Enormocast 281: Jon Hawk and Tye Liggins of Memphis Rox – Peace Above All

[00:00:00] You are listening to the Enormo cast. it off butter optional. Hello and welcome to the EnormaCast. This is your host, Chris Galouse. It is February 29th, leap day, 2024. And this is episode 281 of the EnormaCast, a conversation with John Hawk and Ty Liggins from Memphis Rocks.

[00:03:01] And unless you've been under a rock,

[00:04:05] me up there, did a little event, hung around, made the scene. Unfortunately, all the ice was gone when I got there. They're having a particularly warm winter up there and ice

[00:04:12] fell down, but nobody seemed to care that much. Well, they cared at first, but then

[00:04:15] they got over it and had a really good time. So thanks to the crew up there. Thanks to

[00:04:19] Bill for having me and I met a lot of new people, had a great time. So if you came up

[00:04:24] and said hi or if we hung out till four Rocks before and you think that they're doing cool stuff, go over there and donate something or get on a subscription, you know? Three bucks even. Doesn't matter, you can pick any amount you want. With $3 disappearing from your bank account every month,

[00:05:43] would you even notice that?

[00:05:45] If there was like $3 and change like spread Go over there, check it out. Am I talking really fast right now? I feel like I am. Is it faster than normal? Who knows why? Let's just keep it going. Alright, let's get to an interview with John Hawk and Ty Liggins from Memphis Rocks. When it comes to cams, nobody stays ahead of the curve like Black Diamond. And until their climber engineers get antsy again, they've settled on quite the quiver

[00:07:03] of active protection.

[00:07:05] On top of the heap are the ultralight camelots, yeah, so, John, how hard do you climb? Not very anymore.

[00:08:23] Ty, can you put some numbers in front of us here?

[00:08:26] V medium. OK.

[00:09:41] No, that's just say I'm a boulder

[00:09:44] and I used to be a lot better of a boulder in my younger days.

[00:09:45] What happened?

[00:10:44] affiliation with the climbing that you found at Memphis Rocks. I watched a little video you know that was kind of your story in terms of the gym finding

[00:10:49] it but tell us about that kind of where you came from and your introduction to

[00:10:54] finding out about rock climbing because I think that's I think that's sort of

[00:10:57] the crux of this gym is trying to show people that would never see it otherwise the head coach there, so. The head coach. Yeah. And the course setter as well, right? Yes. Yeah. So let me, well, John, I think he's leaving out some details here because when he said he was interested in route setting, we had tried to figure out like, well, you know, if there's something you're into, let's get you to come in here and volunteer a little bit

[00:12:23] and learn some things.

[00:12:25] And this dude was there every day, all day,

[00:12:27] helping our route setters and like learning cool for other people and I'm going to go back to what I was doing before. Like what led up to that, do you think? It was definitely the way, uh, rocks is, uh, based on pay what you can. Cause you know, most activities you go bowling or golfing. These all cost like either a membership or a daily price. So at that time I was not making enough money to afford to go, you know,

[00:13:44] let's say I wanted to go bowl every day.

[00:13:46] That would have been far more expensive.

[00:14:43] cover costs but that's kind of what we'll get to with Memphis Rocks being very different from that. What do you bowl Ty? I'm a decent bowler. Alright.

[00:14:50] Really? Very soft decent. Okay. Very soft decent. You have a hook? If I

[00:14:57] you know give me like two weeks of consistently bowling at. Last time I went

[00:15:02] I put the bumpers up. Nice. Yeah. Now I'm not opposed to playing with some bumpers. community, to create a recreational outlet. But it's more than just a climbing gym. It's not just about our pay what you can structure to actually climb. It's a whole other discussion. But so Tom, you know, his family helped found St. Jude Children's Research Hospital. And so he has ties to Memphis, and then he also found some success in Hollywood writing and

[00:17:41] directing some pretty popular movies, and he had taken some folks from Lemoine Owen College and his University of Memphis class to Colorado to do some outdoor climbing and some gym climbing in Nashville and asked everyone, is this something that you think this city needs? And they all said yes.

[00:19:00] And then he was like, well, folks in this area

[00:19:04] are not really gonna be able to afford these prices,

[00:19:07] so we're gonna do a different model So then I had moved up outside of Charlotte to help some folks open a gym. And that area just wasn't for me, and then my best friend had died, and kind of unexpectedly. And so I've had a good friend, Kurt Smith, who's been in the industry a very long time. He came and we were chatting, and I was just like, look, I'm looking for something that's

[00:20:22] a little bit walked in. So what'd you find in there that compelled you so much to get that involved, to show up every day, as John said, you know, annoyingly banging on the door

[00:21:41] in the morning when it wasn't open yet or whatever,

[00:21:43] or whatever it was?

[00:21:45] It was never me. John, what do you think you provide that draws kids like, I mean, not a kid now, I don't know how old you were when this all went down, but everyone looks like a kid to me that's like, you know, in their 20s or whatever. What do you think you provide? What do you think the sort of bug zapper kind of draw these people in field to Memphis Rocks

[00:23:02] when somebody like Ty does light up

[00:23:05] and says this is sort of this beacon, I guess. I mean, if you're in climbing at all, even with a little toe in the industry, you sort of know about Memphis Rocks. You know about what's going on down there and how different it is. But it's also like, I'm sure it's not been the easiest thing to do. I don't know how long you've been there

[00:24:21] and what the learning curve has been

[00:24:23] with what the model was in the beginning,

[00:24:26] if it stayed, if it stuck, if you had to make changes. I don't know, it's been difficult, but also the most rewarding thing that I've done or been a part of. But I think we went into it pretty naively. We've got this pay structure that we're going to do, but we were going to operate it like

[00:25:41] a normal climbing gym and then that changed within the first couple of weeks. The biggest challenge we've run into pretty consistently would be funding to operate. The first year or two, while we were building some trusts, there were more things happening that make it a challenge to operate, but it's certainly died down.

[00:27:01] A pretty sizable portion of our staff have either grown up in the neighborhood or went interact with this idea of coming into this underserved community, but what are we, how do we just become part of this neighborhood and part of the fabric versus this thing that I think stands out as something different? I don't know how to answer it. It's just always a pretty difficult balance because like you said, the white savior complex,

[00:28:24] I don't ever want to be accused of that,, I'm in Colorado and I pay attention and it's this really great image and we're all just like, yeah, those guys are down there doing a great thing. And I- And I screw up all the time. Yeah, but I also started to wonder, well then,

[00:29:42] I don't really have any idea what, and I'm almost in my head looking at it as concentric circles

[00:29:46] of your sort of influence and I'm like, in the community and saying that this is like what we're lacking and we did our best to provide any resources that we could for that. So Ty, you know when I was a kid, like I grew up in this suburban neighborhood in Chicago,

[00:31:01] like not like take the word Chicago out of it

[00:31:04] because we were really far do? I mean, why aren't you playing basketball with us? I mean, you probably do, but why aren't you focusing on these things that we focus on?

[00:32:20] Why are you being weird?

[00:32:21] Why you gotta go to that place?

[00:32:23] I mean, do you get that?

[00:32:24] Does it come out of the neighborhood?

[00:32:25] Does it come out of your peer group at all? gym to not climb or to do anything else if it's been any sort of problem for you. I will say I am that one peer pressure climber who's just like, yeah, you should come over here to this place for me. It's beautiful. Even if you don't want to climb. There's hikes nearby, whatever. I am the one who's always trying to peer pressure my friends to go outside and do some stuff,

[00:33:44] but sometimes it'll work.

[00:33:46] A lot of times it don't.

[00:33:47] What do you know, we could provide an outreach program that pays for their their their Tea times or whatever. What is it called here? I guess yeah, you're whatever fee have to pay a golf. I don't fucking know

[00:35:02] I think it's a tea time. Yeah. Yeah

[00:35:04] You know, doing things that like that even I wouldn't normally do. So we're having like first experiences like together, but also climbing is like way more fun than all that other stuff. So, so why not climbing?

[00:36:21] What about you Ty?

[00:36:22] I mean, how much do you buy into like, you know, has absolutely nothing to do with climbing. That's something I also enjoy because yeah, you can always find a climber and sit there and talk, you know, we were talking about her, we can sit there and talk about V-grades and stuff all day. But it's even more interesting when you come across somebody that you met at a gym or at a crack of like, you know, you ran into people and then now you're having dinner with them, so I think overall like, climbers and climbing culture is a bit more like, accepting and communal and wants to do things together even if you just met 20 minutes ago. Well, I wanna also build on that risk idea,

[00:39:02] because I think it's not, you know,

[00:39:05] it's sort of a perceived risk,

[00:39:06] especially in a class, they're like with somebody they've just met. And it's kind of a heavy experience that I've forgotten about. But those folks in that class also walk away from that class climbing together even though they didn't know each other, right? Right, yeah, and I think that little thing that you mentioned is a spark in this thing

[00:40:20] that we do that we forget about,

[00:40:23] but it's like a really heavy experience.

[00:40:25] I mean, do you, it's like, dang, this is gonna be scary, but you know, I can do this, let me just rope up, check all my safety points, and so. Do you guys have auto-boulettes? We do not. Okay, have you ever been on auto-boulettes? I hate auto-boulettes. Every time I go, I have to do the thing, right?

[00:41:42] The first time I let go,

[00:41:44] I look down and check, check, check, check again,

[00:41:46] I'm like, and I mean, Ty, you probably don't really know what I'm referring to, but there was an age in climbing when you couldn't, it was like against the rules to hang out and check the holds and- Yeah, the guys that taught me how to climb, like if I fell, I'm coming down to the ground and trying it again, it's like, damn man, let me just see what's up there.

[00:43:01] Yeah, and that's the way I was.

[00:43:03] I was, the other day I was like falling,

[00:43:05] I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, and I'm like, oh crap,

[00:43:07] I gotta go up there and everybody can come in, but I think that guy could probably afford to pay. I think we have these discussions a lot. All the time. But I would say that the majority of people do not take advantage of it. That's the game, right, the majority. You're just like, there's always gonna be the outliers.

[00:44:22] Yeah, and we just wanna trust people as much as possible

[00:44:24] until they give us a introduce people to climbing. Oh shoot. Just to update you, he does not want a fresh towel.

[00:45:40] Alright, so anyway, so tell me a little there, this idea came like, well, why don't we do this all the time?

[00:47:04] And so we created the volunteer program,

[00:48:20] you know, neighborhood cleanups and any other events

[00:48:24] that we may need some help with.

[00:48:27] I always leave out like a few programs. somewhat successful in that service. Like I'll give you an example, we wanted to start a transitional housing program because we have a lot of folks without homes that are in the gym getting coffee or the sack lunches. Who don't care about the climbing? No. Yeah. No, but so what, right? Right, exactly.

[00:49:40] That was just an interesting thing that you wouldn't,

[00:49:43] people come into a gym anywhere else just to rock climb

[00:49:47] or to look at it and then leave. We own the home and there's an employee living there, but it's like, man, we gotta take a step back and figure out what the hell are we gonna do now? So it's things like that, but with more resources, we would have had the right person in place creating that program, because I didn't know shit about it. I was about to say, I'm tired of people sleeping right here.

[00:51:01] So let's figure something out, but we'll get there.

[00:52:04] a lot of us are pretty proud of that one. And we did hear that we've increased voting in the neighborhood because of that easy access. And then we also have a pretty big campus.

[00:52:12] So one of the newer things, we have this organization called the CSA in Memphis that helps

[00:52:19] people. It's like utility assistance. So now I don't know how, but we're going to make some time. And yeah, we we've been like, we're in Montana. Like, we're not going to know where are you guys going? We were going to Bishop, California. OK, so basically, no problem. Yeah, we took the I-40.

[00:53:41] Yeah. The entire way out west.

[00:53:43] And I'm just looking at the trip and I'm just, you know,

[00:53:46] seeing what all we're going to go through and pass by. first year we got there like right at sunset. We had 10 minutes of light. So and even still it was like worth it. It was like two hours off route for like 15 minutes of actually seeing the Grand Canyon. It was just like, yeah. But you pushing that like it changed the way we look at our trips.

[00:55:00] Yes.

[00:55:00] And so there were that first Bishop trip,

[00:55:03] I think there were 12 of us and you know,

[00:55:06] half of us had climbed before outside half of us Hatton. climbing and you don't particularly care if other people find climbing. And in fact, sometimes you don't want them to because it's your thing. You've found this secret thing that's yours. And I think any activity can feel like that. Skateboarding is ours. And if you out there want to find it, great. But we're not going after you. And this has been a change, I think,

[00:56:21] in the way I've looked at climbing

[00:56:22] and a lot of people have looked at climbing.

[00:56:23] But the road trip is such a fundamental part things that you see out there, but then also these beautiful natural places that you see out there. And I just love the fact that you're going to take a bunch of kids or people and show that to them. But tell me a little bit about, you know, you're sort of this leader in these groups, sounds like, I mean, what are, like, tell me about the experiences these people have as far as, and you guys both answer this, I mean, what do they relate to you after these

[00:57:44] road trips, after these climbing trips out to these places? two situations that like always stick with me. And one of them, man, I guess it was back in like 2020, we were at Horsepins. And one of the guys who used to work with us also grew up in South Memphis. And we're sitting around the fire at night, drinking a little whiskey, having a little fun.

[00:59:01] And he stands up and he's like,

[00:59:02] everybody shut up for a second.

[00:59:04] And we're like, oh God, what is this?

[00:59:06] And he was just like thanking everybody for being there. I should have, and you guys went to the buttermilk's, like bouldering trip primarily, I'm sure, but what was your impression of that place? Even you, this is all new, and you probably progressed in your climbing to thinking about these places. And yeah, so tell me a little bit about that,

[01:00:20] like, and rolling up on that place.

[01:00:23] First time in this year in Nevada,

[01:00:25] so that was special're out there. I mean, is it, you know, you're a diverse group of climbers. You know, we've been talking about sort of socioeconomic issues, but then there's also color of your skin issues because the talk, you know, the last few years is how white climbing is and the pushes to bring these other faces into it. So what is that like?

[01:01:41] Oh, man.

[01:01:42] Malik is, I've talked to him. He's from your neighborhood.

[01:02:45] look like, where are they coming from? And we always get it. We'll go out to eat or we'll be at a gas station or something. And it's like they just can't resist us. So where are

[01:02:48] you guys from? And we're just like Memphis. And they're always like, oh, I've heard about

[01:02:54] that place. And then they just, it's always funny because they either get really scared or

[01:03:00] you can tell they're kind of shaken up that we're from Memphis or they just, I don't know.

[01:04:01] as much as the next. So that's what we try to do.

[01:04:03] Just enjoy ourselves if we make you uncomfortable

[01:04:05] just from walking into a water burger.

[01:04:08] I'm sorry, not really, but.

[01:04:10] No, don't be sorry.

[01:04:12] No, fuck those people.

[01:04:14] But I mean, I get it.

[01:04:15] And it's gotta be comfortable, more comfortable in a group.

[01:04:19] I mean, you guys, you know, you have each other

[01:04:22] versus if you are out there with one other person

[01:04:24] or by yourself. that happened and I think that was what Malik was getting at. You just know, you feel it. And I mean, I've mentioned a couple times, like two summers ago I went to 10 sleep with my family, and it's like, you get there and there's like, right on the road, the family values people

[01:05:41] have a fuck Biden flag up, which again,

[01:05:45] is not overtly racist, but it's funny because Jermond actually pulled me back because he was the one that was the target in that comment, but he was also the one that talked me down

[01:07:00] from fighting this guy.

[01:07:01] It's like, nah man, you don't have to worry about it.

[01:07:04] They're just gonna be them, we're gonna be us,

[01:07:08] and we're here to have fun. that. Like if you guys rolled into rifle, like that's where I climb, I would be curious and would my curiosity come across as like negative? But I'd be like, I would come over and be like, where are you guys from? And no, I get that. But we, we walked this line now that's kind of interesting because I would be like, where are you guys from? Genuinely

[01:08:20] like where are you from? Because I like to find out where you guys are from and it's

[01:08:25] not like you shouldn't be here. No. Yeah. he embraces it. Yeah, and he knows too that he stands out and he understands that. And so he also is gonna get heads turning because it's like different, but that's like his purpose. And in some ways I think that's, you know, Memphis Rocks has this outreach program, the idea of getting these underserved communities.

[01:09:42] So unfortunately, and I don't know how you,

[01:09:44] I actually wanted to ask you how you feel about this hey, were you that guy on Black Eyes? I'm like, yeah. And it's like, I don't know. It's weird because it's like a lot of people know me before I know them and recognize me. But do I mind being an ambassador? No, because it's more just about representing rocks. It's also about representing the city. I don't feel like, like I'm a pretty straightforward person.

[01:11:03] If I feel like socializing, I'm going to socialize

[01:11:05] and we can get to know each other. that way, but leadership also is something that not everybody is willing to take on. And you may feel, I think you may feel like you didn't choose it, but you didn't also arrive here because of, for no reason. So, I mean, I sort of applaud you in that sense of, you know, you're a leader and you may not want to feel

[01:12:21] like that, but you know, you're here, you're a coach.

[01:12:24] I mean, you're a leader of those kids or whoever you're and hit that donate now button. We would love to increase our sustaining donor members or our monthly members. It costs a lot to run our organization and we need all the help we can get. Yeah and it's like you can sign up for 10 bucks a month, 20 bucks, whatever. And I just always think about it, especially how much going out to dinner costs now.

[01:13:42] Yeah.

[01:13:43] It's just like, yeah.

[01:13:43] I mean even a cup of coffee.

[01:13:44] I always just say skip the apps.

[01:13:46] Yeah.

[01:13:47] Because you fill up too much anyway

[01:13:48] and then there's too much food. Yeah, not call them out bad, but yeah. Shout them out, sorry. Shout them out. Yeah, I mean, we'll definitely, we'll shout out North Face has been a big part of working with us, Black Diamond, Yeti, Scarpa, Sportiva, a lot of other companies. And you know, they can't always give cash. You know, we've got a lot of gear donations

[01:15:02] that we use for our trips,

[01:15:04] and I'm sure I'm forgetting some folks,

[01:15:06] you know, I'm calling the Bezos lady, I got her number. Ah, sweet. It's hard to say, because we just had a crew who had the luxury, I wasn't able to go,

[01:16:20] and I'm still jealous of them.

[01:16:22] But they were able to go to Africa

[01:16:23] and go climb Mount Kenya, so.

[01:17:21] bit like that as far as climbing is concerned, it's the least gear intensive and instruction intensive.

[01:17:26] But that's cool, yeah.

[01:17:27] Patagonia would be fun.

[01:17:29] Memphis Rocks Patagonia, 2025.

[01:17:33] Maybe Patagonia can fund it.

[01:17:35] Ha ha ha.

[01:17:36] Ha ha ha.

[01:17:37] Ha ha ha.

[01:17:38] Ha ha ha.

[01:17:39] Ha ha ha.

[01:17:39] Ha ha ha.

[01:17:40] Ha ha ha.

[01:17:41] Ha ha ha.

[01:17:46] All right folks, thanks for listening Spotify or whatever. Okay, it's now March 1st. A whole day has passed since I did the intro. And hey, get out there. At least in North America, springtime is springing. The desert becomes perfect in March these days. And of course, don't forget to check your knots.