Rural Venture Capital in Colorado — with Cory Finney

[00:00:00] Cory Finney, I'm so excited to have this conversation. We got to know each other, gosh, it's got to be like four years ago now, maybe five years. At least, yeah. And Howdy Partners is the rebranded name of Greater Colorado Venture Fund. Yep, yep. So we'll talk about that. And together we are major investors in Agile space, and you are chairman of the board.

[00:00:24] All right. So how is Agile going? Let's start there, and we'll talk about all kinds of things. Yeah, looking forward to digging in. Thanks for having me. Agile's going incredibly well. And, I mean, you have seen, you know, the last five years of the company, and I was adding it up the other day. We did a ribbon cutting last week for the new facility that they're opening as they continue to expand.

[00:00:47] And, you know, looking back, I was like, man, I think I've been with the company for longer than all but like four or five employees at this point in time. Really? Holy cow. When did you first make your investment? We invested in 2019. We got to know the founder, Dowdy, in 2018 and made an investment in 2019. And, you know, watched it go from, I think at the time it was like an 11-person company to today is pushing 180. Yes. And isn't it one of the largest employees out in the Durango area?

[00:01:15] Yeah, definitely. One of the larger employees in the area. And, like, it's really interesting. I'm glad you asked that question because this is kind of a through line in our work of, you know, why rural and why are you doing a venture fund out there? Yeah, we're going to talk a lot about that. But Agile's in Durango, they have about 140 employees. And the state of Colorado actually has this spreadsheet that they keep that shows the impact of a job in any given county in relation to another county.

[00:01:44] So if you plug in 140 employees in La Plata County, it has the same impact as a 2,500-person company in Denver County. Really? Which is Coors. Based on what? Based on GDP and, like, total number of jobs as a ratio of that county. Right? And so the 140 people in Agile, you know, you may hear that number and think, oh, that's not big. But that's like putting – that's a Coors-level business in La Plata County. So, yeah, they are one of the larger private companies in the area.

[00:02:13] And don't show any signs of slowing down growth. Well, some signs of slowing down growth in Colorado because some of the jobs that are Agile jobs are not going to be in Colorado to our very good business decisions. So fully supported from a business decision standpoint. But if we put on our Colorado hats, those jobs are going to be in Oklahoma because Oklahoma was very well organized

[00:02:39] and fought very hard to convince Agile that it should do its expansion in Oklahoma and worked with Agile to do so, brought in kind of some, you know, high-powered people from Oklahoma, put together some incentives, the high-net-worth crowd working with the state and the city of Tulsa.

[00:02:59] And, you know, it's one of those examples where if Colorado was as proactive as Oklahoma and saying, we got an advantage, these jobs are already here. And, as you say, and they're on the western slopes. And we want more jobs on the western slopes. High-paying jobs, growth industry, you know, manufacturing, testing, technical.

[00:03:24] I mean, all of the above space, all of the above of what you would want in Colorado. Instead of us fighting hard to make sure we get as many of the forward-looking jobs as we possibly can, we kind of had our pockets picked by Oklahoma. We did a little bit, yeah, in that regard. And just for reference, to elaborate, yeah, Agile's opening up, I think it'll be two test facilities now in Oklahoma.

[00:03:49] We have two down in La Plata County, but we're reaching capacity with those, not only for our own thrusters, but for thrusters of other people in the space industry. And, yeah, Oklahoma put together a really phenomenal package that was too good to pass up. Yeah, it was great for us as investors and it was great for us as Americans because those jobs are in America and those are important jobs. But, again, if you put on your Colorado hat and say, yes, they could have been in America

[00:04:17] and they could have been really good for the company, but they also could have been in our home state of Colorado and in the geography you focus on. And I bring that up because, you know, Colorado, there's a lot going on right now. We won't spend too much of this podcast talking about it, but this is such a case point in all of what's going on where we should be doing everything we can to be building up and accelerating our tech ecosystem,

[00:04:44] not because we need to take care of venture capitalists like you or people like me, but because we need to take care of all of Coloradoans. And we can't take our eye off that ball because there's other states who are much more aggressive, much more proactive, much more welcoming. And with that, they're going to take jobs that rightfully should belong in Colorado. Well, I think, I believe that we're sitting 49th in terms of housing and affordability, the ranking of 50 states right now.

[00:05:13] And, I mean, to your point, those jobs are good-paying jobs. They allow people to buy homes in these communities, especially, you know, community like Durango, that's not the most affordable community out there. But, like, they provide a path to families being able to buy those houses, get their kids into schools. They join the local school boards. I mean, the ripple effect of, like, providing a good economic base for the citizens in these different communities goes way beyond just, oh, good, that's another job.

[00:05:41] It's like, oh, no, that's now a parent who maybe moved here from L.A. or Houston or one of the other, call it space hubs, to be in Durango for the quality of life. And they're going to get plugged in in the ecosystem and the value that, like, you know, I think often we think of just the economic benefit, but the intellectual capital it's brought with this job creation to these communities, like, that's the unspoken part, right? I mean, it changes the entire vibrancy and culture of the community that, you know,

[00:06:10] I'm now raising my daughter in. Yes. And, you know, you and I are, among many other of our counterparts, are working together to try to bring attention to the opportunity and need for Colorado to get its act together on the political side so that it is leaning into, you know, to retaining not just existing jobs, but the expansions of the companies that are here as well as, you know, where others are looking to leave where they're at.

[00:06:38] We want them to, you know, rush their way to Colorado, not head out to Texas and Florida and Utah and other states like that. So, anyways, it's been a while since I've been on the board of Agile, I don't know, nine months or so. What does Agile do? Like, what is Agile's business? I forgot. Short-term memory, I love it. So, Agile manufactures uses additive manufacturing to make thrusters for space missions is the simple version of that.

[00:07:07] So, you can think of a satellite needs to be able to maneuver around space debris or other satellites. Our thrusters are on there and they can do a rapid fire to change the course and trajectory of a satellite. We have some programs to help guide vehicles down onto the moon and get them back up off the surface of the moon. So, we produce thrusters across kind of a variety of thrust level and then now have some programs beyond that in tanks

[00:07:36] and are looking at kind of full systems for space flight. Yeah, when I first heard him talk about tanks, I'm like, wait a minute, aren't we working on space stuff? Why are we working on ground stuff? But it's not those kind of tanks. What makes the tanks at Agile special? Special because it's – I think what's really special about Agile is not necessarily just the products. It's how we go about building the products and coming up with new designs to things that have had a traditional design

[00:08:04] and then executing on that design timeline in step function faster speeds than the industry can do today. So, our tanks are zero slosh. You know, you can't have liquid sloshing around in space. So, zero slosh tanks. And we're able to just – Make for unstable thrusters if the liquid in them was bouncing all over the place. That's right. Exactly. There's no steering wheel on these things. So, yeah, zero slosh and then just our ability to execute and deliver on designs that haven't been done and tested before

[00:08:32] and meet very specific program requirements that are coming from our customers. That's where we shine. So, let's go down two tangents from there. Let's talk about how Agile fits in the broader aerospace and space economy of the Front Range. But let's also go down the path of rural Colorado, which you touched on. So, Agile's in rural Colorado, the Western Slopes. And you guys focus not just on there, but that's where you got started when you were in Greater Colorado.

[00:09:01] Now, I think your remit's broader than that. But talk to us more about what kinds of companies, entrepreneurs, tech exists as you get west of the Front Range. Sure, yeah. So, our mandate, a little back story because I think color of how this came to be is helpful. But back in 2017, actually, let me rewind. The state of Colorado had, I think, great foresight in 2004.

[00:09:28] They sold tax credits to insurance companies to raise a pool of capital. And with that, they formed the Venture Capital Association. And under the state legislature, it said, okay, 25% of that capital has to go into rural companies in Colorado, 25% into urban distress companies, 50% into general Colorado venture investing. It was really hard to build a company in rural Colorado that could scale back in 2004. Yes. Right? That's pre-cloud. That's pre-a lot of the internet framework or groundwork being laid. The world looks a lot different now.

[00:09:58] And so, in 2017, the state of Colorado. In 2004, there wasn't much venture capital of any type in Colorado. Totally. No. There's little bits here and little bits there, but that was pre-Foundry Group days. There was certainly Centennial was there, which was Steve Halstead and Meritage, which used to be his partner. But there weren't that many more. I think maybe Boulder Ventures was operational back then. But venture capital was maybe seven or eight small firms back then. Well, and this is, I mean, a tangent.

[00:10:27] I started another fund called Cocopelli Capital in 2015. And at the time, there's only 13 venture funds, to your point, right? Now we have a list of over 80, 90 venture funds in Colorado. But, yeah, so long story short, the state put an RFP out, said, we want somebody who'll manage a fund dedicated to investing in rural Colorado. At the time, I was living on the Front Range. My partners were, one was in Telluride, and then another was in Bozeman, actually, at the time. And we kind of said, you know, we... And they're your current partners, too, right? Current partners, too. And one of them has a last name similar to yours.

[00:10:57] He does share a last name, yeah. My younger brother, Jamie Finney, and then our partner, Mark Nogger. And we submitted the RFP. We ended up winning the RFP process. Part of that, it was also right when Startup Communities was coming out, Brad's first book. And Startup Colorado was at a place where it was originally kind of started to bridge the gap between Boulder, Denver, Fort Collins, like the Front Range Startup Ecosystems, Colorado Springs.

[00:11:25] And that organization felt, by and large, like, hey, we've done a good job of that. These communities are working better together than they were before. They're not as siloed. Do we sunset this or do we reposition it? And they chose to reposition it on rural Colorado. So there was this community-building entity that was going to focus its energy on building out entrepreneurial communities in rural Colorado. And Brad had previously been on the board of my partner, Mark's. His previous venture in life was called Up Global.

[00:11:54] So Startup Week, Startup Weekend, Startup America. Mark ran that. And one thing they learned through that was, you know, you can go out and you can have community-building efforts around entrepreneurship, but if you don't have capital to seed the companies, it doesn't go anywhere. You need the capital resources. And so that's kind of where the RFP from the city of Colorado came. We responded to that. Our mandate has always been the same. It's we invest in the best founders located in rural Colorado who call rural Colorado home.

[00:12:21] The way that that's defined under the program we're under is counties of 150,000 people or less as of the 2010 census, I believe. But you can think of it as everything not between Fort Collins and Colorado Springs. So the eastern plains, northwest Colorado, southwest Colorado, the entire western slope, you know, Summit County, Roaring Fork Valley, Chaffee, down into Pueblo, Trinidad. Like, that's all of our geography.

[00:12:46] It makes up, well, it's 54 out of 64 counties in the state. And you say that is your geography. It's because the way your venture fund was formed with the state support at that point requires you to focus on those geographies and not other ones? Yeah, that was kind of the constraints we signed up for was, hey, we're going to be the rural designation for this broader pool of capital that you have. And me, you know, I grew up in Durango, Colorado.

[00:13:15] Like, rural Colorado is home to me. I'm a sixth-generation Coloradan. My dad grew up in Steamboat. My mom grew up in Littleton. And so for me, it was like, oh, I get to, you know, take everything I've learned over now a handful of years on the front range around entrepreneurship and that network and go take this to entrepreneurs in rural Colorado? That's the dream. Are you kidding me? So. I might get a little bored myself. My dream. My dream, right? So, yeah. I kind of like Boulder. That's just, you know.

[00:13:45] Yeah. And I think that's what's so unique about Colorado is everybody has a place here. Right? Like, you can be in Denver. You can be in Salida. You can be in Boulder. You can be in Fort Collins. Like, you can find your place within the state. And that's pretty special. And a lot of people choose to call, you know, whether it's the mountains or even the Eastern Plains. Like, home is home. And that's kind of why, how I think about our fund now is, you know, we align with founders on this set of values. You've already opted into this set of values and this lifestyle.

[00:14:14] And, like, this vision for your future and your kids' future in this small place. Rural matters to you. It matters to us as well. Yeah. I grew up in the Chicago area. And Illinois is a big state. Yep. Chicago and the Burbers are Chicago. Then you, the capital's, you know, several hours away down south. And then you've got a lot going on west of Chicago. But those are all separate communities. It doesn't feel like one community. It doesn't feel like there's much of any interplay whatsoever unless you're in politics.

[00:14:43] Whereas Colorado, you know, I know I feel a strong affinity for all of Colorado. And I think most people do. Maybe it's because we, you know, we tend to go up in the mountains and we ski or we golf or we hike. So we don't feel like that's a different geography. We feel like that's part of our home. Identity. Yeah. So the community of Colorado, I think one thing that makes it so special is how authentically

[00:15:11] well, you know, Colorado tries to support one another. You know, across geographies and across, you know, political spectrums too. I, you know, there's certainly parts of the state that are, you know, are much more Republican. There's certainly a majority that's, I shouldn't even say majority. Majority are classified as independent. Yeah. Not even the plurality. It's like more than 50% call themselves independents. But the collaboration across the political lines, I think is better here than most states.

[00:15:41] Yep. As well. But certainly in the tech world, venture world, I mean, we're out there to win together and not compete. Yeah. A hundred percent. I think collaboration is a word, you know, you talk to somebody who moves here from Silicon Valley and like, wow, it's not competitive, it's collaborative. And I think that that, that word is in the DNA of Colorado and like of Colorado. And as a Coloradan, yeah, I feel a pride. I want all corners of my state to, to win. Right. Yeah. It kind of feeds off each other. If you look at the bigger picture.

[00:16:08] Well, it's, it's also relying on itself, right? Like the agriculture of Eastern Colorado has been a huge boon for the entire state forever. The tourism of Western Colorado has been a huge boon. And the growth company creation along the front range corridor has been a huge piece of like the identity for the state. All have played their role. And I think, you know, our job now at Howdy is like, we want to encourage more high growth

[00:16:36] job creation and company creation beyond just metro environments. And, um, I'm happy to get into why, why we think that's important and kind of what it means to these economies, but. No, jump right in. Sure. Um, I guess I opened that door for myself a little bit, huh? Yes. But, uh. That's why we're here to talk. But it's so like traditionally, when you look at rural America, many of the economies are reliant on a handful or on reliant on kind of a single failure point. So that might be agriculture.

[00:17:06] That might be resources extraction. It might be tourism. There's generally an industry that has propped up that community. And, um, if you look at then like the innovation economy, and we all know the statistics of where venture capital flows, right? It's 80% into five metro markets and, but generally consolidation from where venture capital is flowing. If you overlay a map of where venture capital flows, and then you put the map of where 50%

[00:17:34] of GDP creation is in our country, it's almost identical. And then if you overlay the map of actually how, and this is not meant to be political in any sense of the nature, but of how the country voted by county in the last election, it actually largely follows where venture capital flows, where 50% of GDP creation is. And then like the voter base kind of followed that. And so like when I look at that, I'm like, help me understand what that means. Yeah. I'm not sure what that means.

[00:17:58] Um, so where we're concentrating resources, opportunity and innovation is generally, uh, uh, places of prosperity and places where, you know, if you want to go build something, you need to be in Silicon Valley. You need to be in New York. That's, that's often the narrative, right? Um, and then. Yeah. But what that's just that, that, uh, there'd be a Democrat as a president right now.

[00:18:26] So no, because when you look at the actual totality of the country, it's in such concentrated places that a lot of the country feels left behind. And I think like, that's kind of what we're seeing is we're seeing a need to invest into more of America, not just into these single places that end up being the tail that wags the dog. How's there seem to people who are frustrated, you know, prevailed in election?

[00:18:52] I think that, I think that that's possibly fairly true for the last go around. Um, but I think it was also the majority of people who are frustrated. And I think we've reached a tipping point where there's, there's a smaller, there's a more of a concentration of, of where like by not, by continuing to double down and only put venture dollars to work in the same places over and over, we're kind of creating this, like this, let me frame it different.

[00:19:21] Cause I think this might be helpful in 2021 American express did a study and they found that only 66 cents of every dollar spent in a small business, a main street business is retained in that community today. And now why, why does that matter? If you look back, call it to even just 1980, if I walk into my bookstore and I spend a dollar, 98 cents of that dollar was retained by that local company. But as the innovation economy has grown, these companies have become concentrated.

[00:19:50] And so what used to be a capital redistributor, the bookstore, they take the money, they go and they buy lunch. The lunch goes and they get a haircut. It just kept the money flowing within the economy in a circular nature was companies, all companies. My bookstore is now reliant on its own tech stack, right? So if only two thirds of every dollar is there, it's exporting a third of its capital out of that community. And we're only doing that at an accelerating pace.

[00:20:16] And so what I'm kind of advocating for the direction I think we've taken in howdy is like we need more of what I call capital importers. We need agiles that are going to import capital into that community to help. You know, you need to be growing the base quicker than you're exporting the base out. Well, I mean, the fast-growing states are the red states right now. And the slow-growing states are the blue states.

[00:20:41] I don't think it's because of the political disposition of people in those states per se. It's because of the policies and politics of those states. So states like Illinois, New York, Northeast, California, the West Coast, they're losing population. They're losing kind of job growth, ironically, because they've always had the advantages.

[00:21:10] And the ones who are gaining are Florida, Texas, Utah, Arizona, Nevada, you know, states that are doing much more, as we talked about earlier in the podcast, to attract capital. And they're, you know, winning, if you think winning is job growth and economic, you know, vitality. They're on the upward swing, and the other states are on a downward swing, even with the advantages that you have in Southern California or Northern California or New York City.

[00:21:39] In fact, I once shared an article with me, just for the last couple days, I've got to get this, you know, get this publicized, because I didn't see this happening. But Goldman Sachs is setting up a headquarters in Dallas, and they're starting to move jobs from New York to Dallas. And why do they do it? For all the obvious reasons. Like, well, it doesn't seem like we're so welcome now. Can they leave New York? No, certainly not. And they're not going to pack their bags, you all, and, you know, head over there overnight.

[00:22:06] But if they're redirecting their growth and slowly chipping away at their New York presence and establish one in Dallas, you know, how's New York going to feel about that 10 years from now? And I think that's kind of, you know, my angle is not red or blue. It's great. Let's get that capital concentration more dispersed throughout our country, because I think that's only going to help. Yeah, because the people moving, generally speaking, aren't doing it because they have

[00:22:35] a political persuasion toward being, you know, on the right as opposed to political persuasion of being on the left. Most of them have a political persuasion, maybe not on the left, but certainly not on the right, you know, maybe somewhere closer to the middle. But they're leaving because of the policies that are coming out of the Democratic states, not because they're anti the values of what they think of, you know, of being a Democrat at least used to mean, but because they feel like they're under attack, underappreciated.

[00:23:04] And they're saying, well, I'm not going to stay somewhere that seems to be looking to, you know, attack kind of what I've created. I'm going to go somewhere that seems to be welcoming more of us. And, you know, I think that's kind of the effect that's taking place. I think that's pretty matter of fact. I think that's a political statement. That's just an observation. Yeah. Yep. That's fair. Yeah. I mean, we've got to fight, you know, just like rural Colorado has to fight for jobs relative

[00:23:33] to an urban area. You know, each state has to fight for jobs as well in economic activity. 100%. You're fighting for it in the rural areas of Colorado. So you're trying to put venture capital work in Happen. Yeah. Now for? Almost a decade. Almost a decade. Yeah. So tell us what else besides Agile. What else? We're pushing. I think we just made our last. Was it last week?

[00:24:01] We made our 53rd, 54th and 55th investment. Wow. So deal flow hasn't been a problem. It's been great. We are industry agnostic. We invest across all industries. Haven't done a quantum deal yet. That's maybe the one carve out and for many good reasons. You haven't seen too much quantum in rural. Not a lot of quantum in rural yet. But by and large, like if you look at our portfolio, it's a cross section of what you'd

[00:24:30] expect to see in Colorado. You know, we have telecommunications. We have ag tech. We have aerospace, as we talked about with agile, health tech, ed tech, like you name it. It's in our portfolio. The one place we might have a little bit more of a skew than just a cross section would be in like outdoor product companies. And that's just the nature of the market. You know, there's a lot of mountain bike companies and goggle companies and stuff that get created in these places.

[00:24:58] But yeah, it's been an incredible ride. We have about 30 some active companies. We've had over, we've had now 10 acquisitions between our two funds. And yeah, it's- And I would say, I mean, I don't know your portfolio, but I do know how well agile is doing and where they might be tracking toward. And agile could turn out to be one of the best investments you guys were ever involved with, I suspect. Yeah, from the howdy lens for sure.

[00:25:26] It's, I think, you know, the growth trajectory that it's on and having been fortunate to be the first check-in always helps, right? To where it is today. But yeah, no, I think agile's trajectory is, take geography out of it. It's just a great, has been a great venture investment and looks like it will continue to be a great venture investment, not just for where we're investing. And, you know, luckily agile is not the only one. We have a handful of others in there that I think are, you know, when I look at the portfolio

[00:25:56] and- Yeah, one or two or three you want to highlight? Sure. One that's pretty well known in the state is called Barnow Precision Agriculture, BOPA. And they're making autonomous tractors that go out and they do weeding in fields for kind of replacing labor in the fields, right? So their tractor can go and run 20 hours a day. You don't have to be finding labor and then paying that labor to do that work. They can also do seeding. They can do other things like with the applications.

[00:26:27] Now, this is like, I think a perfect example of, you know, where rural may be an advantage. There's other competitors that have come out this and they put out million dollar tractors and the farmers get them and they're like manifesting brakes. I got to send it way back and I got to fly a tech out and it just isn't solving the problem. This is a family that's grown up four generations of farming in Eastern Colorado. And a couple of the kids ended up in the world of technology and they decided, no, we can do this better.

[00:26:55] And they came at it from a totally different angle. And they have a, you know, $25,000, $50,000 tractor instead of the million dollar tractor and farmers are going crazy over it. It's this company. I've never seen such demand. The demand way outpaces where the product is today. And so, you know, as we continue to evolve on the product, we're just finally catching up with the demand in the market. And I think that that has all the makings to be a massive success story. And that one's based in Florence and La Junta. So. Wait, where's that?

[00:27:26] So Florence is better known for Supermax. And so they're building these robots down the road from El Chapo. And then La Junta is out in the Eastern Plains. And is that south of Colorado Springs or I don't know where that is? South of Colorado Springs, north of Pueblo. Okay. Kind of tucked in the Sun Belt Valley there. Neighbors with Canyon City. Gotcha. And then La Junta is out in Eastern Colorado. About 45 minutes past Rocky Ford. So, you know, they're in the market. They come from the market.

[00:27:56] They're able to test their product in the field every day. They're doing phenomenal things. We have another company. You know, I'm thinking of fun too. Called Kamiwaza. They are phenomenal growth rate. You can kind of think of them. I'm way oversimplifying it. And I'm sure Luke will yell at me later. But kind of as a Palantir competitor in some regards. So they're looking at AI systems and management for the defense industry. As well as some commercial applications as well. And they're, you know, growing like a weed.

[00:28:26] They've raised a significant amount of venture capital. Most of it from the coast, unfortunately. And, yeah, there's a handful of those success stories. Yeah. Because as much as we look at the development of the venture scene here in Colorado. And as you mentioned, you know, we went from a very small number. Eight to 80. To 80. But not too many of those 80 have large sums of money where they could lead a Series B or a Series C. But there are a few.

[00:28:56] There are a few that tend to be more sector specific. But there are a few that are very large funds. But for the most part, this is earlier stage venture. But a lot of them. Earlier stage venture is going to give away the later stage. And I think, you know, one maybe under-realized financial asset that we have in this state is going to prove to be Partners Group. Because Partners Group has got a big presence. And I think as they bring on young people, which they have for years.

[00:29:26] And those young people are getting used to living in Colorado. And they start to spin themselves out of Partners Group. They're going to look around and they're not going to want to be part of a venture capital firm. They're going to want to be part of a private equity firm. So I hope they lead the charge in spawning a bit of a private equity, kind of later stage equity ecosystem out here. Because certainly we have lots and lots and lots of companies who are already unicorns and beyond.

[00:29:54] Many of them have exited at values way north of a billion, multiple billions of dollars. And there's way more, you know, even a bigger number that are following in their footsteps. So I think, you know, if not for our political headwinds, Colorado is extraordinarily well positioned to kind of get to that next level up in terms of being one of the absolute outstanding ecosystems for not just startups, but for scale-up tech companies.

[00:30:23] So let's talk about the other dimension that I had brought up earlier. Well, before we do, you mentioned a second company. Do you have a third or fourth you want to talk about in your portfolio? Yeah, so Bopa and Kami Waza were two others I mentioned beyond Agile. Who else is top of mind right now? We just made a really fun investment into this is very, very early stage. It was called Boost Coos, Protune Coos Coos Company.

[00:30:52] Two founders deeply entrenched in the D2C industry and, you know, one of those companies that launched and the traction has been phenomenal. Like it's just, it's one of those that... You said D2C? Direct-to-consumer. Oh, direct-consumer. Direct-to-consumer companies, yeah. And, but yeah, you look at the numbers and you're like, oh, this is actually kind of silly. There's a lot of room to run here. What do they do? So, protein couscous.

[00:31:20] Yep, protein-based couscous, which, you know, Goodles is like the protein-based macaroni. I think they were just acquired last week for hundreds of millions. So, playing in that market, that one's fun. It's top of mind because... I don't think couscous is protein. I think of it as... Grain, I guess. Yeah, yeah. So they, you know, athletes themselves, they wanted a better recovery fuel and he grew up in Israel and grew up with couscous as a fundamental.

[00:31:48] Like core staple in their diet and set out to create his own better version of what doesn't exist today. So, that one's fun. They're top of mind because they were one of the ones... And you said you mentioned two other ones earlier. I remember you talking about the tractor one, but I missed the other one. Kamiwaza was the other one. Kamiwaza, that's one on the Eastern? They're in Summit County. Yep, Summit County. And they're like a simplified version is a Palantir competitor. Oh, that's right. That's right.

[00:32:18] And you said you crossed many, many years ago. And, yeah, so... That's right. Yeah, yeah. You slipped by and said it's a Palantir competitor, but you didn't say much more about it. Yeah. No, they're doing phenomenal. They've raised a ton of capital. And I said, unfortunately, largely from the coast. Yep. But, yeah, they've got an amazing growth rate over, I want to say, 40-ish employees at this point in a relatively short time. So they have a fun arc ahead of them. Great. Awesome.

[00:32:46] So let's talk about some of the industries that Colorado is booming in. A couple of your examples touched on those industries, but let's start with space and space tech, aerospace and space tech, what Agile's in. Yeah. There's a company that's somewhat similar to Agile, doesn't compete directly, but they do build thrusters. They build thrusters that take off from Earth as opposed to in space, which is with Agile.

[00:33:15] And that's Ursa Major. And I bring them up because they just announced that they're headed down the go-public path, right? They did. Yeah. It's incredible. And they're not the only ones this year in that industry. I mean, it's been a pretty active market in Colorado for the space and not just this year, but the last couple of years, you know, Sierra Space. Yes. Voyager. Voyager, yep. I mean, it's been busy. And it's not new, right?

[00:33:42] I mean, like aerospace defense is a backbone of this economy if you look back several decades. All the major primes have always had a presence here, but as that market has evolved and venture capital has flowed into that market, we've been a beneficiary to see a lot of those folks leave those major primes to go start their own versions in their own companies. And then, you know, I do think we are competitive because there's only a handful of places in the country where you can have access to that customer base.

[00:34:09] And to be able to, you know, plan an operation in Denver-Boulder and be a 60-minute drive from many of the major primes as well as the Air Force is incredible. And we're number one per capita in the nation for aerospace and space economy. And I think number two on absolute terms to California. So, yeah, a lot going on in that industry.

[00:34:34] And there's, you know, we mentioned really quickly three or four companies, but we can rat off, you know, 25, you know, space companies that are scaling up and doing really well. It's a really exciting space. And then, you know, you mentioned, you know, a company that is both an ag company and a robotics company. You know, AgTech and Regenerative has been big out here for a long time, a lot of northern Colorado activity there. That's another big area that we don't always think of.

[00:35:03] And you even mentioned a natural food company, which Boulder in particular has been a long history of being a leader in natural foods. Yep. And, you know, you're mentioning one of them out there in the Western Slopes. Yep. So that's yet another industry. And then even Luke's company, I would put in the category of AI infrastructure. Totally. Which is the new name of what we call my old industry for good reason. You know, data centers and fiber networks. But there's also multiple new companies in here in that area that are just booming.

[00:35:33] One had the foresight to name themselves after me, Caruso. They spelled it wrong. They took Robinson Crusoe's last name. But they just announced raising money at a, what was it, like a $30 billion valuation. This is a relatively new company building kind of data centers and kind of AI clusters within the data center.

[00:35:57] So, you know, that whole industry, we still have the two leading fiber providers, kind of my two prior companies. Lumen, which is now growth of Level 3 and Quest. Yep. And Zale, the company I founded. But then our data centers, we have Vantage, one of my former colleagues, as well as kind of the guy who bought Zale, is an investor behind it. Vantage is one of the biggest data center companies. We have Stack Infrastructure. We have, you know, another four or five data center headquartered companies on top of that.

[00:36:27] So that, you know, AI infrastructure is a big deal. Quantum is a big deal. Yep. We have so many industries. Outdoor. Outdoor, the outdoor industry and fitness in general. And outdoor means, you know, a few different dimensions. It means people actually going outdoors and skiing and recreating. But it also means the media and technology that has to do with fitness and outdoor. And the brands. I mean, if you look. Brands. Osprey started in Cortez.

[00:36:56] Smartwool, Big Agnes, Honey Stinger all started out of Steamboat. We're investors now in a company called Revel. They make mountain bikes. We actually wrote two investments into that one. He sold the company and then bought it back and we reinvested. Oh, nice. Nice. And then, yeah, Glade Optics, another one. Sunglasses and goggle company out of Breckenridge. But outdoor is a huge industry for the state as well. Yeah, it's great.

[00:37:23] I mean, how many, I mean, the real big states, I guess, have lots of industries. California certainly can rattle off, you know, a whole bunch of them. But once you get outside of California, you know, geographies tend to be known for, like, being really good in this industry or really good in that industry. But very few of them have leadership roles in so many different sectors like Colorado does. Especially with our population base. We're not, to your point, we're not a big state. We may have a big landmass, but, you know, we're 6.2 million people, something like that.

[00:37:50] Like, population-wise, we're not a massive state, but I think we really compete and we punch above our weight across a whole variety of sectors. I think, like, the through line on that is why, and it's because people want to be here. It's a phenomenal place to be, right? From a lifestyle perspective. And once you get here, you don't want to leave. You don't want to leave. Yeah, you don't. There's a reason I'm sixth generation. I tried to leave. Didn't work. I ended up boomeranging back.

[00:38:14] And I think, you know, that's the common through line is people want to be here, and now we just, you know, need to continue to create the environment where it's realistic and feasible, too. Yeah, I mean, that's why I think there's so much frustration by the broadly defined tech crowd is because, you know, they don't want to leave. And, you know, they don't want to be forced to leave. They don't want to leave, period.

[00:38:37] Yet, you know, they're being faced with kind of a, you know, a choice where if they stay here, it might be harder and harder for them to compete. Harder and harder for them to attract employees, even though people want to be here. But it seems like it's an infinitely solvable problem because most states, you know, they have to fight super hard to get businesses. They have to offer huge incentives.

[00:39:01] They have to overcome the fact that they don't have strength in very many industries, that maybe it's too hot or maybe it's too cold or maybe it's too boring. They don't have, you know, water and they don't have mountains and, you know, they don't have the stuff that attracts people. But, you know, but having said that, it's kind of like being in a company that's doing really well. If you start taking it for granted, you know, you're already on the downward slope even if you don't know it.

[00:39:27] And I think that's the worry in Colorado that our political leaders, they have the mindset that, you know, that people should be happy to be in Colorado. And they shouldn't have to work hard to keep companies in Colorado. And they shouldn't have to work hard to attract people to Colorado. And, you know, the truth of the matter is you do. You know, you do because if not, you know, many of the best, you know, tech and innovators and the companies that are behind them are going to be faced with needing to choose somewhere else.

[00:39:57] And that just hurts Colorado. And like you said, we're a really big state with landmass. That means we have room to grow and grow and grow. So, but to grow and grow and grow, you need jobs and jobs and jobs and economic activity and opportunities. And, you know, we need to work hard to make that happen. I had a baseball coach and his favorite saying was always complacency kills. And it's like you can't let yourself get complacent, whether that's as a company, as an individual, as a state, whatever it may be.

[00:40:22] And I think, yeah, we just need to continue to push ourselves and figure out, okay, you know, we've accomplished really great things as a state. I mean, you know, you look across the board, this is still where I want to be. It's still where I want to raise my daughter. It's like it's the, I like to joke that I live in the best part of the best state of the best country in the world. I'm pretty lucky. But that doesn't mean that we can't continue to ask what's next and how do we continue to improve. Yep.

[00:40:51] And let's talk about the housing. You mentioned housing as being 49th in the nation now. You know, if you're in, you know, most of California, if you're in most of New York, if you're in, you know, the Chicagoland area, you know, you face real problems about not having space to build. You know, you've got true geographic constraints. If you're in the Bay Area and you want to get serious about housing, you've got all kinds of challenges because where do you put housing? Everything's so congested.

[00:41:20] Traffic's so difficult to move around, to get to move around. So even if you're 10 or 15 miles away from where you work, that could be an hour-long commute. I look around Colorado, even in the more metro areas, let alone in the rural areas, and it's like we've got plenty of room to build more stuff, plenty of room for supply to, you know, to keep place with demand and to keep, you know, housing more affordable.

[00:41:48] So what do you think it is about Colorado that is causing it to be 49th? I mean, that seems so crazy. It does seem crazy, and I won't pretend to be a housing expert. That's definitely well outside of my area of expertise. But I think, I mean, you know, my understanding is a lot of it comes down to, like, permitting and just the cost of doing business here and the lead time it takes to get approvals to do things.

[00:42:13] And I do think, like, a real natural constraint is water in terms of just, you know, and that's going to be a constraint for the entire West, not just unique to Colorado. But water's not what's causing housing to be unaffordable. No, no, no, no. Unaffordable. No, yeah, more of a gross constraint. A natural resource challenge. Yeah, yeah.

[00:42:31] But my, I mean, my cursory understanding is it really comes down to, like, regulation and it not making financial sense to necessarily invest in a community housing project because the cost of building is, outpaces, like, what the ROI on the project would be so greatly. You probably have a better understanding of this space and market, so I'm curious your thoughts. Well, it's like a lot of things. You know, I like to oversimplify it.

[00:43:01] My team loves it when I do that. Like, oh, that's not hard. Let's just do four of those. So I like to oversimplify it. And to me, you know, part of it is attitude, right? If the attitude is, you know, we need, for all the people of Colorado, we need things to be more affordable. We would all agree on that. And the biggest item of affordability is housing costs. We would all agree on that. So I think we all say, well, why don't we work hard to make housing more affordable? I think we'd all agree on that. And I think we're going to do that.

[00:43:31] Somewhere around that is where it starts going one direction or another. So some people who are political-minded and maybe community-minded are like, I got a great idea. Why don't we make it a lot more expensive to build by requiring those who build to have to put extra money aside, you know, to support, you know, subsidized housing?

[00:43:52] And why don't we have them take on a bunch of extra requirements so that, you know, what they build is more to my liking and what they build is has this feature, not that feature, and has to have this and a lot of this, even though they don't need this. So why don't we put a lot of requirements on them? And it's not just permitting in the form of it taking a long time to get something approved and a long time to build, which adds a lot of cost to it all by itself.

[00:44:20] But also we're going to literally force them to do things. Regulated it to be expensive. Yeah, to be expensive. And some of that we're going to do in the name of housing being more affordable. Like, okay, I don't know, you know, don't you think maybe a lot less housing is going to get built if you do all those things? And don't you think if a lot less housing gets built, housing is going to be more expensive? And, you know, do you take any responsibility for that? You know, even think about that. So when I say add to that, you might be like, we need more supply.

[00:44:50] You know, if we have more supply, prices will go down. And if we get investors to build, you know, we could find ways to, you know, help them feel like it's a good idea for them to put their money at risk to build more housing. You know, that's victory alone. And some of them will make money and some of them won't. But let's do everything we can to not just get out of their way but to encourage and, you know, push them and say,

[00:45:16] what can we do as a community to make it more likely that you're going to build housing, particularly housing that, you know, can be a supply for kind of the everyday working family or individual. We don't do that. You know, we don't get together as, you know, as political leaders, as voters who want things to be more affordable. Like, I'm a voter. I want things to be more affordable. Right? I mean, how many voters? Affordability is my number one issue.

[00:45:40] It's like, well, why don't you get behind, like, doing all we can to have those, you know, real estate folks who want to put real estate development money to work, get them to build more because if they get them to build more, there's going to be more housing. If there's more housing, it's going to be more affordable. It's really not that hard. Yeah. By my simplistic, you know, South Chicago way of thinking. It's funny because, like, you know, when we talk with our founders, that is one of the biggest things that comes up in these rural communities is, you know,

[00:46:08] it's not that people don't want to move here to come work for the company. It's they can't find a place to live. Yeah. Right? And if you're right in the heart of Vail, you can certainly understand that, right, in the heart of Aspen. But when it's rural Colorado in general, it's like, I mean, all you do is look around and say, well, I know having land isn't a problem. At least it shouldn't be because there's plenty of land everywhere I look that doesn't have anything on it. Yeah. So it's not the availability of land or that tight constraint. It's something else. Yeah.

[00:46:35] And some of that is just, I mean, desirability. People want to be there, right? You're willing to pay a premium to live in these places. That should be a reason why people want to build more. A hundred percent. Yeah. No, a hundred percent. But, like, because of the constraint. Prices are high. Let's build them. Yep. Supplies capped because of the constraints that you're discussing, right, I think, in a lot of these communities.

[00:46:58] And it just, yeah, it's like a bottleneck for, you know, it's not only, it's a bottleneck for company creation, I guess, is what I'm getting at. Because, you know, it's like, hey, we can't put another thousand people here because we could never house them. Yeah. And, again, you can understand that if you're talking about, like, downtown Aspen or downtown Vail. And that's harder to solve for. You know, that's where you'd be like, we really want, you know, that to be affordable for people to work in there. And, yeah, I get it.

[00:47:24] But why don't we start by working on all those other areas that you don't have those really hard constraints but something that's still preventing, you know, the supply to be such that, you know, we're not number 49 in the nation. Yep. I just think that's where, you know, leaders have to step up and lead. Yeah. You know, and lead with kind of roll up their sleeves. And, you know, we've got a new governor who's going to be coming in. And, you know, if I was a new governor, you know, one thing I would say is let's set a goal.

[00:47:52] And the goal is going to be 4% housing growth. We want the number of living units to grow by 4% a year instead of 1% a year because by hook or by crook, if we achieve 4% a year, that means a lot more people are going to be in houses. And they're going to be there because it's more affordable. And that will be proof. So now all we've got to do is figure out how to get those builders and developers to step up their game and build more. And we've got to lean into help.

[00:48:19] I mean, that's simple in my simple playbook. Does it sound wrong? No, it doesn't sound wrong. I think, you know, I agree with what you're saying. There's I think the other reality on the field is we saw, you know, population decline or growth rate slow in Colorado for the first time in a long time. Yeah, that's the way to get housing prices low is let's destroy our economy and our housing prices will go right through the floor.

[00:48:45] I experienced that growing up in the Midwest and the Rust Belt. Those housing prices went really low because no one had jobs and no one could afford. They didn't solve affordability. They just solved, you know, the opposite of wealth. And Colorado's not going to go down that path because there's a lot of good reasons to be here, meaning it's not going to go completely backwards. It's not going to be a Rust Belt. But you want to be growth.

[00:49:09] You want to be growth so that there's opportunity available for those who want to follow us, your kids and all that. Here's a harder question that I think we as entrepreneurs, as venture investors, I think we've, this one I don't have good answers for. So we know, at least we think we know, but we think we know so much that it kind of, you know, it's in our bones.

[00:49:35] It's in our very essence as people who are in tech and venture and entrepreneurs. We feel like we know that a thriving economy built on forward-looking tech is good for everyone in the geography that has it. You feel that way, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you feel that way, like, of course. Like, how can it not be? Yet, we're living in a state and we're not the only one. In fact, we're not even necessarily the leading one.

[00:50:03] We're living in a state who is enacting policies that are undermining kind of the opportunity for that growth to take place. And they don't seem to be too worried about it, whether it's the politicians or even more importantly, those who voted those politicians in. Because, you know, they rightfully can say, listen, I've been really clear about what I'm going to back and I got voted in. And people are saying what you're saying did get voted in. So, you know, what is it that we are missing?

[00:50:30] We are missing as tech, as entrepreneurs, as venture investors. Like, why isn't the entire community, including our political leaders, including, you know, the supermajority voters saying we need to put in place kind of the conditions in which our economy will thrive? I might be totally off base. But to me, this comes back to the earlier conversation around consolidating innovation and opportunity. And sure, we've been doing that, but we're concentrating it.

[00:50:57] There's, I think, I'm going to get the numbers totally wrong, so don't quote me on this. We'll have to go, you know, fact check after. But I want to say, like, 80% of the GDP growth in Colorado over the last five years or decade has been in just, like, four of our counties. There's 64 counties in the state. So I think what you're doing is, like, it is booming for a lot of people and it's not booming for a lot of people.

[00:51:23] Yeah, but it's not the rural areas that are voting in the policies that are undermining our tech ecosystem. It's Denver, city Denver. It's, I mean, the person who got voted in who is a self-described Democrat socialist didn't come from Durango. It came from Denver. Yeah, but I think, like, that's a trend line you're seeing where you've seen enormous prosperity for some people is, like, Washington, right?

[00:51:52] California, New York. These states we talk about in decline are also the states where venture capital has been concentrated. And that's the weird paradox in my brain is, like, we've consolidated innovation and... But they're in decline because those people are leaving the state, not because those people were in the state. But something was a tipping point for them to say, okay, no longer do I want to be here, right? Because they were on the up and up for a long time. Like, those were the places to be. Those were the states you wanted to be. And then higher taxes came in.

[00:52:22] You name it, new policies came in. And eventually, people said, like... That is the paradox, right? As you said, because that's the paradox that they had the conditions that were resulting in a growing state. Yeah. Where maybe it is as simple as those who aren't directly part of it, even if they're benefiting indirectly, they would rather, you know... I mean, would they really rather, like, you know, destroy the Golden Goose or have the Golden Goose fly away to Texas? I think...

[00:52:50] And say, good, now, you know, now we're getting rid of the economic engine. I mean, how are they better off? I don't know that... I would argue logically they're better off. I think that there's... When things are going really good, idealism can take over logic, in my mind. And I think sometimes, like, when that culture dynamic shifts to this, like, idealistic but unrealistic reality is, like...

[00:53:19] That's the way I'm going to challenge you on that, even though I think you're probably right. I'm going to play devil's advocate. Because that's a form of saying... You know, the people that are doing that are ignorant. You know, they just don't understand. Right? Like, they don't understand that they are harming themselves if they are voters voting for politicians. And the politicians are putting, you know, in place policies that are driving economic growth from their geography to another geography like Texas.

[00:53:47] Like, you know, they shouldn't be doing that. They just haven't figured that out. But maybe there's a different explanation. This is where I get back to I don't have a clear answer. You know, what can we be doing? I mean, we as venture capitalists, as people in the tech crowd to, you know, if we truly believe it's good for everyone in Colorado, we truly believe that, which I do and what you do, to have a thriving economy driven by tech.

[00:54:15] And we know the conditions for driven by tech to take place in your geography include those who are creating enormous value. You know, that they, you know, accumulate enormous wealth while they're generating enormous value. That's just the way it happens. And if you try to legislate it out of California or out of Colorado, all you're doing is encouraging those who have the capability to do that to go do it where, you know, where they're more welcome. Yeah. And that's what's happening. And that's what's happening.

[00:54:44] So how do we get our heads around collaborating with our broader Colorado community so that the dynamic that we think is really good, like the conditions that produce vibrant tech economy, is what they want badly as well.

[00:55:02] And they want to vote, they want badly not for you and not for me, but for themselves and their, you know, their friends, their family, their, their next generation, that they want that to be vibrant in Colorado because it's in their best interest. And that they can, you know, that we can collaborate in a way where it's a win-win as opposed to right now where it feels like, you know, we're here like saying, what are we doing ourselves?

[00:55:32] And they're there saying, you know, you guys need to figure it out because, you know, we're getting voted in and that we're getting voted in because we're saying we're going to do all these things that, you know, we think are going to destroy our vibrant economy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's, that's the tension all across the country right now is, you know, there's. It's not in Texas. It's not in Florida. They're just going around laughing at the rest of us. They're like, yeah, keep driving business away from your states because we'll take up all of it where we can. And they are.

[00:56:02] Yeah. And it's not just them. It's, you know, it's Tennessee. It's Utah. It's Nevada. If you dug down deep, there's still both factions of representation in every place, right? It's not, you can't apply a blanket to an entire state. And I think like it's just what's the majority voice, right? Yeah. The majority voice in those states is, is rejoicing in, in how much easier it is that we're making them to win kind of the, you know, the tech race.

[00:56:31] And, and they're not doing this because they like, you know, they like, you know, people who have more money more than, you know, the people in Colorado like that. They're doing it because they think it's good for their entire state. At least I assume that's what they're doing.

[00:57:15] Yeah. That bill wasn't potentially. It was, it was as obvious as, you know, as the 300 days of sun in Colorado are obvious to at least all of us. And I think it's, you know, with benefit of hindsight, you guys said we were right. I mean, I believe, I believe we would, but there are people who would say we weren't. And like, I don't understand their voice or their perspective. At least they changed the bill. So they may say that, but if they believe that they wouldn't have supported changing the bill. But, but they did a bunch of damage by changing the bill.

[00:57:44] They didn't erase the damage that was done. They, they maybe dampened it a little bit, but, but the message was sent loud and clear and we lost jobs that will never get a chance to get back again. And we're still losing jobs, even though we changed that bill because, you know, people looked at Colorado and said, you know, boy, it looks like Colorado doesn't want to be in the AI business. Let's go take our AI business somewhere else. I mean, I, I like to joke at the time that it was like the early days of internet because, you know, I was part of the early days of internet. It had been like Colorado waving a sign. If you want to do internet, don't come to Colorado.

[00:58:14] And I wouldn't be here because we wouldn't have moved there. Totally. We wouldn't have moved somewhere else. Totally. And there's a lot of people like me who wouldn't be here if Colorado took that attitude around the internet. So it was just mystifying to me that we could take that around AI and the people doing it couldn't even get their heads around it when it was, you know, when it was so obvious. And, you know, and, and I know it's hard to admit when you make a mistake, but still, I mean, the ramifications are gigantic.

[00:58:39] And now we're about, you know, we're at risk of making a much bigger mistake with that, uh, that, uh, ballot measure that would, uh, put a graduate income tax in place. And, uh, you know, I think people, you know, they want to support that because they're like, you know, people with wealth should pay more taxes. I think that's a statement that a lot of people could get comfortable with. You know, yeah, if you're more wealthy, you should pay more taxes and maybe you should pay a higher tax rate.

[00:59:05] But the problem is, is if you try to put that in place in, in Colorado and they're doing the polar opposite in Arizona and in Texas and in Utah, you know, you're not ending up with, you know, more taxes coming to your state because the wealthy are paying more. Or you're ending up with less wealthy people or at least people creating new wealth because they're going to want to create their new wealth somewhere else. Yeah. And, uh, who'd you help? You know, you didn't help Coloradoans. You help, you know, Texas.

[00:59:31] You know, I kind of like Texas people, but I don't like them as much as I like Colorado people. Yeah. In Durango, we love them. Yeah. Yeah. You guys are half Texas up there, aren't you? That's right. I was in a golf tournament at, uh, Country Club of the Rockies. You know, I'm a member up there and, uh, more than half the people in the golf tournament in Colorado were from Texas. I believe it. I believe it. Yeah. They just, they're not paying our taxes though. They're paying their zero taxes down there.

[00:59:59] And then they're coming up here to, good news is they're spending our money. So I guess we should thank them for that. They're in fact, that's the plan. They save money on their state taxes. Then they come out here and spend it. Export it back. Yeah. So maybe that's what we're missing. We actually are collecting the Texas tax. Yeah. Colorado collects the taxes from Texas at Texas. I like that. I like that. There you go. See, we're not as dumb as we look. Yeah.

[01:00:22] That's, uh, that's our path to growth is we'll just import, import the, the Wyoming and Texas, uh, zero tax back in through, through, through, through our recreation. Our recreation. Yeah. But, uh, my guess is our recreation market, you know, they'll resource with COS here in Boulder and their headquarters is down the street. My guess is they would like to see a thriving economy in Colorado. Absolutely. They get, a lot more money gets spent on their recreation, uh, and resorts if, uh, money's flowing. A hundred percent.

[01:00:51] So, uh, you know, it's just the way it is. Yeah. No, I think, I mean, nobody would argue. I don't think anybody would argue the thriving economy is in a poor interest from either side, right? And that's why I think entrepreneurship has always been one of the most unifying things, regardless of what side of the aisle you're on. It's like, we can't argue with small business creation. We can't argue with, like, the American dream is built on the backbone of entrepreneurship. Like, that's core to who we are.

[01:01:20] I would say we can't argue about it, but we're undermining it. So, people are. There are a lot of people out there, and a lot of them are getting elected with lots of votes who are basically undermining it. So, I don't know if that's the same thing as arguing, but they're undermining it. I also think it's a thing bringing people to the table from both sides to talk about, like, what do we do about it? Yeah. Right, because right now we are, in Colorado, there's groups of leaders from all different backgrounds and political beliefs coming together to talk about it, and that's important. It's really important. It's really important.

[01:01:50] It's a lost art, but one that I think we get back. In fact, I think it's by the time this gets dropped, we would have dropped a podcast with Governor Polis because it's recorded. I think it's dropping next week. So, and, you know, a lot of people think of me as being a Republican, even though I'm not. I don't think there's very many things that Governor Polis and I disagree with.

[01:02:12] I mean, I think if we lined up everything that, you know, he believes in, everything I believed in, I'm not sure there'd be, you know, much space between those two. So I don't know if that makes me a Democrat, but certainly I'm not afraid to say things about the Trump administration that I think they're doing that's right. You know, maybe he can't quite say those out loud, but I'm sure he, you know, he would agree with a lot of things they're doing.

[01:02:40] Like, is it good to have more manufacturing jobs in the U.S.? I don't know. I think it is. And, you know, I think, you know, the tariffs were an attempt to level the playing field, not unlevel it, because I think it was unlevel to the advantage of other countries. And, you know, and being able to talk about that and communicate about that and say, okay, what's really happening when, you know, when you travel and there's a VAT tax that you have to pay? I mean, what's that? I don't see anyone paying VAT taxes when they're going the opposite direction.

[01:03:09] So, you know, the simplicity of, oh, my gosh, we're triggering a tariff war as opposed to the complexity of, well, it's not exactly a level playing field to begin with for lots of historical, maybe even good historical reasons. I don't know. But getting back to, like, you know, we've got to make sure as many jobs get created and sustained in the U.S. as we can is not a bad thing. I mean, that's the thing that we should be trying to do, whether you call yourself a Democrat or call yourself a Republican.

[01:03:39] You should be able to embrace that notion and have open, honest discussions about, you know, what are the facts that exist and what are things you might do in order to, you know, create and sustain jobs in the U.S. and build a supply chain here and, you know, think many steps ahead. I mean, I didn't fully understand how vulnerable we were in critical minerals until the last two or three years. And, you know, I do now.

[01:04:06] I had a great podcast with a guy in Boulder here who's deep in that industry. And for the first time just through that podcast discussion, you know, I understood what people meant when they said how China is able to manipulate those markets in order to anyone who starts to make inroads. They just destroy the market for a while until that company goes out of business and then they raise the prices again. And they have the market power to do that.

[01:04:28] And for us to change that, you know, is going to take a, you know, a government, a U.S. government having a persistence measure in years with kind of the attitude that we can't allow ourselves to remain in a situation or we could be held hostage with critical technology. I mean, those are discussions we need to have and we need to have them not from, you know, you sound like you like Trump so you're evil too standpoint.

[01:04:53] We need to have them from a, you know, let's decipher all this noise out there and talk about, you know, what's really going on and what we need to do and why we need to do it and not get too caught up in if someone kind of identifies as an independent or a socialist or a Republican or something else. Libertarian. Yeah. As long as they're not doing bad things, you know, I think, you know, people should be heard. 100%. And we needed to create the space for those conversations to happen. Right?

[01:05:23] I don't think there's been enough of that for the last however many years. You think that can change in the foreseeable future? Yeah. I think we already are seeing a change in Colorado. I mean, like, we're, folks are willing to come to the table from all sides of the arguments and, like, and have the discussion. And I think that's really encouraging. Like, I, it gives me a ton of optimism for the state. And, like, you know, I continue, despite some of the challenges, this is still the state I'd want to live in.

[01:05:52] This is, in my mind, the best state in the country, as we've said. So, I think we get that. Like, I think that the, I think the shared set of values we hold as Coloradans just runs deeper than political affiliation. And I think that that's really important. And I think that's what brings people to the table. And we'll continue to bring people to the table. I think that's true. And I know it's true if you look at it backwards looking in time.

[01:06:19] But I think there has been some danger recently in Colorado where, where the behavior didn't mimic that. You know, that, you know, maybe it's, you know, because of, you know, Trump and the way people feel about Trump. But we got to the point where you couldn't just have conversations. Maybe that's going to thaw again in the near future. I hope so. Maybe it's already thawed quite a bit. Yeah.

[01:06:43] But, you know, you go back even a year or two ago or three years ago, you couldn't, you couldn't just have a casual conversation, you know, and say stuff that sounded like you didn't hate Trump. Because if it sounded like you didn't hate Trump, you know, a lot of people didn't want to talk to you, at least on the political front. At least I think that is true to be said. Maybe it's just here in Boulder. I don't know. But Denver, too. But Denver was that way, too. I remember having a couple of conversations in Denver.

[01:07:13] I'm like, did we just have that conversation? But it was that way. And now. It certainly was that way. Now, I mean, you've said that people have accused you of kind of being on the Trump train for some of the beliefs or thoughts you have around things he's doing. But you're also, like, helping lead these conversations now in this state, right? So I do think it's thawed quite a bit.

[01:07:31] Like, I do think that, like, the fact that people are willing to engage with you and, you know, all, like, the letters and, like, the research that you've been putting out and, you know, your beliefs that you've been putting out. The fact that there's a community willing to engage with that. That tells me that there's something going on. That there's some level of collaboration that's, like, rising above the sense of, like, oh, he just wants red elected or he just wants blue elected or, you know, whatever. Like, it's like, no, let's talk about the state. Let's talk about this thing as a whole.

[01:08:00] Like, I do think that that's a reason for optimism. Yeah, no doubt. I think we can work hard and open up conversations. And if I have two goals on the political front, it's one, do what's best for Colorado. And two, get people talking again. You know, talking and listening and hearing and learning, including me. You know, like, you know, I had a really interesting conversation with a college, not a college grader,

[01:08:30] because recent college grads, so-called, like, early 20s, who's a Colorado kid who moved to New York and is in New York now. And he was back here and we're shooting the shit. And he's singing the praises of Madabi. Madabi? Madabi? And he was able to engage in a conversation and kind of explain why and, you know, and explain, you know, how – and the stuff he said was not stuff I expected.

[01:08:54] It was stuff like when there was a snowstorm, you know, he, you know, had this idea to just start paying people to get shovels out and clean up the sidewalks and that it feels safer there now and, you know, it feels like the government's working better now. And I'm like, those weren't – that's not socialism stuff. That's, you know, that's execution. You know, it feels safer and it feels like the trains are running on time more and, you know, and the streets are a little bit more clean. I mean, that's not a Republican or a Democrat. Those are good things, yeah.

[01:09:24] That's good for humans. Your city's better. It's functioning better. So if someone's a socialist and they make the city run better, go for it. Yeah. I think – I mean, I think, like, there's an element of too much of anything can be a bad thing. And historically we've been a decently purple state. And I think that's part of why I love working in rural Colorado is because it still is really purple.

[01:09:53] Well, you guys are probably pretty bright purple in some of those rural areas. Totally. Right? Especially when you overlap them all. Yeah. Maybe even reddish purple. But I think, like, that forces people to come to the table. And I think that's really healthy. I think when, like, you get too much of any one thing, it's easy to just kind of fall into the same loops on both sides. Like, again, this is not a political statement. This is just kind of how humans act. Like, herd mentality is a thing.

[01:10:21] We, you know, the bigger the herd, the louder the voice. And you kind of keep gaining it. And then it changes or whatnot. But that's part of what I love about rural Colorado. The pendulum swings. Right? And we've seen that in different places. And, but, like, I think it's core to remember that, like, even if we don't always vote purple anymore, to have the purple spirit of entertaining conversation. And, like, remembering collaboration is more important than competition.

[01:10:50] It's really about how do we, like, do what's best for all of us. If we can keep the values ahead of the parties, I think that's where we win. And that, yeah, that to me, you know, when I look at Colorado and when I look at the people who live here and why they live here, like, I have hope around that. Because I think at the end of the day, you know, we all appreciate our neighbors. And we all, like, believe that we happen to be and, you know, we're fortunate to get to live in such an amazing place.

[01:11:18] And, like, that gives me, that gives me optimism. Also, we've got to get ready for our, the real fight, which is going to be us versus AI. So what is going on with AI? What do you think of AI? Is AI going to get the better of us humans? Or are we going to merge with them and become half AI and half human? Half, you know, what's going on with AI from rural Colorado? Colorado standpoint.

[01:11:43] You know, one of the most entertaining conversations, experiences I've had this entire, we do a ton of traveling. We're all over the state with our job. And I love it. But, like, earlier this year, I was out in a community in eastern Colorado. And I went out. By the way, what's in eastern Colorado? I mean, I know it's western Colorado. I know what's going on in Colorado Springs and Pueblo. And I know what's going on in Fort Collins and Greeley. But what's going on in eastern Colorado? Eastern Colorado is awesome.

[01:12:10] It's, I mean, you talk about people who have so much pride for their community and their state. Like, that shows up in eastern Colorado in spades. You're building some nice golf courses in a lot of areas out there. I know. I'm itching to go play rodeo dunes. Yes. But, yeah, no, they, it's like, you grow up in a place that's always going to be home, right? And a lot of people in these communities, like, they grow up.

[01:12:37] And I was victim of this as well, even growing up in Durango. And Durango is a very attractive community. But, you know, the idea was, like, you couldn't have opportunity. You had to leave, right? You have to go elsewhere to gain opportunity. And I think, like, that's amplified in some of our truly more rural communities. Like, you know, Aspen's not rural the same way Sterling, Colorado's rural. And a lot of folks leave and they don't ever see a path back, even if they want it. So people who live in downtown Aspen think they're in rural Colorado?

[01:13:06] Technically, by the definitions. They think they're ranchers and cowboys. By the definitions, they are. Yeah. Because a lot of the definitions are based on population, right? So, but you have people who want to figure out a way home and they just don't see a path of where they can have prosperity. And, like, we're starting to see a lot of that change in eastern Colorado. There's, like, culture, like, vibrancy. We jokingly. I like to see a path where they can achieve prosperity. I've got to remember that. See a path for the extreme prosperity because that's really what we're talking about. That's what it's about. That's what it's about.

[01:13:36] And that's, like, where I come to, like, why we need to be invested in, you know. We need to encourage high-growth companies because if I grow up in a community in eastern Colorado, I go to the University of Oklahoma for college, and then I go and get plugged in with agile space industries, like, how do I bring that back, right? How do I have that path to be able to return home? Like, people want to be home. It's always going to be home.

[01:14:01] And a lot of these communities are really investing in the arts, the culture around the community. And, like, we're starting to see these businesses grow. So when you say, like, what's out there, they, specific to Sterling, that's the community. And they have an amazing economic development leader who grew up in the community. And he sees, like, hey, we need more than just agriculture and the prison system for our economy. We need to be creating these growth companies as well.

[01:14:26] And so he organized an ag tech demo day, for lack of a better term, and brought a bunch of ag tech companies, not only from Colorado, but from all across the country to eastern Colorado. And then he got their customers there. So we got all these farmers and growers and ranchers to show up, give their time, to come learn about all this technology in their industry. And, like, real business deals were done that day. It was really a really cool thing to say or to see.

[01:14:52] So, you know, that's a long-winded way of coming back to the story of what's happening in AI. One of the most fascinating conversations I had was out there. And I was talking with three gentlemen. One of them owns a feedlot. One of them runs a grain co-op for northeastern Colorado. And one of them runs the, not corn, but he does derivative trading out there for a company.

[01:15:20] And all very successful individuals, ages 45 to 70. And they were telling me how they were using Claude in their day-to-day operations. And I was like, okay, I did not show up to Sterling thinking that I was going to be, like, talking about AI. I kind of thought, like, all right, let's put that one in the back pocket, right? And here I am getting pitched on all these different use cases and, like, beef calculators and how it's, like, helped them trade and beat their peers who aren't using it. And I was just like, this is blown away.

[01:15:48] And that moment for me was like, okay, it's here. And, you know, it's more a matter of adoption. Like, I think, you know, it's, everybody said the iPhone was silly. And now we all have one in our pocket, right? Like, I think the adoption curve is probably the fastest adoption curve we've ever seen in the history around something in technology. But, yeah, I think AI is here. I think it's here to stay. I think, you know. There's a big prediction. AI is here to stay. Yeah, yeah. Let me go out on a limb there. But...

[01:16:17] Oh, no wonder you're a venture capitalist. Yeah. You can see the future. Follow trends. Yeah, I'm just another member of the herd. No, but, like, we use it every day. It's saved us $30,000 in software subscriptions, right? We've gone in and we're a small team. We're two and a quarter people. I say a quarter. My brother's a venture partner. So it's Mark and I full time and Jamie's quarter time with us. Oh, I didn't know Jamie was on a quarter. Yeah. So we're a small operation and, you know, for us it's given us the lift.

[01:16:47] That 55 kind of investments that we've done, we're starting to feel it. And it's given us the lift now to be like, okay, we don't necessarily have to hire all those people, but we can get the same lift through these tools. I can pull a ton off my plate from an administrative perspective and focus more on what I enjoy doing, which is, like, helping founders and working one-on-one with founders. And so I think it's been phenomenal for us and, yeah. Great.

[01:17:16] Well, it's been fun. I've enjoyed knowing you for, like I said, five years now. And we went through a few kind of, you know, scenarios together with Agile because Agile when I got involved, you know, there wasn't a CO there and we had to figure out how to get a CO. We had to figure out how to, you know, get money. We had to figure out a lot of things. And you were, you know, a pleasure to work with. You were a strength around the table, level-headed, insightful.

[01:17:47] You helped work to, you know, figure out what, you know, we need to do and how we need to go about doing it. And, you know, and Agile's very fortunate to have had you be part of it. And from a rural Colorado standpoint, you're very fortunate to have Greater Colorado Venture Fund, now Holiday Partners, be there looking out for the best interests of all of Colorado that isn't the front range. So thank you for everything you're doing for our state and for the venture capital community and for the tech industry in general

[01:18:17] and as a partner of yours in Agile, as a, you know, partner of yours. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. It's, you know, an honor and a dream to get to do this work and to get to do it where we do it. I forgot to ask you one important question. When is Agile going to be a unicorn? Ooh. Are we betters odds or what are we going for here? How about we just, I'll give you two choices. Very soon, soon or a little less than soon? Ooh. Let's go soon. All right. Good answer.

[01:18:47] Let's go soon. All right. Good deal. Thanks, Dan. All right, man. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Bear Roars. Check out Stretch, the new song from Dan Caruso with music by Jason Mendelsohn, available now on all streaming services. If you enjoyed the episode, please like and subscribe on your listening platform. This podcast was produced by Loud Bear Productions and edited by Hannah Schmetzer with support from Kendall Weinberg, Alex Kim, and Gibson Seagood. Thank you.