[00:00:00] You are listening to the Enormocast. If you're a very serious climber, and I think you are, why on God's green earth are you red pointing your hardest sport routes in a harness designed for big walls or big routes or all day missions? Extra gear loops, hull loops and padding for that 3-sig aid belay on the captain are not helping you sprint to a set of chains barely 100 feet off the ground.
[00:00:26] That's like casting for brookies with a wiggle warp for Pete's sake. Arc'teryx Equipment and the Enormocast would like to introduce you to the new Lethos SL Harness, developed with input from Jonathan Segrist and Alana Yip. The Lethos is engineered for sport climbing like you mean it. The Lethos SL feels almost weightless whether you're warming up or going for the red point.
[00:00:53] This live little beauty strikes the perfect balance of support, comfort and durability. Meeting the demands of the most committed sport climbers like you. Two gear loops and that's it. And if I catch you red pointing with anything clipped to the Lethos besides a dog draw, we're gonna take those away too. So get serious about sending by adding a Lethos SL Harness to your kit today.
[00:01:17] Go to Arc Terrix.com or your favorite no-nonsense gear shop and check out the lightest thing to come to sport climbing since that 7C you somehow managed to onsite after drinking table wine all night and column nose. Yeah! Yeah! Listen, uh, where are you playing in town? Are you playing here? We're doing the, uh, the Normo Dome, whatever it is. It's terrific. Oh yeah, big place, that side of town. Very nice. That's a big place.
[00:01:45] What the hell are you doing? I couldn't sleep. I'm checking the ropes. I was afraid and on your rope. And I'm cutting it out. No, they're anything.
[00:02:14] Today's show is brought to you by La Sportiva. Arc'teryx Equipment. And with support from Maxim Ropes. Maxim has been keeping the Norma cast off the deck since 2012. And don't forget our charter sponsor, Bonfire Coffee. Go to bonfirecoffee.com and enter Enorma at checkout for a discount on great coffee and to support the Norma cast. And now back to the show.
[00:02:49] Hello and welcome to the Enormocast. This is your host, Chris Kalous. It is June 8th, 2026, about 9 AM here in Northern Wisconsin. And this is episode 325 of the Enormocast, a conversation with climber and hunter Brad Brooks. And yes, as I do a couple of times a year, I'm back here in the Northern Wisconsin studio. I'm literally doing this from my parents' basement.
[00:03:19] Which kind of feels like where DIY podcasting is going. It's being stuffed back underground by multi-million dollar celebrity podcasts. Anyway, we're enjoying our time up here in Northern Wisconsin while I get a little bit of work done. But before we get to Brad's interview, I do have some business to talk about. Once again, I will be attending the Arc'teryx Academy in Squamish, August 21st to the 23rd.
[00:03:43] This will be my third year up there and Arcteryx is obviously now a sponsor of the podcast. But they invited me up there before I was ever sponsored by them. Well, I was sponsored by somebody else, a competitor of theirs. But they didn't care. They just said, yeah, we like what you do. Why don't you come up to this thing? That flirtation ended up with us dating, if you will. So I'm headed up there with lots of business. But mainly we're going to be doing a couple live podcasts during happy hour on Friday and Saturday.
[00:04:13] And by we, I mean myself and my compadre Ryan Devlin at the Struggle Climbing Podcast. We've collabed on a bunch of stuff in the last couple years. Always a good time on or off the mic. I don't need to spray you down details. Just know that it'll be happy hour before the film events on Friday and Saturday in the park. So around 3.34, you know when happy hour is. Come down, listen to his banter. We'll probably have drinks in hand just like a real happy hour.
[00:04:42] And that always goes a little off the rails. So come join us whether you're really participating in the Academy or not. If you're in town, you can come down and check out the events in the park, including our live podcasts Friday and Saturday evening during happy hour. That's the Arc'teryx Academy in Squamish, August 21st to the 23rd. You have Google. You can figure it out. Come on by. Okay, let's get to this interview with Brad Brooks. Someone suggested Brad as an interview and I was interested right off the bat.
[00:05:11] I like these kind of crossover, let's go into different worlds kind of podcasts. Brad is an adventure hunter. He has a company called Argali Outdoors that makes gear oriented towards expedition hunting, going out for multiple days at a time. I feel like there is a bit of a political divide between the hunting world and the climbing world. We talk about that here in this podcast.
[00:05:33] But the reason I really wanted to get this one done is because I did notice this spring sort of this grassroots alliance that popped up between hunting and fishing and climbing and hiking and sort of crunchier environmentalists. As the Trump administration and the Republican led states here in the West really began this kind of onslaught movement to try to privatize, sell off public lands, largely to open them for extraction industries.
[00:06:03] And though I have a bunch of friends here in Carbondale who are climbers and hunters, I've always felt like maybe we are at least perceived to be in different lanes with climbing and hunting. So Brad Brooks is a guy that runs in both lanes. He's a passionate rock climber. He's also a passionate hunter. He's also been part of the conservation movement. He's been on the board of the American Alpine Club. So this guy's really dipped into both worlds and makes him the perfect guy to talk about it.
[00:06:32] We do talk a little bit about politics in here. If you don't like that in your climbing podcasts, I don't know what to tell you. Life is political. How and where we climb and how it impacts other groups and communities is political. And the same goes for hunting. Okay, let's get into it. A conversation with climber hunter and impresario of Argali Outdoors, Brad Brooks. The year is 2016.
[00:07:00] We're still reckoning with the sudden mainstream interest in TCKJ and the Dawn Wall. Climbing had been confirmed for the Olympics and the whining about speed climbing was just getting ramped up. Though his magnum opus, Silence, remained in the future. Andra is tearing up 515. And J-Star is too. Just a little more quietly, as is his way. Tick-Tock innocently appears in September.
[00:07:28] And we remain blithely unaware of what a social media climbing influencer is. But, perhaps the most groundbreaking climbing leap in 2016, at least according to this commercial, the introduction of the Sportiva Squama. So futuristic, it remains cutting edge 10 years on. No one thought a high-performing shoe could handle all terrain and feel this good doing it.
[00:07:53] Yet there it was, in our hands, on our feet, and nestled in our soles like a little baby bird quietly cooing. Squama! And to mark this monumental moment in climbing history, Sportiva has introduced a celebratory color scheme for the 2026 Squama, while retaining its essential nature as the baddest shoe in the land. So go back to the future and head over to sportivana.com or your favorite local shop and check out any permutation of the legendary Squama.
[00:08:23] And then ask yourself one thing. What would you do for the scent? I do believe in the old accent. Like, if you want something done, ask somebody who's busy. Because... I've never heard that, actually. You haven't heard that? No. Oh. It's absolutely been the truth in my life. The busiest people I know, like my friends, are the ones who I can reliably count to do what they say they're gonna do. I can ask them to do something. Most of the guys I climb with are in their 20s, which is funny.
[00:08:52] And they've got no kids, no wife, no responsibility, no mortgage, nothing. And it's like, I can't get a text back from half of them within half a day. It's like, what are you doing? I know you're on your phone all the time, but why can't you text me back? And then, you know, you text... I text somebody that's my age cohort and it's like, you know, yeah, I'm just gonna respond to that right away. Let me take care of that, check it out, whatever. It's just... How old are you? I'm 43. Okay, 43.
[00:09:18] You know, that is the story of like performance climbers, not necessarily past an age, although the age has something to do with it. But, you know, a family man, you know, a business owner, like you have this life structure. And that usually means that we have to find younger climbing partners than we are, especially if you're like a performance climber. You know, and like I would imagine you have a...
[00:09:42] Like me, you have a sort of stable of guys who are in your, you know, way of life. But then you have these other folks that you need to kind of lean on as well. The longer we get in the sport, you know, a lot of those other people move on and, you know, I'm 55. Luckily, I've got like... I mean, I have literally four or five good climbing partners here that are coincidentally the exact same age. Yeah. Like we're all within months of each other.
[00:10:11] We're all 55 or 54 or 56, you know, right? Depending on whose birthday's next. And I think that's pretty unusual actually. I think so too. I've got... I have... One, two, three. I have four climbing partners that are my age that are still what you call like probably performance rock climbers, like people that are still trying hard. And... But everybody else has faded away. Everybody else. And I call them like...
[00:10:37] I've got my like A, B, and C list of, you know, I don't know if you have... I don't put them in official category. I don't have a notebook, but... Right. You know, when I'm... When I want to go climbing, it's like I got, you know, the A list is reliable. They're busy, all busy. So like lining schedules is not always easy. It's such a transient thing. At least it has been for me living in Idaho that most people I grew up with climbing, they have all gotten out of it and still dabbled.
[00:11:06] But as you and I both know, it's like you get out of the game for too long and then everybody else kind of stays at a certain place. And then it's like, well, yeah, you just... You're at different places. And so it's hard to climb the same stuff together or go on a road trip together anymore. And then, yeah, you end up climbing with younger people. And I actually enjoy it. I feel like that keeps me... It's fun to listen to their lives.
[00:11:32] And it gives me a good glimpse into what the youths are doing these days because... Yeah. Yeah, it's just... It's really entertaining. So I like having that diversity. But the core group of guys that I've still climbed with, like we're... There's very few lifers. You know what I mean? And you can... I feel like I've gotten so jaded too. Now when I meet somebody at the gym, like I'm like, this guy is going to last. Like he's in it. He's... You know, they got that like obsessed...
[00:12:00] There's that obsessive personality trait that attracts climbers. But then they might be on to the next thing like mountain biking or... I don't know, skydiving or paragliding. And I have seen that, right? Some like really talented climbers that I've climbed with. But you can just kind of tell they're not really... Like this is like a fun thing for now, but they're going to move on for whatever reason. And they usually do. And then unfortunately when that turned out to be true, then you just get even more jaded about...
[00:12:29] I'm like, how much time should I invest in this person? Yeah. Because they're going to move on and then I'm going to have to be like... And then we... You know, the only thing we have in common, excuse me, is climbing. And then you're like, okay, well, after this goes away, then I don't know if we'll hang out as much. And I kind of hate that about climbing partners too. I try and find partners that I actually have more in common with than just climbing.
[00:12:55] And those are the ones, those are the people that I, that, you know, our friendship endure beyonds climbing. But if we're being honest, like how many, what percent would you say of climbing partners? If climbing went away in your life, you would just kind of not hang out with them anymore. Not by choice, but just by default. Yeah. I mean, I, I, you know, I can't put a number on it, but it's, it's happened. I mean, it's happened the other direction where they got out of climbing and like, I don't, I don't know what they're doing now. Yeah. But you know, it's like, yeah, it comes down.
[00:13:24] I mean, a lot of times, and this is, this is like the discussions you can sort of either have with the younger climbers or just have them in your head while you're climbing with them. Cause you don't want to like sound like grandpa or whatever. Sure. Um, or sound like their dad. Um, but yeah, you have those, those thoughts about like, um, you know, how much time do I need to put into this outside of climbing? Like, you know, you're just kind of like, yeah, it's, it's, I mean, our lives is all about the economy of time.
[00:13:52] You know, um, we have all these other things like this, it's a beautiful day out right now. I have an opportunity to go climbing this afternoon, but I also, you know, it would be better if I was home in time tonight to be useful. Right. And so I've like decided, I don't always make this decision, but today it's like, yeah, I'm not going. I'm going to come home and be useful. Um, you know, and put that time in there.
[00:14:16] But, uh, uh, let's, let's go out of the meat of this thing, which is, um, you know, I got an email from, from somebody. I think that knows you. I can't, I can't remember. So I did track it down. He does know me. He didn't ask me. So just so you know, I didn't, I didn't ask him, Hey, would you send Chris an email? I, it is, it is one of the younger, uh, younger crushers that I climb with. And he, uh, he, he, he knows obviously about like our golly and that I hunt.
[00:14:43] And he's like, do you ever heard of your normal cast? I was like, Oh yeah, of course, man. I know the normal cast. He's like, Oh, I sent Chris an email. I don't know what's sending an email or DM. And I'm like, I don't pay attention to my DMS or, you know, um, or most of my emails from strangers go straight to my spam. And so not by not, I'm not trying to miss them. They just don't, I don't ever see them. So I was like, Oh, so anyways, yes, I did track it down.
[00:15:06] But, um, but yeah, the idea that was compelling to me is that, you know, you have these, these two passions, right? Hunting and climbing. And you made a film about that, you know, kind of discussing those, the parallels. Um, and I, I just thought we'd go off piece a little bit in terms of, of talking to you about those two passions. That's that same idea of kind of the intersection because climbers are generally seen as sort of these like kind of foofy tree huggers a lot of times.
[00:15:35] And hunters are seen in their light of, you know, being, you know, stone cold killers or whatever. And we can find like an intersection here, but it sometimes does seem like a, a not so parallel world. Um, if you will, or, or maybe parallel is the right thing cause they never do intersect. But, um, I wanted to kind of just start with, before we get into that, uh, which came first the, the hunting or the climbing? Uh, I was a soccer player. So my background is I played soccer all through college and grew up hunting.
[00:16:05] My dad's like a Midwest, like classic, what we call Midwest white tail hunter. So I wasn't like a big mountain hunter. And then we moved out to Idaho when I was really young. And so hunting was always been a part of my life. And then. Where'd you start in the Midwest? No, I started in California. No, I mean where, when you said, oh, your dad's from the Midwest. He's from the Midwest. He was, yeah, he met my mom in California.
[00:16:28] And then when I was really young, he moved us out to Idaho cause he wanted to get us out of, uh, Southern California, which I'm eternally grateful to him for. No offense to anybody from Southern California, but I can't live there. Or just not made for it. So hunting has always been a part of my life, but certainly not the kind of hunting I do now. And I was really preoccupied with, with soccer. It kind of took up my, all my free time when I wasn't, it was like soccer, hunting school and whatever else kids do. Um, just kind of generally getting into trouble.
[00:16:56] Um, and then when I was a senior in college, my spring semester, I needed one more credit to keep my scholarships. And so I took a, I saw a climbing class. So I was 22 and took that class and I was obsessed from that minute on. And it's, uh, either been the best, best choice or the worst choice in my life. I think it's open for debate. No, it's been really good. So then in that point in time, that's when I really started getting into climbing.
[00:17:26] And after college, I wasn't good enough to be a pro soccer player. That world looked, uh, bleak for me. I was like good enough to be a mediocre, I maybe, maybe like a bench warmer in the MLS or something. It's probably where I would have been, which I was aware paid like nothing at the time. Um, so that wasn't an option. And so I was looking for, I think if you're, I'm a, I've always been a very competitive person
[00:17:52] and I got into competitive mountain bike racing and I did that for a while, uh, while I was also climbing. And then I grew to hate that because, uh, I was only racing mountain bikes to win and there was no joy in it for me, which was a sad realization to come to at one point. I remember I won last mountain bike race. I did, I won the race and I didn't get on my bike for three months after that. I was just over it.
[00:18:19] And climbing was this nice thing because I wasn't, it wasn't me competing against a bunch of other people in a race or a game. As we know, it's just competing against yourself. And so that was really refreshing to, to have this thing that I could do and push myself, but it wasn't about, there was no winning. There is no winning, right? Uh, you know, sending your project is the most satisfying, most depressing feeling in the world. Cause then you're like, well, you know, what am I going to do next? Yeah.
[00:18:48] We've discussed at length, the, the sort of anti-climax of red pointing something. It's so disappointing, right? Um, yeah. And in fact, this is a sidebar, but I actually did that route that I was trying and run out that I couldn't do. I did it last year. Okay. That's the film. Yeah. Yeah. In the film. Yeah. And I, three of my good climbing buddies were there and everybody said, nice job. And then the next question was, so you're going to do that, you know, the thing to the right next. And I was like, yeah, I think, I think so. Yeah.
[00:19:17] I'm gonna do the next one. Um, and I've continued to punt on that thing for a while now, but yeah, so that was, that was how I got into it. And then I was fortunate to meet some people. We have a, uh, really a bouldering area real close to Boise. And I met a couple of people that were into trad climbing and within three months I went to Indian Creek. It was the first ever road trip I ever took. I'd never placed a cam in my life, never crack climbing in my life. And so that was like the beginning of it. Right.
[00:19:45] It was just like off, off from there. And you know, what, what form did like the hunting take, you know, in terms of, I, I, a lot of times I talk about climbers like, okay, yeah, you were sort of climbing and then all of a sudden it, it, you know, it became this like, you know, all encompassing thing a lot of times. Um, the modern version of it obviously involves the gym. There's no version of that in, in hunting necessarily.
[00:20:10] So, um, you know, you grew up hunting, it's interesting, but you know, when do you go all in on the type of hunting that you're doing, which to describe is, I mean, you do all sorts of forms, but it seems to be your deep passion is for, for bow hunting and the kind of bow hunting that involves tracking and days on end and, and, um, stalking the animal and all sorts of things, which is important to know.
[00:20:36] Cause you mentioned being a Midwest, uh, Midwest white tail hunter doesn't necessarily involve that. That's my family background actually is, is Wisconsin. It's very different. Yeah. It's very different. So, yeah. So yeah. When did that like go over the fall? Oh man. Yeah. So I was, for me, hunting was like a, it was something I loved doing, but it was a bit of a casual affair. So weekends and I, I, I got into bow hunting later, but for, for us, hunting was just something you did.
[00:21:04] And then after I got done, after I got out of my undergraduate, I started wanting to combine backpacking and hunting. And I, so I started doing these adventure hunts just on my own. And then I met two really good friends who were crazy enough to want to do these things where we'd go in like 12 mile backpacks and go backpack hunts, go in, in like end of October, November, sort of living in winter and hunting at the same time. And I really, there was something for me.
[00:21:35] I was never a religious person growing up at all. I tried to be religious, but it just didn't take. And that was the closest thing I had to a religious experience. Wait, wait, what did that look like? What do you mean? Trying to be religious. Well, I mean, like I say that, like my mom went to Catholic school. Okay. So she grew up Catholic. My dad is, what's the really, what's the big church in the Midwest? Is it Methodist? Lutheran Methodist. He was a Lutheran, right?
[00:22:03] And my parents were really, they, they encouraged us to be free thinking individuals. And a part of that there, they really can, you know, encourage us to explore religion in different ways. So like I tried, I'm just like, I'm a very curious person. I'll try most anything 10 times is my rule. That's a joke, Chris. I'll try anything, right? So like, I was like, I'm going to, I want to just see what these churches are like.
[00:22:31] And so I had a girlfriend at the time who her parents were Baptist. I didn't know what Baptists were at all. I had no idea. And I remember going to this kind of like revivalist Baptist church and just being like, what have I done? Where am I right now? But it was a good experience, right? You can, I think once you actually go experience those things, then you can have an opinion on what that's like until you do it. Like it seems a bit judgmental to me. I grew up around Mormon culture, right? That's Idaho.
[00:23:00] And the number of times I had my Mormon friends try and convert me to Mormonism. I can't even count on, I don't have enough hands and fingers and toes for that. But I actually, I've only been due, I went to a Mormon church for like a service, but I was, Mormonism was never for me. It was, anyways, I tried, I like went to Catholic church. I went to these different churches to see like, what is this all about? And this is in my teenage years, right? I was just trying to figure out like, is this something that I'm interested in? And the answer was definitely not, was no.
[00:23:30] It was a hard no for me. So I didn't find anything in religion that filled my cup. In fact, it was the opposite. I, I, what I learned from that is like, I will never be a church goer. Uh, I, I like spending time outside. I like connecting with nature. Hunting was the closest thing I ever had to a spiritual experience. Living in the mountains by yourself in the middle of nowhere is, um, something that has like always been really special to me.
[00:24:00] It's what still to this day, what keeps me centered in the universe. So that was like the first time I was like, oh, maybe there is something about this that is like just ingrained in my being that likes to be in wild places and connecting with wild animals. And I think some people might listen to this who don't hunt and find that to be a contradiction that you would want to kill those animals. But for me, uh, I would, I would, I would say to those people, life eats life. We all eat living things.
[00:24:30] I don't care if you eat kale three squares a day of kale, like you are killing shit, whether or not you're willing to acknowledge it or not the way that kale is farmed, right? The way that, that, that soil is tilled. You're just killing different animals and different critters. But what's the difference between a bug's life or a mouse's life that dies from that farming practice versus somebody who goes out and kills an elk and that's your food source.
[00:24:54] So I started to really get into this idea of feeding myself before I was married and had kids with animals who live this incredibly wild life rather than farm raised animals. And so, so hunting became both this thing that was deeply spiritual. And I never, I wouldn't talk about it in that way at that time. Cause I don't think I understood it in those terms, but I certainly do today. And it was a way for me to connect with my food.
[00:25:22] You don't know what it's like to eat an animal until you killed it, butchered it at your own table. It is a different human experience, right? Um, when you buy, and this is going to sound like an anti, like a anti-farming meat, uh, rant, but you go to a restaurant, you buy whatever, a piece of chicken, you get your chicken sandwich, whatever it is, right? You don't think about, man, I wonder where this chicken lived. What did it eat? I do when I, not with my chicken, but with my wild animal, my wild, the game we eat. Right.
[00:25:51] So I know I have an intimate relationship with my food and, um, this is going to sound morbid, but like when you kill an animal, unless you're a psychopath, you feel something there can be happiness and sadness at the same time. Happiness that you are going to eat and sadness that this animal had to die. So you could eat, you can feel both those things at the same time. And I have felt them many, many times, um, throughout my life, but I just knew that to me, I felt connect.
[00:26:21] I felt much closer connected to just my, my world, my environment through hunting. And bow hunting is like, it's such an intimate experience. It feels like this ultimate chess match where you have to tap into that, like primal part of you that, that is a hunter. We all have it in us. I think most people just don't know where to find it or how to tap into it. But I guarantee you, if you, if you put, um, most people out in the woods and said the
[00:26:51] only way you're going to eat, here's a bow. So you needed to figure out how to kill something. You would learn pretty fast how to get in touch with that primal part of yourself. Yeah. Some people would probably starve to death. Let's be honest. Right. We're not all, we're not all hunters and killers. No. Yeah. And I think the food culture part of hunting has been a relatively recent thing. And I think it's, it's been a good thing for hunting. I think the most people think of hunters as like rednecks. Right. Right.
[00:27:18] And it's funny to me because like I am a, I spent 18 years working in the environmental movement. I worked as a professional environmentalist. Right. But people who don't know that about me, they hear that I hunt, especially in the climbing world. And they're like, oh, this guy's just another Idaho redneck, you know? And, uh, it's, it's funny the judgments we make about people. Right. Um, just in general, we all, we all judge people and I don't take offense to it at all. I'm, I'm used to it, but.
[00:27:45] They can't spend more than five minutes with you before you've dispelled that. A little bit. Uh, yeah, probably, probably. But I mean, I don't know. It's like, you know, you meet somebody from a, um, and I'm going to, these are like just gross generalizations, but they have been true. You meet somebody who maybe is from a big city east, you know, on one of the coasts and they, they don't, uh, I don't know. I mean, their, their world experience is pretty, uh, might be, might be relatively limited in
[00:28:12] terms of exposure to people in more rural places. Not that I live in a rural place. I live in Boise, Idaho. Not very, it's not, not exactly rural, but if you've never been to Idaho, you might as well live in a potato field. You know what I mean? Like it's all the same. So I think it just depends on. Your experience with the world and experience meeting, uh, people in different places and have different backgrounds. I, but I, I honestly look at all those opportunities to just to talk to people about hunting.
[00:28:43] I love those opportunities. And I have met a handful of people who were diehard vegans for the better part of their life who have become hunters. That to me is a really fascinating thing. I think, and this is, and we can get off this tangent, but I, I do think that there is a large disconnect. And I think it is a, a pleasant disconnect for a lot of people to think that, that they are living a guilt-free life because they don't eat meat.
[00:29:12] And I would, I would love talking to those people, uh, because I will oftentimes bring up the, the sort of bycatch situation that happens with all agriculture, right? All agriculture has a consequence. There's a trade-off. Like we have to eat and things die for us to eat. And that's a really inconvenient truth for everybody to acknowledge. Even vegetarians and vegans, things die. So you can have food. That's just a, just a fact of life. It may not be the same things that I'm eating, but things are definitely dying.
[00:29:41] So you could eat and I'm okay with it. I don't judge people for that. I'm like, it's just a fact. I knew this would happen. We're going to kind of wander into the moral issues and things like that, which is kind of why I had you on, um, the environmental issues. Um, but before we get to that, although we're getting to it, it'll just kind of pepper, pepper this whole conversation. Um, I wanted to go back to this like hunting thing where you, where you, you said you dived in deep and it's funny cause right away I was like, well, this is the point in the climbing
[00:30:10] podcast where I would ask the person to tell me about an expedition that like moved them or changed their life or really like was the epitome of like what they're into. So now I'm going to ask you that, but tell me, tell me one of these like, you know, kind of wilderness back country hunting trips that was like, you know, where are these thoughts and these things kind of crystallized as you said that it wasn't something you were thinking about as a younger person, but they started to come together in your brain.
[00:30:40] Was there, was there like a, a, an epiphany moment or, or a series of, of hunts that you were like dipping into that world? Yeah. I would say two, two, two experiences. One was, uh, hunting in the Arctic hunting in the Brooks range of Alaska, uh, with my dad. Absolutely. One of the wildest places I've ever experienced to this day. And I've been there a number of times. And every time I've, I go to like the Brooks range, I go to the Arctic.
[00:31:06] If you go to the Arctic and you aren't moved spiritually, there's something like wrong with you. It is just so stunningly beautiful and you feel so insignificant and that feeling of insignificance, like the world just does not care about you. It was just really present when I was there. Um, and then I'd say the second one and probably more impactful to me was we did a, are you familiar with the middle fork of the salmon here in Idaho, the longest stretch of undammed river? Yeah.
[00:31:34] It's a really popular summer float trip. I did a November float trip, um, on that river hunting and floating the middle fork with my buddy, Charlie. And what we did essentially is like we, we flew in, got dropped off and then we floated the river. It's, I don't think we flew in November 7th or so and floated the river and then we would backpack off the river. So there's not many people doing it that time of year. The middle fork of the salmon is notoriously some of the most rugged country I've ever been
[00:32:05] in and it was cold to the point that I had, I borrowed a buddy's dry suit that had a leak in it. And so I was wet most of the time we were rafting and it was, you know, obviously very cold. I lost sensation in my toes that I didn't get back for my big toe for about eight months. Um, so it was that kind of like suffer fest, but it was beautiful and I loved it. Um, and I got done with that trip and I was just like, I need to do as much of this as I possibly can.
[00:32:35] Like, it was just amazing. And I can't really explain it, but if you've been on those kinds of trips, if you've done, if you do something like that, you will know exactly what I'm talking about. Um, just yeah. Being out of touch with the world for 10 days, having, you know, nobody rely on, but yourself and the people, you know, right around you and there's no safety valve. No one is going to save you. No one's going to come get you out.
[00:33:00] So, um, that was definitely a pretty, uh, pivotal moment in my life. When you commented on, you know, this idea that these trips and then the hunting, um, and killing the animals has you sort of intimately engrossed in, in the environment and in this world in a way that I think you would argue that is hard to reach otherwise. You know, it made me think about climbing.
[00:33:26] Like, you know, you're seem to be at least in this point in your life, primarily a sport climber that has a lot to do with the same reasons I am, which is that it's easy to go do for an afternoon or for a half day or for whatever, which is a lot of times all we can scrape out of our lives to go climbing. But even that, right. Is, uh, is like, we kind of forget that, that, that it is also this like intimate interaction
[00:33:52] with something that we kind of blow off in terms of like, it feels like, you know, I tell people that don't climb, like, you know, we go climbing, like we go, people go golfing. Like it's not always this vision quest out there in the middle of nowhere, but it's still this, like, I think about it even, you know, in these local crags, like our, our crags rifle and, you know, people drive by and ooh and ah, the cliffs, or they, you know, they hike and come and have a picnic and, and because they want to get into nature.
[00:34:21] And I'm like, yeah, but you know, we're like, it's interesting because we're always taking it one step further. I mean, sticking your fingers in these crevasses, or sorry, sticking these fingers in these crevices in the wall is like a really sort of intimate way to get to know something, you know, like I always joke with teaching crack climbing. Like this is the only place in, in your life where you will purposely shove your hand into a dark crack in a rock.
[00:34:48] Like no one's going to do that ever any other way, but you're going to go in there and feel out what's in there. And maybe there's something in there you don't like, you know, like no one would walk up to a rock and shove their hand elbow deep into a hole in that rock. Like a sane person wouldn't, but we do. But I mean, do you see those parallels and why you climb or, you know, what are the parallels in terms of the challenge as well? Yeah. So, uh, your comment is very true for me.
[00:35:15] Like when you, when, when somebody asked me like, what do you like to climb? My, my mind immediately goes to alpine climbing, which is my passion, but it's so, it's time intensive. Right. And where I'm at in life right now, I unfortunately am a sport climber. Um, I still do some alpine climbing, but like I've learned to embrace it, Brad. I, I, I'm trying to just be like, it's fine. I, I, well, but it's funny cause my mind immediately goes like climbing moonlight buttress or going
[00:35:45] to the elephant's perch, you know, which I've spent a ton of time at and that's where I want to be. And I still do that stuff, but just it's, it's not as frequent as I would like. And it's okay. Uh, it's just a season of my life I'm in right now with young kids and a business and all that. For me though, sport climbing does scratch the itch that I have to, and it's a psychological itch. It is, uh, the same thing that hunting does for me. It's, it's like a mental reset, right?
[00:36:13] So one way I get a mental reset is to disconnect for days on end out hunting. The other way is it can, it can happen with an afternoon sport climbing session. It doesn't happen at the gym. Really? I enjoy that, but that's just kind of work, but going out cragging for a day or half a day or an afternoon gives me that mental reset to just be like, I'm not paying attention to email life, whatever. All those problems are going to have to wait for a second.
[00:36:40] Um, while daddy tries to send his prod, you know? Uh, so it does that for me. And, and the other thing that, so, so bow hunting, and I don't know if this is what you meant, but bow hunting requires like a level of focus that is so, so similar to climbing when you're in any climber knows that when you're trying to do something at your limit, or that's maybe challenging for you, you have to be really locked in to the moment and you can't be thinking about whatever else is on your mind.
[00:37:10] It's the same thing with bow hunting. If you're not locked in, you're not going to have success and, and the, the climbers that I do know that hunt understand that. But, um, I think climbers would make great bow hunters. So everybody listening to this podcast who climbs has been like hunt curious, wants to get out there and pick up a bow. Like you'd crush it, you know? So to me, those are the two parallels, but yeah, it is that, that hard reset, um, that happens in my mind. Does that make sense? That like reset button?
[00:37:39] Oh yeah. Just that like that Zen that was, you know, you get an hour of Zen when you're climbing or two hours or three, whatever it is. Right. I mean, that's the appeal. That's, that's what most people is their default reason for climbing is, is, you know, that. And I think that as like, you know, sort of outdoor climbing addicts, we, we, we kind of like, oh yeah, the gym doesn't do it for us, but you know, there's plenty of people who use the gym, gym climbing for that. Absolutely.
[00:38:07] And, and they, and, you know, they want to work out which they could do on a machine or they could do with weights, but they get this added bonus of, you know, like you just said, this moment where even a little bit of fear that they might get in the gym might trigger it. Or just the intensity of trying to figure out a move can get them there, which, um, you know, I totally sympathize with. And, you know, if we had a gym, I would experiment more with that, but, um, but we don't.
[00:38:34] So I also look at a gym a lot of times as training for, for something else. Um, and there isn't, yeah, but, um, you've been in sort of environmental work in the past or, or, and continue to probably. And it's an, that's an interesting thing because you were talking about like judgment of hunters and I've got a lot of it. I'll be honest with you. I don't have a problem with, you know, this idea of, of necessarily killing the animal because
[00:39:00] I, I agree with you that, you know, to live in this world where we're living things, you're absolutely right. I know all about that, that cost of agriculture towards living things and thing like that. Cause I, I'm from a hunting family. Um, uh, bow hunters as well. Actually my, you know, my dad grew up a farm kid shooting whatever, um, as you do in Northern Wisconsin, especially back in the sixties, you know?
[00:39:24] Um, but my brother and him both, uh, bow hunted for a very long time, but my interaction has been, uh, you know, a lot of times somewhat negative with the, with hunting culture that, you know, looks like guys raising hell that looks like, you know, a lot more beer drinking and getting the fuck away from things a lot more like gun fetishing, which is what I call it. You know, like you're out there without hunting, but it's cause you wanted to buy like 16 different
[00:39:54] fucking guns, you know, and go stroke them in the woods, so to speak. Like all those things, like, you know, and I've always respected, like, you know, my, my father who comes from this, like, again, this farming background, he was a farm kid. It was very much food on the table, right? Literally that was part of like fall season is to, is to get food and stuff like that. And he's not psychotic about his guns and things like that. And, um, again, they both bow hunted, but they also go hunt in Texas and Texas has got
[00:40:23] a weird hunting culture in my opinion. And I've, I've joined in, I've gone a couple of times. Um, I killed a deer, I don't know, about a decade ago down there, but I was just like, what's going on down here. And then I look at what you do and I'm like, ah, yeah, like that, that feels climbing to me. That feels like it's, it's got the connections to why I want to be in the mountains, you know, versus some of these other cultures.
[00:40:48] But this one thing that's happened recently that I was, I was pleased with, um, and I have plenty of friends here who are elk hunters who are climbers, um, and, and, and mule deer hunters that are climbers and stuff like that. And, but like kind of this recent attack on public lands that's happened has been interesting because all of a sudden it did seem to make a lot of intersection between us climbers and hunters
[00:41:16] because there was a lot of hunting and fishing people who were suddenly taking a stand as well. That, that, that alongside of us, um, the boundary waters thing that came up, the mining area in the boundary waters was another one that was like, oh, wait a minute, we're in this together, but we have felt at odds at other times. So can you kind of talk about like those attitudes and where they intersect and are at odds?
[00:41:41] I'd say that like climbing or hunting is just like climbing and that I'm sure you've met assholes at the crag, like blaring their music, talking shit, spraying you down. Like those same subsets exist in every part of our culture, no matter what your sport is. The same thing with hunting. There are hunters that I cannot stand.
[00:42:05] I will never defend all hunters for being good people, good humans, good stewards of the environment. In fact, just the opposite, I view part of my job and that's one of the great things about where I'm at now with our golly is we have an opportunity to help bring more hunters into the fold to help them understand why a good environment, a clean environment, a healthy environment is good for hunting.
[00:42:32] Most hunters, I would argue do understand that now they might own their guns, right? So that's like a whole separate topic. They kind of have to, um, or a bow or both. But I would say that, uh, the, in my experience with hunters has been that it's just like any other segment of the population. There are good eggs and bad eggs, but the vast majority of hunters, I do think understand that a healthy environment is, is good for us.
[00:43:01] And my, my hunting friend group, I would say like spans, this is kind of a political question, right? Um, that you're asking. It is. Yeah. They span the political spectrum. Some of the, uh, I would say some of the very, very conservative friends that I have politically can also be the strongest environmental advocates that you have ever seen. And I think that's really hard for some people to like wrap their head around. It's like, how could you vote for Trump and also be pissed off when the boundary waters gets
[00:43:31] rescinded? The protection of the boundary. How could you do that? Right? It upsets people. They're like, you voted for this guy. And you know, how, what did you expect? I think that we love putting people in boxes so much. It's like you fit in this little box over here, right? Or you fit in this box over here. And the reality is that most people don't fit neatly into a box. I don't fit neatly into a box. Um, I, so, so my previous work, uh, I worked on, I ran public lands campaigns all over the
[00:43:59] country for conservation, wilderness areas, national monuments. That was my job. And I did it all over the place. I love doing it where I'm at now too. It's, it's, uh, I still do that work. I just do it through the lens of my hunting company and it's a different way to approach the same issue. So instead of me being a professional conservationist trying to get, you know, people to support public land protections, I do that as a business.
[00:44:25] And what I have noticed is there are a lot of people who hunters, I should say by people who just haven't taken an interest, uh, one way or another about these issues. And when we send out an email to a whole pile of people about an issue like the boundary waters, which we do because we, we use our business voice to advocate for things that we think are really important to, to hunters.
[00:44:52] Uh, you, you find a surprising response from people, I think, or it might be surprising to most people that these people like hunters are like, are really pissed off about a lot of these issues too. I, I did help, uh, on the sportsman when the public lands disposal thing was going on last summer. I worked with a handful of other hunting industry brands to organize that. Um, there was a business, uh, coalition effort, um, that I helped put together and I love doing that kind of stuff.
[00:45:21] It was not a hard sell to get some of these massive firearms companies. I'm not going to name names, but it's all on the internet. I mean, there are huge firearms manufacturers that have a lot of weight and they were pulling it real strong behind the scenes and publicly on that public lands effort, which was really cool to see. Cause you don't see that that often now are those same companies going to speak out for the boundary waters? I don't know. Probably not. Let's be honest.
[00:45:47] But there is a lot of overlap between those two worlds. And I think it's your experience, what I heard you say, it's like, I've had some negative experience with hunters and I'm like, I get it, man. I get it. So have I, uh, in fact, I have them about every year and you know, those, those can run like one of two ways either, either, you know, sometimes those people are just open to hearing why they're, you know, being assholes. And if you approach them the right way, sometimes you can have a really good interaction.
[00:46:18] Other times, not so much, but I would argue that's probably the exact same with, I've ran into the same, I've ran into climbers. Uh, can I tell you a really funny tangent on a climbing, uh, a parallel between climbing quick. There was a guy that moved from out of state. I'm not going to say what city he's from, but it's a very popular climbing city in, in the West that moved to Boise. It rhymes with older. You said it. I didn't. And he wanted to put perma draws on one of our local crags where the access, like the
[00:46:47] BLM threatens about every year to chop the bolts. Cause it was, it was illegally bolted by Nero back in the day. And, uh, it's a great crag. And he was like talking about putting perma draws. We were at the crag and he's just like going on and about, we should have perma draws on all these because they're all steep routes. And I'm like, it would be nice, but man, you shouldn't do it. And he just moved to town and he's, and he got really aggro about it. And he's like, nobody can tell me what to do. And I'm like, Hey man, I'm just trying to be nice. Like you just moved here.
[00:47:15] Can you just respect the fact that you shouldn't do that? And, um, we got into a bit of an argument in the crag about it. Um, and he ended up putting perma draws on a bunch of the, the, uh, bolts out there. And then we promptly removed them. So those segments of people can exist in any, I would argue just any sport. And I've had those on both, both with hunting and with climbing. And it's just, I think it's just a people thing. Well, let me ask you about your company. Um, you know, it's hunting gear, it's hunting gear oriented towards the type of hunting that
[00:47:44] you do, you know, within that marketing, you're advocating for that type of experience. But, you know, we always talk about, you know, when you make a passion, your, your work, does it threaten, does it threaten the passion? Um, you know, that goes in climbing all the time. The, the sponsored climbers burnt out the guide, uh, I think is more common that a guide burns out because they thought, you know, I'd, I'd become a guide and climb all the time. Yeah.
[00:48:09] Where does that fit into, uh, into your sort of work life family situation in terms of, of making something you love your job? So far, it's been really good for me. I think I will burn out at some point in time, but yeah, we make, we make ultralight backpacking, hunting gear, clothing. We just launched a clothing line and it's like, the interesting thing is our, our products actually are used by people, a lot of people outside the hunting world.
[00:48:36] So like backcountry skiers, backpackers use our product all over the world, which has been kind of interesting to see. But, uh, I got into it strictly because I'm really anal about my gear. And so I started designing gear because I felt like the people that were making hunting gear were not doing the type of hunting adventure hunting that I was doing. And they didn't care about the same quality and having just super light compact gear. So I, I started designing like one piece at a time.
[00:49:06] And cause I've always been like a fairly precocious person. I was like, I should start selling this stuff, not thinking that it would ever turn into a business. And then it did. And then I just kept kind of going with that. And it's been really fun, challenging, stressful, all the things, but I genuinely enjoy working for myself. I enjoy having my own company. I work now more than I ever have because I, I enjoy it.
[00:49:32] It doesn't feel like work when I'm working on a Sunday, you know, it's like just kind of because I, I don't mind doing it. My wife works for our company too. So it helps it, it is, it's a family run company. Our kids sometimes get on our case about working too much, which is healthy for them to keep us in check. But also I, you know, at least I tell the story I tell myself, Chris is like, well, they hopefully will understand one day the value of hard work because they see their parents doing it.
[00:50:00] The thing that gets the closest to, I know. I was just thinking, or it could go the other way. And they're just like, God, that seems miserable. I'm not doing that. I know. Their therapist will let them know one day, I'm sure. Okay, cool. So we started out as a adventure filmmaking company. So we started making adventure hunting films and that is really how like the quote unquote the business got started.
[00:50:24] Filming for me is, is the thing that will probably ruin me on marrying my passion with my job. So I'm very aware of that because, and the reason why I would say that is because making a film is just kind of a pain in the ass. You've got people following you around all the time, especially when you're bow hunting, trying to sneak in close on an animal is hard enough when you're by yourself. Now put two people behind you with cameras and it, it can be frustrating because it, it can.
[00:50:52] You have to whisper dialogue too. Whisper dialogue. And then I get, I get a lot of hate mail about why, why I whisper all the time on, on our films. People hate that, man. They really do hate that. Um, and I understand it. I'm like, I trust me, I get it. I don't want to be whispering either, but, um, but yeah, it's, it, it, it gets to be annoying, but the way I balance it is I will only do a certain number of films a year. And then I have what I call my, my free hunts or my personal hunts.
[00:51:21] And so I balance that out by saying like, I'm only going to do three to four a year max. And after that, I'm done. I'm not going to do any more films because there was one year where we tried to do a bunch of quite a few films and we were probably seven or eight days into a hunt. And I was so frustrated with the, how noisy we were being, we were bow hunting. And I was just like, there was an elk bugling. And I just looked at our camera guy and I'm like, I'm going in by myself. And he goes, but I'm not going to get the footage.
[00:51:50] And I said, I don't give a shit at this point in time. I just, you're going to stay here. I'll be back in a while. And I just left. And I was just like, my, my frustration had reached like a fever pitch. And so that was a good moment for me to be like, this could very easily devolve to a place where you're not enjoying yourself anymore. And my general rule of thumb has been as soon as I stop having a good time doing what I'm doing now, I think it's time for me to get out and do something different. But I haven't hit that point yet.
[00:52:18] And I don't think I'm going to get there anytime soon, but who knows, you know, maybe somebody like says something tomorrow that drives me off a ledge and I, who knows? There's an intensity to what you are doing, um, and the way you're doing it and your personality. I think, um, in terms of, of the hunting and the climbing, quite frankly, um, it's interesting in, in the, the film, the run out film, um, chasing big bucks and big walls, which, you
[00:52:48] know, I'll have to call you out on the big wall thing, but we won't go there. But I didn't, I, yeah, I don't know. I know we should parse that out. Cause I was like, no, I was like, our, our marketing team was like chasing and I'm like, we're not, this is not a big wall. They're like, yeah, most people don't understand what a big wall is. I'm like, yeah. Calusa's going to come down on me hardcore. No. Um, anyway, but, but, you know, your wife does appear in the film. It's, it's classic, like a talking head kind of shots.
[00:53:13] Um, but you know, there's an air of frustration in, in what she says a little bit, you know, it's not, it's not hidden that deeply, frankly. Um, and, and it, you know, and it goes back to this time we put in and, you know, we often talk on here about climbing, taking so much time. And if you're really, really into it and you want to be good at it and you want to excel at a certain level, it's like, you know, there is the sacrifice of, you know, it's just opportunity costs.
[00:53:41] Are you going to spend time climbing and spend time doing something else? There is like this cost to it. And you've got this sort of double whammy going on because of the way you hunt these, these big trips. It's you're an expedition hunter, like to put it in climbing turns, you go on expeditions to hunt, you don't just go out, you know, during, you know, the, whatever it is, the one week of elk season that you have a tick tag for, or, or, uh, the one week of, of deer hunting season up there in Minnesota or whatever.
[00:54:06] So, you know, talk a little bit about that juggling of costs and, and your awareness of, of when, you know, you're across the line and things are getting a little touch and go at home or, or in your, in your sort of family life. Man. Uh, oh man. Your wife asked me to ask you this, by the way. She's the one that wrote you. Um, I will, first of all, say that I got really lucky in finding a partner.
[00:54:36] I was doing this stuff when we met. So in some ways I think that she knew what I was like and I'm not, I will freely admit I'm not always the easiest person to be around. I think I'm, um, I'm easy to be around with my friends, but if family it's different, right? It's different when you're on the inside and maybe that's true for a lot of us. And it wasn't as bad before we had kids.
[00:55:00] I remember I got home from a trip one time, a hunting trip and we had a newborn. Oh dude. My wife, who is one of the most understanding, compassionate people you'll ever meet. But she's also like, she's very independent. She's got her own things going on. Like this is not some like trad wife who's just at home and happy to be at home. Like she looks right at me and she goes, I don't know why you thought this was going to be a good idea to be gone this long. And I said, you know what? You're absolutely right.
[00:55:30] I don't know why I thought it was a good idea either. So there have been, we have, I would say like really good communication. If she's pissed, she's going to tell me. But I also now have, uh, I think I, I, I never wanted to get married. Like when I was young, like I never thought marriage was for me. Like I was too selfish with my time to maybe involved in my own life to think that that was something that I should get involved with. Uh, but then I met my wife and like, no joke.
[00:55:58] I went from never wanting to get married to being like three weeks after I met her. I was like, I'm done with dating. Like I'm never, I'm never doing this again. Like I'm out. And that happened really quick for me. So, so part of it is communication. I would say part of it is like, Angie has always understood that this is like, without this, like, I don't, I don't know how I exist in the world. Um, I just don't, I really don't. I've thought about this a lot.
[00:56:26] Like what happens if I can't hunt anymore? What happens if I can't climb anymore? I'll cross that bridge when I get there. But those are scary thoughts in my head. Like those are the things that terrify me. Not because I'm worried about not being able to send my project, but because of the, the mental piece that it brings me, um, and how important it is in my life. But, um, I, I wouldn't say I'm an expert at finding the balance, Chris. I would say it, it's kind of, it's not an even line, that balance it's, it's up and down.
[00:56:55] And if I've gone too far, my wife lets me know. And I've tried to, oh, that was the other thing I was going to say is, so one of the reasons that, uh, I think I struggled with that commitment to like marriage was I don't like the idea of asking permission to do everything in life. I don't know if you have friends like this, but, um, they have to ask permission to do everything. And I always found that, and maybe this is, this is like a naive assumption, but I
[00:57:23] always found that to be like, it's like, ah, I want, you know, we're going to go do, and this is before all my friends had kids, like we're going to do this thing. Like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I just kind of like, I got to ask if I can do that. And I just thought like, that seems like a strange thing to me. Maybe I'm just like too fiercely independent to want to have to ask permission to do anything. The flip side of that. And I think where I've, what I've come to realize is that's a really, that can be a bit of a naive, selfish position to come from.
[00:57:49] It's not so much you're asking permission is you're trying to make sure that like your life is not, um, unfairly impeding on the individuality of your partner in a way that is unfair or not balanced. And so where I've come to now is usually when I'm going to, when I want to do something, uh, my wife never tells me like, don't do that. She's super, she's much more like Jedi mind trick. She'd be like, if you want to do it, go for it. I'm married to a lawyer, dog. Oh, okay.
[00:58:18] I know about this. On steroids. Yeah. So yeah, I, I, I don't know. I, I'd say that like, I make sure I check in with my kids all the time. I'd say it's, it's not so much now at this point in time that it affects my wife as much, but my oldest daughter's 10 and there's a measurable impact on her when I'm gone for too much time.
[00:58:39] And so I really try and limit the, um, I space out my trips more to make sure that in between trips, I spend as much time as I possibly can with my kids. And what does that mean? Like for trying to climb in between those hunts? Well, I get up really early before they're awake and try and do my workout. So when they wake up, I'm there to make them breakfast, take them to school and do all those dad things.
[00:59:06] I have to be like very, very structured and rigid in my schedule to make sure that I can, or try to make sure I'm being the best dad I possibly can. So I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I have it all figured out, Chris, but, uh, I, you know, try and try and find space for all those things. It's an evolving target as we like to say, but I do think we have a pretty good situation going on and it does help that my wife works for our company.
[00:59:32] Cause she understands that like a lot of times when I'm out, it's a, it's marketing content. Right. And that is, you see, that's what I was just, I was actually thinking about that when you were talking about starting the business, I was like, Oh, that's a cool hustle. Oh, honey, I gotta go. I gotta go hunt. I mean, it's what I do for a living. Like it reminds me of my, my, what I call editorial trips where I go to some climbing festival. I'm like, it's, it's a, it's a job, you know, I gotta go do this thing cause I'm a podcaster.
[01:00:00] And then she's like, but aren't you going to like climb and then party all night? I'm like, yeah, but that's part of the job. I'm going to meet people. I know I'm going to land. I'm networking. Yeah. I'm networking. I'm going to be in land. I don't even want to climb a wild iris. I don't, but I will because that's where the climbers I'm interviewing. And I don't want to stay out till 2am, but I'm going to, because that's when the deals go down. But anyway, no, it's, it's, it's, it's funny too, because I have this thing where I call the, the, the yes, that's really a no.
[01:00:29] And you just have to figure out that that's where the feeling comes in and the intuition. And because my wife too is, you know, she's a climber and she's, she's also like very protective of our independence. So she will very reluctantly say no to something that I want to do. Um, but I can feel when the pressure's there and, and then I have to weigh like, well, what is this thing that, and it goes for what she, she wants to do too.
[01:00:56] She, she, or tells me she's going to do something and I'm like, yeah, but you know, or yes, that, that, that, okay. Yeah. You can do that. Like give it the vibe. And then, you know, a lot of times she'll back off in terms of like putting the pressure on our family, my situation too. So, but it's, I just thought it was interesting with you because of these two very time consuming things. And I only really have one. I mean, climbing is just my thing. Um, but that leads me to the question. Is that like, what would give first?
[01:01:26] It seems like climbing would have to give, right? Oh, I don't, I don't, I don't think so, man. Not to like put that thought experience out there. Oh man. I have thought about this. Like if I had to give one up. In fact, my, my daughter asked me this. She's like, you love hunting and climbing. If you had to give one up, which one'd you give up? And I said, I told her, I'm like, neither. And she goes, but you have to, that's the rules. You have to give one up. And I was like, I'm not playing this game, kid. Don't make me choose. So I don't know. I have a 10 year old line of questioning going on right here.
[01:01:56] I know. I know. 10 year old version. I know. I don't know. I honestly don't know the answer to that. I can't, I can't sit here. Like I can't force the words out of my mouth that say I would give up climbing first, but you're, you're probably right. But it's really hard for me to see that future. It's really hard for me to see that. Well, let's talk about longevity. I don't know. Let's turn it into sort of a longevity question. Okay. You know, I've watched my dad age out of many types of hunting, including bow hunting. Yeah.
[01:02:25] Not many people know this, but a lot of places you can get grandfathered into crossbow hunting during bow season. I think Wisconsin just said, fuck it. You guys can bow, you can crossbow hunt during anybody can crossbow hunt during bow season. But a lot of places are in previously, even in Wisconsin, it was, it was like, okay, you can't, you're a certain age. You, you know, you can't pull a bow back or if you can, you, you do it in such a way that scares everything within a mile away because you're struggling.
[01:02:55] Uh, you know, climbing is kind of a similar thing. Do you tone it down? Do you turn it into the, to the crossbow hunting version of climbing where it's like performance isn't such a big thing? Like, um, what, what's, what's like the longevity picture in, in the kind of hunting that you do? Uh, it's, it's not something I can do forever. And I honestly don't know last.
[01:03:20] So one of the hunts that I do most every year involves, uh, like in November backpacking and about 10 to 12 miles, maybe like five to 5,500 vertical feet with winter gear, like heavy packs, and then setting up camp and living for let's call it eight days. And then if you shoot something, you have to pack, you know, meet and camp back down. And it's, it's grueling, grueling.
[01:03:45] I think it was last year, my buddy, Charlie, who I, I do this hunt with, I told him, I'm like, I don't know how many years, more years we can do this. We've been doing this since we were in our twenties. It does feel harder. Um, and I, I try every day to try and stave off, uh, old age and just natural biological degradation of our bodies. But I don't know what that looks like.
[01:04:12] I, my attitude right now is I'm going to keep doing it as long as it feels like something that I'm enjoying. I imagine at some point it will just not be enjoyable because there's too much pain involved. And I think that will be my barometer. The good thing about the nice thing about hunting is that livestock can come into the equation to help you out. So I've hunted with llamas a number of times. I've hunted with horses and mules and they bring their own set of headaches and just have
[01:04:38] the deal with animals like out in the field, you know, feed them water. And it's just a lot of time and effort. Um, but you can dramatically increase your, um, ability to hunt in wild remote country by doing that. And then I don't, honestly, I, I don't know. I'm kind of banking on like Neuralink or something like that, like helping me out until I'm like 90.
[01:04:59] Um, I try not to think about it too much, try and focus on this year, what I'm doing now, enjoying my life, doing the things that interest me. And at some point I'm open to the fact that my interest will change or the type of hunting that I'm interested in could change or the type of climbing I'm interested could change. It has, right?
[01:05:25] I went from mostly loving being in the mountains or, you know, doing desert towers, which I still love to do. I just don't have the time to being a sport climber and a boulder, which is almost, I'm almost ashamed to say that at this point in time, that those are my primary, like 95% of my climbing. Um, that could change. You gotta get over that. Come on. What's that? Like work through it, work through it. I actually really enjoy it. You gotta get over the ground. I'm just, I'm just being facetious. I really actually enjoy it. Uh, I've really come to love bouldering actually.
[01:05:53] The thing that bums me out, Chris, is when I think about how many hunting and climbing seasons, like how many good seasons do I have left? I don't know if this is something you ever thought about. Like. Oh, absolutely. Dude. You're like, how many more do I have left? All the time. Okay. I think I thought about it this morning. I don't know what the answer is, but you're like, I'm just going to keep, keep trying and keep doing it. And one of these years I might feel like, I don't know. I don't know if you're even aware of it. 43 solid though. You're 43? I'm 43.
[01:06:23] Is that what you said? Yeah. I had a great early forties, Doug. Okay. Good. Um, yeah. How about your late forties? You're still in it. I'm knocking on the door. How about your late forties? I'm knocking on the door. Eh, it started to feel it. Yeah. The thing that really starts to, you start to feel is recovery. I've already started to feel that. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it hit, it kind of like X, it goes, it accelerates. I, I, for me, like when I hit 50, like, you know, I'm still climbing about the
[01:06:51] same, but just, you know, the recovery has been much more difficult and or time off is much more, uh, debilitating. You know, you gotta keep your foot on the gas and he let it off for a bit and yeah, you chub out a little bit and you know, things start to happen really fast about like dwindling. But that, that's, that's my experience. But, um, I, I, I was just going to tell you, like, just to confirm that point we did, I
[01:07:17] did a trip to wild Iris last year and I hadn't been to wild Iris in a long, in a while. And the one thing that I noticed is like my ability to do like high volume days of hard, hard climbing for me was not as not where it should be based on how much I climb. And then just the amount of rest days I needed was, uh, it was more than I was used to having previously climbed there a little while, uh, prior. And that was hard for me to come to terms with.
[01:07:46] It's like, I would feel fine. I'd take like one or two days off. I'm like, I feel great. And then you try and pull and you're like, I am not recovered. And yeah, I think part of that is just an age thing. That wild Iris dude is a, I feel like it's a young person's climbing area just cause it's short and vicious. And that's not, that's not my game anymore. And, um, yeah, I mean, I still climb there, but I'm just like, you know, this is like an
[01:08:11] injury waiting to happen in terms of like some four bolt route with like, you know, it's five, you know, whatever, 11, but it's got two monos on it and everything. So anyway, but, um, let me ask you one last thing then. Um, you know, it's kind of like along the line of a climbing question, but for neophytes, um, I would never ask this in, in about climbing on the Enormacast, but I want to ask you about hunting.
[01:08:35] Like, you know, when I did hunt and, um, kill that deer and was kind of, you know, I was trying to connect with my dad and my brothers while I went and did it. Um, cause that, that's, you know, they, they spend a lot more time together than I spend with my dad. Um, so I was like, you know, I'll come along if that's cool with you guys. And they were super psyched. And, and I, and I went down there and I embraced it and I was like, okay, I'm coming here for real. I'm going to like do what they do and, and make sure I don't like embarrass them in front
[01:09:04] of their buddies. And, and cause it was kind of like a, it's like a camp, you know, there's a bunch of people there and they're Texans and, you know, I'm coming from Colorado and my Arc'teryx jacket and shit literally. And, um, you know, so, um, but, and, and afterwards I was kind of like, ah, this is kind of interesting to me. And I knew a couple of my good climbing friends here were, were, um, you know, would get elk tags or deer tags in the fall here and do the hunts and hike way into the mountains.
[01:09:33] And I'd been, you know, alternate alternates on their, their meat hike out call group, you know, that, that people around here have to have. I never got called, but, you know, it was certainly like, yeah, if I'm available, I'll come help you hike some, some, something out. But then I found like, you know, it was a little daunting. Like, you know, I, I can, I can shoot. I'm, I'm actually a really good shot from, you know, unloading like 50,000 BBs as a child,
[01:10:01] you know, yearly, but like it felt really daunting to get into. And then bow hunting is this whole other thing. So if someone was in here, like, man, that's some sounds like something I want in my life. Like, how do you begin late in life? Not late, but like after being a kid, I know a lot of great hunters who like you, they grew up hunting and it was a cultural thing. And if suddenly you are from, you know, Boulder or something like that, and you didn't, and
[01:10:28] you grew up in the suburbs and, and you don't have any idea how to even begin. What's, what's the program? Yeah, it is a really hard. Cause there's no like hunting gym where you can go to, to like find mentors. So a couple of ways. One is if you find somebody in your friend of friend circle who seems like they know what they're doing and is willing to mentor you, that's, that's probably step number, the first place I'd go to.
[01:10:57] Uh, there's a group called backcountry hunters and anglers. I don't know if you're familiar with them, um, or not, but they have a learn to hunt program in a lot of States that is, I don't know if, I don't think, I think it's free. Um, you can sign up to learn there. There are hunting forums where you can look for a mentor, but you need, I think you need somebody to kind of like help you on that journey. But there are a lot of hunters out there who love sharing their passion of hunting.
[01:11:26] I love sharing my passion of hunting the same way. I love sharing my passion of climbing and I don't have a lot of time, but I do try to help new hunters out specifically. I won't take out hunters who just want to find a good hunting spot, but I do make time for kids and other, even an adults who want to get into hunting in my climbing friend circle.
[01:11:52] Um, I tune bows for my adult climbing friends who have gotten into hunting as adults, try and help them out, whether that's like finding spots, gear, whatever, just the whole thing. Right. And I think that there, uh, unfortunately the reality is you, you need to figure out how to connect with somebody who knows what they're doing. But my guess is if you are interested in hunting and you reach out to somebody, I would bet 99%
[01:12:19] of those people, if they're a good human being would be more than willing to mentor you if you're interested in doing it. The truth is, is that like, it was also a time issue for me. And also that like, um, you know, if you're, if you're super into it, then you're also, it's not just out hunting. You're doing the weeks of, of, uh, preliminary work in terms of like, you know, going in and looking and hiking and things like that. And it's in, at least here in Colorado, it's in the fall, at least for big game.
[01:12:49] And, uh, yeah, I was like, oh fuck, but it's the fall. Yeah, I know. Oh, I need to be out rock climbing right now. Not just humping up these mountains looking for, for animals. So, I mean, there was more to it, but I just remember this kind of spark that I did have. And you were talking about this, like, you know, this thing that maybe is in all of us, like I, I felt it to a certain extent, like that was really interesting to, to do and, um, you know, to take the deer and to, you know, and, and we dressed it there and we, you know, and
[01:13:18] I brought it home and I made all this food out of it. And I was like, wow, this is really fucking cool, you know, in its own way. So, um, that was interesting, but also like there are these cultures. And I think that one of the other things, which reminds me of, I got into shooting some years ago, I went to a shooting range with a friend actually in Chicago, um, a little shooting range in Wisconsin. And, and I really enjoyed just shooting targets, which I had grown up doing with, with BB guns and things like that.
[01:13:45] And so, you know, I already had a shotgun from my dad, but I got another rifle and I, and I bought a pistol and I was like really kind of psyched on it. And then when I dropped into kind of like the shooting culture out here, I was like, no, I don't like this. I don't like, this is, these are, this is a little fucking weird for me. Yeah. They're not your people. So I think like finding the right type of person that's doing what you want to do for the reasons you want to do is also probably really important to, to sort of, yeah, to
[01:14:13] get the kind of mentor or the kind of instruction or the kind of, um, attitude that you're, that's going to be compatible for what you want to do. So most of your listeners are climbers. I would assume that a safe assumption. Yeah. I think so. There are more. There's a few that aren't. I hear from them. They're like, I don't know anything about climbing, but I really like your show, which actually makes me feel really good. That is cool. I mean, it's fine. Climbers listen. Of course, climbers listen. Like, but when someone who doesn't climb is like, I really like your show. I'm like, oh, that's so awesome.
[01:14:42] I've met a woman in Squamish like that. I was like, you're, you're, you're cool. I love it. When people who don't hunt, watch our films and say nice things. It makes me feel so much. I don't know why that matters more to me, but probably the same thing for you. Um, there, there are a lot of people as you and I, you and I talked about previously in the climbing world who also hunts like more than you might think. And a lot of them are bow hunters. A lot of them are back country hunters because they, they understand like the parallels between climbing and hunting because they do both.
[01:15:11] So I would say like, if you're a climber, uh, just like keep your ear to the ground. And if you meet somebody and, uh, you know, uh, climbers, you know, socially at the crag might not openly talk about the fact that they're a hunter, but if you ask them, they might, you know, do you know, do you hunt? Do you know anybody that hunts? Like you might be able to find somebody who is into both of those things. And that might be a good way to connect with somebody who might be a better mentor.
[01:15:37] Um, and Chris, for whatever it's worth, like there's, there's the tactical world and then there's the hunting world. They're very different. So I'm not surprised that you're like, I didn't really fit into the tactical world. It's like, yeah, a lot of hunters don't fit into that world very easily. Um, so I would say like, there are a lot of, uh, hunters and climbers that do both. And you can probably find somebody if you look a little bit. Um, and if you live in an urban center, maybe it's a little bit harder to do that, but
[01:16:03] I would wager there's probably, there are a lot of hunters who live in big urban centers and they travel to hunt. If you really want to do it, you'll find, you'll figure it out. You will find somebody that can mentor you. And if you just kind of, if you're not, if you, if you, if you don't really put in that time to find that person, you won't. But if you really want to make it work or you're curious to try it out, like you'll, you'll figure it out. And the last thing I'd say is, um, if you're interested in hunting or bow hunting, there is something about just shooting a bow. You don't have to commit to like killing an animal with a bow, but shooting a bow is,
[01:16:33] a lot of fun and very Zen. One of my, my good buddies, Conrad, um, who is a great rock climber. He started out, he's a videographer by trade. Conrad started going on trips with us and just filming them. Never expressed an interest in hunting, did not grow up hunting. And then one day we were out in the field and he's like, I think I'd like to try hunting. And now he's like fully into it. Right. And he does both things and he just bought a bow and he just had his first kid.
[01:17:00] And it's interesting to me, his Zen time being a brand new dad is right now is going out and shooting his bow. It's not always going to the climbing gym. He'll just go out and shoot for 10 minutes. And like, that's, that's his, like, I'm going to get out and just kind of like clear my mind for a few minutes. And if you shoot a bow, I think you will understand just how, how fun it is and how, um, how much it can clear your mind. Because just like climbing, when you're shooting a bow, you have to just be really locked in and focused.
[01:17:29] And there's something about doing that with your mind that is restorative. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's literally a fundamental part of Zen training. I mean, in, in, in, you know, back for centuries is, is shooting is archery actually. So that's the, I mean, it's not unusual. I did not know that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Oh yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, the, the monks and everybody, yeah. Shooting bows. Um, yeah, I'm surprised you didn't know that.
[01:17:55] It's like a super fundamental thing of, of, of the art of meditation. Yeah. I'm just a simple redneck from Idaho, Chris. I don't know a whole lot. Hardly. All right, folks. Thanks for listening. Was that okay for you? Maybe something you didn't know that much about. Maybe a different perspective.
[01:18:24] Maybe you already had some opinions about it. I have lots of opinions about hunting actually, but I enjoyed the hell out of talking to Brad and I do respect the type of hunting that he is passionate about. And what's more, there's a lot of powerful people who are hunters. And I'm glad to know that at least some of them are passionate about protecting the places that both climbers and hunters recreate. Okay. You can follow Brad on Instagram at Brad A. Brooks.
[01:18:51] Also, our golly official is his business account. And the film that I watched in preparation for this, that really addresses a lot of the issues we talked about is called Run Out, Chasing Giant Bucks and Big Walls, Big Walls, Big Walls, is available on YouTube. And I'm certain if you have more constructive questions for Brad about his world, if you're interested in it,
[01:19:19] if you want any type of hunting information that he might have, I bet you he'll get back to you. So reach out to him. Anyway, folks, I'm here in Wisconsin, far away from climbing opportunities. There are some rocks up here, but there's also humidity and bugs this time of year. Nobody's tromping around the forest climbing right now. Nobody's sane anyway. But the summer started. I can't wait to get back to Colorado, of course. The projects are always burning when you're away on vacation, aren't they? Aren't they climbers?
[01:19:49] Our significant others look at us spacing out with our fingers twitching, and they say, Wait, are you thinking about your project right now? And you have to say, Yes, yes I am. If I just get that thumb catch on that undercling, I think I'll be able to do the move. And of course, before your next red point burn, don't forget to check your knots.
[01:20:27] There are native tribes that say, To capture the spirit of your prey, you have to consume its liver. The trick is finding a spirit worth capturing, I suppose.