Continue reading "Enormocast 295: Aaron Peterson – Paying His Dues"
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[00:02:51] That's a big place.
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[00:04:00] Hello and welcome to the NormoCast.
[00:04:02] This is your host, Chris Caloose.
[00:04:03] It is October 28th, 2024, about 1 p.m. here in Colorado.
[00:04:09] And this is episode 295 of the NormoCast, a conversation with climber and activist Aaron Peterson.
[00:04:18] But before we get to that, a quick shout for my upcoming event, a live talk with Barry Blanchard up at the Banff Mountain Film Festival this coming Saturday, the 2nd, 10 a.m., free of charge.
[00:04:33] It's going to be awesome.
[00:04:34] I talked to Barry the other day on Zoom and we got some stuff worked out.
[00:04:38] Only problem is time.
[00:04:39] How do we fit Barry Blanchard into an hour?
[00:04:42] We won't, but we'll get to some great stuff.
[00:04:45] And he's agreed that we'll possibly do a follow-up.
[00:04:49] Because, man, that guy's life is not an hour's worth.
[00:04:52] I will tell you that.
[00:04:53] You'll probably hear this afterwards, but what the heck.
[00:04:57] Info at BanffCenter.ca.
[00:05:00] And that center spelled the Canadian way.
[00:05:03] November 2nd, 10 a.m.
[00:05:06] Be there.
[00:05:07] Okay, let's get to the conversation with Aaron.
[00:05:09] Aaron Peterson.
[00:05:10] I wanted to talk to Aaron Peterson because he's one of these youngish climbers for whom climbing kind of motivates in a little bit different way than when I was a quote unquote youngish climber.
[00:05:23] In my 20s, the thought of any sort of activism, protests, political movements conjoined with my climbing motivations was basically unheard of.
[00:05:34] You guys out there that have been climbing as long as I have, the few of you who are still alive.
[00:05:39] Just kidding.
[00:05:40] You know, I think you can probably agree with me that it wasn't really on the table.
[00:05:45] We didn't care that much.
[00:05:46] Okay.
[00:05:47] And sometimes when I look at people like Aaron or this younger generation who I run into a lot or I see online a lot for whom climbing is some sort of protest or their voice within climbing is combined with their voice for activism.
[00:06:03] It makes me scratch my head because in a lot of ways when I went into the world of climbing, I wanted to disappear from all that stuff.
[00:06:11] I didn't want to have it bother me.
[00:06:12] And so, you know, being a crusty old guy, I thought I would investigate this world and Aaron's profile on Instagram seemed like a great place to start because Aaron in some ways doesn't have the choice of forgetting about it all because of the color of his skin.
[00:06:26] And he's a black climber and he grew up in a place where inequality was kind of in his face as he grew up.
[00:06:33] So the choice to kind of disappear into climbing wasn't necessarily given to him the way it was a suburban white boy like myself back in the day.
[00:06:43] And then I think the climbing zeitgeist in general is much more full of people like Aaron, people who want to make a statement beyond just how hard they climb or what they have climbed.
[00:06:53] And it's funny because we both want that and sometimes we don't want that.
[00:06:57] It depends on our attitude on any given day.
[00:07:00] Like, hey, just shut up and talk about the climbing.
[00:07:02] And then sometimes we want someone who's doing something about the things that they care about.
[00:07:08] And we want people to be out there fighting the man.
[00:07:11] And even the last 10 years, we've had this growth of activism and climbing around inclusion, around opportunities for underserved communities to be in climbing.
[00:07:22] And that also can sometimes make old people like me scratch their heads.
[00:07:27] Like, why do we care about that?
[00:07:29] Can't anyone just go buy a pair of climbing shoes and go climbing?
[00:07:32] Well, I think that's a pretty simplistic way of looking at things.
[00:07:36] And I think it's a way to dismiss a lot of things that would otherwise make us uncomfortable about how the world works.
[00:07:41] So anyway, that's my motivation for talking to Aaron.
[00:07:45] Seemed like a cool guy.
[00:07:47] We started talking online and decided to get this thing done and met up in Lander.
[00:07:51] The one warning I will give you is that this is political.
[00:07:55] Aaron has a point of view.
[00:07:56] A point of view that I think I mostly agree with in essence, although we don't hammer that part home.
[00:08:02] But don't worry, we don't go full nugget.
[00:08:04] It's just we end up talking about racism.
[00:08:06] We end up talking about Donald Trump.
[00:08:08] And we end up talking about the counter movement to Black Lives Matter, known as Blue Lives Matter or the Thin Blue Line.
[00:08:16] And the stuff that Aaron's encountered in his life, which is vastly different than what I've encountered in my life.
[00:08:24] Which is, of course, why I need to talk to someone like Aaron.
[00:08:29] And I broke this one up with some tracks that Aaron produced back in the day.
[00:08:33] He was a hip-hop producer in Phoenix before he became a climber.
[00:08:38] And he graciously gave me some tracks to pop into here.
[00:08:41] I don't know if I've ever had any hip-hop tracks on the EnormaCast.
[00:08:45] Maybe.
[00:08:46] It's been a long time doing this thing.
[00:08:48] Who knows?
[00:08:49] But yeah, I broke this one up.
[00:08:50] Do something a little bit different with some music in there.
[00:08:52] If you want to hear the full tracks, you can go check out the show notes on your podcast app or EnormaCast.com.
[00:08:59] And head over to SoundCloud and hear the full tracks that Aaron helped produce in his former life.
[00:09:06] All right.
[00:09:07] Are we good?
[00:09:08] Before you move on and let some politics get under your skin a little bit, it's not going to hurt.
[00:09:14] And at some point in this episode's life at the top of the feed in the next two weeks, the election's going to happen.
[00:09:21] Then, holy shit.
[00:09:24] Either way it goes, at least it'll be over.
[00:09:27] Huh.
[00:09:27] That's not likely.
[00:09:29] All right.
[00:09:30] Let's get to Aaron Peterson.
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[00:10:48] I'm totally appreciative of the lengths that you've gone through for us to sit in front of each other.
[00:10:54] I brought it up.
[00:10:55] We just messaged online.
[00:10:57] And then all of a sudden, you're like, I'll make this happen face-to-face.
[00:11:01] Oh, yeah.
[00:11:01] And change your plans to be here.
[00:11:02] And I totally appreciate that.
[00:11:12] That's really important.
[00:11:14] Because I looked at your car and saw the Arizona plates, and I'm like, that's got to be him.
[00:11:18] But anyway.
[00:11:19] Yeah.
[00:11:19] It's easy to spot me for sure.
[00:11:22] But yeah, I was in Tensleep, and then I was at Devil's Tower and City of Rocks and then Indian Creek before this.
[00:11:29] Okay.
[00:11:29] Wow.
[00:11:30] Yeah.
[00:11:31] So did you just come from Tensleep immediately this time?
[00:11:34] Or didn't you go to Montana or something?
[00:11:36] No, I was on my way.
[00:11:37] I was going to go to Montana from Tensleep because it was starting to get kind of hot.
[00:11:41] Yeah.
[00:11:42] And then we talked, and then you were like, maybe we can go to Colorado and record in person.
[00:11:47] I was like, well, it's kind of the opposite direction where I'm going.
[00:11:50] So I was like, I should just make this.
[00:11:54] I really want to do it in person because I just feel like it would be better, you know?
[00:11:57] Yeah.
[00:11:58] It is.
[00:11:58] Always.
[00:11:58] Yeah.
[00:11:59] And it's really important to me to get this message out there and just make it as best as possible while I have this chance.
[00:12:08] And so I was like, maybe if we can just meet up here in Lander.
[00:12:12] Yeah.
[00:12:12] Cool.
[00:12:12] Perfect.
[00:12:13] And you seem like a guy that's been out traveling and you've got, you're one of these dudes who shows up and there's going to be friends at the crag.
[00:12:21] Oh, yeah.
[00:12:22] Friends at the event or friends wherever you end up.
[00:12:24] Is that accurate to say?
[00:12:26] Have you gathered like this kind of road community?
[00:12:29] I think so, but I think it's just the climbing community in general.
[00:12:33] Like I did a similar trip last year, like six-month road trip across the country, and I just went solo.
[00:12:40] And everywhere I went, there was homies.
[00:12:43] But I don't know if it's necessarily because of me, but I think all the climbers just move with the weather.
[00:12:48] Yeah, right.
[00:12:49] So.
[00:12:50] Yeah, totally.
[00:12:51] It's like weather and just kind of trends.
[00:12:54] Yeah.
[00:12:55] Yeah, all the trends.
[00:12:56] It's funny.
[00:12:56] And then you see everybody climbing in one spot, and then I have the worst FOMO ever.
[00:13:01] And I just want to hang out with everybody and see everybody.
[00:13:06] So everybody ends up just being in the same spot, I feel like.
[00:13:10] I mean, I've been following you for a while.
[00:13:11] You know, you just like, I just follow climbers.
[00:13:14] Yeah.
[00:13:14] You know, I try to just keep my feed climby.
[00:13:18] Climbers in music, and I'm really into actually dance.
[00:13:22] Yeah.
[00:13:22] I follow all these crazy dance accounts from country style, like dancing to ballet.
[00:13:29] Like dance is also one of my jams on Instagram.
[00:13:32] But I just, because I like to keep it all kind of, you know.
[00:13:36] It's fun.
[00:13:37] Yeah.
[00:13:37] Yeah, for sure.
[00:13:38] It's good.
[00:13:38] But then, you know, I was looking, I've been watching it, and I saw this kind of shift
[00:13:45] on your Instagram.
[00:13:46] For sure.
[00:13:47] To being, you know, to sort of activism, to talking about issues of race in politics and
[00:13:55] things like that.
[00:13:56] And it was pretty abrupt.
[00:13:58] Yes.
[00:13:58] And then when I saw you, and I was like, oh, that's that dude.
[00:14:02] But I didn't want to race up to you or whatever, because then I'd be like, oh, hey, it's a
[00:14:06] black guy with dreads.
[00:14:07] You must be Aaron.
[00:14:07] Oh, my God.
[00:14:08] And it would be somebody else.
[00:14:09] And I'd be like, oh, God, I just did it.
[00:14:10] It's happened so many times.
[00:14:12] So I didn't want to be that guy, but I was like 90% sure.
[00:14:16] Plus, I was with my kid.
[00:14:17] It wasn't the time.
[00:14:18] You had met up.
[00:14:19] I was clearly meeting friends that you hadn't seen in a while.
[00:14:22] So, but nevertheless, that like piqued my interest was this kind of shift.
[00:14:26] Yes.
[00:14:27] So let's talk about your story.
[00:14:29] And maybe we can get to that shift later.
[00:14:32] But I don't know where you want to start.
[00:14:34] I can start with a shift right now.
[00:14:35] Like, it's perfectly easy to explain.
[00:14:38] Like, I was basically on Facebook, very active on Facebook, commenting every time I saw something
[00:14:46] wrong, commenting what I thought about everything, you know, and trying to just put information
[00:14:53] out there that people need to see.
[00:14:55] And I was mostly doing that whenever Trump became president because I was deeply affected
[00:15:04] and I saw all the people around me being deeply affected by it.
[00:15:09] So I was very active on Facebook, pushing for what I believe is right.
[00:15:15] And it took me, it took like a lot out of my days and it stressed me out quite a lot.
[00:15:22] Like, and I found myself kind of being like out of the present moment when I have to keep
[00:15:29] replying to comments for hours throughout the day.
[00:15:32] And it was really, really rough.
[00:15:34] And when I made my Instagram account, I literally decided, I was like, I just can't do this.
[00:15:39] Like, I'm just going to just be chill.
[00:15:42] And I like, if you saw my post, like, I would be like, oh, this is a great day here or great
[00:15:46] times with whoever.
[00:15:47] And I didn't, I, it was very minimal with every single post.
[00:15:51] Yeah, exactly.
[00:15:51] Yeah.
[00:15:52] Yeah.
[00:15:52] And then, and then like, I kind of started getting a voice and Instagram.
[00:15:59] And I just think that it's not right for me to not use it.
[00:16:05] And I feel like I have to say something at this point.
[00:16:08] And so I started being public on Instagram.
[00:16:32] You know, I want to talk about that shift.
[00:16:34] It's an important part of your story, but I think first we just talk about who you are
[00:16:39] as a climber.
[00:16:40] Yeah.
[00:16:40] Establish like what, yeah, what your life has been like getting into climbing, what,
[00:16:46] where you come from.
[00:16:47] I mean, you're Arizona Aaron on, on Instagram.
[00:16:50] So we, we got that part down.
[00:16:52] That's so funny.
[00:16:52] But just talk about your path because we've been chit chatting before the show and you've
[00:16:56] sort of dropped some hints about who you sort of were before climbing.
[00:17:00] And yeah.
[00:17:01] And I don't know anything about your upbringing.
[00:17:03] Oh my God.
[00:17:04] Yeah.
[00:17:04] It's a quite a crazy story for sure.
[00:17:07] Um, I grew up with my mom and my sister.
[00:17:12] Uh, my dad left when I was like a baby or at some point, but I never really noticed that
[00:17:18] or cared too much.
[00:17:19] Cause, um, my mom had worked extremely hard for us and make sure we had a really good childhood.
[00:17:26] Um, me and my sister, my full sister grew up together with my, with my mom.
[00:17:30] Um, it was really, really nice.
[00:17:33] She just wanted to make sure that we had a great childhood.
[00:17:36] She didn't ever want us to go to daycare.
[00:17:38] So decided that she's going to make her own businesses, which is really cool.
[00:17:42] And she like started off with making her own daycare business so that we can just be taken care
[00:17:49] of by her.
[00:17:49] And then later on, like she, um, continued to make her own businesses.
[00:17:54] Like she started realty.
[00:17:55] And then after that she did an automotive business and then she made a medical transportation
[00:18:01] business.
[00:18:02] And it was just really nice.
[00:18:04] She just wanted to provide for us and gave us a really good life.
[00:18:08] Did you ever have a stepdad?
[00:18:09] No.
[00:18:09] Okay.
[00:18:10] And this is in Phoenix.
[00:18:11] Yeah, it's in Phoenix.
[00:18:13] And in particular, uh, we're in a neighborhood called the slopes.
[00:18:18] It was a weird kind of neighborhood because on one side of the street, it's really nice houses.
[00:18:24] And then the other side of the street is the hood and like, it's complete ghetto, the hood
[00:18:29] over there.
[00:18:30] So whenever I went to high school or, well, I guess like maybe middle school, I'm seeing
[00:18:37] the huge differences when I would hang out with like white friends or if I would hang
[00:18:41] out with black friends, like, um, it would just be inequality that you can just easily
[00:18:47] see.
[00:18:47] And basically ended up getting into, uh, producing music really early on around like maybe eighth
[00:18:56] grade, which is funny.
[00:18:58] Like me and my buddy, like he just came over one day and he had like a little CD that was
[00:19:04] a program to, uh, you can like record on, on the computer.
[00:19:07] So we went into Radio Shack and like got like a $10 microphone and we started recording stuff,
[00:19:15] just playing around, you know, and I kind of like fell in love with him and, um, started
[00:19:23] making music.
[00:19:24] Um, and I, I turned that into like my career early on and did really well.
[00:19:31] And I ended up getting to produce for Cappadonna from Wu-Tang Clan.
[00:19:35] And we did a lot of stuff with Tech Nines record label, Strange Music with, uh, Stevie Stone
[00:19:41] and then with Futuristic and Twisted Insane.
[00:19:45] Twisted Insane is like one of the fastest rappers in the whole world.
[00:19:47] So I was like really successful with the music and I did, uh, I ended up going through college
[00:19:55] making music and, uh, ended up graduating for audio engineering.
[00:20:00] And I just felt like I was just never going to have to work a day in my life.
[00:20:03] Basically.
[00:20:04] I was like, this is perfect.
[00:20:06] I'm making music every day.
[00:20:07] And we were, um, having a really good time, but at the same time, um, it was really, really,
[00:20:14] really rough because I was surrounded by gang violence.
[00:20:18] A lot of my friends were ending up getting shot and killed, put in jail, prison.
[00:20:24] And one of my friends was murdered by the police and he was unarmed.
[00:20:30] And it's just a lot of really, really hard things going on around me.
[00:20:35] Wait, wait, wait.
[00:20:36] Let me ask you a question then.
[00:20:38] So you've got this mom, um, you know, single mom, she's working hard and to try to provide
[00:20:45] this like, you know, good upbringing.
[00:20:48] You know, you mentioned this sort of visible inequality that was in your life as far as,
[00:20:53] you know, across the street, like literally, but you know, it is across the street.
[00:20:57] Literally.
[00:20:57] And then, you know, a couple of questions before we, before we finish that, the music producing
[00:21:02] thing.
[00:21:02] Yes.
[00:21:03] First of all, did your mom ever like, did she talk to you about this?
[00:21:08] Um, was it something that you guys talked about as a family or, or was it just in your
[00:21:12] mind?
[00:21:12] Like wondering what was going on?
[00:21:14] Um, my mom, she didn't talk about anything that was ever bad actually, or like, like
[00:21:20] owing any bills.
[00:21:22] It didn't exist.
[00:21:23] Right.
[00:21:24] Like she just, she just wanted you guys to be free of those, those worries.
[00:21:28] All of those worries.
[00:21:28] Yeah.
[00:21:28] Like she just tried to make sure that we didn't have to think about any of that.
[00:21:32] She never brought it up.
[00:21:33] So she kind of like tried to shelter me from all of that.
[00:21:37] But then on the same vein, you're, you, you've entered this, you know, I'm sure she's like
[00:21:43] excited that you found this thing and you're being successful at it.
[00:21:45] But then she must've been like, uh, I don't know if it was disappointed or if it's like,
[00:21:51] why are you doing this with your life?
[00:21:53] If it's, you know, you're entering this world.
[00:21:55] I'm sure any mom would be like, no, can't you just get a normal job?
[00:22:00] Since, since he did everything that she did, she actually told me when I was growing
[00:22:04] up to not work for anybody.
[00:22:06] Okay.
[00:22:07] She said that you should just, um, like basically.
[00:22:12] Yeah.
[00:22:12] But what about being surrounded by the people you were being, you're, you were just talking
[00:22:16] about being surrounded by that.
[00:22:18] Did she, was that something that concerned her?
[00:22:19] Did she see it?
[00:22:20] Did she understand it?
[00:22:21] She can see it.
[00:22:24] Um, yeah.
[00:22:25] She just thought she can like stop me probably from hanging out with them.
[00:22:30] Right.
[00:22:31] Probably.
[00:22:31] Yeah.
[00:22:32] That was maybe what happened.
[00:22:33] All right.
[00:22:34] So anyway, back to this thing of finishing your music producing career.
[00:22:38] Yeah.
[00:22:38] So, uh, it was crazy times.
[00:22:42] We were having also like great times at the same time.
[00:22:44] We had a, a party crew that was called Moolah Fetish.
[00:22:48] What would happen a lot of times is there'd be people from different gangs at the party.
[00:22:53] And then if you're from the hood, you know, like this, this song, it's like, carib, carib.
[00:22:58] And then it goes, so woo, so woo.
[00:23:00] And it just chants that for the hook.
[00:23:01] And then you play that song at a party.
[00:23:04] And then literally everybody starts fighting.
[00:23:07] The party gets shot up.
[00:23:08] And it was just like a normal thing for parties to get shot up.
[00:23:10] And it was just like really, it wasn't like anything out of the normal.
[00:23:14] Like I would just, it would just be like a weekly deal.
[00:23:18] And, um, and it was just like a kind of a, uh, dangerous life.
[00:23:26] And, um, didn't think about ever leaving it.
[00:23:29] Like I just was still all in for the music and I was having a great time.
[00:23:33] And one day I walked into my house and my studio was stolen from my house.
[00:23:41] And it was like everything I ever worked for, everything I built up over my whole life,
[00:23:47] like all the way from like basically like seventh, eighth grade through college.
[00:23:51] Like I built this huge thing and it was all taken from me and gone within one moment.
[00:24:00] And it was really, really, really hard.
[00:24:04] Like I was completely devastated and depressed and broken in every way because it was my whole
[00:24:09] life.
[00:24:09] But I was like, it was what I did every single day is make music, you know, right around
[00:24:13] the same time as my mom had a stroke actually.
[00:24:16] And she ended up being paralyzed on her left side of her body.
[00:24:23] And at first, like she couldn't talk or sit up or eat or do anything.
[00:24:29] It was the hardest thing in the world for me because I love my mom more than anybody in
[00:24:34] the world.
[00:24:34] At that time, I basically decided I have to make a change and I cut off every single person
[00:24:43] that I ever knew and talked to in my past.
[00:24:46] And I started hiking.
[00:24:48] I just went up this mountain, Camelback Mountain.
[00:24:51] It's a mountain in Scottsdale, Arizona, like right in the middle of the city, that little
[00:24:56] city hike that everybody does.
[00:24:59] And I fell in love with it.
[00:25:02] And I was like able to start running, which is one thing is crazy is like this whole time
[00:25:10] I was living in this other life.
[00:25:11] Like I was actually a really big guy and I had gotten to almost 300 pounds and I was just
[00:25:21] severely unhealthy.
[00:25:22] Like my whole family was very unhealthy.
[00:25:25] Like my mom had suffered a stroke and my grandpa had diabetes and then they had to amputate
[00:25:30] his legs and then he died from it.
[00:25:34] And the same thing happened with several other people in my family dying early from heart attacks
[00:25:39] and strokes and diabetes.
[00:25:42] And I just really was broken and I just was like, I just didn't know what to do.
[00:25:49] I was, it was hard.
[00:25:51] So I literally went up Camelback Mountain every single day and then I was able to start doing
[00:25:58] it like multiple times a day and I started being able to run on the trail and I decided I wanted
[00:26:06] to be healthy and I turned vegan and I changed my diet 100% and I used to eat like fast food
[00:26:14] and bullshit like all the time.
[00:26:16] And then I like, after I was able to start running on the trails and then I started doing marathons
[00:26:21] and then I started doing like long distance backpacking and then I found canyoneering.
[00:26:28] And then one of my buddies like went climbing from somebody he met canyoneering and he took
[00:26:34] me out climbing the next day and basically climbing took over my whole entire life after
[00:26:40] that and started climbing every single day for at least five days a week outside for years.
[00:26:46] Get back to myself, meet the hell, no stressing about nothing, I cannot help get the wealth,
[00:26:51] I gamble so I'm shaking up the dice, pray to God I get that 725, come up you come down,
[00:26:56] that's what karma say, live for the holiday, try to get through life with no flaws, no exaggerate,
[00:27:01] I'll evaluate and then I might elaborate, show you how to bounce off the ropes like my
[00:27:05] papa said.
[00:27:07] Well let me go back a little bit.
[00:27:10] So tell me a little bit about life with your mom, you know, did she improve, you know,
[00:27:16] does she, where is she now like healthcare wise and how did your life look like?
[00:27:22] Because it's like, it can be devastating to everybody's life around that because now someone
[00:27:26] needs care, maybe there's not enough money, like what?
[00:27:29] Definitely.
[00:27:30] Yeah.
[00:27:30] So this all happened, I was living at one of the houses I grew up in, my mom was in the
[00:27:36] middle of buying this house and after she had the stroke, then she had to be hospitalized
[00:27:47] and I actually started taking care of her for six months straight.
[00:27:54] I went to rehab every single day to rehab her all as much as possible and that's where
[00:27:59] she got to, she got to now from, she's like from not being able to talk and now she can
[00:28:04] talk and she can eat food and like she can sit up and she can do like so much more but
[00:28:10] after six months after having a stroke, you can't really improve much after that.
[00:28:16] It's like you kind of stay where you are.
[00:28:18] So you try to do as much rehab as you can for those six months and I was, I was there
[00:28:23] every single day in the process of all of that.
[00:28:26] Six months we lost the house, lost everything else along with it.
[00:28:31] So I got an apartment and I moved my mom into the apartment and I started taking care of
[00:28:38] her.
[00:28:39] It's just really hard to give her the best care.
[00:28:42] So now at this point she's in a assisted living facility.
[00:28:47] Yeah.
[00:28:47] It's a really nice, really nice place.
[00:28:49] So, you know, you're, it was like kind of getting into the outdoors, the hiking and all that sort
[00:28:54] of stuff.
[00:28:54] Was that like a, like a, um, kind of a release for you or like, you know, you're, you've got
[00:29:01] this intense life going with your mom and, and, you know, getting out to do something like
[00:29:06] that seemed healthy for your mind, for your body, for your brain.
[00:29:10] I mean, was it connected to this, this, uh, the way you were living with taking care of
[00:29:15] her?
[00:29:16] It was like straight out of like desperation.
[00:29:18] Like I didn't, I had no idea what to do like with my day, you know, like where to go.
[00:29:25] And like, I knew there was this mountain camelback, like everybody talks about it all the time.
[00:29:29] I think I might've been up that as I was in Phoenix as a, as a little kid.
[00:29:33] It's the main mountain.
[00:29:34] Yeah.
[00:29:35] And it's like, yeah, right.
[00:29:36] And you're surrounded, right?
[00:29:37] Yeah, exactly.
[00:29:38] And it's like a short, pretty short hike.
[00:29:40] It's a mile up and a mile down.
[00:29:41] Yeah.
[00:29:41] Yeah.
[00:29:41] And I think I call that as like a, like literally probably like a 10 year old.
[00:29:45] Yeah.
[00:29:46] For sure.
[00:29:46] For sure.
[00:29:47] Yeah.
[00:29:48] So it's, it's funny.
[00:29:49] It's like, it is kind of steep.
[00:29:51] It's like a, it's like little bars to help you pull yourself up because of the steepness
[00:29:55] and it's like, like a thousand feet.
[00:29:57] I mean, I'm trying to imagine you with 300 pounds on your frame and it's impossible because
[00:30:01] like it's a podcast, you can't see him, but he's super fit, you know?
[00:30:05] Um, and yeah, so I mean, what it, like, how did you do that?
[00:30:10] Like, like how, you know, you're sitting there, like I need to be healthier, but you know, we
[00:30:16] talk about these sort of cultural divides and, and how people are brought up and, and part
[00:30:21] of like, I think that is also these ideas towards, it's not like intuitive what fitness
[00:30:28] means and what it's supposed to do to your life.
[00:30:30] And like, so how did you go get to a point where you look, or at least where you started
[00:30:36] losing weight actively and, and, you know, it was a scattershot.
[00:30:41] Did you actually like employ, you know, the gym and all the things or, um, it was kind
[00:30:47] of weird.
[00:30:47] Like, um, looking back, it's, it's just really sad that in the black community, um, the way
[00:30:57] that we perceive the food and like what's going on with the culture.
[00:31:03] And like, um, you'd be like, oh, you can, you know, that's a white person Kool-Aid or
[00:31:07] something.
[00:31:08] Cause it's like not sweet or something, you know, you know, like we, and you know, like
[00:31:12] we just put so much sugar, so much things on the food, but this all happened to like back
[00:31:18] whenever black people were slaves, they were given the scraps of whatever else was left
[00:31:23] to eat and they have, they had to heavily season the food to make it edible.
[00:31:27] So a lot of people don't realize that like a lot of the unhealthy ways that we eat right
[00:31:33] now is from the slavery days and directly from that.
[00:31:38] And I saw what was happening to my family and to my mom.
[00:31:44] And I really didn't want that to happen to me at all.
[00:31:47] Like, and it was just, yeah, but I mean, I'm, I'm just kind of wondering what you did.
[00:31:52] I, how it worked.
[00:31:53] I basically, I basically, whenever it was hiking, like it just got easier and easier to
[00:31:57] hike.
[00:31:57] And then I was like able to like run for the first time.
[00:32:01] Like I, if I tried to run a mile, like in PE before, like I would throw up every time,
[00:32:06] like, and it was really bad.
[00:32:07] And, and I was just slowly able to start running.
[00:32:11] And then, uh, at the same time, whenever I changed my diet, like basically everything just
[00:32:16] shredded, like when I turned vegan and running at the same time, I just shredded all the way.
[00:32:22] And then what's just crazy is like, while it's happening, I literally feel better and
[00:32:27] better and better.
[00:32:28] Like, cause you're, you're not only are your muscles and your like body changing, but your
[00:32:34] brain is literally physically healthier and it just feels better.
[00:32:39] And you start to notice the difference and you, it's like, um, you know, you can feel
[00:32:46] this much better and you know, you can be this much better.
[00:32:48] And like, why not just do it?
[00:32:50] You know?
[00:32:51] Yeah.
[00:32:52] I mean, I guess you have to get over the, that initial pain of, of like what it feels like
[00:32:58] at first, just like anything.
[00:32:59] Well, nothing, nothing could be as worse as like, as what happened.
[00:33:03] Like, like my mom having a stroke and then losing every single thing, like nothing's
[00:33:09] as bad.
[00:33:09] And it's like, sometimes I feel like it takes like something huge happening to make a change
[00:33:13] like that.
[00:33:13] Right.
[00:33:14] And then you can either, you can either spiral down and then just become, I literally wanted
[00:33:19] to kill myself, you know, like I wouldn't be around anymore.
[00:33:22] Like, or you can just go the other direction, you know?
[00:33:25] So I feel like everything I've ever done in life, I've just really, um, went fully after
[00:33:31] it.
[00:33:32] So this is just another thing.
[00:33:39] Yeah.
[00:33:53] So we're going to talk about your, uh, your activism and stuff around like black lives matter
[00:33:59] and, and, um, and just racism in general.
[00:34:01] But you know, there's this kind of thing where you, you said earlier, like, well, I cut off
[00:34:05] all these friends, um, which were in the black community and for better or worse that the part
[00:34:11] of the black community that you were involved in and it, it was dangerous and it was, it was
[00:34:15] unhealthy and things like that.
[00:34:16] It's not entirely like that, but you were in that segment.
[00:34:19] But that also must've felt like you, you know, crossed that street you talked about because
[00:34:24] you're getting into, I mean, we have been talking about this for years and climbing.
[00:34:29] It's like, it's white people doing white people stuff, you know, and you'll hear that
[00:34:33] from the black community.
[00:34:34] That's a white person.
[00:34:34] Every time, every time I try to get many of my friends, like, um, people of color from
[00:34:40] the past.
[00:34:41] Um, like some people are like still fine.
[00:34:44] You know, I'll talk to a couple of them from the past and they'll be, they will say exactly
[00:34:48] that it's white people.
[00:34:49] I'll say I will never do that.
[00:34:50] Right.
[00:34:50] And so, I mean, did that, how did you feel about that internally?
[00:34:54] Like, did you feel like you were kind of like turning your back on some part of, of, you
[00:34:59] know, your community or, or was it just a survival thing that this is what I have to do to move
[00:35:05] forward?
[00:35:05] Well, I've always been in really into science.
[00:35:08] I'm really into astrophysics actually.
[00:35:10] It's like my favorite thing besides climbing.
[00:35:12] And I feel like I think kind of objectively a lot of times and, um, try to think about fact-based
[00:35:20] thinking and, uh, kind of like a, kind of like a Vulcan from Star Trek or something,
[00:35:26] you know, it was like a logic, straight logic.
[00:35:30] So I, um, you got some nerd in your past.
[00:35:34] Oh yeah.
[00:35:36] For sure.
[00:35:37] So, so current maybe.
[00:35:39] Yeah, definitely.
[00:35:41] So I, um, definitely, I just feel like it was obviously not true that it's just white
[00:35:49] people shit, you know?
[00:35:50] Right.
[00:35:51] And I just didn't even hesitate or think twice about it.
[00:35:53] Mm-hmm.
[00:35:53] Whenever I was hiking, there's, um, there's a community on Camelback that hikes up the,
[00:36:01] up Camelback, like basically every morning before the sunrise.
[00:36:04] And they were really, really, really good people.
[00:36:07] And they were all different types of people as well.
[00:36:10] Cool.
[00:36:10] So it was really cool.
[00:36:11] And I, I like never experienced like, or for the longest time, just like genuinely like
[00:36:17] really nice and super good people.
[00:36:19] Cool.
[00:36:20] So I felt nice, like coming into the hiking community there just with the specific people
[00:36:25] like, um, in the morning, super early morning crew of Camelback before all the other people
[00:36:31] get there.
[00:36:32] For sure.
[00:36:33] Yeah.
[00:36:33] The dedicated.
[00:36:34] Yeah, exactly.
[00:36:35] For sure.
[00:36:36] That's cool.
[00:36:36] So the climbing thing then you, you just, uh, what kind of cut you off and, and backed up
[00:36:41] when you were talking about, uh, getting into climbing and, you know, aside from like what
[00:36:48] we're talking about with, with, um, the color of your skin, but you know, you grew up in
[00:36:53] a city, I grew up in the burbs.
[00:36:54] Like, it's kind of like this, almost like the surprise that this, this world exists.
[00:37:02] Yeah.
[00:37:02] And like, I, I was, you know, I don't know how old you are, but, um, you know, when
[00:37:06] I got into climbing, it was much more mysterious because it just, you didn't know anything about
[00:37:10] it other than a few books that you maybe read or whatever.
[00:37:13] So what was that like to kind of like go from that place you, you, you were, was a music
[00:37:19] producer to all of a sudden, like this is going on out here in this, in the world.
[00:37:24] Like what, what did that feel like?
[00:37:25] Yeah.
[00:37:26] I definitely didn't know anything about climbing was.
[00:37:28] And like most people, I think like, you know, I just have like a bunch of upper body strength,
[00:37:33] the grip strength, and you just like kind of pull yourself up there.
[00:37:36] But I learned that climbing is actually a technique.
[00:37:40] I was like, um, when I was younger, I was into like karate and then I got older and kind
[00:37:45] of got into Kung Fu.
[00:37:48] And I think it's like, um, climbing is like a form and it's like a movement, a technique.
[00:37:54] And when I realized that you can get up these walls, like that seem and look impossible with
[00:38:00] doing this movement, I was like, Whoa, like this is freaking cool.
[00:38:05] And I just really dove into the technique of climbing.
[00:38:08] I just thought that, uh, this is, this is like the coolest thing ever.
[00:38:14] Yeah.
[00:38:14] And I think like when I've sort of, you know, I've done this hundreds and maybe thousands
[00:38:18] of times, like tried to explain climbing to like my, you know, family members that don't
[00:38:23] know what it is.
[00:38:24] And, and you're caught up like explaining, you know, how it works and what you, what you
[00:38:30] climb with your, you know, and how you use your hands and feet or whatever.
[00:38:33] And you, all those things, but I'm always like in the back of my mind thinking like, this
[00:38:39] is the wrong thing to talk about, or this is, this isn't really what climbing is for
[00:38:43] us.
[00:38:45] It's, it's what goes with it.
[00:38:46] You know what I mean?
[00:38:47] And they're all fixated on like how it's scary or like how strong you have to be.
[00:38:51] And it's just like, and I, and what I'm trying to get at is like, there's this whole
[00:38:55] world behind it.
[00:38:56] And that's really what draws us in.
[00:38:59] And, um, so yeah, talk, talk a little bit about getting into that because you go climbing,
[00:39:02] right?
[00:39:03] You, you, you, someone top ropes you up something and you're like, this is really fun and it's
[00:39:06] cool.
[00:39:07] And, and then you slowly, like this veil is lifted and you're in, and there's this, you know,
[00:39:12] this community that travels around the country and like, you know, it's just like so much
[00:39:16] bigger and that's what climbing is.
[00:39:18] But you also can't really explain that to people who don't climb because they're like,
[00:39:22] well, what do you mean?
[00:39:23] Oh, you have a job.
[00:39:23] And like, you know, you go all down those rabbit holes.
[00:39:26] Right.
[00:39:26] Um, so talk a little bit about becoming that person.
[00:39:29] So yeah.
[00:39:29] And I think it's an interesting story because based on where you've come from.
[00:39:34] For sure.
[00:39:35] Right.
[00:39:35] Um, it was really cool coming into the community because, um, shortly, like right when I'm starting,
[00:39:42] um, I was super fortunate to be mentored by some of the developers.
[00:39:49] First, uh, Michael Genovese and then, uh, Scott Dimmler, like Scott Dimmler messaged
[00:39:55] me on Facebook one day and asked me to go climbing.
[00:39:59] And I was, I told my ex-girlfriend at the time, I was like, I was so stoked.
[00:40:03] I was like, what?
[00:40:04] I was like, this guy is like the one that developed all these routes that we've been
[00:40:07] climbing all the time.
[00:40:08] And he asked me to climb.
[00:40:09] And like, I, I literally was blown away and like, so happy.
[00:40:13] And like, it was really nice that the community kind of just was like wanting to like teach
[00:40:20] and, um, and just mentor me like that.
[00:40:24] And it was just really sweet.
[00:40:25] And, um, over the time, like I got so lucky, like with some of the biggest names in climbing
[00:40:31] that ended up mentoring me.
[00:40:33] Like, and I felt like I kind of got like catapulted into the climbing world because it was just
[00:40:38] so nice.
[00:40:39] Like, like everybody was there for me and they showed so much love and caring for me.
[00:40:45] So it really made me fall in love with the community for sure.
[00:40:49] Right.
[00:40:50] And then what years were this, what, what, what were we talking about?
[00:40:53] When, when was this happening?
[00:40:55] Dude, I don't know.
[00:40:55] More or less.
[00:40:56] Um, uh, it was probably.
[00:40:57] 10 years ago, 15 years ago.
[00:40:58] I, I've only actually been climbing for like about five years now.
[00:41:01] Okay.
[00:41:02] Right.
[00:41:02] So it's all happened really fast.
[00:41:04] You know, you're outside climbing and you end up running into the climbing community if
[00:41:09] you're out there all the time.
[00:41:10] And I was out there every day.
[00:41:11] So I ended up running into my buddies, my great buddies now, uh, Scott McDaniel and Sam
[00:41:16] Foreman.
[00:41:18] And shout out to the donkeys.
[00:41:20] We're, we're the donkeys.
[00:41:21] He's, it's, it's a funny thing, but the Arizona crew is called the donkeys.
[00:41:26] And it was like originally like the swamp donkeys.
[00:41:28] And it's just a funny thing.
[00:41:30] And now that's the huge crew.
[00:41:32] My buddy Sam ended up, uh, started dating Mary Eden.
[00:41:37] You guys probably know her.
[00:41:38] Yeah.
[00:41:39] She's been on the show and we've, we've sort of remained friends ever since.
[00:41:43] Totally.
[00:41:43] Yeah.
[00:41:43] And she ended up teaching me like so much.
[00:41:47] She mentored me as well and helped me, uh, learn so much about crack climbing.
[00:41:52] And, um, I really fell in love with trad and that's like my main style now.
[00:41:56] I love crack climbing.
[00:41:58] And then, um, we ended up going to Moab and doing a commercial for the access fund and for
[00:42:04] Omaze.
[00:42:05] And we met up with Devin Finn and Devin is great.
[00:42:10] He's developed like more routes in Indian Creek than anybody else in history, like over 500
[00:42:14] routes in Indian Creek.
[00:42:15] Me and Devin hit it off right away.
[00:42:19] And, uh, he became like one of my main partners out there.
[00:42:23] And, um, it was just really, really nice to have him.
[00:42:28] And then like over the time, then I, and then like, um, Tom Randall helped me out a lot.
[00:42:34] And then Pamela Pack ended up helping me out a lot.
[00:42:37] And I was just blown away that I was able to have all these people that are so big in industry,
[00:42:43] like so close to me and helped me so much.
[00:42:46] And so it's really grateful for, for that and really have all the love for the climbing
[00:42:52] community for all of that.
[00:42:53] Right.
[00:42:54] So, I mean, this is like a, like feels like it was a kind of real whirlwind, right?
[00:43:00] Yeah.
[00:43:01] That this is all happening in, and it was probably occupying your sort of mental space of just
[00:43:06] like being a climber and getting into this and, you know, I'm still having your mom,
[00:43:11] you know, with her issues and everything else.
[00:43:14] And one of the reasons we're here is because, because of sort of your presence online and
[00:43:19] your activism around race.
[00:43:21] Was that sort of a backseat a little bit while you were getting into this?
[00:43:25] Did it reemerge?
[00:43:27] You know, again, I'm sort of kind of seeing this arc, like deep, you know, in this music
[00:43:32] community, you leave it behind and then it sort of kind of maybe comes back around,
[00:43:39] um, as you're in climbing and, and, and you're coming up and climbing as this, these issues
[00:43:44] are coming to the fore and climbing the inclusion issue, the representation for people of color
[00:43:50] is like this thing we've really only been talking about for a few years in climbing.
[00:43:54] So when did it sort of start to bubble back into your brain of like, there's this other thing that
[00:44:01] I need to start talking about or did it, or am I making that up?
[00:44:05] Was it always there?
[00:44:06] Yeah.
[00:44:07] I basically always, um, have been active in it.
[00:44:11] It's like, cause I was really active in it on Facebook for years before I started saying anything
[00:44:17] on Instagram.
[00:44:18] I wasn't really pushing for any change in the climbing community, but just in like real
[00:44:26] life, whatever else is going on, you know, but now I feel like with the voice in the climbing
[00:44:32] community that I'm gaining that I can just spread the message to all of them.
[00:44:37] So it's kind of like just moved on to talking to kind of different people, I guess about it.
[00:44:44] Yeah.
[00:44:44] I mean, and there's like this, uh, I mean, it's just a tricky thing to do.
[00:44:48] You want to be a climber.
[00:44:49] You want to just kind of, I mean, that's part of climbing appeal.
[00:44:54] And especially from like, I think my era pre, uh, social media and things like that, you,
[00:45:00] you almost were like, I'm out here because I don't want to fucking talk about any of that
[00:45:04] stuff.
[00:45:05] We were willfully without like political connection.
[00:45:09] And that all was just like somewhere else.
[00:45:12] I mean, I remember actually literally I was in New Zealand climbing and I, I saw a paper
[00:45:19] that said that, you know, the, the first Gulf war had started and like, that was all like
[00:45:25] literally kind of the first I had heard that that was even possibly going to happen.
[00:45:28] The one, you know, the, the Kuwait one that didn't last very long, but either way, I was
[00:45:34] just like, huh, look at that.
[00:45:35] We're at war.
[00:45:36] Like my country's at war.
[00:45:38] Like I didn't know it was coming and here it is on this newspaper.
[00:45:40] And you know what I did?
[00:45:41] I like, brush it off.
[00:45:43] I was actually literally in a fish and chip shop and I like, okay, well great.
[00:45:46] And I got my fish and chip.
[00:45:48] I'd like to say it was on my fish and chips wrapping.
[00:45:50] Cause they use newspaper, but the story's not quite that good.
[00:45:53] But, um, yeah.
[00:45:54] So I, you know, that was, I think a really popular kind of attitude of like, we're out
[00:45:59] here and we don't, you know, it's like, you can ask a climber like back then, like, or
[00:46:04] say something about Michael Jordan.
[00:46:06] Somebody be like, who?
[00:46:08] Right.
[00:46:08] You know, or whatever, like just remote removed.
[00:46:10] And that was part of why we were doing it.
[00:46:12] But that's changed a lot.
[00:46:13] Yes.
[00:46:14] Um, but I think, I think you probably even, I mean, I'm sure there's days when you're
[00:46:19] battling, you know, comments or whatever, where you're like, well, I should just fucking
[00:46:25] go climbing and not worry about this shit.
[00:46:27] So where's your feelings on that?
[00:46:29] Because you put yourself out there in a very strong way online and it invites, it invites
[00:46:34] attacks.
[00:46:35] Oh yeah, for sure.
[00:46:36] And I feel so strongly about people in the future, not having to deal with the racism
[00:46:43] that if there's a comment that's defending being racist in any way, or like going against
[00:46:51] me trying to end racism, it will like Trump anything else that I'm trying to do.
[00:46:57] And I will literally not focus on anything else, but making this like, so that when people
[00:47:04] look at the comment section that they see that there's a, an answer to these weird questions
[00:47:10] that people be asking, Oh, what about black on black crime or something?
[00:47:13] And then they say all these things and I can't let that, I can't let that sit there on my comment
[00:47:19] section and just, um, have people be like, Oh yeah, he has a point.
[00:47:22] Right.
[00:47:23] I'm going to fricking.
[00:47:24] But isn't that a full-time job?
[00:47:26] It's a full-time job for sure.
[00:47:28] Like a really unhealthy one.
[00:47:30] Yeah.
[00:47:30] You know?
[00:47:31] But so I don't know what else to do to try to end or slow down or stop this racism so
[00:47:39] that people in the future don't have to deal with it.
[00:47:41] And after thinking about it is so much and like wanting to, this to change so much, like
[00:47:48] my thought is that if, when people saw something that is clearly wrong, if everybody said something,
[00:47:55] it would be harder for them to be openly racist.
[00:47:58] Like it was, it was hard for people to be openly racist because people would call it out
[00:48:02] or whatever.
[00:48:02] But now like Trump become president and then like people are openly racist and they're
[00:48:07] openly committing hate crimes against people and it's a measurable result.
[00:48:12] And all the hate crimes that increased from whenever Trump was president can't let that
[00:48:17] go.
[00:48:17] So let me ask you this though.
[00:48:19] You're, you're traveling around the country as a climber.
[00:48:21] Um, you've done, I think you said last year you did a big, long road trip.
[00:48:24] You're on a extended road trip right now.
[00:48:27] Classic.
[00:48:28] Like it's what you do as a climber.
[00:48:29] If you can, if you can make the ends meet, um, and everything's taken care of, um, with
[00:48:34] your mom and all that sort of thing.
[00:48:36] And so you have this online presence and the reason I think it's notable is that you're
[00:48:40] very, you're very blunt.
[00:48:42] You're very upfront.
[00:48:42] You're very in your face.
[00:48:45] You don't pull any punches.
[00:48:46] And, and one thing I was like, uh, you know, I, I interviewed, um, Malik Martin and that's
[00:48:52] one thing I actually really liked about that interview too, is he didn't like pussyfoot
[00:48:56] around the issue.
[00:48:57] It's so serious.
[00:48:58] And people, people, people are acting like they have to be sensitive to people's feelings.
[00:49:03] Like whenever their feelings are, I support the police murdering you.
[00:49:08] I'm not going to be sensitive to that at all.
[00:49:10] But my question, I guess, is that you've got this online thing, but then does that follow
[00:49:14] you around?
[00:49:15] Do people want to confront you in person?
[00:49:18] Do they want to, or do they feel like, okay, this is the guy and I can go ahead and talk
[00:49:23] to him about these things.
[00:49:24] Is that part of, part of your experience or not?
[00:49:27] Well, I was doing that for years on Facebook and it was not my experience at all because
[00:49:32] it was just random people, you know?
[00:49:35] And, um, I just barely started doing it on Instagram because I felt like I had to start
[00:49:41] doing that even though I really didn't want to bring it into this world.
[00:49:46] So that's kind of new.
[00:49:47] Yeah.
[00:49:48] So it's kind of new and I've had a couple of people want to talk to me about it.
[00:49:53] And I think it's better than like talking about like Netflix or some bullshit that doesn't
[00:49:59] really matter, you know?
[00:49:59] And it's like, and I'll gladly talk about it, but it doesn't seem to like take up my
[00:50:06] days or anything or my time when I, in real life.
[00:50:09] Yeah.
[00:50:09] So you had like a pretty straightforward Instagram presence.
[00:50:12] I'd followed it for a while.
[00:50:13] Just, you know, you just, the way you follow climbers and I, you know, follow Tom Randall
[00:50:18] and then you look at who's following Tom Randall, blah, blah, blah.
[00:50:21] And you, you know, you, it's your own algorithm, so to speak that you you've created.
[00:50:25] And then, you know, part of talking to you right now is like this distinct shift.
[00:50:30] Um, that was not that long ago, as you just said, where you had your content, you had
[00:50:35] your, um, you know, Hey, I'm having a great time at this place.
[00:50:38] Look at this cool picture.
[00:50:39] Yeah.
[00:50:39] It was pretty typical.
[00:50:40] Yeah.
[00:50:41] Pretty typical climbing stuff like great day with friends, blah, blah, blah.
[00:50:44] Yeah.
[00:50:44] And then all of a sudden there were these extended posts, forceful, little bit rant-ish, like
[00:50:50] Yeah.
[00:50:50] They're long, long.
[00:50:51] I've, I've used every character that I can use in each of those posts.
[00:50:55] So what was the shift there?
[00:50:56] Um, did you feel like it was time that like maybe you were kind of hiding out on, uh, in
[00:51:01] a way, or what was the shift that made you decide to do that not too long ago?
[00:51:04] I saw that my Instagram is like reaching like a hundred thousand people a month.
[00:51:11] So I was like, I have to say something.
[00:51:16] Well, I mean, in, in, in probably like the current politics, so just kind of ramped you up.
[00:51:22] That happened.
[00:51:22] And then, uh, definitely there's an election coming up and I just don't want to see my,
[00:51:29] uh, like all my people and like people of color or like, um, the LGBTQ plus community
[00:51:36] or like Muslims, like anybody, I don't want to see them suffer anymore.
[00:51:40] And I really want to make sure that Trump doesn't win the presidency for that basically.
[00:51:49] Yeah.
[00:51:50] I've talked to a few climbers of color, like said Malik and, um, some folks from, from
[00:51:55] Memphis rocks and stuff like that.
[00:51:57] And they have these interesting experiences to talk about traveling around the country.
[00:52:00] Um, once they kind of leave the comfort zone of, of where they live.
[00:52:06] And some of it's kind of oblique, like, you know, it's not someone screaming at them or,
[00:52:13] you know, but it's just, you know, there's this, you know, the pin drop kind of thing
[00:52:17] when you go in like, uh, into a restaurant somewhere or getting looked at at a gas station,
[00:52:22] like obviously like very strangely, but you've actually experienced like direct violence.
[00:52:27] Yes.
[00:52:28] Yeah, for sure.
[00:52:29] And that, but that wasn't in a climbing context.
[00:52:31] No, this is, this is experience this.
[00:52:33] I was, I was, um, uh, driving down the street.
[00:52:37] These guys that have like all these Trump flags on their car or their truck drive past and
[00:52:43] they throw all their trash into and at my car and say, fuck you nigger.
[00:52:49] And they speed off.
[00:52:50] I was completely enraged and I went to turn around and I was going to like get them in any
[00:52:59] way that I possibly could.
[00:53:01] And, uh, I turned around and like spun my car around really fast and I slammed on the
[00:53:05] gas and it broke my line connecting from my pedal to my engine and cut off my car completely.
[00:53:13] Oh, like your accelerated cable.
[00:53:15] That cable.
[00:53:16] Yeah.
[00:53:16] Yeah.
[00:53:17] Cause I stepped on the gas pedal so hard.
[00:53:19] Wow.
[00:53:20] But that's like only part of it.
[00:53:22] It's like, there's like the whole black lives matter movement going on and it was just
[00:53:28] completely unacceptable to me that they had a counter protest starting the blue lives matter
[00:53:34] protests, like counter protesting us just saying black people matter.
[00:53:40] Like black people don't deserve to be killed and we deserve to live.
[00:53:43] And then you're going to like support the police more and say actually people, people murdering
[00:53:48] you matter.
[00:53:49] Like, and then in Arizona, they ended up making it into a license plate, then blue line license
[00:53:54] plate.
[00:53:54] And then they down the neighborhood that I lived in, like in the hood, they flew blue lives
[00:54:00] matter flags down the whole street on the light poles.
[00:54:03] And it's like the state is literally like racist against me.
[00:54:08] Like, uh, like I'm driving down the street and I feel like I see blue lives matter.
[00:54:14] I feel like I'm seeing like a whites only sign or something like that or something equivalent
[00:54:18] or something like, like basically like wearing a KKK outfit to me.
[00:54:22] Like that's how I see it.
[00:54:25] And then I called the state and asked them why these flags are flying down the public
[00:54:30] road.
[00:54:31] And they said, uh, you're not allowed to actually, uh, put any political sign on any public property.
[00:54:38] Piece of property.
[00:54:40] So I was like, okay, fix it.
[00:54:42] So then they're like, okay, we'll get back to you.
[00:54:45] And then it was like months passed and I'm like pissed off every single time I drive home
[00:54:49] from work or something or like drive home.
[00:54:51] I'm like, this is so wrong.
[00:54:54] Like, so I actually went up with my rope, took down all the flags and, um, somebody recorded
[00:55:03] me.
[00:55:04] I didn't know, but somebody followed me and recorded me doing the whole entire thing.
[00:55:08] And, um, a couple of weeks later there was like six cops that showed up at my front door
[00:55:14] and they said, I'm under arrest for theft and, um, vandalization of public property, all
[00:55:22] this, whatever, these different charges.
[00:55:24] And I said, fuck you guys.
[00:55:26] Like that you're in those flags were not allowed to be flown anyway.
[00:55:30] And it's completely wrong or whatever.
[00:55:32] They said, if you don't, uh, come out side and, uh, sign this paper and go to court, then
[00:55:38] we're going to tow your car outside for evidence.
[00:55:41] So I was like, fine.
[00:55:42] And so I fricking signed the paper.
[00:55:45] I had to go to court for it and I had like a public defender and then the public defender
[00:55:50] is like, so you're on video doing this and you should plead guilty and you're going to
[00:55:57] have to pay all these fines for that.
[00:56:00] And then they wanted me to go to some class or whatever that costs money as well.
[00:56:03] And I'm like, I literally don't have any money and I didn't do anything wrong and I'm definitely
[00:56:09] not guilty.
[00:56:11] So my public defender got all mad at me and we were like screaming at each other in the
[00:56:16] outside of the court office.
[00:56:18] And I just told him like, fuck you basically.
[00:56:20] And I just handled the whole case myself and a notion for extension of the court or whatever.
[00:56:29] And then this went on for months and months and I fought the case by myself.
[00:56:33] And at the very end of it, they dropped all the charges because they knew like damn well
[00:56:36] they're wrong.
[00:56:38] You just came from 10 sleep.
[00:56:39] Yes.
[00:56:40] And that was, I mean, I've been there and it's like one of my favorite places to comment
[00:56:44] on it because I, I too, like a couple of years ago, uh, were there and I, you know, it was
[00:56:50] just remarkable how much political stuff was there and you know, not just Trump stuff, but
[00:56:56] fuck Biden, you know, all over the main street.
[00:57:00] Yeah.
[00:57:00] Yeah.
[00:57:00] It's actually, I was just there.
[00:57:02] You were just there.
[00:57:03] It's toned down compared to what I thought two years ago.
[00:57:06] I believe it.
[00:57:06] Um, I mean the fuck Biden stuff is flying that off your house as, you know, supposedly the
[00:57:12] family values, uh, you know, party or whatever's it's an interesting dichotomy, but I got pushed
[00:57:18] back when I said it that like, well, this is all just code, you know?
[00:57:22] And I, and I, I did comment about how if a person of color was there, that it's not directly
[00:57:28] like the N word or go home or whatever, but it's like this code for sure that, that is
[00:57:34] like built into it.
[00:57:36] And people just want to push back and be like, no, no, it's just politics.
[00:57:39] No, you need to, you need to talk to the other side and like, see what their views
[00:57:43] on.
[00:57:43] I'm like, so I need to talk to the guy that has the fuck Biden flag.
[00:57:47] Like, I don't, that's not, that's not a place to start a conversation by any means,
[00:57:51] you know?
[00:57:52] Yeah, for sure.
[00:57:53] Yeah.
[00:57:53] So, I mean, if you have a comment on that thing in terms of like arriving at a place
[00:57:58] as you've traveled around the country with your background, with your, the color of
[00:58:02] your skin.
[00:58:03] Yeah.
[00:58:03] So, so it's, it's hard because it's obviously a huge problem how divided the country is.
[00:58:10] And every person I've talked to is like, oh, you need to hear the other person's side,
[00:58:15] you know?
[00:58:15] And that is the case most of the time, but there's things where the other side does not
[00:58:20] have a point.
[00:58:20] Like just, just go back in time where Hitler took over and like, you're like going to act
[00:58:26] like Hitler has a point.
[00:58:27] Hitler has a side, you know?
[00:58:28] It's like the same thing's happening now.
[00:58:30] Like we have black people being murdered by the police and then zero people facing any
[00:58:36] consequences for it.
[00:58:38] We should be treated as if, as, as if we matter and we shouldn't just be murdered.
[00:58:42] And like, we should at least like whoever murdered them should go to jail.
[00:58:46] And since we're saying black people matter and then people all of a sudden can't say that
[00:58:51] and they say, oh, the people murdering you, they actually matter.
[00:58:54] Blue lives matter.
[00:58:56] And they counter protests to us saying that we matter and that we want to be treated equally.
[00:59:01] And they, they support the people murdering us more.
[00:59:03] I hope, I don't have any tolerance for it.
[00:59:06] And I think it's just completely wrong basically that you can support the people murdering innocent
[00:59:11] people and then act like you have a point.
[00:59:41] So, um, let's switch it over to the climbing community.
[00:59:44] Uh, again, we, we've talked about this whole movement of the last few years and you can,
[00:59:50] you can roll your eyes at it.
[00:59:52] Um, you can say it's dumb, you can say it's cool and you can say it's not working.
[00:59:57] I mean, whatever you want to say about it, but there's definitely a consciousness around
[01:00:02] inclusion and around representation communities like the LGBTQ plus community, the BIPOC community,
[01:00:11] like it's in the ether.
[01:00:12] And I think it's getting kind of more and more to the point where it's just like accepted
[01:00:18] knowledge that this needs to happen and is, is sort of happening.
[01:00:22] But what are your feelings on that?
[01:00:23] You know, what is your comment on the climbing community?
[01:00:26] I think when I've talked to again, other, other folks like yourself, there's, you know,
[01:00:31] these incidences or whatever usually are, are kind of around climbing, but not necessarily
[01:00:37] directly in climbing.
[01:00:38] But what's your feelings on that community and what's going on with that?
[01:00:42] And if it's effective, um, I think that it's effective, but I feel like it's so barely
[01:00:50] in the beginning stages and everybody needs to do so much more.
[01:00:54] Like I shouldn't know every black person in the climbing community.
[01:01:00] That's crazy.
[01:01:02] It's like, imagine me saying like, Oh, I know every white person in the climbing community.
[01:01:07] That would be obviously impossible.
[01:01:09] But how come I know every black person in the climbing community?
[01:01:11] That's crazy.
[01:01:12] It's like, obviously that shows there in itself that this is not right.
[01:01:17] Like, um, like I was climbing and then this guy came up to me.
[01:01:22] He's like, you must be Aaron.
[01:01:24] And I was like, yeah.
[01:01:25] And he's like, he's like, I'm, I'm from Idaho or whatever.
[01:01:29] And he said, my friend told me if I saw a black person climbing with dreads and then
[01:01:34] then it's Aaron, you know?
[01:01:36] And I'm like, why, why is it that?
[01:01:38] And I was like, why are you right?
[01:01:39] Like, why, why?
[01:01:40] Well, I mean, we started this with talking about how I saw you and I was like, black guy
[01:01:44] with dreads.
[01:01:45] Like that's, you know, the Arizona plate, I feel like was like the clincher, but you're
[01:01:51] right.
[01:01:51] You're absolutely right.
[01:01:52] And I, you know, but I, I know, um, I know another black climber with dreads.
[01:01:57] Yeah.
[01:01:57] And then every, everybody, everybody, everybody, every time I go anywhere, people would mistake
[01:02:01] me for Eddie all the time.
[01:02:02] Oh, for Eddie.
[01:02:03] Yeah.
[01:02:03] I've never met Eddie.
[01:02:04] And they're like, you climbed Moonlight Buttress?
[01:02:05] I'm like, no.
[01:02:06] I did not.
[01:02:07] Oh my God.
[01:02:08] That's, you guys must kind of joke about that though, right?
[01:02:10] It's crazy.
[01:02:11] Yeah.
[01:02:11] Between the, between you.
[01:02:13] Uh, I've only got to, I've only got to see Eddie like one time.
[01:02:15] Okay.
[01:02:16] I've never met him.
[01:02:17] But yeah.
[01:02:17] I follow his still.
[01:02:18] And I interviewed Manoa, who's the other guy I know with dreads, right?
[01:02:21] Yeah.
[01:02:22] There's only three of us.
[01:02:23] No, there's not.
[01:02:24] There's no one.
[01:02:24] There's gotta be.
[01:02:26] If you're, if you're a black climber with dreads, send, send us an email because we want,
[01:02:31] we want to meet you too.
[01:02:32] But the, I mean, you know, but I mean that, that has, there has to be some gallows humor
[01:02:36] around it a little bit at times, right?
[01:02:38] It's, it's, it's, it's funny, but it shows, it shows like the complete inequality and like
[01:02:44] that, how there's no, like, it's hard to access into the sport.
[01:02:48] It's so expensive.
[01:02:49] Like me having like a trad rack, like that's like completely, I have like.
[01:02:54] All these cams are like, that's completely untamable for anybody that I know from my past, you
[01:02:59] know?
[01:02:59] Like, so yeah, it's, it's definitely, there's needs to be something to be done to make it
[01:03:06] all equal, you know?
[01:03:08] Well, I mean, you know, I think the argument or, and it's, I think it's somewhat valid
[01:03:13] is that it's going to take time and that it's also, you know, you can't force people to fucking
[01:03:18] love climbing.
[01:03:19] Um, you know, and so providing access is really the thing.
[01:03:22] And if, if someone goes climbing in there or they, you know, rock up to, you know, like
[01:03:27] Memphis rocks, they were on the, on the show this year and they don't like it.
[01:03:31] It's like, yeah, no, no, you have to go climbing.
[01:03:33] We need you.
[01:03:34] Right.
[01:03:35] Kind of a thing.
[01:03:36] Oh my God.
[01:03:37] Um, you know, but I mean, just the fact that we're going to talk about this today, I, you
[01:03:41] know, this, this idea, like it just didn't occur to me when I was a climbing bum in my
[01:03:47] twenties because I, I was so self-centered for one thing, but this idea that like the
[01:03:53] community wasn't diverse, it never occurred to me.
[01:03:55] And I think it literally occurs to everyone now and that's sort of progress, right?
[01:04:01] Yeah, that, that definitely is.
[01:04:02] That definitely is.
[01:04:03] And the problem is like, everything is so obvious and there is a way to, to make it
[01:04:11] equal, but it doesn't happen because of money and stuff like that.
[01:04:16] Like that's a silly reason to not be equal, you know, like, especially when there's unlimited
[01:04:22] resources for all of us to thrive basically.
[01:04:26] Well, so let me, let me ask you that though.
[01:04:29] Like when you say there's a way for it to be equal, A, what does that look, look like?
[01:04:33] Like what does climbing equal look like?
[01:04:34] It's, it's.
[01:04:35] And then what, what, what's the way?
[01:04:37] It is like basically just making sure that, um, we like get rid of all the systemic barriers,
[01:04:45] like, um, poverty and limited access to quality education and good jobs and affordable housing.
[01:04:51] Just making sure that if, if we did all of that.
[01:04:55] I guess I was more getting at climbing.
[01:04:57] I mean, cause that's.
[01:04:59] But if you don't have any of that, you can't get into the climbing itself because you're
[01:05:03] put down into such a place where you have to do whatever you can to get by and you can't
[01:05:08] start to go climbing.
[01:05:10] It starts with all of that first and then you'll see the change in the, all the other communities,
[01:05:15] not only climbing like skiing or something like that, you know?
[01:05:18] All right.
[01:05:18] Well, let's, let's talk about like direct activism.
[01:05:21] Um, you know, you had your moment pulling those flags down.
[01:05:24] Um, you were, you've been working in, in Queen Creek, um, to try to increase awareness around,
[01:05:30] around the, the copper mining there and the destruction of that, um, indigenous land and
[01:05:36] those things like, you know, what else?
[01:05:39] Um, I also, um, protest as much as I can, but not just to an organized protest.
[01:05:46] But if I see, um, uh, there's these people, uh, protesting outside of the Planned Parenthood
[01:05:52] in my neighborhood and anytime I ever saw them, I pull over and counter protest them.
[01:05:59] And I, uh, they try to block the people from coming in and pulling in.
[01:06:03] And I literally pushed them out of the way and moved them out of the way.
[01:06:06] And I waved through the cars and make sure they can get in to the Planned Parenthood.
[01:06:10] And, um, I like, uh, show up to Trump rallies and I talked to every single person there.
[01:06:18] And, and I, when I first started, started doing that at the Trump rallies, like I would
[01:06:24] get infuriated really fast because they would tell me people, things like George Floyd killed
[01:06:28] himself.
[01:06:29] They would tell me bullshit like that.
[01:06:31] And I would start like getting in screaming matches with these people.
[01:06:34] But at this point I go to the rallies and I try to tell them straight facts and then
[01:06:40] make them think.
[01:06:42] I know that I'm actually not going to change anybody's mind, but I still feel like if everybody
[01:06:48] around them, all the, the people that they see, you're walking down the street with your
[01:06:53] Trump shit on.
[01:06:55] And if people were like thumbs down or just said, Hey, like, why do you feel that way?
[01:06:59] What about these people that are being disproportionately like affected by that?
[01:07:03] And then if they were confronted over and over and over, it'd be harder for them to be openly
[01:07:09] racist and openly vote for the type of policies that like destroy our only planet to live on
[01:07:15] and stuff like that.
[01:07:16] Yeah.
[01:07:17] Cause there's an environmental element to what you talk about.
[01:07:20] I'm like, if you don't care about us being murdered, then you can maybe care about the
[01:07:24] only planet that we have to live on.
[01:07:26] And if factually it's being destroyed by the policies that Trump is putting into place,
[01:07:33] uh, factually rolling back 97 environmental protection acts and trying to roll back over
[01:07:37] a hundred more, if he gets elected again, that's only the beginning.
[01:07:40] He wants to deregulate the oil industry.
[01:07:43] It's just absolutely silly to vote against your only planet and we have to protect it.
[01:07:50] It's like your only place to live.
[01:07:53] I don't understand.
[01:07:54] The problem is that they don't believe in science is a problem.
[01:07:59] And I guess at the end of the day, if I can ask for anything, it would just, I don't even
[01:08:03] care about politicians or who I don't, I can give a fuck about Trump or whatever he did.
[01:08:10] I'm like, I don't want to talk to him.
[01:08:11] I want to talk to the electorate and make sure that they, they, um, can't be duped and like
[01:08:18] have the wool pulled over their eyes because they don't have scientific literacy.
[01:08:21] You know, if they did, then it would be really hard to trick the public if they did.
[01:08:26] But since they don't, it's very easy to trick them.
[01:08:30] Trump will say some shit that rhymes and they literally believe it.
[01:08:33] It's like, it rhymes.
[01:08:35] I'm like, that's not how reality works.
[01:08:38] And people are living in their own reality.
[01:08:41] And I think that it's wrong that people are, um, making these decisions based off of their,
[01:08:49] their political personal truths or their cultural personal truths, their religious personal truths.
[01:08:56] Every single thing that we live by should be based off of objective truth because objective
[01:09:02] truth is the only thing that every single person lives by.
[01:09:06] And if we make any decision based off of anything else, you're making a decision for everybody
[01:09:12] on your personal belief.
[01:09:14] And that is not the country that can thrive.
[01:09:18] So, you know, where's your mental health around like these, uh, you know, the online kind of
[01:09:24] discourse that can get, get gnarly.
[01:09:27] Are you spending tons of time working on, you know, these comments and things like that?
[01:09:32] Are you, are you taking care of yourself as far as that's concerned?
[01:09:36] Going back to like, just becoming healthy now, like I, uh, take the best care of myself ever.
[01:09:43] Like, um, every single day, I'm not here to make money and be a cog in the wheel and part
[01:09:49] of the system.
[01:09:50] I am here to better myself and be as best as I possibly can mentally and physically.
[01:09:57] And I want to reach my true potential.
[01:09:59] Like that's what I want.
[01:10:01] That's what I want to do with my one chance at life, you know?
[01:10:04] So it mentally, um, takes some out of me, but, um, I, at the same time, I'm, um, having
[01:10:14] these conversations with people, like I'm learning where their thinking's come from and I'm like
[01:10:18] learning answers to their questions.
[01:10:22] And I feel like I'm helping, uh, people in the future, hopefully.
[01:10:29] And if, if I sacrifice a tiny bit of my mental or not a tiny bit, like however much I, it is,
[01:10:35] like, I feel like it's worth it.
[01:10:36] It's just worth it to, to try to do whatever I can.
[01:10:40] Sometimes it is hard mentally.
[01:10:42] Yeah.
[01:10:42] Yeah.
[01:10:42] What do you, uh, what does your life look like when you're not on the road climbing?
[01:10:47] Not climbing.
[01:10:48] Um, uh, so, okay.
[01:10:50] Every, this is what happens.
[01:10:52] I think, um, actually I've been living in my little tiny vehicle for some years.
[01:10:57] You're, you're living the OG, uh, life.
[01:10:59] Dirt bag.
[01:11:00] What is it?
[01:11:01] What is your car again?
[01:11:02] Uh, Michivici Outlander.
[01:11:03] Yeah.
[01:11:04] Just, yeah.
[01:11:05] With a bunch of duct tape on the bumper.
[01:11:07] It's duct taped up.
[01:11:08] It has a hundred thousand stickers on it.
[01:11:10] It's like really small.
[01:11:13] I get like 35 miles a gallon.
[01:11:15] It's nice.
[01:11:17] But, um, yeah, I'm living in that vehicle.
[01:11:20] And the craziest thing is that you would never ever think about is like the day I started
[01:11:28] living, I was actually not planning on living in that little vehicle.
[01:11:32] Um, basically me and my ex-girlfriend broke up and we were living together.
[01:11:36] I just moved into my little car and I was like, at first I was like, oh my God,
[01:11:40] I need a van like right now.
[01:11:43] And then like a couple of weeks passed and I was like, wait a second.
[01:11:47] Like, I'm actually kind of used to this.
[01:11:49] This is like really doable.
[01:11:50] And then I noticed that my day-to-day life has changed and in a way where I'm forced to
[01:11:58] make the most out of every day now because I wake up and instead of like hanging out
[01:12:03] at the house, like making breakfast or whatever, I'm like, I can't just sit in my car.
[01:12:08] So I like just got, I just drive straight to the gym, just to not like the climbing gym,
[01:12:12] just like regular workout gym.
[01:12:14] Um, and then I'll go to work and then instead of like coming home and hanging out, I'll go
[01:12:21] straight to the climbing gym or straight to the workout gym or straight to go run or do
[01:12:26] something because I can't just sit in my car.
[01:12:27] So my day-to-day life, I'm literally just, um, working out and just trying to, I just read
[01:12:36] my book and my, um, in between times.
[01:12:39] And then I just work out as much as I can.
[01:12:41] How long is that going to go on?
[01:12:43] Forever.
[01:12:43] Forever.
[01:12:44] Forever.
[01:13:03] All right, folks.
[01:13:04] Thanks for listening.
[01:13:05] And thanks to Aaron for catching up in Lander.
[01:13:08] Thanks for the tracks he popped in there.
[01:13:10] Once again, you can check out the full length versions of those on the show notes.
[01:13:15] Did it hurt too bad?
[01:13:17] Did the politics hurt too bad?
[01:13:19] I don't know.
[01:13:20] It's pretty straightforward stuff.
[01:13:21] You know, racism exists and it's bad.
[01:13:24] But you know what?
[01:13:25] It's October 28th, 2024.
[01:13:28] And some shit just went down.
[01:13:31] That's really kind of questioning if that's a bedrock notion or not.
[01:13:36] I thought it was something we all agreed on.
[01:13:37] I hope we agree on it here at the EnormaCast.
[01:13:40] But maybe you do want to quibble, argue, spit some fire at Aaron about what constitutes
[01:13:46] racism in those other movements.
[01:13:48] I don't know.
[01:13:49] If that tickles your fancy, go to Arizona underscore Aaron on Instagram.
[01:13:54] He's ready for you.
[01:13:55] Or hell, you could say something nice.
[01:13:58] All right.
[01:13:59] Hopefully, instead of that, you'll just go fucking climbing, right?
[01:14:04] Better use of your time.
[01:14:06] And don't forget to vote.
[01:14:09] I mean, check your knots.
[01:14:30] The world is held together.
[01:14:31] Really, it is held together.
[01:14:33] But the love and the passion of very few people.
[01:14:39] Otherwise, of course, you can despair.
[01:14:42] Walk down the street of any city, any afternoon, and look around you.
[01:14:49] What you've got to remember is what you're looking at is also you.
[01:14:54] Everyone you're looking at is also you.
[01:14:57] You could be that person.
[01:15:00] You could be that monster.
[01:15:02] You could be that cop.
[01:15:07] And you're deciding yourself not to be.