[00:00:00] You are listening to the Enormocast. Before the dawn of history, on the primordial earth, many, many years before Canada even existed, there lived a tiny creature whose innovation changed the course of evolution. This extraordinary critter, in an attempt to outdo and outlive the prey and predators around it,
[00:00:24] decided one day to fly, or glide, or maybe just jump really high, we don't actually know. But that's not the point. The point is, is that the little Archaeopteryx reached for the heavens and became a legend. What this little rebel could not have known is that its strange, brittle skeleton would be discovered hundreds of millions of years later
[00:00:51] and inspire the folks at Arcteryx Equipment to help our own earthbound corporeal forms reach for the sky. Since 1989, coincidentally the year I started climbing, Arcteryx has been innovating gear and apparel for climbers to perform when the weather becomes predatory, and also to help us look as spiffy as a lizard with feathers while we soar to our own great heights.
[00:01:15] And now, Arcteryx has joined the Enormo cast to continue the tradition of telling stories of the best and brightest in climbing, as well as the misfits, dirtbags, and fringe dwellers. So, dear listener, raise your glass to that brave little lizard bird thingy that dared to fly, maybe, and let's toast Arcteryx for helping us achieve our own skyward dreams. Arcteryx is now a proud sponsor of the Enormo cast.
[00:01:47] We gotta get up. Listen, uh, where are you playing in town? Are you playing here? We're doing the, uh, Enormo dome, whatever it is. It's terrific. Oh yeah, big place outside of town. Very nice. That's a big place. You sold it out. I'll see. Look, you better get up there before you panic. Those pens are loose. You're very good. I have really enjoyed climbing them with you. We'll make it. I don't think so. But we shall continue with style.
[00:02:25] Bad weather. Now or later, anytime. Today's show is brought to you by La Sportiva, Arcteryx Equipment, and with support from Maxim Ropes. Maxim has been keeping the Enormo cast off the deck since 2012. And now, we can also thank the chill folks at Yeti. And don't forget our charter sponsor, Bonfire Coffee. Go to bonfirecoffee.com and enter Enormo at checkout for a discount on great coffee and to support the Enormo cast.
[00:02:54] And now, back to the show. Hello and welcome to the Enormo cast. This is your host, Chris Kalus. It is May 13th, 2025, about 8.30 a.m. here in Colorado. And this is episode 200, no, 305 of the Enormo cast. Just threw away 100 episodes right there.
[00:03:18] On today's show, climber, alpinist, global citizen, Caro North. Have you guys heard of Caro North? She's a little off the North American radar, I think. But she deserves your attention. I assure you. Got this one way back in November, up in Banff. I actually ended up kind of ending the year last year with a bit of a stockpile. And then, of course, I took a little time off.
[00:03:48] Slowed the output. So, we're finally getting back to some of these. It's okay. You know, a lot of times I do an interview that's not exactly timely. So, it's fine. Cool thing is, is I'm on a streak right now of face-to-face interviews. Starting with Quentin Roberts in February. Sean Villanuevo Driscoll was face-to-face. Sam Stroh was face-to-face. This one was in the room in Banff. And I got like three or four more.
[00:04:15] Do face-to-face in-the-room interviews matter to you? I don't know. I don't know if the quality or the change in vibe is something that people even notice anymore. But it matters to me because I enjoy meeting these people, hanging out with them. Oftentimes, ancillary to the interview. We spend a little bit of time together. And it's fun for me. It's why I started doing this thing. If you all recall or you new listeners don't remember, I did 205 or so face-to-face interviews in a row.
[00:04:44] It was a requirement. Why did I stop? Well, COVID started it. But nowadays, with the technology being better, I think it's a little bit of an impetus to demand someone get in front of me. If it works out easy for them, then that's a whole other thing. So face-to-face interviews. I like them. Hopefully, you like them. And hopefully, I can keep on this trend of doing more of those than on the internet. And it's also like, you know, when you're doing them on the internet, you just kind of churn them out.
[00:05:12] You know, you have these appointments each week. And some of these people I'll meet on the internet for like 10 minutes before we interview. I don't know. It just misses the old vibe. So I'm working hard on it. Hopefully, you guys appreciate it. And while we're on the subject of Banff, I actually have been invited back, which is so fucking cool, you guys. I was bowled over last year when they got in touch with me. We had a great time. I did a live event there that was super fun with Barry Blanchard.
[00:05:40] You can listen to that from last November, I think. Just a blast. I also ended up getting three face-to-face interviews, getting in the room with a couple heroes. It was just too much fun. Plus, my wife Stephanie came. We ate great food. We did some hikes. It wasn't really climbing season for the likes of us. But yeah, it was a blast. Anyway, Banff passes are on sale for the 50th anniversary of the Banff Film Festival. You can go to banffcenter.ca to check out what's going to happen this year.
[00:06:11] Get some passes if you're around, if you're in Albertan, if you live up in BC, if you happen to be in town. Come on over. It's an amazing international event. I don't know exactly what I'm doing. I'm doing that the invite is preliminary. We still have to get everybody booked and see who's available. But yeah, I'll be there. Okay. On to Caro North. Caro North is an alpinist, a rock climber, a full-blown European guide.
[00:06:39] She is Swiss by nationality, but in her heart, she's probably more of an Argentinian. She lives down in El Chalten, actually lives there, actually has a house there. Half the year spends the other half of the year in Switzerland, sort of. You know, these are generalizations because most of the time she's gone on expeditions.
[00:07:02] I caught up with her in November, not long after she had printed an article in Alpinist about an all-women, three-month sailing trip to Greenland. Since then, I know she's been into the very deep backcountry of Patagonia. She's back guiding in Switzerland. So Caro is just an incredibly accomplished climber, guide, and a sweet person.
[00:07:28] The fun thing is she's friends with Sean Villanueva O'Driscoll, and she's got a really similar vibe. Just this joy around climbing, this kind of old-school style of wanting to go deep and do first ascents, take adventure as it comes. So I hope you enjoy this one. A conversation in the room, in Banff, with Caro North.
[00:07:52] Lo, these past few months, the EnormaCast has been asking you, dear listener, one simple question. What would you do for the set? Well, what would you do? Strap yourself to a hangboard until you're chanting, Three on, seven off, five on, minute off, drag, crimp, half crimp, in your sleep? How about flagellating yourself on a board until your sad, hollowed-out visage is featured on a commercial for the Crag to Gym initiative?
[00:08:19] Hey, if fresh air and sunshine are not your thing, maybe you should try Crag to Gym. Well, now that I say these things out loud, they sound like pretty damn good ideas. But let me tell you what else I've done to keep that spring in my climbing step. It's simple. Squama by Sportiva. Honestly, I started climbing anything challenging in Sportiva Squamas a couple years back, and the difference in my bottom half confidence is remarkable.
[00:08:46] Tight but comfy enough, the Squamas edge, smear, hook, and book on high-action routes and boulders anytime, anywhere. Anywhere I climb anyway. Look, no matter what you do, if you're trying hard enough, the fingers are going to fail. So why not shore up the bottom end with a pair of ridiculously good Sportiva Squamas? And finally put an answer to the question, What would you do for the send? Go to sportiva.com for a look-see or your local shop to slip on a Squama.
[00:09:14] And don't sleep on the vegan Squama. Same sending without the animal products. Cool. Well, thanks for coming. You know, we're at the Banff Mountain Film Festival here in Canada. I was invited, which I was pretty excited about. I mean, have you been to this thing before? Is this your first invite? What are you doing up here? Yeah. Thanks for having me here. Yeah, of course. So good to talk to you in person. And now it's the first time for me here in Banff.
[00:09:43] And I got invited because when, well, my last movie is screening here. And so I got invited to present that. And it's great. Yeah. What do you think of the terrain that you can see and all this stuff that's around here? It's pretty, pretty incredible. It's crazy. Like so many mountains around here, like so beautiful, big mountains. And it definitely makes me want to come back like for ice climbing or doing stuff in the mountains. You know, not being an ice climber.
[00:10:10] I actually started climbing up in this area like 20 some years ago for rock climbing. And it's equally as awesome. But of course, the seasons are shorter and things like that. But it's a pretty awesome place to rock climb. And I was excited to come back for, you know, I think I was here 21 years ago was the last time I was here. But I spent like five summers up here putting up rock climbs and going to these places where there's all these ice climbs, like the Ghost River and stuff like that.
[00:10:40] And being like, well, why aren't you guys climbing all these walls that are here and they're dry in the summertime, you know? So but yeah, it was a good time. And I have a lot of memories up here. So I'm psyched to be here. But we're not here to talk about me. And yeah, I've been pursuing you a little bit. And you're just like super hard to nail down. I mean, your life is just this incredible climbing odyssey right now. Tell me just a little bit about, I mean, even just like your last six months.
[00:11:09] It seems like I can't find you ever around the world. Yeah, it's crazy. My life is kind of moving a lot. And I'm not the best like responding to emails often. I don't have like any reception. Yeah, I get it. I'm just out playing in the mountains and enjoying myself out there, like doing what I love doing. And right now I started spending like around seven months a year in Patagonia and then five months a year in Switzerland. That's where I'm originally from.
[00:11:38] And yeah, it's been fun. It's like moving around. And then yeah, in between I'll do expeditions somewhere or expeditions in Patagonia where you just don't have any signal anymore for a couple of weeks and stuff like that. Yeah, it's fun. You're sort of a throwback type of climber, you know, liking to go to these faraway places and do first ascents and, you know, put together sort of the remotest type of expeditions that you can think of.
[00:12:07] And yet you, as a professional climber, you have to be a modern person as well and understand that staying in touch and occasionally dropping media is an important part of your job. So does it feel natural to you as you? I mean, you're not. I don't know how old you are. I didn't look that up, but you're you're a relatively young person. So maybe it feels totally natural to you to be able to do both things. I guess it comes from time to time.
[00:12:34] Sometimes it feels like just easier to deal with everything and make everything work out. And then suddenly you get like really big trips and you're away for like so much time without signal. And then you come back to like the world with connection and suddenly there's like so much to deal with and it feels like way too much.
[00:12:51] And I really enjoy it to be out there and be like completely disconnected and be like completely living my expedition and my experience without sharing it with the world and just like being concentrated on it and like not thinking about any other things. You're just there in the moment and you just live what's happening right now. And it's like pretty simple. So that's what I really enjoy. But I agree, like, I mean, I live in a world where I have to like also be connected and organize stuff. And sometimes it's not easy.
[00:13:20] Sometimes I struggle to do this stuff. Sometimes I'm like, oh, I just want to be in the mountains. But I'm also a mountain guide and I guide quite a bit. So I also have to like organize my guiding trips and everything. So, yeah. Yeah, you can't make a living as a guide being unavailable and uncontactable. Exactly. Right. So, I mean, you're in El Chalten seven months. You have a house there or something like that? Yeah, I got really lucky.
[00:13:48] I bought a house in El Chalten like three years ago. Okay. And it's really hard to buy something there because Chalten can grow because of the geography. Right. It's like limited by the national park, the river and the mountains. So impossible to grow. But there's like more and more people coming like for working and also tourists. So it's really hard to buy something. You mainly have to be like the first one to know that something is going to get sold. And I was just super lucky that friends of mine told me that this lot was going to get sold and the house was going to get sold. And I was like the first one on it.
[00:14:18] And then I managed to buy it because for me, it really feels home there. So I've been dreaming about this for a long time. I thought it maybe would never be possible, but finally somehow it worked out. The other thing you opened with talking about being from Switzerland. And it was funny because when I was reading lots of things like you, I couldn't actually pin down where you were sort of originally from because I thought it was Switzerland. And then I read some line and they must have just gotten this wrong.
[00:14:47] And it was like they said, you're adopted home of Switzerland. And I was like, well, that doesn't make sense. So then where is she from? But it also speaks to like, you know, this sort of global kind of vibe that you have, you know, multiple languages. You know, you have all this experience in Switzerland. You have experience in India. You have, you know, tons of experience in South America. The fact that I couldn't figure out sort of where you were born kind of speaks to that. So talk, talk a little bit about that.
[00:15:17] I mean, it seems to be part of your vibe. Yeah, it's definitely part of me. And I don't feel like just being from one country. And I think this is also why there's like all kinds of different narratives often. But I was born in Switzerland. Okay. But I have German parents. So I grew up in Switzerland and also partly in Germany. So kind of both a little bit. And then when I was like 15, 16 years old, I moved to Argentina for a students exchange.
[00:15:43] So like already as a young kid, I moved there and lived in an Argentinian family, went to high school. And that's why I learned like Spanish. And this is kind of where my connection to Argentina came from because, yeah, I just went to school there and lived there for a year. And this is where kind of it all started going forth and back to Argentina. What year was that? This was in 2007. Okay. 2008. Yeah. Right.
[00:16:08] And I mentioned when we were sitting down that like, it seems as though the first bookend of sort of a notable climb was in 2008 of climbing Aconcagua. How did you arrive in Argentina as this high school kid? Like had you already been a climber at that point? Right. So if you're born in Switzerland, you get into the mountains like directly. And my parents, they put me on skis as soon as I could work. So I mainly just started skiing when I was like two or three years old. And then we would do these like hikes from hut to hut in the Swiss Alps.
[00:16:38] And my parents just realized, oh, she really likes like the technical scramble bit. So they put me like in a youth group from the Alpine club. And that's where I started like climbing with other kids when I was like 10 or 11 years old. And then we moved back to Germany. And I kind of started to climb all to competitions when I was around, yeah, I guess 13, 14, something like this. And then just at that time, I was going to go to Argentina and I was like so much into climbing on one hand, like competitions.
[00:17:05] But on the other hand, like lots of track climbing because where I lived in Germany at this time, it's like sandstone and you only get bolts where you cannot put gear. So we had to learn to put gear. So really, at a really young age, I was just getting into track climbing as a natural thing. And then I came to Argentina and I was like so psyched on climbing. And I ended up in Rosario, which is like a city 400 kilometer west of Buenos Aires, but it's flat, like there's a river.
[00:17:35] So I ended up rowing a lot, but it's like no climbing. But I was just telling all the people that I met, I love climbing. Do you don't know any climbers? And after 10 days, I knew the climbers of the town. And yeah, they had this like tiny little bouldering wall in like a gym. But like, yeah, really precarious. And I would like just boulder all the time with them and then like go on the weekends if they would go to like Cordoba for like rock climbing. And I was like so much into it. And I was also really into like mountaineering already.
[00:18:04] So I climbed the 4000 meter peaks in Switzerland. So I was like, I don't I want to go to Aconcagua. And my friends were like, OK, well, sure. But they had to like sign so many papers so that I could go because I was like not an adult yet. I was like only 15, 16 years old. But yeah, they when they came to visit me, they signed all these like official papers that they were OK that I was going. And they just sent me off to Aconcagua when I was like 16 years old. And I'm like so happy they did.
[00:18:32] Like for me, they opened me the doors to like the world I'm living in now. And I think other parents wouldn't have done it. And like later on, when I talked to friends, they're like, no, my parents would never have let me go with 16 years to try Aconcagua. But yeah, it was such a cool experience. And it was my first expedition. And did you go with like a guided group? Did you? Yeah. What was the situation to for a 16 year old to, you know, get on a bus and head down there?
[00:19:00] So actually, as I had lived in Argentina, I had met like many people of like kind of the climbing and alpine world in Argentina. And I had met guides who were organizing these trips. So like, OK, you should just join one of our trips. So I joined one of their trips and it was a mountain guide from Mendoza. And then I can't even remember how many other people there were on this trip. But pretty fast, I realized that with my 16 years, I had like more experience than all the other clients. I had like more.
[00:19:28] I was like fitter and everything. So it was pretty funny. And yeah, it was crazy. And this is also when I started like for the first time dreaming of becoming a mountain guide because I was like, wow, this is so cool. One day I want to be a guide too. Then, you know, you left Argentina, went back home, finished high school or whatever. University. I don't know if that was in line with all that stuff, too.
[00:19:51] But, you know, all of a sudden it was like, yeah, you started doing I think that thing where at least there's one big thing a year. And then, you know, then more than one big thing a year. I think you're in that mode now. But the thing that kept coming up in, you know, when I'd read about these trips or these expeditions, whether it was on your blog or elsewhere, is like first all women team.
[00:20:15] Like popped into a lot of things or, you know, girls team like our first, you know, woman to do this or or whatever. Like that seems like it became really important to you right away. Or was that just like the trend and the vibe of where in the people you were climbing with and things like that? Can you talk about that? Or maybe I'm reading into and it wasn't that prominent in your in your climbing career. No, definitely. I think like all my big expeditions, I've been doing them with other women.
[00:20:44] And I think at the beginning, I was especially climbing with my girlfriends because I didn't want anyone to say like, oh, but for sure, like the hard bridges were led by the guy. And I was like, no, no, I don't want this commentary. I just like climb my north faces and all the big stuff. I'll just climb it with my girlfriends because then no one can say anything. And then later on, it just became like supernatural because I had like so many strong girlfriends to just go on an expedition with them.
[00:21:13] So it became like supernatural. And I feel like really, yeah, nice energy with these other girls, women. So it just, yeah, kept on going like this. And for me now, it's kind of important to go on expeditions with my friends. It doesn't matter if they're like female or male or whatever. Like it just has have to be my friends. I just happen to like have really a lot of strong girlfriends climbers. So it's still like the same kind of that I go out on expeditions with them.
[00:21:43] Right. So in other words, it was a little bit of a statement, but it also felt natural just to climb with your friends who happened to be women at the time. Yes, exactly. At the beginning, definitely it was my statement. I was like, we can do it the same. And then it just was natural and succeeding all the time. So why was it, you know, this scene that you had?
[00:22:04] I mean, what was the structure of those years of becoming a better and better climber that you happened to be just have a lot of women friends? Because I think a lot of women. I mean, this would have been, yeah, like a decade ago or a little more. Or even now, a lot of women are, you know, they find themselves in these situations where they don't necessarily have a ton of equally competent women friends or or or women friends who are interested in, you know, the same goals and things like that.
[00:22:33] How was it that you did? Yeah, it's funny. I never had the problem and I hear it a lot. But I think what helped me a lot is that I speak so many languages. And so I can connect with women from everywhere. And I've been on expeditions with like really international people. And I think so, like I was connecting to like French speaking people, Americans, like Spanish, Argentinian. And then like the pool gets so much bigger.
[00:23:00] And I was also part like of one of the like young alpinist women teams. And I think this also helped because with these women, I definitely did a couple of expeditions afterwards. Right. Yeah, I read about that. So that was kind of an organized thing. And you were in Germany at that time. Yeah, exactly. I was in Germany. An organized German team for young female alpinists. Yeah, exactly. Okay, cool. Well, it was kind of the really beginning. So we were like the first female team before it had always been a mixed team.
[00:23:29] But there was only had there had only been one women in the mixed team. So then at one point, they're like, okay, we do a female team. And I think in Europe, nearly every country has this now like these like programs for like young alpinists to like improve and go on their first expedition. Yeah, it's interesting because it's, you know, so much more organized. It's so much more kind of, you know, nationally driven than it ever has been in the States. And I've commented on that before.
[00:23:58] I mean, even just alpine clubs, hiking clubs, you know, all those sorts of things. That's kind of just in the sort of fabric of the way things are organized there where I think in the U.S. or even Canada. Canada may be a little more organized, but everybody's just sort of on their own. I mean, we have an alpine club, but I would imagine more climbers are not in it than are actually members of that club. I mean, actually, I know that to be true by a large, large part.
[00:24:27] So, yeah, it's interesting to talk to someone from that paradigm where these things are sort of, you know, promoted by the culture that's over there. I think that with this program, definitely the alpine club like opened the doors for me to go like into a more professional mountaineering way and like becoming a guide and also like a sponsored athlete and getting in touch with sponsors and like just giving me this opportunity.
[00:24:52] It was I think it was like really helpful and also learning a lot for sure. And I mean, me by that time was living in Frankfurt or close to Frankfurt because my parents moved there and it was great for track climbing, but it's like so far away from the mountain. And so it was really funny because all the other girls, they were like from southern Germany, from the mountains. And I was kind of like the one person that's not living in the mountains.
[00:25:15] And sometimes it's like, wow, it's so hard actually like to do the same thing that they are doing, but just driving all the time where they had like parents that were like mountain guys. And I was like, oh, so hard work for me to put in. But I think like all this hard work just paid off. Like I just did all the steps on my own and just made me like become the openest I am now, I guess.
[00:25:38] Yeah, I feel like that is kind of a paradigm where, well, I mean, I've often mentioned how like I go to these places where there's very little climbing, even in the United States, you go into the Midwest or whatever. And there's there's little crags and just how like fiendish those climbers are like they have to be just so into it. And maybe that was a little bit of what happened to you.
[00:26:03] Plus, I mean, putting down a base of being able to trad and rock climb really well is something that I think a lot of like alpinists do miss out on. And they aren't as all around when they get down onto the rock. I mean, what are your thoughts on that? I mean, it was really great to have this base of like just being like super dialed in tread climbing and yeah, just being super comfortable on this. And then I didn't have as much ice climbing and mixed climbing experience as the others for sure.
[00:26:33] And like on this, I don't know when they selected us, I think it was like my third or fourth time ice climbing or mixed climbing. And we went to Chamonix. It was my first time in Chamonix. And I would just go on these routes and just lead whatever they asked me to lead because I was I had I've always had like a very strong head. And this is kind of what brought me where I am now because I was like not afraid. I was like, OK, you want me to mix? I'll do it. And yeah, that's how I got there.
[00:26:57] I think probably there's now moments where I'm more afraid than what I was then back then. Yeah. Well, you're aging out. Yeah, probably. Yeah, that's the weird that's the weird like thing is like more experience can sometimes, yeah, make brush away that naivete that you had about the danger. And all of a sudden you're like, wait, this is really risky or how did I survive that when I was 20 or whatever? So, yeah, that's pretty interesting. But I mean, the go for it, the strong head.
[00:27:27] I want to spend a little bit more on your childhood. Like, were your parents, you know, that into climbing? They were sort of obviously familiar with mountain sports, but did they understand what what little Carl was out there doing on those trad climbs and things like that? So they're mountain people, but they're not like into technical and neither mountaineering or like climbing. So I think at the beginning, they were probably not understanding that much what I was doing.
[00:27:52] But they just saw that I found my passion and they're like, OK, if this is your passion, we're going to support you. And it's so cool. Like my parents, they just really wanted me to be happy. And they saw that like climbing gave me something where I was really happy. And I didn't have like a really good time in school and stuff because I was just like so outdoorsy and like the other people in school, they couldn't understand. And so I wasn't treated well in school.
[00:28:17] And I was like this kid that was like not doing like not happy, like not having many friends in school. And then suddenly I found climbing and I kind of found something that was like really my passion and that gave me something. And that also gave me confidence. My parents, they told me once it really changed me, like from being this like shy and unsecure kid to someone that is like just confident and doing his stuff. And I was like, well, if you don't like me at school, I don't care. I'm just going to do my stuff. And if you want to like talk bullshit to me, I'm just like not going to listen.
[00:28:47] And it was really nice. And I think this is why they like supported me and gave me all these opportunities. And then at the beginning, I think they didn't like understand everything. And then they just grow with it because I was just like explaining them all the terms and what it means that when I send a route, when I unsight a route. I think at the beginning, I mean, they're like just not even coming. Like the language was like so strange. Yes, honey. That sounds great that you on flashed that one. That's great.
[00:29:18] Now do your homework. Let's talk a little bit about your own feelings about your abilities and your confidence. Because, yeah, it sounds like you've got this girl at that time, a teenager, who's just fiendish about finding her way. When did you start to feel like, you know, I'm actually a solid brick and climber.
[00:29:43] Like I can start not just dreaming about but acting on some of these big goals that I have. Like was that late in your teens? I mean, where were you when you were like, man, I could even be a professional? Well, I think there's like no like single moment where I'm like, okay, I'm going to become a professional. Like it's kind of all this process where you're kind of growing and growing into it.
[00:30:08] And I feel like definitely my first expedition going to Arconcago and it's like 16 years and like seeing that I could move in this terrain. I mean, it's not technical. It's pretty easy. It's just high altitude was really nice. And then I just came back and did like, at the beginning, I did like a lot of expeditions like in Eastern Europe or like Asia. Like went to put up a big wall in Albania or went to like climb in Iran and went to Armenia and all these countries and to put like up new routes there.
[00:30:38] And it was like amazing. And I think it all made me like grow and grow and grow. And then when I when I finished high school, I moved back to Switzerland. And then I was like, okay, I'll just choose the university that's the closest to Chamonix. And then I yeah, I just mainly moved to Lausanne and studied there. And then I was like really at one of the best places to like just know when conditions are good in Chamonix and go there or when conditions at the Aiger North Face are good. You could just go there.
[00:31:08] And I think at this point, yeah, I was really much getting into this like really alpine scene where I was like, okay, conditions are good. Okay, I'll go. And when I was also starting to like do more trips to like Patagonia and like, yeah, thinking about big Himalayan expeditions. I feel it all like kind of started when I finally finished like high school and got like the freedom to like just move wherever I wanted. And then I would like just do university work as little as I needed to go on my next expedition and then make it happen.
[00:31:38] I was like super focused on like climbing and expeditions. I feel like maybe I sometimes I missed out on like some other stuff and like maybe even like university party life. But I was just like so focused that I wanted to like climb and be out there and go on the next expedition. Did you finish university? I did. Okay, good job. Yeah. I have a bachelor's degree in environmental science. Okay, awesome. Yeah.
[00:32:05] No, the way you're talking about it, I was like, oh, I wonder if she just, you know, bailed eventually. But but you did it. No, I finished because I thought it was really interesting. And like in Switzerland, studying environmental science is a lot about the mountains. So we would spend a lot of time out in the mountains to understand how they're formed and stuff. So it's actually really interesting. I love that. So, you know, again, looking at your climbing life. And even you said it, like you speak all these languages.
[00:32:32] So you have you have this giant pool of possible partnerships. Is there anybody or any people who stand out in those years as as as like somebody that you were either learning from or climbing with on the reg or where you just moving around so much that it was a lot of different people?
[00:32:51] It's really funny because I think like sometimes I was wishing I would have climbed more with like even stronger people to not be always the one that has to have like the responsibility or like take the decisions or like. But I climb mainly like with people that were at my level. So we are both responsible for everything. But it makes you grow so much. But you always have to take responsibility too.
[00:33:15] And I mean, one like really big thing was that when I climbed Saro Toro, like the West Face, because it was like it's kind of a known route. So people understand what you've climbed. I feel like I've been to like very remote places, done like crazy stuff. Yeah, you said big wall in Albania. I was like, oh, of course. Exactly. And people just don't know and don't understand what does it mean. But it's like so much more like remote and everything. But then you say like, OK, Saro Toro in the West Face and everyone understands.
[00:33:45] And this is kind of where I made my the first time kind of like internationally a name because we're like a female team to like free climb Saro Toro. And we were both pretty young. I don't know. I was like 23 or something like that. And I climbed with Christina Huber. She was like one of the German girls as well on the team with me. So I climbed quite a bit with her at that time. And then and then afterwards, I met Brad Harrington in Patagonia. And we did quite a lot of like trips and expeditions together and put up routes together.
[00:34:13] And I think there was like one point in time where like we were sharing lots of stuff together and doing cool stuff. And this definitely helped. We worked really well together. It was like really fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like that you guys would be a good pair to be climbing together. And you continue to. I mean, you were in Sardinia together this year, if I recall. But yeah. So, I mean, it's just like, I don't know.
[00:34:39] You look at your kind of media and stuff and it's just I keep like on this like kind of whirlwind of and it just kept getting bigger and sort of faster, including like ski expeditions. I mean, you're you're you're a total hot shot on the skis as well. Also, of course, since you're from Europe, fly, throw a parachute up above your head occasionally and zip off into the wind, which is like, I don't know, it just seems like that's what you have to do. Yeah.
[00:35:05] So, I mean, it was like just this kind of like freight train of just doing all this amazing stuff and trying to combine it. And then you throw guiding into that. And so you you then also took your guide exams. Right. I feel like I'm really like psyched and motivated for my own projects. But I realized when I was just only doing my own projects, even I was like going super well and everything was like great. I wasn't happy. And I was like, I'm living my dream and I'm not happy. And then I realized that I'm a person.
[00:35:35] I have to do stuff for other persons, too. I cannot just only follow my dream. For me, it's kind of too egoistic. I was like always, I wish I could just do my stuff because it's great, but it just doesn't make me happy. And I like sometimes have to do stuff for other people. And with guiding, I found a really cool way because you open the doors to the mountains for people that were not able to do such kinds of routes without you. And like you help other people like realize their dreams. It's like really beautiful.
[00:36:04] And I just really like to also share my passion. I feel like I have such a passion about the mountains and climbing. I always see like it's like this fire inside me and I really like to share it with others. So this is how, yeah, I ended up guiding and like doing the guide course and being there. And yeah, doing the guide course, it sounds like super easy now. It was not easy. Like the guide course is hard and it's still hard to be a woman guide. I mean, there's like only one to two percent of women guiding. Okay, I was interested in that question.
[00:36:33] People who've gone through guide courses here in the United States, like I think don't realize like how much more competitive it is in Europe and always has been. And I was kind of curious, you know, I think we have a tendency or I have a tendency. I'll just say I have a tendency to think that, you know, the scene in Europe is like way more progressive, more open, more things like that. And yet talk to other, you know, Swiss, specifically Swiss female guides.
[00:37:02] And yeah, it's still a man's man's man's world, right? Yeah, exactly. Like mountain guiding. I think especially Switzerland is a really traditional country and we have like this big tradition of mountain guiding, which on one hand helps because people really respect that job. It's like a really well-respected job, what you're doing. But yeah, a mountain guide is supposed to be a man and kind of an older man with lots of experience. And then I rock up there.
[00:37:31] I'm a young woman and I have dreadlocks. And like, I definitely don't fit into this. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. And you're small-ish, you know, you're not like a big framed person. Yeah, because I was kind of thinking about that, not just getting into the scene or being accepted into the professional side of things, but also, I mean, probably meeting clients, you know, like if there's somebody who's expecting one thing.
[00:37:56] And a lot of times, like I think with guiding and especially like guiding specific things, mountains, trips, you know, people are like buying this, you know, into this sort of mythology or this legend or whatever. It's like, I'm going to go up with this Swiss guide or however you identify nationality-wise. And they expect like something and then you show up. I mean, has that ever been sort of a like, I mean, you just come in and whip them into shape and be like, yeah, too bad.
[00:38:26] Yeah, it definitely has happened to me, especially a lot when I was like an aspirant guide. Because when you're an aspirant, you don't have like your own clients yet that know you. So I worked a lot like for just guide services and I would do like, for example, these free ride camps and then you meet them in the evening before and the people that look at you and like, no, but we were expecting like a man guide. I'm like, well, I'm here now. And then they would ask me, and do you also go on glaciers? I'm like, yes, of course. And stuff like this. I'm like, wow.
[00:38:56] And then I figured that like I didn't need to talk. I was just like always then taking them out. And once I was like taking them out and they saw that I would do everything right in the mountains and I was like completely on it in the mountains, they would shut up. So I think the best thing was that. But I think it's still kind of a bit sad that as a woman, you first have to prove that you can do it. And as a man, it's just assumed you can do it. I mean, I can only imagine that.
[00:39:23] But again, I mean, we just had this like mixer last night in this museum that had these old, you know, these displays of the old guiding culture here, which I don't know if you noticed that. And, you know, it was like originally Swiss guides here in the Rockies that all the things of the freaking railroad like brought over to promote tourism, I think. I don't know how the railroad all fits into it. But yeah, and it's just like, yeah, these dudes, right?
[00:39:51] Just like lined up for miles and beards and pipes and manliness. And I think, like I said, a lot of times when people probably go into the Swiss Alps from a city, you know, they're like buying this mythology, like I said, as well. Yeah, for sure. I think it's still a big thing there. Yeah, you could show up in like a big long hoop dress and that stuff that women used to climb in back then, right? You should try that one of these days. Wow, that would be hard.
[00:40:21] Yeah, every once in a while someone puts together like a climb where they all try to wear the old timey stuff and ice climbing like a big dress and stuff like that. So, well, let's throw in this other skill that you at least have forced yourself to have or maybe it was part of your youth as well. But like the sailing, you've done, I think, more than one expedition that involves sailboats. Yeah, I've done a couple of expeditions that involve sailboats.
[00:40:50] And actually really funny, the first one was crossing the Drake Passage. That's kind of like one of the wildest waters. I used to sail a tiny bit when I was a kid with my parents, but not much. I wouldn't say that I got like so many skills with it. I was actually like not enjoying water so much. And then I kind of got the opportunity to go on a like ski sail expedition to Antarctica. And I was like, wow, this is cool. I want a new adventure. And this is something I don't know.
[00:41:18] And I even don't know how it's going to affect me. So it's going to be a great challenge. And I want a new challenge. So I was like, OK, yeah, sure. I'll come. I'll come to like sail like in one of the wildest waters you can sail. And then I just really enjoyed it. I really like I realized that I really like sailing when it's like tough sailing, when you have to be on it. And not when you don't like when it's like kind of boring sailing. So, yeah, I really enjoyed it. And then really got into it and was like, wow, this is a great way of moving.
[00:41:48] It's like it's super slow, but it also gives you a time to go. So like to get to this point. And I mean, it's a way of like it sometimes not taken plane, which is I thought great. Tell me about this this Drake Passage expedition. What was that all about? So the Drake Passage expedition was kind of like where were you going? We were going like on the to the Antarctic Peninsula.
[00:42:10] So we're like leaving Ushuaia and Tierra del Fuego, like the southernmost part of Argentina to go over there for skiing. And we like mainly just wanted to like sail through and scout places to ski. And the Drake Passage, you're like seven days out from Ushuaia. And it's like four days to crossing more or less. And you don't see any land. And you have just like massive waves. It's like really crazy because the swell gets so big.
[00:42:36] Like you have these like valleys of waves and then like it goes up and it's like bigger than the mast. It's like it's crazy. It was like super scary in a way. But I was like, OK, I'll just have to trust that the boat can't flip because we sailed there in like a 15 meter like sailboat. It's like you feel so small. But it's amazing. It's like, wow. I really loved it. God damn. Like that sounds so terrifying.
[00:43:04] Like and not like I mean, how do you sort of I guess it just becomes this sort of simmering fear after a couple days of like, well, we've got survived this long. But how do you like how do you just keep that up for that many days? Yeah, it's a good question. But I don't know for me at the beginning, I was really scared that the sailboat can flip over because I have this memory when I was like a kid. We were on a like sailing course with my sister in Bretagne in France.
[00:43:34] And then suddenly the wind and the storm came in and like our sailboat just flipped around. But it were these like tiny sailboats when you learn sailing. But so for me, in my head, like sailboats, they can flip around. And I was like so scared. And then at one point I was like, OK, I'll just have to trust that it's not going to flip around. If not, I'm going to be scared for the rest of the trip. And when I was like, OK, confident with this and like just trusting this from there on, it kind of worked. And I was like it was still super impressive.
[00:44:01] And but I really I think it's amazing to work together like with the force of nature, like the wind and to bring you somewhere. And also I had a really experienced skipper. And I think this is like the key for success and for like feeling safe. And was that like a thing? I mean, did you get invited on that? How did you actually end up on the boat? It was really funny.
[00:44:22] It was the idea of a photographer who had already been to Antarctica and he wanted to pitch the project to my sponsor at the time, Mahmoud. So this is kind of how we put the project together. And I was like, yeah, great. I want to do a trip like this. And I'm always in Argentina anyway. So let's do it. Make it happen. And this is how it happened. And actually, it was really funny because we were like all Swiss people and they're all like most of them were guides. I was an aspirant by this time and we had a filmer and a photographer.
[00:44:52] But we were not like super good friends before the trip. And I realized that if you go on a sailboat trip, you better go with your friends. For sure. Because you can't go anywhere. You're like stuck for months in a boat. And I mean, yeah, we would go and land for skiing. But then you're back on the boat and the weather is like really bad. The weather down there is bad. And sometimes you're like stuck on the boat for days and days. And you can't even like if you're in a base camp and want to be alone, you just walk like 100 meters, sit behind a rock and it's good. But on a sailboat, you can't. And this was really hard.
[00:45:22] I imagine that. I mean, this probably didn't happen. But in my mind, I saw sort of this cartoon of you all getting on like a glacier somewhere off the boat and like everyone scattering like in different directions. Yeah. Okay, let's take a little break. It couldn't happen. Yeah, it didn't happen. But yeah, definitely could have happened. Yeah, that's pretty well. Well, that's one thing to learn. How are you with like your sea legs and seasickness and things like that? I'm pretty good with seasickness. I don't get sick anymore on the boat.
[00:45:52] So it's great. But yeah, my like skiing partner, he was doing the guiding course with me and we were really good friends. And he was also so psyched on the expedition. But he was doing so bad on the boat. Poor guy. He was just like vomiting. As soon as we moved the boat, even if it was not like wild conditions, he was laying down and vomiting. So he didn't have a good time on the boat. Oh, man. No, I mean, that's just it's kind of like altitude. You either can sort of do it or you can't.
[00:46:20] You know, you can train for it or whatever. You can figure it out. But yeah, that's that's intense. I mean, that I mean, I just love this. I mean, and I think everyone listening is just like, she just goes for it. Has there been tell me a story or if there maybe there isn't one where like you went forward in it and you did go too far. Like you, you know, I don't want to say failure, but tell me a story where like, you know, the phrase when you eat too much is, you know, your eyes were bigger than your stomach.
[00:46:47] But did you ever outpace your your abilities or get yourself into a situation where you were like, oh, yeah, maybe this wasn't a good idea? Yeah, I feel maybe like not in a situation where I'm like super outpaced. But I mean, there's millions and millions of times when I had to turn around, like you try something and then you have to turn around because either it's too hard or it's too big or the weather is not good. Conditions are not good. You're not feeling good. I feel like, yeah, when we're talking like this, it always sounds like everything goes right.
[00:47:17] No way. Like so much can go wrong and so many times we turn around. Like, I mean, before climbing Cerro Toro, like it took me three years. I attempted it during three years. And the first year I climbed like up to like three pitches before the summit and had to turn around because we're just too slow. I was like 21 by that time. It was like, yeah, I didn't have so much experience and I was just slow and it was getting dark and I was like too scared to lead like the very tricky last mushroom pitches in the dark and we turned around.
[00:47:46] Next year I came back and the weather was so bad that we didn't even get to try it. So I was like, oh, well. And we like did this big rescue mission and yeah. And it was crazy. It also like showed me how like, yeah, how wild this place is and like how you have to go with respect. I think something that is like kind of really important for me is like I'm never like going to like conquer a mountain.
[00:48:10] And like I go there because I feel like a connection to the mountain and I feel we need like to have like kind of like a connection to the mountain to climb there. And it's never like conquering or fighting against the mountains. And then, yeah, Cerro Toro, I had to come back a third year to finally have the chance to climb it. And I mean, other people have to come back even more to climb it. How do you process those disappointments or anything like that?
[00:48:35] I mean, are you pretty good at turning the page and moving on or are you, you know, do you scream obscenities at the wind? But like, yeah, what do you like when the chips are down and it is a disappointment or things are hard? So Cerro Toro was kind of the first time where turning around was really hard for me because we were like we were there. Like, I mean, at the moment it was clear for me to turn around and we wrapped down and we slept. And then you have like two and a half days to walk out.
[00:49:03] So you have like two and a half days just walking straight thinking about what just happened. And there it was really hard because it's like, fuck, I got the chance to like nearly climb to the summit of Cerro Toro. Who knows if I ever get to some weather, good weather window again. Why didn't I make it? And there it was like really hard and it was like frustrating. And I think I'm just the person who's like, OK, I'll just come back. And like the thing for me often is like, OK, I'll just make it happen to come back and then it will work out.
[00:49:29] But yeah, sometimes I get frustrated and I feel like, I don't know, I've also learned with the time that what we're doing is like involves quite a lot of risk. So I don't think that I've ever like been like super mad or like about turning around because I think it's just part of it. But I'm not going to lie. Sometimes I'm like sad and I'm like frustrated and you've put so much energy into it. And then it doesn't work out and it's hard and it takes time.
[00:49:58] And I think when I'm like this, something that I keep more to myself and probably it would be better to like share it with people sometimes and talk about it. But I'm not the best about this. But I'm learning. Just going forward. You're like, I'll just put it behind me. No, I think like I've been like really also like trying to work with everything and like kind of digest everything because I feel like for me a big turning point was like around 2017 or something like this.
[00:50:27] I had done like so many expeditions and I was like quite tired. And then I had many friends around me dying. And there was a point where I was like, I don't know if I can continue with this. I don't know if I can still do guiding. I don't know if I can still go into the mountains. It was like everything was too much. I was like scared every time I got into the mountains. It was too hard to process like all these like traumatic things happening. And then I was like, I started working with professionals.
[00:50:53] Like I started working with like sports psychologists and everything. And it helped me to come back and to realize, well, this is what I love and this is my passion. I'm still keep going it. But I think I learned two things. And one is like not to be shy to talk about these feelings and not to be shy to work with professionals. I think this is something which in kind of alpinism where like alpinists should be heroes has been a taboo for very long.
[00:51:21] And not many people, still not many people do it. But like, I mean, we have like friends dying from time to time. And I feel like you need help. Like you have to talk to professionals. And I also learned that sometimes I need time to rest. Because when I was younger, I was just going for it, going for it, going for it. And now I realized like not only my body, but also my head needs rest. Because all the stuff when you're like doing first ascends, big climbs, it's like really like committing.
[00:51:48] So your head gets tired and you have to give your head time to rest. So I'm definitely not like I was like, I don't know, five, six, seven years ago, where it's like from one trip into the other. And now I'm like, okay, I'll do one big expedition a year, maybe two. But in between, I need like off time or where like go sport climbing or something like that. Like relaxed climbing, you know, where you don't have to like use your head so much. Well, that's really interesting to me.
[00:52:16] And I'm glad we kind of got here because honestly, like my initial questioning about like this freight train, this like going forward, full throttle, which... Because I've like looked at your resume, as it were, or your trip reports. And I'm like, well, this one happened, then this one happened, then this one happened, then this one happened. I'm like, where is time for anything else? And I think, yeah, maybe you realize that as well, like that there hadn't been time for anything else. Yeah, definitely.
[00:52:46] And any time for reflection either. You just mentioned a rescue kind of situation that you were involved in. And that would have been like, what, like 2014? Because you did Sarah Toria in 2015. So, I mean, how serious was that? I mean, I came there and it was pretty serious because two other women, they had fallen down like super canaletta, which is like a big climb on Fitzroy, like for 300 meters. And we just came there later and they're like injured.
[00:53:13] And like, wow, it was crazy because you're so far out. And we just started like carrying, pulling them out for like the first bit. And until then, like people from the CAX, which is like the Comisión de Auxilios, so the people that do like the voluntary rescue in Chalten met us. And then we all together carried them out. And yeah, it was a big thing. And it was definitely my first rescue I got in touch with in El Chalten. And now I'm just like a big part of the rescue system there. And it's still like all voluntary.
[00:53:42] So like people from the village, they'll leave their work and hike into the mountains to rescue you. And I think it's like amazing, impressive. But yeah, it's also good to have this in mind. Like there's no helicopter rescue. There's like no professional rescue. It's just like the people from the village and like helping you. I don't know if you even know the name Mark Twight in the world anymore. Young alpinists know who Mark was, is, was as a climber, is as a person.
[00:54:11] You know, his time in Chamonix, at least the way he told it, was very punctuated by the same thing about like friends and just people in the mountains dying, kind of like clockwork, right? I mean, I get the impression it's either that was a bad era or it's just not like that anymore. But, but is it? I mean, is, is like this kind of, whether it's climbers or paragliders or face jumpers or whoever,
[00:54:41] I mean, is it like sort of a constant thing that's on people's mind the same way it may have been like, and in his case, it was like the 90s, I think. Hmm. I think it might be still a bit less because we have like better rescues, but there were these years, like luckily last year, like we didn't have any one dying in like child 10, but the two years before there were like three or four death people per season. And this was like scary. This was like horrible.
[00:55:10] And then you're like, then it's like all the time on your mind. Because I mean, I've been like on the, all these rescues and we have also like recovered bodies and it's really hard. And then you're like, huh, I don't know if I should go into the mountain or if it's just too risky. And I think it's important to reflect and to think about it and to try also to learn out of others' faults. But sometimes it's not fault. Sometimes it's just like, yeah, stones falling or whatever.
[00:55:39] But yeah, for me, there's definitely times where I like, also I'm like, okay, I don't feel it right now. Even so, if everybody else is going to go, I'm just not going to go. But I just, because I'm just, I just don't feel it and I don't want to be exposed to risk. And like two years ago when so many people died and I had just come back from my really big Greenland expedition, I was like so tired in my mind. I didn't want to like take risks. So I was like, okay, even if there's a weather window, I'll just climb something small.
[00:56:06] Or then I just headed out of Jotan and went on another sailing trip where I was just sailing a boat around the coast of Argentina. Because I was like, I don't feel like taking that risk right now. Yeah, I've talked to so many climbers, right, at this point. And I find these, you know, these kind of relative comparisons between people. But not just with climbing, but it's kind of life. And there's an arc of, that's, I mean, it's archetypal.
[00:56:32] It's mythological, this arc from kind of innocence to experience. And I've found that climbing and especially alpine climbing can be this very accelerated version of this, right? Where a lot of times many people in their normal lives don't encounter like death close to them, you know, till quite a bit later in life. You know, there's accidents that happen with cars and things like that.
[00:57:01] But like, you know, your family members just grow older and then you start to deal with it. But it's very accelerated and it sounds like it was very accelerated for you to be this like go-getter, you know, kid. Like literally, you know, just one amazing, what I always say on the podcast, my line is the best day ever, right? Or another best day ever, which I got from Indian Creek. You know, every day down there it's like people come back to the fire and it's like another best day ever.
[00:57:29] But yeah, you had some of that. And then like there was these things that started to kind of maybe poke holes in this image. And it sounds like in 2017 that was kind of like there'd been enough holes poked that you were like, okay, wait a second. And that's, but you're like, I mean, how old were you in 2017? About. Huh, 25, 26. Yeah.
[00:57:51] So here you are an old 26, you know, in a sense, you know, because that's what ages us, this realization about the world. Yeah. So I don't know if there's anything left to say about that period that you didn't already say earlier. But where did you kind of come out on the other side? Like what did you, what changed about the way you were piling these expeditions on or accepting invitations or pushing towards your own goals?
[00:58:20] Yeah, I think it just made me more mature. And it made me realize that I definitely don't want to like die. Like I'm not going into the mountains to die. I'll not like, for me, it's like not the summit is not above everything. And I don't want to like have my parents, my family, my partner, my friends have to go to this like really sad and hard moment.
[00:58:43] So this is something where it's like, okay, there's something very much way more important than climbing, which are like my friends and like spending time with them. And then I realize, okay, I'll just, I know that it's not zero risk. And I know it's my passion that keeps me like alive, but like keeps me kind of like fire to my life and like kind of a purpose to my life. But I think I just realized that there's also times where I'm like not going to take risk.
[00:59:12] And yeah, I definitely slowed down like on the rhythm of my expeditions. On one hand, for not being taking risk all the time, then to be able to rest, to be able to spend time with my friends. And yeah, I think it's really good. And also like to have time to reflect on what I've just done. I feel like before it was like kind of consuming, like one trip after the other. And you even don't have time to like reflect on it and like kind of live all what you've experienced.
[00:59:39] And I think it's really cool to like after a trip, have the time and come down. I really know that after a trip, often I have like, I'm like nearly like, I don't know, depressed or something like this because you come back so tired. And you have just lived like such a like strong experience. And suddenly you come back and you're like, and now? And it's like this big kind of void. I've noticed too, is there's like spending time with friends, but there's quality time. And that's like a cliche word.
[01:00:06] But, you know, if there's like a few weeks, days, whatever, after a trip, and then you switch to planning for the next trip, you suddenly are as a friend or a family member or a partner, you know, romantic partner, whatever it happens to be. You're remote for those weeks when you got back, because half your head's still on the expedition, thinking about the disappointment or whatever happened.
[01:00:33] And then all of a sudden your head is in, how are we going to get this next one going? There's no, there's like no middle period if there's not enough time between these trips. I mean, does that make sense to you? Yeah, definitely. It makes sense. And for a long time, like I wasn't able to like give me that time because I think I have like really high expectations with myself and I sometimes put pressure on myself too.
[01:00:55] And the process of learning and accepting, there's also time in between where you have to like calm down and like rest and start training again. Yeah, it's a process, but yeah, you definitely need it. I need it at least. Right. Right. So this expedition that it was, you did an article on Alpinists, this kind of piqued my interest and you have this film.
[01:01:18] We should get to that because I mean, A, it's a pinnacle in the sense that it was sort of the, in some ways, the latest, greatest thing. Although by now you've probably done a whole bunch of other rad shit that afterwards. But anyway, this is a big deal. And it also seemed to combine a lot of all these years of you becoming this experienced expedition.
[01:01:42] I don't know if you were the leader, but like, you know, someone who's in the mix planning, conceiving the idea. You know, you went sailing, you went rock climbing, you had to cross the glaciers. Like it kind of feels like it was a culmination of so many things. So tell us about that expedition here. Um, you know, as succinctly as, as you'd like to. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you're definitely right. It's definitely like the biggest expedition I've ever done.
[01:02:10] Even so I've been to other places, but it's just like, it's a three month expedition and we plan for this expedition for two years. So it was like a big thing. So our plan was to like starting in France and sail from France to Greenland, open a big world route there and sail back. Yeah. Seems reasonable. Like, yeah, right. I mean, when you say it like that. Yeah. We, we sailed there. We climbed a big wall. We sailed back. Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah.
[01:02:38] But the idea was like boring. When I talked to my friend, Marta, she's like a captain. And so we were working on a sailboat together with these like travel kids in France. I was working as a guide. She was working as the captain. And then I was like, I really want to like go to Greenland on a sailboat. I don't want to fly there. I just want to like do the whole adventure and get there with the winds and not taking a plane. She's like, yeah, great. Let's do it. I've, I've been doing it with other like climbers, but they were only staying from Iceland.
[01:03:08] And I would love to do like the whole trip. And I was like, no, no. I want to do the whole trip. And then it took us like a year to get kind of a group together for like others that were motivated and had the time. Because I mean, you needed like three months. We were calculating like one month to sail there, one month to climb there and one month to sail back. And I had like two girlfriends that got super psych like climbers to come with me pretty fast. And then Marta found some sailors.
[01:03:36] And at the beginning, she's like, I'm sure we're not going to be able to like find an all women team. Because, yeah, expedition sailing is super male, a dominant and like expeditions and climbing a bit too. But then suddenly we happened to be like eight girls, like pulling all into the same direction. So it was like three climbers, four sailors and a photographer who was supposed to do a movie. Like she's like badass. I mean, she had never made a movie before.
[01:04:02] And in six months, she learned like how to fly drones and how to film and how to do a movie. Yeah. And then we like during one year, we tried to find like funding. We tried to find a boat. It's not so easy to find a boat if you want to skipper your own boat and you're going to like cross the polar circle. And you're going to like be navigating in between icebergs. Like normally people, they're only going to give you the boat if they're like on it. Right. Or like skippering themselves out. Yeah, it's the keys to their boat. They're not just going to toss you. Yeah, sure. We'll see you in three months. Yeah, exactly.
[01:04:32] You know, don't forget to vacuum it out when you get back. Everyone is kind of aware that it's like rough seas where you want to sail. So it was really hard to find a boat. Well, it sounds expensive. Yeah, it was. Yeah. It's definitely expensive. Not as expensive because we found like a guy that was really like supporting our project. Oh, cool. And I thought it was a great idea. And also we did lots of work on the boat. So actually we paid him rent to like get his boat.
[01:04:57] But we also like made everything like worked so much on the boat to like get it in shape for such a kind of expedition. So yeah, on one hand, we had to prepare like the whole boat thing. On the other hand, we had to prepare the climbing. So we trained quite a bit like in France, like big wall climbing. How would you do it with all the logistics? What are we going to take? And then on the other side, we'd like learn shooting because like, yeah, you have these polar bears. You have to carry a gun.
[01:05:22] So like, yeah, it was like really big, like preparations in so many different like areas. And I'd never done something like this big before where you were like preparing so many different things. Yeah, because normally, right, you are a lot of times you'd have an outfitter that took care of that kind of stuff and had the experience with the polar bears, maybe even local outfitters, you know. And again, guys generally.
[01:05:48] I would imagine that's almost 100% when you, if you land on Greenland and use a local outfitter. So now you're making up for that with your own, you probably have to learn about the nature of a polar bear and why and where it would be and where it would come. And yeah, that sounds, I mean, did anyone have experience with that stuff, with Arctic, like polar bear kind of, and other, whatever, other things that you run into up there?
[01:06:15] No, I think none of us had like any experience with like polar bears or stuff. But yeah, we all prepared for it and it was good because we saw that. So, all right, let's do the getting there. Like, how did it go? You pile onto the boat. Fuck, it was so hard. You're all like just, you know, beach balls and bikinis, I'm sure, right? It was so hard.
[01:06:39] Somehow we had to summer, it was like really, really bad weather where like there was like one low pressure system after the other, like rolling in and we knew like the year before, like Nico and Sean, like the Belgians, they had sailed there in 13 days from France. And we're like, in three weeks you can normally get from like France to Greenland pretty easily. So we calculated four weeks to be like, to have enough time.
[01:07:04] And then we just like got stuck in so many places because like there were like so strong winds that we couldn't get into sea. So we had to wait in harbors. So the first time was already in Dublin. The second time was on the Faroe Islands. Then the third time was on Iceland. So we're like losing so much time. And we, on the Faroes, honestly, no one of us knew if we would be able to like get to Greenland or not. What's that place like? There's nothing.
[01:07:33] It's just raining all the time. It's green. There's nothing to climb. There's like some sheeps. I mean, it was really nice to see on like the first and second day and to discover. And then you're like, oh, I wish I was in a place where at least I could climb a bit or something. Is there any booze? Is there what? Was there any booze? Ah, yeah. You're like, we're out of wine already. Yeah. I mean, I think the big thing on our boat was like probably cheese and chocolate. We were definitely a French boat.
[01:08:02] Like we carried so much cheese and chocolate. Yeah, some French wine too. Cool. But you made it. Yeah. It took us six weeks. It was crazy. But so this meant that we only had like 10 days in Greenland because we had to go back before like, we were like, we had to leave mid-August to be back. You had to return the boat. To return the boat. And also like just like this big storms forming like in September. So you want to be back before the storm. So we couldn't like extend that. So it only 10 days on land.
[01:08:32] And it rained for like two or three days straight. Like we had really bad weather. And then we had this like three and a half days weather window. And we wanted to like open a big wall on a wall that had never been climbed before. And we're like, okay, we'll just try it. Honestly, we were all like, no, nobody saw that we like ever climbed this wall. I mean, it was so hard to get there. And then, yeah, only bad weather when we were there. And we're like, okay, we'll just try to get as high as we can.
[01:09:02] And then like we climbed for two days. And then on the third day, we knew that bad weather, like a storm was coming in. So like, okay, at midday, we have to turn around. It doesn't matter if we're at the summit or not. And then we topped out of the wall at noon, like midday. So it's like, it was magic. We couldn't believe it. Like we really couldn't believe it that we had made it up there. And yeah, it was super beautiful. Like climbing such a wall after like all the hassles that we had before,
[01:09:29] because we had like lots of stuff breaking on the boat too. Sure. Yeah. No, it's, yeah. Sailing is, yeah. Yeah. I've been chatting a lot with my friend Mark Sinat, who's on a long, long, and he's just like, Jesus, you have no idea. Like I'm always laying on my back in like seawater. Exactly. Messing with, yeah, and oil and diesel fuel and like whatever else. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's, but it's like wild that you guys,
[01:09:57] you guys went on this three month expedition for two and a half days of rock climbing. Yeah, it's pretty crazy, right? Imagine like how much patience do you need? Like I really trained my patience on this trip. And I think it only worked out because we were such a great team. We're like so good friends and we're like all pulling into the same direction. We're just like a dream team. I think if not, we would have abandoned already on the fairy island. Because like, yeah, we were just like trying to have fun.
[01:10:24] And if one person wasn't good, the others were pulling into the direction. They'd been like, bye, like, let's go, carousel land. Let's get out of here. She's driving us fucking crazy. You come down and you're just like, the boat's like a little speck on the horizon. You're like, oh. So you get back in the boat. Okay. Rushing from the summit. High fives. Yeah. And like, I'm sure you're like going back to the boat. Like, oh my God, we were getting back on the fucking boat already. Like. Yeah.
[01:10:54] So on one hand, we were happy to see our sailor friends again because they had stayed on the boat. And at the other hand, I was like, how can it be possible? I like came here by sailboat and I only got like eight days in this valley, which is like so beautiful. But I wish I could just stay and climb. Right. And then we went back onto the boat and actually like the trip back was still like really hard. And it took us again like four weeks to get back. All right. Wait. Did you tell me the polar bear part? Oh, yeah.
[01:11:22] So the polar bear just, wow. It was pretty crazy. We were like carrying the gun all the time with us. We didn't see any polar bear. And then suddenly we're like having our breakfast on the beach. And suddenly I was like facing my friend and her eyes get really big. And I was like, oh no, I know something is happening. And then I turn around and like, I don't know, just 50 meters behind me. There's this like polar bear like coming out of the water onto the beach. And then it was like like in a movie, you know, like you look at the bear, the bear looks at you.
[01:11:51] And you're both like so surprised and scared. And I don't know like how much time happened. Like the bear looking as we looking at the bear, like the bear was 50 meters away. The gun was in the tent, like 100 or 200 meters away. So like, fuck, what are we going to do? So we like trying to like walk backwards to like make bigger distance. And then my friend, she just started screaming, the bear, the bear, the bear. So that the two others would realize too. And the bear got scared and ran away. So we were super lucky. But wow, it's so scary.
[01:12:21] It's so scary to see like an animal that could kill you. I mean, we're not so, we're not used to that. Yeah, they're super dangerous. Wow. And so close. And I mean, we had trained for it and we were carrying the gun all the time. And then one time when it's in the tent, the animal is just closer to us than the gun. And I mean, we all didn't want to like kill the bear. Like I think none of us were like, we're entering in his space. So we don't want to. We're just like having it like for the very, very worst case.
[01:12:50] So yeah, it was a, it was a crazy experience. And we ended up the next night doing like shifts because we were scared that it was going to come back. And so we're like doing this like two and a half hour shifts, each of us sitting there with the gun looking for the bear. And it was pouring rain. So like we were putting on our sailing clothes, sitting in the rain, waiting. The bear never came.
[01:13:12] It was really funny because Ramona, the photographer, she got quite scared because she had seen all these like movies of bears attacking like the filmer, the photographer, because it's always the one that's a bit apart from the group. And so we were like, okay, you should shoot so that you're like confident on your shooting. And we put like one of these like track and eat, like these like packages of the food. They're pretty small, like 40 meters in wide. And we're like, okay, you shoot. And she hit it. And from there on she was like fine because she knew she could like shoot.
[01:13:41] And it was like really funny. She was definitely the best one shooting. She'd probably seen that Werner Herzog movie. You know, the one about the grizzly man. You ever seen that? Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Yeah. So now like bring us home. Like you get back on the boat and it's... And we get back on the boat. The girls have had like an epic because they had the engine breaking down during we were on the wall. While we were on the wall, we got like messages. We don't know if we can pick you up again.
[01:14:12] Maybe we have to get towed to like Denmark or we have to get towed somewhere and we can't pick you up anymore. And we're like, okay, fine. We're in the middle of Greenland. No one is going to pick us up. And then we're like, okay, we'll concentrate on our climb and we'll figure it out afterwards. That polar bear did look tasty. Yeah. And then the girls, super strong, they like with the help of other like sailboats coming by, they managed to like make the engine work again. But so now for turning on the engine, we always had to like jump two cables.
[01:14:42] So it was like crazy. And they're like, we have to leave the fjord as fast as possible because yeah, in the fjord, you can't not like sail with the sails off because there's not many winds. And as soon as we're out in the sea, we don't need the engine. So like we have to go back as fast as possible. And we were like, fuck, we have to carry all our gear out. And like we need at least two days to carry our gear down because it's like so much. So they gave us one day more to be able to carry our gear down. And they're like, okay, let's go on the boat again.
[01:15:11] And then like for the first 10 hours, they're like, okay, you girls just sleep real minute and then you get back to your shift. And then after like eight hours, we had like the next storm coming in and the boat was like really hard to handle. And so we're like, okay, we're jumping back into it. And yeah, it started again. And it was like, it was like pretty good sailing to like Iceland. And then in Iceland, there were like these really big storms. And so we were stuck another 10 days on Iceland. And we didn't know if we want to get home.
[01:15:39] Like at one point we were starting to look, maybe we can get home by train and bus and leave the boat here and come next year. And the fishermen are already telling us, girls, you have to start sailing. Because if not, it's going to like all the storms are going to roll. And we're like, yeah, but we can't. It's like too stormy. And it was like the boat was kind of getting pushed off the deck, the docks by the wind. And like we had to pull three of us on the lines to like be able to get on the dock. It was like crazy wind.
[01:16:07] And then, yeah, luckily 10 days later, we got the window to sail like all the way to France. And we made it to just like Bretagne, which was like 48 hours north of the harbor where we had to sail to. And we were stuck again for like three or four days, like just 48 hours north of where we had to go. And this was really hard. Like you're already in France, but you're still not at home and you still have to wait. And it was like, wow. Yeah. It was like kind of a never ending story of the trip, like the waiting, the patience and like the bad weather.
[01:16:37] Crazy. What are you doing? Like what's your waiting game? Are you reading books? You're writing. You're playing Uno. Like what's your... I think I'm the person like I have to train like to like be calm. Like I have to like take the energy out of me. Just running around in circles. Yeah. Kind of. Coming buildings. Yeah. We had like... Doing pull-ups on logs. Exactly. Exactly. We got creative and we had like stuff to train on board.
[01:17:02] And like as soon as we were like getting on land, I was just going on these big runs to like, yeah, let all this energy go. But I think for me, it's really hard to be so patient and be on the boat. But yeah, it's part of it. Awesome. But obviously a trip of a lifetime. Oh, for sure. And when we all arrived in Greenland, we're like all, ah, we don't want to like get on a sailboat again. Like, wow, we're so happy to be there. And like, yeah, I have...
[01:17:29] You kind of forget and then it just gets interesting again and you rest. And yeah, I've been on other sailboat trips now. Yeah, I'll definitely do it again. And I'm sailing to Greenland next summer again. Okay. Back to the same spot, a new spot. A new spot. Okay. And also this time we're sailing from Iceland. So it's going to be short. You're like, we did that. Exactly. Let's do the other way. Well, I mean, God, I mean, even this podcast has felt like a whirlwind, right? Of trying to get it all in. How old are you now?
[01:17:59] I'm 33. Oh my God, you're so old. I mean, it's an interesting place to be, I think. 33. I mean, it's the Jesus year for one thing. You talked a little bit again about something that I hear a lot of people say is that like, well, you know, I slowed down and I try to like look at the risks differently and things like that. But sometimes I think, well, that's just a comfortable illusion, you know, because you
[01:18:23] still are going into this world on the regular that has a million objective dangers. So you can be the most experienced, make the best calls, you know, but there's no magic bullet to make sure a hundred percent that you are going to, you know, happily pass away in your sleep at 80. So like, you know, when you said you had sort of a, of a, of a watershed in your like 25,
[01:18:50] 26, like where are you now with, with your life, um, with your pace, um, and with the other opportunities in your life for, again, relationships outside of climbing with family, friends, things like that. Yeah. I feel like, I mean, I've settled down way more, even so it still feels like I'm moving around a lot, but I, I mean, spending like seven months in Patagonia, owning a house there and then five months back in the Alps, it's already like way more settled down than what
[01:19:20] I was before. Like before I was just living out of my van and going everywhere all the time. And it's not that much anymore the case. I'm also like in a stable relationship with my partner. And like for a very long time, I just didn't have like any relationship because I was like, I want to be free. I want to do everything. And it feels really good. And it's kind of like given another pace, I think also to my life and something really beautiful. This is also why I'm like climbing a lot in Patagonia now.
[01:19:49] And like, I'm like super psyched about like all these different places of Patagonia where no one has been because child 10 has become like super known and many climbers coming there. And I'm like so into like discovering and exploring the places of Patagonia where not so many people go. And this has been like way more my interest right now than like going back to the Himalayas and stuff like this where you always have to like travel far, take the plane. I was like, I feel like I'm like in so wild places where I can like still explore so much around me.
[01:20:19] So this has been like way more my focus right now. And also like doing this like sailing expeditions, the pace is just slower than if you like go somewhere. And I think this is like where it's kind of where I am at the moment. And it's like my pace is like so much slower than before I feel. And I'm still like super psyched and I still have so many dreams. But I feel like I also choose more consciously like, okay, now I'm going on this trip. I'm going to focus for it. I'm going to train for it.
[01:20:48] I'm going to do it. And I'm not that much anymore. Someone asked me, do you want to come? Okay, I'll just go. Like I think more about it. I'm like, do I really want to go? Do I really want to go with this person? Because I feel like trips are only like super successful. And if you go with friends, if you go with people that you get along with, because I'm like a super like social person and emotional. But I just need to be with my friends to like do crazy stuff. So yeah, trying to put all of this together.
[01:21:18] So I just mentioned passing away in your sleep at 80. Like, could you see yourself as an old woman in Patagonia? Like, is that do you think that's like the final home? Oh, for sure. Yeah. I don't know what's going to happen. Yeah. You never know. But I mean, I bought a house there and I definitely could see myself like when I'm older, just settling down there and like being part of the community there and like taking it like way slower.
[01:21:46] I mean, the pace there is definitely way slower than when I'm back home in Switzerland. Well, you could be the you could become the old female version of Rolo. I mean, your name fits. Kara, right? Yeah. Yeah. Or, you know, it's like, oh, we got to go talk to her, though, before we she's been here forever. Yeah, maybe. Don't go up there without talking to her. I mean, right? Well, that's big footsteps to step into. Thank you. You're on your way, don't you think?
[01:22:16] Maybe. All right, folks. Thanks for listening.
[01:22:43] And thanks to Carl for showing up in my sweet ass hotel room in Banff. Kind of an old school normal cast. I used to do a lot of these things in hotel rooms, often much more dingy hotel rooms than what was provided up at Banff. We loved our hotel room. My wife and I really enjoyed it, partially because our child was not there. It was funny, though. Carl was roaming around with Sean, Villanueva, O'Driscoll, with Nico Favres, Siba Van Hee
[01:23:13] was there and was a little bit hard to get any of those people to fix an appointment. You know, they were having fun climbing and doing all the things you can do in Banff. But again, thanks to Carl for making it happen. You can follow Carl on the Instagram at Carl North Official. She also has a website, caronorthalpinist.com, where you can find information about her guiding.
[01:23:41] You can also see all of her media, including some blog posts that are relatively up to date for a professional climber blog. You usually go back to professional climber blogs and, you know, you'll see a post from like 2018. This is the last time anybody wrote anything. But Carl's got some stuff about that expedition to Greenland, some links to some movies, all kinds of stuff to add to your knowledge about Carl.
[01:24:07] Okay, one other little note about what's coming up on the EnormaCast. I got a lot of strong women interviews in line right now. Some heavy stuff, some powerful stuff. And I just wanted to mention that. It's a bit of a dedication that I did a few years ago. It doesn't always work out. There's just a lot more dudes out there. But yeah, we're going to have a streak of strong women coming up. So I hope you guys enjoy that.
[01:24:34] Remember, you can support the EnormaCast by telling your friends about it, the up-and-comers. Also, you can go to the website and buy a little bit of merch. There's some stickers and some koozies. Silly stuff, but still. You know, it helps promote. It pays for itself. Support our sponsors. And of course, if you really are feeling it, you can always go to the website and donate. What does your money get you? Just the satisfaction of supporting the podcast that you love. Okay, it's May.
[01:25:05] Why not go outside and go climbing? And of course, check your knots. When you follow your bliss, and by bliss I mean the deep sense of being in it
[01:25:34] and doing what the push is out of your own existence, you follow that and doors will open where you would not have thought there were going to be doors and where there wouldn't be a door for anybody else. There's something about the integrity of a life, and the world moves in and helps. Thank you.