Enormocast 306: Sarah Hueniken – The Aftermath

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[00:04:20] to support the Enormo cast. And now, back to the show. Hello and welcome to the Enormo cast. This is your host, Chris Caloose. It is May 27th, about 9.30 a.m. And this is episode 206 of the Enormo cast. A conversation with Canadian guide and alpinist, Sarah Huenican.

[00:04:45] This is the last one I have that's deep in the vault from last year. I met up with Sarah in Banff on her home turf. Sarah's from Canmore. Another face-to-face interview. Going on a six-episode streak right now with that. And we had a deep and heavy conversation. This was one of those where we discussed what we were going to talk about and Sarah agreed to do that.

[00:05:12] But there was still some consternation and a bit of reluctance. Which is, of course, a tricky place for an interviewer to be. How much do you probe? How much do you push? But yeah, in this one we discuss an accident. A guiding accident that Sarah was involved in. Resulted in a fatality. And the sort of aftermath of that. So yeah, heavy one coming up. But meanwhile, it is summertime almost.

[00:05:43] Technically still spring. But starting to feel very summery here in Colorado. I've got a lot of stuff coming up. I'm very likely going to be at the International Climbers Festival in Lander. What are the dates on that? It's usually the second weekend of July. It's July 10th to the 13th. The whole town is a little hungover from 4th of July. It's always the weekend after 4th of July. 4th of July is kind of nuts up there. From what I've heard.

[00:06:11] Almost went a couple years ago. But decided that kind of mayhem wasn't for us. I was with the family. Anyhow, be up there. Not doing anything official. They are not affiliated with the EnormaCast in any way this year. At least not yet. But I always like to do a little advertising for them. The International Climbers Festival is a blast. It's one of the oldest fests in the country. It's my people's. So check that out. ClimbersFestival.org

[00:06:39] The next thing then is the Arcterics Academy. Going to be up there again. That is August 22nd to the 24th. Up there in Squamish. Went last year under duress. I was hobbling around with a problem in my knee. Hopefully I'll show up with better health and maybe better weather this year. I'm going to be doing two live podcast sessions up there. Which will be announced soon. We're still working out the details of who, when, and where.

[00:07:10] Other than that it'll happen in Squamish. Between the 22nd and the 24th. All that information is at squamish.arctericsacademy.com Check it out. See if there's any clinics left. Or if you just happen to be in town. There's a bunch of free stuff that goes on with that as well. Come hang out. See the podcast. Finally headed up to Banff. Second week of November. Check that out. The 50th anniversary of the Banff Mountain Film Festival. You're going to be up there doing an event.

[00:07:39] Also details to be determined. But tickets for that are on sale. You can check it out at banffcenter.ca And actually there's a couple of the little things that I'm working on. Other appearances. Other places I'm going to be. Out there meeting the Enormo Nation face to face. Getting out of the basement. And out of rifle for a change. Been doing some serious rifle time. It's been lovely out there. It's just so easy you guys. I don't know what your climbing lives look like. But mine.

[00:08:08] I have to get it when I can. Driving out the rifle. Getting out of the car. And basically putting your harness on right there. And getting some pitches done. Is awfully nice. When you have a kid. And a life. And even this job. Is this a job? It is a job. Alright. Let's get to Sarah Hunekin. There is a framing of this interview. That needs to be done. My interest in Sarah. Other than just knowing that she's an awesome ice climber.

[00:08:37] Is the partner of a friend of mine. Will Gad. Is a full blown Canadian guide. I knew all that stuff. But then I saw a film called Not Alone. By Heather Mosher. Which depicts the incident and aftermath. Of an avalanche that hit a guided group. Resulting in a fatality. Sarah's close friend. And Sonia Finletter. Lost her life. In the avalanche. And the accident was of course.

[00:09:07] A very difficult thing for Sarah. To wrap her head and heart around. That film Not Alone. Is a good companion piece to this. Because sort of by design. I did not ask Sarah. To recount the actual incident. And it's well told in that film. Not that you need to know exactly what happened. To understand what we talk about in the interview. I'll also link to a guides report. At a normacast.com on the post.

[00:09:35] If you're interested in the details of the accident. And what was possibly learned from it. And by the time I caught up with Sarah. To actually talk about this film. And this incident happening way back in 2019. She had helped found an organization called Mountain Musk Ox. Which is a support group for climbers and outdoor people. Skiers. Whatever. Anyone really. That is suffering from grief. PTSD.

[00:10:05] Whatever feelings go with accidents that inevitably happen in the mountains. Especially big mountains like up in the Canadian Rockies. Though Mountain Musk Ox has chapters all over Canada. Are looking to open them in the United States. Something like the Grief Fund in a way. If you remember that from the American Alpine Club. And that's a big part of her life now. Part of her process. Of dealing with the trauma of the incident from 2019. And we end up talking about this incident.

[00:10:33] Because it had a very large effect on her life. Her as a person. Her as a professional. As a partner. As a climber. Everything. Still does. And yet. Keep in mind that Sarah is a brilliant climber in her own right. We could have just talked about that. We do get to her climbing. She's been a pioneering woman in the world of dry tooling. Being the first North American woman to climb several of the M's. M11 through 14 I believe.

[00:11:03] Big M's. In there. She's also mentored tons of women climbers. Through guiding. Through friendship. And also mentored women guides. So she's got a full giant resume. Outside of this one thing. That we spent a lot of time talking about. But this one deserves your attention. So I hope you enjoy it. The conversation with Canadian climber and guide Sarah Hunekin.

[00:11:33] Yeah. Sportiva is losing its edge. Losing its edge. The mandala is losing its edge. No edge. No edge. More fun. More fun. The kids are wearing them in France and in London. I was there when Keenan Takahashi tried on the mandala for the first time. I said man that's a heck of a mustache.

[00:12:00] I've heard you have a closet full of every great shoe that Sportiva has ever made. Even a retro pair of megas. The future has no edge. I woke up naked on a crash pad underneath the Peabody's. Only wearing a chalk bag and my mandalas. Did you see me there that day? Because I was there first. I've never been wrong. I used to work in a climbing gym. Optimized performance. Facilitating fluidity.

[00:12:30] Minimal materials. Sticky coated toe box. Supreme corrupt. No edge. More fun. So my first question for you. You live in Canmore. You've lived there for a while. This can be a simple yes or no answer. Am I still a legend in Canmore? You are a legend in Canmore. Okay. For sure. Thank you. Most definitely.

[00:13:01] This is my triumphant return. Although I have not set foot in the city limits during this trip yet. Because, you know, I don't want to like cause any problems for the local police and city managers and things like that. So maybe I'll go down. Maybe I'll go down there in disguise or something like that before the weekend's over. But I appreciate your answer. Thanks for starting off easy. Softball. Yeah. Just lob that one right to you. No, you've lived in Canmore for how long? Yeah.

[00:13:32] 25 years almost. Yeah. And where'd you move there from? Uh, well, I grew up in Niagara, but I kind of worked throughout the States and Canada, different places. Canada for, yeah, ever since after university. Uh-huh. Worked for Outward Bound and Knolls and different, different areas. And I came to Canmore actually right after school from Lakehead University for a winter once. And I didn't know what I was getting myself into at all.

[00:14:00] I just knew I wanted to move to Canmore, you know, like that was the thing kind of. To do. See the mountains and be in the mountains. And I got a job in retail and, oh, I sucked at it so bad. Like it was on commission too. And I just was the worst at that. And then eventually I got a job as a dog sled guide. No offense, but I can't see you as the hard sell. Like. No. Yeah. I couldn't remember a thing about anything and I really didn't care. Uh, yeah.

[00:14:30] But the dog sled guiding was fun, but yeah. Um, then I kind of left Canmore realizing if I want to come back here, I need to like become a guide basically. So I left, did the Outward Bound Knolls thing for a while. Okay. Worked for a university in upstate New York, starting a climbing program. And then I came back to Canmore. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So you had this long term kind of vision of being a guide or being an instructor, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:00] I really, I really did. I don't know what possessed it, but it was, um, it became a goal. Right. Yeah. So, but you don't have like a, I mean, a lot of times with, with that stuff, there was someone in your past that was like, you know, showed you the way, or it was like your instructor. But it was more of maybe a little bit of like, I want to work in the outdoors or. Yeah.

[00:15:24] I mean, I, like I said, I did the Outward Bound thing and did all this paddling courses and dabbled in a bit of, you know, top rope climbing. And then worked for Knowles and became a climbing instructor for them and did some great, like, it was awesome. You know, I loved working for Knowles. So then I just realized that if I wasn't climbing, I wasn't happy. Like, that's what I had to be doing. So it seemed inevitable that I would guide people.

[00:15:50] Um, and it's funny because I always say to people now as an instructor, as a top instructor, um, you know, you can't just love climbing. You have to love sharing climbing with people. But I, I guess I, I loved sharing that with people too. I just didn't know it at the time. Yeah. It's interesting. It worked out.

[00:16:20] There's a lot of people who last a few years because they thought they would be really good at it because they're really good at climbing or they're there. They want to just climb all the time. And that's like the most opposite thing of all time. Cause you, yeah. Cause you just burn out then. Yeah. It's not about what you want to climb that day at all. It shouldn't be anyway. I mean, I suppose you could maneuver your career in that way, but it wouldn't be very productive. I don't think so. Yeah.

[00:16:47] And there's even this blip because I, I got it at the Colorado mountain school and in the early mid nineties to the early two thousands. But, um, at some point during the seventies or early eighties, like John Backer was a guide for fantasy Ridge. And I think it was just like one summer maybe, but like, can you imagine someone like John Backer as a climbing guide? I don't know him personally. I only know of him. Yeah. No of him. Yeah.

[00:17:15] But I just was like, man, like really like you cared about whether some kid could get up a five, six top rope. I guess maybe, I don't know. It just seemed a little bit of a, of a weird fit. But, um, but there was a lot of that where these, these kind of great climbers who didn't have anything else to do to make money just like dropped into some of these guide programs. And I'm always, it always raises my eyebrows as cool as it would have been to have a story about learning to climb from John Backer now. But, um, that was before my time.

[00:17:44] But, um, but yeah, so I mean, that's, again, it's, it was a, seemed like a very conscious choice for you to be, you know, someone who's going to sort of help other people realize what you love about, um, the sport or about climbing or the outdoors in general. Yeah. I mean, I, like I said, ever since university, I pretty much worked outdoors guiding, teaching.

[00:18:09] I just loved being outside with people, watching people be challenged, I would say, or seeing that process that people go through is it's exciting to be part of that. Like, that's a real honor in my mind. And when I came to Cam Ward for my assistant rock guide, I was like, okay, that's what I'll do. I'll be a rock guide. And then I realized, oh, that is literally two and a half months of the year. Right. That sucks.

[00:18:34] You know, and I went to the, the local guiding place and was like, okay, I want to be a rock guide. And they're like, great. We need alpine guides. Yeah, totally. Go back out there. And I was like, oh, I don't like ice climbing. Go to Colorado. Sorry. Yeah. Um, cause I was a rock guide purely. I mean, I, once in a while they, I assisted on some snowy thing. I never worked in the winter or never guided an ice climb per se or anything like that. Even though I was an ice climber at the time.

[00:19:03] But yeah, I mean that, I was going to ask you about that, about that switch. And, and I mean, it's obvious to me why someone would, would switch, move up here and kind of force themselves or whatever to become an ice climber. But I mean, was it an easy transition? Or were you like a hot shot rock climber or pretty good rock climber? What was, what was your. I've always been average. I've always been average. I would say at things. So no hot shot there.

[00:19:31] I just loved climbing and learning to ice climb. Yeah. It wasn't natural. It wasn't something I embraced right away or thought was amazing at all. I thought it was pretty stupid actually. I'm like, okay, you can swing anywhere, kick anywhere. I don't really understand this. Jugs, you're holding on to jugs. Like what's the big deal? Yeah, it's cold all the time. Right. Well, yeah. And you know, I'm not trying to sound ancient, but back then women had a lot less, you know, gear options, clothing options.

[00:19:59] So, you know, you're wearing a lot of hand-me-down oversized things that just aren't comfortable out there. Yeah. I never thought of that. Yeah. It's evolved so much. Right. And you know, there's still a lot of women right now. They're like, there's no boots my size. And I think that sucks for sure. But at least you've got a really nice puffy, you know, like that's awesome. That doesn't leave a bunch of space. And gloves that fit and pants that fit. Around your waist and stuff. Yeah. And you know, bras that are quick drying and things like this, you know, it's just more, it's way more conscious.

[00:20:29] It's just effort now to dress for women out there. Right. And who was in the scene then? Like, I mean, Margot would have been around or maybe, or like, were you entering into, you know, where you knew the two other like hardcore lady ice climbers or was there a scene? Well, I think Kim Shismazia was up there. Of course. For sure. But by the time I came into Cam Moore, she wasn't really ice climbing anymore.

[00:20:58] At the time I met Karen McNeil and that we definitely played around, but it was mostly the women that I was in the guiding stream with like Lila, Jen. What's some last names? Sorry. Oh, Lila Molnar and Jen Wilson. And then a lot of guys, you know? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And that's like 1999 or 98. I mean, 25 years ago. Was it? Maybe I haven't been here 25 years.

[00:21:29] Maybe it was 2022 or something. So maybe I've been here. But 2002. Yeah. 20, 2002. Right. Yeah. But anyway. Something like that. Yeah. Early 2000. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Not quite. I mean, it's okay. We aren't. There's. No, I just always say 25 years, but maybe I've just been climbing. How old am I? Yeah. I'm climbing at least 25 years, but I guess I haven't been in Cam Moore entirely 25 years yet. Yeah. There's some Cam Moore local that's like, yeah, she's still a newbie. Exactly.

[00:21:59] She just got here. True. Yep. That's interesting because that was during my reign. Anyways. You know, the thing, the joke in there is that I actually was hardly ever in Cam Moore because I was, I was camped in the ghost river by myself most of the time. Anyway. Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a, you know, the evolution of women and guiding women in these Alpine pursuits.

[00:22:28] I mean, you've, you've sort of lived the acceleration of it all, um, in the last 25 years. Um, and especially my need even in the last decade, I think it's probably grown a lot. Um, I mean, do you feel like you've had a, a sort of guiding part of that as far as someone who was, you know, not super early, but you know, was that something that was on your mind or are you just in the scene and climbing and it, it was what it was? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:57] No, I mean, I, I wasn't, I don't see myself as someone that pushed ice climbing in my generation whatsoever. It, it had already been established and I was along for the ride. I'd say with, you know, with mixed climbing, maybe I. Okay. Yeah. I'm, I'm kind of lumping them because I was, I was about to remind you that you were the

[00:23:23] first woman to climb M14, but you know, North American woman, North American woman. Yeah. Um, anyway, so yeah, it seems as though maybe you're a little humbled to the, to a fault. No offense, because I mean, I think there's a lot of women who picked up ice tools directly because of you, because you instructed them. Um, and probably also by and large, because they knew about what you were doing and who you were, um, you don't agree with that. No, I mean, for sure.

[00:23:53] I think as a female, I've sought out other females to, um, learn from. So as a female guide, I, I, I can see how I provided that opportunity to like have a role model or someone to see that they're doing it. So they, they can also do it in that sense for sure. Okay, good. All right. We're, we're seeing eye to eye again. Okay. I don't want to have to argue with you. No, please don't. I'll win. About your influence. I'll win. Don't worry.

[00:24:25] I love it though. That's good. I mean, you know, you live in this place, um, with this history of like, don't spray about yourself. Just go into the mountains and do what you have to do. And I mean, I think that North American alpinism, it traditionally was brought with that kind of thing. So it's, it's, you know, I, I realize spraying about yourself is probably not your first choice. Um, so I'm going to do it for you. Um, okay.

[00:24:55] Nothing to spray about. So let me ask you that. Like you just said that you converted, you know, by geography, basically an opportunity to doing alpine climbing and doing ice climbing. Uh, but I mean, now it's like, that's essence of your climbing, I think. And, and, you know, so you finally converted and started to enjoy it, even though there are those, those vagaries that we spoke of.

[00:25:22] Um, and then it's like, it becomes a fabric of who you are as a climber. Like, tell me why, tell me what that process was like to truly fall in love with that end of the sport. I mean, I guess here in Camorre, you have almost eight months of winter, really. It's a long season and we have so many ice climbs and mixed climbs and opportunities here.

[00:25:49] And it doesn't matter how many times you do the same climb. It's different every day. That's the cool thing about ice climbing. It's different every year. Then it's different throughout the year. It's just always a different experience. It's not the same as a rock climb where you can practically memorize the moves of it. So I think I just really enjoyed every moment going out ice climbing, like with whoever I was with that day, didn't matter what I was climbing. I just liked the movement of it.

[00:26:17] I liked the sharing that with someone who wasn't sure if they could do it or not, or it was newer to them, or they were excited to buy it. Yeah. Every day I could be outside with someone doing something cool, doing an activity I loved. I don't know. There didn't seem like anything better than that, really. And if I wasn't guiding, then on my days off, I'd usually try to find something maybe a bit

[00:26:45] more exciting for myself to push myself on. But I think ice climbing is just like, there's so much exploratory nature of it. You know, you're not sure if the climb is in or what it's going to be like, and you never know until you're there. And you don't even know when you're in that moment, like what your next tool will be like or what your next movement will be like. So it's quite an exciting sport, really. It doesn't matter what you're on.

[00:27:15] Yeah. Yeah. Well, what about choosing, you know, you mentioned, you just said like when I wasn't guiding, I would go out and find something challenging for myself. I mean, was that just kind of a natural process? I mean, how did you, I mean, how did you gain the confidence that you could have these somewhat lofty goals in terms of, of, you know, pushing mixed climbing, which was basically invented over your arc, not by you, obviously, but like, you know, 25 years ago,

[00:27:44] even mixed climbing meant you scratched some rock underneath the ice, or maybe you stemmed out on some, some rock, or you put some rock gear in while you're ice climbing. And this, this whole thing has been created in, I think the last two or three decades, these purely, you know, rock climbs done with ice tools. I mean, so talk about your, your kind of evolution as your own climber.

[00:28:09] Cause we keep, we keep talking about the guiding, but, um, you know, just slowly gaining confidence, having other people have confidence in you to tackle harder things. Honestly, if I reflect back, there was never a time that I was super confident in anything. Like even while I'm on an ice climb, whatever it is, there's, there's really rarely this moment

[00:28:35] of like, ah, I totally have this under control and I'm just, um, this is perfect. Right. Like I'm, I'm always concerned. I'm always doubting that's just who I am. So let me just start with that. It's not like, oh, I'll just build off this block of like being really confident ice climber. Now I'm going to move to the next thing. It's not like that. It was more that, you know, let's try this mixed climbing thing. This is a bit more physically challenging.

[00:29:02] That's exciting because you can only ice climbing is only so physically challenging. As we know, it doesn't get massively overhanging normally. So if you want to have more physical challenge, you need to go mixed climbing. So that was the next obvious step. And once I realized that like the steeper it gets, the safer it is in some ways. I loved it even more. I'm like, great, this is safe. The only thing is it's scary, but it's not scary because it's dangerous.

[00:29:31] It's just scary because, you know, you could fall and you don't know what your tools on maybe or something like that. But really it's probably the safest form of winter climbing. You could have is overhanging mixed climbing. So that was a big attractive part for me. And then, I don't know, it just one of those things. Once you learn to hang on to your tools, it's not all that hard. I think that's what people don't understand.

[00:29:58] It's like, why aren't there more people doing just this? You know, like you just hang on your tools and it's the same hold over and over again. You just got to get to the next spot. So I just, yeah, it just became a natural thing to just see, oh, well, what's the next harder thing to try? Right. And again, what I loved about it was it felt scary to me, but it also logically was quite safe.

[00:30:28] Right. So that made sense to me. Like, I mean, I think as climbers, there's a part of us that are drawn to like that feeling of discomfort and uncertainty. I know I am, but I don't like it in an environment that I don't have control of. Like, I like it when it's just about my own abilities and not about some bigger, greater hazard that I don't control. If that makes sense. Yeah, certainly.

[00:30:58] Yeah. I mean, were you ever attracted to the dicey, you fall or never fall, like don't let a fall happen kind of side of the sport? That was kind of like part of this. I mean, part of everybody had this revelation, right? Because also in the evolution of mixed climbing, mixed climbing at first, the more rock you're

[00:31:25] on, usually the sketchier it was, because a lot of times, especially up here, I mean, the rock's compact and if you're trying to put gear in, it doesn't work, you know? So like everyone had the same realization, but did you ever dabble in that world of like, you know, sketchy, run it out? No, I don't think so. I mean, I think I found myself in situations like that on hard ice, you know, where you know that none of that shit you just put in. Yeah, it's worthless and you got to go for it here for.

[00:31:55] Quite a ways and that sort of thing. But reflecting on those days never made me feel like awesome, actually. I mean, I do recall actually climbing Rainbow Serpent in The Ghost and it was a super skinny pillar and it was cracked at the top. And I saw that, you know, I saw the crack from a mile away and I hummed and hawed and kind of got on it, got off it, got on it, got off of it.

[00:32:22] And finally, I was like, kind of committed to a full body length and I'm like, okay, I think I'm okay here. And just kept going until I got over the crack and climbed it. And then two days later, it was gone. Like, it had fallen down. Like, in some ways, it's just stupid, right? Like, I think all ice climbers have probably experienced something like that where you just got lucky. You can say, oh, well, I knew that day. It was a good day. Like, I could feel it. It was all good.

[00:32:52] But let's face it, it could have went the other way. Right. So that doesn't really appeal to me so much. Yeah. I mean, our whole history of climbing is like either celebrating that or, you know, calling you a dumbass. Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, in really like, or like celebrating it or something horrible happens, you know? Oh, yeah, exactly.

[00:33:19] And it's like the threading of the needle, but we are, the needle goes directly. I mean, the different needle goes all the way one way or the other, you know? But you were like, no, that wasn't thrilling to me or I don't feel like a hero. It was at the time. And I think I'm sure I was kind of, you know, psyched on it. But looking back, I really see that just, I think there's like, for sure, like all climbers,

[00:33:49] you get something in your brain that you kind of really want to see through. And yeah, that can be a dangerous time. Like when you really want to achieve something, then you don't maybe make the decisions based on the facts. You make it based on what you want it to be. Right. Right? Yeah. So that's probably, doesn't have a lot of longevity, right? Uh-huh.

[00:34:15] What was your sort of interest or knowledge of like the history of what had gone on in the Rockies as far as like alpine and ice climbing was concerned? Minimal, I'll be honest. Yeah. I've never been a big history buff. Like I have a ton of admiration for those who I actually personally know or more so than, I guess, just reading about someone from a distance or not knowing them.

[00:34:43] I think I'd prefer to actually know them and then I'm interested in what they've done more so than the other way. Yeah. But I do kind of wish I was more interested in history of things because it's something to celebrate, right? And that's what we all kind of piggyback on. So I feel a little badly about that, that I am not a history buff. Well, I asked the question because I kind of was curious in the terms of like, yeah, it's

[00:35:11] obviously we're all like, you should know the history of who came before, but it's also baggage. And I think that it's baggage that at times was probably counter to this movement of bolted, steep, you know, mixed climbing. Just the way the history of trad climbing was, was against the bolted, steep sport climbing. So maybe it's, you know, I was thinking like, maybe it's good when you're just, you have

[00:35:38] some inkling of it, but you're not steeped in it to move forward and let yourself move forward in the sport. Yeah. That's an interesting way to look at it. Cause even now, I mean, climbing ethics change all the time and there's a lot of opinions about a lot of different things. And you stay out of it or do you have your opinions? Well, everyone has an opinion, but I, I think I'm not super vocal about it because there's no point mostly. It's kind of like politics, right?

[00:36:07] This is only, you don't control other people's opinions. So you don't stay up all night on Instagram or on Facebook, like battling ethical debates. No, you don't seem like the type. Um, you know, it's like looking at your history, you get locked into being in Cammore, being, you know, a local climber, a local guide, but also doing the occasional expedition or trip. Your guidance cook along.

[00:36:35] You, you are actually, you, you kind of arrive at a place where you're, you know, you're one of the sort of revered and even administratively like senior members of the guiding community here. Like someone who's instructing, who's, who's, um, an examiner, all these sorts of things. But then, you know, you have this incident in 2019, a guide, an incident where you're, you're doing a class and, and, and people are sort of split up on several falls and there's an avalanche that buries two people.

[00:37:05] I believe, um, you're just shaking your head. This is good. Um, you don't have to correct me. Um, and one person doesn't survive. Um, it's Sonia Finlitter, who's kind of half professional there. And maybe you can explain that, but, um, there's a film that's out that I think would be a good companion piece because I don't want to sit here and have you recount the whole thing. Um, I think that would be, uh, just not helpful, but it would be a great watch for people that listen to this. It's called Not Alone. It's, it's pretty heavy.

[00:37:33] And I do want to ask about that film a bit. Um, but yeah, it, it, it, whatever the metaphor you want to say, it pulled the rug out from your life at that moment. Um, this top guide, this someone who's confident in their, in their guiding and everything else. Um, and there's this long recovery period, which is interesting because, um, you know, we're five years out almost. Oh yeah. More than, cause it would have been, it was March, right?

[00:38:03] Yeah. So we're more than five years out. Um, but it's obviously still looms over what you're doing with your life today. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about that recovery period because we can, we can guess the way you felt in the moment, terrified and overwhelmed and, um, immediately afterwards. Cause we've dealt with this stuff on, on the podcast before, but talk about like what

[00:38:31] that did to your confidence as a guide a little bit. And, and let's talk about how you have arrived here where you're, you're able to sit and talk about it. And I know this is difficult and we knew this was going to be difficult, but, um, it's something that you're actually seem to be trying to embrace this idea of confronting it and helping other, other people learn from it. Yeah, for sure. I think, I think I want to talk about it. Like it is one of those things where now you're here. Yeah.

[00:39:00] Where I, I think I want to talk about it because I want, I guess my ultimate goal in life is just to be able to relate to other people and have them relate to me. And so this is, this whole experience is yeah. Now, not just a part of me, it's like a huge part of me. I think leading up to that day, like you said, yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:25] You know, all my eggs were in this basket of climbing and guiding and feeling like, yeah, I was on this, I was right where I wanted to be, you know? And I've was, had a super fortunate career up to that point where I had no significant near misses, let alone rescues anything. And not to say that you should by then, but yeah, I felt quite good about that.

[00:39:55] So maybe I had, I had an overconfidence. I don't know, but I don't feel like that camp in particular, the guides or myself did anything differently than we normally do. Um, but we had the worst possible outcome. And so when something like that happens, it just, yeah, you, it just puts you ground zero or below it.

[00:40:23] Actually, it puts you well below it. And it's not something that you, um, that I even wanted to really like recover from, to be quite honest. Like I, there was a long period of self-loathing and, um, I don't know how else to put it. Just not feeling like I deserved to kind of recover or get back out there.

[00:40:49] So now to kind of look back at that, seeing where I am today, I, you know, it's been worth the journey for sure to get back to where I am now, which is still not the same person I was then. I'll never be that person again. And I probably don't want to be anyway. I want to be who I am now. Like I've learned a lot and I've changed from it and I have a different trajectory.

[00:41:17] It's changed things in my life where I want to put my energy. And, um, I'm actually quite proud of what I've, you know, where I've focused my energy since then, I'd say. Feel good. Yeah. I mean, it's like, again, it, it, it sort of like loomed in the lead up to this conversation and it's such this pivotal, I mean, it's going to be the pivotal thing in your life.

[00:41:47] Um, forever. I hope there's nothing that changes you that much again. So you, you had been climbing in Canmore for however many years at that point, 17, 18, whatever. Obviously you had encountered, um, accidents and not personally maybe, but I mean, people died that, you know, it's, it's, we, I just did another podcast where we talked about it

[00:42:13] and it's like, if you're in a certain type of climbing, it's just, just this uncomfortable inevitability that you'll be around it. Um, this one was different. Tell me how you sort of thought about that before this. Like when, you know, there was certainly probably memorials and, and things that, um, or friends of friends or whatever. Like how, how did you sort of like process it before this? Do you think? Hmm.

[00:42:42] I mean, first of all, yeah. I remember that there'd be a couple, it seemed like things would go in these spurts. It'd be like, you know, four years, nothing. And then the fifth year you'd lose four friends. Like I remember that happening very distinctly and, um, yeah, it's devastating and you mourn and grieve and you question and all of those things you go through this process, but then

[00:43:10] you also realize life is short and there's this passion that you love and it's giving you so much life and, and that is worth pursuing still. Right. And I think I've always been very aware of the hazards of the mountains. Like I'm very, ironically, very, very scared ice climber in terms of avalanche hazard.

[00:43:35] Like I've climbed nothing on the Stanley head wall as much as a mixed climber would love to go there. I've always just been so afraid of the hazards there. I haven't climbed polar circus. Um, these climbs that, you know, someone climbs maybe their very first year of ice climbing, but I've just never pursued them because of the hazard. So, um, this was somehow different for me for two reasons.

[00:44:03] One, because it really did surprise me and it really made me then feel like, uh, I, I don't know what I'm doing. Right. You'd have no control. Yeah. And you had like, I mean, you have to give yourself this at least feeling that you, your decisions matter and you are able to kind of like walk the line. That's just, you can't go into the mountains if you don't have that feeling. And you did. I mean, you had the experience to make, you know, percentage choices.

[00:44:33] Even, even the choices leading up to that, like the guides that I chose for that climb, like one, you know, and B had, had probably climbed more in field than anyone I know. And then the other guide, you know, young dad has kids at home and a wife. Like I know they're, everyone's really conservative. Right. So like stack that, those odds in my favor too, that whatever the choices they make that

[00:44:59] day they're making because they all want to go home. Right. It's not like some, uh, yeah. Yeah. Who, whatever just wants to climb ice. Yeah. That's like, I don't care. So yeah, I don't know. It just, I think that when you experience something where you really don't control the situation or you, it, it felt like nothing is in control anymore. It can lead you down two paths.

[00:45:28] One where you're afraid of everything because you don't control anything or well, if you don't control anything, then that's freeing too. You could look at it both ways, but I went down the path. Like I couldn't control anything. I'm out. I'm done. Like, yeah. But your business was to control at least part of things. I mean, that's, that's what your business was. And then there was a, you were in charge.

[00:45:55] I ran that camp, but the way ice guiding works is you hire people to take your clients out every day. So I personally didn't feel in charge of those groups on Massey's. I felt in charge of my group on Guinness that day. Okay. But I care about those, those groups on all the climbs and I care about those guides and those people.

[00:46:22] And in the end, it doesn't matter if I am fully responsible, partially responsible, whatever responsibility I have, I'm there. And I thought it was going to be a good day and it wasn't. So I'm going to own that part of that and it's mine to own. Right.

[00:46:46] And it was like, uh, I mean, you just went inside, didn't come back out both kind of in your mind. And like, didn't you literally stay inside for several months? Yeah. I was just really afraid. I, I, I was afraid for a couple of reasons. One because I, um, yeah, just had a horribly traumatic event, lost my really close friend and that's all very scary.

[00:47:16] And then I was also socially very, very scared. Um, because of some of the things that were coming out towards me as well as my own voice towards me, that that's all I could hear. So really hard to, to feel safe with people then, you know, just nobody felt safe other

[00:47:46] than my family really. And I had a lot of amazing support and people wanting to be there for me, but you can't hear that when, when, um, when you just want to hear bad things, basically. I think I just wanted to hear bad things towards my, towards my. Right. Confirm your bias. Yeah. That you had failed in that, that, yeah. And therefore you were a terrible guide and whatever. Yeah.

[00:48:13] So what, what, what kind of broke that in terms of like starting to hear the voices that said that life isn't going to be dangerous and you do have some control and people have either moved on or those voices you're hearing aren't real about all those sorts of things. I mean, what do you remember? You know, it's like in a movie that, you know, it's like you'd, you'd have seen a blossoming

[00:48:43] flower and like whatever. And it's, that's bullshit. So what, what happened? Because you, you didn't just come out of the house. You sort of charged out in a sense. It's, it seems like. Yeah. No, I don't know about that. I mean, probably no one out there really knows. Like, unless you went through my phone of like screenshots.

[00:49:08] How much abuse and harassment I actually received. Okay. Very directed by a couple of people. And I rolled around in that man, like, like a pig and shit. I'll be honest. Like, and it was a, it was probably a very, you know, dirty dance between, between us there

[00:49:36] where we're, where I was kind of getting exactly what I wanted to be told in some ways. And I would, but I had to go to that place, like to be in that place, to be fully immersed in this day and my self hate of it for as long as I could so that there was no way I would wake up one morning and be surprised by it.

[00:50:07] Like, I made a point of that. Like, even if like for five minutes in the first year or whatever, I went to a happy place, I'd remind myself. Oh. Like, I would not let myself escape from it. Right. To the point of like driving people crazy, probably driving myself crazy. Right. But I was so afraid of, yeah, being one of those people that shoved something away.

[00:50:34] And then a couple of years later, I remembered and I couldn't live with it. Like, I wanted to be sure that I could live with, with that day. And so I went, like, I dug as deep as I could through as many things as I could learn as much as I could to, to really feel like I understood what happened as much as I could. And then, then I could finally accept, like, accept it.

[00:51:04] But it, it really did take being down in the ship for as long as I, as long as I could for letting myself kind of see, see the light a bit again. Honestly. One thing I, I, because it's other people's private lives. Um, so maybe you could do just a basic comment on it, but how about the other guides? What was their path like that you know of?

[00:51:33] You know, I, I don't fully know. Okay. And I think it was different than mine. Right. And I think it did become my accident. And I think I used those words. Right. And I think I put myself there because of how I felt. And I do look back at that with some regret because I know that from six in the morning

[00:52:01] till whenever it happened, I wasn't in control of that day. Right. But I also have zero judgment, anger, whatever, towards the guides of that day. Cause I know they did their best and they were doing what they felt was a good safe day. So there was never any point in saying, it's not my, you know, like in, in having that sort of like tug of war with it, in my mind, we were all in it together.

[00:52:27] But then at some point I became the biggest target and, um, that's just how it was. So, and I, I think I, I perpetuated that in my own, well, my own love for Sonia and my own disgust with myself that it happened. Did you, in this period, like, I mean, you were with Will, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, did you lose friends?

[00:52:56] I mean, were people like, I mean, how, how many, yeah, I guess I'm just wondering, like, there, there's this nice feeling that you had family and you had a partner and, and to, to support you, but it's a lot to ask. I mean, not lose friends in the sense like, oh, you know, I'm on that side or this side, but like, man, I, I, I just, I need to move on with my family than supporting this person

[00:53:24] who's, who's this down and this dark at this moment. Yeah. Well, I just stopped climbing. So. Oh, right. I think people could just kind of go on with their life and do their thing. I don't think I, I don't think I necessarily, well, I don't hope I didn't pull anyone else down too much. Like, I think it was really hard on Will for sure. Yeah. And. Oh, geez. Um, the kids probably didn't understand what was going on, but outside of that, I think

[00:53:51] I stayed pretty, yeah, isolated. Right. Until I felt like I could go back out with more. Yeah. With more of myself again. Mm-hmm. And then there's, there's some friends though, that just like, you know, those who are in that not alone film, like John and Scott, who came out to help me with that, or my friend Tiffany, like people wanted to see, you know, they, they wanted to see me.

[00:54:22] I hate the word heal and recover and all that stuff, but just like, um, see the full picture again. Right. They wanted to, they wanted me to see that. We, I interviewed a woman who took this horrible fall in, in the Black Canyon recently. I interviewed her recently. It was, it was last year only actually, but in this, this incredibly giant rescue ensued and, and, um, and she also like, she actually was in a coma and then came out and had no

[00:54:51] memory and had to actually go online to find out what had happened to her because she didn't remember a thing before the climb. And then the, you know, she talked a little bit about the criticism of like people wanting to pick it apart. And it's just like, it's fascinating to me because on one hand we, we all agree that when you're in the mountains, there's these things that can happen. Like everybody will say that, you know, with sort of this like confidence of wisdom of like, yeah, it's always a game.

[00:55:20] It's always rolling the dice. And then when it happens, it's like, they forget that perspective completely. Because I, what happened to this woman is she pulled a piece out, but in my opinion, it was like, what happened to you is what, what we always talk about with the Black Canyon in particular is that the climbing's run out. The rock's not very good. And especially cause she was on a pegma type band, which is these particularly rotten shit you have to climb.

[00:55:47] And it's in all the lore, it's in all your epic stories. But then when it goes wrong, even though we think we talk about all the time, it's like, well, then she did something wrong. It's, do you know what I'm getting at? It's like this really. Oh God, I know what you're getting at. Yes, I do. It's just like, well, and then what, did these people want to kill you? I mean, did they want you to commit suicide? Is that, I mean, it's just such this weird motivation to, I mean, this dark, awful motivation

[00:56:15] to, I mean, it's one thing to analyze and certainly avalanche reports come out with all these things and they go, yes, good, bad, and the other thing. But like personal, just relentless attack sounds absolutely fucking awful. Yeah, I think there's a lot there, but one for sure, I want to make this clear that I do think accidents, there's so much to learn from an accident.

[00:56:42] And especially if you're a guide and you have an accident, you should and need to be prepared for that accident to be very thoroughly reviewed, right? And, but once it is reviewed and once it is seen through, which everyone wants, including the guide, then those results need to be accepted for what they are from the professionals. It can't all be a conspiracy theory that everyone's out to like, everyone's on the same team and

[00:57:11] hide things and this and that, like, then there's no, like, that leaves zero chance for the, for the guides to ever have their, that truth and that reality be recognized, right? Yeah. So I very much feel like things need to be reviewed after accidents and looked at and analyzed. But so often people, that's all they want to know.

[00:57:41] Someone has an accident and right away they ask, what happened? Well, where did she put that piece of gear? What was the rock like? Was it the right size? Did it, you know, how was her, what was her head state? Was she scared? Was she like, did she have enough to eat that day? Like at some point you can go down the hindsight drain. Well, then there's the should she have been on that route, which is what she got, you know, like should she have been on this route or whatever. All these things.

[00:58:06] But in the end, whatever answer you give people, I really feel like what people want from that is this nice little gift that you've given them. Like, okay, it was in crappy rock. Okay, great. I won't put my gear in crappy rock. Okay. I can go out in the mountains tomorrow. Oh, she was on something that was too hard for her. Oh, I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to climb stuff. That's easy for me. Oh, well, it was really windy that day. And that's why the avalanche happened. Okay.

[00:58:35] I won't ice climb when it's really windy next time. Like they just want this nice little package that keeps them safe. We're going in the mountains the next day. Right. But there's always going to be something different. But do you know what I'm saying? Right. I think that's why people want to know so much about accidents. It isn't necessarily to have these massive tangible learnings, but to make them feel

[00:59:04] safe about their actions and how it won't happen to them. That gets a bit old. And I think that was part of it. Like if it could just be acknowledged that I made the worst errors in my decision making somehow, then okay. Then they are safe to go back there the next day too, right? Because they're not me and they won't make those decisions. And I'm a poor decision maker. Right. I don't know. Maybe that's why.

[00:59:34] Well, let's move on to the, like I said, the recovery. You started climbing again in a big way actually. And you came out of, you decided the wallowing was over, if you will. You'd gone low enough. So what did that look like? I think it wasn't just like, woo, I'm out the door. It was going with people that I could back out with lots. And I did.

[01:00:02] You know, I'd warn them like, I don't know. I don't know how far we'll get today. And sometimes literally I'd be hiking to the crag. I'm like, oh, I hear voices at the crag. I can't do this. I'm going home. Right. I'm like, turn around. Like we're, oh, just, oh, it starts to snow. No, I'm out. I don't want to climb. Like whatever. Just had to have people that accepted that. And I think that's, that would be a take home for anyone trying to get back out after

[01:00:30] accidents is really have understanding partners that you can do that with. Right. That's important. So that eventually one day it feels right. And you want it. You want to go back out there bad enough. And, and I think I also had to feel like I deserved it again. Like, Hey, I, I do deserve to be happy and doing the things I love again. You know, that wasn't an easy thing to say to myself.

[01:01:00] Did you think about like, I'll move to Vancouver and become a computer analyst? Oh yeah. I was never like for sure. I was, I was, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, and then instead what happened was I had to like immerse myself even more in all the negatives of this accident by like becoming the ambassador of Avcan for ice climbing and

[01:01:28] starting a support group for people, you know, have had loss and trauma in the mountains. So instead I think I stopped seeing it as this horrible thing that happened to me and more like, this is part of me and how can I use it now for the rest of my life? That is a good way to live with it. What about this project? The, the, the, the link up the, the triple crown, whatever you want to call it.

[01:01:55] I have a close friend, uh, who's it's a woman. She's a, she's this incredible competitor. Um, I'm not a name or name, but, uh, incredible competitor has been all her life. And I've like determined that part of her ability to, to compete and suffer because what

[01:02:20] she does is, is a suffering thing is part of her personality of, of like, sort of like, I deserve this suffering. I, I, I deserve this pain. Um, and therefore I can, I can push in, push and push and push where other people are soft in the sense that like, they, they give up because they want to feel better. And she's like, sometimes it doesn't, I, I, I determined this that like, she doesn't want

[01:02:48] to feel, always just want to feel better. And I, when I was reading about this thing and in the film, this, this like incredible challenge that you give yourself and then watching you attempt to do it, I'm like, she's just like, she wants that. She wants to just like exhaust herself out of this or I, am I wrong? Am I, am I like pop psychology? I didn't even take this whole bit out if I'm like completely off.

[01:03:16] It just seems so hard in such a big goal for someone. It would have been a, it would have been a big goal for you in February of 2019 when you were, as do you admit, we're like, I am the, you know, in my prime right now. And you do it as a, as a like challenge to yourself to, to put this behind you in a sense, not behind you, but to become at peace with it.

[01:03:45] Actually, that's fucked too. I know. To accept it in your life as something that's going to be there. How's that? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it always was a natural thing for someone to try and I had dabbled with it in my brain before, always thinking I would do it with a partner. What was it though? Oh, it was to climb like three routes in the, in the white bris, like hydrophobia, cryophobia, and no phobia.

[01:04:13] And I, I thought it was like the perfect kind of thing for me personally, because it had some hard mixed climbing, like some steep mixed climbing that not everyone likes doing. And it had kind of the scratch and sniff. I call it more vertical ice climbing, mixed climbing, and just pure ice climbing. So it kind of had the three things all in one that I felt like I had the skills for, but going back to it after that, I didn't know if I had the skills for it.

[01:04:41] Obviously that's what it was about was just seeing, okay, do I trust myself enough to do these things? It wasn't about trusting the environment. Like I felt quite good in the environment there. It was more just, do I trust my own, you know, there's a lot of judgment making in ice climbing and mixed climbing. Like, do I just trust myself? Like, can I be with myself out there again and find, tap into that part of myself that I took so long to develop that I missed.

[01:05:12] Like I wanted to be in that body again. So I thought, well, let's go find out. And I don't know if it's so much that I like the pain cave part. I do like like long days, but when they're long like that, they don't feel like suffering to me at all. Okay. They, um. So I'm full of shit. No, no, no. I like, I think I'll like your friend a lot. So I'd really, there'd be a part that I could really relate to. You probably know her.

[01:05:42] And maybe I'm the one that's full of shit. Maybe I do like this pain, so we're suffering. That's coming from a non-ice climber, right? So I just think it's all something. Yeah, it is. And the fact is, is when I was watching the film and I know, because I know like, uh, Brett and Marc Andre put up roots back in there and it's, it's one valley north of the ghost really. This is very similar. And I'm just like, wait a second, look at that wall on the background. Like, why isn't anyone over there? I mean, not when you're there, but, or even just right around those roots. Oh, I know. I'm like. So much great rock pond.

[01:06:12] Put a bunch of fricking bolted roots up there. Yeah. So anyway, next time I watch it, I'll pause and see if I can. Well, that is the valley. I'm pretty sure we're Brett and Marc. Yeah, yeah. They've got roots in there for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, well, now it's about the same to get in the summer as in the winter because you can only drive so far. Anyway. It's epic. But, um. Yeah, you had to go in and, and like camp out in there and like. Well, I only camped one night and that was really stupid because heavy load. Right. Set it all up.

[01:06:41] Go in, climb like a pitch or two, come back, suffer winter camp. And the next morning I was like, this is stupid. And we left. We didn't climb anything. So. For some reason, I don't feel rested after trying to sleep in negative 30 or whatever it was. Yeah. No. And I was like scared all night about cougars and things like this. Like, I don't know. I just had a lot of unnecessary fears.

[01:07:05] How much long, like, how long after the accident did this, did your, like your, your attempt, like the real attempt, um, happen? Uh. Like how soon on was it? It was under a year. Okay. It was in January. Okay. I chose a really nice long day. Not. Yeah, right. Not many daylight hours. No, it's November right now. And I'm like, why is it not light out yet? No. Yeah. Epically long nights.

[01:07:34] Um, but that's just when it was in shape and I had time and was motivated for it. So. Yeah. I don't know. We'll talk about, talk about that day. Yeah. Well, so two days prior to that, we went out there and just tried to get to know the roots a bit more because I really did not have much luck on my training days to get very far. Ironically. Um, so I got on cryophobia a little bit and just to see how it felt. And I was like, okay. That's the really steep one.

[01:08:04] No, cryo is like the M8 plus one. Okay. What's the real, the bottom of it? No phobia. All right. Yeah. And then I, and then I got on a couple of pictures, pitches of no phobia and I got the worst muscle cramps. And I was like, this is a funny, like I've climbed four pitches and I'm done. And we went home. And then the next day was, um, Laura's memorial service, which was really emotional day. Um, and brings up a lot of, yeah.

[01:08:33] Well, that's another, another climber. She was a skier. Well, sorry. Yeah. She died skiing. Okay. But a friend of ours, you know, and, um, I just want to make it clear that entire arc of our story wasn't related to, to what had happened. No, but it was, it wasn't, right? It's like, okay, you're going to revisit this now, this like painful part of life and death again. And then the next day you're going to go try to do this link up.

[01:09:02] So yeah, I didn't sleep much. And we went out there, um, but I was like, well, this is the day. Let's just try and do what we can do. And I foolishly didn't wear my cross country skis. I wore my touring skis with my ice climbing boots to save time. And I got the worst blisters ever. So that didn't help the day. Amateur move. I don't know why I did that, but anyway. Um, yeah.

[01:09:29] And the day just seemed to go along really smoothly, mostly. And I was enjoying it and I had awesome friends out there helping. And I like, I could tell they wanted it as badly as me. So that was, so it felt like a team thing. You know, I felt like I wanted to do it for all of us that were out there at that point. It was definitely a team event. Um, yeah.

[01:09:55] And then we got to manage to do cryophobia and then no phobia surprised. I got through that because I hadn't that year at all. Um, and then I was like, okay, well, this is pretty good. Like I could be content with this. Yeah. That footage of the, of the no phobia steepness is epic. Yeah. It's a cool pitch. Like you're, you're trying really, really hard. Yeah, I really was. Cause actually my hand just kept getting jammed between the rock and my tool. Mm-hmm.

[01:10:24] Like just the way that hold was and my, and the way, the steepness of the wall, like I couldn't actually like grab the tool anywhere else. And my hand was just stuck getting crammed in there. That was, that was the issue. But eventually I did a little move and managed to grab it and get out of there. But it was, it took all my effort for sure. And then I really had no desire to climb hydrophobia after that whatsoever, but like, okay, this is just going to be work. It's just ice climbing. I know how to do this.

[01:10:53] Let's just, yeah. One step at a time. Don't be stupid. Um, and then I was one pitch from the top when a dam, a water dam broke at the top of this thing. And it's a big ice climb. Um, and I guess that's how it got its name hydrophobia because when the first ascensionists went to do it, something similar like this happened. And I guess the water pools under the ice at the top of the climb.

[01:11:21] It's quite a flat kind of zone up there. And I don't know what causes it. Um, I'm sure someone would have told me in hindsight, I should have known that that was going to happen. But, um, yeah, it, it burst and water just like. Cascaded over the climb, like, like a whitewater river, like rooster tail of water coming over and it was loud. And I didn't know what was going to happen to the climb.

[01:11:49] You know, you're three pitches up this just vertical ice climb. And I knew if we got wet, that would be really dangerous in those temperatures. So we just turned around, got out of there. Yeah. Cause it's freezing ass cold. Yeah. And the water is only coming out because it's, it's insulated underneath the ice. Yeah. And then as soon as it hits the ice or sprays, it's like just turns and like your, yeah, all your gear would just freeze up right away.

[01:12:15] Well, and also, I mean, just, it's like psychologically, I don't think, you know, it's like, it just must've burrowed right into your brain. The sound of something coming over this thing. Oh yeah. Yeah. It just seemed like another, it was a huge unknown. I hadn't experienced anything like that. So I was like, I don't need to experience this anymore than I need to. We just left anchors behind and just wrapped out of there as quickly as we could. Yeah. Perfect decision.

[01:12:46] I think. Yeah. Well, it was what it was, you know, maybe had I continued, it would have been the perfect decision too, if nothing bad had happened, but you know. No, it means, I don't know. It all means more now. Right. And, and, and I mean, you're, you're fine with that effort. Oh yeah. Yeah. Totally. I never went into the day really expecting necessarily to achieve it.

[01:13:13] Like I wanted to, I went in there with the hopes, but I didn't know the outcome would be, I was just going to try my hardest. So that's the outcome. That's the outcome. So obviously you don't just traipse out of there like, okay, I've, I've broken the spell. I'm better now. But let me ask you about moving forward. And then this, this film coming up, like I said, it's sort of, I felt like when I was

[01:13:42] thinking about this interview, we'd do, it's like a companion piece. Um, we're five years out more and you're, you're, you know, you're clearly not loving talking about this. I mean, whatever. I don't know. I won't project your feelings on you, but this is an uncomfortable subject. But then someone earlier than this, a long time ago comes with to you and says, let's, let's tell the world about this and let's have you recount it.

[01:14:09] Well, what was that like to accept that, accept that proposal? Well, it's not exactly how it happened. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I wanted to tell the world about it in some ways, but not entirely in how it was told. So that's, I guess, like I approached the filmmaker saying, you know, I want to, I want to do a story about how do you move on from the worst day of your life?

[01:14:39] Like you only have two choices, right? You don't move on or you do move on and you try to make the most of it. And I, like I said, I think at the start, like a big part of climbing and, and life is about relating to other people. So I really wanted to relate to other people and have other people relate to me in their lives. I mean, everyone is going to have a worst day of their life at some point.

[01:15:06] Some, maybe more, some harder, worse, easier. I don't know, but everyone can relate to that. So that's the part that I wanted to share. I didn't actually want to recount the story. I didn't want to go back in time. I didn't, I didn't want it to be reenacted, any of that, because I knew that it could bring up resentment.

[01:15:33] And I didn't, so I really wanted it just to be about the journey afterwards. But I think to tell that journey afterwards, the producer felt like they had to tell the story before. Well, I'm doing that too. I'm just using the film. Yeah. I'm just telling people to go over there. So I do understand that.

[01:15:55] I do understand that, but I also know that that's, that was naive of me perhaps in thinking I could share the after story without sharing the before story. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I think I just, I also just wanted to have the story be out there because there was

[01:16:19] a lot of, a lot of misunderstandings, I'd say, around it. Mm-hmm. Do you cringe thinking of it being out there now or do you, are you all right with it? I mean, I've had a lot of, a lot of people telling me thanks for that and this and that. But then there's, there's also the people that are like, well, you're an idiot because you're going back out there. Like, duh. Right. Or, yeah, you'll, you'll get both.

[01:16:47] You'll get both in, that's how life goes. So I don't think I have regrets, but I'm not that person anymore either. Right. So sometimes that's how people saw me last and, and they don't really know who I am now, which, you know, it's been four, three, four years since the film. So I think I am a different person again. We, hopefully we keep learning and evolving as we grow older. So.

[01:17:18] Well, it's, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, we talked, this is like, you know, this is going to be your worst day ever, I hope. Or, I mean, I don't know how that comes across, but let's hope that it doesn't, our worst day doesn't come along. You've, you've changed a ton, but it's like, you know, the movies out there, it is a defining moment in a sense, which is, you know, in a way a drag, you know, that, that's, that's kind of part of your life that everybody will want to bug you about when you come to these

[01:17:47] things like you are. Right now. I mean, I'm admitting that, but you've also embraced it like full on with your own work with, with grief and with trauma with other people. Can you talk about what that is? You know, this Mountain Musk Ox program, but also the decision, you know, again, to go towards it that, that hard in a sense. Yeah.

[01:18:13] Well, I felt very, very alone after that experience, just more alone than I've ever felt in my life. And it wasn't until a therapist suggested I talk to some other guides that could relate to my experience. And that's when I hung out with Barry and Todd. And all of a sudden I felt like seen, like I felt understood.

[01:18:38] And like, I could have more emotions than just sadness and, and remorse and, and shame. I mean, Barry had this, this exact experience or not exact, but he, he lost clients. Yeah. Yeah. He, Barry's had his own experience and people have had similar experiences for sure. So it was nice to just feel understood, I'd say.

[01:19:06] And so that perpetuated into this feeling like, well, what if we opened this up to more people? And so we kind of tried a pilot program of 10 people that year where we met twice a month for like three months and, uh, with a therapist and another facilitator and, and, um, yeah, it was very powerful and there was a lot of like pretty young trauma there.

[01:19:34] So there was a lot going on that year for a lot of people. So it was quite the pilot program really. Um, but it just changed people to feel more understood and feel, um, like they had a community again. Cause that's what, I mean, even people with just near misses can feel so separated from the community so quickly because people don't understand that it can happen to them and they

[01:20:03] just point fingers or find the flaws and, and, um, people feel really shameful afterwards. So yeah, that pilot program went well. So we kept running it in the Bow Valley and it's grown. Now we have a chapter in Sea to Sky, one in Bow Valley, one in Golden, and we're starting one in the Kootenays. And really, I kind of see it as like mental health insurance for mountain towns. Like I would love for it to be available for all mountain towns.

[01:20:32] People have a safe place to go to just whether, yeah, not just a safe place. I just mean a place that where they feel understood. They can learn from other people's journeys and see hope in where other people are, have gotten to, or yeah. And gain tools on how to move forward with whatever it is they've experienced. It's not about getting people back out doing the stuff they love. If that happens, that's great.

[01:21:01] But it's more just about helping people become the best, their best selves again, to go back out into the community and, and for their families and their friends and not carry this burden around. When you were training to be a guide, was this like, and maybe it's, and you can talk about the training that you do, that you train other guides or examine other guides. Is this a topic?

[01:21:30] Is this, this idea of what happens if things do go wrong ever a topic? Or do you, do you just, is it just, we all live in the comfortable illusion that you're not, it's not going to happen to you. So don't worry about it. I mean, does that ever discussed? And do you think it, I mean, obviously you think maybe it should be, but also it's like a buzzkill for a young guy who's all excited. Yeah. There's so much there that you just said that I want to talk about. But first of all, yeah.

[01:22:00] I don't think it, it used to be talked about nearly like in my career, in my guiding career, I don't feel like it was talked about very much. Do I think it's getting talked about more now? Yes, for sure. And yeah, the, the joy, the buzzkill part. I think that's really interesting because that's one of the main things that you lose when you have experienced something bad is that innocence, right? Right.

[01:22:25] And that innocence was an amazing time of life where you rock climbing, whatever it was, it was just all good, right? There we, you know, it was amazing. Yeah. Nothing bad could happen. You knew it, but not to you, right? Right. It's like the hero in the movie where the explosions are happening all around them and you're just like, like marching right through it, right? And I mean, that's, that's what a lot of people actually come to the musk ox morning is that

[01:22:50] innocence because it's really hard to hang out with those people again after you've experienced something bad, right? And they're just like, it's all good. Let's go, right? Right. You don't want to take them down, but you also like, you don't relate to that person anymore. Right. They don't relate to you. You guys are on different levels. So I think it, you know, having worked a lot of the guiding program now, it doesn't matter what I say. I exude that lack of innocence for sure.

[01:23:17] Like I exude that reality check all the time. And I don't mind being the buzzkill or, you know, being the reality check if that's what that is, I think younger guides, younger climbers are way more open to seeing a full picture now. Oh yeah. Yeah, I really do. And I think, I think they, there's just more of an awareness that it could happen to anyone.

[01:23:45] People have seen it enough around them that it's happened to their mentors or people that they've really admired that they, I think they're starting to feel like, okay, I'm, I'm not actually exempt from this. It could happen to me. And I want to be a bit more prepared for it. Even like on a day of, let's say rock climbing on Yamnuska on the approach, I'll say like, I have a lot of baggage with this mountain, like years of climbing here.

[01:24:13] I have, I've seen a lot of, a lot of near misses. I've been here when someone has died. I have been here with help, with helicopters picking people up. Like I have seen things. So I don't approach this mountain with this, like joyful, like it's going to be the best day in the world. Like that baggage is in me somewhere, even if I'm excited and happy to go climbing that.

[01:24:39] And I think it's okay to acknowledge that and be really aware of that and make it present to those around me. Like, Hey, you know, if I, if we hear some rock fall, I have very little tolerance for that. So just be aware. Or if you go slightly off route, no tolerance for that, because I've seen how that can go badly.

[01:24:59] So, you know, yeah, there's, there's, is some wisdom in, in having experienced a lot of things. I think that, that hopefully we can, you know, it's hard to learn from other people's experiences, but it doesn't hurt to express them and share them when you can. Yeah.

[01:25:23] It's hard to get a 20 something or whatever kid, girl, or a guy to, for it to sink in. Cause you just, it's like impossible almost, but it's also probably an interesting litmus test to see how it lands. Like I got nine people here and I just told them the story and two of them I could see just completely blew off what I just said. Right. You know, that's probably a good, like, well, huh? So, cause I probably was that kid.

[01:25:53] I probably was, I mean, I definitely, when I was an 18 year old, I'd have been like, whatever lady. Right. Like, those are the olden times. Yeah. I think the interesting thing too is I think so often we look at an outcome and we try to, um, we try to compare it to the decisions that were made that got you there. Right. And, and we think that's the worst possible outcome must've been the worst possible decisions. If it was a good outcome, it was good decisions.

[01:26:22] I mean, at some point we can really look at that and see that that's flawed. Right. Right. But let's say climbing on yam, you know, you test a hold, you trust it. It comes out that could result in so many different things. Fall on a bolt. You're fine. A big whip, you broke your leg, a bigger whip, you know, maybe you don't survive. Right. It's all the, still the same decision. Right.

[01:26:49] That led you to that thing that could have many different outcomes. And if it's what I was saying before about like, before an accident happened, everybody just accepts those things. And so if you'd have pulled on it and it broke and you like managed to catch yourself, everyone would be like, oh yeah, that's yam. Yeah. That's just what happens up there, you know? Yeah. And then if you'd done the same thing and died, everybody would say, well, that guy was an idiot for using that hold.

[01:27:14] You know, it's like, that's what I'm saying about like the perspective, like completely turns upside down depending on the outcome. Exactly. Right. And when you, that like frustrated me to no end for many years. And now I find it really interesting and I like really try to discuss it more with people because yeah, we can be really judgmental really fast in, in the outdoor world because we really, we value skill and experience and all of these things.

[01:27:43] And that is super valuable, but we also have to value luck. Right. And acknowledge that aspect of it too. We don't want to because we want to think we've achieved something great. It's all on us, but it's not, we know that actually, but it all goes the other way too. Yeah. It's all something really bad happened. It's not all on that person. It's sort of the yin and yang of like intellect emotion, you know, there's an emotional response

[01:28:13] and intellectual response. But you know what you said earlier where you said you find that maybe the newer, younger guides, and maybe you would include climbers in general, seem more open to sort of hearing these things or, or putting them in perspective. And I was just thinking about, and I've remarked on this other times and also reading, uh, I keep pointing over there cause my Kindle's over there, but also reading Barry's book again

[01:28:41] from this whole different era. But then also just realizing that we don't necessarily highlight it often, but like the mental health issues that went along with so many of these early climbers that we revere for their boldness and their bluntness. I mean, I want, we keep getting these like, you know, what is it?

[01:29:08] Hagiography, hagiography, that word, these like glowing stories of the, of the stone masters. Right. That's like, it's like a cottage industry. And there's like clearly so much mental health things with those groups of climbers, you know? And I'm like, who's going to tell that story? When is that story coming out? And, and like, you know, some of the, some of the sort of anecdotes in Barry's book, like

[01:29:35] these guys, you know, dark depressions between climbs and things like that. And I think we've like, by and large, it's, we're a more diverse group of people. There's a lot, not like. It's a nice way to say it. Well, I'm just saying like, we, it's like more common. I mean, is the gym to crag thing or whatever, which I've made fun of endlessly, but it's more common to have like pretty more well-adjusted people in climbing in my opinion.

[01:30:03] Don't you, I mean, think about that era of like Barry and Kevin Doyle and those guys and just like, I mean, it was, yeah. Dwight. I mean, come on. Yeah. Who is darker than Dwight? Yeah. I don't know. Maybe, maybe I'm saying stuff you don't, since you're not like as deep in the history, but. I'm not. But I mean, the irony is still that. Yeah. You could still find, you know, people are like, oh, those were the days, but you could still find that in these mountains. No problem. Right. That kind of adventure.

[01:30:33] Yeah. No problem. If that's what you wanted. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. That was a tangent I might take off. Well, let's get to the end here. So let me ask you this about your work with the Mountain Musk Ox. You know, that's for you as well, right? That's for you to continue to, again, I mean, even finding healing or all these sort of things,

[01:31:00] just being more comfortable with this thing that's always going to be in your life. I mean, it's for you too, right? Oh, for sure. I think that one of the biggest things that people get from going to a meeting is they come for themselves and they realize they can actually give back to a lot to the people around them, right? In their understanding and their support and where they've gotten to or their tools or whatever, they're giving back.

[01:31:27] And that's the richest part of life, for sure. When you feel like you're giving back. For me, that's always... Well, clearly. Yeah. That's how we started talking on this podcast. Yeah. So, ice climbing season is starting. It's here, sort of. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, it was a dangerous drive here, I'll be honest, because there's lots to look at. Yeah. I was like, oh, God. I mean, are you excited?

[01:31:56] Where is your level now these days? I mean, I imagine in whatever, 2010, when the first freezes started to happen, you got pretty amped up. Where are you at now with the coming ice climbing season? Yeah. I mean, it's an evolution of so many things, but I'm definitely not going to be that person who puts the heavy pack on and goes for a 20K walk to see if something is in anymore. You know, like, I kind of want to know...

[01:32:26] That's what the internet's for now. Yeah, exactly. There's probably not that much mystery anyway. Yeah. I'm excited. I'm excited to go ice climbing again, especially this time of year. It's nice. There's not a lot of snow, so that's one less hazard out there. But, yeah, I have some things I want to do this winter that I want to get in shape for. So I've been, like, dry tooling and finding little challenges that way.

[01:32:56] And as long as I'm out with a fun partner and, yeah, we're having a good day, then it doesn't totally matter what the objective is right now. I'm not chomping to go do some first ascents right now. So I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that are and... Have at it. Have at it. Yeah. Go get it. I'm passing the torch anyway. Yeah. Okay. So finally, you were talking about expanding this Mountain Musk Ox thing.

[01:33:25] First of all, where do people find information about this? And then also, what's your hopeful future for that? And what's on the horizon? Do you have more tentacles running out into other communities with this thing? Yeah. Well, you can find us. We have a website. Just Google Mountain Musk Ox. We have an Instagram. We have a booth here down at the VAM Film Festival. Cool. Yeah. Like I said, I think the hope is just that it's there for people when they need it.

[01:33:55] So it's a big lofty hope. We get reached out to by, you know, a lot of different people from a lot of different areas. So ideally, it would be great to move into the States. And we have a really transferable way of offering the program now and onboarding people. So it's an easy thing to build a new chapter. Everything is free, though. So it's just a matter of fundraising and keeping the funds coming in, really.

[01:34:23] That's the biggest challenge, as is for every nonprofit. Right. Yeah, I think I just think it's really important if we're going to keep celebrating all the highs. And, you know, we do here at the Film Fest, you know, the summits and the high fives and all that. We also have to be there for each other during the lows and the valleys. So that's what that Mountain Musk Ox is about. It's about having a community that gets both sides.

[01:34:51] It's not about being sad all the time, but it's about understanding, understanding there's an up and a down. And, you know, that's that's part of life in the mountains.

[01:35:26] All right, folks, thanks for listening. And thanks so much to Sarah for doing that. She left behind an ailing Will gad at home to come up and do that. And I heard that Will can be kind of a baby when he gets sick. It was not an easy conversation for her. However, it is a mission of hers to share her feelings. I think she felt good about it afterwards. We're still friendly. So that's a good sign.

[01:35:49] And if you want to know more about the organization Mountain Musk Ox, just go to mountainmuskox.com. It's all over Canada. Sarah talked about doing stuff here in the States. I'm not sure what's going on with that. You know, we're not getting along so well with Canada right now for some stupid reason. A lot of Canadians are just staying put. Can't blame them. Again, that's mountainmuskox.com. If you or anyone you know is dealing with trauma from an accident in the mountains, they're there to help.

[01:36:20] As simple as that. They're just there to help. Okay, this is a good one to remind you to be safe out there. Try to make good decisions. Don't let your guard down. Even when you're having one of those best days ever. In fact, that's probably the most dangerous time. Just having fun. Not thinking about the consequences. Keep it tight. Watch out for each other. And of course, check your knots.

[01:37:06] One day you finally knew what you had to do and began. Though the voices around you kept shouting their bad advice. Though the whole house began to tremble and you felt the old tug at your ankles. Mend my life, each voice cried. But you didn't stop. You knew what you had to do. Though the wind pried with its stiff fingers at the very foundations.

[01:37:35] Though their melancholy was terrible. It was already late enough and a wild night. And the road full of fallen branches and stones. But little by little, as you left their voices behind. The stars began to burn through the sheets of clouds. And there was a new voice which you slowly recognized as your own. That kept you company as you strode deeper and deeper into the world.

[01:38:05] Determined to do the only thing you could do. Determined to save the only life you could save. But just a lot of blood flow is coming to a car. The whole place you would do. You could do the same way. But understand what happens when you are now.