Enormocast 297: Paul “PK” Kuenn – The Dairylander

[00:00:00] You are listening to The Enormocast

[00:00:04] If there's one name associated with sending and mind-bending, it's Chris Calouse

[00:00:10] Uh, cut, cut. I don't think anyone's gonna buy that dude

[00:00:15] Well, it's been a hard week. I just thought I'd bump you a little bro

[00:00:19] Thanks buddy, but let's stick to the script, okay?

[00:00:22] Alright, roll it again. But remember, I love you dude

[00:00:26] I love you too

[00:00:28] If there's one name associated with sending and mind-bending, it's Adam Andra

[00:00:33] Andra

[00:00:34] And now, Sportiva has released the latest in its grand parade of legendary climbing shoes

[00:00:40] The Andra Comp

[00:00:42] Developed step by meticulous step by the man himself, Adam Andra

[00:00:47] Second skin fit

[00:00:49] Rubber everywhere for all types of hooks, heels and viral reels

[00:00:54] Unparalleled smearing and grip performance for those giant volumes

[00:00:59] But with outstanding support even on the smallest holds indoors and out

[00:01:03] Grip into the end

[00:01:06] How does the Andra Comp do it?

[00:01:08] Well, if you have to ask, you'll never know

[00:01:11] But it is a valid question, don't get me wrong

[00:01:13] The best idea is to slip into a pair yourself

[00:01:16] Leap at the wall like a parkour kitten and feel those Andra vibes

[00:01:20] Check out Sportiva.com or your favorite gym pro shop for the Andra Comp

[00:01:25] And the endless innovation from your friends at Sportiva

[00:01:38] Do you hear that?

[00:01:40] Do you know what that sound is?

[00:01:42] Well, while you and your crew scuttled off to the shade for some burns on the prod like so many mole rats

[00:01:48] Your rack of post-sen libations or sad sack failure drinks as the case may be

[00:01:53] Are sitting in your increasingly scolding rig feeling the heat

[00:01:57] And no, that Whole Foods foil cooler bag they guilted you into buying is not going to cut it

[00:02:02] Luckily for you and your friends, Yeti has the answer for day-tripping sipping

[00:02:07] The Roadie 15 cooler

[00:02:10] Yeti's most compact hard-sided cooler

[00:02:12] The Roadie 15 has a slim shape for behind the seat or getting tucked in with the gear

[00:02:16] But still ample room inside for cold drinks and vittles for yet another best day ever at the crag

[00:02:22] And of course, the Roadie 15 cooler is built by Yeti

[00:02:25] So it will last practically until the burning orb in the sky goes supernova and vaporizes everything and everyone

[00:02:35] Let's just hope you've sent the prod by then

[00:02:37] Am I right there one hang Johnny?

[00:02:40] So do yourself and your thirsty friends a favor and level up your Opry Grimpe

[00:02:44] With a Yeti Roadie 15 cooler by going to Yeti.com to find your local Yeti dealer

[00:02:51] And remember, gifting a Roadie 15 cooler to your best bud this holiday season

[00:02:56] Just means more cold send beers for you too

[00:03:01] Listen, where are you playing in town?

[00:03:03] Are you playing here?

[00:03:04] We're doing the Normo Dome, whatever it is

[00:03:07] It's terrific

[00:03:07] Oh yeah, big place outside of town

[00:03:09] That's a big place

[00:03:10] You sold it out

[00:03:11] I'll say

[00:03:11] What the hell are you doing?

[00:03:15] I couldn't sleep

[00:03:18] I'm checking the ropes

[00:03:20] There was a frayed end on your rope

[00:03:22] And I'm cutting it out

[00:03:24] Bad weather

[00:03:35] Bad weather

[00:03:36] Bad weather

[00:03:36] Now or later, anytime

[00:03:39] Today's show is brought to you by Black Timon Equipment

[00:03:42] La Sportiva

[00:03:43] And with support from Maxim Ropes

[00:03:46] Maxim has been keeping the Normo cast off the deck since 2012

[00:03:50] And now, we can also thank the chill folks at Yeti

[00:03:54] And don't forget our charter sponsor, Bonfire Coffee

[00:03:58] Go to bonfirecoffee.com and enter Normo at checkout

[00:04:02] To get a great deal on great coffee and to support the Norma cast

[00:04:06] And now back to the show

[00:04:18] Hello and welcome to the Norma cast

[00:04:20] This is your host Chris Galoos

[00:04:22] It is November 24th, 2024

[00:04:25] About 9.45 here in Colorado

[00:04:28] And this is episode 297 of the Norma cast

[00:04:32] A conversation with alpinist, ice climber, proud Midwesterner, Paul Keen

[00:04:39] Also known as PK

[00:04:42] Also known as the Dairylander

[00:04:44] Paul Keen is a legend

[00:04:46] In upper Midwest and lower Canadian ice climbing around Lake Superior

[00:04:52] That's right, some Midwest love here on the Norma cast

[00:04:55] Not even a transplant

[00:04:57] Not even a guy who used to live there

[00:04:59] PK is deep in it still

[00:05:01] In the upper Midwest, upper Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota

[00:05:06] A homeboy

[00:05:07] And I've been sitting on this one since last February

[00:05:10] I talked to PK up in Michigan at the Michigan Ice Festival

[00:05:14] Up there in Munising on the UP

[00:05:18] And you know, got to be summertime

[00:05:20] And I thought, well, let's not put out a podcast about ice climbing in the middle of summer

[00:05:24] But now, Bill up there at the Michigan Ice Fest has invited me back this year

[00:05:30] So I'll be making an appearance at the Michigan Ice Fest

[00:05:33] And I thought it's a perfect time to put out this interview with Paul Keen

[00:05:38] If you guys are tuning in from the Midwest

[00:05:41] And are interested in the Michigan Ice Festival

[00:05:44] Next year, 2025

[00:05:46] It begins on February 12th

[00:05:48] Runs through February 16th

[00:05:51] Of course, you can go to michiganicefest.com

[00:05:54] For information, tickets, all that sort of thing

[00:05:57] I will be there

[00:05:58] Not sure what exactly my official duties will be

[00:06:02] Other than attending the long-running Chris Kaluse dance party

[00:06:07] Yes, the dance party is named after me

[00:06:10] It's a long story

[00:06:12] It's been ongoing for several years

[00:06:14] I was there for the first time last year

[00:06:17] I will be in attendance once again

[00:06:19] Probably do some other stuff

[00:06:20] But I'll be hanging around

[00:06:21] Maybe ice climbing

[00:06:23] Maybe ice climbing

[00:06:25] Once again, that's February 12th through the 16th

[00:06:28] Go to michiganicefest.com for information

[00:06:32] Oddly, or maybe ironically

[00:06:34] Considering my ice climbing resume

[00:06:36] I used to ice climb

[00:06:37] I've climbed some shit back in the day

[00:06:40] But nevertheless, ironically

[00:06:42] I will be attending at least two ice fests this winter

[00:06:46] Maybe three

[00:06:48] Likely going to show up at URA

[00:06:50] I haven't been to that in any official duty

[00:06:53] Maybe ever, actually

[00:06:55] But it's kind of in my backyard

[00:06:56] So I head down there

[00:06:57] But also I'm going to be going to the Winona Ice Fest

[00:07:00] In Winona, Minnesota

[00:07:03] Look that one up too

[00:07:04] I'll talk a little bit more about that one later

[00:07:06] But yeah, I think

[00:07:07] These folks think it's funny

[00:07:09] To invite the EnormaCast to these ice festivals

[00:07:12] It's the height of comedy

[00:07:14] But of course I have these roots in the Midwest

[00:07:16] Grew up in the north suburbs of Chicago

[00:07:18] Was born in northern Wisconsin

[00:07:20] So yeah, I got my roots there

[00:07:22] I can handle it

[00:07:24] I can mostly handle it

[00:07:26] I can handle the drinking

[00:07:28] That's for sure

[00:07:30] Alright, let's get to my interview with Paul Keene

[00:07:32] PK, as he's well known in the Midwest

[00:07:35] Is probably one of the more influential climbers

[00:07:38] That you've never heard of

[00:07:41] Unless, of course, you climb

[00:07:42] In the UP, Upper Midwest Ice Climber

[00:07:45] That kind of thing

[00:07:46] But Paul's been all over the place

[00:07:48] And I didn't expect that

[00:07:49] I thought we were going to talk about

[00:07:50] Climbing along the shore of Lake Superior

[00:07:53] Get a little bit of Midwest

[00:07:55] Ice climbing history

[00:07:56] Which is, I think, relatively unknown

[00:07:58] Outside of the region

[00:07:59] But man, this conversation went all over the place

[00:08:03] We touched on so many different

[00:08:04] Little historical pieces, right?

[00:08:07] He knew and worked for Jeff Lowe

[00:08:09] In his heyday

[00:08:10] He was around when they were first

[00:08:13] Putting out tricams

[00:08:15] Paul was pivotal in the development of the AMGA

[00:08:19] And then just so many ascents

[00:08:21] All over North America

[00:08:22] South America

[00:08:23] Just embedding him in the history of climbing

[00:08:26] Then, of course, if you're from the Midwest

[00:08:28] And you're an ice climber

[00:08:29] Which still, I think, is a pretty small group

[00:08:32] Of people who developed that ice climbing up there

[00:08:34] On the shore of Lake Superior

[00:08:36] Then, of course, PK is a legend

[00:08:39] And if you go to Michigan

[00:08:41] You'll rub elbows with this guy

[00:08:43] And you'll walk away just scratching your head

[00:08:45] About how this guy got so much stuff done

[00:08:48] And survived

[00:08:49] And still loves it

[00:08:51] As much as anybody

[00:08:53] So I hope you dig this one

[00:08:55] A fun conversation

[00:08:57] With the Dairylander

[00:08:59] Mr. Paul Keene

[00:09:05] Sharp tools in your hands

[00:09:07] Spikes on your feet

[00:09:08] Screws wrapped on your waist

[00:09:09] Ice climbing is metal

[00:09:14] Black Diamond's ice collection

[00:09:16] Has everything you need to send this winter

[00:09:18] Including the newly released

[00:09:20] Black Diamond Hydra

[00:09:21] The most versatile ice tool ever made

[00:09:27] This winter

[00:09:28] Point to Hydra

[00:09:29] At whatever mountain objective you have

[00:09:31] And hold on

[00:09:32] Because with its integrated

[00:09:34] Component exchange system

[00:09:36] The Hydra becomes a customizable

[00:09:38] Winter weapon

[00:09:39] For any and all cold nightmares

[00:09:41] You can imagine

[00:09:42] Swap out weights

[00:09:43] Picks and accessories

[00:09:44] On the head of this monster

[00:09:45] And you'll be ready

[00:09:46] For whatever stands in your way

[00:09:48] From pure water ice

[00:09:50] Mixed climbing

[00:09:51] Dry tooling

[00:09:52] All the way to the peaks

[00:09:53] Of the Himalaya

[00:09:55] The Hydra

[00:09:56] Is a many-headed beast

[00:09:57] That can send it all

[00:10:03] So this winter

[00:10:04] You can run away scared

[00:10:05] Or you can meet the beast

[00:10:06] At BlackDiamond.com

[00:10:08] Or your local mountain shop

[00:10:09] One tool to rule them all

[00:10:12] The Hydra

[00:10:13] From Black Diamond

[00:10:16] Duh

[00:10:18] Dairyland

[00:10:19] Right

[00:10:19] I created Dairyland Expeditions

[00:10:21] Because of the fact

[00:10:23] Every one of my buds

[00:10:24] In the guiding industry

[00:10:25] Called me the Dairylander

[00:10:27] And that was started

[00:10:28] By Andy Salters

[00:10:29] So when I was being

[00:10:30] Trained to be a guide

[00:10:32] At North Cascades Alpine School

[00:10:34] Andy called me

[00:10:36] Originally

[00:10:36] PP

[00:10:37] He said no it's PK

[00:10:39] He goes no

[00:10:40] It's Petulant Paul

[00:10:41] I was never petulant

[00:10:44] No you don't seem

[00:10:44] Petulant at all

[00:10:45] No

[00:10:45] But somehow he gave that name

[00:10:47] So then I said

[00:10:48] Could you pick something else

[00:10:50] And then he just laughed

[00:10:51] Said look at how much cheese

[00:10:53] You put on the table

[00:10:54] In front of everybody

[00:10:54] You are now the Dairylander

[00:10:56] Nice

[00:10:57] And it's stuck

[00:10:58] Right

[00:11:00] And that's kind of

[00:11:01] The other thing

[00:11:01] Is

[00:11:03] You know

[00:11:03] It's like

[00:11:04] The origin story

[00:11:05] Is always fascinating to me

[00:11:06] And like

[00:11:07] You

[00:11:08] It sounds like you're from

[00:11:09] Like South Milwaukee

[00:11:10] Is that right?

[00:11:11] Well

[00:11:11] What was your like

[00:11:12] Mostly North Milwaukee

[00:11:14] Okay

[00:11:14] But most of my friends

[00:11:15] Are all South Milwaukee

[00:11:16] Okay

[00:11:16] And later I met my wife

[00:11:18] She was from South Milwaukee

[00:11:19] Right

[00:11:19] But we all met at

[00:11:20] The pack shop

[00:11:21] In Waukesha

[00:11:22] So this is

[00:11:22] Outside of Milwaukee

[00:11:24] And the pack shop

[00:11:26] Was just your

[00:11:26] Hardcore

[00:11:27] Climbing

[00:11:29] Backpacking

[00:11:29] Cross country ski

[00:11:30] Canoe kayak

[00:11:32] And shop

[00:11:32] Right

[00:11:32] Which darn

[00:11:33] None of those

[00:11:34] Around anymore

[00:11:35] Sad

[00:11:35] But she was always

[00:11:37] Doing the windows

[00:11:38] So I saw this

[00:11:39] Beautiful blonde

[00:11:40] In the windows

[00:11:42] I just fell in love

[00:11:43] But anyways

[00:11:45] Yeah

[00:11:45] In the earliest days

[00:11:46] Again

[00:11:47] I was trained

[00:11:48] As a guide

[00:11:49] I didn't come up

[00:11:51] As a bum climber

[00:11:52] Okay

[00:11:52] I went right to

[00:11:53] Classes to learn

[00:11:54] Rock climbing

[00:11:55] Okay

[00:11:55] At Devil's Lake State Park

[00:11:57] Why?

[00:11:57] Where I still live

[00:11:59] Why?

[00:12:01] Like why?

[00:12:01] Like who were you

[00:12:02] That you were like

[00:12:03] Oh to take a climbing class?

[00:12:05] Yeah

[00:12:05] And just to be a climber

[00:12:06] It's because I spent

[00:12:07] As a

[00:12:09] I always had my own businesses

[00:12:10] And I made a lot of money

[00:12:12] Even when my dad was in the union

[00:12:14] In the 70s

[00:12:15] I was almost making as much as he was

[00:12:17] By painting houses

[00:12:18] Okay

[00:12:18] And I know you know

[00:12:19] Fellow house painter

[00:12:20] You know what that's like

[00:12:21] Yeah

[00:12:21] But after July 15th

[00:12:23] It gets so hot and humid

[00:12:25] In the Midwest

[00:12:26] You know

[00:12:27] And the wasps come out of their nests

[00:12:30] And I just said

[00:12:31] You know

[00:12:31] I make enough money

[00:12:32] Up to July 15th

[00:12:34] 20th

[00:12:35] I'm out of here

[00:12:36] And because I was always

[00:12:37] A big fly fisherman

[00:12:38] Okay

[00:12:38] My grandmas taught me

[00:12:39] How to fly fish

[00:12:40] Before it was cool

[00:12:41] I'd jump on a bus

[00:12:42] Because I didn't

[00:12:43] I didn't have a license yet

[00:12:45] Because I was

[00:12:46] You know

[00:12:46] Freshman

[00:12:47] Sophomore in high school

[00:12:48] So I'd jump on a bus

[00:12:49] Back then parents just said

[00:12:51] Well be safe

[00:12:51] Right

[00:12:52] So

[00:12:52] And they knew I was really cool

[00:12:54] Because I mean

[00:12:55] I always loved the outdoors

[00:12:56] I camped all the time

[00:12:58] I would drag friends

[00:12:59] That never came back with me again

[00:13:01] To do stuff like that

[00:13:03] And so I would go straight west

[00:13:05] Either to Colorado or Montana

[00:13:07] Further out the wilderness

[00:13:09] Because I

[00:13:10] My dad was a lithographer

[00:13:11] At Kriegers

[00:13:12] Which is a company

[00:13:13] That did Mother Earth News

[00:13:15] A lot of National Geo stuff

[00:13:17] And all these beautiful nature

[00:13:21] You know

[00:13:22] I don't think he did

[00:13:23] Sierra Magazine

[00:13:24] But I think he did

[00:13:25] The first

[00:13:26] Outside

[00:13:27] Outside Mirai

[00:13:28] It was called

[00:13:29] M-R-I-G-A

[00:13:31] Outside Mirai

[00:13:34] So that was before

[00:13:35] Outside Magazine

[00:13:36] Out of Chicago

[00:13:37] My dad would bring

[00:13:38] These big

[00:13:39] 20 by whatever

[00:13:41] Press sheets

[00:13:42] That would be created

[00:13:44] Into pages

[00:13:45] And so we always

[00:13:46] Had these magazines

[00:13:47] First

[00:13:48] So I'd have all

[00:13:49] These stories read

[00:13:50] Before anything

[00:13:51] Broke out on the news

[00:13:52] Or people even knew about it

[00:13:54] And they're always

[00:13:55] And my dad always

[00:13:56] Pushed books

[00:13:57] Like Jack London on me

[00:13:59] Even when I was like

[00:14:00] 11

[00:14:01] 10, 11

[00:14:01] I was reading

[00:14:02] All these

[00:14:03] Yukon stories

[00:14:04] So all I wanted

[00:14:06] Was to see what

[00:14:06] The mountains were about

[00:14:07] And because I was

[00:14:09] A fisherman

[00:14:09] That makes sense

[00:14:10] So I'd get on a bus

[00:14:12] I'd get dropped off

[00:14:13] In Telluride or something

[00:14:15] And just

[00:14:16] Get up in the mountains

[00:14:17] And hide

[00:14:18] And I always did

[00:14:19] Two week stints

[00:14:20] That was my motto

[00:14:21] It had to be

[00:14:22] Two weeks

[00:14:23] To try to forget

[00:14:23] All the stuff

[00:14:24] Back home

[00:14:26] That was just

[00:14:27] That was just me

[00:14:28] What did you

[00:14:29] And we're talking

[00:14:30] The late 60s

[00:14:31] Early 70s

[00:14:31] No this is 70s

[00:14:32] Mid 70s

[00:14:33] Okay

[00:14:34] Because I would have

[00:14:34] Been in high school

[00:14:35] Like 73, 74

[00:14:36] Okay

[00:14:37] As a freshman

[00:14:38] And that's what

[00:14:39] I told the crowd

[00:14:39] This morning

[00:14:40] I was

[00:14:40] I was getting

[00:14:41] About to get

[00:14:42] An F

[00:14:43] In gym

[00:14:44] And thankfully

[00:14:45] My gym teacher

[00:14:46] Who was the

[00:14:47] Wrestling coach

[00:14:48] They were the state champions

[00:14:49] Like 12 years in a row

[00:14:51] I would get crushed

[00:14:52] In wrestling

[00:14:53] These big guys

[00:14:54] I was the smallest

[00:14:55] Kid in the class

[00:14:56] I really was

[00:14:57] And Pewaukee High School

[00:14:59] Was like 93 kids

[00:15:00] In that class

[00:15:01] And so

[00:15:02] I just

[00:15:03] I'm not doing that

[00:15:04] And he said

[00:15:05] Well

[00:15:05] I go past your house

[00:15:07] At the farm

[00:15:08] And I see you

[00:15:09] Out crosskitch

[00:15:09] You're skiing

[00:15:10] Every night after school

[00:15:11] Or I've seen you

[00:15:13] Rowing your boat

[00:15:15] All the way across

[00:15:15] Pewaukee Lake

[00:15:16] When I'm out sailing

[00:15:18] He said

[00:15:19] What's wrong

[00:15:19] I'm not going to get

[00:15:21] Crushed by these guys

[00:15:22] He said

[00:15:22] I'll come up with something

[00:15:24] Would you do it

[00:15:25] If I came up with something

[00:15:26] And then he gives me

[00:15:27] All these weightlifting things

[00:15:28] I'm this scrawny kid

[00:15:29] And back then

[00:15:30] Weightlifting equipment

[00:15:31] Was dangerous

[00:15:32] You know

[00:15:32] You had the

[00:15:33] And then this slam

[00:15:35] Of this big steel

[00:15:36] Chunks going up and down

[00:15:38] And I didn't

[00:15:39] I tried it

[00:15:40] Two weeks

[00:15:40] I started to bow out

[00:15:41] And just go hang out

[00:15:42] Reading

[00:15:43] And so he said

[00:15:45] You know

[00:15:45] I'm not going to

[00:15:46] Give you an F

[00:15:47] Damn it

[00:15:47] And so he gave me

[00:15:49] Some gymnastic stuff

[00:15:51] And because I was

[00:15:52] A light

[00:15:53] Scrawny

[00:15:53] Skinny

[00:15:54] Short kid

[00:15:55] I could like

[00:15:56] Call up on the rings

[00:15:58] I could do figure

[00:15:59] Before I knew

[00:16:00] What a figure four was

[00:16:01] I was resting

[00:16:01] All the time

[00:16:02] On the rings

[00:16:02] With my

[00:16:03] Foot over my

[00:16:04] Right

[00:16:05] You know

[00:16:05] So it's just like

[00:16:07] Okay that was cool

[00:16:08] But I get bored

[00:16:10] So fast

[00:16:12] And I still do

[00:16:13] So I would start

[00:16:14] Not showing up again

[00:16:16] And then

[00:16:16] In the last

[00:16:17] Ditch effort

[00:16:18] He goes

[00:16:19] Okay

[00:16:19] You're always

[00:16:21] Outside

[00:16:21] He said

[00:16:22] I know

[00:16:23] It's only for

[00:16:24] Seniors and juniors

[00:16:27] I take them on a

[00:16:28] Canoe trip every year

[00:16:29] And I'm like

[00:16:30] But they're all

[00:16:31] Big wrestling guys

[00:16:32] That follow you

[00:16:33] He goes

[00:16:34] Don't worry

[00:16:34] He says

[00:16:35] I think you'll be

[00:16:36] Able to

[00:16:36] You know

[00:16:37] Out paddle them

[00:16:38] Out haul gear

[00:16:39] And I'm like

[00:16:40] Yeah

[00:16:41] I'm nowhere near this

[00:16:42] I really don't

[00:16:42] Want to do this

[00:16:43] He goes

[00:16:43] I'll give you

[00:16:44] An A

[00:16:46] If you do this

[00:16:47] I'm like

[00:16:47] Okay my parents

[00:16:49] Would be really

[00:16:49] Happy with that

[00:16:50] Because they don't

[00:16:51] Know what

[00:16:51] They didn't check

[00:16:52] On grades

[00:16:53] Back then

[00:16:54] Teachers didn't

[00:16:55] Call up

[00:16:56] Saying what's

[00:16:56] Wrong with your

[00:16:57] Kid

[00:16:57] You know

[00:16:58] So I really

[00:16:59] Didn't want to

[00:17:00] Fail

[00:17:00] So I said

[00:17:01] I'll go with

[00:17:02] Yeah

[00:17:02] So up to

[00:17:03] Boundary Waters

[00:17:04] I went

[00:17:04] And one day

[00:17:05] He pulls out

[00:17:06] This pack

[00:17:06] That we've been

[00:17:07] Thinking it was

[00:17:08] Like food

[00:17:09] It wasn't

[00:17:10] There was

[00:17:11] Webbing for a

[00:17:12] Harness

[00:17:12] Swami belt

[00:17:13] A gold line

[00:17:15] Rope

[00:17:15] The old

[00:17:15] You know

[00:17:16] Nylon braided

[00:17:18] Rope

[00:17:18] He anchored

[00:17:19] To some trees

[00:17:20] Said here's

[00:17:22] Your harness

[00:17:22] Tie the webbing

[00:17:23] Around the waist

[00:17:24] And with our

[00:17:25] Hiking boots

[00:17:26] Up we went

[00:17:27] The big kids

[00:17:29] Did not like it

[00:17:30] They had a

[00:17:31] Horrible time

[00:17:32] And I just

[00:17:33] Scrambled right up

[00:17:34] And I was like

[00:17:35] The first night

[00:17:36] So I was maybe

[00:17:36] On a 10 day

[00:17:37] Trip I think it was

[00:17:38] That was like

[00:17:39] Maybe night

[00:17:40] Four

[00:17:40] That was the

[00:17:41] First night

[00:17:42] The big guy

[00:17:42] Said BK

[00:17:43] Come over

[00:17:44] To the fire

[00:17:44] And then

[00:17:45] The first thing

[00:17:46] Out of their mouths

[00:17:47] Were like

[00:17:48] How the hell

[00:17:49] Did you get

[00:17:50] To the top

[00:17:52] There were

[00:17:53] Holds here

[00:17:54] And there

[00:17:55] You know

[00:17:56] Right

[00:17:57] We didn't even

[00:17:58] Know what a

[00:17:58] Hold is

[00:17:58] I grabbed

[00:17:59] The rock

[00:18:00] Here

[00:18:00] And I

[00:18:01] Never been

[00:18:02] Good with memory

[00:18:03] Right

[00:18:03] So I said

[00:18:04] I just remember

[00:18:04] Stuff that I

[00:18:05] Could grab on

[00:18:06] And they're like

[00:18:07] No way man

[00:18:08] There's no way

[00:18:09] You could have

[00:18:09] Pulled yourself up

[00:18:10] I said

[00:18:11] I have no arms

[00:18:13] I didn't pull myself

[00:18:14] Up

[00:18:15] My hiking boots

[00:18:16] Did it

[00:18:16] You know

[00:18:17] Right

[00:18:17] And then I was

[00:18:18] Buds with them

[00:18:19] All

[00:18:19] For the rest

[00:18:20] Of the trip

[00:18:21] Suddenly they

[00:18:22] Accepted me

[00:18:23] So I was like

[00:18:23] This is kind of

[00:18:25] Cool

[00:18:25] Yeah

[00:18:26] It's like a

[00:18:26] Game changer

[00:18:27] You know

[00:18:28] Yeah

[00:18:29] But then

[00:18:30] Because I was

[00:18:31] Into other stuff

[00:18:32] Especially

[00:18:33] Theater

[00:18:34] And music

[00:18:35] Because I sang

[00:18:36] With the choir

[00:18:37] And stuff like that

[00:18:38] So I didn't think

[00:18:39] About it

[00:18:40] Until senior year

[00:18:40] And that's

[00:18:41] My dad found

[00:18:42] An article

[00:18:43] Saying a public

[00:18:44] Open to the public

[00:18:45] It was a

[00:18:46] University of

[00:18:47] Wisconsin

[00:18:49] Rock climbing lesson

[00:18:50] At Devil's Lake

[00:18:52] And

[00:18:53] I

[00:18:53] Geez

[00:18:54] I really

[00:18:55] He goes

[00:18:56] No I saw your

[00:18:57] Pictures in the mountains

[00:18:58] That is not hiking

[00:18:59] Because I

[00:19:00] I did scramble

[00:19:01] At really steep

[00:19:02] Bridges and stuff

[00:19:03] To get the

[00:19:03] Hidden lakes

[00:19:04] Because I didn't

[00:19:05] Usually buy

[00:19:06] A fishing license

[00:19:08] So

[00:19:09] You know

[00:19:10] We got the

[00:19:10] Painting thing

[00:19:10] In common

[00:19:11] We got being

[00:19:12] A scrawny little

[00:19:12] Kid in common

[00:19:13] We got

[00:19:14] Being

[00:19:15] You know

[00:19:15] Less than

[00:19:16] Perfect in

[00:19:17] Gym class

[00:19:17] In common

[00:19:18] But also

[00:19:19] I was like

[00:19:20] My big

[00:19:21] One of my

[00:19:21] Big outdoor

[00:19:23] Introductions

[00:19:24] To like

[00:19:25] Loving outdoors

[00:19:25] Is the

[00:19:26] Bounty waters

[00:19:26] No

[00:19:28] Kidding

[00:19:28] Yeah

[00:19:28] Because I grew up

[00:19:29] In Libertyville

[00:19:29] You know

[00:19:29] Just south

[00:19:30] Of the border

[00:19:30] There

[00:19:31] And yeah

[00:19:31] We used to

[00:19:31] I used to

[00:19:32] Go up there

[00:19:32] Every summer

[00:19:32] To do

[00:19:33] With a

[00:19:33] With a gym

[00:19:34] Teacher

[00:19:34] Actually

[00:19:34] Who ran

[00:19:35] A course

[00:19:36] Out of

[00:19:37] Out of our

[00:19:38] School

[00:19:38] Did you guys

[00:19:39] Ever go to the

[00:19:40] West End

[00:19:40] So we were by

[00:19:41] Rose Lake

[00:19:41] And those are

[00:19:42] Big cliffs

[00:19:43] No I

[00:19:44] I don't

[00:19:44] And that's

[00:19:45] What I was

[00:19:45] Going to bring

[00:19:45] Up

[00:19:46] But I

[00:19:46] I don't

[00:19:47] Think we

[00:19:47] Did

[00:19:47] Because the

[00:19:47] West side

[00:19:48] No we

[00:19:48] Would have

[00:19:48] Gone in

[00:19:49] Brule

[00:19:49] And those

[00:19:49] Places

[00:19:50] Yeah

[00:19:50] But we

[00:19:51] The Ely

[00:19:51] Side

[00:19:52] Yeah the

[00:19:52] Ely side

[00:19:53] Yeah exactly

[00:19:53] So we

[00:19:54] Went out

[00:19:54] Of Grand

[00:19:54] Marais

[00:19:55] But you

[00:19:55] Know I

[00:19:55] As I

[00:19:56] Become a

[00:19:57] Climber

[00:19:58] Now

[00:19:58] I mean we

[00:19:59] Used to

[00:19:59] Jump off

[00:20:00] These cliffs

[00:20:01] That were

[00:20:01] They seemed

[00:20:02] Very big

[00:20:03] Oh right

[00:20:03] That was the

[00:20:04] Swimmingest

[00:20:04] Time

[00:20:05] Jumping off

[00:20:06] Cliffs

[00:20:06] Yeah but

[00:20:06] They

[00:20:07] I mean I

[00:20:07] Think about

[00:20:08] Like I'm

[00:20:09] Like there

[00:20:09] Was rocks

[00:20:09] Up there

[00:20:10] You know

[00:20:10] There were

[00:20:11] Like

[00:20:11] And you

[00:20:11] Missed them

[00:20:12] Didn't you

[00:20:12] Yeah

[00:20:12] I mean you

[00:20:13] Know I

[00:20:14] Don't know

[00:20:15] Whether they

[00:20:15] Were climbing

[00:20:16] Worthy

[00:20:16] But you

[00:20:17] Know I

[00:20:17] Know that

[00:20:17] They're

[00:20:18] Up there

[00:20:18] Most of

[00:20:18] Were very

[00:20:18] Smooth

[00:20:19] Yeah and

[00:20:20] Also very

[00:20:20] Mossy

[00:20:21] With huge

[00:20:21] Lichen

[00:20:21] Yeah the

[00:20:22] Lichen

[00:20:22] Big potato

[00:20:23] Chip

[00:20:23] Lichen

[00:20:24] Yeah

[00:20:24] Those things

[00:20:24] But it's

[00:20:25] Just fascinating

[00:20:26] That that

[00:20:26] That was in

[00:20:27] The 70s

[00:20:28] This guy

[00:20:28] Had you

[00:20:28] Climbing up

[00:20:29] There

[00:20:29] That's pretty

[00:20:29] Cool

[00:20:30] Yeah I

[00:20:31] To this day

[00:20:32] I've tried

[00:20:33] To look him

[00:20:33] Up I can't

[00:20:34] Find him

[00:20:35] But George

[00:20:35] McComb

[00:20:36] If your

[00:20:36] Kids or

[00:20:37] Whoever's

[00:20:38] Probably

[00:20:38] Grandkids

[00:20:39] Listen to

[00:20:39] This podcast

[00:20:40] Say hi to

[00:20:41] George McComb

[00:20:42] In Maine

[00:20:43] Because I know

[00:20:43] He moved to

[00:20:44] Maine

[00:20:44] Well my guy

[00:20:45] Was Wally

[00:20:45] Sitz

[00:20:46] Cool you

[00:20:46] Remember the

[00:20:47] Name

[00:20:47] Yeah for

[00:20:47] Sure oh

[00:20:48] No I

[00:20:48] He was the

[00:20:49] Most maybe

[00:20:50] Outside my

[00:20:51] Parents like

[00:20:51] One of the

[00:20:52] Most influential

[00:20:52] People in

[00:20:53] My life

[00:20:53] Yeah for

[00:20:54] Sure

[00:20:54] Very cool

[00:20:54] Because he

[00:20:55] Put me on

[00:20:55] This path

[00:20:56] Of not just

[00:20:56] Not just like

[00:20:57] Outdoor stuff

[00:20:58] I mean he

[00:20:58] Wasn't a

[00:20:59] Climber

[00:20:59] So because

[00:21:00] I didn't

[00:21:00] Know what

[00:21:00] That was

[00:21:01] But he

[00:21:02] Was a real

[00:21:03] Minimalist

[00:21:04] As well

[00:21:04] In the

[00:21:05] Outdoors

[00:21:05] Like he

[00:21:06] Was very

[00:21:06] Much into

[00:21:07] You know

[00:21:08] Minimizing

[00:21:09] Gear and

[00:21:10] And not

[00:21:11] Quite survival

[00:21:12] Level but

[00:21:12] He knew all

[00:21:13] That stuff

[00:21:13] And he

[00:21:14] Would kind

[00:21:14] Of turn

[00:21:14] Us on

[00:21:15] To it

[00:21:15] A little

[00:21:15] Bit so

[00:21:15] We'd go

[00:21:16] Up even

[00:21:17] Up there

[00:21:17] You know

[00:21:17] We'd have

[00:21:18] A camp

[00:21:18] Set up

[00:21:18] And you'd

[00:21:19] Have the

[00:21:19] Day and

[00:21:19] We'd go

[00:21:19] Out and

[00:21:20] Build a

[00:21:20] Shelter

[00:21:21] And try

[00:21:22] To start

[00:21:22] A fire

[00:21:23] With the

[00:21:23] Fire bow

[00:21:24] And all

[00:21:24] Those sorts

[00:21:24] Of things

[00:21:25] Wow

[00:21:25] Yeah

[00:21:26] That was

[00:21:26] Way out

[00:21:27] There

[00:21:27] Just adventure

[00:21:28] Like the

[00:21:28] Idea that

[00:21:29] You're out

[00:21:30] There

[00:21:30] Because his

[00:21:31] Minimalist

[00:21:32] Attitude

[00:21:32] Was

[00:21:33] About adventure

[00:21:34] About like

[00:21:35] The less

[00:21:35] Stuff you have

[00:21:36] Make it

[00:21:36] An adventure

[00:21:36] The more

[00:21:37] The more

[00:21:38] Connected

[00:21:39] You are

[00:21:39] And the

[00:21:39] More exciting

[00:21:43] Climbing came

[00:21:44] Out of that

[00:21:45] Desire to

[00:21:46] Go and see

[00:21:47] What's out

[00:21:48] There

[00:21:48] And what's

[00:21:48] On top

[00:21:49] Of that

[00:21:49] And everything

[00:21:50] And I think

[00:21:50] It's really

[00:21:50] Cool that

[00:21:51] Fly fishing

[00:21:51] Was that

[00:21:52] For you

[00:21:52] It was

[00:21:53] You know

[00:21:53] Yeah

[00:21:54] Because it

[00:21:54] Was

[00:21:54] I mean

[00:21:55] Fly fishing

[00:21:55] Is a super

[00:21:56] Like in the

[00:21:57] Last 20 years

[00:21:58] Or whatever

[00:21:58] You know

[00:21:59] Or maybe

[00:22:00] 30

[00:22:00] It's gone

[00:22:01] Through a cycle

[00:22:02] Yeah

[00:22:02] It became

[00:22:02] This like

[00:22:03] Rich guy's

[00:22:03] Thing

[00:22:04] But it was

[00:22:04] Always

[00:22:05] Before that

[00:22:05] It was

[00:22:05] Always

[00:22:06] Just

[00:22:06] Fisher

[00:22:07] Fishermen

[00:22:07] And anglers

[00:22:08] That would

[00:22:09] Just do it

[00:22:09] Yeah

[00:22:10] And make the

[00:22:10] gear

[00:22:11] But Orvis

[00:22:11] Made it a

[00:22:12] Rich man's

[00:22:13] Thing

[00:22:13] Yeah

[00:22:14] You know

[00:22:14] So when my

[00:22:14] Gramps

[00:22:15] Just took

[00:22:16] This

[00:22:16] He was

[00:22:16] Always

[00:22:17] Just fly

[00:22:18] Casting

[00:22:19] But out

[00:22:20] Of this

[00:22:21] Good old

[00:22:22] Tube

[00:22:22] He pulls

[00:22:23] This bamboo

[00:22:24] Rod

[00:22:24] With this

[00:22:25] Ancient

[00:22:25] Fly thing

[00:22:26] And goes

[00:22:26] I think

[00:22:27] You'd like

[00:22:27] Just cause

[00:22:27] He knew

[00:22:28] I was

[00:22:28] Restless

[00:22:29] Right

[00:22:29] This will

[00:22:30] Keep me

[00:22:30] Standing

[00:22:31] And casting

[00:22:31] In the

[00:22:32] Boat

[00:22:32] Instead of

[00:22:32] Wiggling

[00:22:33] On the

[00:22:33] Seat

[00:22:34] Right

[00:22:34] You know

[00:22:34] I think

[00:22:35] That's

[00:22:35] Probably

[00:22:35] It's so

[00:22:36] Funny

[00:22:36] Cause that

[00:22:37] Was

[00:22:37] Exactly

[00:22:37] I hated

[00:22:38] Fishing

[00:22:39] In

[00:22:39] Wisconsin

[00:22:40] It was

[00:22:40] Very boring

[00:22:41] Otherwise

[00:22:41] I hated it

[00:22:42] Like perch

[00:22:43] Fishing

[00:22:43] With a

[00:22:43] Bobber

[00:22:44] I did

[00:22:45] That

[00:22:45] For like

[00:22:45] 10 minutes

[00:22:46] I didn't

[00:22:46] Want to

[00:22:46] Wait

[00:22:46] Anymore

[00:22:47] But I

[00:22:48] Got into

[00:22:48] Fly fishing

[00:22:48] Too

[00:22:49] In college

[00:22:50] Because

[00:22:51] And I

[00:22:51] Was like

[00:22:52] This is

[00:22:52] So much

[00:22:52] More fun

[00:22:53] It's like

[00:22:53] You're

[00:22:53] Doing

[00:22:54] Something

[00:22:54] You're

[00:22:55] Not

[00:22:55] Just

[00:22:55] Sitting

[00:22:55] There

[00:22:56] Waiting

[00:22:57] For your

[00:22:57] Little

[00:22:57] Thing

[00:22:57] To move

[00:22:58] Which is

[00:22:59] Why I

[00:22:59] Also

[00:22:59] Don't

[00:23:00] Ice

[00:23:00] Fish

[00:23:00] By

[00:23:00] Age

[00:23:01] 10

[00:23:12] Painting

[00:23:13] So I

[00:23:13] Made

[00:23:13] This

[00:23:14] Beautiful

[00:23:14] Fly

[00:23:15] And I

[00:23:16] Sold

[00:23:16] Flies

[00:23:17] Off the

[00:23:18] Road

[00:23:18] Cause we

[00:23:19] Had

[00:23:19] 26

[00:23:20] Lakes

[00:23:20] Around

[00:23:21] Us

[00:23:21] So

[00:23:22] I

[00:23:22] Mean

[00:23:22] Everybody

[00:23:23] Would

[00:23:23] Stop

[00:23:24] In

[00:23:24] And this

[00:23:25] 10

[00:23:25] Year

[00:23:25] Old

[00:23:25] Would

[00:23:25] Come

[00:23:26] Out

[00:23:26] With

[00:23:26] My

[00:23:26] Plastic

[00:23:27] Bin

[00:23:27] Full

[00:23:28] Of

[00:23:28] Flies

[00:23:28] And I

[00:23:29] Made

[00:23:29] money off nice that's awesome oh well let's get back to the climbing yeah um because really we're

[00:23:35] here to talk about ice climbing and so here you are you became a rock climber uh you got some

[00:23:40] training at devil's lake i mean how a lot how like extensive besides this beginner's course

[00:23:45] it was a two-part course so beginner and more advanced so that way you learn anchoring

[00:23:50] like you'd start out it was a weekend each one was a weekend at devil's lake but previous to that

[00:23:56] it was three weeks one night a week at a bank upstairs and you were belaying across the floor

[00:24:03] doing belay races so this is back hip belay and also how to belay through a figure eight okay they

[00:24:12] also taught a stitch plates too yeah that was kind of new yeah yeah yeah so you know you learn a ton

[00:24:18] of stuff indoors so when you showed up at the lake it was go and these guys one who i got very close

[00:24:25] to because he worked at the pack shop that i later managed bobby stricker who's i haven't seen him

[00:24:32] forever i remember him getting arrested going in with all white into saint helens the winter after

[00:24:38] the explosion and he skied in and they obviously saw his tracks so they just went and picked them up

[00:24:44] he couldn't get away but he did get arrested for that i remember that because i ran into him

[00:24:49] he worked for yak works the old backpack company and msr so i would visit him in downtown seattle

[00:24:56] that was like 81 82 then i lost track of him but incredible climber 5'4 and by then i had end of

[00:25:04] sophomore year i just like ripped out of my clothing oh really i went up to 6'2 instantly right on so it

[00:25:10] hurt i mean every joint hurt and everything but um so now suddenly i'm way taller than bobby right but bobby

[00:25:19] would he'd say no this what i do you're not going to be able to do so it was a learned thing that you

[00:25:25] know he taught me right away that we're no we're not equal even if we're the same strength you know

[00:25:30] that you are going to find a different hole than i can do so that was really cool of him to really

[00:25:36] push that okay what jeff lowe did when he said no don't slam the tool and watch this and he just

[00:25:41] like hooked and went up i'm like oh boy can i do that up here because i had already been climbing in

[00:25:47] you know way below zero ice up here and down there you just you're 30 below zero is done by like

[00:25:54] six in the morning then it skyrockets to 20 all the time so i wasn't i wasn't sure i could do that

[00:26:02] kind of stuff back here but he taught me how to dance up you know and that's by a free chance that

[00:26:07] because i was working construction and they needed someone to always come early and do certain

[00:26:13] things and lowe was just they were just putting a building up or he was going to rent that building

[00:26:20] or something it wasn't his but where was this i was living in niwak when it was one bar and two

[00:26:26] we were the first condos i built oh right out by boulder yeah yeah or i didn't build those but i got in

[00:26:33] with the builders and started to build elsewhere when i moved to colorado but so is it fiat or something

[00:26:41] like that just south of there but yeah he was gonna rent the place because he was just at that

[00:26:47] point it would have been with the tricams he needed more space for sewing and all that kind of stuff

[00:26:53] because the tricams came from camp but no leaf no webbing on them okay so they sewed the webbing on

[00:26:59] and he's like geez you're the only guy that shows up and he recognized me from the shows in chicago

[00:27:08] in minneapolis that we would go to for the pack shop i couldn't believe he recognized he goes no

[00:27:13] we've talked about it i know you're an ice climber he says this is a really shitty day obviously again

[00:27:18] you're the only guy that's showing up in a snowstorm let's go climbing and i'm the my jaw drop because

[00:27:25] this is my hero right because i you know if i had that ice experience book with me i would have said

[00:27:31] could you sign it so that one day experience i learned so much about not bashing i came from the

[00:27:42] alpine climbing right up in in north cascade so you always were bashing to get through crappy stuff to

[00:27:50] get the real ice and so that just like wow did that turn me around i was a lot heavier i mean i had

[00:27:58] more muscle mass i had just got done with the pistola crest trail i took time off because i did

[00:28:03] a bunch of hard scary climbs and a buddy said let's go do the crest show i know you always want to do it

[00:28:09] you heard me talk about all through high school and i said okay but i i had planned on always doing it by

[00:28:16] myself and that's from the national geo book that my dad had given me in 75 or 76 and of course day one

[00:28:23] he left he didn't like it so i did the rest all by myself but i was writing for the milwaukee journal

[00:28:31] so there was there's the heat was on right because i couldn't just bow out like my buddy did it's like

[00:28:38] i'm writing for the walkie sir freeman milwaukee journal i gotta keep going and i loved it i mean it

[00:28:44] was awesome but anyway so after that year off you know i was just starting to get back into climbing and

[00:28:50] stuff and then then i did a lot of hard stuff in the canadian rockies i mean there there are weird

[00:28:59] stuff because i'm the only guy known to do a solo of the north face at the baska in the buff

[00:29:08] i see now we gotta just put the brakes on i think the listeners right now are like wait wait wait there

[00:29:14] was like 20 different things that he just dropped that need to be explored like literally i was

[00:29:20] having fun yeah so let's let's naked at the baska uh thing we'll get back to so you it's you went

[00:29:30] out west um it sounds like you were in the cascades and i mean yeah that was that was 79 80

[00:29:37] so there's a period between again the bank and the floor oh right right learning how to rock climb

[00:29:44] you don't have to do chronic yeah chronicle no it was crying i mean i went immediately after that

[00:29:49] rock climb lesson is when i signed up for that september after that summer playing at devil's

[00:29:54] lake i signed up for those first guiding courses at north cascades for that september so that was 79

[00:30:02] 80 so the two separate years because i they didn't allow you to do back-to-backs okay because they

[00:30:09] wanted you to train what you learned the first time where like rmi or somewhere like that well who's

[00:30:13] no this is north cascades alpine school okay okay cool so it'd be dunham gooding changed the name to

[00:30:19] american alpine institute he's still the leader i wasn't thinking yeah but yeah yeah so i knew dunham

[00:30:24] and dunham helped us create the american mountain guys i was in on the first bunch of guys for the

[00:30:30] american glenn randall i mean i miss him dearly he died way too early but he's the one that somehow

[00:30:38] i knew him through somebody else but he's like we don't have anyone from the midwest and i know

[00:30:44] you're trying to be a guide out here you want to join us and i'm like really you know i remember

[00:30:50] trying to get into american alpine club back then you had to give a huge roster of climbs you know they

[00:30:57] didn't let anybody in back then so i was i thought i was just lucky to get in on the aac let alone that

[00:31:03] you know the guides association and we were just changing the names because shunard and the group

[00:31:09] left us with a very long like american professional mountain blah blah blah it was like five letters and

[00:31:17] we we tried to shrink that down to american mountain guides association so i was i mean to meet all these

[00:31:23] guys and to just jump in right with them you know but they knew i had been taught by some of the best

[00:31:29] guys up in north cascades alpine school and they said no you know share share it and let's keep

[00:31:35] sharing and let's pull more guys in those early days like half the group would leave they'd swear

[00:31:41] say a couple f words or whatever and just leave because they didn't want to change and we wanted

[00:31:47] we always wanted uia whatever sanction you know certification so we could because i we all dreamed of

[00:31:55] climbing in chamonix right we all wanted to guide and chameleon not climb we wanted a guide in chamonix

[00:32:02] so it was way above our heads so so it was what did your personal climbing look like in that era

[00:32:08] well because i i went i mean i did a bunch of stuff in the north cascades thanks to alan kearney who showed

[00:32:15] me like no there's tons of untapped stuff and i was always into doing stuff on my own you know but i would

[00:32:22] find somebody that just you know knew or whatever and just that i always waited to do a little climb

[00:32:29] with them to see what they were really like you know and then i'd say you want to try this you want

[00:32:34] to try that and then i ended up 82 83 84 85 i think up to 86 i was in the north in uh canadian rocky six

[00:32:46] weeks straight every summer which led to that 84 solo okay so let's do that then what what was like

[00:32:53] on your tick list up there and who were you climbing with up there oh well i went through a lot of

[00:32:58] partners because most of them didn't want to do back country like haul the backpack and tent and all

[00:33:05] that kind of stuff so a lot of different guys mainly drawn from guys i met more in the midwest

[00:33:13] okay minneapolis or chicago or whatever it never really worked out but one year i think it was 83

[00:33:22] so second year i was up there um we met two guys from colorado and i and i told them hey i'm just i'm

[00:33:29] just heading that way but i'm going to try to live out in washington first and i was a cross-country

[00:33:36] ski certified instructor for the psia so i really wanted to go a place like bend because they had

[00:33:43] really awesome back then it was the caroo cross-country ski center but they had no snow that

[00:33:50] year so i just like wandered all the way back because this bill troll and lenny miller hi guys i know you're

[00:33:58] out there they said hey you want to go up at the basket i said i've been up there a bunch of times

[00:34:03] because i did north face the hourglass everything i could and then lenny and bill and us went up

[00:34:09] there even though there's a big snow and i said let's not go down they're like no let's just go down

[00:34:14] faster straight down the silver door i'm like we just got loaded with snow we really shouldn't you

[00:34:20] know but okay i'll go let's keep stopping and seeing and stop and talk and like as soon as we

[00:34:28] drop down around the corner huge three four feet deep by easily 600 yards across the whole slope goes

[00:34:38] with with lenny whoa out in front i was on a separate rope with my partner mark and i just jumped on bill's

[00:34:46] shoulder because he was plunging his ice axe and i just jumped on him because i'm like lenny could take

[00:34:52] you right off because bill was quite a bit lighter and shorter than lenny and and we could hear the

[00:34:58] rope squeaking as it tightened and i had just read about one of our favorite english guys where the

[00:35:05] figure it broke at the figure eight on his harness and he got swept into a crevasse and lenny and his

[00:35:10] island just heading right for this much just crevasse at the bottom of the north face and we're just

[00:35:17] lean on and he kept swimming though he stayed on top and he finally came to a stop and we went down

[00:35:24] and those guys got really close to us after we drank a lot that night right ate lenny's killer hot chili

[00:35:31] drank a lot of beers and then they said yeah we're leaving they were both call arounds they didn't like

[00:35:36] this bad weather stuff i'm like well it's just getting good let the avalanches come off and there'll be

[00:35:43] ice runnels and they're like no we're by bye and my buddy mark he just like yeah no so then i got

[00:35:52] really close to lenny because i went to live with him for a month or so and be his maid you know clean

[00:35:59] up everything and i was working whatever jobs i could and that included the construction with low

[00:36:06] um and then it was the next year that lenny says let's do something big let's like hit everything we

[00:36:12] can and the canadian rockies i'm like i've hit a lot of them already you know i had already done

[00:36:17] the kitchener coular i did something really stupid trying to solo slipstream i made it way past halfway

[00:36:25] until i saw a cirak just come off the top and wipe out everything under his back i down climbed the

[00:36:32] whole damn thing again and walked out my buddy watched he was way down you know at the bottom of

[00:36:40] glacier bouldering because there's some beautiful boulders on that glacier off of snowdome so he was

[00:36:46] having fun he goes yeah i figured you'd come back when i heard that roar he was right so anyways

[00:36:53] so we go this is so it would have been 84 we were heading up lenny wanted to do lotus flower tower

[00:37:00] he says you know we're both really good you know we've been practicing in colorado all year long

[00:37:07] you know doing some good routes and stuff he says we can we can be the first ones to do it free because

[00:37:13] it still hadn't been freed and i'm like cool that'd be awesome i love the boonies you know and i had

[00:37:20] already been up to alaska a bunch of times you know in 82 and 83 so i said yeah let's go find the pilot

[00:37:27] and so anyways on the way up lenny was always a pretty good drinker i never was i mean i could

[00:37:34] down a lot of beer but i would quit right stop at one point just quit but lenny would keep carrying

[00:37:40] on especially if girls were out and they were usually drawn to him so anyways i don't know if you know

[00:37:47] the story of of the the athabasca glacier ranger station but back then they had like 10 truckloads

[00:37:56] of sand brought in to make a beach off of the kitchener the stream at the bottom and they built

[00:38:02] a sauna and and beautiful girls these rangers were just really pretty girls and very butch looking guys

[00:38:10] that were at the the center to talk to people about the glaciers and they were bored ship right i mean

[00:38:18] they they talked that japanese back then it was japanese before chinese and and tourists all day

[00:38:25] long so they had incredible parties and we've been up there i've been up there for years so i got to know

[00:38:32] a bunch of them and then with lenny and i hanging out for like three four weeks they got to know us really

[00:38:37] good and they're just like come on over for a party there was no one with clothes on and so much was

[00:38:45] being drunk and that's all we did we got from the sauna jumped into the freezing cold stream back in

[00:38:51] the sauna back and drinking the whole time and i'm like lenny i want to do at the basket tomorrow it's

[00:38:57] like perfect conditions it's like 28 in the morning and it doesn't get above 32 in the afternoon i mean

[00:39:04] we could go shirtless you know and he's laughing he's okay i'll i'll catch up to you so i went back

[00:39:11] and slept and he came in like one in the later now probably like three in the morning of course i'm

[00:39:16] getting up at 4 35 and i make him follow me but at the bottom of the north face he's like yeah ain't

[00:39:23] gonna happen i'm gonna go back down i'm like really come on it's perfect and he's like nope nope because

[00:39:33] you go do it he said you said you do it shirtless as he you know as i'm walking away from him pretty

[00:39:40] mad at him and i get up just past the shrunk i'm sitting i made myself a little ledge putting my

[00:39:48] because i still was it was perfect for uh you know the nice firm snow so i hadn't put my crampons yet

[00:39:56] i even did a little maneuver over the shrunk without crampons and then it's like okay now

[00:40:04] i'm on hard ice so i sit back i put my harness on put my boots on and my crampons on then i'm like

[00:40:13] lenny's right like i'm hot as hell right now because of the we went up really fast that's probably with

[00:40:19] all the drinking he did he that fast speed that we did to get to the bottom he was feeling pretty

[00:40:24] rustled so anyways i'm like i'm hot in hell so of course i take my jacket off my shirt off

[00:40:32] i'm like i'm still so here i am pulling my my bill forrest pile pants off and lenny's way down

[00:40:42] below and he's going what the hell and out of the pocket berkshunt is way up there right

[00:40:51] oh i for he had handed me his camera to shoot pictures and out goes the camera and i just see it

[00:40:59] in pieces going down very nice that was a little compact 35 millimeter back then busting up i'm like

[00:41:08] damn it now i owe him big time but it's like oh well i just i stripped all the way down

[00:41:16] you know i kept the harness on in case i'd have to wrap because i always carried a rope no matter

[00:41:21] what i did i always had my rope with me because i wanted to wrap and get the hell out of there

[00:41:26] and that's all i had was my helmet my harness and my boots and grandpa's

[00:41:31] and gloves right and i climbed up and i i tie lenny said i had to time it right he said you can't leave

[00:41:39] after this certain point because he knew all the people would be on their telescopes at the center

[00:41:45] looking up at avasca i don't think you could see that clearly from those but that was the joke because

[00:41:52] he had to do it between like nine and ten the morning when all those buses pull up well this is

[00:41:57] like the sun's just coming up and i'm already at the top in like an hour so i kind of wrecked the

[00:42:04] whole story you know it's like damn it but man when i topped out on that cordis ridge i was cold

[00:42:11] fast in the wind so i put my clothes on really fast i'm getting down because i gotta keep moving i'm

[00:42:18] freezing now and of course i made it down lenny had gone back to campground but again bless his heart

[00:42:27] my buddy he knew where we had to get pinched together to jump over a creek and there were two

[00:42:35] beers right there for me nice to come down of course i couldn't drink it without it so i brought both

[00:42:42] bottles all the way back to camp and made him drink it with me he's like it's not as cold now

[00:42:48] you're right i said you're the one who tempted me to do that

[00:42:53] so what did that have to do with lotus flower tower we were on the way oh you were on but we

[00:42:58] kept getting sidetracked that was that was as far as you got so you know like within a couple days

[00:43:04] the weather were after that was so this is the start of the bizarre summers that we had never seen before

[00:43:10] where it just stayed warm and so um i had already with my buddy did uh the guys up here say i did a

[00:43:20] first the same but i don't think it's a rib near george lowe's or greg lowe can't remember which

[00:43:26] that did um north twins okay but i'm like no i wasn't really north face because i did the the rock

[00:43:35] rib furthest to the left when you're looking at it and it was you got to snow a steep snow rib

[00:43:43] right away it was maybe 18 2 000 feet of rock and then the rust was all ice and snow so i i'm i say no

[00:43:53] i that was not a north face rod at all because i mean i really cheated but it's still that ridge and

[00:43:59] went up i know but it's still the north twin it was a big bigger than we thought believe me

[00:44:05] we were very uh i would have been what so um 1982 so yeah so 22 about but i still i was still not

[00:44:17] thinking right because i mean it was the next year that i've been trying to do denali right so i wasn't

[00:44:23] thinking right at all what do you mean by that you know trying to solo or just push stuff differently

[00:44:29] right you know and this my buddy who was climbing with me was not that good so i should not have had

[00:44:35] him on that because he was worried the whole time he she shouted a lot of obscenities to me all the

[00:44:42] time he was not he let me know how he felt every which way right but it was a safe route the limestone

[00:44:47] was awesome i didn't know that existed because i'd already done the bottom part edith cavell and i knew

[00:44:54] that was all quartzite so i just thought the whole bottom range was quartzite but it all

[00:44:59] wasn't always and i didn't know my geology quite that good back then so i still might have some

[00:45:05] stuff wrong but so lenny and i go okay you he knew that i had tried edith cavell a couple years before

[00:45:11] that so he goes let's let's do it it's like incredible weather it's cold overnight and by the

[00:45:17] time we're at the top if it's warm who cares so we get there and suddenly lenny goes you know you

[00:45:22] did that solo without me two weeks ago or whatever a week ago and he's like let's just do this solo

[00:45:30] well that wasn't in the plan here we're when i have a partner and a good partner i want to be on the

[00:45:37] rope you know nobody's around that's when i just thought i was cool and would just go solo something

[00:45:42] that takes me back to bridal veil falls in the fang too i couldn't find anybody

[00:45:48] but i thought it was a piece of cake i mean it was i thought it was easier than here just looking at it

[00:45:54] and i buzzed up the rigid designator in like 20 minutes and did the fang back to back and everybody

[00:46:00] goes you shit me you know and go yeah here's the pictures i took a picture between my legs looking

[00:46:06] down you know at the rope because i always always had the rope hanging for my harness in case i wanted

[00:46:11] to back off right you know and uh so on this one lenny's insisting that i solo and i'm like okay

[00:46:20] okay and so we're kind on that big wall at the bottom and i'm like oh yeah i forgot chenard soloed

[00:46:29] this and so you're on either and if he could do this is that where we're at now okay cool i lost it

[00:46:34] i lost the train okay sorry yeah we're on either cabell and lenny's telling us that we have to solo

[00:46:39] i'm like that's not what this partner thinks about we have a rope and gear i want to play some gear

[00:46:45] he's like no let's just sole it we can use the gear up high so i'm like damn it so you remember

[00:46:50] chenard sold yeah and i'm like and they had crappy boots we're we're we're not wearing rock shoes

[00:46:57] we got our double boots on you know i'm like yeah this is what i learned in i learned in

[00:47:04] vast kiker twos i thought i could do anything and though so up we went and lenny i said well i'm not

[00:47:13] soloness unless i'm way away from you because others it's not a solo i have to feel alone and committed

[00:47:21] and lenny's like whatever so i go hundreds of yards whatever away from him and start up a different

[00:47:29] part of the face and i'm like almost at the top of that face before you hit the angel glacier

[00:47:37] and suddenly i hear some rock crumbling and here's lenny coming at me i'm like i told you we weren't

[00:47:47] supposed to be climbing together you know because i'm just trying to pick a good road i'm like so i

[00:47:53] have these awesome photos of him doing these long reaches on overhangs with this pack and double boots

[00:47:58] pulling these really cool rock moves you know to this day i send it like every year we toss each

[00:48:06] other pictures and we said were we this stupid we thought we could do this but we did and then when

[00:48:12] we got up higher a group had really gone fast up the glacier the normal route and got ahead of us

[00:48:20] and rock fall they were like it looked like they were clearing ledges with a shovel i'm like really

[00:48:26] they we shouted they had yelled back so we they knew we were down there and we said okay we know

[00:48:33] how good we are now and we just buzz fast i'm doing rope work placing gear but we like i think we were

[00:48:40] simul climbing a little bit but we just buzzed right past them to get away from that danger like what the

[00:48:47] hell these canadian climbers is that how they are i didn't know that many canadian guys so i shouldn't

[00:48:55] have said that but anyways they were it turned out they were because when we got even with them we yelled

[00:49:01] something appropriate to them but it was nice it was like you gotta be more careful

[00:49:07] you know you almost killed us with the rock fall and and then we got to the top and it was it was

[00:49:15] awesome it was like wow we pulled you know so it wasn't a full solo i mean we roped up on the upper

[00:49:21] rock buttress i think it made me because of the rock fall right yeah we were just like damn it and

[00:49:28] then you you have to cross that really thin ice on top of shale and of course lenny goes okay your turn

[00:49:34] he goes you're better at the ice go for it i was like but there's no bro i can put

[00:49:41] thanks lenny he goes just pretend we were soloing again but he had a bomb proof anchor

[00:49:49] so i went for it so let me ask you this because i mean we we uh i i'm i'm in a whole different

[00:49:56] interview than i thought i was oh no that's fine it's fine because we haven't even gotten back to

[00:50:02] climbing ice in wisconsin or in michigan or in in minnesota or uh um what ontario is that what's up

[00:50:09] there anyway the the uh um i mean this whole thing of like this reminds me of of a of a phrase that i

[00:50:18] don't know if he coined but um it's on the podcast with kelly cordis disaster style um which is like

[00:50:24] he defined as like you just you know you basically just go go go until it's it's too hard to go down

[00:50:31] and that means you're gonna probably finish i'll say no i always thought all that stuff out way ahead

[00:50:37] of time i did not like that thought at all yeah but i mean you're throwing out solos that i think

[00:50:42] probably for the day were pretty impressive but they felt so i mean when you climb up here and i

[00:50:48] learned my whole first year pushing hard was at devil's lake i get out there and i'm like trying

[00:50:55] to drag guys that said yeah man 510 whatever i'm like no this is a 58 or we didn't have that back

[00:51:03] in the original book it was f yeah so is it no this is an f7 or f8 this is not a 510 or whatever

[00:51:10] you call this because i had already been to yosemite because i climbed after i got or while i was on the

[00:51:16] preserve a crest trail i some guys bet me i couldn't beat them with their horseback to the top of

[00:51:23] tioga pass or something on the other side of yosemite and i beat him by like two days and i left

[00:51:30] the note for him at the where we get the our packages up at 12 nay meadows post office and i left

[00:51:37] the note for him because i said i would if i beat him right and it turned out to be two days but i was

[00:51:42] willing to hang out because they promised me they'd take me climbing because i didn't have my gear with

[00:51:46] me and they'd take me climbing up something hard i didn't know it was going to be triple direct

[00:51:53] really i'd never done anything that big well there isn't anything that big almost it was like oh my god

[00:52:00] but we did we did not make it to the summit okay we only got like halfway and and then a big storm was

[00:52:07] coming in they're like they were smart enough they're like no we're getting down and i'm like that's

[00:52:12] right because he already almost scared the shit out of me already a couple times on some of these

[00:52:16] swings and so it was like pretty wild but anyway so you know after just learning a double's lake

[00:52:24] half a triple direct in borrowed gear yeah yeah i mean it was really they had really nice stuff these

[00:52:31] guys had a lot of money that's probably why they had pack horses you know and stuff like that

[00:52:35] so but obviously they were good climbers you know they knew what they're doing i trust them right

[00:52:41] away because just from what we talked about when i hung out with them when i was packing my stuff

[00:52:47] into my backpack and they were getting ready for their horseback journey you know and i knew enough

[00:52:53] already in just that first month of the pct that anyone early season has very slow horses because

[00:52:59] the horses aren't ready yet because they don't like stumbling especially if there's a little snow on

[00:53:04] the trails so i knew i could beat them so it was a total setup on my because i really wanted to go climbing

[00:53:11] especially in yosemite you know so anyways yeah the long story short after you've climbed a

[00:53:19] devil's lake you go anywhere in the world i've climbed france and england and scotland and nepal

[00:53:26] i mean the friction you just freak out my foot sticks right it sticks to this rock it will not at

[00:53:36] double fuck state park unless you're on like a dime thick edge right so i always thought that stuff

[00:53:44] was really easy what about the ice what about solo in the ice after climbing up here i thought

[00:53:51] everything was easier because the temperature i wasn't at 29 below zero with the wind freezing the

[00:53:58] wind off to this lake i mean yeah back then it was always iced out miles out right but the dampness

[00:54:06] still that rode over that ice would create fogs at way below zero and then sweep up that phase so

[00:54:13] everything once i moved out west i was like you guys don't even know what climate i would tease them all

[00:54:21] like yeah right you're wisconsinite and i just let it lie there because i'm like yeah you're right

[00:54:28] i'm just from wisconsin it's it reminds me of the ice ice skiers from from the northeast oh right yeah

[00:54:34] who can you can edge on like exactly go up to vermont and northern new york and and after a good rainstorm

[00:54:41] after a new snow you you see how how graceful your turn is so so you know this is all like uh i mean

[00:54:54] i had no idea about any of your past like um as far as that it's only coming out nowadays because

[00:55:00] people are finding out through friends or i don't know how it gets out i mean some of these things that

[00:55:05] you're doing because i never wrote about it right but i mean like that wasn't because i ice climbed back

[00:55:11] um but this would have been the end of the 80s or like 90 so when they started to put the little

[00:55:16] curve in the handle i i oh still was straight yeah okay i can't remember when i kind of stopped

[00:55:23] but didn't you say you had the simone chacall no no i had um i had x15 oh you had x okay okay so

[00:55:30] and it was like either time for me to retool or stop but also i moved to southern california but this

[00:55:36] isn't about me but the point is is that um i mean even when i started at the end of the 80s like the

[00:55:42] rigid designator the fang when it came in because it was before they would farm it um didn't always

[00:55:48] come in like they really farm it well they started hanging a rope because i just passed it last week and

[00:55:53] it's like these look like really different no they're they're um i mean it depends though it's

[00:55:58] warmer now too oh because of the warmth yeah but they also why they're so beefy i mean they hung a

[00:56:03] rope on it and stuff just to help oh sure to start it yeah so but nevertheless they were considered

[00:56:09] pretty serious still and even when i was climbing in the late 80s so it must have been according to my

[00:56:13] friends they were very mad at me when i came back they said you shouldn't be doing that shit right so

[00:56:19] i was i felt really bad because frank who i was living with he was an emt and stuff and on the rescue

[00:56:27] team he's also on the national spelunking rescue team so he had to deal with cavers getting stuff

[00:56:32] so i did he he was mad at me and i fell bad okay you know but i'm like i don't write about this shit

[00:56:39] i just i i knew i could do it you know don't blame me i just i knew it would be well fun the

[00:56:48] interesting it was it was awesome it was so fun because it wasn't freaking freezing yeah and then

[00:56:55] when you get uh i mean you get it this is this era that's legendary and it still exists but not to

[00:57:00] the same extent um of never falling anyway like and that's kind of the thing and i always was the

[00:57:06] rule like yeah like i if i didn't stop and place all these screws this would be a hell of a lot easier

[00:57:12] right i'm not gonna fall anyway right right you know hell or high water yeah i'm still not gonna

[00:57:18] fall so i did always have that contemplation of like i'm pumped because i'm placing screws

[00:57:23] and if i wasn't placing screws it would be safer in this way because i i would probably have less

[00:57:28] so think back then when we had snargs and shenards i was a snarg guy where the shenards you had to

[00:57:36] place three times right because the first two would pucker out all the ice and finally the hole was

[00:57:42] deep enough that at least it would start going in and of course the ratchet only worked out here

[00:57:47] where the ice was softer right back here it was way too cold so you still had to use your whole ice axe

[00:57:53] and just the low rat so it was so pumpy right so when i started to play doing little solos here

[00:58:06] i was comfortable with this harder ice and stuff and a lot of it was overhanging because of that

[00:58:13] that splashback if you're doing a low thing you were down near the the kirby bottom just for practice

[00:58:19] and so my love not it is a solo but the longest climb i ever did in my life was a mile long

[00:58:28] like an hour and a half my wife timed it but mosquito beach the face of the ice volcanoes is always

[00:58:36] overhung slightly where's that that's so there's mosquito beach and chapel beach kind of where people

[00:58:42] go out to hMR okay so that beach that bay thing yeah always has this huge swerving face of ice

[00:58:52] where the the push stopped and then it's flat pan ice after that and it's up to 15 20 feet above the

[00:59:01] water from the splashing and i did one time i did the whole traverse all the way across non-stop i was

[00:59:08] pumped because i wasn't allowed like stepping onto like a crack where you could do you know a step into

[00:59:16] the snow and rest right that was that was verbatim you know i mean not verbatim verboten yeah verboten

[00:59:23] so my old german it's been bergsteiger yeah um so anyways the yeah so i mean i was comfortable

[00:59:32] doing long hard stuff yeah and i was with those old tools i have to keep reminding people this is with

[00:59:39] one my laprade ice axe and a hummingbird tool right the hummingbirds were i think that's the reason

[00:59:46] jeff thought i was a cool guy because he knew i loved the foot fangs because it changed our lives

[00:59:52] yeah see i was a foot fan guy i was at the end of that too i mean i think he brought that out in

[00:59:58] 80 81 82 somewhere in there right when i was starting so as soon as i got up here and started

[01:00:03] playing the harder stuff i'm like i'm buying those man because i'm sick of kicking and bashing all my

[01:00:10] icicles away so let's talk about like like i mean you came back and and so it's like it's interesting

[01:00:17] because there's so much of the of the exodus of climbers from the midwest that go out west and then

[01:00:22] they stay out west and oh yeah but i think it's a little bit interesting that that you you still

[01:00:28] always kept this place as sort of your roots and then well yeah thanks to reagan oh yeah as

[01:00:34] as soon as reagan came into office within three years all the most the the guys making the biggest

[01:00:41] cash ibm were all out of work right so suddenly you got all these engineers lenny made it through but

[01:00:47] half the engineers from ibm store tech were all working flipping burgers so it was bad and my buddies

[01:00:54] and i because i was a builder i was helping and they were they were into early green building trying

[01:01:00] to keep air tight and all that kind of stuff so that's where i picked up on it much later but we

[01:01:05] were building condos just for quick money those guys had a bunch of builds and a lot of money spread out

[01:01:14] i put all my money into the one because i thought i'd live in it for a while and then this crash came

[01:01:20] so something that i think we were putting in like 40 grand to build it god knows what that condo goes

[01:01:26] for it now yeah probably millions yeah because it was just outside of niwatt right and and then the

[01:01:33] crash came and everyone's out of work and i'm just like you know because i was guiding for different

[01:01:39] companies like an eldo that was um paul sibley right you know but you're on a roster and you had the old

[01:01:48] landlines we didn't have cell phones so the calls would go out because they needed a family shows up they

[01:01:54] want a guide and if you weren't home you missed it and it went to the next guy they just kept doing

[01:02:00] a cycle so they were never home he probably had like 100 guides working for him but how many days did

[01:02:05] those guys work for him really you know because i always wanted to work i always liked to pay bills

[01:02:11] on time it's the midwest thing and when everything crashed i had like 25 cents left by the time i got

[01:02:18] from paying gas by the time i got to illinois that's when you hit the first toll road and the

[01:02:25] woman just i just come up to her and go what i do i don't have i don't want to use my visa and she

[01:02:32] just hands me an envelope says no no you can just send in the fee i'm like oh thank i can make it home now

[01:02:40] because i was still hanging out when i'd come home briefly i'd always stay at my parents so i knew from

[01:02:48] that point in illinois i could because i had a renouli car an r5 a great mountain car right

[01:02:55] i got stuck a lot but anyways i made it all on like i had 20 i think it was 28 cents in my pocket

[01:03:03] and i said all the people i met that wanted me to guide for them for these different companies

[01:03:10] they're all from detroit chicago minneapolis i'm like why am i living on like this very expensive

[01:03:18] territory when i could be by my ice cream my cheese and lake superior which i loved i just love

[01:03:25] kayaking and canoeing and stuff and i just like i want to see water again this dry crap out west is not for me

[01:03:33] plus i i never liked the sun beating down on me i climbed a lot in the desert with lenny

[01:03:39] i just like i after five days i had to hide in the shade right to sit my head in the colorado river to

[01:03:46] cool down so anyways yeah i i it was because of that i was forced to go back and forced to think about

[01:03:54] how am i going to guide the whole drive i'm just like i can do this i can do this i can because i knew

[01:04:02] a lot of shops because when i would come home i'd give slide shows there were no reis but there were

[01:04:08] a lot of mountaineering shops in the midwest back then you know that had climbing gear and backpacking

[01:04:14] stuff and they and they all ready from the early 80s liked my slide shows so in the tail end 84 85 when

[01:04:22] all this came down in colorado i just i tailed it back for i loved the most especially my devil's lake

[01:04:30] believe it or not i was missing no friction right what's wrong with that

[01:04:37] so anyways yeah when i moved back you know and right away and at that point is when i was starting

[01:04:43] to make calls and talk with glenn randall because in 86 87 is one we really got together to create

[01:04:51] what we call the american mountain guide association so i knew all that was developing i said yeah i'm

[01:04:58] jumping in i'm going to be at the top of my chart and i'm going to create this in the midwest and

[01:05:05] somehow i did but a lot of thanks to outside magazine because that was out of chicago they had

[01:05:12] known me from something maybe in my my stories in the papers whatever but they called up and said

[01:05:19] you know let's do a story so i got all this free press from every newspaper it's right away

[01:05:26] i was still teaching a lot of canoeing and stuff and kayaking because rock climbing still wasn't that

[01:05:33] big i i said i can make this work so what years were this what year was that would have been

[01:05:39] 85 86 right is when i moved back and and because that's a trip because i always just say like there was

[01:05:46] no you know it's like i didn't have any exposure to climbing because i was here in the north suburbs

[01:05:52] right and i didn't know about devil's lake yeah there were no gyms right nothing like that but outside was

[01:05:58] also one of my outlets to to find out about it you know reading articles in there and stuff like that

[01:06:03] so oh sure um i mean but so the name was dairy land was that the name of it well yeah that was a very

[01:06:09] dumb call on my part because everyone out west called me the dairy lander and my buddies when i

[01:06:16] came back home they said yeah welcome back cool you know what are you gonna do and i said believe it or

[01:06:22] not i'm gonna try to start it i also had what was called midwest mountain images because i was a good

[01:06:29] photographer and i knew people like me you know for slideshows so i said maybe i can do this professionally

[01:06:35] in charge instead of just trying to get people to come over to me to guide you know and i did i got

[01:06:43] this like even the chicago museum of science had me come and do slideshow so suddenly i'm like cool

[01:06:50] that's working so the guide thing's gotta work right and it was tough though because yeah even with all

[01:06:56] this press how many calls you really get after a story right you know so not enough to keep money

[01:07:03] pouring in so i was still doing you know labor kind of i still building her landscape and whatever i

[01:07:10] could in between and then i also miss jude who we had dated beforehand a couple of times and i had

[01:07:19] enough with the women out west and she had had enough back home we were just sowing our oats back then

[01:07:26] and so in 87 she was a great cross-country skier you know so it's like we'd done the berkey together

[01:07:35] things like that and so like yeah well what do you think you know and she says well i want to buy a

[01:07:41] house and that was in 86 87 and i said well you know i can rebuild it i can do whatever you want you know

[01:07:50] but it's gotta be really cheap because i'm trying to pay back a big loss because i came back with

[01:07:56] nothing and she said well let's let's see and in 88 so i'd known her for eight years now almost nine

[01:08:04] 79 80 i think i met her we finally got married in 88 so yay it worked out

[01:08:13] and she was a big inspiration she she was a graphic designer so she made my brochures really

[01:08:20] cool cooler than the others that you saw at shops when you went to retail shops you know

[01:08:25] my guiding brochure was better than theirs color pictures and everything so i just i always was lucky

[01:08:34] with everyone i met i was just always in the right place at the right time so thanks to all of them

[01:08:41] unfortunately many are gone now right you know so and yeah i mean coming back here was nobody was

[01:08:52] teaching ice climbing of course still even in 87 nobody was really teaching it so i'm like well i had

[01:08:59] plenty of people keeping me busy in the early days so why not and so back then this turn about our our

[01:09:09] turnabout right here at the the lake right behind us that was the voyager in the the road kind of

[01:09:17] narrowed and made just a turn so that whole area behind the dog patch was the voyager in and i had

[01:09:25] known him since like 81 82 when i started bringing people up and he's like well you got a cabin anytime you

[01:09:32] want really cheap too and they were pretty depressing in there i mean they were from like the 40s right

[01:09:38] 30s or 40s so but we'd have like five people because jude would come up she would ski well or sometimes

[01:09:46] she'd go out climbing but usually she would ski while i'm teaching and uh it was a great time because i had

[01:09:53] income constantly coming in i could i proved it would work but then it started to get too big for me

[01:10:01] and thanks to i think it was mr mayfield who joined our amga he was opening like the first huge rock gym

[01:10:11] in oakland isn't that the one you worked at no i was down in la oh you were now okay okay i think that

[01:10:20] was the first real biggie yeah yeah and he's coming to the storyline every amga member time we got together

[01:10:27] every fall and he's like you have to do the gym thing that's the future you know and i'm like

[01:10:36] i hate inside but there's nothing like that in wisconsin you know nothing anywhere near chicago i think

[01:10:45] at that point had one and at the same time in 95 my a younger friend who i had i was teaching there

[01:10:54] w or it wasn't a really first responder course but it was kind of outdoor rescue kind of stuff

[01:11:01] down in bloomington at upper limits right chris chris and i'm like they're trying to make it work they

[01:11:09] were just opening 95 he was still digging out the crud out of those giant grain towers right 95 yeah with

[01:11:16] wheelbarrows thousands of tons of dead pigeons and bad i mean unbelievable i said if they can do it

[01:11:26] i can do it and i'm a builder i can do it all myself you know and i had engineering friends because i said if

[01:11:35] i'm doing this i'm doing it right so i'm the only guy ever known to have cracks of course they fit my hands

[01:11:43] because i made them that way but you could place pro in and fall oh wow i made them bomb proof

[01:11:50] bomb proof so they were cementatious with lots of blends because i've been in construction a long time

[01:11:58] i knew how to play so it was called vertical stronghold so it was the first indoor climbing gym for the

[01:12:04] public my buddy down in milwaukee had an indoor gym at the turner's club but it was for the turner's

[01:12:12] kids and stuff and so i was really the first open to the public and the guys in madison couldn't stand

[01:12:20] that that i pulled it off before them it's like apple then so there was a climbing gym in appleton

[01:12:28] yeah yeah we opened may of 95 closed when i quit guiding in 2007 holy cow yeah yeah believe it or not

[01:12:38] i had no idea but it was huge 12 000 square feet i don't build small i like you know i want to punch

[01:12:46] everyone back a bit uh-huh so they'd have to try to outdo me to get notoriety that was the same with

[01:12:53] guiding i was always trying to do first blowing my mind because i you know i mostly lived in the

[01:12:59] midwest when i wasn't a climber and then i i've climbed around since i've come back and i was i would

[01:13:05] have definitely gone to this gym to see what it was about just had i known it was here because i'm

[01:13:11] i'm coming i mean or not and when did your parents move to green bay well we i they grew up there oh

[01:13:18] they're from green bay originally away and then they moved back um after that i mean in the in the uh

[01:13:27] teens 2000 teens i don't remember exactly when but um but i always visited up here always i mean

[01:13:33] because my all my extended relatives not up here i'm sorry we're sitting in michigan but up up to uh

[01:13:37] up to green bay area like i was definitely a full i mean by 2000 i was like already i mean yeah you

[01:13:45] were into it big time oh yeah yeah that was like past all my old cow stuff i would have totally gone

[01:13:49] to it yeah i think i started already hearing your name back then yeah so that's that's amazing

[01:13:55] yeah and it's anything funny it took 18 years so odyssey just opened this last year

[01:14:01] it took that many years for someone to pull up the mustard to try it again i mean we were so busy

[01:14:08] and everything but i had pelvic issues from carrying huge packs my whole life because this whole time

[01:14:14] remember that i'm doing all this goofy kind of stupid stuff i also had my my dairyland expeditions i was

[01:14:23] noted for my adventure big wall stuff in the bighorns okay i was the only guy that had a permit for

[01:14:30] climbing knolls had one for like adventure camping right but i was the only kind of guy ever in the

[01:14:38] 80s and 90s to 2000 that had a guiding permit for climbing in the bighorns and because i started

[01:14:45] climbing there in 79 80 and i got to know the ranger ladies really well so when i came back to them

[01:14:52] you know with dairyland expeditions they're like she was she didn't retire she was there 30 some years

[01:15:00] um mary i think her name is i don't remember now sorry there was also mary at mount adams who is

[01:15:06] nice enough like i know you're from the midwest and we're gonna have to do this sneakily because you

[01:15:12] know people will complain that we're giving a midwestern a permit on adams she did so thank you

[01:15:19] mary mary mary bean i think it was at the national force i'm like oh you are the best because i had run

[01:15:26] out of alpine ice by the mid 90s late 90s all that beautiful coulars that i would teach people on it

[01:15:35] was all gone the glaciers that we camped on snow all summer gone it's just giant talus now so i saw

[01:15:44] global warming up front every time i was there my courses were long 10 days because i taught them

[01:15:51] rescue everything i wanted people leaving knowing they could just go right out to the canadian rockies

[01:15:58] or anywhere in the rockies and climb something huge and feel super safe you know because that's how i was

[01:16:04] taught right you know you did all that so i wasn't telling them they to be a guide i just wanted to

[01:16:10] train them like they were going to be a guide and and so i enjoy it i was i had four or five every

[01:16:17] summer 10 days so i was out there a lot and those were 90 plus pound packs because they're 10 days and

[01:16:24] that's a long ways in and finally it took me down i think it was 2006 i just i i was vacationing in italy

[01:16:37] and i thought someone stabbed me in the back i screamed a shriek and went down and all these

[01:16:45] italians are trying to lift me up and i'm like ah it's good i told jude i had my climbing pack the

[01:16:51] weather is horrible up in the mountains so i couldn't do what i wanted to so we were just vacationing

[01:16:58] you know in firenza and in uh that was on my uh the marco de platz uh or whatever san marco de platz

[01:17:06] when it was something down in the village and uh so jude ran back because she knew i had my med kit

[01:17:13] with a lot of stuff in it and ran it back and by then everyone had left me alone and were just asking

[01:17:20] me and i had practiced my italian so i was trying to go from spanish to italian and you know they they

[01:17:26] were really nice to me one guy i think was gonna go grab ice or whatever but by the time jude's back

[01:17:32] she had the heavy meds and i took them and i was able to get up and at least limp back to the hotel

[01:17:37] room and it stayed hurting for two weeks so when i came back and had it looked at the spine specialist

[01:17:44] said you know there's there's no cartilage or anything in the center of your iliac crest that

[01:17:49] holds your spine in place i mean you can still do what you do but you if you keep doing all the time

[01:17:56] you're gonna be a 90 plus year old guy in like five years walking like that i'm like i don't want that

[01:18:04] so that's why i shut everything down 2006 we just like boom boom boom shut you know i had already shut

[01:18:12] down dairy land expeditions because i knew i couldn't keep pushing because my hip was and her pelvis was

[01:18:18] hurting all the time wasn't hip so just pelvis so the iliac crest that holds your spine left and right

[01:18:24] it was just riding onto my all the whole nerve system for the pure formis and glute minimis and all

[01:18:32] that so i had to stop guiding i never dreamed i would stop guiding and it ended it like that

[01:18:39] could you still climb oh yeah i could climb it definitely and i just kept climbing more for

[01:18:46] stretching mainly you know so let's talk a little bit about the um and keep wandering sorry the scene

[01:18:53] up here um yeah you know you're you're like discovering ice climbing here in the midwest i mean not you

[01:19:00] specifically but yeah you guys are exploring all along lake superior both sides yeah i mean because

[01:19:07] that's another funny so sean perron who we all know here really well he was guiding

[01:19:11] in thunder bay and i had already got a work visa because i i knew there's great stuff up there because

[01:19:18] one of my first partners from indianapolis we did a run around the whole lake for three weeks

[01:19:24] it was like late february early march and just like we're hitting stuff left and right and he was a big

[01:19:30] photographer too so we had all these great pictures of us on the oldies ice and then

[01:19:37] it was the mid to late 80s i had seen sean's stuff not not his guidebook or anything but

[01:19:46] like in the mccullum cabin that they talk about up at orient bay that did burn down in the mid late 80s

[01:19:52] but i knew he was stuck because i was renting it too but we had never met and then at the big ice

[01:20:00] fest or whatever they called the winter fest in minneapolis saint paul at midwest mountaineering

[01:20:07] they always held this huge thing for sales for winter coming up in fall and i finally said i'm

[01:20:13] gonna have i get asked by minneapolis folks to show up there one i push my guiding stuff there i i wandered

[01:20:21] away to look at gear and jude had met this guy who was rifling through all my slides because i had a

[01:20:29] projector on the tabletop with a little screen behind and it was showing pictures and here he's

[01:20:35] rifling through as it well goes past the slide tray thing he's pulling up to see the dates and he's

[01:20:42] like you're polking eh and i'm like are you sean because i had seen a picture of him or something

[01:20:51] and and it's like big hugs like we finally met and he goes you're predating me on a bunch of this

[01:20:58] stuff i'm like i thought you had it all done on most of your stuff you know he goes no no now i have

[01:21:08] to change the book i mean it was just a little tight book yeah so it's easy to have to change but he put a

[01:21:15] fuss about it but ever since then we were like brothers so um yeah so i i covered lake superior

[01:21:26] is 82 is a real big push that's when we did three weeks non-stop just back and forth everything up on

[01:21:32] top looking and searching because there was i didn't have a guidebook but you could see that big

[01:21:37] stuff right from the road so it's just some matter and because there were no ice climbers you had a

[01:21:42] punch hip deep through the snow so it would take you all the day to do one damn climb you know but

[01:21:49] they're long climbs you know way over one rope length a lot of times so i was in my helmet my

[01:21:57] buddy that did this thing with me he wasn't so much he would go off an evening smoking dope with

[01:22:03] someone he met whatever and it would be a late start the next day so it kind of peed me off but

[01:22:10] he was willing to belay me up anything that's all i wanted well i mean let me ask you about then the the

[01:22:16] like i said the scene because you know it's like there's cultures and you know you you were a western

[01:22:21] climber and then you came back here and i think it's probably really really unique and and the

[01:22:27] history show that i watched this morning like confirmed that it's it's its own flavor i mean

[01:22:32] you know i tell people when they're like yeah you're going to michigan ice home like yeah it's kind of

[01:22:36] this weird upper midwest it's like kind of this kind of mix of sort of sled head culture with ice

[01:22:43] climbing culture with like beer drinking farm boy culture and like it's just kind of this really

[01:22:49] unique i think mix of like climbing culture up here i mean what do you have to say about oh like

[01:22:55] having traveled all around to to come back here to this kind of unique scene it's definitely different

[01:23:00] because nobody tries to override each other okay but that's typical in midwest right right it's like oh

[01:23:07] no i can't be as good as you are right you know and so you just do your best and then you find out

[01:23:13] no one touched what you did and go oh that's kind of cool but come on with me let's go do it again you

[01:23:19] know so yeah like eric landman who you watched this morning i don't remember if we met at doubles lake

[01:23:25] or up here first but that all led to the first ice fest so when we met mark reich i think eric prime

[01:23:34] met him first and then they said hey you got to meet pk because he's been up here doing so much stuff

[01:23:40] you know we said i think we can pull off because we knew sean had he called he's really the first one

[01:23:46] with an ice fest in that little mccallum cabin i think he called it ice fest so we kind of stole

[01:23:52] it from sean i think but we had eight or ten people that first one what year about you remember that it

[01:23:59] was it was eric thinks it was 89 or 9 because mark was the year before like 80 89 he was starting to type

[01:24:07] up that great lakes ice climbing newsletter okay and that was our only thing that kept us together

[01:24:15] but you know it was typed up took them a couple weeks then it go out in the mail you know so you

[01:24:20] were always behind the times what was going on but you know so when we had that first batch it's like this

[01:24:28] is cool and i think we had sean show slide shows because the next year they wanted me to show my

[01:24:35] slide show of like a a south american trip i did because i pulled some crazy stuff off down there too but

[01:24:44] it was it was like suddenly 18 people wow 20 and we said this is out of hand

[01:24:51] what do you think that what do you think that's what we call bill what do you think the gender ratio

[01:24:56] was always 18 dudes or it was only spouses or girlfriends right you know so i love how it's

[01:25:04] changed it's totally flipped there's way more women out there now we ever dreamed about so yeah that

[01:25:12] wasn't happening back then you know and like i told the group this morning it or yesterday um you know

[01:25:19] seeing this really cool thing from the inner cities and that really was started with my buddy down at

[01:25:24] the turner's club in milwaukee because he created an inner city thing to get the kids out of cars that

[01:25:30] were living out of cars and teach them how to climb take them outdoors and and now that's spread to

[01:25:36] detroit chicago it's everywhere now and i'm just so it's incredible i mean i'm just like you guys

[01:25:43] are so so far advanced from what we were sharing this kind of stuff you know we it was a white man

[01:25:53] old white man sport ice climbing you know even rock climbing kind of was yeah but at least there

[01:25:59] were a lot of women in rock climbing but not ice climbing not up here because it was hot it was brutal

[01:26:06] you know the place a chenard ice crew would almost kill you you know so why would you want to do that

[01:26:13] it wasn't fun you know but i think that's the the thing about it is and i remember feeling this too is

[01:26:20] it you know i loved the uniqueness of of rock climbing like because it was still very underground and yeah

[01:26:27] like you know you go out west and it's less so but then the ice climbing when i started it felt even more

[01:26:33] so like it became even a smaller tribe and then oh yeah but then i was thinking i was in colorado so

[01:26:39] i was climbing in rocky mountain national park and things like that you come back here the squid comes

[01:26:43] like one of my favorite climbs yeah the squid i did all mixed up back in the day like that was when

[01:26:49] it was cutting edge now it's just some like silly slap i'm sure yeah it's just such a unique thing to

[01:26:54] have this like i mean a minuscule group of guys who all know each other nobody's there's like nobody out

[01:27:02] there doing anything on the slide it was a brotherhood yeah completely yeah i mean i felt so close to

[01:27:09] and it's funny sean eric the whole group especially mark who unfortunately passed away when he was you

[01:27:15] know so young but um yeah i mean the ice climbing group up here because no it wasn't in the mountains

[01:27:23] so they didn't even know what climbing was a rope climbing so up here you were just a bizarro

[01:27:29] guy if you show up with stuff like that and take it out of your car is i grew up with like uh deer

[01:27:36] hunting culture oh yeah i wasn't in it myself but you know look how huge that was and my dad is a farm

[01:27:41] kid and like still has deer camp you know and and that's kind of those pictures it was like the clothes

[01:27:46] are different yeah you know it's like because it was the 80s and so it's like all those pinks and

[01:27:51] purples and shit where it would have been orange right so it doesn't it's not too different because

[01:27:56] like blaze orange you know stands out too it does and those pictures just reminded me of pictures of

[01:28:01] deer camp you know what i mean and it kind of was like that same thing it's also like a lot of

[01:28:06] drinking it they brought their own yeah um you know a lot of drinking involved which is basically

[01:28:12] what deer camp is too yeah so yeah and that it's just the cultural thing is really fascinating um

[01:28:17] unfortunately hunters still go out somewhat still tipsy whereas climbers usually are cleaned up by the

[01:28:23] next morning well yeah i don't know about that sometimes maybe the booze is right yeah

[01:28:31] um but yeah i mean you know we've been going for a while here and i still want to hit a little

[01:28:35] bit about this about this midwest ice climbing thing um yeah i mean yeah did you like did you

[01:28:41] spray it to the to the to the your western climbing buddies i mean did you did you guys try

[01:28:48] to kind of import or were you just it was just not not my i mean really you know once it got to 18

[01:28:55] and we called bill and said do you want to do something with this and he's like sure right away

[01:29:01] because he was always a yes guy right he never turned it down he built bill thompson bill thompson

[01:29:06] yeah from the best yeah wonderful guy yeah you know arnie didn't have a shot arnie was still working

[01:29:11] at the air force base but those two were inseparable so we loved them both like brothers

[01:29:16] and and they were like yeah yeah we'll take it on but we just cared about chicago detroit

[01:29:24] minnesota just because we knew everybody there and i i never mentioned it to anyone out west you

[01:29:31] when i moved out there they'd say well where'd you learn and i always would just say oh i learned

[01:29:36] to be a guide in north cascades albine school right i because they had plenty of their own ice so why

[01:29:43] share i mean truly jude and i would ski out for years nobody in sight ever right and then to to walk

[01:29:54] into larry's office here at the park service and say could i have a permit i want to i want a guide up

[01:30:00] here and he's like what the hell's that you know and i showed him i said can you come out during a

[01:30:05] class and just see what i do he was willing and he goes well how do we go about this and i'm like well

[01:30:13] you look for liability stuff in your treasure chest and i'll give you my national park or my national

[01:30:20] forest service permit for the big horns can you do something with that you know and luckily i found

[01:30:26] someone else i think there's a pot a friend that worked for the apostle island said we have

[01:30:31] we don't have ice climbing but we have like extraordinary events type of liability forms

[01:30:38] so i'm like cool it's national park service that'll help larry and so i gave him the stuff

[01:30:43] and basically he just copied my forest service one because it did say climb it mentioned that stuff in

[01:30:48] it and and he's like just sign it he says i learned enough just watching you do what you were doing

[01:30:55] that day i know you're safe and all that and so you know i not only had it to myself before guiding i

[01:31:03] had it to myself for the next 15 years still i mean it took to till 90 91 when we started the ice fast

[01:31:12] that anyone knew about it right so no one knows about it still the late 70s the late 70s 80s i had

[01:31:19] it all to myself and jude belayed me on all those first hard things because i hardly ever had climber

[01:31:28] partners that wanted to drive up here they were either from minnesota or wherever too far away

[01:31:33] and jude was jude was a climber back then and she didn't always follow me so she was overhanging but

[01:31:41] she always belayed me no matter how damn cold it was but back then again the ice went way out so

[01:31:46] we we never did anything from the top i didn't know what any of this looked like from the top

[01:31:51] until we started to lose our winters we just skied we always skied yeah yeah we always skied out there

[01:31:59] sometimes it'd be really ruffled ice right but there's always snow that you could get out there

[01:32:04] maybe you had to go further out and then ski back in but the ice was miles out you could not

[01:32:11] see the end of it right you know so we always had that back then it was until the late 90s 98 99 was

[01:32:19] like the first year we suddenly don't see ice forming like what's this wow yeah this is not good

[01:32:28] and just keep getting worse so what about like i mean i kind of want to ask you this earlier but um

[01:32:33] i mean what about close calls like you kind of like yeah i went did all this wild stuff um i mean

[01:32:40] up up here you know i was just lucky yeah i never had well i mean big right i would launch you know if

[01:32:50] i step off of one icicle onto another luckily never on jude or she would have just walked away like

[01:32:56] undid the belay and walked away it's you're up to you to get up that now you know but um i launched

[01:33:03] some very large things that i thought were stable i always leaned over did the big stem kicked thinking

[01:33:11] yeah they're bomber but i still launched a few and luckily my you know and sometimes i was already on

[01:33:17] them and took a long ride but my screws are always high somewhere else before i took the step you know

[01:33:26] so i i never had one that i was worried about you know so just knock wood that i was because i had

[01:33:34] partners that were so good that are gone now that you know and it is just it was mother nature against

[01:33:41] them wasn't them wasn't their mistake they're just in the wrong place at the wrong time and then

[01:33:46] at array i mean i haven't had anything exciting happen to me for a long time and my tools were

[01:33:53] luckily it was it had just finally cooled down the last day we were there you're talking about last

[01:33:58] week yeah it just cooled down the day we had to leave and i'm like i want to leave because we i was

[01:34:04] only able to lead the first day so the whole first middle four days weren't that much fun so i went

[01:34:09] skiing and walking and bouldering in the sun and then the last day was cold i'm like okay there's one

[01:34:15] i'm eyeing up that no one touched under the bridge like three icicles all separated but they were

[01:34:22] touching down and look thick enough but i should have should you know i was always taught like i said

[01:34:28] from the the breach the book don't go if you think it's too warm and i should have should have had that on

[01:34:35] my brain because overnight it had dropped to 30 or 28 and by the time we got there's probably back up to

[01:34:43] 30 and that time had not solidified anything not enough time not enough there's still and so of course

[01:34:50] my tools were in a good spot and as soon as i put my weight on that separated pillar the whole thing just

[01:34:57] comes off but luckily just leaned into the wall and didn't fall backwards or something because jesse was

[01:35:04] i saw his eyes get as big as mine because i looked down because i i you know i mean it left my feet right

[01:35:10] so i'm on my arm suddenly and i'm like damn it but luckily it did stop just on a tiptoe and i could get

[01:35:17] to the wall of rock on an overhanging rock and stem and i was able to get up higher again because there was

[01:35:23] another little icicle nearby so big stem i got up over that and then stupid me i'm like oh that was

[01:35:32] rotten looking i shouldn't know better because when it came off my legs were just getting poured on

[01:35:37] so i knew there's way more water than i like running through that far out of the ice but then it's like

[01:35:45] the next icicles one was a new blue one that happened two weeks ago and nobody touched it was

[01:35:53] perfect and it was touching the darker one behind it and i'm like it should be all right i think it's

[01:36:00] all right so i keep going up and i'm like halfway up it and now my tool and my full re i got a long

[01:36:07] reach so it's almost at the top of the next hanging icicle and it cracked right down exactly on the line

[01:36:15] between blue and dark ice it just like cleaves i had never seen that happen before i'm like i am not

[01:36:23] trusting anything now so i just down climbed pulled my screws out as i down climbed luckily that pillar that

[01:36:31] had fallen had leaned against the wall within my my length so i just put my tools and really down low

[01:36:39] by my feet and just lowered myself skittering along a rock wall until my foot touched that pillar you

[01:36:46] know and then just took one tool and jammed it in the top of the slushy part of that pillar and just

[01:36:52] got the hell out of it there was one next to it that was a fun lead but it wasn't what i wanted

[01:37:01] i mean it sounds like your body's still working it yeah other than my pelvis right i'm still like

[01:37:08] yesterday they're all doing that pumpy thing where they had to put a pack on and hang on and i said i

[01:37:14] really need to pop my back because that's the only way i can do it is do twisty things like i do in my

[01:37:19] basement so you know he has the tools all the way over the top of that wood board so i put the pick ends at

[01:37:27] the very edge like you would if you're ice climbing you know like around rock climbing you know so my

[01:37:33] the sharp points are right at the outside edge of that board he's going you're not gonna hang on that

[01:37:38] i'm like oh yeah i am and then i did a bunch of figure fours in front everybody trying to pop my back

[01:37:44] and it didn't pop and i just quit and then i walk away and then everyone's like

[01:37:50] do you always do that and i'm like well that's kind of my training practice down in the basement

[01:37:57] because i have boards along the main beam and i just do figure fours back and forth and then i

[01:38:04] always try to do a hundred chin-ups with my feet straight ahead of me but i have to have a chair i can't

[01:38:10] do them like a gymnast anymore i gotta put my foot on something out in front of me so i and i try to stay in

[01:38:18] shape but i got my buddy saul professor emeritus of stevens point brilliant mind of biochemistry and

[01:38:28] stuff i mean he still climbs as hard as i do at 81 so i'm put to shame i'm like i am not in good

[01:38:36] enough shape but now i got really bad arthritis probably from all the cold crap i did well i know

[01:38:42] what it was caught they said by looking at the tissue that's all these lumps that it was caused by

[01:38:48] uh an accident and i'm like yeah because i caught a rock coming at my face with this hand and this

[01:38:54] hand within a year of each other have been when i moved out to colorado i sold the um our heroes from

[01:39:02] devil's lake um the brothers paul statner's statner brothers yeah so i i soloed their bottom

[01:39:09] route now it's just about to climb i was i was gonna go do the original five eight

[01:39:17] on longs yeah on long yeah the center's ledges yeah into alexander's chimney what's the five eight

[01:39:24] favorite climb just off from the casual route i can't remember but anyways i was getting solo that

[01:39:31] and then i hear screens from above and all this rock coming flying all over and it was just my

[01:39:40] my vision you know peripheral vision was good and i just put my hand up and i got slugged by a softball

[01:39:49] rock and it hurt hell i couldn't climb for two weeks that hand hurt bad next like the very next year

[01:39:55] i was at um somewhere it was in rocky mountain same thing big rock fall luckily i hear a scream so some

[01:40:04] climbers way up above saw it happening by a time it's like shit flying all around me i'm tucked under an

[01:40:11] overhang and i put this hand up just out of a reflex and it would have taken my head off i mean because

[01:40:19] the way it hit my hand and it was again a big softball size rock so both hands to this day are

[01:40:27] kind of i cannot squeeze anymore i drop my beautiful cups my wife buys from a friend who does ceramics

[01:40:35] and i'm just washing dishes and it just comes right out of my hand i'm like i'm sorry

[01:40:41] broke another dish but you can hold an ice tool i can hold an ice tool forever and i can crimp

[01:40:47] little tiny crimps so devil's lake right that's made for me no rifle but i can't i can't go in

[01:40:55] i loved crack climbing i love the desert i love cracks and i i can do it if it's like

[01:41:03] like just no squeezing right like a bone lock but i can't squeeze

[01:41:08] which is really pitiful because that's my favorite kind of climb and just one after another

[01:41:13] there you go painful getting older let me ask you the last question um you know we're up at this

[01:41:21] fest it's like bonkers compared to the the 18 person or the nine right right i know what bill did with

[01:41:28] this amazing um you've got you know you've got issues of of warming up here we i mean we're dealing

[01:41:33] with it at this fest this year it's like the ice all the ice fell down um it's gone for the moment um

[01:41:39] yeah you know it's probably different up on the up on the north shore um not much but you know but

[01:41:45] what about the future of of climbing up here like i mean i imagine after this weekend it's not crowded

[01:41:51] anymore and it's like right and and some of those other places probably aren't still i mean is there

[01:41:56] still like the experiences that you remember as far as as uh as people and um community and things like

[01:42:03] that up here or what's the we never had the communities part of this until the imax when they

[01:42:11] put welcome imax and suddenly the whole city was packed with people following the imax crews

[01:42:18] suddenly what bill got his first thank you not until 2015 when that happened when what happened when

[01:42:27] imax came out so conrad you know he's told we have to do this it was must have been the imax for the

[01:42:34] 100 years okay of the national park okay and they're talking to conrad they're saying we need you

[01:42:40] ice climbing he's like we had no ice in the rockies it was a bad winter dry and warm he goes believe it or

[01:42:50] not there's a national it's not called a national park he had to warn him that right it's a national

[01:42:56] sign but it's the national park service that runs it and they're like michigan you want us to you know

[01:43:05] we're out here to visit you and go ice climbing he's like michigan so as soon as conrad alerted bill

[01:43:13] and everyone else like we have to arrange for this and so up go the signs welcome imax and this crew

[01:43:20] comes here and they're just like can't believe what they see ice climbers and and and that was the first time

[01:43:28] after all these years of bill bringing in hundreds of people eating and drinking that he ever got thanked

[01:43:37] that was sad i was i was always mad at munising for not helping you know

[01:43:42] after that suddenly oh you know you went to high school or the high school the old school right

[01:43:49] suddenly everything changed only because he brought a bunch of cash it right

[01:43:55] you know it's not humanity driven at all right it's always about greed so anyways

[01:44:02] yeah what about the climbing so and so but the fact that now that now that that's brought so many

[01:44:08] people in i have so many new wonderful young friends and climbing buddies you know his and hers that just

[01:44:17] say let's go climbing pk i'm like oh thank you thank you thank you because you know i want to go

[01:44:24] climbing but i don't have any friends my age anymore that want to do what i do that's the problem

[01:44:30] i still like the o-ring and shit that is an issue

[01:44:37] and i feel comfortable you know i mean i test everything really

[01:44:42] just not last week i didn't test enough obviously to the kick tartar but anyways um that this is just

[01:44:50] incredible what's happened and bill i can't think it up for what he took

[01:44:54] from us and just kept blowing it up bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger you know

[01:45:00] and i get to see old friends you know well not this year but wilford we've known each other since

[01:45:06] fort collins days oh he doesn't remember those days because we were both young and stupid but

[01:45:12] you know when he got to know me when i was starting to guide and started to ask you know do you want any

[01:45:18] gear you know and i'd see him at devil's lake when he was out training all the gear shops

[01:45:24] you know suddenly we became brothers you know it's like oh thanks mark because he'd always drop me

[01:45:30] off like brand new pair of boots or something you know like wow that's really nice because no

[01:45:36] none of the other dealers did that for us in the midwest

[01:45:41] so i was always thankful and mark came here every year this is like the first year

[01:45:47] so we really miss him it's been a long time that he's been coming up here

[01:45:54] but yeah so i get to see friends but it's these young folks i mean i never dreamed right because

[01:46:02] it was an old man to all those years of guiding it was guys with a lot of money that could afford me

[01:46:08] because i was a guide you know so i got a lot of freebies from them too hotel room stays and like

[01:46:15] one gentleman who i rock climbed for years he would give me like five swatch watches because he was

[01:46:22] like the ceo for swiss watch company and i'd say not five he goes no you need them because they're so

[01:46:30] shitty though though they won't work after a week so i'm giving you a whole pile but i see them for

[01:46:37] this price in chicago he goes yeah don't buy them i'll give them to you so i mean wonderful folks

[01:46:45] through all these years and the ice climbing was such a part of it because we were alone up here

[01:46:52] you know that family is just municing i mean it has grown towards marquette because now they got

[01:46:58] their own wall and stuff like that but it was always just municing if it wasn't orient bay or thunder bay

[01:47:07] you know we had this this is all ours but we're willing to share and look what it's done yay yay bill

[01:47:20] go bill all right folks thanks for listening and thanks to paul for coming to the hotel room and

[01:47:44] sitting down that was a blast i could hardly contain him a lot of joy coming out of that guy a lot of joy

[01:47:51] around climbing and if you want to hang out with paul come to the michigan ice fest i think he's doing

[01:47:57] some sort of clinic where you climb with his old shit hummingbird ice tools those things were still

[01:48:04] in vogue when i started ice climbing says how long ago that was foot fangs i definitely had some

[01:48:10] foot fangs so yeah come to his clinic try to place those fucking ice screws while getting pumped

[01:48:17] out of your mind leashes cutting circulation off to your hands it will be so miserable it'll be fun

[01:48:24] okay it's late november almost thanksgiving happy thanksgiving to all you guys and don't forget the

[01:48:31] normal cast sponsors when it comes to gift giving this year sportiva yeti black diamond get some coffee

[01:48:38] that's a nice aromatic stocking stuffer isn't it something romantic from peter w gilroy whatever it is

[01:48:46] don't forget to support the normal cast this holiday season during your gift giving okay i hope you ice

[01:48:53] climbers have your tools sharp hope you rock climbers are finding some respite indoors from the cold

[01:48:59] and i hope everybody's checking their knots

[01:49:02] when you follow your bliss and by bliss i mean the deep sense of being in it and doing what the

[01:49:29] push is out of your own existence you follow that and doors will open where there would you would

[01:49:36] not have thought there were going to be doors and where there wouldn't be a door for anybody else

[01:49:40] and there's something about the integrity of a life and the world moves in and and helps

[01:49:46] you

[01:49:47] and there's something about the need for you so yeah

[01:49:52] you

[01:49:52] Thank you.