Enormocast 307: Amy Alvey and Mark Kilianski of Golden Shoals – Rock Toppers

[00:00:00] You are listening to the Enormocast. So if you listened to our recent episode with climber Sarah Hueniken, you probably heard her say that when she started alpine climbing, basically no women specific alpine gear existed. Just stuff for the dudes that a woman could maybe size down enough to sort of fit good enough. Luckily, as climbing has evolved, so has women's gear and apparel, and no company has pushed that

[00:00:28] forward quite like Arcteryx. The Arcteryx design team, with input from athletes like Sarah, Ashima Shoreshi, and Amity Warm, are not just dedicated to making great clothing, but want to influence how we see women in climbing. Strong. Capable. Equal. The new summer editions from Arcteryx continue that ethos. Women's shorts, pants, and tanks that fit, look great at the crag and beyond, and above all else, perform. But I'm a dude, right? What the hell do I know about women's clothing?

[00:00:58] Well, I know that Sarah, Amity, Ashima, and the rest of the women at Arcteryx wouldn't settle for anything less than gear that inspires them forward and up. And neither should you. So check out the Arcteryx Women's Climbing Line at Arcteryx.com or your local shop. And of course, they make pretty good stuff for us fellas too.

[00:01:27] Hey y'all, it's me, the Yeti Yonder Water Bottle. You remember, two holes, one for fillin' and one for swillin'. Well, over the years, Enormacast has tried to sell you little ol' me, the Yonder Water Bottle. We've also talked up Yeti's flagship, the last-a-lifetime Tundra Cooler. And we might have mentioned the sweet little roadie cooler for those sitting on the bumper posts and cold ones.

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[00:02:47] And happy trails from Yeti, Yonder, and the Enormacast. Listen, where are you playing in town? Are you playing here? We're doing the Enormo dome, whatever it is. It's terrific. Oh yeah, big place outside of town. That's a big place. You sold it out. I'll say, so we really should. Look, you better get up there before you panic. Those pens are loose. You're very good. I have really enjoyed climbing with you. We'll make it.

[00:03:17] I don't think so. But we shall continue with style. Weather. Bad weather. Now or later. Anytime. Today's show is brought to you by La Sportiva. Arcteryx Equipment. And with support from Maxim Ropes. Maxim has been keeping the Enormacast off the deck since 2012.

[00:03:45] And now we can also thank the chill folks at Yeti. And don't forget our charter sponsor, Bonfire Coffee. Go to bonfirecoffee.com and enter Enormo at checkout for a discount on great coffee and to support the Enormacast. And now back to the show. Hello and welcome to the Enormacast. This is your host, Chris Caloose.

[00:04:13] It is 11 p.m. June 18th, 2025 in Colorado. And this is episode 307 of the Enormacast. You know what? I just remembered that I actually said 206 on the last episode on Sarah Hunican's episode. I heard it while I was on vacation. And I've never fixed it. It still says that. And nobody said anything to me about it, which just means you guys skip all this stuff anyhow.

[00:04:42] Right? But I am fairly certain that this is episode 307 of the Enormacast. A conversation with musician climber Amy Alvey and her bandmate Mark Kiliansky. And Amy and Mark have played music together in the duo Golden Shoals, I think for like over a decade. Amy's a fiddle player primarily.

[00:05:07] Mark is a guitar player primarily, although both play many stringed instruments and have toured the world and elsewhere. And they've also toured my studio slash office here in Carbondale, Colorado.

[00:05:21] How this all worked out was that I was fishing around for a final bit, which is a thing we do over at the Runout Podcast, the other podcast, where we feature a climber who does some other audio talent, often music, sometimes poetry, sometimes storytelling. I think the climber, Joel Brady, actually turned me on to Amy. I got in touch. She said, sure, you can use some music. Love the podcast. Been climbing a long time. Been listening a long time.

[00:05:51] And then she told me that they were going to be on tour here in Colorado this spring. And I looked at the tour dates. And sure enough, they were kind of sort of coming by Carbondale. I figured it out that they had a couple days off between Durango and Grand Junction and then back to Ridgeway that they could kind of swing over my direction and spend a couple days here. And they're doing the kind of tour where a bed and a few meals is a nice way to pass the time and save some money.

[00:06:18] So they came over and stayed for a couple nights and played here in my studio. And it's amazing. We got some amazing tracks out of it. I don't know if they'll think that, but I was blown away. I think they're virtually flawless, actually. But that's the kind of band they are. Professionals. They've been playing together a long time. And they're used to just standing up and doing it. So we talk about music. We talk about climbing with Amy. And yeah, it's just one of those ones that I like to do where we cross over between the music and the climbing.

[00:06:48] You might remember Smith Curry's episode that was like that. Alexis Krauss. A few others. I just love that connection because I'm a climber musician myself. But not of the caliber of Amy and Mark by any means. So yeah, I think this is a bit of a palate cleanser. The last one with Sarah was quite heavy. I got a couple more heavy ones in the hopper. So this one is just a total blast. The only thing I have to say about business right now is that I'll be in Lander.

[00:07:17] That's the thing that's coming up next. Don't have much officially to do. But on the opening party on Thursday night, I'm doing some podcast with Ryan Devlin from The Struggle. It's his baby. He's sort of the podcast MC du jour this year. Replacing Chris Hampton, I think, was doing it for the longest time. And I've been up there in that kind of role. But it's Ryan's turn. He's got something going. He wants me to be on stage with him Thursday night.

[00:07:46] Other than that, I'm just going to be hanging out. Hopefully climbing. Hopefully drinking some beers with you guys. So if you see me across the Lander Bar, please come over and say hello. So climbersfest.org is where you get the info. It's coming up second weekend of July. If you know, you know. All right. Let's get to this podcast. It's a blast. We're going to open up with a tune. It's called Rock Topper. It's something that Amy wrote about rock climbing in the style that her and Mark love. And then after that, we'll just get into it. A few more songs.

[00:08:14] Some good talk about inspiration. About the crossover between music and climbing. Music in the outdoors. Music in the natural world. Just a good fun talk. So I hope you enjoy it. Amy Alvey and Mark Kiliansky of Golden Shoals. Oh, but first, let's enjoy a little nature documentary I came across in the archives. Oh, hello.

[00:08:41] We have reached this remote mountain crag in the elusive hope of finding one of the most majestic and fearsome creatures known to climbers. The Sportiva Squama. Now we wait. Aspiring to hear its lonesome and august call. Squama. Ah, what good fortune. The cliff before us abounds with this daunting creature. Often appearing on boulders and crags in pairs.

[00:09:10] The Sportiva Squama is a fierce predator. Known for its diverse hunting skills and sleek movement. Observe as they use tiny edges, dimples, smears, and even the occasional toe or heel hook to close in on their prey, set up, and leap for the kill. Oh my stars, what do we have here? Ah yes, a gentle and beautiful mating pair of vegan squamas.

[00:09:38] Though these gorgeous green-coated creatures are just as nimble as their lethal brethren, the vegan squama remains an herbivore living peacefully among its fellow woodland creatures without harm. And you too can go to sportiva.com or your favorite local climbing shop to observe, hold, and maybe even pet a Sportiva Squama yourself.

[00:10:02] But please be wary, because once released on your local rocks, the Sportiva Squama will run wild and free, just like you.

[00:10:12] From my head down to my shoes, my head down to my shoes.

[00:10:42] I'll say and spend it on some booze, I'll spend it on some booze. I'll sing it out, I'll sing it out, I'll sing it out. I'll sing it out off a mountain for those who want to hear. Never mind that my clothes are dirty and worn. Standing on that rock is my greatest reward.

[00:11:55] Move quickly on my feet.

[00:13:05] I'll sing it out. I'll sing it out, I'll sing it out. I'll sing it out off a mountain for those who want to hear. Never mind that my clothes are dirty and worn. Standing on that rock is my greatest reward. Never mind that my clothes are dirty and worn. Standing on that rock is my greatest reward.

[00:13:32] Amy Alvey. I'm Mark Kilianski. And we're Golden Shoals. So, Amy, tell me about the origins of that song. Well, as you can imagine, that song is about rock climbing. I guess I had been climbing for about five years at that point. But I'm really inspired by old time mountain musicians.

[00:14:02] And, you know, in our songwriting, in my fiddle playing. And there's an old folk singer named Roscoe Holcomb. He was a banjo player from Western Kentucky. And if you ever listen to him, he's got that what they call the original high lonesome sound. In fact, probably some people might not even enjoy it. It's really piercing and high pitched. But he had this really interesting way of phrasing songs and melodies.

[00:14:29] So, I kind of wanted to incorporate that long first note into a song. And I think I was, you know, really, I was on some climbing trip. And I must have been bouldering outside because I was reflecting on, you know, the thing that we're all really drawn to when it comes to bouldering is that, you know, a lot of times we don't succeed and we don't even get close. But that feeling when, you know, you figured out that one little piece of micro beta

[00:14:58] or you like shifted your hips one way and all of a sudden the next move goes. And it's like that feeling of celebration and trying to celebrate the small wins when we can often feel like losing a lot of the time. I wrote it after going to Joe's Valley because, you know, hanging out with climbers and kind of, you know, mentioning the thing about how when people are living out of their cars, it's like everybody's penny pinching, you know,

[00:15:28] like trying to figure out the cheapest thing to buy at the grocery store. You hear stories about Yosemite climbers living off with the free butter packets at the big lodge. But then like somehow when it comes to having a beer at the end of the day, people are always like, oh yeah, like you got to have your beer budget. So that's definitely an element in the song. And yeah. Tell me a little bit about the origin story of this duo and, you know,

[00:15:56] go as deep as you want about that. And Mark, you can pipe in here. Yeah, we met in 2007 or 8 maybe. Berklee College of Music. We were both there. And Amy had been coming from a classical background. And I had been coming from a jazz and rock background. But we kind of discovered this amazing traditional music scene at Berklee and in Boston in general.

[00:16:23] And so we were both kind of getting into it at the same time and beginners in a certain way. And I think we had an unspoken bond because of that. Yeah, totally. You know, feeling like a beginner when you're at a music institution. You know, it's a very prestigious school. But yeah. So, you know, we met at a jam session. We would see each other around. We had a couple classes together.

[00:16:51] And then Mark called me up. He graduated a year before me. And he took jazz composition. I was a violin performance major. And as Mark said, I had pretty much played classical up till getting to Berklee. But like when I was there, that's when I started learning about improvising and hearing different folk music, different fiddle styles. And it just kind of blew my world open. How I thought about the instrument and what I could do with it and how I could express myself.

[00:17:20] But, you know, when I was getting ready to graduate, Mark called me up. He wanted to start this big musician house out in Jamaica Plain. And he recruited me to be one of the roommates. So we were roommates in a big musician house. And he was playing in a duo at the time. And I was actually playing in another band, like a circus rock crazy band. We wore Venetian masks on stage.

[00:17:44] But both of those projects kind of fell apart at the same time for different reasons. And we started playing together casually. And then Mark kind of got this offer for a really great yearly gig. Yeah, I had made some friends on a radio station broadcast. Mark Mandeville and Rayanne Richards. And they're from Massachusetts, Webster, Massachusetts.

[00:18:12] And they had been doing this thing every year called the Massachusetts Walking Tour. Where for like two weeks, they would walk around Massachusetts and play in every town that they hiked through. Playing free community concerts. And like... Carrying everything on their back. Yeah, instruments, tents, food. And I just had told them that I thought that was really cool. And then they called me up several months later. And we're like, hey, do you want to do this?

[00:18:41] I was like, oh my God, yes. And they asked me if there was somebody else that I would want to bring along. And, you know, I knew Amy was tough. And she could, you know, take a trek like that. And we had been playing together. So that was kind of the first gig we had. Yeah. And we did that for eight years. And funny enough, like, I started climbing in 2013. And I basically started climbing right after we got back from that first walking tour. So that was 2013.

[00:19:12] And it's kind of interesting how both the Golden Shoals Project and, you know, my climbing life started when I was 23 years old. Tell me about the, like, just the vibe on this thing. And, I mean, there must be some stories of, like, these guys and gal walking into their town and setting up. And, I mean, was it super prearranged? Or was it a lot of times you're just, like, out in front of the grocery store or something like that?

[00:19:40] All the shows were set up ahead of time. Okay. And often at, like, libraries or parks or things like that. Yeah. Like, Mark and Ryan have their shit together. And they were, and every year they got their shit more together. And eventually we're getting grants and stuff like that. And we were getting paid to do this. We actually did that tour seven times. But definitely, especially that first year was magical. We were in western Massachusetts. And there were just all these characters. There was a guy who called himself Spaghetti Dave.

[00:20:10] And just kept bragging about one time he was in a hot tub with Carole King. And always, you know. That was his party story. Like, that's the one. Oh, yeah. And I'll never forget. Actually, we were playing in Irving, Massachusetts, which is, like, the closest town to Farley's Ledges. For anybody that knows that climbing area. And we were playing in a church. And Spaghetti Dave, he drove a motorcycle. He was, like, you know, being the caravan. He was coming to all of our shows.

[00:20:39] And he just, we were playing in this, like, really small church in Irving. And he just, like, he was in the back. And he had these beers. And during the show, he would just, like, be holding up his beer, you know, just partying the whole time. Haven't seen him since. We don't even know if he's still alive. But, you know, the lore lives on. But, yeah, we definitely met a lot of different characters.

[00:21:02] You know, what was really cool about that as well is that Mark and Rand worked really hard to partner with these trail systems. So not only was, you know, there were a couple of different goals. You know, one of them was just bringing live music to these small towns that don't normally get them. You know, usually it's, like, you're going to have to go to Worcester or Boston to catch a show.

[00:21:28] But, you know, bringing this grassroots music to them playing a free concert that's accessible. That's all ages and all that. But also, they partnered with these trail systems to bring awareness to the local trails that, like, sometimes went into people's backyards. And they didn't even know about it. So just trying to bring more awareness to, like, that first year we basically hiked the entire Massachusetts portion of the New England Trail.

[00:21:56] Which, like, most people didn't even know about. Because it was part of the, what was it called? The Monadnock Trail or the... Yeah, it was kind of like, I think they were bringing different trails together for the first time. Yeah. And, yeah, the Metacomet Monadnock Trail was the Massachusetts portion. And then also, like, we hiked pretty much all of the Bay Circuit Trail. We even did, we did a canoe tour that one time, canoeing down the Connecticut River.

[00:22:24] Because a lady that kind of got involved a few years in, she worked for the Appalachian Mountain Club. And her job at that point was, she was working on building canoe camping sites along the river. And so, like, you know, just kind of getting the Massachusetts walking tour to bring awareness to that project she was working on. It's cool. But, you know, we've also done, of course, beyond that.

[00:22:50] I mean, we both wanted to leave Boston because it was getting really expensive to live there. And so, in 2015, we both broke our leases and I got a camper van because I, you know, I just kind of had this vision of my life that I felt like I could tour.

[00:23:10] And, you know, we could be playing shows throughout the week and, you know, make enough money when you don't have expenses for rent or things like that to then go on a climbing trip for a month at a time. And that's pretty much how I lived my life from 2015 to 2020. Cool. Yeah, let's do a tune. Otherwise, I'm just going to hijack and we'll talk for an hour because that's what I do.

[00:23:46] Intro to tune. Sure. This is for all, like, you know, when you're living on the road and especially as a solo female, which I was at the time. And, you know, you're meeting all these really pretty climber boys and you're making the connections at the climbing spots. And but having the maturity to know whether it's worth actually pursuing something, especially with like I call them the lost boys, you know. It's called Traveling Man.

[00:24:15] One, two, three. Ooo-o-o-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo Ooo-o-o-o-oo-o-oo-oo-oo

[00:24:38] Miles on his truck A bed in the back With his rope And draws in a single Shelf He built himself With his own Two hands We took me Down to the bottom Of the hill Like in no one else For another day Of chasing sun in a foreign land

[00:25:06] He's a traveling man He's a traveling man I think about it when I'm all alone Driving down all country roads And anytime I sleep under the stars Are you in Mexico or California? South Dakota, home on the range Never far from me

[00:26:08] Showing off his cards I keep back and stand my guard Cause he's just looking to have his fun While he still can Cause I've been the cowboy in the rodeo I've been around long enough to know But holding him is like holding sand He's a traveling man He's a traveling man

[00:26:37] I think about it when I'm all alone Driving down all country roads And anytime I sleep under the stars Are you in Mexico or California? South Dakota, home on the range Never far from me

[00:27:33] Miles on his truck He don't Miles on his truck He don't Miles on his truck He don't Miles on his truck I feel like when musicians You know, you get out of high school Or whatever

[00:28:02] You're looking towards the end of high school And you're like Well, I'm good at this And I love it And I'm gonna go to You know, I'm gonna go to school for it But sometimes it's a little I feel like it's a little directionless Because you're an artist And how are you gonna make a living? You're just hoping You know, after that Something happens And you know So let me ask you this Like what were your dreams Entering, you know, Berkeley As far as that was concerned? Because it sounds like it changed You know, and then also

[00:28:33] You know, I tend to think that You know, these climbers And people who are super into that Tend to live very purposely For this thing You know, it's like I'm gonna change my entire life around I'm gonna skip this This and this To do this thing And music can be very much like that Sacrificing, you know Whatever To be To pursue this Art That's really Gonna try to pay the bills And you get this Like, you know Tension there So what was your idea? Like, okay I'm gonna go to Berkeley, Amy

[00:29:03] I'll get a seat in an orchestra Or a symphony somewhere Like, what's my plan? Yeah, I mean That was kind of all I knew As far as like What a job could be for me I Interestingly enough I'd never Had taken private lessons I just had a really great Public school orchestra program And where I grew up In Southern California So, you know I had like I had really good technique For somebody that was Essentially self-taught And I was a great sight reader And I thought

[00:29:32] Yeah, maybe Like Maybe this could be my first step Into being an orchestral player And very quickly realized How behind the curve I was When I got there I mean We I did have to audition To get in And I was accepted And Funny enough I had also Applied to UC Santa Cruz And got in And I was I had planned to go there I like Had my roommate And everything But when I auditioned for Berklee Kind of late And I found out In May That I got in And you know

[00:30:02] I grew up in Orange County It's It's You know Suburban Wasteland You know Especially as like An alt-rock Punk Kid That You know Hated trendy things I just kind of wanted to get Out of California And like Go to a city So When I got there Yeah I was just like Okay I'm gonna have to Practice like Eight hours a day To even begin To catch up And I was feeling

[00:30:31] Disconnected With classical music It just kind of Became clear That like I need I need to figure Something else out And When I was at school A bunch of people In the string department I'd meet these other Fiddle players In my classes And I would You know Met a girl Who's like Oh I play Scottish fiddle That's what she did And it was just It kind of Struck me That like Oh people are Doing something Completely different Like what What does Scottish Fiddle even sound like And what

[00:31:01] Has her Gigging career Looked like And You're like Those are the Cool kids Basically And you know I first heard Old time music There was an Old time music Ensemble At At Berkeley And I Went to go Check it out And everyone Just seemed So happy Like While they were Playing People are Smiling There wasn't Like This competitive Feeling Cause I Was in the Orchestra That first year At Berkeley And it just Felt like Everybody In the

[00:31:31] Violin section Was trying To stand out Well isn't it Literally set up Like that Right The chair Like Yeah Where you are Yeah You've got I mean you're In a pecking order Totally And you're fighting To move up The pecking order Totally Right When like Really The goal Of an orchestra Should be You should be An ensemble sound You know You shouldn't be Trying to stand out But you know 18 19 year old Kids are Gonna react Otherwise But with Old time music It was You know This really Amazing groove People seemed like They were having

[00:32:00] A good time And it also Is not Improvisitory Based Which I had Just gotten Into Improvising Or even like Learning about How to do it When I got To Berkeley So again I felt very Behind the curve With that Whereas You know You had people Like Mark Who had Come into Berkeley Already Having Improvised For years Before that So that was Another thing That drew me To old time Instead of Bluegrass Was that like You know

[00:32:30] It's like With old time You're just Playing the tune And it's Dance music I mean It's basically Like acoustic Trance music If you think About it So yeah That's like I just kind Of went rogue And completely Changed my path And even like Throughout School though I was a Performance major And you know Granted this is 2007 to 2011 So You know It would have Been smart Of me To take Music business Classes

[00:32:59] And like I was really Just focused On the Performance aspect But what Musicians Definitely What I Didn't Realize Is that You have To be able To wear So many Hats As a Professional Musician You have To be able To market Yourself You know Writing your Own music Helpful to Know a bit About recording Because if It's so Useful to Take on Multiple Skills Because then You can Kind of Keep costs Lower And you know The industry Has changed

[00:33:29] So much Even when We've graduated I mean Even if I Did a music Business class Back then A lot of That stuff Would be Like totally Irrelevant At this point You know I mean This is before Instagram Spotify Streaming Totally Napster was Probably Almost around Oh no Napster was Like dead Except from Way back Yeah I can't Remember the Days More like LimeWire Kaza days There was What was The one You weren't In the Dorms Were you No

[00:33:59] There was One in The dorms Where like Everybody In the Dorms Could Share Music With Each Other That Was Really Cool But Yeah I Studied Jazz Composition At Berklee So yeah Definitely Definitely A big Change I really I really Did Enjoy it But By the Time I was Done With my Time there I was Kind of Like Wow I don't Really Actually Want to Be

[00:34:39] You know I was Really Getting Into Songwriting And Just Really Into The Community Of Bluegrass And Old Time Music Yeah I mean I think That's Something That Like The The Social Aspect Of This Music I mean Mark Could Have Had A Career Composing You know For Ten Piece Horn Bands And I mean What We Do Is Pretty Niche But Like That That's Even More Niche And There's Not Really Like You know

[00:35:09] The Closest Thing Would Be Like Going To A Local Jazz Jam But With Jazz Music You know There's Kind of An Access Barrier To It When You Think About It You Kind Of Have To Have This Access To Theory Knowledge And Ear Training And You know Like The deeper And deeper You get Into It But With Acoustic Music With Old Time Music And It's Like Mostly Three Chords You're Learning The melody By ear So Like You know I mean You gotta Train Your ear To be Able To Do That

[00:35:39] But You know People Use Tabs And Some People Do Read Sheet Music But Yeah A lot Of It Is Three Chords You Don't Need Amplification There's Actually A Really Cool Connection With Like Punk Rock Musicians Kids Who Are Punk As A Teenager Then Getting Into Old Time Fiddle You know Because There's A lot Of The Same Ethos You know A lot Of The Same Themes In The Music Yeah Well It's Just Like Super DIY Yeah Super Easy To

[00:36:16] School Or Younger Or Whatever And Like We Were Both Into Metal And And Then I Also Like I Mean We Had This Moment Where We Were On The Same Path Now You're Far More Talented I'm Sure And Then You Took It Much Further But You Know You Get Into The Complicated End Of Metal Guitar And We Identify With Iron Maiden And The Melodic Lines Between The Guitars

[00:36:46] But The Thing That's Interesting About Jazz And What You Said Comparing It To Old Town Is There's A Whole Section Of Jazz Composers And Musicians Who At Least Like Subconsciously Find It Distasteful When Their Music Is Broadly Accepted By Like The Mass Like There's This Whole Part Of Jazz That Wants To Be So Esoteric As To Be You Know You Said An Axis Thing But

[00:37:16] We Need To Make It More Complicated Or Off Not Everybody But There's This Section Of It It's Like You Can See This Thing It's Musician's Music It's Like You're Playing For It Can Be Anyway Yeah But Like Yeah I Didn't I

[00:37:51] For It's Like You're Kind Of Making This Connection Amy And I Or Part Of Why I Had You On The Norma Cast Is The Climber Thing And The And You Brought Out These Songs That

[00:38:16] this geography is a big part of this music, where it comes from, where it was written, whether it's Appalachia-based or Scottish or whatever, the Highlands, all these influences. Talk about the geography of the music. Can you guys talk about that as far as your own connections through the music to A, the natural world, and B, like I said, the geography of a place?

[00:38:42] Yeah. Well, going back to what Amy was talking about with Rock Topper and Roscoe Holcomb as the inspiration in that high, long note that starts it out, that's a trait of mountain music, not only in the Appalachians, but I think around the world, because when you're on top of a mountain, you have this particular reverb that you get back, and if you sing a loud, high note, you're going to get this amazing reverb back toward yourself.

[00:39:12] Well, and there's also, like, just a spinoff of that, I can't remember where exactly it is, but there's a whole tradition of, like, it's somewhere, like, in Eastern Europe, where, like, there's a tradition of singing, it's like men, and they're literally, like, it's very loud, because they're literally projecting and communicating from across mountains, like, hills to each other, you know, if there's five miles, so that's, like, a very interesting tangent, but go on. Yeah, so the music is physically affected by the environment, which is really cool,

[00:39:41] but then also, I mean, it's rural music, you know, and what are you surrounded by, and what are you, what are you, what's your day-to-day life encounters like, you know, yeah, it's the nature. Yeah, working outside and being with your hands, and I mean, and also, like, the difficulties of that life, and, you know, your, your shelter, and your, and your livelihood comes from the earth,

[00:40:07] and, and, yeah, so it's all really connected, and that's why I've, I've actually said it, I've, like, joked or whatever, that, like, bluegrass, or, you know, and I'm a layman, so I just lump it all together, and, like, I know there, that's a very specific thing, and then there's all, I know, you know, I know what you're talking about, but that old-time music and stuff, I've always felt like, and a lot of times, it's, it's like a, it's like a soundtrack of, of climbing in some, in some way, because it's portable, you can sit around a fire, you can do it

[00:40:36] outside, and, you know, now we do have, you know, portable electricity, so people can do DJ sets around the fire now, too, which I've also gone on record as being distasteful, but, but anyhow, but yeah, it's like, it is connected in a way that, that goes deeper than just, like, a climbing thing or whatever. Yeah, I mean, all the festivals we go to, everybody's camping,

[00:41:01] you know, everybody's outside playing acoustic music. Yeah, and it's a, it is a really special thing, I mean, I mostly climb in the southeast, living in Tennessee, so, you know, my, the main crags I go to, Red River Gorge, you know, I guess that's the one with the most robust campground at Miguel's, and it's, I've been playing old-time music now since I was 17. It's a very interesting thing, because I'm from Southern California, you know, there's definitely this kind of, like,

[00:41:31] there was this element when I first started playing of, like, you know, trying to be respectful of, you know, I'm not from Appalachia, and, like, you know, here I am as an outsider coming in, and, like, at what point do I say, like, I'm an old-time musician, because anybody can just say that when, you know, they're actually not, they are not, like, studied in it, or they don't, they don't exhibit the elements that you need to have it sound like old-time music, and, but, you know,

[00:41:59] I feel like I've been doing it long enough, we've been traveling in the South and living in the South long enough that, like, I don't know, it's cool to go to the Red River Gorge, and I do have other friends that are serious about music that climb as well, and we have a jam, and, you know, we're playing tunes from Kentucky, you know, from that area, and, like, I never want it to be, when we have those jam sessions, I always try to be very careful, it's, like, I'm not doing this to, like,

[00:42:27] bring attention to me, or I'm not, like, trying to, like, put on a show, like, I want to be, I make, I check in with everybody around the fire, like, hey, are you cool if we just, like, jam some tunes, like, because, you know, it's taking up sonic space, and obviously people are really cool with it, but, like, people that are coming from Chicago, or traveling from all over the world, they're just, like, oh my god, like, you know, they feel like they're living the true Kentucky experience, because, and, you know, there's also

[00:42:56] something to be said about, like, I mean, Kentucky is a pretty hard-up state, and just, you know, just because you've been to the Red River Gorge, it's, like, there's obviously a lot more social, political stuff going on there, where, you know, you can't, saying, like, going to the Red and hearing Kentucky fiddle music, it's not like you understand Kentucky 100%, but, you know, it's,

[00:43:21] it's just fun to kind of give folks that even more context of, like, you know, where the music comes from, and they're, they're seeing the rhododendron, and, like, it just feels right. I mean, there's no, you know, there's no, uh, lack of deliverance jokes, I'm sure, um, when you're playing the banjo in Kentucky, so, um, there's that too, but, uh, the other thing I want to ask you guys about,

[00:43:46] you know, is that traveling is this huge part of climbing, if you get to this certain, you know, not a certain level of ability, but you, you dip your feet in far enough, then you, you get sick of your local crag, or your local gym these days, and you, and you move along, and it, and I've talked to plenty of climbers, and I've experienced this myself, where the music is this little passport that you can have, and, and I've told a story before of being down in Cochimo, the little village

[00:44:16] that's also called Cochimo, that's outside of the valley, and this is in, in southern Chile, and, you know, there's a guitar on the wall, and I, I'm also, like, I'm the last person to be, like, yeah, let me play that guitar for you guys, but somebody else in our group was, like, Caloos, you play guitar, right, and then, you know, it's, like, the action, it's, like, barely playable, but we get it in tune, and we play a couple tunes, and it, and we were with this, this group, this family didn't speak much English, we were okay with our Spanish,

[00:44:46] and, but then it just became this thing, and they didn't give a shit how bad I was, like, they just thought it was the coolest thing, and I, I think I did, like, a, you know, maybe Folsom Prison Blues or something, I can't even remember, but they were, like, so stoked, and then I've talked to, you know, Nico and Sean, the guys that bring their music all the, all over the place, but they also talk about how it's just, like, this passport, I mean, have you, you guys did that, that walking tour, I mean, that, that really felt like that, but,

[00:45:15] and it sounds like you've done a lot of just, kind of, wandering travel kind of things, Mark, I mean, is that, do you find that as well, like, this music can be this instant sort of bridge, passport to, to meeting people and connecting with people? Yeah, it's, it's, as far as I'm concerned, the best way to make friends, like, when I, when I started playing guitar, I was 13 years old, and I, Me too.

[00:45:41] Yeah, I kind of had this, like, you know, I was starting to go through puberty, and, like, my friends were all assholes, so I just stopped hanging out with all my friends, and I didn't have any friends for a year, and I just played guitar, and then I started playing in bands, and then from then on, my friends have always been, I've always connected through music to friends, and even, I now live in Vancouver, British Columbia,

[00:46:07] because my wife got a job there, and I, I knew one person, and I had only spent one day there before moving there, and three and a half years later, I have so many friends, and such a, such a vibrant community, and especially these days, I think it's, and when you get in your 30s, it's really hard to meet people when you move to a new place, right? But I feel like because, because I have the music, it's been really easy to make friends.

[00:46:34] Yeah, and I mean, everything Mark said, and especially with old-time music, again, it's like, it's a niche thing, old-time and bluegrass, both of those communities, and I, I see a lot of parallels between my old-time music world and the climbing world, because, I mean, for example, I mean, this happened with us, right? It was like,

[00:46:59] we got connected through a mutual friend that's a climber. Come to find out, you actually have never even met Joel in person, but, you know. We're internet friends. Yeah. We're Instagram friends. But, you know, he told you about me, you start following me, and, and like, you know, I was just like, whoa, how, the normal cast is following me. How did you, and, you know, we just were talking, and, and you've, like, when, when we emailed, you opened up your home, like, no questions asked, you know? It's like, there's this, just kind of understanding, because we're in the same

[00:47:29] climbing world, and we, that's very much the same thing. Mark and I have been touring full-time since 2013, but it was 2015 where, you know, we were on the road full-time, and mostly we would play places where we knew somebody. You know, somebody where, like, there's these old-time fiddlers conventions that we go to, where you just camp out and play tunes. You're just jamming,

[00:47:55] and, you know, people come, depending on how big the festival is, there's actually one that's, like, 30 minutes from the New River Gorge. It's called Clifftop, and it's the biggest one, and there's literally 3,000 people from all over the world. So we've been going to that since 2012, and we've met so many people where, like, okay, we've never been to Pittsburgh before, but I met, you know, our friend Chris at Clifftop last year. We had a really fun jam, you know, maybe there were some

[00:48:22] drinks involved, who's to say? But, like, you know, we can find his contact info and say, like, hey, do you know a good venue for us to play? Or maybe there's, like, a local square dance we can get involved with? It's just, like, a really amazing fabric of a small but widespread community. And, I mean, that's essentially how we've been able to tour Canada, the UK, Australia. We last summer

[00:48:50] went to the Netherlands, and, yeah, all through these connections. Nice. Yeah. I started writing this song in Bozeman, Montana. It was on that year we were on the road all the time, and Amy went climbing for a month, and I spent the month farming in Bozeman, Woofing,

[00:49:19] and I'm from New Jersey, so it was just really amazing to be out in the big sky. It was kind of the only thing on my bucket list at that point in my life. And my boss brought me out one day to this beautiful rolling pasture with the rolling hills and the mountains off in the distance and these buffalo just roaming around. You know, where I'm from, it's just, like, squirrels and raccoons.

[00:49:45] So, it just blew my mind. Kind of turned it into a cowboy existentialism song. So, it's called Old Buffalo.

[00:50:13] Look at that old buffalo roaming across the range. He got a long, long way to go, but his ambivalent just the same. He don't read no calendar. He can't tell no time. He don't know the meaning of a dollar and a dime.

[00:50:38] Look at that old coyote stalking his weary prey. You know, if he don't make the kill, then he ain't gonna eat today. His belly is a-rumbling. His legs are shaky and weak. It's mighty hard to catch your meal when you ain't in enough tea. Roll on now. I don't mind rolling slow. Roll on now. He ain't got far to go.

[00:51:19] Look at that old pendlestiff rambling down the track. He got everything he needs in his old gunny sack. He don't mind a lean old time of drinking the coffee cold. He got peace inside his mind and a comfort in his soul. Look at that old Wall Street boy wearing a suit and tie.

[00:51:49] He can buy anything he wants, but he's afraid to die. Money is a mean old hound nipping him at the heels. He's digging himself a deeper grave with every crooked deal. Roll on now. I don't mind rolling slow. Roll on now. He ain't got far to go.

[00:52:36] Rising up at the break of dawn. Sleeping on the ground. Walking in the noonday sun. It's thirteen miles to town. A stranger is a welcome friend. Singing a song so rare. In the land of milk and honey. You know he got enough to share. Roll on now. I don't mind rolling slow. Roll on now. We ain't got far to go. Roll on now. I don't mind rolling slow.

[00:53:20] I've talked about how I find these similar parallels in this. I've done shows with musician climbers, and I like to talk about both worlds. And I find there's these parallels because of this, again, this sort of dedication to it that you have. And if you're going to be a professional musician that's outside of a system like an orchestra or symphony, you know, that has maybe a paycheck and all these things. All the other types of musicianship involves, you know, giving up a lot in your life to try to pursue this thing.

[00:53:50] You know, the story of like, well, I spent my twenties doing it, and then I got married and I had to get a real job, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, you're this focused musician. That's your focus through, I'm sure, much of high school and can't be some sort of part-timey person to get into Berkeley and stuff like that.

[00:54:11] But then at some point you did interrupt it or you did add this aspect of climbing, which all these interviews always talk a little bit about the contrast to the problems. I mean, you know, Alexis Krause, Susan Slaybell, she came on the show and I was just like, what do you mean you were on tour and then you would go climbing? Like when you're on tour, all I ever hear about is like how exhausting it is and how when you're not, especially a band like hers playing late night. Totally, yeah.

[00:54:38] That you're just wrecked until you get to the next gig and stuff, but she's finding time to climb. So tell me about putting climbing into your life and how that happened. Yeah, you know, it is, all things considered, it's kind of an inconvenient hobby because like you said, I mean, as a musician, we wear a bunch of different hats, but just focusing on the, you know, the chops and the technique work that we have to do to keep up, to put on a good show.

[00:55:05] And to even improve beyond that, right? To get better. That's the pursuit. And be able to express yourself. You know, that takes a lot of hard work and dedication. And, you know, especially when you get to a certain level, you put in all this work and it gets harder and harder to see that growth. It's a lot like climbing actually, right?

[00:55:30] By the time you're a V12 boulder, the amount of training you have to get to get to V13, you know, it can take years, years of constant work. Or never. I mean, you can put all the work in and it doesn't happen. Totally. But, you know, it's like why I got into climbing actually was because of a really bad breakup is the short story.

[00:55:56] I was dating somebody who was a musician and like we were all in the same friend group and he started dating my best friend. Well, we broke up and then like it was okay until he started dating my best friend. And that's when I was like, okay, I need it out of this scene. And I had climbed a little bit here and there. Like my first time was at Recreation in Costa Mesa, which we talked about because you used to work there, right? That's right.

[00:56:26] Yeah, yeah. We was like maybe you were the guy belaying us, but I think we missed each other by a few years. Yeah, just a few though. Just like three because you were a little kid at a birthday party. Totally. And I loved it. But, you know, didn't seek it out after that. I just remember having a really good time. Did you know Brad Gobright got introduced to climbing at the Costa Mesa Recreation at a birthday party? I didn't know that, but that doesn't surprise. I know like him and I are from Orange County. Yeah.

[00:56:56] I actually had a mutual friend that's his mom is really close to their family. Him and I actually almost connected a year or so before he died in Vegas. And I ended up bailing and going to Bishop because the weather was looking bad for Vegas, but it's too bad. Anyhow, I interrupted you. No, all good. So anyways, there was a new climbing gym in town that was opening up in Somerville, Massachusetts called Brooklyn Boulders.

[00:57:25] And, you know, I was just basically looking for something, a different scene basically in a way to be physical and work out. I've never, never been a runner. And yeah, I took a hard hat tour. I had the money. I just like bought a year membership on the spot. And I think the thing that really sucked me in. Well, there were a couple things because it was a brand new gym. There were a bunch of people that had never climbed before that were starting to climb.

[00:57:54] So that was like a really awesome supportive community. But then the other thing is that when you're first starting to climb, you can really see your progress from session to session. You know, that V zero that felt impossible. Like, you know, it's like by this, you go climbing again that week and like, I don't know, you're able to do it.

[00:58:15] And like, I got addicted to that feeling of especially when, you know, I'm at the level of playing music where I have to put a lot more work into it. And maybe in the results are not so immediate. That just felt really therapeutic to, you know, visually see progress and marking progress with the grades. But, you know, I've been climbing now for, I guess, 12 years. That's kind of wild to say.

[00:58:45] And when I started touring full time. Yeah, it's like you basically, you know, be on the road for two months. Touring with Mark in the van. And, you know, playing gigs. I'm not buying day passes to gyms or anything like that, you know. I mean, I had kettlebells in the van and I would maintain a pretty good workout regimen and stretch.

[00:59:10] But then, you know, we would break for a month and I would go to Waco Tanks or... And I'm like, you know, fall off the first move of T-bone shuffle like five times. And, you know, it would definitely feel frustrating. The two... I mean, depending on what the goals are. You know, I was younger then. You know, I started climbing at 23.

[00:59:36] But it's been a very interesting process to kind of accept the type of climber I am. I obviously have goals. But, you know, I definitely have had the trips where I had these expectations or I didn't climb like I wanted to. And feeling like I should be at this level because I've been climbing for 10 years. And why have I only sent three 512s?

[01:00:02] And it's like, oh, yeah, there's a big part of my life where I can't train. I can't focus on that. So why would I expect to hold myself to this level of somebody who is going out climbing every weekend? Who's, you know, training at the gym three times a week? So there's been a really beautiful mindset shift that, like, you know, I've had to go through with my climbing.

[01:00:33] And it's also really informed my practice with music. Because, you know, I've definitely have had burnout with practicing and trying to improve at the fiddle or the guitar or songwriting. But, yeah. You know, we got you playing a couple climbing inspired tunes. You know, how does the songwriting work for you?

[01:00:59] Does the travel and the climbing and all the things like, is that your spark for songwriting? Or is it just musing, you know, when you're alone? Or how does it work? Yeah. Well, and I should say, you know, not all my songs are about climbing. You know, there's heartbreak. There's obviously heartbreak. Big theme. That's a good one. Yeah.

[01:01:23] And, you know, I mostly write my songs from direct personal experience. There are songwriters. I mean, Gillian Wells, she's a big inspiration to me. And she's a classic example. She's able to write songs and, like, paint the story. Sure. Storyteller. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's not something. Yeah. And it's not something that happened to her. But she's like, she's able to pull it off.

[01:01:50] And I've written one song like that that's going to be on the new album. And it's, like, it's still something I'm working through. Because I don't want to seem like I'm trying to be something I'm not. You know, it's a very fine line. I think authenticity is just something that's really important to me. But my process for songwriting is probably because of, you know, fiddle being a melodic instrument. I get a melody in my head. And that's the thing that I go off of first.

[01:02:20] It's like there's a melody in my head that I really like. And then I can quickly figure out the guitar chords behind it. Like, or, you know, figure out the options I could do. So I'm workshopping that. And usually when I'm workshopping the melody or those two things together, I'll just sing random words. And more often than not, some, like, whatever those words that I sing kind of help direct what the song is going to be about.

[01:02:51] There have been a few songs that I've written where it's, like, a direct result of something that's happened and it comes out in 10 minutes. And there's actually a single released in 2022 called Treading Water that I wrote The Day of the Insurrection on January 6, 2021. And it's one of my favorite songs. It really was a culmination of me and my mom fighting about COVID misinformation over, like, you know, that past year.

[01:03:21] And the fact that, like, misinformation having these real world consequences that we saw of people storming the Capitol because they think the election was stolen. And, but, you know, it's like, it's a really fraught thing because both sides think that the other ones are totally delusional. So, yeah, there's some political songs for sure. Folk music is inherently political, by the way.

[01:03:49] So, you know, it's always interesting when you get the, just stick to the music, leave politics out of it. It's like, well, you missed the whole point, man. It was said with such conviction that I almost thought it would be. They said it'd be a landslide so it could only be a steal. As a burden, I can't shake.

[01:04:28] So, climbing obviously can be very goal-oriented, at least the way we do it. You know, there's certainly people who, you know, it's just their workout for the week. Or they, you know, it's like, I'm happy because I want to hang out with my friends and climb at the cliff and be outside. There's all these reasons, but for a lot of people that are goal-oriented, and you even said a minute ago that you have goals as a climber. But what about goals as a musician? There's obviously goals of, you know, wanting to play a certain type of music so you're going to have to practice or whatever.

[01:04:58] But then there's professional goals. And those can be amorphous, like, I just want to be famous and get paid to play music. Or is there anything more specific than that in terms of when you think about music? Oh, man. Well, I could talk about this for hours because, like, I think it's, you know, it's good to have some broad goals. But if they're too broad, how can you execute them, right? By saying, like, I want to be a better climber.

[01:05:27] It's like, you know, that's like, that's, it's really good to pare down. Like, what does being a better climber mean to you? Does that mean learning a different discipline? Does that mean, is that like a certain grade? Is that learning how to, like, just big wall systems or, you know, all of them are totally valid. All of them can make you a better climber. So it's like to pare that down.

[01:05:54] So with music, yeah, I mean, I think like a big goal of mine when we were first getting out there after I graduated was, yeah, I want to make my living full time with music. And I'm doing that. But then, you know, it's kind of like now the goal is, you know, always to do better with, you know, the amount that I'm making. Because, you know, I'm 35. Retirement. I would like to retire. It's on my mind.

[01:06:20] And, you know, there, something I've had to work through is that there is nothing wrong with working another job and still doing music. That doesn't make me any less of a musician. But I'm sure professional climbers feel that way, too. It's like if we're putting ourselves out there as a professional musician or climber, like it almost feels like we failed if we got something else going on.

[01:06:48] But, you know, I mean, I have goals with both climbing and music. I think about this, how we only have so long in our lives to be the best that we can be. And, you know, physically, mentally. And, you know, it's like I probably got hopefully more than 10 years. But, you know, it's like it being 35.

[01:07:13] I was like, you know, on average people in their 40s thinks it becomes harder and harder to maintain that. So just trying to be the best player or the best climber that I can be is the broad goal. But it's been so cool as I've kind of nerded out about training for climbing. You know, I listen to a lot of podcasts about it. And it's been great to kind of help structure my practice regimen.

[01:07:40] And, you know, I think when it comes to training for climbing, you have to identify like you have to be really specific. Not even I want to climb 512. But what is even better is like I want to climb that 512. You know, I want to climb too many too many puppies at the Red River Gorge. That's the one. Yeah, it's that left flank. Really awesome. I think it's a 12C. But, you know, it's like, OK, that's the goal.

[01:08:10] Well, figuring out what are the moves of the climb, you know, figuring out, oh, well, it seems to be I actually don't I don't know why I named this climb. I don't know. It's super well, but it's it's pretty crimpy and it's pretty long. But, you know, you just have to like figure out what it's going to take to achieve that goal.

[01:08:30] Figure out what's standing in your way, what your weaknesses are and actually working on them and meeting them head on. Because I've definitely been guilty about this with music. Is that like, you know, you want to stay in your comfort zone. It's it's hard to be a beginner or feel like a beginner at something again.

[01:08:56] And it's interesting because you talk about having been this non improvisational musician. Yeah. And I've met tons of them. And it's always fascinating to me because it's like on paper, they're like a billion times better musician than me. But you like, hey, let's jam even just like not in front of anybody. And they're they like get sweaty. Yeah.

[01:09:19] And even though I'm like, look, if I just show you like here, I'll show you like hit these three notes over and over again in a rhythmic pattern. And it's going to sound cool over these two chords. Like just try it. Yeah. And like it can be like pulling teeth and it's like it's like a comfort zone thing, you know. And it's so I get what you're saying, like from a musician standpoint to like to to quote unquote get better, more versatile can be sucking, you know. Yeah. It also can be scary if you're really good otherwise, you know.

[01:09:50] Yeah. And like, you know, crack climbing is that for me. Like I'm I'm I'm trying to get better at it, though. I mean, just climb more cracks. You can't get better at crack climbing without climbing more cracks. And I can't get better at playing a fast bluegrass B tune. That's like one of my weaknesses. I know exactly what it is. It's like, oh, I kind of suck at playing in the key of B above 115 beats per minute.

[01:10:17] So like being as specific as you can and like, OK, well, I need to be playing in B and I need to you know, I'll start at a slower tempo. Just like if you're really bad at pinches and your limit is V8, you're not going to try and climb a V8 problem with pinches. You're going to get on a V2 and like, you know, kind of build up the foundation. I know I love this stuff.

[01:10:41] And when I teach private lessons with fiddle and I often will talk about how it relates with you lifting weights and and and climbing and just how to structure a regimen, because it can be tough to even know as a beginner, like what to practice to even get to a certain place.

[01:11:04] So that's what I feel like most of the teaching is just like being able to tell them, like, this is what you need to work on. And climbing has really helped with that.

[01:11:41] All right, folks, thanks for listening. And thanks to Amy and Mark for doing that. A free show for everybody, especially me. You guys are welcome back to my house, to Carbondale, to the Western Slope. Anytime. Please come back. They have so much going on right now. They are currently touring Ireland and the UK. They are going to be touring New England coming up. They have festivals all over the place.

[01:12:09] So the best thing to do is to go to goldenshoals.com or, of course, follow them on Instagram at goldenshoals. You can find both Amy and Mark's personal Instagrams there. Get in touch. They might just play in your house, in your office. Get in touch with them. Also, Amy is available for lessons, for side work. She'll pick up her fiddle, her guitar, bring her voice, and play with anybody cool out there.

[01:12:38] She's also looking for climbing partners when she's on tour. So it's a good person to get in touch with. And you can take some lessons and learn how to play Appalachia fiddle. Finally, they're releasing two albums this year. Sort of. They're going to be releasing them digitally, kind of song by song over the next months. So you can follow them at Spotify, Bandcamp, all of the digital streaming platforms. Goldenshoals. Get into it. This is how they become huge.

[01:13:09] It's one listener at a time. And don't just stream it. Buy it. That's what Bandcamp's good for. Can pay them some money for their music. I did. All right, folks. Hope you're having a great summer. It's not technically summer yet, but sure as hell feels like it here in Colorado. See you in Lander. See you around. Keep checking those knots.

[01:13:54] It's pretty hard to sing, but I'll go get a child.