Continue reading "Enormocast 288: Don McGrath – The Vertical Mind Returns"
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Whether they summit it or plummeted? They're gonna
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Playing here We're doing on the
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the normal down, whatever it is terrific. Oh.
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Look, you better get up there before you
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panic so it tend to loose.
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You're very good. I have really enjoyed having
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I don't think so.
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And now back to the show.
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Hello and welcome to the Enormous gases. Is
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your host, Chris Ka. It is
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07/09/2024,
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about 10:30PM
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here in Colorado.
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This is and this is episode,
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of the Enormous cast.
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A conversation with second time guest and author
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of
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the book vertical mind,
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Don Mcgrath.
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Yeah. Don was on the show back in
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the olden times.
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20 14,
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decade ago back when I had to explain
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what a podcast was. When I asked somebody
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to sit inside
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of my little Rv and record something. Those
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hal days back at the beginning. Don was
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an early adopter.
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He's kinda rev his role as the vertical
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mind guy. So I wanna talk to about
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what has happened for the last 10 years
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and what he's doing currently.
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But
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before that,
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I want to just say a few words
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about
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John Mid.
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Some of you might know that John Mid
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passed away and his sleep last month at
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the age of 65,
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which was a terrible surprise and
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big shock, I think to everyone John was
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an incredible big wall climber, hyper intelligent gear
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designer, loving husband and father. And above all,
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I think it was John's
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sweet nature and curiosity that made him stand
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out. As you longtime listeners know, he appeared
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on the podcast in 20 17,
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with stories of his wild adventures on Tango,
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Elk Cap and beyond, and it was kind
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of the beginning of a new phase of
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his contribution climbing with d 4 portal alleges
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edges,
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Incidentally, 1 of which kept me and my
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partner Steve D safe during several days of
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storm,
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on our golden gate san on A cap,
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which is also documented on this podcast,
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which is to say thanks, John. Your designs
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and trail blazing set so many other people,
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on the Adventurous path, kept them safe in
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the worst situations
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and help them weather the storms.
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We owe you do see
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R I ip my friend.
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And I encourage you guys to go back
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and listen to that podcast
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with John.
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His person personality really comes through
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great stories,
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great man.
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And finally, my condolences to his family.
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Must be the hardest thing.
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Alright. To the interview with Dom mcgrath. You
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know, I don't do the training thing. Here
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very often.
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So many other people,
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most of them friends of mine do it
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so much better
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However, this whole thing with controlling your mind
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or using your mind
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to help improve the way you approach climbing.
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To help improve the way you approach climbing,
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that's actually really interesting to me.
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Don was sort of early
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to that mode. I think
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mind
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coaching is quite popular now, but he was
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on his own a little bit back then.
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Ar Il was around training beta, dabble in
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it. Anyway, it was good to touch base.
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He's also aging, which we talk a little
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bit about that. That's something I'm facing. Some
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of you guys were facing.
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Something you all will face. I know it's
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hard to believe. I didn't fucking believe it.
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I didn't fucking believe it. Or maybe I
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didn't think I'd make it this far. I
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don't know.
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Anyhow, it's all here. It's a lot of
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fun. Starts cooking out till we get the
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preliminary out of the way. So check this
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out a re
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conversation
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with the author of vertical mind, Don Mcgrath.
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Matt alive did summer show up. And what's
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a climber to do when lounging at the
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lake slash river slash beach gets mind numbing
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boring after a couple dips and half a
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chapter of that classic you've sworn a read
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for the last 8 years to impress your
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mates.
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A h ahab, what's this about Whale anatomy
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again?
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So even though the or is out there
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waiting to suck the life from you like
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an empty snake skin, a climbing we will
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go because well, it's really all we have.
00:08:30
But Black Diamond has your son kissed back
00:08:33
with apparel to kick the heat.
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Cover up to cool down with the A
00:08:36
glow hoodie. Get little stone master retro with
00:08:40
the cord dirt bag shorts.
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Sun's out guns out with the women's project
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muscle t because well, who doesn't like sweaty
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muscles.
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And don't sleep on a cotton hoodie for
00:08:49
when the sun finally, thankfully goes down. Black
00:08:53
Diamond knows we're not smart enough to stay
00:08:55
off those skillet hot rocks in summer. So
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help is on the way.
00:08:59
Check out all the summer climbing apparel at
00:09:01
black diamond equipment dot com are your favorite
00:09:03
local shop and do your best to stay
00:09:06
cool with Bd.
00:09:09
But, yeah, I mean, welcome back, Don. I
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mean, you are an early guest on your
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normal cast. You were an early adopter as
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it were.
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I think if I remember right, we did
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an interview in rifle
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in the old mobile studio,
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parked on the side of the road.
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That right? We started out in the campground,
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and the river
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was too loud. Right. So we got in
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your little mobile studio, we drove up almost
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to them, like a forest. Yep. And I
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remember sitting there and that that was a
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that was a long time. Was 10:10 years
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ago. So that was early on 20 14.
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I think I only been doing it 2
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years or it was it was episode 61.
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1 of the distinctions of the enormous assets
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still hold true is that I was 1
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of the first of the block as far
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as doing the climbing podcast. I was not
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the first. Nor was the enormous cast, my
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first attempt at it actually. It's but, kinda
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sealed myself as as kind of an original
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there. And also, you know, your book, the
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vertical mind had come out. And
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I think you were also kind of, like,
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on the first wave of this idea of
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mental training of looking at kind of the
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roadblocks that our brain. It puts... Front of
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us as far as climbing is concerned. Again,
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not necessarily the first,
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you know, Ar was was out there with
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his program already and stuff like that, but,
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in an early adopter. So let's talk a
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little bit about, the history of that book.
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Yeah. In the last 10 years of of
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out there promoting these ideas and and
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and digging into new ideas around around the
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way we think about climbing.
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Yeah. And I wanna say congratulations, Europe to
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what? 277.
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I think I saw 277,
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something like that. I mean, that's that's a
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amazing so congrats. Yeah.
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Yeah. It's fantastic.
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For, yeah. I remember we were both climbing
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and rifle. Yep. And that's where vertical mind
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really got Genesis.
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I I have been doing some research on
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myself because I humming and rifle, what I
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was finding is I would 1 hang things
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way too many times. Like... And I... And
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then when I would do it, it was
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it would either seem me easy, or I
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sometimes I did things twice in the same
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day.
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And I began to realize that it it
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I I was... I probably was strong enough
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physically them a month ago? A month before,
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But it was really what was between my
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ears. It was really something and I didn't
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understand it. So I began researching it writing
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articles I had a blog for a while,
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and I had the good fortune of climbing
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a weekend in rifle with Jeff Ellis, who
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is the psychology professor from Adam State.
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And so we're sitting there. We had a
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great day climbing, and we're drinking as margarita
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you know, in the campground. And
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Be careful as Margarita, it's all I gonna
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say, like, if he gives your a margarita
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and 1 might be enough. But we... We're
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having end writing a book. Yeah. I'm gonna
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break. Go either way. Started... Yeah. Or you
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in the maria book. You either you either
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end up face down in a ditch or
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you write a book. It's... It's the end
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or the other. Well, the second day, I
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didn't roll out of my car camper to
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like, 10:10AM,
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but everybody else was gone. But in the
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in the process, Jeff was telling me about
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his research and by the end of the
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weekend, we decided we were gonna write something.
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We didn't we didn't know it's called Vertical
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mind. And then we had a few calls,
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and I think it Think it was, like,
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9 months later. We submitted a manuscript to
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to Fred Nap at Sharp, and he he
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he absolutely loved it. So that's kinda how
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it got started there very organically in in
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rifle. It's something obviously that everybody has thought
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about and
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has run into these roadblocks, and it's really...
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I think Like I said in the last,
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I guess it's been 10 years,
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since since you were on the show and
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and this project started a couple years before
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that.
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That we've been kind of formally thinking about
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it a lot,
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and applying outside kind of knowledge to
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what we do in climbing. And I think
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the training end of things. The physical training
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end of things has has also had that
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same... It's process in the last decade,
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more. We were kinda shooting around in the
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dark and then started to think about it
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more,
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I guess, eloquently and and with more information.
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So you know, tell me about your own
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path as far as as using some of
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this,
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information, you know, you obviously wrote it as
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much for yourself as for other people or
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at least you researched it for yourself. So
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tell me a little bit about your pathway
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with what you learned and what you were
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able to apply it kind of immediately to
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the way you were climbing.
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Yeah. I kind started because started out of
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selfish.
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Really, it started out of selfish. I was
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I was trying to... Become a better climber.
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And I did... I read pretty much everything
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I could read. You know, I've I've got
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a phd so I'll read everything. Right? I
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got research and research and stuff about running
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and and and sports psychology and confidence and
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all these all these things.
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And
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1 of the things that that really struck
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me
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was being in the moment, like, just being
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in the moment. And I got thinking about
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that. Really, when I coach people, this is
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like the number 1 thing that I coach
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them on that I see has almost immediate
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factors.
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1 move at a time. And so I
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began practicing on myself,
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climbing in the moment. And
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by that,
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I mean, like, when I grab a hold,
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I would just get geek out on it.
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Like, get so deep at. How does that
00:14:21
feel like, finding the perfect, way to get
00:14:24
the thumb catch and really just going very,
00:14:27
very deep and really working on my mindset
00:14:29
of staying in the moment,
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And I found that I remember I've been
00:14:34
practicing this for, like, maybe a month or
00:14:36
so, and I went with a friend of
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mine to
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to came in back.
00:14:40
And we were climbing at Dixon wall. And
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I, like, did this 12 be second try.
00:14:44
And I didn't do that. Like, that wasn't
00:14:46
what Don Mcgrath could do at the time.
00:14:48
And so that really pointed out to me
00:14:51
the power of this. Right? And that's just
00:14:53
1 example of just 1 move at a
00:14:55
time staying in the moment What's behind you
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doesn't matter what's ahead of it doesn't matter.
00:14:59
The more you can stay in that moment
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climb and 1 move at a time, the
00:15:02
better you're gonna climb.
00:15:03
So that was like my big wake prize.
00:15:06
Was like, wow, there's really something here. And
00:15:08
that's when I really started digging in and
00:15:10
reading more and experimenting more. And And to
00:15:12
this day, I use that in my coaching,
00:15:14
I use that in myself, and hey. I'm,
00:15:16
I may know a lot about this, but
00:15:18
it doesn't mean I use it all the
00:15:19
time. I fall off the wagon, and I,
00:15:21
you know, I've got times. The life gets
00:15:23
busy.
00:15:24
I I get away from climbing for a
00:15:26
little bit, or I get sick or I
00:15:27
get sloppy. And I bring myself back and
00:15:29
I start doing some of these drills and
00:15:31
and I and I see those same payoffs.
00:15:33
1 of the other,
00:15:35
like, kind of trends or or, I guess,
00:15:37
some... There's been a proliferation of coaching around
00:15:41
controlling fear. So vertical mind... I mean, that
00:15:44
was this much bigger kind of... Talking. I
00:15:47
know I know fear is a part of
00:15:48
it. But what what do you think in
00:15:50
terms of, like, your your clinics or or
00:15:52
the people that approach you or or your
00:15:54
methods Like, what... How much of of it
00:15:56
is about training through fear and and how
00:15:58
much of it is is sort of other
00:16:00
techniques or other boundaries?
00:16:02
Mean, certainly Fear is something we we talk
00:16:04
about in vertical mind. I mean, something that's
00:16:06
very, very common for climber.
00:16:09
Specifically when we talk about fear of falling
00:16:10
and fear of failure, which are 2 different
00:16:13
types of fear that can,
00:16:14
hold climber back. But I... You know, I
00:16:17
think 1 of the big things we do
00:16:19
that's maybe may... Has made us a little
00:16:20
bit different. I'm sure Mh. Other other people
00:16:22
have probably done it is what is the...
00:16:25
What's the science behind cognitive learning? We introduced
00:16:27
this concept of sc.
00:16:29
Which are how your brain recognizes that these
00:16:32
patterns. Like, you recognize when you're in a
00:16:34
situation by visual cues that your brain just
00:16:36
filters and nose immediately and puts... To some
00:16:39
kind of a tag on it, some based
00:16:41
upon your your memories and your life experiences.
00:16:44
And then there's scripts which these automatic things
00:16:46
that come out of your subconscious that you're
00:16:48
in given situation,
00:16:49
they play out automatically. And we have all
00:16:52
of us have these scripts, 90 percent of
00:16:54
what we do is when run off of
00:16:55
scripts. Right? We don't have to think about
00:16:57
brushing our teeth, we just brush our teeth.
00:16:59
So,
00:17:00
I think giving people an understanding of these
00:17:03
psychological processes and then how to why training
00:17:06
works. So like, III love 1 know, I
00:17:09
understand not just what to do, but why?
00:17:12
Like, why am I doing this? Like, 1,
00:17:14
what am I actually doing? And these are
00:17:17
these are well known psychological,
00:17:20
concepts that I think we do a pretty
00:17:21
good job of explaining, given the context and
00:17:24
then drills around those to help you overcome
00:17:26
whatever whatever the challenge you're having is. And
00:17:29
I was thinking too about how, like, those
00:17:31
scripts and and that... That's a good way
00:17:33
to even think about what I was trying
00:17:35
to figure out is... Yeah We also have
00:17:37
these notions of sort of who we are
00:17:39
and and You and I as, you know,
00:17:41
we're we're both growing older, but we're still
00:17:43
trying to climb and still trying to perform,
00:17:45
and you know, that comes with also to
00:17:47
other issues. But
00:17:48
you know, this idea of who you are
00:17:50
as a climber
00:17:52
kinda gets cemented as well and and, you
00:17:55
know, for better and worse at at at
00:17:57
certain times. And I was thinking about myself
00:17:59
and how
00:18:00
recently, you know, I don't think much has
00:18:02
changed in my life, but I've I've noticed
00:18:04
that I'm not not climbing above my gear
00:18:06
and I'm not... And I'm getting gripped, especially
00:18:09
with try climbing, like, a climbing above cams
00:18:11
or whatever,
00:18:13
And and it's kind of been this a
00:18:15
thing where I've finally had to step back
00:18:17
and say, okay, Well, you have this notion
00:18:18
of you as this, like relatively bold climber.
00:18:22
Or at least like a a proficient tread
00:18:24
climber that can, you know, allow his feet
00:18:26
above the gear, you know, at at the
00:18:28
very least not run out, but, as soon
00:18:30
as my waist gets above the gear. I
00:18:32
start to get a little jittery. And so
00:18:34
it's like, I've just recently...
00:18:35
I said to my wife
00:18:37
on a trip I was going down to
00:18:38
climb. In in indian Creek, I'm like, I
00:18:40
just wanna go and and, like, fall
00:18:42
on my cams because I I seem to
00:18:44
have lost that ability
00:18:46
And it's like, it's like I changed, and
00:18:49
I haven't kinda... And I haven't sort of
00:18:50
acknowledged that. Oh, and I've I I finally
00:18:53
had this moment. I'm like, I think I
00:18:54
need to go back to the drawing board
00:18:56
here and take some whip,
00:18:58
even just practice falls, which I was, like,
00:19:00
I thought I was way beyond, you know,
00:19:02
practice falling onto to gear, like, you know,
00:19:05
years ago. But here I am again, like,
00:19:07
you know, this script has changed in a
00:19:09
way, and I haven't, like, noticed it
00:19:11
and I need to go back to the
00:19:13
drawing board and do a little training, I
00:19:14
think if I can. I mean, I'm gonna
00:19:15
find out if I can get up above
00:19:17
gear at all and and leap off or
00:19:19
not. Yeah. Well they did drift a few.
00:19:22
Yeah. They they drift. And like I said
00:19:24
before, like, I have to go back and
00:19:25
do my training. Like, every once in a
00:19:27
while. I gotta go back. When I find
00:19:29
out that, gosh, I haven't been climbing outside
00:19:31
very much. It's very different than climbing the
00:19:34
gym, very different tread climbing
00:19:36
So you gotta you gotta strengthen those scripts
00:19:38
again. The good news is
00:19:40
they're much easier to get back than they
00:19:42
ought to formulate in the beginning. You know,
00:19:44
I don't think it'll take a heck of
00:19:45
a lot, but they drift. So my guess
00:19:47
is you now have drifted away from the
00:19:50
the the cemented belief that you can climb
00:19:53
comfortably above your gear. There's some doubt in
00:19:55
there somewhere. Your belief is Benny eroded. You're,
00:19:58
like well, what if I fall? I gonna
00:19:59
get hurt? I got a kid now. I
00:20:01
got, you know, there's things that shape our
00:20:03
beliefs.
00:20:04
And so you know, I think just going
00:20:06
back and building up a little arsenal of
00:20:08
uneven falls. You know, Gonna be like, hey,
00:20:11
he'll get that script back pretty quick. They
00:20:13
they've ref reform pretty quickly. So 10 years
00:20:15
has gone by, as I mentioned in the
00:20:17
beginning, and obviously, you've learned a lot more
00:20:20
since vertical mine came out. Tell me a
00:20:22
little bit about that about sort of your
00:20:24
progress as a coach
00:20:26
with other people, your progress with yourself over
00:20:28
the last... The years. Is there is there
00:20:30
certain insights you can point to that that
00:20:32
maybe
00:20:33
have have been more significant than others
00:20:37
since the book was written and since you
00:20:39
sort of embarked on this
00:20:41
mission, because that... It's funny because with these
00:20:43
these sorts of things, it it becomes a
00:20:45
mission to sort of change everybody's lives for
00:20:47
the better, and I think you've been on
00:20:49
that mission for 10 years
00:20:51
as a coach. It Day. Just would just
00:20:53
wanna help people so they don't have to
00:20:55
take the long road. So I guess there's
00:20:57
a couple of things. 1 thing that I've
00:20:59
seen in my workshops that...
00:21:02
The most impactful thing, and is it seems
00:21:05
like a silly thing,
00:21:06
but I've just seen it work over and
00:21:08
over again and my... In more workshops I
00:21:09
teach these the pre climb ritual. Because 1
00:21:11
of the... 1 of the things that happens
00:21:13
to us is, you know, we'll go climb
00:21:15
on a given day. Some days, we have
00:21:17
good days. Some of these days we have
00:21:18
bet. Some days we were more nervous when
00:21:20
we're climbing. Some days we say, get a
00:21:22
bat burrito. I don't feel so good today.
00:21:23
And our our motivation and our fun can
00:21:26
actually fluctuate with that. And 1 of the
00:21:28
big things is
00:21:30
getting in the right state of mind when
00:21:31
you start a climb. Getting in a consistent
00:21:34
state of mind when you're start a climb.
00:21:36
And that usually wants to be a pretty
00:21:39
calm state of mind. Usually wanna be kinda
00:21:41
unless you're doing some big d right off
00:21:43
the deck. You know? You wanna be kinda
00:21:45
a a calm state of mind, not distracted
00:21:47
and very very focused on what you're doing,
00:21:49
breathing. So there's a series of things I
00:21:52
teach in my workshops about... You the pre
00:21:54
ritual and what to do to get to
00:21:56
that state and involves breathing it involves a
00:21:59
safety check. It involves stop replacement, like mine
00:22:02
is 1 move at a time. So as
00:22:04
soon as I am up, you know, soon
00:22:06
as I'm up climbing. I start driving out
00:22:09
all those negative thoughts like, oh, the knee
00:22:10
bar is gonna hurt this time or oh.
00:22:12
Be a scary wallet there. The crux is
00:22:14
really hard. It's just astounding what some simple,
00:22:17
simple things can make a huge difference for
00:22:20
people. It could And I've seen in a
00:22:22
couple hours, these things help people in their
00:22:24
climbing.
00:22:26
So that... That's 1. That's been astounding. That
00:22:28
just such a simple thing is... Creating and
00:22:30
practicing
00:22:32
a pre time ritual, and what what what
00:22:33
I ask people to do
00:22:35
is doing it on every climb. The warm
00:22:37
up everything, you know,
00:22:39
practice practice all this stuff in your warm
00:22:41
offs we don't learn to play the Piano
00:22:43
on the stage at the Grand old op.
00:22:46
We learn in a safe environment.
00:22:48
Where we can practice slowly and deliberately
00:22:51
and mindful.
00:22:53
So
00:22:54
that's
00:22:55
that's kinda of... It's may seem like a
00:22:57
silly thing, but having people have used who
00:22:59
religiously use a pre prime ritual. They find
00:23:01
a big difference in their ability to...
00:23:04
To climb get more joy out of their
00:23:05
climbing on a climbing day. Yeah. I mean,
00:23:07
it's it's interesting to kind of, like,
00:23:11
Again, I mean, going back to, I guess,
00:23:13
my
00:23:15
you know, pre conceived notions
00:23:17
is,
00:23:18
like, Yeah. Like, all that would seem to
00:23:21
me or would have seemed to me, like,
00:23:23
kind of fl fl. I'm like, yeah, whatever.
00:23:25
Like, you know, just... I'm tied in. I'm
00:23:27
I'm going climbing.
00:23:29
You know,
00:23:30
I don't I don't have to do all
00:23:31
these sorts of things
00:23:33
as part of my climbing day.
00:23:35
And is it... Do you find it, like,
00:23:37
tricky to convince, like,
00:23:39
jerks like me to to,
00:23:42
I guess if people are coming to you,
00:23:43
they want stuff. But Yeah. No. I don't
00:23:45
spend... Getting over somebody you doesn't want. Doesn't
00:23:47
wanna my clients new. Not that's a waste
00:23:49
of my breath. And in fact, I, I
00:23:51
do very little coaching now because I I
00:23:53
wanted to climb. I'm I'm kinda 60 something.
00:23:55
I only got so many client tickets left.
00:23:57
I only got so many tickets in a,
00:23:59
in a week.
00:24:00
So I'll usually to coach people if I
00:24:03
I get... I do a workshop. Don't do
00:24:05
those at off. And or if somebody reaches
00:24:06
out, some sometimes like, I had this mother
00:24:10
of a 10 year old competition climber.
00:24:12
Reach out to me and say, hey, you
00:24:13
know, my my son gets really nervous and
00:24:15
distracted. Can you help? And I was like,
00:24:17
okay. So III
00:24:19
help them. I don't I don't waste time.
00:24:21
Trying to convince anybody to do anything. I
00:24:23
I want
00:24:25
I want people coming
00:24:26
with a open mind that I'll try this.
00:24:28
You know, And and in my workshops, I...
00:24:30
I'm like, Listen.
00:24:32
The these are things I... That you can
00:24:35
try. You know, I'm gonna... In in the
00:24:37
3 or 4 hours, I usually give a
00:24:39
lot of things. Right? It's way more. And
00:24:41
I say, if you just take 1 thing.
00:24:42
Just 1 thing that makes sense for you.
00:24:45
And everything else throw away, Like, you can
00:24:46
throw it all the way, but just be
00:24:48
open and and try it.
00:24:50
And that's those are the people I want
00:24:51
in my workshops. And they're are the ones
00:24:52
who see to benefit. Do you still do
00:24:54
workshops then? Yeah. Once in a while. Okay.
00:24:56
Just not just not straight up coaching.
00:24:58
Yeah. And coaching, I just don't... It's it's
00:25:00
very, very time consuming, and,
00:25:03
I just... I I feel back because I,
00:25:04
you know, it may sound weird, but I
00:25:06
just I... My time is too valuable.
00:25:08
Sure. You know? I I don't I I
00:25:10
can't... Don't I feel bad charging people that
00:25:12
much money because it's just... It's... I don't
00:25:14
know. So I do your heart's not in
00:25:17
it. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I do
00:25:18
workshops. I really enjoy that. I do I
00:25:21
did a talk yesterday. I love I love
00:25:23
teaching people things. Mh. Coaching, I do on
00:25:25
a very, very select basis. I have people
00:25:27
reach out to me probably every month. And
00:25:29
and I asked him a few questions. I
00:25:31
asked them how committed they are. I ask
00:25:33
you know, been a little bit about their
00:25:34
background and pretty quickly, we decide whether it's
00:25:37
a good fit or not. It's it's... And
00:25:39
it's it's usually it's usually not.
00:25:44
Well, you know, I've been thinking about this
00:25:46
thing, and this may be a total tangible.
00:25:49
You know, I don't know what your insights
00:25:50
are. And, I think it was actually Hazel
00:25:53
that
00:25:54
I had someone on that was talking about
00:25:56
this,
00:25:57
this idea of, like, a lot of climber
00:26:00
don't seem to actually enjoy climbing or or,
00:26:03
like, think climbing is all that fun. You
00:26:05
know, every time they they sort of arrive
00:26:06
at the Craig. It's it's this crucible on
00:26:09
which they're gonna test themselves, and I'm not
00:26:11
even talking about project I'm just talking about
00:26:13
for a lot of people like, going climbing.
00:26:16
Is filled with kind of
00:26:19
you know, hurdles, all sorts of hurdles. And
00:26:22
whatever attraction they have to it Isn't about
00:26:24
going out and having fun, but about going
00:26:26
out and sort of, like, what is my
00:26:28
day gonna, like, challenge me with. And I
00:26:30
just find it really interesting. I I was
00:26:32
just recently talking to someone about it How,
00:26:33
like, I noticed that a crowded cliff
00:26:36
that, like, a lot of people really just
00:26:38
weren't that into the climbing. Like, it's they
00:26:40
were into there being a climber and stuff,
00:26:43
but
00:26:44
are not very many people are like, whipping
00:26:45
it up and having a good time. Like,
00:26:47
where does, like, this idea of
00:26:50
moving away from this kind of, you know,
00:26:53
always testing yourself, always pushing yourself, always trying
00:26:55
to overcome these things to just having fun,
00:26:59
and remembering that it's like a fun activity
00:27:01
that you don't have to do. You don't...
00:27:03
No 1 is forcing you to go out
00:27:05
there and get scared and and feel like
00:27:07
a failure. Awesome Like, where is this trying
00:27:09
to preach like, have a good time. Yeah.
00:27:12
Does that fit into sort of your coaching?
00:27:14
The space finding is a meetings
00:27:16
activity. Right.
00:27:18
I mean, it's kinda very selfish and very
00:27:20
kind of meaningless. Right? It's really... If you're
00:27:22
not if you're not doing it for fun,
00:27:24
you're kinda not only this... The ball you
00:27:27
missed the whole game. The subtitle of vertical
00:27:29
mind is psychological approaches for optimal rock climbing.
00:27:32
Mh. Not difficult rock climbing. Optimal rock climbing.
00:27:36
We actually talk a lot about fun and
00:27:38
what's the psychology of fun and how to
00:27:40
create more joy and fun in your climbing,
00:27:42
And when you can reduce the anxiety, you
00:27:45
tend to have more fun, like that pre
00:27:47
ritual is about really managing that anxiety.
00:27:50
You know, so when you start the climb,
00:27:52
you're actually in a much better much better
00:27:54
state. So I think it's extremely important. And
00:27:57
I think,
00:27:59
and maybe this is why we're... I've she's
00:28:01
seen so much energy around vertical mine the
00:28:02
past couple of years. And that's kinda why
00:28:04
I'm doing this again. Right? I I kinda
00:28:06
bunch of stop. When a book first came
00:28:08
out, and then I kinda went to sleep
00:28:10
on it, and I retired for my job,
00:28:11
and then I'd been trying to figure out
00:28:12
what what I wanna do with by time
00:28:14
besides climb and eat and sleep and how
00:28:16
fun my wife. That's it. So I think
00:28:18
that's enough actually.
00:28:21
So you've added 1 more thing, but anyway.
00:28:24
It's it's...
00:28:26
There's a lot of energy around it, and
00:28:27
I think there's a whole...
00:28:29
You know, what this space? When we started
00:28:31
climbing, you got declining because you knew a
00:28:33
climber.
00:28:34
Or you were involved in the outdoors and
00:28:37
you saw climbing as something that seems sensible.
00:28:39
Right? Mh. And so that was pretty narrowing,
00:28:42
the personalities of people who started climbing 10:20,
00:28:45
30 years ago was a very
00:28:47
narrow type of person.
00:28:50
And now with a thousand people a day
00:28:52
being introduced to climbing gyms in the Us
00:28:54
alone, there's a whole group of new people
00:28:57
with Right. Whole different backgrounds.
00:28:59
And many of them, they don't enter it
00:29:02
wanting to climb hard at all. Like, they
00:29:03
use it for exercises, they do it because,
00:29:06
you know, they didn't like their old gym
00:29:08
or they got tired of pilates or they
00:29:10
were and a friend brought. Them and they
00:29:11
were like, wow, It's really cool. So I
00:29:13
think I think there's a lot more people
00:29:15
who they just do it for fun and
00:29:17
they wanna know how do I do it
00:29:18
for fun yet,
00:29:21
manage these things that come with it, which
00:29:23
is fear of falling. Right, which is fear
00:29:25
of failure, which is these automatic things that
00:29:27
at some point they encounter in their journey.
00:29:30
Yeah. Well, to me that it's a real
00:29:31
paradox.
00:29:32
That I've I've I've come to accept. And
00:29:35
actually, maybe the podcast has been a desire
00:29:38
to sort of sort this out, but you
00:29:40
know, I I can go there. I can
00:29:42
sit in front of you and be, like,
00:29:43
people should be having fun climbing, but I
00:29:45
know my own experience with it is that
00:29:48
if it was just dumb fun,
00:29:50
I wouldn't be interested in it. And it,
00:29:52
you know, it you can go and bungee
00:29:53
jump. Right? That's like a classic like dumb
00:29:56
fun.
00:29:57
Thing where you can get a little thrill
00:29:59
and and walk away, like, laughing. But,
00:30:02
like, the... To me, at least the the
00:30:05
the the challenge and the knock downs, if
00:30:08
you will. And the times when I do
00:30:10
actually get pushed beyond my comfort zone,
00:30:13
and maybe also get pushed to where I
00:30:15
do feel like something of a failure that
00:30:18
day. Like, those things are also this really
00:30:21
important ingredient to climbing climbing would not be
00:30:23
interesting to me if we're just that goof
00:30:26
around out there all the time. Well, there's.
00:30:28
So it's it's like this weird balance or
00:30:31
this weird mick and and so I can't
00:30:33
always tell people like, you know, you you
00:30:35
should just have fun because,
00:30:37
I mean, and and then we get into
00:30:39
if we wanna get into sort of big
00:30:40
climbing.
00:30:41
You know, the suffering is certainly an ingredient
00:30:44
that is an important part of it to
00:30:46
any a, you know? So Anyway, I'll let
00:30:49
you comment on that, but it it's it's
00:30:50
this heavy mix and and without the heavy
00:30:52
mix,
00:30:53
it wouldn't be what it is. Well, 2
00:30:55
things come to mind in... From what you
00:30:57
said. 1 is and and we actually talk
00:30:59
a lot about this in vertical mind we
00:31:00
talk about
00:31:01
motivation. And, you know, there's a flavor of
00:31:04
happiness
00:31:05
that comes
00:31:06
we call probably more like fulfillment is a
00:31:08
probably maybe a better word. Right? And that's
00:31:11
driven by... We all love to master something.
00:31:15
We all love to move along as our
00:31:16
human brains are this way. We'd love to
00:31:19
see ourselves progress on something. It's mastery motivation
00:31:22
drives a lot of them like, we we
00:31:24
love feeling what it's like to be able
00:31:26
to type something we couldn't hike before. Be
00:31:29
able to... It's you know, play an instrument
00:31:31
that we've never been, and we haven't been
00:31:32
able to play, you know, practice for a
00:31:34
long time and then eventually perform a concerts.
00:31:36
So there's parts of our brain,
00:31:39
that just love that. And so I still
00:31:41
label that fun.
00:31:43
It's right. It's kinda fulfillment. Right? Right.
00:31:47
So, like, I went out yesterday, my often
00:31:49
and I went to off road. We just
00:31:50
wanted to get out because the weather's is
00:31:52
gonna be crappy in the next 2 weeks.
00:31:54
We went there and we tried to get
00:31:56
away from the crowds, and we did a
00:31:57
bunch of stuff we had done before. And
00:31:58
we didn't do anything difficult.
00:32:01
But I love getting on these climbs just
00:32:03
walking up to them never been on them
00:32:05
and just do them, just feeling great.
00:32:08
And it wasn't... It was it was mastery
00:32:11
motivation. Like, just the fact that I could
00:32:13
walk up to this thing and just feel
00:32:15
great on outside it and just you know,
00:32:16
it challenge me a little bit enough to
00:32:18
make it interesting and to feel that mastering
00:32:20
motivation. But, yeah. That... So there's there's a
00:32:23
certain flavor,
00:32:25
of fun that is in that mastery motivation
00:32:28
That makes sense? Totally. I mean, you know,
00:32:30
this proliferation of... What's
00:32:33
become a meme and a and a meme
00:32:34
in the sort of old school sense, not
00:32:36
just a a picture on Instagram, but the
00:32:38
meme of the type 123 fun thing. Like,
00:32:41
you know, that seems like it's always been
00:32:43
here, but I think that, like, started to
00:32:45
appear about 10 years ago. This this way
00:32:47
of signify. You know, I was type 2
00:32:49
fun or whatever. And I think it's funny
00:32:52
because it's this kinda of joke and it's
00:32:54
this meme that's gone through not just climbing,
00:32:56
but all all types of, I think, outdoor
00:32:59
activities.
00:33:00
But it's also, like, embedded in it, maybe
00:33:02
this is why it caught on so much
00:33:03
is this like what you're talking about. So
00:33:06
it's it's kinda fascinating that, like, this little
00:33:09
thing that we toss off, I always was
00:33:11
type 2 fun or whatever, is actually, like,
00:33:13
you know, you could probably do a psychology
00:33:15
thesis on it
00:33:16
if if you wanted to because it's all
00:33:18
in there. What we're talking about, You know?
00:33:20
I really think... The more emotional something is,
00:33:24
the easier it is to to connect with
00:33:27
that memory.
00:33:28
Okay? So think about, like, the times of
00:33:30
great successes or the times of most misery.
00:33:33
You'll remember,
00:33:35
you'll remember that. Right? It'll I'll bring you
00:33:36
back, you almost have the smells of it,
00:33:38
You can... It's almost spooky. Right? You almost
00:33:40
feel whatever the feeling was at that time.
00:33:43
So the more emotional something is, the more
00:33:46
that memory is easier to... Call and the
00:33:48
more physically you feel that memory. Mh. And
00:33:50
so there's some psychology around that. So in
00:33:53
this type 2 fun situation, like, I was
00:33:54
just out in Red rock, fine with an
00:33:56
old call mentor mine, and we were up
00:33:58
in the room, and we were getting... We
00:34:00
were in the shade, and it was only
00:34:01
like, 50 something degrees, and it was 40
00:34:04
mile hour gust, and we were getting
00:34:06
splash it up there. I bet I was
00:34:08
2 canyon over from you that same day
00:34:10
it. Anyway, keep going? Yeah. It was it
00:34:12
was really really brutal like... Yeah. And
00:34:16
So... But I will remember that. Like, I
00:34:18
will remember that. I go, I could almost
00:34:20
picture the ballet. Like, I could picture being
00:34:22
there. I could. I... Not exactly what sling
00:34:25
I was using, but it's clubs.
00:34:27
So I think that's 1 of the reasons
00:34:29
we like this type too fun.
00:34:31
Is it creates
00:34:33
unbelievably vivid memories. And and think about the
00:34:37
stories you tell. Right? I still tell stories
00:34:39
of type too fun from
00:34:41
20 years ago, and and they're... And I
00:34:43
can get right back there. And so that...
00:34:45
That's 1 of the reasons I think we
00:34:46
like it is it just brings back those
00:34:49
It brings us back there so vividly. Alright.
00:34:51
Well, let me throw this 1 at. Yeah.
00:34:52
We're we're a little bit away from the
00:34:54
vertical mind, but but just here... Your expertise
00:34:57
in this stuff, and and and your your
00:34:59
writing partner, Jeff's expertise. So this idea of,
00:35:02
like, a your reflective group, I think a
00:35:05
very...
00:35:06
Difficult thing to get past and climbing is
00:35:08
comparison.
00:35:09
And, you know, what your group is doing
00:35:11
versus what you're doing, what the greater climbing
00:35:14
world is doing versus who you are as
00:35:15
a climber. You know, we're talking about how
00:35:17
we met and rifle and rifles, you know,
00:35:19
this important place for us as as our
00:35:21
progression as climber, but it's very difficult place
00:35:23
to to walk into as a as a
00:35:26
newer or a or a, you know,
00:35:29
climber that's climbing 05:10? I mean, literally, it's
00:35:31
not great for that. But, you know, so
00:35:34
what what are you kind of
00:35:36
do and sort of, like,
00:35:38
preach as far as as that world is
00:35:40
concerned because it's really difficult to get around,
00:35:43
you know,
00:35:44
knowing... I mean, you go in and and
00:35:46
when you go to climb 05:11 in a
00:35:49
place that's a sport climbing area,
00:35:51
not just rifle, but all over, you know,
00:35:54
there is this idea that you're on the
00:35:56
warm up, you know, and there's people standing
00:35:58
in line waiting for you to get done
00:36:00
so they can work
00:36:02
Hang on. I know. And it may not
00:36:04
be a warm up for you, and that's
00:36:05
my whole point. Not. And I... You know,
00:36:07
you and I have watched this happen at
00:36:08
the meats. Right? The the the infamous, like,
00:36:11
05:11 warm ups and and rifle. Where someone
00:36:14
is up there prop, like, working on it,
00:36:16
and everybody's... Gru or may maybe not literally,
00:36:20
but the person up there thinks they hear
00:36:21
them gru. That's the difference.
00:36:24
Appearance so that. Well, So anyway, where do
00:36:26
you go with, like, your it's actually the
00:36:28
reference group. That's that's what... That's the word
00:36:29
I was looking for. This idea of comparing
00:36:32
yourself and and being in the mix.
00:36:35
Because it's definitely a brute brutal part of
00:36:37
our sport. So here's the thing is we
00:36:39
are we are human animals, and there's part
00:36:41
of our brain also.
00:36:43
The reason
00:36:44
The reason we're still here is we are
00:36:46
social creatures and we live for hundreds or
00:36:48
maybe thousands of years we lived in tribes.
00:36:51
Right? We lived in social
00:36:53
situations where if we got expelled from the
00:36:55
tribe, what would happen to us?
00:36:57
And you'd be dead. You that
00:36:59
The saber tooth would munch you if like
00:37:02
Dude there's some other tribe would come and
00:37:03
take your stuff and kill an. I don't
00:37:04
know. But... Yeah. If... You know, so it's,
00:37:07
you know, it's part of our Dna.
00:37:10
To wanna be accepted. You know, they... In
00:37:12
psychology pop technologies. Oh, we all wanna be
00:37:14
accepted. Well, that's true. We all do wanna
00:37:16
be accepted, and it's it's wired. Right?
00:37:19
So
00:37:20
you can't feel bad about that. It we're
00:37:23
wired that way. The reality is,
00:37:26
nobody cares.
00:37:27
I mean, in inc context, nobody really cares.
00:37:31
And I I was gonna to talk up
00:37:33
at the B,
00:37:34
maybe it was a year ago or so
00:37:35
and I asked, you know, about
00:37:38
scripts and, you know, some things that are
00:37:39
holding people back. And 1 guy was like,
00:37:41
he climbed in rifle. He just started climbing
00:37:43
there and he he was training and He...
00:37:46
He wanted to get him pup rama, he's
00:37:47
like, man, I get there, and I'd see,
00:37:49
you know, there'd be a line and I
00:37:51
see people doing it, Like, like, it's a
00:37:53
warm up and monkey hanging like all this
00:37:55
stuff. Right? So... And he said, I just
00:37:58
don't want people to think more of me.
00:37:59
I to think less me. Right? And and
00:38:01
I I had to give him the tough
00:38:03
love. I was like, you know,
00:38:05
nobody nobody cares.
00:38:06
And nobody cares. No. They don't. The lat.
00:38:09
Say, when they're at home having their favorite
00:38:11
beverage, whether it be a t or whether
00:38:12
it be an adult beverage.
00:38:14
They can me think about you? No. No.
00:38:17
They're they're... We only live in our own
00:38:18
bubbles. Right? The only thing is they might
00:38:21
think, you know, they might watch you struggle
00:38:23
on something like oh, I remember when I
00:38:24
first struggled on that. Most likely they'd be
00:38:26
saying, hey, dude. Awesome.
00:38:29
Way to work. Right? That's what people really
00:38:32
are saying more likely.
00:38:34
Once in a while, you might get a
00:38:36
snarky person who's like, oh, god. I get
00:38:38
off that thing. I'm gonna lose my warm
00:38:40
up. But they're again, they're thinking about them.
00:38:42
Right. It's not directed to you.
00:38:45
Right. It's really directed at them. So people
00:38:47
really don't care. And I think just coming
00:38:49
to a recollection.
00:38:51
That, you know, we all live in our
00:38:53
own bubbles, you may think.
00:38:55
Here's thing. If if you are having a...
00:38:58
If you're thinking that you know what someone
00:38:59
else is thinking,
00:39:01
you are 100 percent wrong. Right. You are
00:39:03
a hundred percent wrong. There's 0 chance you're
00:39:04
gonna be right. And so why
00:39:07
why think that they're thinking something that holds
00:39:10
you back? Why put that in their mind
00:39:12
when there's, like, hundred bit of chance. That's
00:39:13
not there. They're thinking about when are they
00:39:16
hungry? When are they gonna get rest? You
00:39:18
know, I hope they get a campsite tonight.
00:39:20
They're thinking of a million other things,
00:39:22
not you. No. It's funny because I've had
00:39:25
that conversation and... You the exact 1, like,
00:39:27
actually with my wife because she sort of
00:39:29
has... She she she kind of has this
00:39:32
ambivalent
00:39:33
attitude to rifle, and
00:39:35
you know, kinda
00:39:36
says she feels that. And I'm like, no.
00:39:39
No 1, like, that's why I'm like no
00:39:40
1 cares. Like, and and in fact what
00:39:42
I realized is that maybe that's the problem.
00:39:45
Is is not necessarily her, but but people
00:39:47
want us to care, and we don't. Like,
00:39:49
you know what I mean Like, you said
00:39:50
the tough love is that, yeah. We, you
00:39:52
know, whatever you're doing over there on your
00:39:54
climb.
00:39:55
We're not watching. We're not caring if we
00:39:57
glance up there. It's just, you know, it
00:39:59
was because we're... Bored and we're just looking
00:40:01
around. You know, Like... And that's kind of
00:40:04
the funny thing I was like, well, maybe
00:40:05
that's the problem. They wanna...
00:40:07
A loser.
00:40:08
Comparison the loser. No matter... No matter what,
00:40:11
Like, no matter what you compare money, cars,
00:40:13
like, blah. Name it. Whatever... Mh. Whatever you
00:40:16
wanna compare yourself it? There's somebody who's got,
00:40:18
like,
00:40:19
way more of it. Whether it be way
00:40:20
less of it. Right? So
00:40:23
comparing it's its total losing game. It's it's
00:40:25
like you never get fulfilled. With comparison. And
00:40:28
in fact, that could be 1 of the
00:40:29
reasons this pre climb ritual is so effective.
00:40:32
Because when you're... 1 of the things is
00:40:34
like the stop replacement. So when you get
00:40:36
up which for many people as they start
00:40:38
putting their shoes on or something. Right? Having
00:40:40
the stop replacement of 1 move at a
00:40:41
time when move at a time, when move
00:40:42
at a time, you're... You can only have
00:40:44
1 thought in time, So you're pushing out,
00:40:46
oh, what are people gonna think of me?
00:40:49
Oh, do I really belong on this route?
00:40:51
You know, how... Am I gonna make it
00:40:53
all the way up at? They're trying and
00:40:54
draws. Who cares? There's chains on the thing.
00:40:56
Who cares. But so I I think this
00:40:58
pushes away all those things. And right. Gives
00:41:00
you a moment an island where you can
00:41:03
just... Climb. You can just be. Right? And
00:41:05
so I I think that may be 1
00:41:07
of the reasons this this technique works pretty
00:41:10
darn well. Also, and and I like how
00:41:12
you were talking about how your own training
00:41:14
in this ebb and flows and you have
00:41:16
to go back to it and everything else
00:41:17
because, you know, I'm acting like I am...
00:41:20
You know, this wise person that knows about
00:41:22
this and and doesn't do it, but, of
00:41:23
course, like, there's...
00:41:25
Like, just the other day, someone was like,
00:41:27
well, why don't you try this route? And
00:41:29
I was like. That's like the scene right
00:41:31
there, And I just don't like climbing in
00:41:33
that zone where it's like the total
00:41:36
scene where... You know, and we can think...
00:41:38
I... We don't need to keep referencing
00:41:40
specific things to rifle because it happens on
00:41:43
any sport climbing area,
00:41:45
there's a... Or, you know, or any area.
00:41:47
Really, there's, like, these places where everybody's banging
00:41:49
it out, and it's like a big group
00:41:51
and I tend to avoid those places.
00:41:54
But it seems like if I had, like,
00:41:56
a very solid,
00:41:57
you know, ability of what you're talking about,
00:42:00
I could walk into those. Those places and
00:42:02
and maybe become an island and and climb
00:42:05
where all the banter going on and all
00:42:06
the blah blah blah, all the
00:42:08
Do you know what I mean? Like, maybe
00:42:10
I could become this person if I if
00:42:12
I was a better had a better pre
00:42:14
climb ritual, but it's hard. You could guarantee
00:42:16
be awesome. Be true to what you wanna
00:42:18
do. Right. And be really clear. It's like,
00:42:21
I was just... I was just editing an
00:42:23
interview I had with Mark on for the
00:42:24
podcast, and 1 of his ism is if
00:42:28
it ain't fun and ain't done.
00:42:30
And you just gotta... Do I wanna do
00:42:32
that? Like, truthfully. And do do I just
00:42:34
wanna be around that many people. And that's
00:42:37
outside of your your own worrying about what
00:42:40
they're gonna think? There could just be a
00:42:42
proximity. Like, I just don't like the noise
00:42:44
and don't like the chatter. There's other places
00:42:45
to go. So Yeah. Now if there a
00:42:48
root that that you really wanted to do
00:42:49
and that crowd we're keeping you away.
00:42:52
That's
00:42:53
the time when it's like, okay. I probably...
00:42:56
I really wanna do that, but I'm being
00:42:58
held back.
00:42:59
Mh. Buy this this thing that I know
00:43:01
I can work on. Well, it might be
00:43:03
worth working on. Oh, let's move on to
00:43:05
things going on in your life and and
00:43:08
again, you've you've just mentioned how you you've
00:43:10
sort of come back to vertical mind and
00:43:13
opened up the can worms again as it
00:43:15
were.
00:43:16
You wrote me something that said that you've
00:43:18
done a couple days c coaching with Hazel
00:43:21
and working on an actual kind of pilot
00:43:23
to I don't know some type of series.
00:43:25
I don't know where where it's going to
00:43:27
appear or what it's going be. So...
00:43:29
And and she's, you know, it's funny because
00:43:31
she's... She's occupied this space in the last
00:43:34
couple years and become, you know, 1 of
00:43:36
these go to coaches on these very issues
00:43:39
again that that you started bringing up 10
00:43:41
years ago. So it's a a as a
00:43:43
meeting of the minds to to kinda use
00:43:45
a pun.
00:43:47
So tell me about that, tell tells us
00:43:48
about this this thing and and your excitement
00:43:51
around
00:43:52
whatever's is going on with the the what
00:43:54
you call the Doc series. So over the
00:43:56
past, I would say 2 or 3 years,
00:43:58
it's been a little weird. I've been at
00:44:00
the... Craig, people would come up to me
00:44:02
and like, oh,
00:44:04
you know, I had people quote vertical line
00:44:05
at the Craig. 1 person was like, oh,
00:44:07
either follow I won't, and I had... I
00:44:09
was like,
00:44:10
She says, I learned that for vertical mind.
00:44:12
And I was like are you kidding me?
00:44:14
So there's been some energy around it and
00:44:16
it's kinda, I mean, like wow. This is
00:44:17
really... You know, there's there's actually a lot
00:44:19
of them out there now because we got
00:44:20
the audiobook and the Kindle it's kinda gone
00:44:23
out there. And, I... Wow I have known
00:44:25
this guy, Jay Jacob code for about over
00:44:28
10 years before I even wrote vertical mind,
00:44:30
and I I knew him when I were
00:44:32
up my first book, and he was... Into
00:44:34
websites and stuff. And we've kinda stayed in
00:44:35
contact. Well, 1 day he calls me up,
00:44:38
and this was last year and early last
00:44:40
year and calls me up and says You
00:44:42
know, Don, I was in a spa
00:44:45
in crest stone,
00:44:47
and there was a guy in there who
00:44:49
was a climber. And he told me he
00:44:50
and his wife had come to climb.
00:44:52
Than that area.
00:44:53
And so I said, hey, I know. He's
00:44:55
she's said, hey, I know a climber. And
00:44:57
in fact, he wrote a book vertical a
00:44:58
mine and the guy goes, I love that
00:44:59
book. Oh my god. And so Jay phones
00:45:02
me up and he he's trying to pitch
00:45:04
me on doing a show because he's become
00:45:06
a fan of things on outside Tv and
00:45:08
he's he was off... Repaired, like, trying to
00:45:09
sell me on doing this thing, And I
00:45:10
was like, after, like, 5 minutes. I was
00:45:12
like, no, it sounds like, a great idea.
00:45:14
Let's do it. So I'd already kind of
00:45:16
been prime to, hey, there's a lot of
00:45:17
energy around this right now. The climb community
00:45:19
is growing really quickly and people are curious
00:45:22
about it. So we kinda of put our
00:45:24
heads together and we came up with this
00:45:26
definition around a Doc series, and the the
00:45:28
format would be, I'd be the host and
00:45:30
we'd have other experts like Hazel on the
00:45:33
topic of flow.
00:45:35
I talked to Katie Brown about being the
00:45:38
cause for for fear of failure. And so
00:45:40
some of these other climber who
00:45:43
kind of our experts in their own right.
00:45:45
I... I'm teaming up with them, and we
00:45:47
have a couple of... We call them guest
00:45:49
climber, so non famous non experts, they come
00:45:52
and we spend a couple of days, like
00:45:54
coaching them in whatever the topic is. You
00:45:56
know, like, I did this thing with Hazel.
00:45:58
We went out to Moa, and we coach
00:45:59
a couple climber about flow. Who were people
00:46:01
who are trying to find more flow in
00:46:03
their climbing.
00:46:04
Fantastic. Hey
00:46:06
like the nicest person.
00:46:08
Geez great. Jeez really, really sweet. Really, really
00:46:12
smart.
00:46:13
We did... We had a great time coaching
00:46:15
together. You know, we we put together this
00:46:16
pilot... We haven't edited it yet. That's kind
00:46:19
of on on my to do list of
00:46:21
get that done, because it's... You know, I
00:46:24
sit back and I I watch it. It
00:46:25
was... 1 of the women wanted to wanted
00:46:27
to start project.
00:46:29
Okay. So she had been climbing, like, 11:11
00:46:31
plus in Moa.
00:46:33
And she really wanna start project 12. That
00:46:35
she just hadn't, and she and she had
00:46:37
some...
00:46:38
Some friction in doing so. So Hazel and
00:46:40
I spent some time coaching her on how
00:46:43
to do that. It was interesting trying to
00:46:44
apply flow to pro
00:46:47
because they... You know, that they're not usually
00:46:49
seen this way. So he's and lie I
00:46:51
both were able to learn ourselves a lot
00:46:53
and shed some light onto
00:46:55
how flow can be found.
00:46:57
In project projecting and how it applies. So
00:46:59
we just had a fantastic time. And I
00:47:01
just gotta know from this Carolyn woman she
00:47:03
just sent this climb desert shield that we
00:47:04
helped her to work on back.
00:47:06
Yeah. So she's like, hey, By the way,
00:47:09
I went to bed desert shield I was
00:47:10
thinking all the things that you and Da
00:47:12
coach me on. And I just sent it.
00:47:14
I was like, oh my goodness. How cool
00:47:15
man. That's not that's not like some, like,
00:47:18
like, Dink Lil sport climb. Right, that's like
00:47:21
a big proud
00:47:22
Indian Creek desert climb. Yeah.
00:47:25
And it's also not like, just classic
00:47:28
straightforward plugging cams in and go and there's,
00:47:30
like, there's climate in there. This was also
00:47:32
deep congratulate, Carol and his eyes. Then? Weird
00:47:35
turnaround,
00:47:36
Bomb basing and then Oh, yeah. Totally. Yeah.
00:47:39
Yeah. I'm little gear right there. Little gear.
00:47:41
Yeah. Ben Yeah. Totally. That's awesome. So Carolyn
00:47:44
is that what you said her name is.
00:47:45
Yeah. Carolyn. Congratulations, Caroline, if you're listening. Yeah
00:47:48
Caroline.
00:47:49
I was...
00:47:50
1 of the proudest roots in the Creek.
00:47:52
Yeah. What I mean, where it sits and
00:47:54
in that upper d,
00:47:57
ridiculous. Nice job. Roots So that that in
00:48:00
my inbox about a month or so ago,
00:48:01
and I just brought the go. Biggest smile
00:48:03
at my face. So that... And that's what
00:48:05
we're hoping to do. We're hoping to bring
00:48:06
some expertise. So and share with people some
00:48:09
some coaching in this doc series. So we
00:48:12
did the pilot. Right now, we're in the
00:48:14
process of looking for,
00:48:16
distribution like, we've been talking to a bunch
00:48:18
of distribution, try to trying to get the
00:48:20
money to produce the rest of the things.
00:48:22
So now
00:48:23
it's just 1 in that part of the
00:48:24
journey. I was like, okay. We're... We have
00:48:27
this pilot, and I I just decided to
00:48:30
start a podcast. So the the doc series
00:48:32
is tunnel inside the vertical mind.
00:48:34
And the podcast is inside the vertical mind.
00:48:36
And so 1 of the things
00:48:38
I wanna do with the podcast is I
00:48:40
wanna... Talk about things that are, like, the
00:48:43
mental and social aspects of declining. I I...
00:48:45
I'm really not focused on who's done the
00:48:48
hardest as the newest d 16 or you
00:48:50
know, who's done the hardest things. I wanna...
00:48:53
I'm more interested in things like how
00:48:56
how to bring more fun to your climbing.
00:48:58
You know, what to do after you're pregnant
00:49:00
for women. After you're pregnant, how to get
00:49:02
back in into climbing in that situation. So
00:49:04
bringing people with different experiences,
00:49:07
to the podcast,
00:49:08
that's kinda... That's kinda what I what I
00:49:10
wanna do. So I done a few episodes,
00:49:11
and I'm very excited about it.
00:49:14
Is it out? I mean, people are lit...
00:49:16
Your Yeah put put this 1 out? Yeah.
00:49:18
I have got 3 episodes out there. I
00:49:20
just finished editing along with Mark K. We
00:49:22
talked about as Ism.
00:49:24
Is little kinda qui sayings that are that
00:49:27
are kinda fun. And I'm I'm trying to
00:49:28
get a couple episodes done a month. 1
00:49:30
of the things that I kind of think
00:49:32
about with you as this as this... And,
00:49:35
you know, you're not you're not, like, technically
00:49:38
coaching you said anymore. But but all this
00:49:40
stuff is about
00:49:41
you know, is about sort of a broad
00:49:43
idea of of coaching of of getting people
00:49:46
past these hurdles
00:49:48
through through your knowledge and what you know
00:49:50
in your experience. And, you know, in coaching
00:49:52
are this idea of of people doing this
00:49:56
is is also kind of relatively new. I
00:49:59
mean, you know, if you went back 20
00:50:01
years ago, who would we even talk about,
00:50:02
like, Who Newman? Like, you know, or John
00:50:05
Long through his, like, you know, you go
00:50:07
back even further through his, like, how to
00:50:09
rock climb
00:50:10
series if year old enough to to probably
00:50:13
have,
00:50:13
devoured those.
00:50:15
And and, you know, but it it this
00:50:17
whole
00:50:18
proliferation of it is is very new and
00:50:19
it's because we have this this format, this
00:50:22
online format to be able to do it,
00:50:23
which has also grown in use and popularity
00:50:26
not... Hasn't been around that long. The idea
00:50:28
of skype was the
00:50:30
kind of verb with it, but there's 80
00:50:32
platforms to do it now. So that's been
00:50:34
part of it. But 1 of the things
00:50:36
I've enjoyed or I enjoyed when you came
00:50:38
out with vertical mind and talking to you
00:50:40
last time is that,
00:50:41
you know, you aren't no offense and hope,
00:50:44
I can't... I wanna offend you with this.
00:50:45
But, you know, it's like, you're not a
00:50:46
hot shit
00:50:47
top of the form climber, you know, and
00:50:50
and you you sort of never really were,
00:50:53
you know,
00:50:54
And and so it's like,
00:50:57
that perspective, I think, sometimes I'm a little
00:51:00
suspicious and of, like, these top end climber
00:51:03
that are gonna teach some you know, someone
00:51:05
to break through from 05:10 to 05:11. Like,
00:51:07
you... Do you even remember what that was
00:51:09
like? Like, has... Was that ever a thing
00:51:11
for you? So so many of,
00:51:13
top end climber. You know, they they basically
00:51:15
came out of the womb climbing pretty darn
00:51:17
hard or pretty immediately.
00:51:20
And I think Hazel is someone who's who's
00:51:22
able to to do that in my mind,
00:51:24
she's able to put herself empathetic in in
00:51:27
the shoes of of someone that's not nearly
00:51:29
as...
00:51:30
Accomplish this she is, but I don't think
00:51:32
all coaches are. And so do you... Is
00:51:35
that something that you're you actively think about
00:51:37
this idea of, being empathetic to those who,
00:51:40
you know, went through something... Or... Or, sorry.
00:51:43
Those who are going through something that you
00:51:44
went through
00:51:46
a long, long time ago. Again, no offense
00:51:48
style... No. Not No. I quite the same
00:51:50
never age wise never been that part of
00:51:52
a climber, you know, and it end. But
00:51:54
I'm extremely enthusiastic.
00:51:56
I've loved climbing for 33 years now and
00:51:59
there's no end in sight, and we all
00:52:01
have our talents. Right? 1 of my talents
00:52:03
isn't necessarily climbing. I actually do have a
00:52:05
pretty good talent about taping taking complex things
00:52:08
and making them sound simple. And so that's
00:52:11
what I you know, 1 of my goals
00:52:13
in vertical mind was to make what is
00:52:15
a very complex subject and actually this books
00:52:17
written, you can barely read because the vocabulary
00:52:19
is so difficult to get through. But through
00:52:21
telling of the stories and a little bit
00:52:23
of science and a little bit of practical,
00:52:25
try to make it consumable for people. And
00:52:27
so that's 1 of the things I enjoy.
00:52:29
And
00:52:30
yeah. I I feel like people who aren't.
00:52:34
In fact, I would say the people that
00:52:36
don't wanna do my workshops to stuff are
00:52:39
the harder climber.
00:52:41
Sure. You know? It's like, I know way
00:52:43
more than that. I, you know, I but
00:52:45
it's the people who are, like, wow. I
00:52:47
think I could really learn from this. You
00:52:48
know? Because I I mean I... On that
00:52:50
on, like, 13 something.
00:52:52
So... And I didn't climb in for...
00:52:54
A long time.
00:52:56
I've taken lots of falls.
00:52:57
So,
00:52:58
you know, that's that's I think the people
00:53:01
of the more
00:53:02
everyday climber who maybe the climb up to
00:53:04
10 or 11 kind of really see what
00:53:06
I do and they're... They they like it,
00:53:08
and they can relate to me. Then I
00:53:09
keep things fun. Like, my workshops are flipping
00:53:11
fun. That's 1 of my objectives. If you
00:53:13
ain't have fun it and getting done.
00:53:15
Well, the thing too is that, you know,
00:53:18
I've always noticed.
00:53:19
Is that you're... You what you just described
00:53:21
and and if you wanted to break through
00:53:23
from, like, you know, 11 to 12. Like,
00:53:26
that is...
00:53:27
Has traditionally been this very big hurdle. And
00:53:30
and,
00:53:31
you know, I think it's easy to think
00:53:33
that because of the way we consume climbing
00:53:36
media that that 05:12 is not hard anymore,
00:53:40
because of with the way people climb, you
00:53:41
know, it seems like, again, they they they
00:53:44
come out of the womb climbing much much
00:53:46
harder than that. But, our friend,
00:53:48
or my friend, I don't know if you're
00:53:50
friends with them. I think you know, Andrew
00:53:51
Bi at.
00:53:52
You know, we joke because he he... 1
00:53:55
of his long lost books that he wrote
00:53:57
that's out of print or whatever was, you
00:53:59
know, how to climb 05:12 or... You know,
00:54:01
it had this really crazy long title about
00:54:03
how basically to go from 11 to 12.
00:54:06
I feel like that's still this great big
00:54:08
hurdle, you know, in that and that people
00:54:11
come to this
00:54:12
roadblock right there,
00:54:14
especially if you're somewhat casual about your climbing
00:54:16
if you have a job in a life
00:54:18
and it you know, kids and all those
00:54:19
sorts of things. And 5 5 tens that
00:54:21
way for a lot of people. People who
00:54:23
aren't necessarily, you know, extremely fit to begin
00:54:26
with. And we see that a a lot
00:54:28
more in the gym of these days.
00:54:29
You know? You you could walk in any
00:54:32
gem. There's a whole section of people who...
00:54:35
So They're doing it for exercise. They're doing
00:54:36
for the social part, they probably will never
00:54:39
plan fight well. If you gotta do some
00:54:41
specialized training. Right? Some specialized training like, our
00:54:44
our fingers hanging out of small holes like
00:54:46
that. I'm experiencing that right now. I haven't...
00:54:49
Let's see Last year. I I made a
00:54:50
pretty good run at. Trying to climb harder,
00:54:52
but then I I got some elbow problem
00:54:54
in the fall, then I got a horrible
00:54:56
flu. And so now I'm kinda getting back
00:54:59
my crew strength and it. Did easy? Like,
00:55:01
it takes... That's a very specialized strength. So,
00:55:04
yeah, let's talk about that then where, you
00:55:07
know, you're climbing and everyone's climbing.
00:55:09
You know, ebb and flows and it changes
00:55:12
meaning and it and you change motivations or
00:55:14
everything else. You are retired. I... That's happened
00:55:17
since you wrote the book that, can free
00:55:19
up time, for some people, doesn't. But yeah.
00:55:22
Where where's rock climbing for you, and what
00:55:25
are your own personal goals
00:55:27
again, as we face aging and and things
00:55:29
like that. Yeah. I've never been more enthusiastic.
00:55:33
I climbed 3 days a week, and it's
00:55:35
not my time.
00:55:36
I could... I've got time to climb more,
00:55:39
but I'm 61.
00:55:41
It's my body. I me, I need that
00:55:42
amount of recovery.
00:55:44
And just to just to feel good and
00:55:46
stay healthy. So last year, I was trying
00:55:48
to climb a little harder. You know, I
00:55:50
I wanted to get up to, like, 12.
00:55:52
Plus 13 minus.
00:55:54
And I was I was really getting there.
00:55:56
I was up to, like, 12 plus and
00:55:58
when I got this elbow thing,
00:56:00
so it can it can happen. You just
00:56:02
gotta really apply yourself.
00:56:04
This year, we're gonna be doing some traveling.
00:56:06
So I just wanna get in that's that
00:56:09
confidence level
00:56:11
on any terrain where I could just walk
00:56:13
up to... In any climbing area, just walk
00:56:15
up to things that look inspiring to me
00:56:17
and are in a a reasonable great range
00:56:19
and just go up and and have fun
00:56:20
and, you know, be able to outside and
00:56:23
come close. So that's kind of my my
00:56:25
near term goal is that general overall fitness
00:56:28
level
00:56:29
to kinda be able to do that. And
00:56:31
do other climber that are aging Do you
00:56:34
see a lot of people looking at you
00:56:35
and and wanting to kinda
00:56:37
get your secrets?
00:56:39
Is that, like, a demographic that you feel
00:56:41
like approaches you quite a bit on this
00:56:42
or not? Yeah. I mean, I've got a
00:56:44
lot of people on Facebook who some of
00:56:46
them might met some might haven't met. And
00:56:49
there's a lot of us out there, you
00:56:50
know, 50 plus. Oh who are in the
00:56:53
game. We wanna stay in the game.
00:56:55
It's
00:56:57
you know, and those who are pretty successful
00:56:59
at it. The other people want know what
00:57:01
they're doing. Right? And so here's 1... I'll
00:57:04
share with you,
00:57:05
1 thing I've learned that's relatively new. I
00:57:08
I would say I've learned this in the
00:57:09
past 567
00:57:10
years
00:57:11
that
00:57:12
I used to pretty much be able to
00:57:14
eat and drink whatever I wanted to.
00:57:16
And I just did enough
00:57:19
climbing or whatever that I I could always
00:57:22
maintain, like, a pretty good pretty good level
00:57:24
of fitness and my clothes fit and everything.
00:57:27
And I've just found that I have to
00:57:29
pay more attention to that now and the
00:57:31
past couple years I find when I stopped
00:57:33
drinking alcohol that all of a sudden, I
00:57:36
start shedding belly fat that's been stubborn for
00:57:39
me, like,
00:57:40
I could exercise so while I'm blue the
00:57:42
face. I can watch what I eat till
00:57:43
I'm blue the face.
00:57:45
And I wanna I wanna have an expert
00:57:46
on that on my podcast because I wanna
00:57:48
I wanna learn about that. I have a
00:57:50
feeling. There's some
00:57:51
some metabolic things in the high sugars and
00:57:54
everything that are involved in that that it...
00:57:56
Like, I I stop and it just... I
00:57:59
start melting away. So
00:58:01
that has been kind of a secret for
00:58:03
me. That's really been super helpful. And and
00:58:05
I'm also finding that
00:58:07
When I do that, my motivation increases, my
00:58:10
anxiety goes down. And so I I think
00:58:12
there's for me that that really has been
00:58:15
helpful. Was this something that was tricky? I
00:58:17
mean, is it a part of your life?
00:58:18
I mean, not not as far as like,
00:58:20
you know, a problem, but, like, you know,
00:58:21
No. It's socially and everything else? My wife
00:58:23
and I would do it Right. Friday and
00:58:25
Friday night Date and night I get a
00:58:26
ball line and Have a cocktail whatever. And
00:58:29
so that's been challenging
00:58:31
to navigate.
00:58:33
Right? But I think
00:58:35
once you start and you see... I I
00:58:37
just see what happens. And I'm like, well,
00:58:39
okay. I wanna get there.
00:58:41
And
00:58:42
by the way, it's really hard to get
00:58:43
there any other way. And so,
00:58:45
you know, for a month, 2 months, 3
00:58:47
months
00:58:48
make the make the change. And
00:58:50
it's it's just remarkable for me. So I
00:58:52
wanna learn more about that, because I... I
00:58:54
wish thought calories is a calorie. Right?
00:58:57
Alright. But I think there's something more subtle
00:58:59
in there. So I wanna... I'm gonna learn
00:59:00
a little bit more about that. Well, I
00:59:02
mean, I think all the research is showing
00:59:03
just it's... Yeah. I mean, it's it's poison.
00:59:06
Yeah. I you're just poisoning yourself on all
00:59:08
different levels. And like it, you know, it
00:59:11
turns out that whole a glass of wine
00:59:13
thing a day was was completely bullshit and
00:59:15
was basically funded by the all wine industry.
00:59:19
You know. So it... Yeah. It's kind of
00:59:21
interesting that, like, you know, the health benefits
00:59:23
will go away beyond whether or not you
00:59:25
can Climb 13 a again or not, you
00:59:27
know. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. No. So, again, it's
00:59:31
it's I look at... I look at where
00:59:32
where I wanna be. I wanna be as
00:59:34
health. As I can. I wanna continue to
00:59:36
do what I want as long as possible
00:59:38
wanna avoid any of the nasty things. Here's
00:59:40
some other things is you get your sixties.
00:59:42
You start looking around. You start you rapidly
00:59:44
people around you or your age starting to
00:59:46
come down with some things that are hard.
00:59:48
Mh. You know, life changing medical things.
00:59:51
And so you start
00:59:53
getting a little more conscious of my actions,
00:59:57
like, maybe I should try harder, you know,
00:59:59
as some things. Like, getting getting the right
01:00:02
times exercise, maybe
01:00:04
watching more how I would eat, Maybe being
01:00:06
a little more careful with injury prevention. You
01:00:08
know, maybe stretching more, as so it that...
01:00:11
That's kind been
01:00:13
kind of a wave for me
01:00:15
in the last couple of years. And so
01:00:17
it's it's... It's been something I'm thinking a
01:00:19
lot about. Yeah. It's fascinating too with the
01:00:22
alcoholic thing about how, you know, in in
01:00:24
this show is part of it, You know,
01:00:25
we joke around about it all the time,
01:00:27
and you know, had a whiskey sponsor, and,
01:00:29
you know, we started this podcast. We're talking
01:00:31
about, you know, your your buddy's margarita at
01:00:33
post climbing. It's such this It really is,
01:00:36
at least with outdoor climbing, it really is
01:00:38
kind of in the fiber, you know,
01:00:41
that kind of like, hanging out drinking beers
01:00:43
after climbing sort of thing is I mean
01:00:45
rifle. It's it's almost, you know, it's almost
01:00:48
like a institutional thing you have to do
01:00:50
when you're there. And in a weird way.
01:00:51
And,
01:00:52
it's... So it's kinda fascinating, like, look at
01:00:54
it and be like, well, Jeez, it's it's
01:00:56
completely detrimental to what our pursuit is But
01:00:59
but it's also, like, back to having fun.
01:01:01
It's also fun. It's. I'm moderated.
01:01:03
Drink peers friends after after a after a
01:01:06
day of climbing kinda. And vertical mind.
01:01:08
1 of the things was Margarita. Right? We
01:01:10
Jeff and I sit around drinking Margarita so...
01:01:12
Right and I I would, you know, I
01:01:14
would not wanna do that for the world.
01:01:16
It's just when I when I look at
01:01:18
what my objectives are and what my challenges
01:01:21
are,
01:01:22
how just changing 1 thing can make a
01:01:24
big difference sometimes. And just got yourself what
01:01:27
it what I wanna do? So how do
01:01:29
people figure out when this
01:01:31
this maybe Doc series is coming out if
01:01:34
it does and and things like that? Like,
01:01:36
how do they connect with you don? So
01:01:38
probably best thing to do is
01:01:41
you can follow inside the vertical mine podcast
01:01:43
because I'll I'll be talking a lot about.
01:01:45
That. That's on Spotify, Apple podcast,
01:01:48
Youtube music. All the things. Yep. Or
01:01:51
you can go to vertical mine dot show.
01:01:54
Is a website where we'll be doing updates
01:01:56
on the progress,
01:01:57
progress for that. Cool. Fossil on Instagram
01:02:01
at inside the vertical mine.
01:02:03
Okay. Cool. Awesome, Don. Well, thanks for coming
01:02:05
back on the show. That we miss anything?
01:02:08
No. No Absolutely. I wanna congratulate again on
01:02:10
01:02:12
is it...
01:02:13
No. I think we're at 84
01:02:15
sure...
01:02:17
I think that's the 1 I just posted.
01:02:18
So... Yeah. They just pile up, like... Fucking
01:02:21
driftwood, man. Like So... Yeah. I can't keep
01:02:24
up with how many there are 10:10 years
01:02:25
ago. We went from episode 61. Now we're
01:02:27
here at 2 80 something.
01:02:29
So there was in the mint mint... In
01:02:31
the meantime, there was a normal baby, which
01:02:33
is now a normal toddler. I would imagine.
01:02:36
Yeah. No. No. He's 8. If a normal.
01:02:38
8 year old. So a lot has happened
01:02:41
in 10 years. And I I bought 2
01:02:43
houses. Bought 1 sold 1 bought another 1.
01:02:46
Got married. I got married in there.
01:02:49
You yeah, I had a kid.
01:02:51
Yeah. It's kinda wild that it's it's just
01:02:54
marches is on.
01:02:55
It it it blows my mind. I'm sure,
01:02:57
like, the... Like, you've been talking about on
01:02:59
this podcast the this kinda
01:03:01
continued interest and and people coming out of
01:03:04
the blue even 10 years after your book
01:03:06
was written and is it's just kind of
01:03:08
it's fun and and
01:03:10
yeah, it it makes you feel like he...
01:03:12
You did something good. Yeah. And you too.
01:03:14
You're you're doing great. Things for the climbing
01:03:15
community. So appreciate how you doing and it's
01:03:17
been absolute fun catching up after after 10
01:03:20
years.
01:03:22
Thanks
01:03:37
Alright. Folks. Thanks for listening Thanks Don for
01:03:40
coming back on the show,
01:03:42
and thanks for being there 10 years ago
01:03:44
when people were pretty skeptical about what I
01:03:46
was up to. Thanks you can find out
01:03:48
more about the whole vertical mine seen.
01:03:51
The things going on,
01:03:53
get the book. Whatever you wanna do, follow
01:03:56
Don in the vertical mind at inside the
01:03:58
vertical mind over there at Instagram. That's the
01:04:01
best launching point.
01:04:03
Okay. Gonna load this 1
01:04:05
spit it out there and head the lander.
01:04:07
So Hope I see you up there, and,
01:04:09
of course, check your knots.
01:04:30
Yeah So what's your name? John Mid.
01:04:32
And
01:04:33
what do you do?
01:04:34
Well, right now, I'm back into the cartilage
01:04:37
edge design business.
01:04:38
I've actually... Just in the last 6 months.
01:04:40
I've been working on this new portal edge.
01:04:43
I used to do that back in the,
01:04:45
eighties and nineties. And those were used big
01:04:47
wall climber all over the world to do
01:04:49
new routes. Big walls are walls that are
01:04:52
maybe 300 to 1500 meters high, by and
01:04:55
there big rock faces that you can't really
01:04:57
climb in a day because they're too technical
01:04:59
and too big. So portal edge is something
01:05:01
that you can use to sleep, for those
01:05:04
nights that you're up on the wall.
01:05:06
19 92, I climbed Great Triangle tower, which
01:05:09
is a probably the biggest big wall of
01:05:11
the world for in Pakistan in the care
01:05:13
quorum. And we we climbed the steepest and
01:05:16
biggest phase of that,
01:05:18
in 18 days. We spent 15 days climbing
01:05:20
up. And 3 days to descending the face.