Enormocast 286: Didier Berthod – Facing the World (Part 1)

[00:00:00] You are listening to The Enormocast.

[00:00:04] Now it's time for my biannual reminder to put your brain in a

[00:00:08] bucket, a climbing helmet that is. All the old reasons to not

[00:00:12] wear a helmet even sport climbing are gone. Too heavy?

[00:00:15] Not much heavier than that summertime wool beanie bro. Too

[00:00:19] hot? Well, the thought of brain surgery should really make you

[00:00:22] sweat. Too lame? You're lame. As I've grown older, I've heard of

[00:00:29] too many injuries that could have been prevented with a

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[00:01:22] Are you out of balance? Do you slip and slide through your

[00:01:25] climbs like a moist and mucilaginous slug? Frankly, do

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[00:01:53] thought that training simply involved crushing King Cobra

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[00:02:58] your life, or at least your footwork, which is kind of the

[00:03:02] same thing.

[00:03:05] Listen, we're playing a 10 playing here doing the normal

[00:03:10] dome whatever it is. It's terrific. Oh yeah.

[00:03:12] Thanks.

[00:03:18] The hell are you doing?

[00:03:21] I couldn't sleep. I'm checking the ropes. There was a frayed

[00:03:26] end on your rope and I'm cutting it out.

[00:03:44] Today's show is brought to you by Black Diamond Equipment, La

[00:03:47] Sportiva and with support from Maxim Ropes. Maxim has been

[00:03:51] keeping the normal cast off the deck since 2012. And now we can

[00:03:56] also thank the chill folks at Yeti. And don't forget our

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[00:04:26] Hello and welcome to the normal cast. This is your host Chris

[00:04:28] It is June 3rd 2024 about 12pm here in Colorado. And this is

[00:04:36] episode 286 of the normal cast a conversation with the crack

[00:04:41] master the kind of long lost crack master DDA Bartow. Bartow

[00:04:47] Bartow. I don't think he said the D. I listened to him say it

[00:04:50] myself and I can't quite figure it out. He speaks French among

[00:04:54] other languages. So we'll just go with DDA Bartow. And man,

[00:04:59] I've been waiting for this one since the normal cast started. As

[00:05:03] is often the case on the normal cast DDA and I go way back. We

[00:05:07] actually climbed together in Indian Creek circa 2006 or so I

[00:05:12] think. Yeah, we had a good few weeks out there living in the

[00:05:16] dirt, climbing together looking for first ascents. And through

[00:05:19] combined efforts, we actually put up sort of a little famous route

[00:05:23] out in Indian Creek called learning to fly. At the time it

[00:05:25] was one of the hardest routes out there, or at least amongst

[00:05:29] the top few. I found it put the anchor on it couldn't do it.

[00:05:33] Handed it off to DDA he fired it got some press out of it. We

[00:05:38] also climbed a bunch of other stuff together out there. You

[00:05:41] know what I just remembered who else was out there at that time?

[00:05:45] A very young, fresh faced Will Stanhope and Jason Kruk they were

[00:05:51] like 17 and 18 respectively on a road trip. I think we talked

[00:05:55] about it in Will's episode anyway, go back to check that

[00:05:57] out. I don't know if we brought it up in Jason's good episodes

[00:05:59] both of those. All right. Anyway, not long after that DDA

[00:06:04] disappeared. Well, he's reemerged. If you've been

[00:06:07] watching the news he did Cobra crack, which people noted that

[00:06:12] it was a couple decades practically between him trying

[00:06:15] to do the first ascent of Cobra and then finally doing it. Many

[00:06:19] of the media posts mentioned him sort of disappearing for a

[00:06:22] few years, 10 years, 13 years, 15 years, I've seen all different

[00:06:26] numbers. People are happy for DDA but the truth is, is the

[00:06:30] story is so much deeper than that. So much more complicated,

[00:06:34] so much more interesting. What happened to DDA, the choices

[00:06:38] DDA made between trying the Cobra and doing the Cobra is

[00:06:43] just one of the wildest stories I've heard in climbing. And we

[00:06:47] got it all here today, two and a half hours split up into two

[00:06:51] episodes with DDA going super hard on this one. It was kind of

[00:06:56] a requirement. We've been talking about doing it for a

[00:06:58] while. And finally, I was like, man, let's do this thing. Are

[00:07:02] you going to go for it? And he said, Yeah, it's time for me to

[00:07:05] go for it and tell this story. A sensitive story, a story that

[00:07:10] might make you a little bit angry at times, but an ongoing

[00:07:14] redemption arc, in my opinion. So yeah, let's get to it. I'm

[00:07:18] going to put these out in two pieces, I think because we need

[00:07:21] a break. They're very heavy, very intense. And it's nice to

[00:07:26] have a little break around the one and a half hour mark. And

[00:07:32] I'll put them out subsequently pretty quickly together so you

[00:07:35] can get right to it and find out how the story doesn't end but

[00:07:39] where we are at this moment. All right, enough teasing. I'm

[00:07:43] teasing you about this story. Let's get to Didier Bartholdt.

[00:07:47] And also I'd like to officially now welcome Yeti back to the

[00:07:51] team here at the Anormalcast.

[00:07:56] All right, folks, get ready. Our climbers been out all day.

[00:08:01] Whether they summited or plummeted, they're gonna need a

[00:08:04] nice cold beer to either celebrate or drown their

[00:08:07] sorrows.

[00:08:08] Excusez-moi, what if they don't drink as the alcohol?

[00:08:11] What are you talking about, LeCroix? Post climate beers is a

[00:08:14] tradition as old as Jim Donini's polypro undies.

[00:08:18] Ecoutez-moi, je m'appelle LeCroix.

[00:08:21] LeCroix? Aren't you from Wisconsin, boy?

[00:08:24] Wait, who told you that?

[00:08:26] You never mind. Topo Chico, you back there?

[00:08:29] Je suis aqui, manito.

[00:08:30] Mountain Dew. Keep it down. You're gonna wake up old Red Bull

[00:08:35] over there. Once that insufferable SOB gets started,

[00:08:39] there ain't no shutting him up.

[00:08:41] I hate that guy.

[00:08:42] Bless his heart.

[00:08:43] Well, them climbers want a boozy libation like me or just

[00:08:47] refreshing clean living effervescence.

[00:08:49] Another thing we can all agree on is this Yeti Tundra cooler

[00:08:53] is keeping us colder than a polar bear's toenails.

[00:08:56] Say, I's cold.

[00:08:58] Sturdier than a three bolt quad anchor backed up with a pink

[00:09:01] tri-cam. A Yeti Tundra cooler will outlast just about any gear

[00:09:05] in a climber's kit.

[00:09:07] Hell, that can of V8 over there has been rattling around in

[00:09:10] here for years.

[00:09:12] Somebody kill me.

[00:09:14] So before some of us get popped and swilled, just remember one

[00:09:18] thing. Without this Yeti Tundra cooler, we'd all be sloshed

[00:09:22] around in bath warm broccoli cheese water by now.

[00:09:26] So if climbers know what's what, they'll check out all the sizes

[00:09:29] of the Yeti Tundra cooler at Yeti.com or their favorite

[00:09:33] outdoor retailer.

[00:09:34] And let Yeti finish every best day ever with cold drinks and

[00:09:40] high fives.

[00:09:44] I'm just like at this huge smile just seeing you on the

[00:09:55] screen.

[00:09:55] So I did.

[00:09:56] Yeah.

[00:09:58] So it was really kind of a special time in my life, too,

[00:10:01] when we met.

[00:10:02] So yeah, let's get into that.

[00:10:05] Actually, we wouldn't start.

[00:10:07] I'd love to learn more about you, actually, because when I

[00:10:10] met you, no idea where you were.

[00:10:13] And to be also like from what I recall, I mean, people coming

[00:10:18] to me and I have a cool crack.

[00:10:21] I open something.

[00:10:22] It was not the first time.

[00:10:25] And usually it was just like five, some kind of 511 climbers

[00:10:28] who just find some kind of line and want to share me.

[00:10:32] And I just put you in that box, actually.

[00:10:34] Well, you know, this is I'm in 2005, 2006.

[00:10:41] I didn't actually look up a first descent of that learning

[00:10:45] to fly, which is what you're talking about.

[00:10:46] But yeah, I mean, I wrote this story about it.

[00:10:49] People can still look up.

[00:10:50] That was partially just comedy.

[00:10:53] But it was in a day like I hit this on the show all the time,

[00:10:59] like pre Internet, like I'm some old person.

[00:11:01] I mean, the Internet existed, but it was definitely pre social

[00:11:05] media. And so it's not like we all knew who everybody was.

[00:11:09] And I was just another climber.

[00:11:11] We were camped out on the Bridger Jack Road.

[00:11:14] It was long enough ago that you could still camp out right there

[00:11:17] above the ranch.

[00:11:18] Yeah. And I don't know.

[00:11:20] I think you were literally just standing on the side of the road

[00:11:23] or we were like camp next to each other and you kind of started

[00:11:27] hanging out with us.

[00:11:28] But you also again, same thing.

[00:11:31] I was like, there's this Swiss dude, you know, he's a dirt bag.

[00:11:35] He seems to be a pretty good climber.

[00:11:37] But, you know, I didn't know anything about who, you know, Didier

[00:11:40] Bertude was the movie.

[00:11:42] I think he might have filmed it by then, but it certainly wasn't out yet.

[00:11:47] The Parallelogiams or maybe had just come out.

[00:11:49] I don't know. But yeah, so neither one of us knew who each other were.

[00:11:55] And I was just dirt bagging.

[00:11:57] And yeah, I mean, the story was, is that I had found this crack,

[00:12:00] I think the year before, actually, and put an anchor on it

[00:12:05] and then kind of tried it.

[00:12:06] But for various reasons, it was out of my league.

[00:12:09] Like I had climbed 513 in the desert by then or right around then.

[00:12:14] I think on that trip I was down there, met you.

[00:12:16] I did like optimator and stuff.

[00:12:18] But this this crack, like just wasn't my skill set.

[00:12:21] And yeah, and then we got to know each other.

[00:12:23] And then, yeah, you were asking me.

[00:12:24] You asked me, I think, if I knew of any like really sweet lines.

[00:12:29] Yeah. And and I was kind of like,

[00:12:32] yeah, I do. But I'm you.

[00:12:34] I'm not going to let you climb it.

[00:12:35] It's like my route, you know?

[00:12:40] But but then I don't know.

[00:12:41] I think we climbed together and we did did some stuff.

[00:12:45] And and I realized like, OK, this guy's got the skills to do it.

[00:12:48] And you're a sweet dude.

[00:12:50] And so I kind of relented and and said, yeah, you can

[00:12:54] you can do this crack if you want.

[00:12:55] So I mean, I don't this is all me remembering.

[00:12:58] I don't know what you remember.

[00:12:59] Well, I remember we went together the first day or even every day.

[00:13:03] We went up there and I remember like I've been so impressed about your footwork.

[00:13:08] I was so impressed how strong you were on your feet.

[00:13:11] And I think just.

[00:13:14] Yeah, had super fun.

[00:13:15] I remember like, yeah, one of the night in the campground,

[00:13:17] you took the guitar and you start singing and it was just amazing.

[00:13:21] And we're just like, wow,

[00:13:23] is this guy awesome?

[00:13:26] You're the first person that's ever said my singing was amazing, though.

[00:13:29] But I appreciate it.

[00:13:31] I did. That was awesome.

[00:13:32] Well, what happened was, is that you sent that thing.

[00:13:35] And the thing about the footwork is interesting because that's the

[00:13:39] that was the problem I was having on that route.

[00:13:41] Is it, you know, like footwork isn't going to get you up at?

[00:13:45] It's a little it's a little more than that.

[00:13:48] And, you know, it went on to be a little bit of a big deal,

[00:13:51] which I think is kind of funny now because it's really just another little crack

[00:13:56] in Indian Creek now, you know, like as far as its significance.

[00:14:00] But yeah, you got some press for it.

[00:14:02] And and then I it took me seven more years to climb it.

[00:14:05] I think I did it seven years later.

[00:14:08] Not like seven years of constant effort, but off and on effort.

[00:14:12] But but yeah, and then you sort of disappeared into elsewhere.

[00:14:17] And going back to the no Internet thing, it's like we can all keep track.

[00:14:21] Like I literally can look up what you were doing like yesterday.

[00:14:25] Didier, if I wanted to right now, right, or like a couple of days ago.

[00:14:29] But back then, you know, you've met these climbers at climbing areas

[00:14:33] and then, you know, they moved on and you either had to,

[00:14:36] I don't know, keep in touch on email or like postcards or so.

[00:14:41] Once you left Indian Creek and I either stayed or went back to Colorado,

[00:14:46] that was like it, you know, I couldn't keep up with what you were up to.

[00:14:50] But you ended up in Canada.

[00:14:52] I think it was a year after that.

[00:14:54] Yeah. But the other thing that was was interesting, and I want to kind of start

[00:14:58] with the interview part of this is that.

[00:15:02] I've talked about this since is as having been sort of this myth

[00:15:06] that Americans kept close to their hearts,

[00:15:09] that that Americans were like the crack climbers and Europeans

[00:15:13] were the sport climbers and famously, and this was true to a certain extent,

[00:15:18] like Europeans would come to a place like Indian Creek and get, you know,

[00:15:22] have a hard time or like Yosemite has that that as well.

[00:15:26] But that's all changed a lot, actually.

[00:15:29] And and I think you were sort of one of these people that that broke that mold

[00:15:34] and showed up with the skills to climb all these cracks.

[00:15:37] I think you'd already done Greenspit.

[00:15:39] So let me ask a little bit about your climbing background.

[00:15:42] Growing up in Switzerland, obviously it's this amazing and giant

[00:15:46] climbing culture.

[00:15:47] But what led you to being such a crack fiend,

[00:15:50] you know, to even be featured in that that Parallelogiam's movie

[00:15:53] about the crack climbing in Indian Creek and and putting up

[00:15:57] in addition to learning to fly?

[00:16:00] You know, you had that other project, which I think you called I Love Everyone,

[00:16:06] but was sort of moved to from Switzerland with love.

[00:16:09] When you speak about Switzerland, like more than the sport climbing era,

[00:16:13] it was even more like just alpine.

[00:16:16] And I did start climbing with,

[00:16:19] let's say, at the beginning with my father and my family,

[00:16:22] just like walking in the Alps in the summer, spending a night in a hut.

[00:16:27] And my father, who was an alpinist

[00:16:31] and as almost everybody there, just

[00:16:34] just an alpinist, had a rope in his bag and just

[00:16:39] scramble some boulders with my father.

[00:16:42] The idea was always climbing for mountaineering.

[00:16:45] That was. Still the idea there in the 1990s kind of thing.

[00:16:50] And my first I did

[00:16:54] a camp to learn about climbing and alpinism,

[00:16:58] but it was one week in the mountain and climbing was just about like

[00:17:03] getting to know how to move on the rock and use your gear, use the rope.

[00:17:09] And the big goal of this week wasn't climbing,

[00:17:11] but it was to climb the 4000 meter peaks, which is like only alpinism.

[00:17:17] So my culture would naturally lead me to become an alpinist.

[00:17:22] But I don't know.

[00:17:23] I mean, well, that was the time also,

[00:17:26] at least in Switzerland, where sport climbing starting to grow.

[00:17:30] And I think I just get that sense of the sport climbing.

[00:17:35] It's just.

[00:17:36] So I think, yeah, I just kind of love it right at the beginning.

[00:17:41] And that was also the time where movies with Ben Moon,

[00:17:47] Jerry Maffat's, you know, all VHS was released.

[00:17:51] And I was watching that and just also like buying,

[00:17:55] starting to buy French magazines about climbing.

[00:17:59] And pretty soon at maybe the age of 14,

[00:18:04] I quit the alpine culture to do on this sport climbing,

[00:18:09] which was already a move quite unique or original in a sense for that culture,

[00:18:15] because all my friends, all my, you know, the culture,

[00:18:20] which is like climbing, yes, but climbing for alpinism.

[00:18:24] That was it. And I was like, no, I'm going to do like Ben Moon.

[00:18:30] But then I.

[00:18:32] I don't know why.

[00:18:33] Yeah, so on these magazines,

[00:18:36] that was also the time when Alex Huber,

[00:18:39] who I think also play a huge role in in maybe European

[00:18:44] getting to be good at American style.

[00:18:48] Alex Huber just free the Salate.

[00:18:50] And I think I was just 14 or 15, just so these amazing picture

[00:18:55] from Heinsack on the headboard of Salate.

[00:18:59] And I was like, holy shit, that really like impact me.

[00:19:04] And at the end of the day in Europe,

[00:19:07] you do have actually a bunch of cracks and not far from my home.

[00:19:12] There is Chamonix and I have a very good friend who was mainly an alpinist,

[00:19:17] but also super keen into climbing.

[00:19:20] And he introduced me into like multi pitch

[00:19:23] Chamonix climbs where you have to jump or usually you lay back

[00:19:27] because everybody lay back, but you know that you can't jump.

[00:19:31] And you know that somebody knows that somebody know a guy who was

[00:19:36] who spent some time in Yosemite and he knows how to jump.

[00:19:40] And he does that without laybacking.

[00:19:43] And I was like, wow, that's and I kind of like kind of try to learn by myself.

[00:19:48] And I think everything can like

[00:19:51] slowly grow a little bit.

[00:19:53] And I did my first trip to even my first trip,

[00:19:58] my big first trip outside just Europe.

[00:20:01] I was two months in Yosemite with the goal of climbing Salate

[00:20:07] because I was I was 21.

[00:20:09] I did climb 514 and I was like,

[00:20:14] yeah, you know, just super stoked about Salate.

[00:20:17] And when you put down on the table

[00:20:20] the the guidebook of Salate, you just like oh, 510.

[00:20:24] Okay, that 6A, the 5A or that 5C.

[00:20:31] And I was like, oh, that's going to be super easy.

[00:20:33] Right. Yeah.

[00:20:34] So that that is like the kind of European thing that happens.

[00:20:38] Exactly.

[00:20:39] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:41] And well, I got my my ass super kicked on Salate.

[00:20:44] I spent four days with a German friend there.

[00:20:47] Was kind of happy to survive

[00:20:50] far away from from like free climbing the thing.

[00:20:54] But it was kind of like a very good experience.

[00:20:56] I was so stoked.

[00:20:57] But the thing is, like, I didn't do Salate, but I went to all the single pitch

[00:21:02] of the valley, like Phoenix, cosmic debris,

[00:21:06] separate reality, tails of power.

[00:21:09] And I just worked on that.

[00:21:11] I worked on them, just like spend hours and days on them,

[00:21:15] get soup like blood everywhere.

[00:21:18] And at the end of this trip, like two months, three paces,

[00:21:21] I didn't do Salate like far away, but I did cosmic debris.

[00:21:24] I did Phoenix.

[00:21:25] I did separate reality and I did tails of power,

[00:21:29] which maybe was the hardest for me because it's just like a weird size.

[00:21:32] Like and that triggered me to be like where I was.

[00:21:37] I don't know.

[00:21:37] Just found found out that crack climbing just.

[00:21:42] Yeah, just like a passion.

[00:21:43] And then when I came back from that trip, I discover Valle del Orco in Italy,

[00:21:48] which is actually amazing for crack climbing.

[00:21:51] And that's where I found Greenspeed

[00:21:54] and also in Greenspeed was interesting because it's jamming.

[00:21:58] And I've learned that in Yosemite.

[00:22:01] But you need good skill of sport climbing, which I had.

[00:22:05] I had all the background.

[00:22:06] And I think that is the path

[00:22:10] since then I just like been on, which is like coming from my European

[00:22:15] sport climbing background, but putting the effort into

[00:22:19] learning the American style of crack climbing and also the ethic

[00:22:23] and finding a way to mix them together

[00:22:26] and open new.

[00:22:29] Yeah, a new a new vision of crack climbing where you work on the move.

[00:22:33] You find some steep stuff and you

[00:22:37] yeah, you apply sport climbing skills to crack, which needs both.

[00:22:42] It's interesting because, you know, and if you found this piece,

[00:22:47] you emailed me and and said you'd found this thing

[00:22:50] that I'd written about learning to fly and independent of talking to you about this

[00:22:54] because I hadn't talked to you since you, you know, since we left that creek that time.

[00:22:59] But I came to the same exact conclusion where I was like,

[00:23:02] the thing I learned from watching you do that climb, belaying you on the send,

[00:23:06] actually, was just that I was like, he's he's up.

[00:23:10] I'm like, he's up there sport climbing.

[00:23:12] You know, he's got his fingers in the crack, but but he's working it.

[00:23:16] You were like, you know, figuring out where all the jams are,

[00:23:19] even though it looks parallel.

[00:23:20] And that was actually new to me at that time.

[00:23:23] I mean, I had sport climbed in the sense I'd clipped bolts,

[00:23:25] but I hadn't sport climbed in the sense that I'd

[00:23:28] projected anything for any significant amount of time or

[00:23:31] or, you know, tried to train specific movements or anything.

[00:23:35] And that was like the whole gist of my piece was the fact that I learned that

[00:23:41] watching you, not immediately, because it took me a while to

[00:23:45] cast off my trad attitudes a little bit.

[00:23:48] But yeah, when I brought sort of sport climbing to that crack,

[00:23:51] I finally was able to do it, actually.

[00:23:53] So it's interesting to hear you say that because it's a conclusion

[00:23:56] I came to independently about your climbing as well.

[00:24:00] So, yeah. So anyway, how many you know,

[00:24:03] how many trips did you do to the States in that era?

[00:24:06] And when did we catch up?

[00:24:08] What were some of the other things that you'd done?

[00:24:10] I did only two trips to the States.

[00:24:13] So the first one was 2000.

[00:24:16] Oh, no, that's not true. Maybe three trips.

[00:24:19] The first one was in 2002, like my first, like Yosemite, like two months.

[00:24:23] I took the plane, go to San Francisco, go to the valley, spend two months,

[00:24:28] go back to San Francisco, took the plane back home.

[00:24:32] But then a second trip, I think I did one month in the valley.

[00:24:36] And then we went to Indian Creek with my buddy Simon and Tamatin.

[00:24:42] And that trip was amazing.

[00:24:45] And that trip was like, I don't know, maybe the...

[00:24:49] Yeah, I had done Green's Pit before, but Indian Creek,

[00:24:53] the first trip in Indian Creek was just amazing.

[00:24:56] And if I can, I'd love to share that story because I think it's such a great story.

[00:25:03] We had the guidebook in the valley with Simon of Indian Creek.

[00:25:08] And I came to Indian Creek, I wanted to do all 514.

[00:25:12] And in the guidebook, 513, in the guidebook, they were like...

[00:25:16] At that time, it would be 506, 513.

[00:25:19] Right, yeah.

[00:25:20] And maybe the first night we didn't know about that crew,

[00:25:24] but they were like Peter Mortimer doing a movie.

[00:25:27] So all these like Timmy O'Neill,

[00:25:31] Topher Denaho, Eric Denaria, all these crew were there.

[00:25:35] And with my friend Simon just there and just like,

[00:25:39] hey, what is the hardest 513 around?

[00:25:43] You know, super like, I don't know, like kind of like...

[00:25:47] But we went and shot up and we were just like,

[00:25:48] well, yeah, what is the hardest one here?

[00:25:51] And I think Topher or Eric told us that's the optimator.

[00:25:56] And the next day we went with Simon and the optimator.

[00:25:59] We both sent optimator in top rope.

[00:26:02] Very second day on the creek and I think,

[00:26:05] and went back to the camp and everybody had been asking how did it go?

[00:26:09] And we said, yeah, it was awesome.

[00:26:12] We did it in top rope.

[00:26:13] We sent in top rope.

[00:26:14] They were like, come on.

[00:26:18] Everything is fine now, I'm in top rope.

[00:26:21] Yeah, OK, well, we're going to go back anyway.

[00:26:24] The goal was not top roping.

[00:26:26] We went back the next day, we both sent the optimator placing gear

[00:26:31] and we went back to the campground just like, how did it go?

[00:26:34] Well, we got it.

[00:26:37] And then they shut up.

[00:26:38] The entire trip was just like getting to one 513, getting hit.

[00:26:44] It was crazy. Yeah.

[00:26:46] Yeah, that's awesome.

[00:26:47] I'm sure, like I said, they had a prejudice.

[00:26:49] You know, these two Euro guys show up and think they're going to go

[00:26:52] and send the hardest things.

[00:26:54] I'm sure they were like rolling their eyes.

[00:26:56] But but yeah, like I said, you kind of broke that mold.

[00:26:59] But it sounds like they ingratiated you into the crew because

[00:27:03] you said you ended up in the film.

[00:27:05] Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[00:27:06] I mean, Peter Modimer wanted to.

[00:27:09] I mean, that's probably what I'm wanting to show the creek as like

[00:27:13] all the kind of like and type of climbing.

[00:27:16] And he wanted to to to feel like a very hard scent.

[00:27:20] And yeah, yeah.

[00:27:23] He asked me to.

[00:27:27] If I could, because I spot a line which became.

[00:27:31] Yeah. God bless everybody.

[00:27:33] Oh, God bless.

[00:27:34] Yeah. Well, he came from Switzerland with love and that's that's fine, too.

[00:27:39] And yeah, he got that in the year.

[00:27:42] But that being said, in the valley, just before that trip,

[00:27:46] we had a very good relationship with Mikadash.

[00:27:49] All right. Of course, unfortunately, passed away.

[00:27:53] He passed away. Yeah.

[00:27:54] And Mikadash told about this to to to Pete and the crew

[00:27:59] and that we were already a bit like welcome and not as OK.

[00:28:03] Classic Europe coming from nowhere.

[00:28:05] But it was interesting because.

[00:28:08] I had the boldness to say that Green Speed by 514, you know,

[00:28:13] I said that because I thought it was cool

[00:28:16] because if you translate in Europe 514 without giving a letter,

[00:28:20] it could be a B plus or it could be nine.

[00:28:23] And I thought it was cool to say, well, let's just say it's 514,

[00:28:26] because if you don't know how to jam, you can feel like a nine.

[00:28:29] If you know. Right.

[00:28:30] I think it's a B plus, even though now I think it's just 13 plus.

[00:28:35] But still, it was kind of every weather.

[00:28:39] Yeah. Come on.

[00:28:40] You're European.

[00:28:41] You did a roof crack and you think it's a 514.

[00:28:44] So I had it. It wasn't that.

[00:28:47] Yeah, I got some criticism already there.

[00:28:50] But then it was. Yeah.

[00:28:51] But I mean, yeah, it was like the cult, the culture has moved on.

[00:28:55] But but like, you know, sort of giving each other shit,

[00:28:59] you know, taking the piss and it's kind of like what you were supposed to do.

[00:29:03] Back in the days, I mean, I must have been the first one

[00:29:08] who can talk about crack climbing like as an American.

[00:29:12] Yeah, I know what I'm talking about.

[00:29:15] But yeah, I accept the who, the who and the British as well.

[00:29:21] The Pooh Brothers didn't burn through Indian Creek the way you did.

[00:29:24] Yeah. But anyway, but they but yeah, I mean, and also like it's super common

[00:29:30] and you'd probably I don't know when you've been back or if you're coming back.

[00:29:35] But, you know, it's super common to like every other campsite

[00:29:39] in the creek has has Spanish people and and German people.

[00:29:44] And it's and that just wasn't the case back then, you know?

[00:29:47] It was just not not like the destination it is now.

[00:29:50] But people I mean, it's crazy how many Europeans do climbing trips to the creek.

[00:29:56] Now it's kind of amazing, actually.

[00:29:58] Yeah, a big, big change, actually.

[00:30:00] So yeah, yeah.

[00:30:02] Yeah. So that I mean, that's all like a lot of nostalgia.

[00:30:06] And people, if they can, I think you got to join Real Rock to find

[00:30:11] Parallelogams, the movie, because I've looked and it's not anywhere.

[00:30:16] There's a piece of it here and there on the YouTube, but the full thing.

[00:30:20] But it's worth a look for everybody who's listening to go back to that film.

[00:30:23] It's a very classic climbing film.

[00:30:26] Just these cool sends.

[00:30:28] But then also Timmy O'Neill, like really kind of brings it all together.

[00:30:32] It's it's pretty hilarious.

[00:30:33] And that was kind of when he was like just kind of creating that personality

[00:30:37] that he's he's had since then, at least on film personality that he's had.

[00:30:42] So so funny. Yeah. All right. Well, cool.

[00:30:45] I mean, that's a good background.

[00:30:47] The other question I have, and because we're going to start talking

[00:30:50] about religion here eventually in this story pretty heavily.

[00:30:56] And what about that in your background?

[00:30:58] I mean, did you grow up in a religious family?

[00:31:00] You also have at least one brother who climbs.

[00:31:02] You have other siblings that are climbers.

[00:31:05] I don't know what your whole family situation is.

[00:31:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:31:08] Well, I have two sisters and one brother in my brother

[00:31:12] and one of my sister.

[00:31:13] They are guide mountain guide and badass climber.

[00:31:17] Yeah, yeah, I grew up, I grew up

[00:31:21] kind of saying the Bible belt of Switzerland kind of thing.

[00:31:25] So super religious.

[00:31:26] Also, I grew up in a small village,

[00:31:29] you know, so the culture is very like,

[00:31:32] yeah, not sophisticated, not modernity.

[00:31:36] You know, the the philosophy of the Enlightenment didn't

[00:31:41] wasn't wasn't there in my village even in 1980s.

[00:31:45] And one example as well is just like.

[00:31:48] Every week, the priest of the parish of my village

[00:31:52] was in the school, like the public school teaching us Catholic

[00:31:57] catechism.

[00:31:59] So I grew up there and yeah, it's just

[00:32:03] was a Christian Catholic as everybody else, even though it's starting to

[00:32:08] fade a little bit apart like I was like all my schoolmates.

[00:32:13] The majority of them just didn't want it to go anymore.

[00:32:16] The church on the Sunday.

[00:32:17] But I kind of wanted to go because I kind of like it.

[00:32:21] I like the idea.

[00:32:23] And yeah, it was interesting into these questions of like the meaning of life

[00:32:27] and God and ultimate truth and and Christianity

[00:32:32] offer them. Yeah.

[00:32:33] Answers or like that kind of topic.

[00:32:36] And I was I was interesting to into that.

[00:32:39] So I stayed Christian.

[00:32:41] And yes, that was my background, like Bible Belt, Bible Belt of Switzerland.

[00:32:47] Yeah, yeah. It's interesting, too, because I mean, I think by and large

[00:32:51] climbing is fairly agnostic.

[00:32:55] Climbers tend to not be terribly religious, right?

[00:32:58] At least in the United States, agnostic to to atheists, to or at least mildly,

[00:33:03] you know, if they have a religious background, it's not something that comes up.

[00:33:06] Is that the same?

[00:33:06] I mean, when you got into the greater climbing community and in in Switzerland

[00:33:11] or in Europe, oh, yeah.

[00:33:12] Were you also like the outsider in terms of that?

[00:33:15] Yeah, definitely.

[00:33:17] But I yeah, I wasn't the outsider when I was a kid in my village.

[00:33:21] I mean, right.

[00:33:22] Everybody went to church.

[00:33:23] And but then when I start climbing at like teenager,

[00:33:27] usually every teenager just like quit religion or don't practice anymore,

[00:33:31] don't think about it anymore because but I keep thinking about it.

[00:33:35] And even though I wasn't coherent Christian, because I mean,

[00:33:39] if you follow the ethic of the Catholic Church,

[00:33:43] it's super like hard to be to be a Catholic into the society.

[00:33:48] So but I did believe in Jesus.

[00:33:50] I thought Jesus was the son of God and the ultimate truth was there.

[00:33:55] I would say like a good a priori regarding Christianity.

[00:34:00] Yeah. And in that sense, that could be like a kind of marginal in the climbing scene.

[00:34:06] But also I wasn't I wasn't.

[00:34:07] Yeah, I mean, it's I didn't.

[00:34:09] Yeah, I wasn't radical Christian.

[00:34:10] I was I was just like a young dad finding climbing and kind of.

[00:34:15] Yeah, I wanted to go go Sunday mass and as much as I can.

[00:34:20] And if I cannot, I cannot.

[00:34:22] Conditions are good.

[00:34:23] You're going climbing. No,

[00:34:25] the I mean, I don't remember it either.

[00:34:28] You know, in terms of you, it's like it wasn't something that you wore openly or.

[00:34:33] I mean, I remember your little you had your little your little wooden cross.

[00:34:36] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:38] Necklace. Yeah.

[00:34:38] And that that was the only thing.

[00:34:40] But I was I mean, I'm always kind of aware and I know like very devout

[00:34:44] Christians who climb are aware that that it's a it's a pretty sort of

[00:34:49] atheist landscape out there among like climbers.

[00:34:52] So they either don't really talk about it or they they climb with other Christians.

[00:34:57] You know, I think it's pretty common.

[00:34:59] So but that's just just sort of I just wanted to know what the background was there.

[00:35:03] Yeah. So, you know, let's get on to the to to your time in Canada

[00:35:08] in the Cobra crack you recently sent.

[00:35:11] I think it was just a few days ago, the Cobra crack after.

[00:35:15] I mean, what must be 13, 14, 10?

[00:35:18] I don't know how many exact years it was that you originally tried it

[00:35:22] as a first to send. Is that right?

[00:35:23] I mean, it hadn't been freed yet when you were trying. Is that right?

[00:35:27] Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:29] I first try in 2005, so 19 years ago.

[00:35:33] And yeah, it was just like an open project

[00:35:37] in the middle of the forest somewhere in Canada.

[00:35:40] Yeah, exactly.

[00:35:42] Well, anyway, and I mean, and this has been big news.

[00:35:46] It's it's it's kind of a coincidence that we got this going right now,

[00:35:50] because, I mean, we've been talking about maybe doing one of these podcasts

[00:35:53] for a couple of years, actually.

[00:35:54] But, you know, it was big news.

[00:35:56] It's like a lot of praise.

[00:35:59] You know, you've you people are psyched and and they're all these posts

[00:36:03] are fascinating because there's this like in each one of them,

[00:36:06] there's this mention of you getting out of climbing for 10 years

[00:36:10] or like disappearing for 10 years or like retiring for 10 years.

[00:36:14] Some do mention the monastery.

[00:36:16] But I've been reading these and, you know, I've known you for a long time

[00:36:20] and and got pieces of the story again, like the Internet didn't exist

[00:36:25] and nobody was like reporting in real time that that you had left,

[00:36:29] you know, and you had just basically disappeared

[00:36:34] as far as the climbing community is concerned.

[00:36:37] And that's like a big story.

[00:36:39] And so I'm looking at these Cobra posts

[00:36:42] and reading your stuff, too, because you've been you've been hinting at all this

[00:36:46] or filling in this sort of gap in your it's an awesome, huge deal

[00:36:50] that you sent it a couple of days ago.

[00:36:52] But I don't think people realize like what this climb kind of represents

[00:36:57] in in this interim, in this this 19 year period.

[00:37:02] So that's kind of like what I'm here to talk about, because I think it's.

[00:37:06] It's an awesome story, but it's not just like, hooray.

[00:37:11] He sent after what disappearing, I guess, or anything else.

[00:37:16] So tell me a little bit about those first.

[00:37:18] I mean, that period when you when you tried it, you got injured.

[00:37:22] And basically, yeah, that was it.

[00:37:23] Yeah, that's a long story.

[00:37:26] Yeah, it's so much to say.

[00:37:30] But yeah, I'm going to take my time.

[00:37:31] You have to. We have time. Yeah.

[00:37:33] Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:37:35] My schedule is cleared.

[00:37:38] Yeah. So back in the days, 2005.

[00:37:46] Yes. Superstalk on climbing and superstalk on crack climbing first

[00:37:50] the same because it seems like, you know, I found a mine of gold

[00:37:54] mixing European style and finding cracks and doing first ascent.

[00:37:59] And and. Yeah, that was my I find my, you know,

[00:38:06] I don't need it as a climber or just like the way

[00:38:08] I can express myself the best, like like an artist.

[00:38:11] And I found I found my I don't like

[00:38:16] I vision or so I was full gas on that and heard about the Cobra crack

[00:38:21] and when they're in the spring, the beginning of the summer of 2005.

[00:38:27] And I didn't get it because I mean, I can't

[00:38:31] I wasn't strong enough to put that on the table like more bluntly.

[00:38:35] But I got to say that it was like super, super rainy season.

[00:38:40] It actually pissed me off.

[00:38:41] I thought Squamish was just like rain every every two days.

[00:38:46] It just rain.

[00:38:46] And actually, I think it was just like a bad season for everybody.

[00:38:51] As a climber, because he rained a lot that season.

[00:38:54] I cannot remember three days in a row of sun.

[00:38:57] And I did spend two months, two months and a half there.

[00:39:00] So but it was fun.

[00:39:01] And I had to go back in Switzerland mid-July.

[00:39:04] So I had some like things to do there.

[00:39:08] And yeah, the idea was just to coming back

[00:39:11] the next year in order to hopefully get the first ascent

[00:39:16] and and finish the movie because I became friends with Peter Moldimer.

[00:39:20] After a parallel jam.

[00:39:22] And he was so stoked about the cobra.

[00:39:25] So he he can like film the process and and build a story.

[00:39:30] And so the idea was just like, OK, let's just come back next year.

[00:39:35] And I didn't even think about coming back the same year

[00:39:38] because I didn't have money.

[00:39:40] I had some sponsor, but like no money.

[00:39:43] I mean, I was like working in Switzerland to get money to buy plane tickets.

[00:39:47] So I was like,

[00:39:50] I cannot I cannot afford to go to Canada twice a year

[00:39:55] because I didn't have money.

[00:39:56] So, yeah, let's plan to go back next year.

[00:39:58] But during that same year in the winter, my girlfriend,

[00:40:03] which which was Squamish climber became pregnant.

[00:40:08] And this news.

[00:40:12] I don't know.

[00:40:13] Somehow broke me down.

[00:40:15] And also my partner, we both were just like super stoked about climbing.

[00:40:22] Didn't had any other meaning of life kind of thing.

[00:40:26] And I would say maybe also like didn't have any friends or.

[00:40:32] People in the climbing community who was.

[00:40:35] In the same time, a climber, like full time climber

[00:40:39] and a parent that didn't exist.

[00:40:42] My my role model where we're single,

[00:40:46] single climber with a Ben Moon, Chris Sharma or whatever,

[00:40:50] or Lynn Hill or like no parenthood in this time frame.

[00:40:54] And and for me, the way I can picture myself in the future

[00:40:59] was only as a single, not maybe single, but like

[00:41:04] not having a kid climber as everybody else.

[00:41:08] I mean, that's.

[00:41:09] I was like to me, was like having a kid

[00:41:13] was just like the end of my climbing.

[00:41:15] Just I know it was wrong, but and also it was I was like 23.

[00:41:21] So young.

[00:41:22] And as I say, just maybe no role model, no friends,

[00:41:26] no guide who had a had a kid and said, hey, dude,

[00:41:31] life is going to keep going and it's going to be great.

[00:41:35] And you can do both and don't be afraid and see it's possible.

[00:41:42] And it's even maybe better, you know, nobody just like

[00:41:45] maybe some people try to tell me that.

[00:41:48] But I mean, once they say one thing to, you know, tell that.

[00:41:52] But it's not a thing to leave that.

[00:41:54] And to me in my milieu, nobody leaves that.

[00:41:57] So and for my girlfriend, it was the same.

[00:42:01] So huge depression, huge questions.

[00:42:04] And the couple in that middle just like exploded.

[00:42:08] I mean, we were both totally, I mean, at least for me.

[00:42:11] But I yeah.

[00:42:13] I know for her as well, we both drowned.

[00:42:17] Did our best.

[00:42:19] Did everything we could to keep the baby, because

[00:42:23] if I didn't have any advice in order to like, hey,

[00:42:26] it's going to be awesome to have a kid and you can climb and have a kid.

[00:42:30] I did have a bunch of advice to say, well, abortion, you know,

[00:42:34] it's easy and doesn't take much and you can keep going.

[00:42:38] And and I did have a lot of that in my girlfriend, too.

[00:42:42] And we were like.

[00:42:44] In the same time, not ready to have a baby,

[00:42:47] but in the same time, like willing to keep the baby because.

[00:42:52] And I mean, you have a religious there's a religious aspect to it.

[00:42:55] And I did. Yeah, I did.

[00:42:56] I don't know if you're talking for sure.

[00:42:58] Yeah, but more than it was also like, you know, like a human just like

[00:43:03] doesn't sound right.

[00:43:04] Oh, I mean.

[00:43:05] It's kind of yeah, I don't.

[00:43:07] Yeah. The mystery of life and but I did I did have a lot of like

[00:43:10] religious pressure on that, too.

[00:43:14] So whatever.

[00:43:17] The news of, yeah, being father came on the table

[00:43:20] in that winter 2004, 2005, 2005, 2006.

[00:43:26] And yeah, one of my health was like, OK, my life is falling down.

[00:43:34] Don't know what to do with my life.

[00:43:35] I'm totally lost.

[00:43:38] But I do believe in God.

[00:43:40] I'm a Christian.

[00:43:42] Jesus is supposed to save you.

[00:43:45] So, Jesus, if you are real,

[00:43:48] I really need you to save me.

[00:43:51] Like, I don't know when.

[00:43:52] I don't know how.

[00:43:53] So I turn myself to be like super radical Christian,

[00:43:58] went to church as much as I could read the Bible, try to.

[00:44:04] Try to leave as close as I could from God

[00:44:08] as the ultimate path or possibility

[00:44:11] of of like finding a way to go through that depression

[00:44:15] or like difficult time and.

[00:44:18] I did so many things that.

[00:44:20] But at some point, I decided to

[00:44:26] to go back to the Cobra because my girlfriend lived in Squamish.

[00:44:31] And we went we wasn't we were in Australia back in that time.

[00:44:35] But her base camp was in Squamish.

[00:44:38] And I kind of had this idea of going back to Squamish.

[00:44:44] Going back to Squamish,

[00:44:46] a little bit a couple of weeks before her trying to get down the Cobra.

[00:44:52] And then maybe I can ask for money to sponsor

[00:44:56] and became like a real professional climber, which I wasn't at all.

[00:45:01] I was a dirt bag.

[00:45:02] I got some company giving gear.

[00:45:05] But as hundreds of other climbers where company gives some gear, you know,

[00:45:09] I I work as an electrician and ski teacher in Switzerland for making money

[00:45:15] and being a dirt bag six months in a year.

[00:45:17] And and I was a dirt bag.

[00:45:19] But then I thought, yeah, if I can do the Cobra,

[00:45:22] I can become a professional climber and then get money

[00:45:25] and then become a father and assume this responsibility of like,

[00:45:31] yeah, welcoming that little baby.

[00:45:34] And so I went back to Squamish.

[00:45:37] But I was so psychologically tired.

[00:45:40] I mean, I was I was depressed, I think just like

[00:45:46] just depressed and not in shape.

[00:45:49] And I had a long old knee injury back in the day.

[00:45:54] And my knee was painful for like, I don't know, a month ago.

[00:45:59] I mean, a bunch of lots of my knee was painful.

[00:46:03] Like I was even like, let's say that what did you like?

[00:46:07] You don't walk, try.

[00:46:08] You just like limping.

[00:46:09] Yeah, I was like that for like a month, a month, a month and came back to Squamish.

[00:46:15] Met my friend Francis, who was the filmmaker for like

[00:46:20] Peter and the second day in Squamish.

[00:46:24] The knee just like the knee didn't broke, but my body was just like falling apart.

[00:46:29] And my knee was so painful at that point that I wasn't even

[00:46:33] I need to get some stitches, some

[00:46:37] that what you saw at the end of First Ascent, like I can't walk anymore.

[00:46:41] And and during that same very same evening when I

[00:46:47] yeah, when my knee was so hurting that I was OK,

[00:46:51] I need to go back to Switzerland and need to get a surgery.

[00:46:56] I need to calm down because I'm, you know, I have

[00:46:59] too many things going around.

[00:47:01] During that same evening, I had some kind of like

[00:47:05] mystical experience.

[00:47:07] Crazy to explain.

[00:47:13] Yeah, I was.

[00:47:15] Yeah. So I don't know.

[00:47:18] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:20] Mystical experience.

[00:47:23] Kind of hard to say, but.

[00:47:25] I thought that was I thought I became a shaman during that evening.

[00:47:29] I saw the world differently.

[00:47:31] I I saw myself differently as well.

[00:47:34] It's like somehow I get some like my my conscience being like bigger

[00:47:40] and stronger and I can see my deepest intention.

[00:47:45] And it was kind of like a liberation.

[00:47:48] And the very the very next day, I called a Swiss priest

[00:47:53] who was aware and my confidant, I would say.

[00:47:58] And this Swiss and I told the Swiss priest, dude, I think

[00:48:01] I think Jesus Christ answered me.

[00:48:03] I think Jesus Christ answered me.

[00:48:05] He I don't know.

[00:48:06] I leave some kind of spiritual experience.

[00:48:08] And he told me, oh, dude, that's amazing.

[00:48:11] And you know what?

[00:48:13] Yesterday night for the Catholic Church,

[00:48:16] that was the feet of the Holy Spirit coming down to the church.

[00:48:21] And he was so amazed that could experiment the power of the Holy Spirit.

[00:48:26] And to me, that was just like, oh, yeah.

[00:48:30] I mean, everything just like and I since that day,

[00:48:35] I become a Christian, like a radical Christian.

[00:48:39] Like you, you could tell me anything you could.

[00:48:44] You could show me any proof of any kind that all these Christian things,

[00:48:50] bullshit doesn't stand, doesn't hold.

[00:48:52] I was like, dude, you don't know what you're talking about.

[00:48:55] I I've been up there.

[00:48:57] I met Jesus Christ.

[00:48:58] You know, I I experienced the Holy Spirit.

[00:49:01] This thing is real.

[00:49:03] And talking to that with my partner was just like

[00:49:09] adding a new piece of misunderstandings and.

[00:49:14] And and I was like, oh, we need to get married.

[00:49:18] And also I need to go back.

[00:49:20] I mean, I also need to go back to Switzerland in order to get my surgery.

[00:49:24] That was not religious.

[00:49:26] But everything, everything all together and I starting to speak

[00:49:30] as a radical Christian, like, yeah.

[00:49:33] And the couple like broke down.

[00:49:34] I mean, yes, she wasn't having it.

[00:49:37] No, yeah, no, no, she was like that.

[00:49:40] And I'm that must have been so awful to hear my words from for her.

[00:49:46] And and the thing is like that

[00:49:49] I don't want to put myself as a victim of Christianity,

[00:49:52] but somehow in the world of Jesus,

[00:49:57] you can't left a woman and kids out and follow the gospel

[00:50:02] and and dedicate yourself to the kingdom of God.

[00:50:05] And even the the holy saint, the saint of Switzerland

[00:50:10] is a guy in the Middle Age who left his wife

[00:50:13] and I think 10 kids to live just by himself in a cave.

[00:50:19] And he's the main character of Switzerland.

[00:50:23] To to this day, he's just like paranoid and

[00:50:27] and so many example in the Catholic Church

[00:50:31] where priests or like saints just like left family,

[00:50:37] left babies, the woman and the kid doesn't count in the church.

[00:50:41] So I was like a radical Christian being like getting

[00:50:46] with that priest into the radical thinking of Christianity

[00:50:51] with these example and stories where where you say, well, yeah,

[00:50:56] normally you have to be a good father.

[00:50:59] That's a good a good Christian way.

[00:51:02] But there is a there is a hidden Christianity for the for the for the

[00:51:11] for the chosen one, you know, and for the chosen one.

[00:51:16] This is special.

[00:51:17] You got a right to leave your family,

[00:51:20] even even even maybe some kind of obligation to leave your family.

[00:51:25] You have a kid can leave your kid.

[00:51:27] That's OK. We know that's a you know, we know that's kind of shocking.

[00:51:33] We know that's an exception, but we know that it's legitimate.

[00:51:37] And that's in the Bible and not only in the Old Testament,

[00:51:40] in the New Testament, in the in the mouth of Jesus Christ.

[00:51:45] And so I just.

[00:51:49] I just decided to go that way,

[00:51:52] and also because I was a Christian since my childhood,

[00:51:55] because I thought I was interested in that type of question.

[00:51:59] Also, because I wasn't yeah, I wasn't.

[00:52:02] I was a dirtbag and climbing was everything I had.

[00:52:07] And I was like, oh, but OK, I understand why I'm so

[00:52:11] I don't fit in that society.

[00:52:13] That's because actually I am a chosen one.

[00:52:17] I am one of the you know, I have a vocation.

[00:52:21] That's what we say in French.

[00:52:22] And everything made sense except my girlfriend and my baby.

[00:52:27] But it was just like, yeah, but even though that's not true,

[00:52:30] even that made sense, it's just like, right.

[00:52:32] It made sense because it was like, yeah, I can I can go.

[00:52:35] Yeah, I can go.

[00:52:35] And I have this higher path or this higher calling.

[00:52:38] Yeah. And sometimes God to make some something to make

[00:52:42] to make clear with other with the with the chosen one, he

[00:52:46] he pushed them a little bit to make them shock.

[00:52:49] And so everything made sense.

[00:52:52] And every every single friend of mine,

[00:52:57] every single family member of me was just like, did you?

[00:53:00] What the fuck are you doing?

[00:53:02] And I was like, I was going to ask that question because I was

[00:53:05] climbing partners like Sam and stuff were just like.

[00:53:08] Yeah. Excuse me.

[00:53:10] I was happening.

[00:53:12] I was like, dude, I know you're asking me that question.

[00:53:15] I know you don't understand because if you didn't have my experience,

[00:53:18] I would I would react the same.

[00:53:21] But actually, you don't really know what's going on in that world.

[00:53:25] And I know I'm a chosen one.

[00:53:27] Jesus Christ is the savior of the world.

[00:53:33] Catholic Christianism is the ultimate truth.

[00:53:36] And yes, I know that usually a Christian is a good father, a classic life.

[00:53:42] But in Christianity, there is this hidden calling for special people.

[00:53:47] And I don't I know you don't believe I am a chosen one,

[00:53:50] but actually I am a chosen one.

[00:53:52] So, yeah, tell me whatever you want.

[00:53:55] Think that I am an asshole like a stupid guy.

[00:53:59] But I'm I'm going to follow the Christian path now

[00:54:03] because I know.

[00:54:05] Yeah, and that was strong.

[00:54:06] I mean, that was strong.

[00:54:07] The the the radical Christian community

[00:54:10] and the Bible that is very strong.

[00:54:13] I mean, you like me talking to you now.

[00:54:17] It's some kind of not possible somehow.

[00:54:20] Usually when you when you in that circle,

[00:54:24] you don't you don't leave that because so.

[00:54:26] So. So.

[00:54:27] Well, I mean, this this is the radical story.

[00:54:30] This is the the I mean, again, I was talking to my wife this morning

[00:54:34] and it's just like this is so unusual

[00:54:37] because if you guys listen, you can't tell.

[00:54:40] I mean, this is this is the beginning of that.

[00:54:42] There's an end story here that Didier is in his band talking to me.

[00:54:47] But, you know, let me just show you sort of my perspective.

[00:54:50] And then I want to talk to you a little bit about where you went

[00:54:53] and just have you describe that.

[00:54:55] But, you know, again, like just no Internet.

[00:54:58] So just stories and like what people are up to kind of filter back to you.

[00:55:03] And that was like it started to come out

[00:55:06] you months later, a year later, I don't know whenever that like.

[00:55:10] Yeah. Didier, you know, I talked to Topher.

[00:55:12] I talked to you. I heard Didier like.

[00:55:15] I don't know. I think he's like in a monastery somewhere.

[00:55:18] Like, I mean, we were all just like the greater community

[00:55:21] that knew you and knew of like you went from like this.

[00:55:24] You know, you were the man, you know, like you were the crack climbing

[00:55:28] and all of a sudden it was like, yeah, I don't know where he is.

[00:55:31] I think he's gone. Like and he did what now?

[00:55:33] And so anyway, just to like piggyback on what you're saying

[00:55:37] about your friends and your climbing partners.

[00:55:39] And and I didn't have much judgment of it

[00:55:42] because I didn't know any of the details.

[00:55:44] And it was more like, well, I didn't really know him that well.

[00:55:47] I don't know what I didn't know what your attitude was, but it was kind of this thing

[00:55:51] that just filtered down through the community where everybody was like,

[00:55:54] what now? Like what happened?

[00:55:57] So tell me then, like, you know, so you you return.

[00:56:00] I mean, you went in deep enough to cut off basically contact with with climbing,

[00:56:06] with with, you know, your girlfriend who who went on to have

[00:56:11] your daughter with your family.

[00:56:13] I don't know what what what tell us just describe sort of just the the

[00:56:17] the realities of what it was when you did this 10 year period where you were

[00:56:22] you were gone as far as like the climbing community is concerned

[00:56:25] and maybe your family as well or. Yeah, yeah.

[00:56:30] Well, first of all, it wasn't 10, but 13 years.

[00:56:32] OK. Yeah. Just a bit.

[00:56:35] Ten's a ten's an easy number.

[00:56:37] That's why everybody's posting 10. Yeah.

[00:56:40] It's like the 20 years for Cobra is 90.

[00:56:44] OK. Yeah. Stop ruining the story.

[00:56:47] Did you? That's right.

[00:56:49] Yeah. Whatever.

[00:56:51] Stop ruining the Instagram posts.

[00:56:54] Keep going. Sorry.

[00:56:57] Yeah, I mean, you're right.

[00:56:58] I mean, I cut every single type of relationship

[00:57:04] in order to be a radical or I want to say right

[00:57:08] to me by the day was in order to be just a Christian, a real Christian,

[00:57:13] a real disciple of Jesus Christ and a real disciple of Jesus Christ.

[00:57:17] Don't give a shit anymore about anything in that world

[00:57:20] because the real world is not here.

[00:57:23] Here's just like a temporary pilgrimage.

[00:57:27] And the majority to me, the majority of the Christians in the world

[00:57:30] didn't take the gospel seriously, didn't take their faith seriously.

[00:57:36] And to me, I was going to take the gospel super seriously,

[00:57:40] like as I took climbing like 100 percent,

[00:57:44] reading about it every night, thinking about it every minute of my life,

[00:57:49] consecrating every aspect of my life just to become a real disciple

[00:57:53] of Jesus Christ.

[00:57:54] And and because Jesus Christ say, well, you know what?

[00:57:57] There is two family guys.

[00:57:59] There is the family, the blood family, and this one doesn't count.

[00:58:03] And there is the spirit family.

[00:58:05] And this this one is a real one.

[00:58:07] So included the blood family, you obviously have your kid

[00:58:12] brother, sisters, cousins.

[00:58:14] I left. I mean, they could come visit me in the monastery.

[00:58:17] They wanted to be to do this.

[00:58:19] So they maybe once a year, once every two years they come.

[00:58:22] But I never went to weddings.

[00:58:26] I never went to birth of my nephews or cousins.

[00:58:30] I never went. I never saw my.

[00:58:33] Yeah, I was in my monastery and.

[00:58:38] But also the same with my friends and same with the climbing community.

[00:58:42] I would if if my friends and if some climber wants to come

[00:58:46] in the monastery, I'm going to welcome them and drink a coffee.

[00:58:49] Can I talk to them about, yeah, what they want me to talk to?

[00:58:53] But I'm I'm done, man.

[00:58:56] I'm die. Yeah, I'm death for you.

[00:58:59] And did that happen?

[00:59:01] Did did climbers show up because it seems like that was not something

[00:59:04] that a climber would do, but some of them at least maybe once.

[00:59:08] Yeah, some of them.

[00:59:10] Cool. Did they try to talk you out?

[00:59:13] No, but they told me

[00:59:15] that I was just like, yeah.

[00:59:19] Right. I was I was stronger than them.

[00:59:21] I mean, I was like, right.

[00:59:24] Yeah. So, yeah, I cut everything and maybe even more deeply.

[00:59:29] I also.

[00:59:33] Cut every relationship I used to have with myself,

[00:59:37] like all my desire, all my.

[00:59:41] You know, the you know, the me, I don't know how to say that.

[00:59:45] Just like who am I, who I am.

[00:59:47] I mean, nobody knows who we don't know who we are.

[00:59:51] But we we do have some kind of relationship with with with we

[00:59:56] in order to, yeah, go that way or have a feeling that's.

[01:00:00] Yeah. Or have a joy.

[01:00:02] I cut everything, a piece of that.

[01:00:05] One of the key in Christianity is like is the the obedience.

[01:00:10] And yeah, I mean, I could I could feel that I should go left.

[01:00:17] 10,000 people could tell me you should go left.

[01:00:21] I could think by myself, yeah, I should go left.

[01:00:25] But because the gospel or the pope or my superior

[01:00:30] tell me no, the way to be happy and save is to go right.

[01:00:35] I go right. And so I.

[01:00:39] Yeah, it's kind of crazy.

[01:00:40] It's actually kind of crazy.

[01:00:42] So that's that's how I left.

[01:00:44] I live for at least not maybe during these entire 13 years

[01:00:48] because I have some kind of interesting evolution in my Christianity.

[01:00:52] But my first I would say like five or six.

[01:00:55] Yeah, five or six, seven first years in the ministry, I was totally

[01:01:00] like disconnected from every kind of relationship, like.

[01:01:04] From the more outside of myself to the more inside of myself.

[01:01:09] This is cut.

[01:01:11] I do not exist.

[01:01:12] I'm death to this relationship.

[01:01:14] I'm just a life for God and the gospel.

[01:01:19] And so like literally your your, you know, your days are farming,

[01:01:23] you know, basically sustaining this community and praying

[01:01:27] and and that that sort of thing like day after day,

[01:01:30] five to six hours of praying every day.

[01:01:34] Two times a week.

[01:01:35] Wake up during the night for like one to two hours to pray

[01:01:39] in the middle of nowhere in south of France.

[01:01:42] And for the record, it was just like 45 minutes away from the Virgin Gorges.

[01:01:50] But I wasn't even lying.

[01:01:51] And if that if that if that can't draw you away, then nothing is.

[01:01:58] Yeah, like in the middle of nowhere, if I could have gone to the moon

[01:02:02] or like planet Mars to live that life, I would have go.

[01:02:06] So like outside society and yeah, farming,

[01:02:10] cutting trees, doing everything by ourselves.

[01:02:15] I learned I learned so many different trades.

[01:02:18] I mean, I'm I was an electrician as like a trade back in the days.

[01:02:22] But in the monastery, I I learned to be a mechanic plumber.

[01:02:26] Like every every single like trade, I did it.

[01:02:29] And yes, I did that for five years.

[01:02:33] But then after these five or six years, I've been asked from my community

[01:02:38] to start studying theology in a university

[01:02:42] in order to become a priest because the committee was a Catholic priest.

[01:02:47] And because the Catholic theology works

[01:02:51] turned around the priest who gives the sacraments,

[01:02:55] the community needs needed some priests.

[01:02:57] And I was charismatic.

[01:02:59] I was kind of smart.

[01:03:01] And so they choose me to become one of the priests of the community.

[01:03:05] So I starting studying.

[01:03:08] I think I was 30 when I start at the university

[01:03:11] studying philosophy and theology, and I did spend.

[01:03:16] Oh. Oh.

[01:03:18] Well, I'm just I'm saying, oh, because you you mentioned the word philosophy

[01:03:22] and that might that might have been the problem.

[01:03:25] But anyway, keep going.

[01:03:27] But even even in the theology, because when you start studying theology,

[01:03:32] at least in that university, even though it was a kind of conservative university,

[01:03:38] you start to think about the Bible to have like a critical approach.

[01:03:42] And I was always interested in bringing together

[01:03:48] the secular society in which we live

[01:03:52] into the into.

[01:03:56] Yeah, I was I was interesting to to link

[01:04:00] the secular society with with the theology,

[01:04:03] because the Christian theology worked perfectly in the Middle Age

[01:04:07] before the modernity, before the discovery of like

[01:04:11] the evolution of the grandeur of the universe.

[01:04:15] It was was perfect.

[01:04:16] It fit perfectly.

[01:04:17] The Bible fits perfectly into the Middle Age mindset.

[01:04:21] But since modernity, the Bible doesn't fit very perfectly.

[01:04:24] So I was like trying to figure out how to put these two together.

[01:04:30] And I started to think and to study theology

[01:04:35] like super deep, like even like.

[01:04:38] I think I've become like a pretty, pretty kind of good theologian, like and

[01:04:44] and that leads me to become a critical theologian.

[01:04:47] And at the end of these years of theology,

[01:04:52] I discover myself believing that.

[01:04:56] Jesus was more.

[01:04:59] Yeah, a prophet, I would say, even though it's more complicated than that,

[01:05:03] but more prophet we who was anti religious.

[01:05:07] And I discovered that his main goal was to free people from religion.

[01:05:13] But the thing is, like people made that again as a religion.

[01:05:17] So I began to see Christianity more than that,

[01:05:20] more more as a humanism than a religious.

[01:05:25] So and that leads me to quit the monastery, actually, because

[01:05:28] because that was like I was.

[01:05:32] I wasn't I wasn't sharing anymore the vision of that.

[01:05:35] And that was kind of like a first pretty big step.

[01:05:38] And I was.

[01:05:40] I was I was judged as evil, as

[01:05:45] as a demon.

[01:05:46] It was kind of I was it was kind of a tough time to

[01:05:50] to leave that monastery because I was the the betrayer.

[01:05:55] I was. So and even there was just like a very

[01:05:59] I'm kind of proud of myself, like doing that path in that move

[01:06:03] because I was like like truly, truly fucking alone

[01:06:07] and judge as the betrayer,

[01:06:11] the yeah, supporter of Saturn and stuff like that.

[01:06:15] I mean, radical Christian can can bring Saturn on the table super quickly.

[01:06:23] Yeah. And that and that make the end of my 13 years into.

[01:06:28] That monastery kind of thing.

[01:06:29] Yeah. And so I think it must have been around

[01:06:33] or not long after this or maybe a couple of years or something.

[01:06:37] But that I heard from you. Yeah. Right.

[01:06:38] So so. All right.

[01:06:40] So let me like again, sort of the outside looking in.

[01:06:43] So I have this podcast for the last like 13 years now or whatever.

[01:06:47] And honestly, in my brain, I was like, God damn, I wonder what happened to you.

[01:06:53] You know, I knew now I knew I knew about your daughter.

[01:06:57] You know, I know not personally, but I've corresponded over the years

[01:07:01] a little bit with with the mother, your daughter.

[01:07:03] I know that you had that the daughter was born and was growing up.

[01:07:07] And I knew that you disappeared into this monastery.

[01:07:10] But with the podcast, I was like, boy, that would be a story.

[01:07:13] Like if I could fucking if I could find Didier and like find out

[01:07:17] what the deal was, right, because you were gone, you know, like you said, no,

[01:07:21] no contact, nobody knew. No email.

[01:07:23] Anyways. Yeah.

[01:07:25] But then I get this email from you, right?

[01:07:27] Which I was like, holy cow, here he is.

[01:07:31] And you had you had gone through this transformation

[01:07:34] because in the email, you said you were still in the community.

[01:07:37] You were a pastor of some sort.

[01:07:38] And but now you are suddenly like, OK, with digging back into your climbing past,

[01:07:44] which I made up this story in my mind where like you got home and,

[01:07:48] you know, you opened a old box of yours

[01:07:51] and there was like a VHS tape of, you know, the real thing or whatever from.

[01:07:57] And you like put it in.

[01:07:58] You dusted off your VCR and watched it and were like, oh,

[01:08:01] but I'm sure that didn't happen.

[01:08:03] But you were interested in climbing again.

[01:08:05] And you you had dug up my name and and and sent me this email.

[01:08:08] And and yeah, and it was like for me, it was like you emerging,

[01:08:13] you know, out of out of wherever you were, like you could have been in Siberia.

[01:08:18] I don't know. You just suddenly appeared again.

[01:08:19] So anyway, that sort of fits into this narrative somewhere

[01:08:23] that you were now you were now worldly again,

[01:08:26] even if you were still had a foot in this Christian world as well.

[01:08:30] So anyway, go ahead with that.

[01:08:32] I just put that in perspective of our relationship.

[01:08:35] One of the main ideas

[01:08:38] who came with with the discovery of Jesus being more like a humanist

[01:08:44] than a radical prophet talking about the end of the world

[01:08:48] and the salvation of the human soul is that I had to unify my life.

[01:08:54] I had to reconnect all the Russian ship I had cut.

[01:09:00] And and I felt, I mean, that was that was right.

[01:09:05] I mean, that was that was just right in a human way.

[01:09:09] But because I had cut anything normal in my brain,

[01:09:14] this vision of Jesus helped me to reconnect with this

[01:09:19] for everybody else, kind of normal.

[01:09:21] I mean, like, dude, listen to you for sure.

[01:09:24] Like, dude, go see your family, have some friends and go see your daughter.

[01:09:30] I mean, that's I mean, and go talk to your old partner.

[01:09:33] And before my discovery of Jesus being like this.

[01:09:39] Humanist, everything was cut.

[01:09:41] And so my deepest wish at that point

[01:09:45] was to reconnect everything I had disconnect kind of way.

[01:09:49] And of course, the main.

[01:09:52] Yeah, my main

[01:09:57] desire was to see my daughter or like

[01:10:01] let's put it that way, I wanted to to my daughter

[01:10:04] to be able to see her father and maybe it was just the first time

[01:10:09] I realized what I've done, like 13 years later,

[01:10:14] just like, what the fuck?

[01:10:16] You know, just like crazy, like waking up from I would say a nightmare,

[01:10:21] but some kind of like.

[01:10:23] Space time travel where everything was different

[01:10:27] and now you come back and just like, holy shit,

[01:10:31] what have I what have I done, you know? And.

[01:10:35] And yeah, I left the community,

[01:10:39] and I think two days after I wrote to I wrote to Thomasina, my

[01:10:46] older partner, and we actually was in touch since day one.

[01:10:50] A little bit just by just by email for the child, the child support,

[01:10:55] because even though the church was like, oh, yeah, it's fine to leave a baby

[01:11:00] and a woman, the the church, we're going to pay.

[01:11:04] We're going to give some money to to your old partner.

[01:11:08] So I was somehow in we had some kind of relationship,

[01:11:12] but it was just about money.

[01:11:13] And I mean, I was just in my ideas of like radical Christian.

[01:11:18] So it wasn't that human.

[01:11:21] But then I wrote her this email just like, well,

[01:11:23] I don't know if you can believe me, but here's where I am now.

[01:11:28] I quit the ministry.

[01:11:30] Yeah, I'm still a priest, but I mean, I'm I'm not a radical Christian anymore.

[01:11:36] Can I want to maybe talk to you at some point

[01:11:39] if you maybe agree with that?

[01:11:42] And if my daughter wants to meet me, I take the plane tomorrow.

[01:11:48] But having having been writing that no answer

[01:11:52] and then the covid the covid came so

[01:11:56] was no way any way to travel to Canada

[01:12:00] and coming from nowhere without even

[01:12:04] having an answer from Thomasina from my mail.

[01:12:07] I got a card from my daughter

[01:12:10] wishing me a happy Father's Day, and I was like, oh, shit.

[01:12:17] And I think I'm

[01:12:26] yeah, sorry.

[01:12:32] No, no, I'm over here crying to

[01:12:36] my dad.

[01:12:38] And yeah, I mean, this kid like never saw me

[01:12:43] and this kid never had a letter from me.

[01:12:47] This kid never had.

[01:12:50] From me, nothing except money,

[01:12:53] just writing me a card, happy Father's Day.

[01:12:57] And I was like to daddy's I mean, my daughter is like what?

[01:13:02] What a what a person.

[01:13:03] And but that being said.

[01:13:07] My Thomasina didn't talk about my email to my daughter.

[01:13:12] It just come out nowhere.

[01:13:14] And and I think it's only two years after I wrote this email

[01:13:19] that Thomasina wrote me back saying that, well, basically she does.

[01:13:25] She doesn't believe me.

[01:13:26] But I mean, yeah.

[01:13:28] To talk right away to say what you want,

[01:13:32] write me how many pages you want.

[01:13:34] I just don't believe you.

[01:13:36] But I trust I trust.

[01:13:37] Yeah, no trust.

[01:13:38] I mean, fuck you.

[01:13:39] I mean, and I deserve that and nothing else.

[01:13:42] But but at the end of her email, she say, well, but

[01:13:45] but if you still want to see your daughter, I talk to her and she.

[01:13:49] Yeah, she'd like to meet you.

[01:13:51] And I think two weeks after that email,

[01:13:55] the Canadian government opened the borders from the COVID restrictions.

[01:14:01] And I was in Squamish.

[01:14:03] And I saw I saw Thomasina again

[01:14:08] after 15, 15 years and coming off nowhere.

[01:14:13] She welcomed me in her arms.

[01:14:17] We didn't talk, but just we hug each other, like coming from nowhere.

[01:14:21] Because also when when I came to Squamish three years ago,

[01:14:25] I was ready to be hit by every climber in Squamish.

[01:14:31] I was ready to get the finger from every climber in Squamish.

[01:14:36] But I went there to because my daughter wants to see me.

[01:14:38] So I don't give I'm going to.

[01:14:41] I get a yeah, but I was that I'm coming.

[01:14:44] Yeah, because I mean, yeah, the perspective Thomasina is a leader in the community.

[01:14:49] She's yeah. And I mean, so it's like I mean, she's you know, she's a person there

[01:14:54] and everybody knew her story.

[01:14:55] So that's what you're expecting.

[01:14:58] Yeah. And from all over the world,

[01:15:01] I was whether still a legend or some kind of weird dude

[01:15:06] who left for a monastery, and that was it.

[01:15:09] That was still was.

[01:15:11] But in Squamish, no, no, no, no, no.

[01:15:14] In Squamish, I was the anti-legend like

[01:15:19] podium first place.

[01:15:21] And I mean, what else?

[01:15:22] I mean, but I was like, OK, well, I'm going to face that because she deserved me.

[01:15:27] I mean, and it was so disturbing because I mean, I didn't

[01:15:31] met the climbing community, but I still I had met some friends of Thomasina.

[01:15:36] And and then Thomasina was were so welcome.

[01:15:41] It was crazy.

[01:15:42] And I was like, wow.

[01:15:44] Well, thank you.

[01:15:45] And yeah, it was it was very like, like

[01:15:50] and but the thing is, like, I thought it's going to be hard with them

[01:15:54] and easy with my daughter.

[01:15:56] But it was the opposite.

[01:15:57] I mean, meaning my daughter was so awkward for for me.

[01:16:02] And and also obviously and mainly for her.

[01:16:06] It wasn't a good time.

[01:16:07] It was so awkward.

[01:16:08] I mean, I think when she wrote me that card, it was a year a year earlier.

[01:16:14] She was maybe like, you know, 12, 13 and almost maybe like

[01:16:20] like a kid, like still a kid.

[01:16:21] But now she was already a teenager and just like, oh, dude.

[01:16:26] And or maybe like a faraway dad in the middle of nowhere.

[01:16:31] I can picture myself and imagine like, yeah, but now he's here.

[01:16:35] It's just like, oh, so what's up?

[01:16:38] But that starting a relationship with with my daughter

[01:16:41] and it started again, a relationship with Thomasina because we

[01:16:46] spend some time talking about the past for the first time after 15 years

[01:16:52] discovering each other than the other back in the day was drawing down.

[01:16:57] I thought she was just getting stubborn and and.

[01:17:03] And she she thought the same of me, but

[01:17:07] and I was and I was like, how come that she doesn't understand that I'm drawing?

[01:17:11] And she was like, but how come he doesn't understand that I am drawing?

[01:17:15] And we've been able to put that on a table to share our distress.

[01:17:20] And we discover that.

[01:17:22] I was like, oh, that's that's how you leave the thing.

[01:17:25] Well, and she was like, oh, that's that's how you leave the thing.

[01:17:29] And just spend one week there.

[01:17:31] But it was just like leaving Squamish after that week, which is like, well,

[01:17:37] should we maybe, yeah, keep in touch, you know?

[01:17:41] And she say, well, yes, let's keep in touch.

[01:17:45] And six months later, maybe I I moved in Squamish

[01:17:50] to start again a relationship with Thomasina against

[01:17:55] every fucking odds.

[01:17:57] I was coming from nowhere, like absolutely not.

[01:18:01] Absolutely not in in like.

[01:18:05] Just yeah, just like like like a miracle, even though I'm not a Christian anymore,

[01:18:09] but some kind of something like not even think about it like. Yeah.

[01:18:16] Yeah. So let's let her just rest for a second

[01:18:19] because I was quite emotional and numb.

[01:18:22] But, you know, the rest of your life, you know, you rekindled relationships,

[01:18:27] I guess in all places.

[01:18:28] I mean, was your family,

[01:18:31] your family, your brothers, your sisters, you know?

[01:18:34] I mean, it seems like it was probably a period of you

[01:18:38] having to repeatedly humble yourself.

[01:18:42] And, you know, like and ask forgiveness,

[01:18:47] you know, so, you know, it was a period of that.

[01:18:49] And, you know, what was the toll on you?

[01:18:52] Was it? Yeah.

[01:18:53] Just just describe sort of coming back to your family as well.

[01:18:56] And maybe even some of your climbing partners that that, you know,

[01:19:00] these friends that you were you were so tight with and, you know,

[01:19:03] just like I said, it's almost like an AA thing, you know, in the United States.

[01:19:08] Alcoholics Anonymous, this this stage where you

[01:19:11] you basically ask forgiveness or or whatever.

[01:19:14] But yeah, tell me just a little bit about that period.

[01:19:16] And then we'll we'll catch us up to the now.

[01:19:19] Yeah, sure. That we got to just there.

[01:19:22] I didn't technically and verbally ask for forgiveness to anybody, I think.

[01:19:28] But I behave like.