Enormocast 284: Emma Twyford – Getting on With It

[00:00:00] You are listening to The Enormocast

[00:00:03] Alright, alright, settle down everybody, settle down

[00:00:07] Okay, Black Diamond C4, take it away

[00:00:10] Okay, is this thing on?

[00:00:13] Alright everybody, I know you have a few questions after a long winter of ice climbing

[00:00:18] So, yeah, you in the back, the Tread Dead with the SIG

[00:00:22] So it seems like I've had Black Diamond Camelots hanging off my racks since 1987

[00:00:28] How are you still so high on the horse boy?

[00:00:30] Well, that's called evolution my dog

[00:00:32] BD retools and redesigns on the reg

[00:00:35] I'm lighter, stronger with every upgrade

[00:00:38] Too bad we can't say the same about you, huh, Tread Dad?

[00:00:41] I can still hand jam

[00:00:42] Okay, who's next?

[00:00:44] Yeah, the Compaq kid who crushes Tread now

[00:00:46] My mom bought me three sets of ultralight Camelots

[00:00:49] Well kid, those ultralights are sweet

[00:00:52] Light, fast, smooth, all the things

[00:00:54] But not everybody has a mom with a Platinum card

[00:00:57] She's willing to buy her snookums whatever she wants, not do they

[00:01:00] And trust funds don't grow on trees

[00:01:02] They come from decades of swindling the general public out of something

[00:01:05] Maybe even their trees

[00:01:07] And who's got time for that?

[00:01:08] So yeah, ultralights are swell, the Ferraris

[00:01:11] But us C4 Camelots, we're down here in the trenches with you every day

[00:01:15] You know what I'm saying?

[00:01:16] Like the Cam equivalent of your Tacoma

[00:01:18] Just ask the Creek Climbers over there

[00:01:20] Hell yeah brother

[00:01:22] Okay one last question, a guy on the internet that doesn't actually climb

[00:01:26] It says here that a number one C4 holds 12 kilonewtons

[00:01:30] While this other brand holds 12.2 kilonewtons

[00:01:33] Now in a situation where a factor two occurs after a meteor strike

[00:01:37] Resulting in an ionic reverse polarity electromagnetic shockwave

[00:01:41] The question is would my quad fail?

[00:01:43] Hold on a second buckaroo, have you ever actually placed a cam?

[00:01:46] Uh no, alright I gotta go

[00:01:48] But just remember there's only one black diamond C4 Camelot

[00:01:52] We've been here catching you guys the whole time

[00:01:54] Since the beginning

[00:01:56] So quit screwing around and go to blackdiamondequipment.com

[00:01:58] Or our local shop and give us a squeeze

[00:02:00] See what you think, Camelot's rule, imitators drool

[00:02:04] Peace

[00:02:29] Dude, you totally got it next time

[00:02:59] A belayer himself knows what a trinket or a sweet splitter hat

[00:03:03] The ones with the mountain inspired titanium badges

[00:03:06] Will do for a worn out belayer spirit when you've been riding them hard

[00:03:10] Artful jewelry and accessories can be found at peterwgilroy.com

[00:03:14] For your belayer or any partner you've been forgetting to appreciate

[00:03:18] During that singular haze of the next burn

[00:03:21] So consider your belayer at peterwgilroy.com

[00:03:24] One day you might look down and they'll be gone

[00:03:27] Eating that sandwich they've been thinking about since you took on the second bolt an hour ago

[00:03:32] And don't forget to enter Enormo at checkout

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[00:03:57] I have really enjoyed having with you, Remake

[00:04:01] I don't think so

[00:04:03] But we shall continue with style

[00:04:18] Today's show is brought to you by Black Diamond Equipment

[00:04:21] Law Sportiva

[00:04:22] And with support from Maxim Ropes

[00:04:25] Maxim has been keeping the Enormo cast off the deck since 2012

[00:04:29] And now we can also thank the chill folks at Yeti

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[00:04:46] And now back to the show

[00:04:50] Hello and welcome to the Enormo cast

[00:04:56] This is your host Chris Colouse

[00:04:57] It is April 30th, 2024 about 1.45 in the afternoon

[00:05:03] And this is episode 284 of the Enormo cast

[00:05:08] A conversation with UK climber Emma Twyford

[00:05:13] And I'm sure she's gonna cringe at that pronunciation all down here

[00:05:17] Twyford

[00:05:18] Emma Twyford

[00:05:20] But it's too late Emma

[00:05:21] You're on the show

[00:05:22] You agreed to do it

[00:05:23] And now I'll pronounce your name as I wish

[00:05:26] And you don't want me to do a British accent

[00:05:28] I don't really do a good British accent

[00:05:30] Actually my French accent much better

[00:05:33] I actually worked on that

[00:05:35] Not learning French mind you just working on the accent

[00:05:38] So yeah Emma's on the show

[00:05:40] She is an excellent all around rock climber

[00:05:44] And particularly known for her trad climbing

[00:05:47] When we talk about trad climbing

[00:05:50] In where she lives in North Wales

[00:05:52] We're talking about something very specific

[00:05:54] Bold, no bolts, small gear, all that stuff

[00:05:58] It's something that seems to be only practice here in North America anymore

[00:06:01] Very infrequently

[00:06:02] But it's more of a long standing tradition in North Wales

[00:06:05] We get into all that in the interview

[00:06:07] But before that

[00:06:09] I would like to do a PSA for small companies in climbing

[00:06:13] Support them

[00:06:15] Go out of your way to support them

[00:06:17] Okay, I know I've got some big names here

[00:06:19] Running the podcast

[00:06:21] That's okay too

[00:06:22] You know you can't really make cams in your garage anymore

[00:06:25] Or really nice shoes like that

[00:06:27] Or anything like that

[00:06:28] But there is a place in this world for the small business

[00:06:31] And you have to seek them out

[00:06:33] And you have to go for it and go to these smaller companies

[00:06:36] With that in mind

[00:06:37] I want to get you hip to Ale

[00:06:39] My friend Sonya over there

[00:06:41] She's one of the founders

[00:06:43] And this is like you know

[00:06:45] Kind of climber and outdoor oriented hygiene products

[00:06:48] And skin body care products

[00:06:51] Lip balm salves, lotions

[00:06:55] Things like that

[00:06:56] But they've got this like full body wipe thing

[00:06:59] That's like a great big wet wipe

[00:07:01] But it's sort of gentle and scented

[00:07:03] And you know it could be like more refreshing and gentle

[00:07:07] On your naughty bits

[00:07:09] Just in case

[00:07:11] You're out there for a while

[00:07:13] And the mood hits

[00:07:14] You're up on that portal edge

[00:07:16] Tired of just staring at the horizon

[00:07:18] And you know you want to do something else

[00:07:21] Like play a game of UNO

[00:07:23] You want to be clean for UNO

[00:07:25] I think you can clean the rest of your body with it too

[00:07:27] It's not necessarily stuff for like training

[00:07:29] Climbing hard and getting your skin all set up

[00:07:31] It's just to make you feel good too

[00:07:34] It's all at auleoutdoor.com

[00:07:37] Sustainably made, sustainably packaged

[00:07:40] To give a little bit of each sale to

[00:07:42] Access organizations

[00:07:44] And our environmental organization

[00:07:46] So it's all good

[00:07:47] And you know what

[00:07:48] You know it's not a small company

[00:07:50] Like Burt's Bees

[00:07:52] They just pretend

[00:07:53] They put the little guy on there

[00:07:55] With the beard old Burt

[00:07:57] It's a trick

[00:07:58] They're tricking you

[00:07:59] Okay they're tricking you with that

[00:08:01] Guess who owns Burt's Bees

[00:08:03] Clorox dog

[00:08:05] Bleaching lip balm, perfect

[00:08:07] I'm not saying there's bleach in the lip balm

[00:08:09] Don't sue me

[00:08:10] Anyway

[00:08:11] Burt ain't around anymore

[00:08:12] He probably lives in Monaco or something

[00:08:14] Alright support

[00:08:16] Climber owned small businesses

[00:08:18] Like Ale

[00:08:19] And this is an unpaid

[00:08:21] Unaffiliated spray down

[00:08:24] Sonia happens to be the

[00:08:26] Special lady friend of my friend

[00:08:28] And friend of the show Kelly Cortis

[00:08:30] And frankly all of his friends

[00:08:32] And Kelly for that matter

[00:08:34] Don't have any idea how he ended up

[00:08:37] With such a classy lady

[00:08:39] Okay speaking of classy ladies

[00:08:41] Let's get to the interview with Emma Twyford

[00:08:43] Just a joy to talk to

[00:08:45] Made this happen

[00:08:46] She worked really hard to get it done

[00:08:48] We had to reschedule at least once

[00:08:50] A good forecast up there in North Wales

[00:08:52] And when you live up there

[00:08:54] You can't let that go by

[00:08:56] But turned out they got rained on anyway

[00:08:58] Did a couple pitches though

[00:09:00] Man tough stuff up there

[00:09:03] It's half the reason we admire these people

[00:09:05] They get it done despite those conditions

[00:09:08] Let's get to it

[00:09:10] Emma Twyford

[00:09:13] Hey folks

[00:09:14] You know that favorite local shop

[00:09:16] That I go on about at the end of my ads

[00:09:18] Well I say that because brick and mortar

[00:09:20] Climbing shops have long been the L5 vertebra

[00:09:22] In the backbone of climbing culture

[00:09:24] And now Sportiva North America

[00:09:27] Has decided to open an old fashioned

[00:09:29] But new fangled retail store in Boulder, Colorado

[00:09:32] You've heard of Boulder right

[00:09:34] Quaint little town on the front range of the Rockies

[00:09:36] By the way how do you know when a climber is from Boulder

[00:09:40] Oh they'll tell you

[00:09:42] Shout out to Rose for that one

[00:09:44] Anyway the new Sportiva store will feature their most popular gear

[00:09:47] Opportunities to get your grubby hands

[00:09:49] On discounted equipment

[00:09:51] And maybe most importantly

[00:09:53] A chance to try on those shoes before you commit

[00:09:55] Also look for coming events as Sportiva

[00:09:57] Gathers the community around Climbing's

[00:09:59] Best presenters, writers and filmmakers

[00:10:01] So if you swing through Boulder

[00:10:03] And as a climber you know that you eventually should

[00:10:06] Check out the new Sportiva retail store

[00:10:08] On 2100 Broadway

[00:10:10] And see how it holds up against your own

[00:10:12] Favorite local shop

[00:10:17] Tell me about your climbing life at this moment

[00:10:20] Oh wow

[00:10:22] What's your motivations these days

[00:10:26] You've been talking a lot about motivation

[00:10:28] Instagram so maybe that's a good place to start

[00:10:30] I mean it's always

[00:10:32] It goes in ebbs and flows with motivation

[00:10:34] And at the moment

[00:10:36] I'm pretty psyched

[00:10:38] I think there's certain

[00:10:40] I've reached a certain age in life

[00:10:42] Where maybe this is

[00:10:44] The last year really going for it before

[00:10:46] Other big things

[00:10:48] Trying to have kids

[00:10:50] But I think the motivation is always there

[00:10:52] Because there's so much variety in the UK

[00:10:54] And I've got some

[00:10:56] More big Trad projects this year

[00:10:58] In North Wales in particular

[00:11:00] And also some stuff

[00:11:02] Down at Lower Pentru

[00:11:04] And I've got many open projects

[00:11:06] Basically it's never ending list

[00:11:08] This year in particular

[00:11:10] I've got things like

[00:11:12] There's a route called Mission Impossible

[00:11:14] It's in North Wales

[00:11:16] It's E9

[00:11:18] Hazel Finley's climbed it before

[00:11:20] It's one that I find really hard to keep on falling off

[00:11:22] At the moment

[00:11:24] And then just

[00:11:26] Just keeping with the sports projects

[00:11:28] At the moment it's been really wet

[00:11:30] For the last 7 or 8 months

[00:11:32] In North Wales

[00:11:34] So it's just kind of

[00:11:36] Waiting and biding your time

[00:11:38] For those windows of opportunity

[00:11:40] When they come and making sure you're on it

[00:11:42] As soon as it does come good

[00:11:44] The last couple of years have been a bit funny

[00:11:46] So my best friend

[00:11:48] Had a really serious car accident

[00:11:50] About

[00:11:52] A year and a half ago now

[00:11:54] And she ended up brain injured

[00:11:56] And she's on the men now

[00:11:58] But it actually really messed

[00:12:00] With my head and messed with my motivation

[00:12:02] And climbing just went to one side

[00:12:04] Until last year really

[00:12:06] And last year I started to get

[00:12:08] My

[00:12:10] Willingness to try hard

[00:12:12] Come back again and not be scared of falling

[00:12:14] The year before

[00:12:16] I was scared of falling

[00:12:18] Just by a bolt even

[00:12:20] Which was pretty rare territory for me

[00:12:22] Yeah certainly

[00:12:24] Your tread climbing

[00:12:26] Resume is deep and full

[00:12:28] Of all the things that go

[00:12:30] With climbing where you climb

[00:12:32] Was it just this sort of mortality check?

[00:12:34] Did you ever dig around

[00:12:36] And figure out maybe

[00:12:38] What that accident

[00:12:40] Which wasn't climbing related

[00:12:42] In that sense

[00:12:44] Just caused sort of a general fear in you

[00:12:46] I think it definitely

[00:12:48] Shucked me up more than I thought

[00:12:50] It would. I mean I've had a car accident

[00:12:52] Myself back in the past

[00:12:54] I've had near misses on Tread

[00:12:56] When I was really young

[00:12:58] So whether it's a mortality check

[00:13:00] Or that I'm not sure

[00:13:02] I think it was more just all my mental

[00:13:04] Capacity was taken up with spending time

[00:13:06] With my friend

[00:13:08] Making sure she was getting better

[00:13:10] And I think it was just like a really harrowing couple

[00:13:12] Of months where it was quite draining

[00:13:14] Energy-wise

[00:13:16] I mean she didn't speak for the first three weeks

[00:13:18] And then her recovery rate

[00:13:20] It had its ups and downs

[00:13:22] And so I think that took up

[00:13:24] So much of my mental capacity

[00:13:26] That when it came to my own personal life

[00:13:28] And climbing

[00:13:30] The mental capacity just wasn't there

[00:13:32] And it was a little bit of a difficulty to try hard

[00:13:34] Did the sort of

[00:13:36] Recovery from that

[00:13:38] Was it something you did actively

[00:13:40] Or do you feel like it

[00:13:42] Kind of settled down and shifted

[00:13:44] As your friends prognosis got better

[00:13:46] And things settled down and shifted

[00:13:48] Or was it something you had to work on

[00:13:50] Kind of actively

[00:13:52] I think it was definitely something I had to do

[00:13:54] And was Hazel Finley involved in that process at all

[00:13:56] No

[00:13:58] But I mean she is

[00:14:00] She is

[00:14:02] She is friends with the same person

[00:14:04] And so I think

[00:14:06] I had actually a chat with her partner

[00:14:08] Angus where I was like I'm just not feeling it right now

[00:14:10] And there's that

[00:14:12] Definitely that understanding probably between all of us

[00:14:14] What it's like to go through

[00:14:16] Something like that

[00:14:18] And I think

[00:14:20] I actively went out and even

[00:14:22] Though I wasn't able to do

[00:14:24] My projects I was still going

[00:14:26] And taking small falls

[00:14:28] And kind of pushing myself when I could

[00:14:30] So I think

[00:14:32] In hindsight

[00:14:34] That full practice was really beneficial

[00:14:36] Although it wasn't

[00:14:38] Me sending any of my projects

[00:14:40] It was still kind of going out

[00:14:42] And becoming okay with the fear again

[00:14:44] And getting used to taking

[00:14:46] Fools and

[00:14:48] Just that being okay even though

[00:14:50] It was in my own control

[00:14:52] I would just fall off when I didn't feel

[00:14:54] Like I wanted to go any further

[00:14:56] But again your sort of recent history

[00:14:58] And you've been climbing a long time actually

[00:15:00] I wasn't even sure when we set this up

[00:15:02] Like how old you were

[00:15:04] And again

[00:15:06] Having never heard of you

[00:15:08] Actually I mean I had but not really

[00:15:10] Investigated or understood who you were

[00:15:12] It almost felt like oh she's this new

[00:15:14] Phenom that I haven't heard of

[00:15:16] But then I looked at it and it's like

[00:15:18] No you've been around a bit

[00:15:20] Climbing on this for a while

[00:15:22] But also I've noticed and this probably

[00:15:24] And also like a little bit of aging

[00:15:26] And things is that you've talked a bit

[00:15:28] About the fact that

[00:15:30] Your performance ebbs and flows

[00:15:32] As well and that was something

[00:15:34] That you've spent some time

[00:15:36] Thinking about in the last few years

[00:15:38] And I mentioned that history because

[00:15:40] Again reading about you on the internet

[00:15:42] There was this real

[00:15:44] You know kind of

[00:15:46] Push or

[00:15:48] Performance height

[00:15:50] In the end of the teens

[00:15:52] 2018 and was mentioned

[00:15:54] In 2019 climbing 9a

[00:15:56] And I know that when you're in

[00:15:58] Those modes it feels like well this is going to

[00:16:00] Go on forever like I'm just getting

[00:16:02] Better and better and like

[00:16:04] I send one hard thing I'll send another

[00:16:06] Harder thing next and obviously

[00:16:08] That's not the case so

[00:16:10] You know this fear thing and that thing

[00:16:12] Is probably made you sort of reflect on

[00:16:14] Again I asked you about

[00:16:16] Climbing right now today

[00:16:18] Maybe reflecting on who you are

[00:16:20] And how it's a climber and where it fits into your life

[00:16:22] A little bit more would that be

[00:16:24] Is that something that seems accurate

[00:16:26] Of the last few months or a couple years

[00:16:28] Yeah I think obviously

[00:16:30] I had the momentum in 2018

[00:16:32] 2019 and then lockdown

[00:16:34] Happened

[00:16:36] And Covid so

[00:16:38] I think all of that momentum

[00:16:40] That could have carried on

[00:16:42] Just fell by the wayside

[00:16:44] Because we were stuck inside

[00:16:46] You didn't just go into your cellar

[00:16:48] And your voice is strong

[00:16:50] Don't you have a cellar?

[00:16:52] Everyone has cellars in the UK

[00:16:54] Isn't it like a standard issue

[00:16:56] Like evil board inside of a dark

[00:16:58] Cellar

[00:17:00] I think eventually we will get a cellar

[00:17:02] But no we don't have one yet

[00:17:04] Okay

[00:17:06] But that does seem to be the British

[00:17:08] Yeah

[00:17:10] It's this like dark dingy

[00:17:12] It has to be a cellar

[00:17:14] With some techno blasting

[00:17:16] And you can't stand up

[00:17:20] Go ahead sorry I interrupted

[00:17:22] Your serious thought about the pandemic

[00:17:24] Yeah

[00:17:26] I had my friend

[00:17:28] Who had the car accident

[00:17:30] I was living with her at the time

[00:17:32] I'd just gone through a break up

[00:17:34] And so we were training together

[00:17:36] We'd like set each other little challenges

[00:17:38] We do stupid pull up challenges

[00:17:40] One leg of squat challenges

[00:17:42] Occasionally

[00:17:44] Get out bouldering close to home

[00:17:46] But that was it

[00:17:48] And alcohol kicked in a little bit during lockdown

[00:17:50] But

[00:17:52] I think I came out of it

[00:17:54] Not too bad

[00:17:56] And like they said it's just been ebbs and flows

[00:17:58] Since then

[00:18:00] I had a pretty

[00:18:02] Scarring experience

[00:18:04] Trying to go and do

[00:18:06] Repeat one of Dave McLeod's roots

[00:18:08] And it's up in Scotland

[00:18:10] It's the longest sea cliff climb

[00:18:12] Called the Long Hope

[00:18:14] Which weighs in about

[00:18:16] E10 or E11

[00:18:18] And I went up with

[00:18:20] A guy called Robbie Phillips

[00:18:22] And we

[00:18:24] It's the most chossey climb

[00:18:26] I think I've ever been on

[00:18:28] Like sandstone choss

[00:18:30] Really bad gear

[00:18:32] Really snappy rock

[00:18:34] And you get these birds called fulmars

[00:18:36] And they nest with one egg

[00:18:38] But they don't actually have a nest

[00:18:40] So the protection mechanism is to bomb it on you

[00:18:42] So you're there trying to

[00:18:44] Think about climbing on snappy rock

[00:18:46] With bad gear

[00:18:48] And trying to avoid these birds that want to

[00:18:50] Bomb it on you to defend themselves

[00:18:52] So it was an

[00:18:54] Interesting experience

[00:18:56] We got to

[00:18:58] I think we got to the penultimate pitch

[00:19:00] Before the last hour pitch

[00:19:02] And you have to crawl through a tunnel

[00:19:04] Or Robbie was trying to crawl through this tunnel

[00:19:06] And there were some fulmars

[00:19:08] Nesting and eventually he retreated

[00:19:10] And he was like we just can't go any further

[00:19:12] And that

[00:19:14] Weirdly messed with my sight for a little bit

[00:19:16] Because I went back onto normal

[00:19:18] Tread climbing and didn't trust any of my gear

[00:19:20] For a while

[00:19:22] But then that came back into

[00:19:24] Getting some reasonable

[00:19:26] Roots done after that

[00:19:28] It just took a while to become confident

[00:19:30] That

[00:19:32] Not every hold was going to snap on me

[00:19:34] And not every piece of gear looked terrible

[00:19:36] Basically

[00:19:38] And it sounds like

[00:19:40] Some of your messaging

[00:19:42] And you have a degree in sports science

[00:19:44] That's correct

[00:19:46] You have some deeper background

[00:19:48] Than just personal experience

[00:19:50] But it seems like a lot of this

[00:19:52] Has also been

[00:19:54] A bit of

[00:19:56] You'd call it straight self care

[00:19:58] Or it's almost like self forgiveness

[00:20:00] In a way that's been something

[00:20:02] That you've sort of preached this idea

[00:20:04] That you can kind of let yourself

[00:20:06] Feel crummy

[00:20:08] Or I think you said had a pity party

[00:20:10] For a little bit

[00:20:12] Your motivation to go down it

[00:20:14] Well and it's interesting I think about it

[00:20:16] Because we're both

[00:20:18] In scenes

[00:20:20] Climbing scenes

[00:20:22] I'm a bit out of it but I've been

[00:20:24] In scenes where

[00:20:26] You're worthless if you don't get up every day

[00:20:28] And want to go climbing

[00:20:30] And I think

[00:20:32] With well seen and kind of some of the

[00:20:34] Crew that you seem to be in

[00:20:36] With

[00:20:38] You don't waste a day

[00:20:40] You try hard all the time

[00:20:42] But secretly none of us can do that

[00:20:46] But you know what I mean

[00:20:48] You have this external pressure to do all that

[00:20:50] So what was the realization

[00:20:52] Around some of these ideas

[00:20:54] That it's okay if Emma doesn't

[00:20:56] Climb on this soggy climb today

[00:20:58] Or whatever it happens to be

[00:21:00] I think it goes through

[00:21:02] Probably all the way back to the start

[00:21:04] In that I grew up climbing

[00:21:06] In the Lake District

[00:21:08] With my dad on traditional rock climbing

[00:21:10] And I think

[00:21:12] They kind of always instilled this

[00:21:14] Love for climbing from a very young age

[00:21:16] And that I could do what I wanted to do

[00:21:18] So I competed for a bit

[00:21:20] I got glandular fever

[00:21:22] Decided the comments were no longer for me

[00:21:24] And went back to

[00:21:26] Outdoor climbing

[00:21:28] And I think

[00:21:30] It's gone through that stage where

[00:21:32] Having been ill, having not

[00:21:34] Climbed for a whole year at that time

[00:21:36] That it's also okay not to climb

[00:21:38] And you can't always be

[00:21:40] At your best all the time

[00:21:42] I mean there might be some like

[00:21:44] Super wonder kids out there

[00:21:46] That can be at their best all the time

[00:21:48] But at some point you're going to need a break

[00:21:50] And then in some ways

[00:21:52] I think when you do have a break or you're not always performing at your best

[00:21:54] That's when the imposter syndrome kicks in

[00:21:56] And you're like

[00:21:58] Should I be doing this

[00:22:00] And there's always going to be that

[00:22:02] Element of pressure

[00:22:04] That you either put on yourself

[00:22:06] Or it comes from sponsorship

[00:22:08] If you're not performing at your best all the time

[00:22:10] You're like I should be

[00:22:12] And it's learning to branch away from the should

[00:22:14] And then getting to

[00:22:16] It's okay

[00:22:18] You're okay to like not

[00:22:20] Be at peak performance all the time

[00:22:22] And it will come back

[00:22:24] It does come back it just takes longer sometimes

[00:22:26] Than others

[00:22:28] We're talking about the lake district

[00:22:30] You climb in north wales

[00:22:32] You live in north wales right

[00:22:34] Yes that's right

[00:22:36] So these names in these places

[00:22:38] Have so much connotation

[00:22:40] For anybody who pays attention to climbing

[00:22:42] But maybe we don't understand them

[00:22:44] Here in the states the way we ought to

[00:22:46] So let's go back a little bit

[00:22:48] And tell me about the lake district

[00:22:50] Like what's the vibe there

[00:22:52] The vibe that your dad instilled

[00:22:54] With you and also

[00:22:56] An incredibly important mentor to you

[00:22:58] So tell me about that

[00:23:00] As your introduction and what that place

[00:23:02] Represents even still

[00:23:04] Where the heck is it

[00:23:06] So the lake district is up in the north

[00:23:08] Of the UK

[00:23:10] Then borders on to Scotland

[00:23:12] It's really beautiful

[00:23:14] And it's the home of some of the hardest

[00:23:16] Tried climbing in the UK

[00:23:18] You've got the likes of

[00:23:20] Dave Burkett who's put up so many

[00:23:22] Of the hard, tried routes in the lake district

[00:23:24] And

[00:23:26] It's a bit of a spread out scene

[00:23:28] It's just really beautiful there

[00:23:30] I would highly recommend it

[00:23:32] To anyone who's coming over to visit

[00:23:34] Apart from the weather

[00:23:36] Of course

[00:23:38] And we moved there when I was

[00:23:40] Very young

[00:23:42] I was a baby and my dad joined

[00:23:44] The cocomathomite and rescue team

[00:23:46] And it's all voluntary

[00:23:48] In the rescue team and that's how he got into

[00:23:50] Climbing

[00:23:52] And so it was through him and his friends

[00:23:54] Like Mike Park who they

[00:23:56] Started to take me out and take me under their wing

[00:23:58] And my first

[00:24:00] Tried route seconding in a full body

[00:24:02] Harness at the age of seven

[00:24:04] Was a route called Donkeys Ears

[00:24:06] Which is a dip so it's kind of

[00:24:08] Just above scrambling territory

[00:24:10] And I think I was half dragged up

[00:24:12] It at this age

[00:24:14] But I think from there

[00:24:16] That love of it just grew

[00:24:18] And I think by the age of

[00:24:20] Nine I was second in routes probably

[00:24:22] By the age of ten I was starting to lead

[00:24:24] Some of the routes as well

[00:24:26] And I think one of the things they instilled

[00:24:28] In me from a very young age was how to be safe

[00:24:30] Especially when I was going through

[00:24:32] The teenage years of advancing quite rapidly

[00:24:34] And maybe

[00:24:36] Just getting a bit too cocky at certain times

[00:24:38] Running it out where I shouldn't have been

[00:24:40] Using dead trees for

[00:24:42] BLAs sometimes

[00:24:44] And just like all the advice

[00:24:46] They instilled from a very young age

[00:24:48] It's always stuck and I think another

[00:24:50] Big mentor for me that I was very lucky

[00:24:52] To grow up with was James McCaffey

[00:24:54] Alright I have that name down

[00:24:56] Let's see. The Dark Lord

[00:24:58] But also one of the best

[00:25:00] Tried climbers in the UK

[00:25:02] Hands down

[00:25:04] In the world

[00:25:06] We can say the world

[00:25:08] His on-citing ability

[00:25:10] On Tried is unreal

[00:25:12] I think it's unparalleled

[00:25:14] And I was very lucky

[00:25:16] Like my dad approached

[00:25:18] Caffey and was like do you fancy taking

[00:25:20] This young girl out Tried climbing

[00:25:22] I think he was about eighteen and I would have been

[00:25:24] About thirteen at the time

[00:25:26] And Caffey always remembers

[00:25:28] Be laying me on my first E1

[00:25:30] And me taking falls on it straight away

[00:25:32] Basically

[00:25:34] Or not my first E1 that I led but like

[00:25:36] Just one of them

[00:25:38] And he just remembers me not being scared

[00:25:40] However my also my

[00:25:42] Probably closest near death experience

[00:25:44] Was with Caffey as well

[00:25:46] And this was me trying to lead

[00:25:48] My first E4

[00:25:50] Which was

[00:25:52] Pretty hard territory at the time

[00:25:54] At the age of fourteen

[00:25:56] And I think this is

[00:25:58] A piece of advice that now sticks with me

[00:26:00] That means that I haven't had any serious accidents later in life

[00:26:02] Was that

[00:26:04] You don't always have to go for it

[00:26:06] If you're not feeling it

[00:26:08] I didn't listen to this advice whatsoever

[00:26:10] So I got on this E4

[00:26:12] After having a not a great time

[00:26:14] On the E1

[00:26:16] And Caffey remembers

[00:26:18] That he was watching this fourteen year old girl

[00:26:20] Questing off up

[00:26:22] On this fairly dirty green

[00:26:24] Tread route

[00:26:26] Having to use holes that no one else uses

[00:26:28] And he just says I got on the long run out

[00:26:30] And it looked like I was about to fall off

[00:26:32] At the end of the run out

[00:26:34] With these two guys who are on the E1

[00:26:36] And the other guy right at us just teetering

[00:26:38] Sideways on the ledge in case I fell off

[00:26:40] And went past them or hit them

[00:26:42] And he just, yeah, he thought I was going to die

[00:26:44] And my dad had been at the bottom of the crag

[00:26:46] Watching and he'd walked off

[00:26:48] So

[00:26:50] But you didn't

[00:26:52] Is that the moral of the story?

[00:26:54] The moral, I mean I'm still here

[00:26:56] I didn't fall off

[00:26:58] I managed to get some gear in

[00:27:00] And at that point I made the sensible decision

[00:27:02] To retreat off the route

[00:27:04] And I think it was

[00:27:06] It was a near miss that I learned a lot from

[00:27:08] Okay

[00:27:10] So it was a near miss that sank in

[00:27:12] As opposed to like whatever

[00:27:14] I don't know what you guys were worried about

[00:27:16] I was fine, but yeah you had the internal

[00:27:18] Thought of like wow that was a close one

[00:27:20] It definitely was a close one

[00:27:22] And a reminder that

[00:27:24] You're not invincible basically

[00:27:26] I mean you couldn't have been very big

[00:27:28] You probably could have just caught you right

[00:27:30] Possibly

[00:27:32] Maybe

[00:27:34] But I mean let me ask you a little bit

[00:27:36] Then about, well let me ask this about

[00:27:38] Your dad, your dad like was watching this

[00:27:40] And like I gotta go, I mean you know

[00:27:42] Do you think he ever was like

[00:27:44] Why did I introduce my

[00:27:46] Sweet girl to this

[00:27:48] Sport that's gonna get her killed

[00:27:50] You know, did he have his regrets

[00:27:52] You know what, I kind of haven't really

[00:27:54] Asked him in what he thought about

[00:27:56] At that time but

[00:27:58] I don't think he has any

[00:28:00] Regrets about introducing me to the sport

[00:28:02] I mean he tried to introduce my brother

[00:28:04] And sister to climbing as well but they hate it

[00:28:08] So I think it's something that

[00:28:10] We have a bond over that we share a love

[00:28:12] For and I guess take him out

[00:28:14] Climbing from time to time now

[00:28:16] When I'm up in the late districts

[00:28:18] Sometimes that's more harrowing

[00:28:20] For me to be honest

[00:28:22] I think

[00:28:24] I think he now respects

[00:28:26] My decision making

[00:28:28] He may have questioned it from

[00:28:30] Time to time over the years

[00:28:32] But he does understand that I know

[00:28:34] Roughly what I'm doing

[00:28:36] Yeah, I mean I'm certain he's got to be proud

[00:28:38] Of what you've accomplished as a climber as well

[00:28:40] I mean you know dreams do come

[00:28:42] True sort of a thing so that's pretty

[00:28:44] Awesome and yeah

[00:28:46] You've managed to get this far without

[00:28:48] Without some of the things

[00:28:50] That can go with

[00:28:52] Running out hard climbing but

[00:28:54] Let me ask you then a little bit about

[00:28:56] You got to like position ourselves

[00:28:58] Before we go any further

[00:29:00] With the e-scale

[00:29:02] And keep in mind that I'm a climbing

[00:29:04] Nerd

[00:29:06] Have been climbing for 30 some years

[00:29:08] Pretty avidly

[00:29:10] I studied and read up at it and I still

[00:29:12] Don't have a feel for what this grading system is

[00:29:14] And I know there's been

[00:29:16] A recent little sped of

[00:29:18] Do we even know what it means

[00:29:20] Coming out of the UK anymore

[00:29:22] So

[00:29:24] Well and the thing is

[00:29:26] So then I read and I think

[00:29:28] I talked about that kind of gulf between

[00:29:30] Us and you guys

[00:29:32] In a way because yeah I read

[00:29:34] Okay she did this E8

[00:29:36] When she was this years old or she flashed

[00:29:38] This E8 I'm like I don't know

[00:29:40] Is that like 510? Is it awesome

[00:29:42] Or is it not awesome

[00:29:44] So can you maybe try to position

[00:29:46] At least how you think about it

[00:29:48] When you get in especially into the hard grades

[00:29:50] Yeah I mean it's probably easy

[00:29:52] To get it from a hard grade perspective

[00:29:54] But obviously you've had

[00:29:56] James Pearson

[00:29:58] And those guys trying to do the E grader

[00:30:00] To make sense of the E

[00:30:02] Grading British system

[00:30:04] Yeah that's what I'm talking about

[00:30:06] I'm like if you guys don't even get it

[00:30:08] Then how the fuck are we supposed

[00:30:10] To get it? It's definitely pretty

[00:30:12] Confusing and messed up

[00:30:14] It's really hard to make sense of it

[00:30:16] So you basically

[00:30:18] Get your British tech grade

[00:30:20] And that can range anywhere from like

[00:30:22] 3 plus to

[00:30:24] Normally like

[00:30:26] English 7B

[00:30:28] The problem is with that British tech grade

[00:30:30] You can then get a range of difficulty

[00:30:32] Within that along with the E grade

[00:30:34] So I'm going to take

[00:30:36] A good grade

[00:30:38] Let's start at the end of the E grade

[00:30:40] Scale E1

[00:30:42] You could get E1 5A

[00:30:48] Which means the climbing will be moderately easy

[00:30:50] But the gear could be quite terrible

[00:30:52] So you're going to get

[00:30:54] Which number talks about the gear

[00:30:56] And which number talks about the difficulty

[00:30:58] So the E1 grade

[00:31:00] Talks about the gear

[00:31:02] And the 5A talks about the difficulty

[00:31:04] And then that could go into

[00:31:06] 5B medium

[00:31:08] Gear slightly harder tech grade

[00:31:12] 5C harder tech grade

[00:31:14] But bomber gear

[00:31:16] So that would, an E1 5C could be

[00:31:18] Like a crack climb that's quite physically hard

[00:31:22] But is essentially quite safe

[00:31:24] Because there's lots of gear to place in it

[00:31:26] It's really freaking confusing

[00:31:30] And then you just get so much variation

[00:31:32] Like I think a classic one

[00:31:36] Is that you can get

[00:31:38] I'm going to take

[00:31:40] A crag in the

[00:31:42] In the late district

[00:31:44] And you get an E6 6C

[00:31:46] And the French sport grade of that is 7C

[00:31:50] And then you can get an E8 6C

[00:31:52] And the French grade of that is 8A plus

[00:31:56] Just as a couple of examples

[00:31:58] Of where the tech grade can fall

[00:32:00] And this is where it gets so confusing

[00:32:02] Is that the French difficulty

[00:32:04] Grade of that can vary so substantially

[00:32:06] In one English

[00:32:08] 6C tech grade

[00:32:12] And this is why we have confused

[00:32:14] The hell out of ourselves basically

[00:32:16] With the trad grading system

[00:32:18] And no one knows what it means anymore

[00:32:22] Right, and then when you get

[00:32:24] Like get into like the

[00:32:26] Things that have gotten

[00:32:28] You and other people frankly

[00:32:30] Know the variety

[00:32:32] You get up into the E9s and 10s

[00:32:34] And things like that

[00:32:36] And does it always mean that those

[00:32:38] Are relatively scary

[00:32:40] And dangerous

[00:32:42] No

[00:32:44] So if I go through a few examples

[00:32:46] Of them the first ever E9 that I did

[00:32:50] Gets a French grade of 7C

[00:32:52] But you wouldn't

[00:32:54] Desperately want to fall off in many places

[00:32:56] On it

[00:32:58] The gear is like tiny

[00:33:00] Like micro

[00:33:02] What was that?

[00:33:04] That was rare lichen

[00:33:08] And it's basically a load of micro

[00:33:10] Tiny brass offsets

[00:33:12] That protect you

[00:33:14] On the first bit

[00:33:16] One person has fallen off the top bit

[00:33:18] And the gear gets slightly bigger then

[00:33:20] But not much

[00:33:22] Up to

[00:33:24] Something like big issue

[00:33:26] Where the French grade is 8B

[00:33:28] Apart from the start

[00:33:30] You're pretty safe the entire way

[00:33:32] You're just going to take some reasonable

[00:33:34] Falls into space

[00:33:36] So it's run out but say

[00:33:38] And then

[00:33:40] Things like once upon a time in the southwest

[00:33:42] Which myself and Hazelnut

[00:33:44] And Maddie of Climb

[00:33:48] It's a lot of like

[00:33:50] A friable nature of climbing

[00:33:52] So the French grade is 8A

[00:33:54] But all the gear is quite small

[00:33:56] And you still get some reasonable runouts

[00:33:58] Like you wouldn't desperately want to fall off it

[00:34:00] But you can

[00:34:02] Alright well that's a little bit helpful

[00:34:04] I mean

[00:34:06] It's good enough

[00:34:08] In my sense

[00:34:10] To know that the game you're playing

[00:34:12] Is hard climbing

[00:34:14] The French hard climbing

[00:34:16] Or our 5

[00:34:18] 13B or whatever

[00:34:20] Those numbers translate to

[00:34:22] But on traditional gear

[00:34:24] And occasionally as you said

[00:34:26] You desperately don't want to fall off

[00:34:28] And that's why you get into

[00:34:30] Rehearsal and head pointing

[00:34:32] And things like that

[00:34:34] I guess it's good enough to know that that's

[00:34:36] What we're dealing with

[00:34:38] And to parse it out anymore probably

[00:34:40] Is almost useless

[00:34:42] I think it's one of those things

[00:34:44] That we'll never quite understand

[00:34:46] Yeah well it's funny

[00:34:48] I wrote down A5 next to this

[00:34:50] On my thing

[00:34:52] You probably don't know this

[00:34:54] But sort of famous for a

[00:34:56] Video that was posted

[00:34:58] Over a decade ago where I slag off

[00:35:00] Those ratings

[00:35:02] Kind of stupid and pointless

[00:35:04] And my big point

[00:35:06] Is that A5

[00:35:08] Is kind of a joke because

[00:35:10] We never know

[00:35:12] Because no one ever falls off of it

[00:35:14] Supposedly you fall off and you die

[00:35:16] But people almost never fall off of it

[00:35:18] At the wrong time

[00:35:20] And so we don't know

[00:35:22] And I was wondering are E-grades

[00:35:24] Kind of like that

[00:35:26] Yeah if this happened but we don't really know

[00:35:28] Because no one ever does fall off

[00:35:30] Of people falling off and hitting the ground

[00:35:32] And stuff so I don't know

[00:35:34] I guess it's probably not quite the same thing

[00:35:36] But it has that feel of like

[00:35:38] It's this idea that we haven't

[00:35:40] Necessarily scientifically tested in any way

[00:35:42] It's just a feeling you have

[00:35:44] When you're on it kind of a deal

[00:35:46] Yeah I think there's some roots that obviously

[00:35:48] Have that myth of like oh you can't fall off this

[00:35:50] And there's some from experience

[00:35:52] That you know you definitely can't fall off it

[00:35:54] And then some like

[00:35:56] Where I guess a big one

[00:35:58] The last couple of years was Lexican in the Lake District

[00:36:00] That Neil Gresham

[00:36:02] And it was like

[00:36:04] You probably don't want to fall off this

[00:36:06] But then Steve McCleod took the massive ride

[00:36:08] Most of the way down the crag

[00:36:10] So it's like oh you can fall off it

[00:36:12] But you still probably don't want to

[00:36:14] Right

[00:36:16] And Rhapsody

[00:36:18] Dave McLeod's one's a classic as well

[00:36:20] Like 11

[00:36:22] But it's just a really big fall

[00:36:24] And a lot of people have taken that ride

[00:36:26] Many many times

[00:36:28] Yeah I mean

[00:36:30] Are you

[00:36:32] Not currently

[00:36:34] Let's say

[00:36:36] Because we were just talking about how you're sort of up and down with

[00:36:38] With your track climbing a little bit

[00:36:40] But let's say

[00:36:42] Historically are you the type of person

[00:36:44] That's okay with

[00:36:46] The big ass fall that's

[00:36:48] Not going to hit the ground

[00:36:50] I think so I mean I've definitely taken a few

[00:36:52] A few reasonable sized falls

[00:36:54] I've definitely took one of the rides

[00:36:56] A big issue in Pembroke

[00:36:58] Yeah I've definitely taken

[00:37:00] A few off the track but it's been

[00:37:02] On the safe routes that have been hard

[00:37:04] Right

[00:37:06] The other one I'm trying at the moment Mission Impossible

[00:37:08] Definitely taken a few off that as well

[00:37:10] But I think it's just

[00:37:12] There's certain routes where you want to be confident

[00:37:14] That you're not going to fall

[00:37:16] And get yourself into that headspace

[00:37:18] And then others where

[00:37:20] It's kind of okay

[00:37:22] It's just focusing on trying hard rather than

[00:37:24] Worrying too much about the falls

[00:37:26] Right

[00:37:28] Historically too

[00:37:30] Is it easy

[00:37:32] Or not easy let's just say this

[00:37:34] Is it

[00:37:36] Something that you've always been able to do

[00:37:38] Like find this quote unquote headspace

[00:37:40] Because I think most

[00:37:42] Honestly most climbers

[00:37:44] Can't I mean if you look at it

[00:37:46] Kind of statistically

[00:37:48] This headspace of like oh I'm fine

[00:37:50] This is really hard but I'm not going to fall

[00:37:52] And I can't fall

[00:37:54] Is it something you had to train into

[00:37:56] Where you sort of like instilled

[00:37:58] Just by your background and climbing

[00:38:00] Where does that quote unquote headspace come

[00:38:02] From for you do you think

[00:38:04] I think that headspace comes from a lot

[00:38:06] Of experience and really building up

[00:38:08] The grades gradually

[00:38:10] Rather than trying to rush anything

[00:38:12] Just having that experience of learning

[00:38:14] What a good gear placement looks like

[00:38:16] I mean I guess in that sense

[00:38:18] I do a lot of the American climbing

[00:38:20] Because a lot of the American climbing

[00:38:22] Is can placements and you plug it in

[00:38:24] And it's like that is absolutely bomber

[00:38:26] Whereas a lot of the UK

[00:38:28] Climbing is really fiddly

[00:38:30] Weird wires and gear

[00:38:32] And you're like is that bomber

[00:38:34] I'm not entirely sure

[00:38:36] And so it's just building up

[00:38:38] That experience of trusting

[00:38:40] The gear that you're placing

[00:38:42] Knowing when it's good, knowing when it's not

[00:38:44] Learning about your no fall zone

[00:38:46] Like whether you're on absolutely

[00:38:48] Bomber rock with a fall

[00:38:50] Into space or whether you're on some

[00:38:52] Really chossy sea cliff

[00:38:54] Climb that you don't really want to fall

[00:38:56] Off because all the gear is terrible

[00:38:58] And the rock quality is not great

[00:39:00] So I think just through

[00:39:02] Building up an array of

[00:39:04] Experience on different rock types

[00:39:06] It kind of teaches you how

[00:39:08] To find that headspace pretty quickly

[00:39:10] And I think that's where cast advice

[00:39:12] Comes back in and know the days

[00:39:14] In a good headspace and can

[00:39:16] Push it in that sense

[00:39:18] And the days when I'm not

[00:39:20] And maybe that's the day I go sport climbing

[00:39:22] Or another day where I just spend some time

[00:39:24] Working the moves on a route

[00:39:26] Or pick a safe one basically

[00:39:28] That it doesn't matter if I fall off or not

[00:39:30] To me it is a bit of a superpower

[00:39:32] And you may not think of this

[00:39:34] As that but it's like

[00:39:36] You know it's really about doubt

[00:39:38] Right it's about doubting yourself

[00:39:40] Doubting and you know you can

[00:39:42] Doubt this external thing

[00:39:44] This piece of gear or become

[00:39:46] But then you also have to have the confidence

[00:39:48] In your climbing ability

[00:39:50] You know because you don't have to test

[00:39:52] That piece if you don't fall off

[00:39:54] And so if you climb up above it

[00:39:56] But for most of us those doubts

[00:39:58] Instantly start when our feet get

[00:40:00] Above the piece of gear or even

[00:40:02] Our waist or harness a little bit

[00:40:04] So it's an interesting thing

[00:40:06] Because it really comes back to that

[00:40:08] It's like shouting out or calming

[00:40:10] Out those doubts

[00:40:12] And I really honestly believe

[00:40:14] It's a superpower and you can learn it

[00:40:16] Does that headspace quote unquote

[00:40:18] Bring you sort of comfort in other parts

[00:40:20] Of your life are you able to

[00:40:22] Shake your doubts and other

[00:40:24] Things that you do

[00:40:26] I think sometimes

[00:40:28] I guess climbing

[00:40:30] Will always give me if it's going well

[00:40:32] Will always give me a confidence in life

[00:40:34] When it's not going well sometimes

[00:40:36] I'll go into a little bit of a shell

[00:40:38] I'll have my self pity party for a while

[00:40:40] Or for a couple of days

[00:40:42] And I think

[00:40:44] I think because

[00:40:46] Like where I've grown up

[00:40:48] Everything I've done has been

[00:40:50] In quite a male dominated environment

[00:40:52] So you have to build this

[00:40:54] Mental deafness

[00:40:56] And kind of just go for it and have confidence

[00:40:58] And that won't always be there

[00:41:00] Sometimes I'll have question

[00:41:02] Myself and I'll have doubts

[00:41:04] I guess a good example of that is when

[00:41:06] I was in a high setting and

[00:41:08] I definitely had doubts about

[00:41:10] Whether I belonged there or not

[00:41:12] And my confidence for that goes up and down

[00:41:14] I think it definitely

[00:41:16] Impacts both

[00:41:18] Both impact on each other

[00:41:20] If life is going well

[00:41:22] If I'm in a good place

[00:41:24] Climbing tends to be going well

[00:41:26] And vice versa

[00:41:28] And both can impact each other

[00:41:30] I think

[00:41:32] As happy as it sounds

[00:41:34] And subconsciously I do it much more in my

[00:41:36] Climbing now

[00:41:38] But do it in day to day as well

[00:41:40] Is breath work and practice

[00:41:42] And I've got a couple of cracking photos

[00:41:44] Of me actually

[00:41:46] Falling through on what I say

[00:41:48] And I guess the biggest one

[00:41:50] That comes in from life into

[00:41:52] The trad, into staying calm

[00:41:54] Is

[00:41:56] The trout pout

[00:41:58] Or it's the horse lips

[00:42:00] And

[00:42:02] I look back sometimes at the photos

[00:42:04] That have been taken climbing and go

[00:42:06] I actually do what I say

[00:42:08] Alright

[00:42:10] And this has been on

[00:42:12] Extremely run out

[00:42:14] Roots where you kind of don't want to fall

[00:42:16] And I'm like, I am doing

[00:42:18] That trout pout

[00:42:20] There's the O in the lips

[00:42:22] Where it's like okay I am calming myself

[00:42:24] And so things that you

[00:42:26] Do practice at home

[00:42:28] Not climbing

[00:42:30] And that's a conscious practice

[00:42:32] That you do

[00:42:34] At home but then it just comes out

[00:42:36] Unconsciously

[00:42:38] Because you've trained yourself when you're on a

[00:42:40] Lead that the rest of us would lose

[00:42:42] On my own

[00:42:44] Yeah, well that's cool

[00:42:46] Yeah and it's like sometimes it takes

[00:42:48] Looking back at certain things or

[00:42:50] It actually being captured for you to see

[00:42:52] Certain things that you do

[00:42:54] And certain things that I coach to other people

[00:42:56] It is something

[00:42:58] That I also do myself

[00:43:00] It's not just like, do as I say

[00:43:02] Not as I do

[00:43:04] So I mean let's, I want to talk a little bit about

[00:43:06] You know I just called it sort of the superpower

[00:43:08] And the rarity of it

[00:43:10] And also you know

[00:43:12] You've grown up in this world

[00:43:14] Climbing in general

[00:43:16] You know has always had this sort of

[00:43:18] Non

[00:43:20] There's not in parity with women and men

[00:43:22] But when you get into the trad climbing world

[00:43:24] Especially when you started

[00:43:26] Some kind of this rare person out there

[00:43:28] But before we get into that

[00:43:30] I mean what is it

[00:43:32] Do you think that you sort of seek

[00:43:34] Or you demand from this

[00:43:36] Experience of

[00:43:38] Tread climbing where I feel like

[00:43:40] You know you're this crack

[00:43:42] Sport climber as well

[00:43:44] You've climbed 9A

[00:43:46] You've climbed 8C and Oleana

[00:43:48] That I read, I mean all over the world

[00:43:50] You're all over Europe anyway

[00:43:52] You've climbed hard sport climbing

[00:43:54] But it almost feels like maybe that's like a break

[00:43:56] In a way or like something you do

[00:43:58] For vacation fun

[00:44:00] So what do you seek from this trad climbing

[00:44:02] Because most of us just want the vacation fun

[00:44:04] All of them

[00:44:06] I guess for me sometimes it is vacation fun

[00:44:08] On the trad climbing

[00:44:10] It's not always hard

[00:44:12] Perfect

[00:44:14] I mean I guess this is where

[00:44:16] Like some of the Alpine stuff comes in

[00:44:18] Mixed in with the trad is

[00:44:20] Obviously there's the challenge

[00:44:22] But like looking for an aesthetic line

[00:44:24] Especially if I'm pushing myself

[00:44:26] Like those probably come to the forefront

[00:44:28] But the other side of it is

[00:44:30] Just being outside

[00:44:32] And being somewhere where

[00:44:34] There's not many people

[00:44:36] It's really tranquil, it's really beautiful

[00:44:38] And just getting a moment

[00:44:40] To actually appreciate where you are

[00:44:42] And I think that's the flip side

[00:44:44] Of the other days of intrad

[00:44:46] Is all the Alpine

[00:44:48] Is just getting up high

[00:44:50] And having a nice easy

[00:44:52] Day out

[00:44:54] With good friends as well

[00:44:56] And just also

[00:44:58] Taking other people out

[00:45:00] Having a nice day with them

[00:45:02] And that means that most of the time

[00:45:04] Then my challenge level is reduced

[00:45:06] But it's just a day out connecting

[00:45:08] With a good friend

[00:45:10] Or with my fiance

[00:45:12] And teaching him more about

[00:45:14] How to trad climb

[00:45:16] And how to be safe on British trad

[00:45:18] And I think that's also where

[00:45:20] I find peace

[00:45:22] Is just being in the outdoors

[00:45:24] I've grown up in the outdoors

[00:45:26] For most of my life, whether that was out

[00:45:28] Walking from the age of two with my dad

[00:45:30] Or whether it was out climbing

[00:45:32] And I think because of going back

[00:45:34] To my dad, because of him

[00:45:36] Because of going out walking

[00:45:38] And because of what he's instilled

[00:45:40] In me like this appreciation

[00:45:42] Of nature, always telling me all about

[00:45:44] These different birds that we spot

[00:45:46] And look out

[00:45:48] Telling me a bit about the history

[00:45:50] Of where we are and I think that's

[00:45:52] Just been passed on

[00:45:54] And I think I have a lot of appreciation

[00:45:56] For him instilling that in me

[00:45:58] And for me not just not always

[00:46:00] Wanting to go after a challenge

[00:46:02] Or to be always pushing myself

[00:46:04] Hard, it's just to be out there

[00:46:06] And appreciating it.

[00:46:08] So let me go a little at that question

[00:46:10] A little bit differently

[00:46:12] Is that

[00:46:14] You're not just talking about

[00:46:16] Your health work and being scared

[00:46:18] And pushing out doubt

[00:46:20] And you talked about how you don't

[00:46:22] You have to look back at pictures

[00:46:24] To realize you were doing it

[00:46:26] Because you've, you know

[00:46:28] And we I think talk about this

[00:46:30] And climbing a lot, you've entered this

[00:46:32] I think it's a little cliche to say flow state

[00:46:34] Because it's a little bit different than that

[00:46:36] That's sort of more of a performance thing

[00:46:38] But it is this headspace

[00:46:40] To use that phrase again

[00:46:42] And to be able to see the level of consciousness

[00:46:44] Obviously because you have no memory

[00:46:46] Of these things happening

[00:46:48] Your body was just doing it

[00:46:50] Is that, I mean do you find yourself

[00:46:52] You know reflecting on like

[00:46:54] Seeking those sorts of things

[00:46:56] That you get again, you know

[00:46:58] The fear or the risk

[00:47:00] Or whatever you want to say

[00:47:02] Is an ingredient

[00:47:04] In this feeling

[00:47:06] That I think drag climbers

[00:47:08] And I look at like, you know

[00:47:10] At this point, so where do you think

[00:47:12] About that and sort of seeking

[00:47:14] Those situations that other people

[00:47:16] Literally like 99.9%

[00:47:18] Of the population of the world

[00:47:20] Avoid, I mean we do

[00:47:22] Our whole lives are about avoiding

[00:47:24] That kind of fear and risk

[00:47:26] And it makes climbers like you

[00:47:28] And climbing in general sort of special

[00:47:30] That way.

[00:47:32] That's definitely a conversation

[00:47:34] That me and Kafe have had

[00:47:36] I mean I've watched Kafe at young age

[00:47:38] Go soloing a lot

[00:47:40] Much to my parents' disappointment

[00:47:42] And worry. I think they see him

[00:47:44] As like a second, an extra son

[00:47:46] Almost and

[00:47:48] I think

[00:47:50] They used to scare the hell out of them

[00:47:52] And

[00:47:54] He doesn't solo as much

[00:47:56] Any more as he's getting older because

[00:47:58] The risk versus the reward has reduced

[00:48:00] And

[00:48:02] There's more fear there

[00:48:04] And I think that's something inevitably

[00:48:06] That I've got older and know to see as well

[00:48:08] Is the

[00:48:10] Now I'm in my late 30s that the desire

[00:48:12] To go out and constantly do that

[00:48:14] Isn't there as much as maybe it was

[00:48:16] A couple of years ago

[00:48:18] And so it's more just about having

[00:48:20] Maybe one or two projects

[00:48:22] That do that

[00:48:24] And knowing that my mental capacity

[00:48:26] To do that many times

[00:48:28] Isn't there as much as it was

[00:48:30] And so

[00:48:32] I do find myself

[00:48:34] Going more towards the hard, safe

[00:48:36] Tried route now

[00:48:38] Than perhaps I did before

[00:48:40] And I think that is

[00:48:42] A choice that I'm aware of

[00:48:44] Definitely over the last couple of years

[00:48:46] And

[00:48:48] I just think it's inevitable

[00:48:50] That the desire to

[00:48:52] Seek risk does

[00:48:54] Diminish a little bit, especially

[00:48:56] As you have

[00:48:58] More responsibilities

[00:49:00] And there's other people involved

[00:49:02] You have to make sensible choices

[00:49:04] Yeah, wait till you become a mom

[00:49:06] Yeah

[00:49:10] Sounds like that's something you're looking forward to

[00:49:12] But even as a dad

[00:49:14] And this is totally different

[00:49:16] But yeah I'm scared of everything

[00:49:18] It becomes quite selfish

[00:49:20] And that's not to say it wasn't selfish

[00:49:22] Before because it is

[00:49:24] Like one

[00:49:26] Wrong

[00:49:28] Decision or a whole breaking

[00:49:30] And that could be completely life changing

[00:49:32] And that doesn't

[00:49:34] Just impact me, it impacts

[00:49:36] Your family

[00:49:38] It can impact close friends

[00:49:40] Yeah what we do is very selfish

[00:49:42] In some respects

[00:49:44] And I think

[00:49:46] It's nice that it's admired

[00:49:48] But it's also like

[00:49:50] There is this narcissistic

[00:49:52] Side to it as well

[00:49:54] And yes

[00:49:56] I think it's also there

[00:49:58] Is that risk and reward

[00:50:00] Versus reward, is it truly worth it

[00:50:02] For the most part we get away with it

[00:50:04] But it doesn't take much for that to go wrong

[00:50:06] I kind of want to talk about women

[00:50:08] In track climbing and women in climbing

[00:50:10] In general because

[00:50:12] You represent a little bit

[00:50:14] Of a small cohort at the levels

[00:50:16] That you're doing it

[00:50:18] But maybe a way to do that would be

[00:50:20] To talk a little bit about north whales climbing

[00:50:22] We talked about the lake district

[00:50:24] And then north wells is this whole other

[00:50:26] Animal so to speak

[00:50:28] And again it comes with

[00:50:30] Tons of different imagery

[00:50:32] And myths that

[00:50:34] Sometimes I think it's like

[00:50:36] Just like any other climbing scene

[00:50:38] And sometimes I think it's like

[00:50:40] Lord of the Rings

[00:50:42] And the orcs scaling the walls

[00:50:44] Of Helms Deep or whatever

[00:50:46] Who knows

[00:50:48] Deep dark pubs are super important

[00:50:50] Lots of drinking

[00:50:52] Is all things I think about

[00:50:54] When I have terrible weather

[00:50:56] I think that's spot on

[00:50:58] Lots of cafes

[00:51:00] And lots of scary horrible

[00:51:02] Roots and that also I know

[00:51:04] Not to be entirely true so

[00:51:06] Tell me a little bit about the north whale

[00:51:08] Scene that you're deep into

[00:51:10] And you probably

[00:51:12] Have been deeper in it

[00:51:14] At times and maybe push it away

[00:51:16] A little bit at other times

[00:51:18] So tell me a little bit about this story

[00:51:20] I mean his story to climbing scene

[00:51:22] What the world knows really

[00:51:24] I mean I guess one of the things

[00:51:26] With UK Tread Climbing in general

[00:51:28] Is just the history of it is so rich

[00:51:30] And that's nothing different in north whales

[00:51:32] There's all these myths

[00:51:34] And legends surrounding routes

[00:51:36] In north whales and that's what makes

[00:51:38] I think British Tread Climbing

[00:51:40] So special

[00:51:42] Is just this rich history

[00:51:44] And all these characters

[00:51:46] Especially back in the 70s

[00:51:48] And 80s

[00:51:50] And so the north whale scene

[00:51:52] Is pretty vibrant

[00:51:54] It's a bit more close-knit

[00:51:56] Slightly less spread out than the late district

[00:51:58] Funnily enough

[00:52:00] James McCaffey also lives in north whales now

[00:52:02] So he's like

[00:52:04] That makes complete sense

[00:52:08] It's where you go for those sorts of things

[00:52:10] Yeah I think

[00:52:12] Particularly if you've grown up in the mountains

[00:52:14] The north whales is the next one

[00:52:16] That makes sense

[00:52:18] I mean I obviously spent time

[00:52:20] In the Peak District and Sheffield as well

[00:52:22] At university but north whales

[00:52:24] Made more sense for me in the long run

[00:52:26] So when I first moved to north whales

[00:52:28] I was going out bouldering a lot

[00:52:30] Very different to Tread Climbing

[00:52:34] And I would go out a lot

[00:52:36] With some of the strong guys

[00:52:38] And I would be the only girl

[00:52:40] Going out bouldering with them

[00:52:42] This is despite there being

[00:52:44] A lot of strong women

[00:52:46] In north whales

[00:52:48] And I think I asked some of them

[00:52:50] Once I was like why aren't you coming out

[00:52:52] With us

[00:52:54] And they said we just don't feel good enough

[00:52:56] And I was like well that's ridiculous

[00:52:58] You're all bouldering

[00:53:00] Like the eight

[00:53:02] You're easily strong enough to be out

[00:53:04] And it doesn't really matter everyone will go

[00:53:06] Somewhere that's good for everyone

[00:53:08] It made me stronger just by going out

[00:53:10] With them and having to get on with it

[00:53:12] And

[00:53:14] Now the women's bouldering scene

[00:53:16] Is fantastic

[00:53:18] And you find

[00:53:20] More strong women going out

[00:53:22] Climbing than boys

[00:53:24] Half the time

[00:53:26] We've had events like women of whales

[00:53:28] Recently at one of the climbing walls

[00:53:30] And

[00:53:32] It's really come to the forefront a lot more

[00:53:34] But it's taken

[00:53:36] A decade of me being here for that to happen

[00:53:40] That's even less in Tread Climbing

[00:53:42] And sport climbing

[00:53:44] There's a few, there's a handful

[00:53:46] And hopefully that will increase because

[00:53:48] You see more women out and about

[00:53:50] Climbing and climbing well

[00:53:52] Whether that's me or someone else

[00:53:54] You look at who's relatable

[00:53:56] And where you can make your achievements

[00:53:58] And

[00:54:00] I think it's just

[00:54:02] Getting that to trickle down

[00:54:04] Bolderings more easily accessible

[00:54:06] And less terrifying

[00:54:08] So it's the one where

[00:54:10] It's come to the forefront a lot more

[00:54:12] Can be

[00:54:14] Unless you're going on some crazy high balls

[00:54:16] Well, you know

[00:54:18] I've thought about this whole idea

[00:54:20] Of like

[00:54:22] Accessibility of climbing

[00:54:24] It's such a

[00:54:26] Issue of our times

[00:54:28] Trying to open

[00:54:30] And encourage climbing in different economic groups

[00:54:32] Different

[00:54:34] Ethnic backgrounds, whatever

[00:54:36] Different colors of skin, all these different things

[00:54:38] It really is like the prominent issue

[00:54:40] At the moment

[00:54:42] And trying to invite more women into the sport

[00:54:44] Has been something we've done for

[00:54:46] A decade pretty actively as well

[00:54:48] I always had this attitude

[00:54:50] That I found climbing

[00:54:52] When I, and I had found this

[00:54:54] Like secret thing

[00:54:56] And like a child

[00:54:58] I wanted it to be secret

[00:55:00] It was mine, you know

[00:55:02] And this is say 30 years ago

[00:55:04] And I didn't care who else found it

[00:55:06] You know, and it

[00:55:08] And I think about like

[00:55:10] Sort of encouraging women

[00:55:12] Or anyone for that matter

[00:55:14] Into this kind of track climbing

[00:55:16] That we've been sort of talking about

[00:55:18] Again, there's track climbing that's totally safe

[00:55:20] Like you said in the states

[00:55:22] Crack climbing which I think is more specific

[00:55:24] But fits the bills

[00:55:26] Is completely safe if done well

[00:55:28] And done right

[00:55:30] But sort of encouraging people to join

[00:55:32] You in this kind of world

[00:55:34] That gets scary

[00:55:36] It seems a little fraught

[00:55:38] In the sense of like

[00:55:40] It may be something where you encourage people

[00:55:42] To find climbing and then

[00:55:44] This is one area of the sport that maybe

[00:55:46] It has to just

[00:55:48] Happen organically or naturally

[00:55:50] Because it would be terrible to encourage somebody

[00:55:52] To be like, yeah you should really

[00:55:54] Get into this and try that

[00:55:56] And then have something happen

[00:55:58] And sort of have that like as

[00:56:00] Do you know what I'm saying

[00:56:02] Walking away from that horrible

[00:56:04] Tradly like wondering like

[00:56:06] Did I just you know

[00:56:08] Has the path led to this and this is where it ends

[00:56:10] Kind of a thing so I mean what are your thoughts

[00:56:12] On that as far as like

[00:56:14] The specificness of the type

[00:56:16] Of climbing that we've been sort of chatting

[00:56:18] About being maybe one of those

[00:56:20] Areas that you have to find it

[00:56:22] In yourself to a certain extent

[00:56:24] I think it has to be quite an organic

[00:56:26] Choice to some extent and obviously

[00:56:28] Going to the accessibility side of it

[00:56:30] Trad is the most one of the more

[00:56:32] Inaccessible sides but you've got so much

[00:56:34] More gear to buy for a starter

[00:56:36] Or you've got to right know

[00:56:38] The right people to get into it

[00:56:40] Or you've just got to have that desire

[00:56:42] That you actually want to try to climb

[00:56:44] And take those risks

[00:56:46] And for a lot of people

[00:56:48] As you said that's not something

[00:56:50] That many people want to do

[00:56:52] And so

[00:56:54] I think it's just someone's

[00:56:56] Going to make that informed choice

[00:56:58] Of themselves and you can't push someone

[00:57:00] To want to do that

[00:57:02] Like you can, my dad

[00:57:04] Couldn't push my brother or my sister

[00:57:06] To get into climbing

[00:57:08] And that's a choice

[00:57:10] That they made versus the choice

[00:57:12] That I made that I did want to

[00:57:14] Go all the way and basically

[00:57:16] Take the risks

[00:57:18] And so

[00:57:20] I think

[00:57:22] It's just like listening out

[00:57:24] And if someone's keen

[00:57:26] To do that

[00:57:28] And if they're not

[00:57:30] They're not going to be able to

[00:57:32] Go into the wing

[00:57:34] Or do they point them in the right

[00:57:36] Direction of a course

[00:57:38] With an experienced instructor

[00:57:40] We have many in the UK

[00:57:42] That do all that sort of stuff

[00:57:44] And I'm about to start trying

[00:57:46] To take, do my awards

[00:57:48] So that I can do more coaching

[00:57:50] And instructing work in the future

[00:57:52] And I've got one girl

[00:57:54] That's an opportunity but she

[00:57:56] Loves it

[00:57:58] So I've been taking her under my wing

[00:58:00] A little bit and taking her out

[00:58:02] And it feels like I'm a responsible parent

[00:58:04] For someone else's kid at the moment

[00:58:06] That's what I was wondering

[00:58:08] That was not totally what I was wondering

[00:58:10] Like okay, here we go

[00:58:12] It's obviously some

[00:58:14] Of the stuff that I've done with her

[00:58:16] It's been making sure that she understands

[00:58:18] Her placements on the rock

[00:58:20] Having a top rope back up

[00:58:22] And being able to be like

[00:58:24] Getting her to sit on gear

[00:58:26] Learn to fall on it but all backed up safely

[00:58:28] I think the big one for me

[00:58:30] Was when we just went for a days climbing

[00:58:32] Together by ourselves

[00:58:34] And I took her on

[00:58:36] A classic sea-cliff climb

[00:58:38] But

[00:58:40] It's something I made a character judgment

[00:58:42] Over, she's got a very level head

[00:58:44] For her age, very mature

[00:58:46] Were there things that could have been done

[00:58:48] Slightly differently? Possibly

[00:58:50] But at some point you also have to

[00:58:52] Like give that person respect

[00:58:54] And trust them and show that

[00:58:56] You respect what

[00:58:58] That they know what they're doing

[00:59:00] And I think that's something that

[00:59:02] My dad and Cap and everyone gave to me

[00:59:04] Was a respect that from a young age

[00:59:06] I could make those decisions

[00:59:08] And yes, I would sometimes get them wrong

[00:59:10] But I would learn from them

[00:59:12] At the same time

[00:59:14] And so it's

[00:59:16] Just going with what someone wants to do

[00:59:18] And whether they want to try to climb or not

[00:59:20] So be it if they want to sport climb

[00:59:22] Or if they just want to bold it

[00:59:24] But that's all good

[00:59:26] Like go and do what makes you happy

[00:59:28] Basically

[00:59:30] I was going to ask you if you were sort of

[00:59:32] Like stepping into a mentor role

[00:59:34] You know, it's almost like

[00:59:36] You got to pay it back in some ways

[00:59:38] Right because so many people

[00:59:40] We talked about a few of them in here

[00:59:42] Have helped you along that way

[00:59:44] And I think the scene

[00:59:46] Can be super discouraging

[00:59:48] I think probably, you know

[00:59:50] Are you ready, you know

[00:59:52] Who's this little girl that's showing up

[00:59:54] To do these hard routes kind of a thing

[00:59:56] I don't know if you've ever encountered that

[00:59:58] 100%

[01:00:00] I think you never to get it at some point

[01:00:02] Particularly in the late district

[01:00:04] Back when I was a kid

[01:00:06] And I mean this is

[01:00:08] Too many years ago

[01:00:10] Yeah, people would look at me as

[01:00:12] This young girl coming up

[01:00:14] And be like, oh, what's she doing

[01:00:16] Or that must be easy because

[01:00:18] There's a teenage girl on it

[01:00:20] Yeah

[01:00:22] And I think

[01:00:24] It used to frustrate me a little bit

[01:00:26] And I mean I got it when I was an adult

[01:00:28] And living in Sheffield as well

[01:00:30] Maybe not on the Trad but

[01:00:32] If I was at the wall

[01:00:34] Some guys would just come up afterwards

[01:00:36] And get on thinking it's going to be easy

[01:00:38] And the satisfaction comes from the fact

[01:00:40] That they get completely shut down on it

[01:00:44] And off as we say

[01:00:46] And so it's just like

[01:00:48] Well, yeah, I'm all for you basically

[01:00:52] Right, right. That's awesome

[01:00:54] Well, yeah, I mean

[01:00:56] I've talked to Hazel a few times

[01:00:58] Consider a friend

[01:01:00] It sounds like there was quite a bit of

[01:01:02] Parallel sort of action

[01:01:04] Between the two of you guys

[01:01:06] As far as her coming up

[01:01:08] In it as well with her dad

[01:01:10] I think because we both started on Trad

[01:01:12] I mean she's a couple of years younger than me

[01:01:14] But probably in a similar

[01:01:16] Era is that you did

[01:01:18] There was a lot more of that

[01:01:20] I think now there's a bit more understanding

[01:01:22] That there are lots of strong female

[01:01:24] Climbers out there

[01:01:26] And so there's less of an expectancy

[01:01:28] To like

[01:01:30] You're going to see these female crushes

[01:01:32] And maybe have an appreciation more

[01:01:34] Of what they're getting on could be quite hard

[01:01:36] Or

[01:01:38] On Trad routes as well

[01:01:40] But yeah, I think deafening myself

[01:01:42] And Hazel probably both experienced that

[01:01:44] A lot when we were younger

[01:01:46] And this like unassuming

[01:01:48] Young teenage girls

[01:01:50] Rocking up and just getting on

[01:01:52] Some crazy Trad routes

[01:01:54] Yeah, that sounds I mean it sounds cool

[01:01:56] Is what it sounds

[01:01:58] Just like anytime

[01:02:00] You know what I always say

[01:02:02] When people smash the state

[01:02:04] It's cool

[01:02:06] And that's like puts things forward

[01:02:08] In a lot of ways

[01:02:10] You know you mentioned

[01:02:12] This cohort that

[01:02:14] Did once upon a time in the southwest

[01:02:16] That came

[01:02:18] To our

[01:02:20] Over here across the pond

[01:02:22] Perview with

[01:02:24] Hazel's assent and then with Anna's

[01:02:26] And Hazelnuts

[01:02:28] Was it interesting to you that

[01:02:30] This outsider came in and did something like

[01:02:32] That because I think

[01:02:34] That's a little bit unusual

[01:02:36] But I think that's a little bit

[01:02:38] Not in some sort of evil sense

[01:02:40] But some of you didn't come up in that scene

[01:02:42] You know you guys have

[01:02:44] The background, the history

[01:02:46] It's all in your cells

[01:02:48] It's like in your DNA

[01:02:50] And I think it's a little bit unusual

[01:02:52] I mean even with men

[01:02:54] It's been noted for years

[01:02:56] When a Frenchie

[01:02:58] As it were comes over back in the day

[01:03:00] And pisses everybody off

[01:03:02] By sending something hard

[01:03:04] And then, you know, I think

[01:03:06] That's going to be a little bit

[01:03:08] A lot of men

[01:03:10] That are women

[01:03:12] Like you have to get a little bit

[01:03:14] Of the men, but they're all

[01:03:16] In this room

[01:03:18] And it's not just a room

[01:03:20] That's going to be a lot of

[01:03:22] Men in the room

[01:03:24] I mean it's like

[01:03:26] You know, you don't know

[01:03:28] When you're in this room

[01:03:30] You're all being thrown

[01:03:32] to come and try it and be like, oh this is... it was a pretty wild introduction I think for her.

[01:03:38] I mean she had Tom mentoring her. I think one of the crazy things for me was seeing them taking

[01:03:46] so many falls on this route. I think maybe where it was kind of like, oh this feels crazy as having

[01:03:52] had so little previous tried experience. I think one thing you can say from myself and Hazel

[01:03:58] is we've had like a very gradual build up and understanding of gear placements and falling

[01:04:04] on Trad. So I mean it was kind of pretty wild to see it all unfold basically and I do have a lot

[01:04:11] of respect for the fact that she just went balls deep in basically and then I just got on with it

[01:04:19] and it was like, I think for me like and I've seen it with a lot of young British

[01:04:26] Trad climbers as well. Like the new generation is like, it's got to happen now. It's got to be quick.

[01:04:33] There's no build up and no real understanding and I think that's where it came in. Like there was no

[01:04:41] real understanding of gear placements like going on sighting, really learning to trusty gear.

[01:04:47] And I think for me I was like, I sometimes question the full understanding of the

[01:04:52] Trad gear placements like what to fall on, what not to fall on. But that did come through in her videos

[01:04:57] as well. She was like, yeah this placement that I placed Tom said it's terrible or whatever.

[01:05:03] And I was just like, oh that's pretty, I mean it's pretty ballsy at the same time.

[01:05:08] But my mind was blown a little bit basically but I also have like respect for just going after it.

[01:05:16] I've been talking to some folks here in the States because there are,

[01:05:19] there's a bunch of, you just mentioned sort of young people coming up into this thing and

[01:05:24] there are several examples here in the States of some pretty young dudes in particular,

[01:05:29] in this case guys that are just like coming out of the gates, Trad climbing.

[01:05:35] This sort of generation of people who've grown up in the gym are like hitting the

[01:05:40] hard routes now on the outdoors. And I had this notion that like

[01:05:46] there's this tradition and this thing that it's all in your DNA. But there's also this sort of

[01:05:51] freedom if you can get around the risk part of it, the sort of ignorance part of it I guess,

[01:05:57] of not having the baggage. And not, this person I'm talking about it that way I just

[01:06:03] interviewed for another podcast, Will Moss is a 19 year old and he learned how to

[01:06:07] Trad climb and then I think he said he led like a five three and then a five six and then he led this,

[01:06:14] you know, this 12 in the gunks was his third Trad lead. You know, and I was also similarly

[01:06:20] like what the fuck like dude, but then talking to him like his approach is very logical and

[01:06:27] he didn't really cut corners in the sense of like understanding the gear, but he cut all

[01:06:33] the traditional corners which he was supposed to climb five eight for a year and then five nine

[01:06:37] for a year. And then you know, he just went straight to it. And are you seeing any of that kind

[01:06:41] of thing in your area as far as these kids are so strong? And then they kind of like figure

[01:06:49] out gear and it's all. Yeah, I mean, I think there's definitely been a bit of it over the years.

[01:06:54] Maybe my view of it is quite old or like the way I was brought into it now it was quite

[01:06:59] old fashioned. They're like build up gradually by think also back then there was more of the

[01:07:05] leader mustn't fall. And so you kind of like that that was ingrained from a young age and then

[01:07:11] you something realized that you can fall actually and it's totally fine. But I mean, depending

[01:07:17] on the root obviously, but I think a classic one for me back in the day was like, or not that

[01:07:24] long ago was Jim Pope. And he's like ridiculously strong. But I think one of his first trade rates

[01:07:29] was like an E six head point and I can't quite remember that probably where that equates into

[01:07:36] an American grades, but it's pretty serious like there's but there's not much gear on that.

[01:07:40] So it's basically a solo to the to the top. And then you place one bit of gear.

[01:07:45] And so you'd like top rope to it and then led it. And so back then I thought about that

[01:07:51] and I was like, well, that hasn't really taught you any about anything about tried climbing or

[01:07:55] like what gear is but then he's gone on to lead some really hard routes and become an impressive

[01:08:01] tried climber in the last few years for sure. On top of the common climbing. Another big one has

[01:08:07] been a guy called Matt Wright in the UK. And he really hadn't done much tried climbing but

[01:08:14] his club sport climb nine a and then came along and led lexicon there's probably one of his

[01:08:19] early trade routes. And so I think it's just like you look at it now, there's more people training,

[01:08:25] there's more strong people inevitably they're going to come in at much harder grades on tried and

[01:08:30] just be so much more capable of having enough in the tank to lead them and for it not to be

[01:08:36] as sketchy or as dangerous as someone who's maybe only sport climbing like seven C and

[01:08:40] they're trying at the limit on a trade route. I just think there's just some people who've

[01:08:45] just got so much more fitness now and so much more strength. Yeah, it just yeah come kind of

[01:08:50] comes down to that like I said if you don't need to worry about the gear if you if you never fall

[01:08:54] off. So if he's so far beneath your limit, physics like in terms of the physicality of the route

[01:09:01] then then yeah, I mean there's this ridiculous video don't know if you've seen it of Jim

[01:09:05] Pope on a trade route where I think his foot pops on and it's on a great route. It's

[01:09:11] pretty dangerous trade route, great route as well. He basically just one arm lock off campus

[01:09:15] is up on this great route and I like there's no one else who'd be able to do that. I mean

[01:09:21] all there's very few people who'd be able to do that. Are you just watching it go? This is nuts.

[01:09:27] He just did it. He just did it for the time. Yeah, it's just for the Instagram likes.

[01:09:34] Right. Yeah, I'm going to pretend my foot pops here on these jugs and go to the top.

[01:09:39] Well, that's interesting. I mean it's like I said there's so much tradition and

[01:09:46] a lot of ways there's been these rites of passage that people had to do. I mean the same

[01:09:52] in any climbing scene so to speak but when you throw in these risky routes

[01:10:00] the mythology and the legends are I mean you don't have those kind of legends about

[01:10:05] like an 8B somewhere, sport climbs somewhere. There's just so much power and package that comes with that.

[01:10:11] I think it must be fascinating just to kind of watch again people break those rules and get

[01:10:18] around them and do things that were impossible even a few years ago. I think it's where the

[01:10:24] future of climbing whether that's tried climbing or not is going. I mean actually

[01:10:30] speaking to Hazel and Angus recently they were in Saint-Léger and they said they were at this crag

[01:10:36] where I think the French kids team had turned up and half of them were like on-site in 8B and 8C

[01:10:41] and it was like a daily regular occurrence. They were just like this is ridiculous but then

[01:10:47] I mean perhaps controversially because of all this history, because of all the traditionalism

[01:10:53] in the UK maybe that's also like slowed down that progression and now we're getting to that

[01:10:58] and you're seeing what is possible. The great thing I mean the thing I've always admired about

[01:11:05] climbing there is this you know the fact that you guys do, I use the word ring but I like

[01:11:13] you ring so much out of like the rock that you have the conditions that you have.

[01:11:18] We just talked to Will Boese and he was talking about having to go hours and hike hours

[01:11:25] this 9A in Scotland, the hunger I think it was called. You know yeah and just like what he had

[01:11:31] to go through to do it and I think it's led to again just so much lore and so much kind of grit

[01:11:39] to use the pun out of UK climbers that I mean the world admires you guys in this very special

[01:11:45] way that we don't apply to anybody else in the world. It's this like weird stubborn resilience

[01:11:51] I think and that you just have to make the most of it when it comes and do all these crazy hikes to

[01:12:03] roots and hope that you get to do it quickly and if not it's going to be a long epic basically

[01:12:10] hiking again and again and again or just being shut down for the rest of the year because it rains.

[01:12:16] Well you just I mean we rearranged this interview a little bit because you were like we have a good

[01:12:20] forecast. I want to go climbing and I was like no problem I know those don't come around a lot

[01:12:25] and then you mentioned how well we didn't quite and then you got soaked anyway. Yeah I mean we had like

[01:12:31] we had a good two and a half maybe three hours of dry weather unfortunately my friend had actually

[01:12:37] set off on lead on the route as it came in on us. Luckily he fell off probably because I

[01:12:44] don't think he'd been able to top out the route it was just all starting to come over and then yeah we

[01:12:50] got drenched. It was a good skin soaking basically and it's like that a lot. It's either really humid,

[01:13:02] really midgy, really wet, too hot. We like to complain as well the conditions are never right.

[01:13:09] That's okay. I live on the western slope where it's dry like dry and sunny like you

[01:13:16] you know can't even dream about because it's unattainable and we still complain so don't

[01:13:22] we still complain but so you were you were an excellent youth climber you switched gears

[01:13:28] but you're also a root setter now and so one of the things that's interesting and I think

[01:13:35] maybe it is part of again what we were just talking about with climbing kind of limits on

[01:13:41] climbing availability in some ways is that you know I think and this has changed some but there's

[01:13:47] been a lot of like one trackness in climbing where you're a track climber and you don't sport

[01:13:52] climb or you don't climb indoors or whatever and it seems you know for a long long time

[01:13:59] UK climbers Sheffield climbers you know are famous in particular for really embracing

[01:14:04] training and also embracing sort of plastic climbing when necessary and things like that.

[01:14:09] Do you still kind of feel like that built a base for you that you still call upon

[01:14:14] and then how did you get into root setting as this supposed track?

[01:14:20] So I think when I was younger because outdoors was my first love I would be one of those

[01:14:27] probably calm climbers that didn't really train in the summer because it's too nice

[01:14:31] to be indoors but I also think that definitely did help me with like a bit of mental toughness.

[01:14:39] I definitely had anxiety when I was competing and I learned how to deal with that from a very young

[01:14:45] age and how to control it. I think it also helped me because I had people to compete against

[01:14:51] to push me and one of my big rivals when I was competing as a young age was a girl called Gemma

[01:14:57] Powell and she got training from the GB coach at the time and so it really pushed me to get

[01:15:05] better so I was like following her in her footsteps basically. And I think I mean I also did a lot

[01:15:12] of other sports when I was younger like I did a lot of fell running and that I think has

[01:15:17] helped me a lot with my climbing particularly the endurance side of it and being able to

[01:15:21] hang on forever which is useful in Trad. I think I had a love hate relationship with competitions

[01:15:28] and they definitely weren't very much fun anymore after having Glangiala Fever or

[01:15:35] Mono as it's called because I basically took a complete year out of climbing focused on my

[01:15:41] A levels which is just before university and decided that obviously was more important

[01:15:48] at the time. I think the love for competition climbing never came back after that really

[01:15:54] and maybe that's an ego thing I'd gone from doing pretty well just before I got ill to having

[01:16:00] start from scratch basically and I just think it never fully recovered for me that enjoyment of

[01:16:06] common climbing and so it wasn't too difficult a choice to give that up and focus on the

[01:16:11] outdoors but when I was in Sheffield and trying to decide what I wanted to do with my life to know

[01:16:18] whether this is the right decision or a bad decision it became root setting and so I think

[01:16:24] like having climbed from a young age having a good understanding of movement having competed

[01:16:29] it all helped me in that sense. I have been root setting now for 10 years or 11 years

[01:16:36] it takes its toll but it also as long as you don't get injured it is a good base for climbing

[01:16:43] and training. I wouldn't say I get much training in on top of root setting it's very much a case

[01:16:51] of being flexible and listening to my body in that sense and picking days when I can train and

[01:16:57] accepting there are days I can't train. Is that still a big motivation for you or has

[01:17:03] it ever been? You know some people like live almost a train you know and the climbing is like a side

[01:17:09] like where do you fit on that spectrum of hating it not wanting it to do it to being obsessed with

[01:17:15] that are you somewhere in the middle I've definitely always mostly been a climbers climber and seen

[01:17:21] climbing is the best form of training and and being outdoors is the most important thing for me.

[01:17:26] I think obviously you get every everyone has different loves in in in the sport and

[01:17:32] people some people just love training I think I find it hard to do training that isn't

[01:17:36] climbing basically but I will do it and I've definitely found it to be particularly useful

[01:17:45] when I can't climb on top of like the setting or I can't I don't want to do anything else

[01:17:52] that's going to hinder climbing outside and I guess the fingerboard is my biggest stereo

[01:17:58] of training that I get to utilize most frequently one of the things maybe I can late the party on

[01:18:04] this one is doing a bit more of the antagonistic and weight training stuff but I've also found

[01:18:11] that is probably one of the things that impacts my next day of route setting the most as well

[01:18:16] especially if it's a really physical day it feels really hard to set the next day

[01:18:21] just like being sensible with it as much as anything and maybe if I wasn't setting maybe

[01:18:28] I'd be training a lot more but but I am route setting and and so it's just it's just kind of

[01:18:35] being smart with it as much as anything it's having a guideline rather than having a rigid

[01:18:40] training plan like I know what I want to do and I got that from doing my degree but I can't

[01:18:47] always be rigid with it I can't be like you've got to train this day this day this day it just

[01:18:52] doesn't work like that um with the route setting industry at the same time it speaks to just putting

[01:18:59] all these puzzle pieces together um that it takes to perform at the level that that you're

[01:19:04] that you've been able to perform at and and will continue to pursue those kind of goals

[01:19:09] but yeah I mean the puzzle piece thing you know is something that I sort of hearing about through

[01:19:14] this whole interview in a lot of ways I mean you you you mentioned you know wanting to have kids you're

[01:19:22] you're about to get married so you're starting a family in both both levels

[01:19:26] you're you've been at this a long time you have financial needs obviously I don't know of court

[01:19:32] route setting is making you rich I doubt it um you've got degrees I mean you're you're coming

[01:19:39] into a time in life that I think so many climbers face when you have all these puzzle pieces and

[01:19:43] you still want to perform and you still want to enjoy climbing um so how do you think about

[01:19:48] about the next few years and and fitting all these puzzle pieces together and and uh you know

[01:19:55] have you thought about it at all are you daunted by it are you are you excited a bit of both I

[01:20:00] think I'm daunted and excited because it's it's always going to be a bit of a level of the

[01:20:05] unknown um which you deal with in climbing on sighting anyway and I think yes I think I see

[01:20:16] probably an end to or reduction in the amount of route setting I'm doing um it's not it's not

[01:20:23] viable as a long-term career for much like for long much longer I'd still I love it it's why I

[01:20:30] still do it and so I'd never want to not completely do it but um my current setup and a lot of what the

[01:20:38] work that I do it's in London and I live in north wales so it's like a five hour like five hour

[01:20:45] journey um and so yeah if I want to start by a family that's not a viable option basically um

[01:20:52] and yeah some something that we've thought about a lot is while like I'll probably look to get more

[01:20:58] into the coaching the coaching side of it and we have our like a psychology company that we've been

[01:21:03] setting up over the last year called climbing flow um because that's a side of climbing that really

[01:21:09] interests me as well and there's never a bit of me in climbing that isn't going to want to perform

[01:21:16] um I'm that sort of person that I'll like I will always want to push myself whatever that

[01:21:22] level becomes I don't know right now what if we have kids that will change and I think it's one of the

[01:21:29] things that I've really paid attention to and found a lot of inspiration in recently is all the female

[01:21:36] climbers that have all the badass female climbers that have been having kids like page class and

[01:21:41] then Emily Harrington and looking at their journeys to come back and it is possible so whilst

[01:21:48] they'll be some time out it's like never say never to coming back to performing at some level or

[01:21:54] another and I think also having come come in from a young age it's like you get to be happy with whatever

[01:22:01] you're doing and as long as I'm outside climbing I'm going to be happy and then it's just figuring

[01:22:05] out what parts of life work with that as well what works career-wise um it's like what my partner does

[01:22:11] and yeah we're like where it all goes in the future from there like whether whether we have kids

[01:22:17] or not whether that's successful or not because there is that possibility and you have to I guess

[01:22:21] you have to be accepting of whatever outcome happens basically all right folks thanks for listening

[01:22:39] and thank you to Emma for sitting down making that happen that was cool she's cool I think she's

[01:22:46] cool and of course you could and should follow Emma twyford on instagram at Emma twyford she

[01:22:52] got it she's the only one of course googling Emma brings up all sorts of videos some of big

[01:22:58] whippers pretty exciting all right last thing is I'm thinking about going to lander the international

[01:23:04] climbing festival but I haven't quite decided I missed out last year I was in Europe I know boohoo

[01:23:10] but I did have some FOMO a lot of history up there with the Enorma cast and the international

[01:23:15] climbers festival in lander in July sometime I don't know the dates but if you're thinking

[01:23:20] about going let me know maybe maybe it'll tip the scales me and you hanging out in lander

[01:23:26] might be enough to get me there because you're so special get out there have some fun don't forget

[01:23:31] to check your knots

[01:24:11] it is King Arthur and these are my knights of the round table whose castle is this

[01:24:16] this is the castle of my master Guido Luambar go and tell your master that we have been charged by

[01:24:23] God with a sacred quest if he will give us food and shelter for the night he can join us in our

[01:24:30] quest for the holy grail well I'll ask him but I don't think he'll be very keen uh he's already

[01:24:36] got one you see what he says they've already got one are you sure he's got one oh yes it's

[01:24:44] very nice sir I told him we already got one well um can we come up and have a look of course not

[01:24:54] you are English types sir well what are you then I'm French why do you think I have this outrageous

[01:25:01] accent you silly king what are you doing in England mind your own business

[01:25:14] um