, because one of the things that we talked about on the lead up to this

[01:02:30] was that you'd been in the States all spring, in Telluride of all places, and are probably going to go back. Well, what's your connection to Telluride? And that's, you know, here in Colorado, not so far from my house, which is, we did discuss maybe waiting to do this, but until you maybe came back. But I just decided that I couldn't wait and wanted to connect with you remotely. But yeah, what's the connection here in Colorado?

[01:02:54] I just have like really good friends that live in Offer mostly. And I just like being there, honestly. It's like very weird and random. And most of the people and my friends are like, Julia, you're like the ultimate dirtbag. I'm like dumpster diving all the time and like living out of my car for like eight or nine years now. They're like, you're always broke. What the heck?

[01:03:24] And I'm just like, I have this like amazing group of friends that lives in Telluride. And I just like it a lot. It's close to the creek. It's close to the black. The local climbing is so good. Offer wall is so, so good. And yeah, it's just, it's just a nice place. Aspen forests are beautiful. You know, it's very random, but I just like being there.

[01:03:52] And I guess this year I was there for three months. Flying back from Torres del Paine. And I was just so exhausted the last, I came back to France 10 days ago and I've been out of the country for over eight months. And I was just really tired of moving around a lot. And I was like, okay, like I know that after very big expeditions, I need a place where I

[01:04:20] feel like safe and good and surrounded by my friends. Just because you're just so tired mentally, physically and everything. And like you go climbing and you're just a piece of shit and you're just so hard on yourself. Or like you're going to be scared of useless stuff just because you've been on very exposed to war for way too long. And I was like, I need to be somewhere I feel good. And so I just, yeah, stopped for three months in Telluride and it was pretty awesome.

[01:04:50] Actually, you know. So mom, the main reason is there is this amazing little pug living out there. His name is Kimshi and he's a very unique little pug. And I'm the proud auntie of this pug. So, you know, I need to spend some time with my little nephew out there. I mean, when you're making the distinction between, or you're not making much of a distinction

[01:05:17] between Ofur and Telluride and there is a big distinction actually. No, there is a big distinction. You know, you drop down into Telluride to do your thing, but Ofur is an interesting kind of corner of the Rockies of the San Juans. That's its own unique little vision up there. Yeah. And yeah, but I, you know, and it's funny because you talk about the Ofur wall. It's like, that's an acquired taste, the Ofur wall. It's all. It's all. I'm glad that you like it. Yeah. It's, it's, I don't like it every day.

[01:05:46] You know, like it's, it's committing, but I like that you have the option to go on those like more heady climbs and like sandbag. But there is like the jungle gym. It's like more sporty, which is pretty nice. I like, and then the dark side is also a little more sporty. It's less adventurous than Ofur wall itself. And then, yeah, I went to strict wall lately, more interior, I did stuff.

[01:06:13] And I was like, this is the best conglomerate ever climbed on. Like more than Margalef or, you know, the Reglass and this place in Spain, just the rock. It was so compact and so good. And it was like, I can do, I can climb like 50 meter long peaches, get really pumped and like climbing like steep and roofy things.

[01:06:35] Or I can go and like place tricky cut, like protections and climb on like this, like very weird, different style of climbing that is going to be more heady. And I can go bouldering or I can also go like, you know, to the creek for two days. Or I can go tension board because there is tension boarding offer. Private one, but, you know, like you have options and, and yeah, just a little town of offer.

[01:07:05] I like it. It's, I like all this old houses, you know, old for the U.S. But like there is like, of like old buildings. If you go run up the mountains from the mining era and like, I just, yeah, I just like this. But it's very random. Yeah, it is a little random. And I, I mean, when you said, told me tell your ride, I was like, Jesus, how does a dirt bag even survive there anymore? But yeah, you have your skills.

[01:07:33] And then like you said, or like I've been saying, offer is a little bit different than, than being like trying to make it happen down there and tell your ride. But yeah, that's cool. I wish I, I wish I'd known you were down there. We would have, we could have done this face to face previously and it would have been nice to hang out. But let me ask you a couple more questions and we'll wrap it up. But so, you know, you're, you're, you said you're 30, is that right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's always an interesting moment.

[01:08:01] Like the end of your twenties, I've talked to so many people around your age, other women, you know, friends of yours even. And it is like, there is, seems to be this kind of reckoning time of like, well, I've been just going and going and going and doing all these, you know, back to back things. You know, you would have gotten off that boat and gotten on another boat. Had you, had you been able to do that, you know, but what does the future look like in

[01:08:29] terms of like continuing that kind of pace? Do you think about it? Like you talk about, you know, the exhaustion of, of just the tension of being on these expeditions is much fun as they are. They're also tense and scary and, and, and have their moments that are exhausting, like you said. So yeah. Tell me about like the future of, of this kind of life that you're, you're leading and are there changes to be made or are you just going to keep burning the, the camp?

[01:08:59] You're going to handle it both ends. Um, I don't know. Like I actually like had like a burnout, I would say two years ago from like burning too much from both sides. And I would say, well, like I wouldn't say healed me. Like we helped me go through this hard time was going on the mirror wall. Which is quite concerning. Yeah. That's the counterintuitive, but go ahead.

[01:09:29] Keep going. I think, you know, like it's always what's next. What's next? What's next? It's like this hyper performative society and like all oriented and like going to the mirror allowed me to have a two month break in life. And like for like, yeah, we're out there a month, month and a half, like out of connection or anything.

[01:09:55] And I was just like, you pose life and you pose like everything, all the expectations, all the pressure, all like the gender thing to like, it was like society was just out of the picture and the whole time I was out there, it was just like hiking bags, finding water, boiling water, eating food to be able to hike another road and then get on the wall.

[01:10:24] And it was like the happiest time in my life. And, and then you, you come back and I was like, oh my God, like I had just, yeah, I just burned out from like trying to do too much all the time. And actually going, going on expeditions, like really gave me peace because I'm just doing

[01:10:46] what I love the most and I don't have to, yeah, just get bothered by like all like the other noise around like life stuff. And I just hold them, you can call it denial maybe. I think I want to find just maybe like more sustainable way to do this in the way like,

[01:11:13] yeah, I've been going back to back to back to back to back for like maybe four or five years. I was doing this sailing trip and then I came back two weeks after I went to Iceland and then I came back and then I went to Patagonia for the first time. And then I came back and then I went to Pakistan straight after and then I came back and I filmed Broadway and for like three months and then I like, you know, went to Greenland and then a few months after Greenland, I went to Patagonia again to this Torbillo expedition.

[01:11:43] And then, you know, it was just like all back to back to back to back to back. And yeah, just be more gentle to yourself if you need some time off. And when I came back from Greenland, I was hanging out at Nico Faber's house, which was really, really good because it like actually takes some time for your body to like relax.

[01:12:12] Back from the expedition is like stuff people don't really talk about or I don't know. And also I don't consider myself as an athlete. I'm a photographer. So I don't apply the same rule that like I would do with an athlete or something. I just treat myself differently and I'm just really sorry to climb and I'm just stuck at climbing. It's so hard. I was getting injured. But yeah, Sabrina like popped my pulley.

[01:12:37] I had this like huge sciatica injury from like carrying too many bags for too long. Couldn't walk. Couldn't climb. And I was still trying to go like lift weight. You know, just I need to do something. And then like all my tendons were painful. It was just my body was just so broke. And Nico was like just being so wise and telling me that like it takes time to recover.

[01:13:06] Just be gentle to yourself. And it doesn't take one week. It's going to take you like two months actually to feel better. And you need this time off to just be stronger. And yeah. Yeah. And also like all the mental aspect of takes time to realize the exposure. Like that's I think one thing leading to my burnout was like I've been like overexposed and denied this.

[01:13:35] And it's just because you're surrounded by the strongest climber in the world. And you're like you're a woman out there too. And you're just with those tough guys. And so your expectation is like I need to be as strong as them. I need to be the same. And that was like that when I was in Patagonia with Pete and Sean. I was like I need to be as fast as Sean and Pete. Oh God. Like you don't want to have a toughness contest with Sean Villanova Driscoll.

[01:14:05] That's you're going to lose that. That's. I know. But. You should hang out with me. Then you'd feel way better about yourself. I think just because I like did so many stuff with those guys that like. Yeah. Like my standards were there. And when I did other trips afterwards like huh. Actually. This feels easier a little bit. But just also I think there was this lack.

[01:14:34] This big lack of models. Of female models. So like I'm out in the mountain. And I'm not like oh like I didn't have anyone to like compare myself to. Other than these two guys in front of me right now. And then afterward I realized it was like really stupid. By the end of the day my brain was doing this. You know like. Be as bold as. Pete and Sean like.

[01:15:02] And yeah I came back from the mountain in Shelton. And after like a very hard window. Well I guess I was going to die several times. On the side of the mountain. And I am going back. I'm like so ashamed of myself. For being scared up there. And I'm like I'm such a lame photographer. Like this is bullshit. And I go to the bar. And I'm talking with my friend Liz Billon. She's like. She's a purely though mountain guide.

[01:15:31] Like she did this first female ascent of the compressor route. And started like two years ago. She's like a huge inspiration. And she's like Julia I had you. Like were you comparing yourself to Pete and Sean over there? Like were you expecting yourself to be the same? Then damn. She's like what the fuck. I don't think you realize with who you were climbing. And I'm not an alpinist. I'm a sport climber.

[01:15:59] I don't have like the alpine background. I don't have the alpine knowledge. I don't have the alpine culture. So it's just you know realizing you like can try as much as you want to be a beast like this guy. But you can't. And that's okay. You know just also be like okay like I can't. Yeah if I'm on this very dangerous walls. Like this time on Torres del Paine. I was like I had a blast.

[01:16:28] It was super exposed. There was like rock fall, ice fall all the time. We got caught in the storms. We spent like 14 days really exposed on the wall. And the days prior like hiking loads and like fixing the bottom part and the hole is also very exposed. The whole time I'm out there I'm like fine. But I know that once I'm off the wall I'm going to need a month or two where like I might be only top propping. Because I'm going to be mentally fried.

[01:16:59] And just allow myself this like time of like yeah just knocking on every rock on the wall. Just like is this going to hold me or it's going to fall. I'm like trying to be more balanced. But like yeah being in Torres del Paine last winter was a big dream of mine.

[01:17:25] As a photographer I feel like I don't have my own personal dream that much. Because you follow other people's dream. Which you know by some extent become your dream too. But yeah just going on this specific route of the South African was a big dream of mine. And then being on this wall too it definitely light a spark. And I want to go back.

[01:17:57] So do you have any plane tickets booked right now? For Torres del Paine? No just anywhere. Oh. What's next? No. No I just came back. I want to try to get a working visa in the US. And that's like half like what I'm working on right now. I'm probably like trying to move in offer. And so that's like a big thing. I don't know if it's going to work or not.

[01:18:23] I want to be able to do expedition and like commercial jobs that finance those expeditions. You know? So like yeah. So like I'm probably going to go back to Terry Ride this summer. And like work on that. And on my connections in the US with like companies and like other creatives out there. That like maybe you want to give me a job.

[01:18:54] Does someone want to sign my visa? Please? You know? I've been very restless for eight years. Moving a lot. And everybody's kind of running out of the country now in the US. And I feel you know pretty bad being like I kind of want to go there and like shame myself a lot for that. And being you know socialist.

[01:19:18] But if there is a place you feel good in the world like you shouldn't guess why you want to go there or question it. You know? Like yeah. I found somewhere I want to be. And that's something I haven't felt ever in my life. All right folks.

[01:19:48] Thanks for listening. And thanks to Julia for doing that. So much fun. I very much hope that she is going to become sort of my neighbor here in Colorado. I mean you know four hours in the West. That's like being a neighbor. It's a little ironic as she noted that she's wanting to move to the United States where a lot of other people may want to get the heck out of here. At least get the heck out of the West. I'm sure the folks in Ophir down there are a little anxious this year. For sure. Praying for rain.

[01:20:18] You can of course follow Julia Kasu on Instagram at Julia.Kasu. Easy enough. She also has a website. Which is an awesome perusal of her work. I give her sort of a C. C- for keeping it up to date. Latest news is maybe three years old. Most climbers news or blogs on their websites are like a decade old. So hence the steady middle of the road C. C-. All right folks. If you're getting out there.

[01:20:48] Have fun. Stay safe. Don't climb in the sun. Don't flick your cigs into the bushes. And of course check your knots.

[01:21:16] I had actually asked Julia Kasu a French photographer before. But she'd never got back to me. Actually she'd never seen this message. She'd never gotten the message. Or she'd never saw the message. And then when she found out that we were going. She was like oh it's my dream. Is there no. Is there no. I don't take much space. Is there any space. Can I. I can fit in a hallway. Yeah. You can. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.