Re-release Michael Dougherty, Boulder County District Attorney

[00:00:00] In this episode of The Bear Roars, Dan Caruso sits down with Boulder County District Attorney Michael Dougherty, who is running to become Colorado's next Attorney General for a candid conversation on justice, public safety and leadership in a deeply divided moment. Michael reflects on his career as a prosecutor, from the Manhattan DA's office to leading Boulder County, and shares why he believes experience, integrity and independence from politics matter in the Attorney General's role.

[00:00:27] The conversation spans crime trends, human trafficking, mental health and diversion reform, public trust in government, and what it takes to lead the state's largest law office at a critical moment for Colorado. Let's poke the bear to kick off the conversation. Michael, District Attorney for Boulder County and running for Attorney General, is that right? Yes, and good afternoon, Dan. Thanks so much for having me on. I'm excited to talk to you today.

[00:00:56] Absolutely, and I've gotten to know you pretty well over the last three years, probably. Fairly well. I wouldn't say pretty well, but I've grown to respect and admire kind of how you are dealing with what are very delicate issues. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:01:17] Tell us who you are and why you're running and what your background is, but also benefit from a conversation about kind of the tricky issues of our day. We'll put it that way. They're very serious, very sensitive ones that reasonable people could have very differing views on,

[00:01:35] and want to show that we could have really good dialogues about discussion topics that are in other realms might be very difficult to talk about. Right. So tell us your track record and tell us why you're running for Attorney General and why you should be elected Attorney General. Well, to your point, we're living through a really trying time in our country, and it's important that the next Attorney General will have experience as a lawyer and as a leader, and I have both,

[00:02:05] but a proven track record of fighting for what's right and doing it with integrity and not doing it based on politics. And I think we hear that all too infrequently right now. And on any given issue, we have people screaming at one another from different sides. Yes, we do. I have a track record, as you know, of taking on major cases, responding to crises in our community and throughout the state of Colorado, and always seeking to do the right thing, regardless of politics, whatever way the wind is blowing.

[00:02:31] And to me, given the experience I had at the Attorney General's office, I know firsthand the impact and importance of that office, and that office being led by someone who's committed to doing justice without fear and without favor. And I had the great privilege of working at the Manhattan DA's office for 13 years. I was born in Brooklyn, New York. That's when my grandparents had emigrated from Ireland and settled in Brooklyn, New York. And after going to community college and going on to finish my four-year degree,

[00:02:59] I went to law school in Boston and then moved back to New York City to work for the Manhattan District Attorney's office. And I specialized in sex crimes cases and homicide cases, working some of the toughest but most meaningful cases in the justice system. And I was promoted to deputy chief of the sex crimes unit, overseeing 50 sex crimes prosecutors, and I started the human trafficking unit when I was there, which I also started here in the Boulder County District Attorney's office, the first one in the state of Colorado for any DA's office.

[00:03:27] Ultimately, though, I was put in charge of the data management and leadership of the entire office of 1,300 people. And, Dan, that leadership experience matters because the Attorney General's office here in Colorado is the largest law office in the state. We have 725 public servants working at the AG's office. Yeah, and you're running against someone who has similar experience to that as an attorney, I would assume? Is that true? No, that's wholly incorrect. So I respect my opponent's path. It was a different path.

[00:03:56] Very different path. To me, if you're going to be leading the Attorney General's office, it cannot be your first time walking into a courtroom. And you have to have experience leading large law offices, inspiring staff. But is that really the case, that your opponent doesn't have experience of that nature? She has experience, but of that nature? She has different experience, but that's correct, yes. What experience relative to courtrooms and being a lawyer and prosecuting cases does she have?

[00:04:24] From what I'm aware, just to answer your question directly, from what I'm aware, she has never handled a case in the state of Colorado herself. And she has not led a large law office. So given the size of the AG's office and the role that office plays in choosing when and how to take the federal government to court, if that's appropriate, what that office does for public safety, consumer protection, environmental justice, the list goes on and on. That experience really matters. And from my experience working at the AG's office, I know that firsthand.

[00:04:53] And I became the head of the criminal section for the Attorney General's office shortly after moving to Colorado. So I've handled cases all around the state. Election fraud, political corruption, murder cases. And for the last eight years, I've had the honor of serving as the District Attorney for Boulder County. So you mentioned human trafficking, a term you hear a lot right now. Tell us what human trafficking really means in a practical sense.

[00:05:19] What examples are out there, maybe in our broader community, meaning Colorado and even broader than that, help us know what's really going on there. It's not something that people like me encounter. We hear people talk about it from a press or political standpoint. But I don't experience it myself. And I suspect a lot of people hear about it but don't really understand what that really entails and really means in a real-world sense.

[00:05:49] Right. To your point, I think when a lot of people hear human trafficking, they picture cargo containers being brought over on ships with people packed in there. And that certainly has happened over time. But in Colorado, human trafficking is often seen as and defined under the law as people being coerced either by violence or other means into sexual acts or labor trafficking. We tend to see, although labor trafficking happens at a higher rate, we tend to see more cases of sex trafficking being investigated and prosecuted in our justice system here in Colorado.

[00:06:19] When you talk to experts about human trafficking, it's often going to happen in states like Colorado where we have highways crisscrossing the state. We have an international airport and we're not that far from another border. So we see people being trafficked all throughout the metro area. The thing with human traffickers is they want to keep victims without having ties to the community. So they don't want them going, for example, to the same store every day where they might start to build the trust and the rapport with someone and then report what's happening. So they tend to move them around the metro area from hotel to hotel to hotel.

[00:06:49] So of the human trafficking cases we've prosecuted, and there are many that we've prosecuted successfully since I started that human trafficking unit, it tends to be never just Boulder County alone. It's always operations that have touched other jurisdictions within the metro area. And how prevalent is it? Hundreds or thousands of people? We see more cases than one would guess. I mean, Boulder County is such a beautiful place, but we see a lot of human trafficking cases that come through Boulder County.

[00:07:18] We also, in Boulder County, like every community, we have at-risk kids. So we do a lot of outreach to community organizations to try to reach kids before they end up in trafficking operations. We engage in preventive attempts, too, on social media and trying to identify at-risk kids. So we've done really targeted operations to try to help kids before they're victimized, and we've done targeted operations to catch people who are looking to sexually assault kids, to prey upon kids before that happens.

[00:07:48] Yeah. I mean, very serious issue, and one you're, I know you're very focused on it, so I wanted to start there. I understand that murders in the United States and in Colorado are at a historical low this year. I think I even heard maybe a 25-year low. I think I even heard maybe even dating further back than that. Tell me what that's all about. How is it that murders are coming down so much?

[00:08:18] It's kind of hard to see something change that abruptly, that significantly. Is that true, first of all? I think it's true. So is that true? And if so, what are the contributing factors to that, do you think? Or do you know? Or are we still trying to figure out why they've come down so much? So it is true from everything I see and look at in terms of the data and my own observations that the murder rate has declined sharply in Colorado and across the nation,

[00:08:46] which is, in my mind, long overdue good news. For too often, for, excuse me, for too long, we haven't prioritized public safety in Colorado, and we've seen community... But it has just declined. I mean, it's declined dramatically. Yes. Is that right? That's correct. And I think, in part, it's because of two factors I look at. It's a complex issue, but I think there are two driving factors. The first is the pandemic certainly made crime worse in Colorado and across the nation, for all the reasons you know.

[00:09:13] And it showed, really, the cracks in the foundation of our society. And with each year that passes since the pandemic, I've seen crime numbers trending in the right direction, including the murder rate. I also have seen a greater effort to enforce the rule of law, and the rule of law has to be enforced at every level for us to maintain community safety. I also saw that when I was a prosecutor in New York City. So when I first became a prosecutor in New York City, the number of people being killed in the city per year was approximately 2,200.

[00:09:43] And then during my time at the Manhattan DA's office, and I was there for 13 years, that number came all the way down to below 300. And talk about a sharp decline. I mean, that was a crazy decrease. And it's in large part because of the rule of law was being enforced at every level. And I think that helps curtail the number of murders that are being committed, but also ensure that people are being apprehended and held responsible when they do commit a murder. Yeah, but let's say Colorado, for example. What is Colorado?

[00:10:10] Colorado, what's interesting is that this is happening across the area, yet I don't get the sense that Colorado dramatically changed its behavior in the last year or so on how it approaches the rule of law. And I suspect that's true in a lot of states. There wasn't a drastic change and reckoning. Maybe there's some at the federal level, and maybe that has more of an effect than I would think.

[00:10:38] It seems like there's something more to it than that. To me, there's still a little bit of what's really driving it to drop that much in such a short period of time. Recognizing it's been on a downward trend since the peak of COVID, but we're talking about we're way better than pre-COVID levels if we're at a 25-year low. Which is great. I agree. It's complex. And throughout my career, I've been a prosecutor for 28 years.

[00:11:04] We see an ebb and a flow with the crime numbers, and obviously we want to pay careful attention to it and respond appropriately. But I tend not to overreact in the moment or point to any one thing as the reason. I certainly think the pandemic was a driving force. I do think... For certain, the pandemic made the situation go the wrong direction. Right. No doubt about that. I do think more enforcement has helped in terms of prevention because the rule of law is being enforced. And to me, what that means is three things, really.

[00:11:34] First, if you have a low-level offender who's being stopped and held responsible for whatever the low-level offense is, that prevents them from going on to commit another offense anytime soon. Second, these things tend to... Most murders aren't premeditated and planned out days in advance. I mean, that's what we look... You know, that's what we watch in the movies and on TV. But most murders happen in a fairly short period of time in terms of forming the intent to commit the murder.

[00:11:59] I think the more we enforce the rule of law, we have a cultural, societal impact on that that's particularly important. And finally, the third point, if we can solve murders and hold people responsible, we obviously keep them from going on and reoffending. Yep. Yeah, but I agree with you on all those points. But it's hard to say there's been that much significant change in this short a period of time.

[00:12:23] So it'll be interesting to see as the data is better understood and the patterns are better understood, kind of how the facts become more clear, at least to me. Maybe they're more clear to you. No, I think you're right. It's a complex issue. Certainly when we see... Putting aside COVID for a minute, we've seen crime go up and down. And there are different things we could look at. Those are some of the conversations you and I have had over the years. But there's really...

[00:12:52] It's hard to identify any one driving factor. Sometimes if there's gang violence, you can look at gang issues. We haven't had that in Colorado to the extent that would explain the numbers. We've seen, for example, homicides drop, but domestic violence homicides have gone up in the past year. Really? What would you attribute that to, do you think? I think it's a couple things. I think partly is the need for us in Colorado to develop what we have here in Boulder County,

[00:13:15] which is a protocol to identify what domestic violence offenders are more likely to go on to commit a more serious offense. Because domestic violence offenders have a greater propensity to re-offend than other offenders might. So just by the very nature of the relationship and their continued contact with the victim. So we have in place now in Boulder County, along with all of our law enforcement agencies, what's called the lethality assessment protocol.

[00:13:41] The importance of that is my office handles 8,000 cases per year total. Traffic, misdemeanor, and felony. 8,000. Of that 8,000, 1,000 are domestic violence cases. So we're asking law enforcement and prosecutors in my office to do the impossible, which is say, of these 1,000 per year, which one of these might blow up into something worse? So we use a validated risk assessment instrument in every domestic violence case now. That does three basic things. First, it connects the victim with treatment providers in the community who can help them.

[00:14:11] Second, it gives law enforcement and the courts and our office an idea of what offenders are most likely to re-offend and possibly cause death to the victim. And third, that information from that risk assessment instrument is shared with the victim. So the victim has some knowledge about, hey, we think you're at greater risk. You and your kids might face greater risk of harm based on this instrument.

[00:14:33] So there was just a bill introduced in this last past week, and I'm going to strongly support that bill, which is going to require law enforcement around the state to develop a lethality assessment protocol based on the work we've done here in Boulder County. Is that bill likely to pass? I believe it will. It's going to have the support of the district attorneys from around Colorado based on my conversations this week. And I'm optimistic that when people see that it's a one-page instrument, it doesn't add a lot to the work, but it adds a lot for community safety. I think we'll see a lot of support.

[00:15:03] So you're a Democrat. Are you a lifelong Democrat? Yes. So how does that influence how you do your current job? How would they influence how you would do your job as attorney general? So the honest answer is not at all. I never think about, I mean, I'm a Democrat and proud to say that I'm a Democrat. It has no impact on my work. So to me, the rule of law and doing justice means not thinking about political affiliation or being guided by political ambition ever.

[00:15:33] So I've prosecuted law enforcement and firefighters in our jurisdiction, but also elected officials from my own party. And to me, it means doing justice with integrity and not letting politics or political views influence me. It's why I'm really honored, Dan, to have bipartisan support for my campaign for attorney general. So when I was announcing my campaign for attorney general, I reached out to the Democratic district attorneys and Democratic sheriffs, and I'm honored to have their support.

[00:16:01] And then I reached out to the Republican district attorney, starting with Ann Kelly down in the San Luis Valley. And my office helped her with a serial killer prosecution a couple of years ago. And at the end of the conversation with Ann, in which I told her, I'm running for attorney general, she said, I want to endorse you, but you don't want the R on your website because it's going to hurt you. And I didn't even pause for a second before saying, you know what, I think I am and people are sick and tired of how divided this country has become. And I'd be honored to have your endorsement.

[00:16:29] And she was one of the first Republican DAs to endorse me. And that's been true with Republican sheriffs. In fact, I'll tell you a good story. I reach out to the sheriffs in any jurisdiction that I'm going to visit as a courtesy and because I have a strong working relationship with law enforcement over the years. And I went to a Republican sheriff down in Gunnison County. And I went in and he quickly told me he's been in law enforcement for 40 years. And the image that's coming to mind for you is what he looked like, by the way. And I- Like scruffy?

[00:16:59] Yes, definitely. And so I was talking for about five minutes and he put up his hand. He's like, you could stop. If you're good, I'm good. And I was thinking to myself, wow, this is a really long drive for what's turning out to be a very short conversation. But effective. And while he said, for the first time in his 40-year career, he was going to endorse, support, and vote for a Democrat. And I'm heartened by that. And that's what we need more of in this country. We need people who are going to stand up and fight for what's right and do it with integrity and then communicate why those are the right decisions.

[00:17:29] And I recognize not everybody's going to agree all the time. I'm not Pollyannish about it. But I do believe we've become overly politicized in elective offices around the country. And that as a prosecutor, I've lived and learned and demonstrated throughout my entire career that's not how I operate.

[00:17:44] Yeah, I'm deeply concerned about not just in the attorney general ranks but in other political leadership positions that there are so few politicians who can just speak in a way that isn't colored by what party that they belong to. Right.

[00:18:11] I think John Fetterman is one of the few examples you could point to right now of a politician who is clearly aligned with one of the parties, in his case Democrat. But he's also able to and willing to say things that he believes in even if they are not aligned with this party. And typically it's just the kind of common sense things that most of us would point to and say, yeah, whether you're Republican or Democrat, that just makes sense what you're saying right now.

[00:18:41] But that is so rare right now. And I've been friends for a long time with our current attorney general, Phil Weiser, and still friends with them. But I've been very alarmed by how much politics he has brought into his role as attorney general. And I think it's okay to have your politics.

[00:19:06] But when you're doing your job, whether it's your job as governor or your job as mayor or your job as an attorney general, you have to first look beyond kind of your political affiliations. Okay, let me make sure I'm doing what's right. And I've just seen lots of examples where it seems like it's been tainted by the political party that he's part of or others are part of. And that's on both sides of the aisle.

[00:19:32] This isn't a Democrat, Republican, but I see you as being able to have your party affiliation, which is great. But when it comes to doing your job, you approach that in a much more, what I think is appropriate, much more responsible way. And I know who you're running against. I know Jenna as well. Not as well, but I've known her for a while.

[00:19:53] And I think whenever I think of Jenna, the first thing I think of is the active role she took in trying to keep our now-President Trump off of the ballot for reasons that made very little sense to me and to many others. Keeping off the ballot for a crime that she thought maybe he was guilty of or others maybe thought he was guilty of, but one that he was never charged for and certainly never found guilty.

[00:20:22] Yet trying to remove the nominee of one of our political parties from him off the ballot because of I don't know why. And that just seems so – that alone seems disqualifying to me for someone who wants to be an attorney general. That was such a political act that just seems to be against what is just our political process.

[00:20:45] You don't have to like Trump or agree with Trump or vote for Trump or be in the same political party to Trump to say, you know what, one thing we don't do in this country is use our political office to keep the nominee of one of our political parties from being on the ballot. That just seemed really odd to me. But I won't ask you to comment on that.

[00:21:03] Well, I'll just say that throughout my entire career I've been passionate about fighting for justice and doing the right thing without letting political affiliation or ambition ever influence or impact what I'm doing. And I have a long track record of that and that's why I have the support and endorsements that I do from law enforcement and from district attorneys because I've always done the job with integrity. And you're absolutely right. The role of the district attorney and also the role of the attorney general is incredibly impactful here in Colorado, especially right now.

[00:21:32] The role of the attorney general making sure that the next AG has a proven track record of not operating in a hyper partisan manner. I think people share your view that the last thing we need in Colorado is an attorney general who's going to be guided by politics. And I've had the honor for 28 years now of standing up in court and saying, I'm here on behalf of the people. I'm never looking to get myself on MSNBC. I'm always looking to do the right thing. And I've had a lot of help along the way, too. I mean, I've worked with great colleagues.

[00:22:01] But I want to stress that it's just part of who I am and how I'm hardwired. And that's why I've done the work I've done. And I also think, to your point, it's why we have 49% of the state now are unaffiliated voters. 49%. Put me. There you go. It's because people are sick and tired of the hyper partisanship that's not producing real results for Americans. My wife is unaffiliated, actually. My wife, Antonia. And she tells me, though, I'm strong in the polls and I have her vote.

[00:22:28] But I think having 49% of Coloradans who are unaffiliated should give us pause and push us to look in the mirror and say, what does that say about the current approach of the two parties? And the attorney general's office should be apolitical. So I'm a proud Democrat, lifelong Democrat. But when it comes to being attorney general or district attorney, I'll always be guided by justice and the rule of law. Yeah, I think Colorado has such an opportunity to lead from a political perspective.

[00:23:02] We, but I don't think we're taking advantage of that opportunity, by the way. But we have the opportunity because I think it is a pretty balanced state. It's okay that we're mostly aligned with one party versus another party. But I think because there's, I think, a lot more pragmatic approach by people at large in Colorado, it almost gives permission for the leaders of Colorado to kind of be aligned with their party,

[00:23:25] which is Democrat party, but be aligned with it, but not subscribe to the extremity of that party, but manage more from the middle, kind of re-engage in being a state that says, you know what, we're first and foremost about Colorado. That's where our alignment is, and we want to do what's best in Colorado. And to do what's best for Colorado, we're going to have to be pragmatic, thoughtful, think about everyone in Colorado, and provide some leadership from kind of the pragmatic center somewhere.

[00:23:55] It could be center-left, but be pragmatic. And I really hope whoever our next governor is is able to kind of be a little bit more balanced than what we're seeing in some other examples, and that we're able to emerge as kind of a leading state for bringing the country back together and bringing our people back together.

[00:24:17] It's with great pain, you know, that you see on TV, experience, you know, in kind of real life, you know, read a Twitter feed to see so much divisiveness right now. Right. I will share with you that I was driving down I-70 recently from a campaign event on a Saturday afternoon up in the mountains back to Denver, and I stopped at a gas station when I went inside, two guys behind the counter, and I said,

[00:24:45] I'm running for attorney general, and I'm not going to try to sell you anything. I'm just curious. What do you think is the biggest problem we have in Colorado right now? And there was a pause, and they just stared at me, and I thought to myself, well, I'll never try this again. But then one of them said, you know what it is? It's a crime. And he went on to explain he won't take his kids to a Nuggets game because he's worried about their safety. Wow. But then he said something that to me was really powerful, which is, but he's not sure who to believe about crime in Denver. Yeah.

[00:25:13] And that speaks to the lack of trust that people have in government and our democracy right now. We have to restore the trust. Absolutely. And that requires leading with integrity. And talking to him about that and him recognizing that he's not sure what news source. Or leading with honesty first. Right. And be willing to acknowledge that people might have a different point of view from each other. Yes. But honestly portray the situation.

[00:25:39] And then, you know, give your perspective on how you're aligned. I think a lot of the norm right now is to distort the facts to make your case. Whether you're on the left side or the right side. It's like let's start by acknowledging what we know to be factual and differentiate that from opinion. Right. And differentiate it from what you don't know to be factual. You know, I don't know if this is true or not true. But present it that way.

[00:26:08] I think leading from first from honesty and then leading from integrity. Boy, do we need that right now. Definitely. That's why I'm running for attorney general. Good. So you still roll up your sleeves and prosecute cases. Is that right? That is correct. Yes. So tell us, you know, how often that happens. And I know you were involved in a pretty serious high profile case recently. Maybe tell us a little bit about that one. Sure. Well, I've always believed if you're going to be a leader and as a leader, you should do the work that you're asking others to do for you.

[00:26:37] So I continue to handle criminal cases throughout my entire career. Even when I was promoted in the Manhattan DA's office to oversee the day-to-day management and leadership of 1,300 people, my one – I hesitate to say demand because the district attorney was an incredibly powerful person. But my one request was that – Farm request, we'll call it. Yes. Was that I be allowed to still handle cases. And he agreed. And I've continued to do that as the elected district attorney in Boulder County. I handle and try several cases a year.

[00:27:04] So just last month in December, I handled a trial involving a fire department captain who sexually assaulted five women through his role at the fire department. And he used his power to coerce them and sexually assault them. And those five women had tremendous courage and perseverance in going through – first in coming forward and then going through the criminal justice system. And the jury found him guilty of all charges. And it was an honor to work on that case.

[00:27:28] Earlier last year, I handled the prosecution of the woman who killed Magnus White, the young cyclist who was riding down the diagonal in one of his final training rides before going to ride for Team USA in Scotland. And again, just such a – well, that was a horrible, tragic case. And an honor to work with his family in fighting for justice for the family and for Magnus, but also for the entire community. And I continue –

[00:28:23] Right. I was always nervous when I was on that diagonal. And with good reason. When I – so I formed a vehicular response team when I became district attorney. We respond 24-7 to any vehicular fatality that may result in criminal charges. In other words, the driver who's at fault or might be at fault is still alive. So if that driver's still alive, we respond. There's an office. I often respond myself regardless of the time of day or night. Right.

[00:28:51] And if you tell me there's a fatal crash in Boulder County, it's usually going to be on 287 or the diagonal. Like you see these problem areas. And I'm really heartened by the response that Boulder County is now building that bike path. If anything, it's overdue. It's almost done, right? Too late for Magnus, tragically. But Magnus was riding his bike and the defendant had stayed up all night. She had drank during the course of the night. She got barely any sleep and then got behind the wheel of the car.

[00:29:21] And before driving, she was texting a friend saying she was falling asleep. So she knew full well that she was not capable of driving safely. And she got on the diagonal and not only fell asleep, but passed out to such an extent that after she veered off the road a couple of times and self-corrected, she then veered off again. So each one of those were an opportunity for her to pull over. And instead, she kept driving. And that choice she made is what killed Magnus.

[00:29:49] She veered off the road, hit Magnus at full speed. Didn't even realize she hit him. He smashed into the windshield and went over the car. Her windshield was crushed. And she went about another 300 feet, so the length of a football field, before the bushes and high grass brought her to a stop. And when she got out of the car, she had no idea she'd hit anybody. And when she was informed she had, it was just a complete lack of remorse and no expression of concern or responsibility.

[00:30:19] So that case went to trial and she was found guilty of vehicular homicide and sentenced to state prison. And I appreciate the jury service and dedication and their effort to reach the right outcome. And now the white family, they've turned their pain into purpose and they're fighting for legislation to put road safety improvements in place and also change the sensing ranges around vehicular fatalities. And I don't know the back story of the woman who caused the murder.

[00:30:49] But I'm sure she had things going on in her life that were causing her stress and drinking and irresponsible behavior. And sometimes I imagine it's got to be hard in cases like that to know that the person's life got taken as a result of that behavior. But also looking and observing that, you know, the person who was behaving that way,

[00:31:17] you know, there's something, you know, not to excuse that by any sense, but there's something different in that than someone intentionally committing a murder. And that's kind of make it emotionally hard to do your job, I would imagine. No, you're absolutely right. It's also why we try to look at the circumstances underlying what's happened and try to have an understanding of what brought the person into the justice system. It's easier in some respects when the outcome is not the death of another person, of course. But even in those cases, we look at it.

[00:31:46] But when I say in cases where death did not result, it's why we have a really robust restorative justice and diversion program in my office. It's regarded as the leading diversion program in the entire state of Colorado. And we've put a lot of effort into maintaining a 92% success rate. What that means is people who go through diversion successfully complete the program and any requirements, including treatment, and are able to get through the program successfully. And then we dismiss the case so they don't carry with them the collateral consequences

[00:32:14] of a felony conviction or misdemeanor that makes it hard to get a job or get in to see you or find an apartment that they can pass a security check on. That program's been incredibly successful. That 92% success rate also reflects that they're not re-arrested. So I think that goes a long way to your point of trying to help people get on a better track or on the right track as opposed to making it more difficult for them to be a productive member of our community. And we've done a lot in that regard. We also launched, I launched the first mental health diversion program

[00:32:43] in the state of Colorado on low-level offenders to connect them with treatment in the community. Currently, the largest mental health facility in Boulder County is the Boulder County Jail. And in a community as well-resourced as Boulder County, it is startling and shocking and disappointing to me that we have the jail housing. 60% of the people in the jail today have serious mental health disorders because they're screened when they come into the jail, 60%.

[00:33:12] And that's just the sad reality, and we have to change that here in Colorado. I'm committed to continuing to work on it. That's why I started that mental health diversion program. That's why we have a competency court now in the Justice Center, and we just opened the alternative sentencing facility out by the jail. Those are all innovative steps that we've taken, and I want to see those taken statewide. I'm committed to it. But quite frankly, people shouldn't have to hit the doors of the courthouse or the jail to get the treatment they need. And Colorado ranks 48th in the nation for mental health treatment available

[00:33:41] in the community for those who need it. Yeah, and close to home here, Boulder, the city of Boulder and Boulder County, that should be a priority. And what a lot of people say is, therefore, we need to raise more tax dollars so that we can afford it. And I don't know, maybe that's true, maybe it isn't, but there are a lot of things we spend a lot of money on already that are much lower priorities. And the city of Boulder and probably county too own valuable assets

[00:34:11] that if you just sold a small sliver of them, you can raise the money to fund a facility like that. Every time I am driving on Broadway, just a little bit west of here where the hospital used to be, and now they're converting that into, among other things, offices for the city of Boulder. I'm like, how about you go sell that land there and use that money to go and augment the facilities? Right. We've got all kinds of available office space.

[00:34:38] We don't need to be spending our city dollars to build out office space if we don't have enough to augment our facilities that are needed to help those who have mental health challenges. Related to that, and this I would like to spend a fair amount of time on because I know you have some well-developed thoughts and a ton of experience behind that. So talk about the complex issue of encampments, of homelessness,

[00:35:07] of drug-related use around that, of mental health challenges around that, safety and usage of public facilities. All these things get commingled together. Tell us how you process that whole area. What do you find or believe to be the best approaches to balance how to help those in need

[00:35:34] with also recognizing that people have a right to be safe and secure and for their kids to be safe and secure and for the public space such as parks to be available for use. How do you think we best deal with that complex issue? Sure. So first it starts with us being 48th in the nation on mental health treatment. And we rank in the bottom 10 for substance abuse treatment being available in the community as well.

[00:36:01] So you may see in your own circle of friends and family. Let me pause you there. Why is Colorado so behind on those issues? So the popular answer is TABOR, which is the taxpayer bill of rights, makes it hard for the state and for local communities to invest money in behavioral health treatment, even when the money is available coming in as revenue for the state.

[00:36:24] I also think that it's doing exactly what you just touched on, which is reprioritizing what we're paying money for. So I get that TABOR, and I do believe TABOR is part of the problem, but I think it's more than TABOR. We see a lot of money being spent on a lot of things and not mental health treatment and substance abuse treatment. And I want to see that reprioritized because we have to move that up. So let's tell people what TABOR is when you mention TABOR. So TABOR is the taxpayer bill of rights.

[00:36:49] Douglas Bruce was the architect of TABOR, and every time I think about that, I'm struck by the fact that shortly after I became the head of the criminal section for the attorney general's office years ago, my team was responsible for prosecuting Mr. Bruce for, wait for it, tax evasion and tax fraud. Oh, really? Yes. And he was convicted and ultimately went to state prison for it. I probably shouldn't laugh, but so he was responsible because people talk about TABOR all the time. Yes.

[00:37:16] No, he was the brain, that was his brainchild, TABOR. And in a way, though, it does speak to Coloradans don't want to be taxed endlessly, and they want to know that their government's spending their money the right way. And I think that's something we all share. Yes. And Coloradans don't want to see those controls completely removed. 73% of the people in Colorado are in favor of controls on government and spending. That makes sense to me.

[00:37:41] But TABOR's been overly restrictive, and even when the state has a good source of revenue coming in, the state has to ask the voters and local communities have to ask voters for permission to use that money. So for your listeners in Boulder County, we're all familiar with how many ballot initiatives we get, which is asking us, can we use this money for this tax? Can we use this money for this tax? That's because the voters have to sign off on it as opposed to the government just doing it on their own. I think there's a balance to be struck there.

[00:38:08] I don't think communities that are outside the metro area should have to go to four-day school weeks or be unable to sustain community services and needs and have government offices closed a day or two per week because they can't stay open. So I think we need to see some kind of modification of TABOR. But I think your other point is correct, which is we need to reprioritize some of the things that are directly impacting community.

[00:38:32] Because when it comes to mental health and substance abuse, not only is it impacting families, we see it ending up in our homeless communities and in our justice system. So that's the first part of it. Let me jump in there, though, about the TABOR. If it was up to me, I would keep TABOR in place, I think. I would certainly hear out the discussion on both sides before I would conclude that.

[00:38:59] But where I would start with is a low confidence in our politicians who would be making the decisions to spend more money that they would do the right thing. So I would start with giving you the politicians to really spend more taxpayer money presumes you would do something appropriate with it. Right. And you haven't built my confidence.

[00:39:24] And I suspect you haven't built a lot of people's confidence that you would do that as opposed to just giving the ability to spend more money on stuff that probably isn't as well thought out. So I would have that bias going into it.

[00:39:35] But the second bias I would have is the great state of Colorado should be able to attract way more than our fair share of entrepreneurs, of investors, of corporations who are looking to move from where they are to somewhere else. We should be the place that is getting more of that inbound than pretty much anywhere else. Yes.

[00:40:05] There's a lot of businesses trying to leave the West Coast. Right. As an example, certainly businesses trying to leave the Northeast and they're looking for a new home. Instead of us, instead of our politicians doing everything that they can do to make us the most logical choice for businesses to come here and investment to come here so that we have more tax dollars to support our community, they do the opposite.

[00:40:30] They maybe they don't fully understand that they're doing the opposite, but they should be able to understand that they are actually discouraging those entrepreneurs, those tech investors and even corporations to come here. In fact, they don't even hold themselves accountable.

[00:40:48] So I would much rather than if, you know, if the goal is to have more of a tax base so that we could spend more money on different things, let's start working hard to look in the mirror and say, what do we need to do to make ourselves the best home possible instead of sending very mixed signals? You know, we had a event here in this very room. In fact, you know, Senator Bennett was the guest. He's running for governor. Right. I was sitting next to him here.

[00:41:13] This room was filled up just about two weeks ago with about 30 tech entrepreneurs and tech investors. And we weren't talking about the full gamut of of politics. We were we were talking for more than two hours about this one issue, which is, you know, we we all benefit our entire community benefits from having kind of a prosperous economy. That's what gives us the resources to do things that are good for everyone. And we all know that. I mean, we all know that that's not a revelation.

[00:41:43] We all know that. Yet we don't think our political leadership is leaning into that. We think they're they're they're behaving in ways that discourage those who want to leave the West Coast and are looking for somewhere else. Discourage them from Colorado because we're starting to look and sound like we're just an extension of California when it comes to our political rhetoric. And we should try to balance that a bit.

[00:42:07] We should try to make sure that we are politicians understand that they're hurting those most in need in Colorado by scaring away entrepreneurs and scaring away tech investors. Now, we have all the advantages of Colorado to counterbalance that. But we shouldn't be using those advantages to counterbalance. We choose them to enhance that message. Right. And make it a positive message across the board. So so I think when they politicians say, hey, we want to spend more money, let's change the table.

[00:42:35] It's like, well, why don't you guys like, you know, get your shit together more first. And then we can talk about whether over and above that, you know, we can make it easier for you to raise taxes. So you hit on a couple of really important points. I think part of it is about restoring trust. You have reason to doubt. We have reason to doubt government when it comes to spending of taxes. And especially now when a lot of families and people are struggling out there, people want to know that their tax money is going for good purpose and going to the appropriate priorities.

[00:43:05] So just one recent example. And when I first moved to Colorado, we were living in North Boulder and I would commute to the attorney general's office by bus every day. And it was never lost on me, nor have I forgotten the fact that I was paying taxes every year for the train line to be developed from Denver to Boulder. And there is a sensitive topic with some people. Right. And I think it's outrageous that we paid taxes in Boulder County for a train that never appeared. And now they're proposing to try it again.

[00:43:35] And my first reaction, and I work in government, my first reaction is- Proposing to try what again? To set up a light rail between Denver, Boulder, and Longmont. Who's proposing that? The state has been looking at it. This was in the news recently. So, but my first reaction is I'm not falling for this again. That's my first reaction. And I'm inclined to trust government. I work in government. But it's about restoring trust and making sure taxpayer money is going to what it's intended to go to. And it's going to the priorities of helping Coloradans live their lives.

[00:44:06] And not continuing to have Colorado be the sixth most regulated state in the country. Really? Yes, the sixth. So, to your point, and people see this, if they're trying to build a back porch on their property, the amount of time it takes, the regulations, the bureaucracy, and then for IT, tech, restaurants, businesses, times that by 100. We've become overly regulated in Colorado. We should not be the sixth most regulated state in the country because we're driving out business and tech leaders.

[00:44:35] And we're failing to attract business and tech leaders who are thinking about moving operations into Colorado in whole or in part. And I want to make sure as the next attorney general that we're not just slapping regulations onto every bill that's introduced and every law that we get passed. So, it's about recognizing that people should have control and independence. And we should also have local control and not a top-down approach from the metro region for all of Colorado. Colorado has diverse interests. And it should not be all run by the capital for all of Colorado.

[00:45:03] And I'm committed to representing all Coloradans as the next attorney general, including those outside the metro area. But I think your point about the TABOR piece is why we need to see a modification of TABOR. Because people are not going to support a repeal of TABOR right now, given the lack of trust that you just articulated so well. So, to me, it's about making sure that we have the taxpayer money going to the right purposes.

[00:45:27] But I think when we look at the mental health issues in our homeless encampments, and then we look at the fact that we're 48th in the nation, those two things are directly connected. Yep. So, let's go back to the broader discussion of encampments. Sure. And so, you started by saying, first and foremost, we need more mental health facilities. So, talk more about kind of that broader topic. Sure. So, a couple things about that. And I'm passionate about it. And that's why I started that mental health diversion program.

[00:45:57] Our state hospital in Colorado is currently a broken system, period. So, the state hospital is located, the main facility is located down in Pueblo. And we've seen staggering delays in criminal cases, including the King Soopers mass murder case that I prosecuted, because the state hospital is under-resourced and understaffed. We also have changes to the law that we have to make in Colorado. So, currently, when someone's found permanently… But before you go, the state hospital in Pueblo is a long ways from what we're seeing right now.

[00:46:27] Yes. You're saying the state hospital as if that particular hospital has some broader implications on this issue. Help me and help us understand that better. Sure. So, it impacts local communities throughout Colorado for this reason, Dan. So, the state hospital is where individuals are sent for competency evaluation and treatment and restoration so criminal cases can move forward. Here's the problem.

[00:46:54] When the state hospital has the backlog they do, which is hundreds of people that they cannot take into the state hospital, those people have to remain in county jails. So, currently, the Boulder County Jail, for example, on any given day, 40 individuals are at the Boulder County Jail who are supposed to be at the state hospital. A judge has ordered them to be transported to the state hospital, and the state hospital refuses to take them. That means 40 beds at the Boulder County Jail are taken up. Here's the downstream impact.

[00:47:21] If Boulder police make an arrest tonight and they're going to try to take the person to the Boulder County Jail, they first have to check to see if the jail has room. And if there's no room at the end, they're going to have to give that person a ticket. And if that person just tried to break into three cars on a street and they get a ticket and they're left there, whatever is driving them to engage in that criminal conduct is not being addressed. And they're going to go into car number four. So, I say state hospital. I say Pueblo. And you're right to ask me, well, what's the impact of that? That's part of it.

[00:47:49] It has an impact on the ground for community safety, particularly in communities like Boulder County, where we don't have the largest jail in the state. And the police should be able to use every bed there when they need to appropriately. Absolutely. The second part is under the law, we need to change competency. So, what do you mean? Let me pause there. Sure. And maybe this is me soapboxing a little bit, so I apologize.

[00:48:12] But when I think about political leadership and wanting to focus on Colorado, that's what I'm talking about. It's like, okay, there are all these mostly charged issues that our politicians could choose to engage in, most of which just sound like political hand-fighting between kind of one party and the other party. Not that some of those aren't serious issues.

[00:48:35] But I think they could probably reallocate their time and say, I'm going to spend a lot less time kind of, you know, opening up lawsuits, which the amount of lawsuits it seems like we've opened up in the state and attorney general's office in trying to fight kind of political battles. It's like tone that down and turn to issues that really are Colorado issues.

[00:48:58] They may be less, you know, less exciting, get less people's attention, but they're far more important on how, you know, people who live in Colorado live their lives. And you just don't see our politicians, you know, bringing those to the forefront, you know, talking about them in a responsible way and really rolling up their sleeves and finding solutions for them. They seem to burn way too many cycles on hyperpolitical rhetoric that gets us absolutely nowhere.

[00:49:27] Well, I certainly look at Congress and how dysfunctional our Congress has become. And I recently referred to the members of Congress with some exceptions, including, for example, Joe Neguse, who I think the world of, but as social media influencers, I'm like, what are they doing there? Like we see the lowest number of bills being passed in the history of this country. We need to have more leadership at the federal level as well. And to your point, the Attorney General's office has an impact on the lives of everyday Coloradans. And for any elected official, we should be thinking about the lives of those we serve and how we improve their lives,

[00:49:57] the affordability, the crime, the list goes on. And when it comes to the state hospital, it's not just my view based on cases and prosecutions from over the years. But in 2019, a federal judge handed down an order that every year the state hospital fails to comply with standards, the people of Colorado, the taxpayers, have to pay a fine. Every year since 2019, we've paid as a state between $10 to $12 million per year for failing to comply with those standards. And we pay that to who?

[00:50:27] It goes back to the state pays it. And then there's a commission that decides where that money is going to. In some ways, I wish the money, quite frankly, would go to Kansas because then I think we'd be harmed more and pushed to make a change. To me, it's going to be a priority to change it. The Attorney General is the attorney for the agency that runs the state hospital, and I'm going to continue to fight for this. The change on competency that I just want to hit on quickly. Wait, wait. You said something there, and I want to make sure people understand because you don't really want it to go to Kansas.

[00:50:54] I think what you're saying is because it gets recycled, some people like the fact that they – I don't know this because I'm putting words in your mouth. No, you're right. Yes. But what do you really mean by that? I'm glad you stopped me there. So what I would say is – let me just put it to you this way, and I'm going to be very candid here as always.

[00:51:12] But I see emails from the state trumpeting what's being done with the money, the fines, and the nonprofits and other agencies that that money goes to. And yes, it's going to good work. Wow. But it's – Okay, let's not assume just because it's going to an NGO it's going to good work. That's another discussion we're going to have because my eyes have been opened up wide in the last period of time.

[00:51:38] You know, I always assume when there was an NGO involved and they had some kind of cause that I've always envisioned. There were people there who were, you know, trying to do the right thing for whatever their cause is. And boy, do I second guess that now based on stuff that we're starting to hear. It sounds like, you know, that may be true in some cases, hopefully the majority of cases.

[00:52:00] But it sounds like there's a lot of scams going on right now in using NGOs as a way to redirect money from kind of taxpayers to others who are gaming the system and profiting and even becoming multimillionaires in the process. And I don't know what is true and not true, but, man, there are reasons to be very concerned. And we'll come back to that. So anyways, they're getting access to –

[00:52:28] Instead of celebrating what we're doing with the money that Colorado is being fined, we should, as a state, own the problem and fix the problem. It's been six years now. We're paying between $10 to $12 million. So let's assume – And what you're saying is that $10 to $20 million is going to some kind of commission who is then re-allocating that money for causes that, you know – Correct.

[00:52:54] And those causes – let's assume for a moment, because we could debate it, but I don't even know enough to say. Let's assume for a moment the money is going to good actors doing good work. It's fines that we're paying for failing to comply with a federal judge's decree on the state hospital. We should fix that problem. I'm committed to fixing that problem. It's harming people all along the way. And you're saying a little bit more than that. You're not just saying because a certain judge had a certain degree. You're saying it's a real problem that we have – 100%.

[00:53:22] Yeah, so it's – the judge is right to say you're not – so why we wouldn't reinvest that money? Right. We need to go and build out our capacity and increase the standards and fix the problem. It's like, okay, we're going to take money out of that system and redirect it elsewhere. It would be ridiculous. When I tried the King Soopers case, one of the doctors from the state hospital testified for the defense because they had a not guilty by reason insanity defense that they went with. And I'm grateful to the jury for working through that and finding the defendant guilty on all counts.

[00:53:53] When the doctor testified and I cross-examined the doctor, at one point I asked him how many doctors had been at the state hospital. How many doctors for this period of time the defendant was there? And the doctor admitted on the stand that for eight months there were zero doctors at the state hospital. Zero. So think about the last time you had a loved one in the hospital. If you went to visit them and you said, how's it going here? And they said, good, but they don't have any doctors here. I imagine you wouldn't leave your loved one there. We can't leave people at the state hospital and warehouse them.

[00:54:23] It's not fair to them. It's not fair to the community. It's also not fair to the victims in the criminal cases. I promise you we're going to fix that problem. It is a top priority for me. Is it a top priority for Jenna? I don't. So I've never heard her speak about it. She may have spoken about it before, but I've been very engaged in this. I've done bipartisan work on it. I'm going to continue to call attention to it because it's harming the entire state and we need to get it fixed. Okay.

[00:54:48] So let's go back to, you know, you're working away toward the broader encampments issue. And, you know, so keep going down that path. Okay. So on competency, when someone sounds permanently incompetent to stand trial means they can't understand the legal proceedings going on around them. The case has to be dismissed as a matter of law. And that might be the right thing since they can't understand what's happening in court. What's happening next under the law in Colorado is absolutely wrong, which is they're released back into the community without treatment and without medication.

[00:55:16] We're failing that person and we're failing community safety. The next part of what we're seeing with the crime problems that you're referencing is the rule of law has to be enforced at every level. And by that, I'll give you an example. So we had an individual living in an encampment along Boulder Creek and he had stolen bikes and stolen bike parts outside his tent. And he was there apparently for days. And there was a woman on her daily walk going by there.

[00:55:44] And she saw that was one of the bikes was actually her bike that had been stolen. Which, by the way, my bike was stolen a few years ago and it was caught on camera. And a couple weeks later, the police actually found it in an encampment and returned it to me, which is pretty crazy. Well, I'm glad you got it back. But that feeling of like going out and I had parked the bike just outside of a restaurant town.

[00:56:10] It was actually, I can't remember what the occasion was, but it was some kind of private event at Frascas. Because so there wasn't, so everyone was sitting down eating at once and therefore there wasn't usual traffic going in and out of the front door. But the bike was locked up just five feet from the front door. And the chains were cut and the bike was stolen. And, you know, you walk out there and you're like, I know I left my bike right there and it's gone.

[00:56:39] And then we saw some, like the cut chain was there. So we're like, holy shit. Right. And, you know, I've been fortunate in life. I haven't had, that's a relatively minor, you know, thing to have happen to you. But boy, do you get this feeling of holy shit. Right. A vulnerable. Right. I felt from that point forward. And again, that's a small example compared to what many people have to deal with. But it's so emotionally I felt it. Sure. And it made me rethink my perspective.

[00:57:08] And then for the cops to actually find it a couple weeks later. And it was, you know, they had some scratches and dents and stuff, but it was largely intact. It was pretty crazy. Right. Well, this woman saw her stolen bike. And you can imagine, given what you've just described, her reaction. I will share with you, I went home after this case happened and I asked my twins, we have a boy and a girl, and I asked them, what would you do if you saw your stolen bike at this encampment? And it was an interesting reflection of their personalities.

[00:57:38] And I said, I would take out my phone and I would hide in the bushes and call 911 and wait for the police to, and he's describing this whole thing. And his sister's looking at him with this incredulous look on her face. And I look at her after he gets done and she's like, I'd go over and be like, hey, buddy, that's my bike. I'm taking it. And that would be my approach as well, I think, in that moment. And that was this woman's approach. And she got punched right in the face. And the guy broke her nose.

[00:58:07] And not only injured her, but traumatized her. Oh, sure. So our office, of course, we prioritize that case. We handle any violent case as a priority. And we secured the maximum sentence allowed under the law, which was 16 years in state prison. And it was the right outcome given his criminal record and also what he did to this woman. So 16 years in state prison. Now, I could sit here as district attorney and tell you that's an example of a success in my office. And that's true.

[00:58:35] But it'd be short-sighted not to recognize that that should not even happen, especially in a community like Boulder County, where we have resources and we have a community that's more affluent in places than others. The fact that he was there with bike parts that were stolen and stolen bikes and just allowed to exist, what I'll say about this is the rule of law has to be enforced. And these problems can't simply be ignored. We're not doing anyone a favor when we simply say we're just going to leave them there and

[00:59:04] not help them, not provide treatment, and also not enforce the law. So that can't be the answer. Why in Boulder is that? It's not the complete answer. I think things are a little bit better now than they were a few years ago, perhaps. And I have deep respect for our law enforcement in town. In fact, my wife, Cindy, is the chair of the Police Foundation. I've had Chief Redford here on the podcast.

[00:59:28] And we help support what causes we can help support for the police. So I know he's passionate about this issue as well. But why is it in Boulder that a lot of people feel unsafe? They feel like they don't have access to the parks, that they get nervous riding their bike on their underpasses or along the Boulder Creek.

[00:59:58] Why does that situation sustain itself? I do think it's gotten better, as you pointed out. And certainly the numbers are trending in the right direction. And I always take note of the fact that in Longmont, which has roughly the same population as the city of Boulder, Longmont doesn't have the same level of problems that the city of Boulder has experienced. And I think part of the reason it's gotten better, I think there are two main reasons.

[01:00:24] One is that the police department in Boulder, the city of Boulder, is now up to or close to full staffing. That allows them to be more present. That leads to crime prevention. And I think having policing done at a community level is really important. So I think that's part of it. I think the other part is having consistent direction and support from city council, which has improved, I think in large part due to the work of Chief Redfern, but also the community and community leaders such as yourself being outspoken about how this should be more

[01:00:54] of a priority. And I think the support from my perspective for law enforcement has gotten better in the city of Boulder over the last couple of years. And I think we're seeing the results of having better, more staff, better resources and more support from city council. Yeah, I was added to this email chain about two months ago. There must have been, you know, I don't know, at least 100 people on this email chain, including the chief, including the city manager, including the mayor.

[01:01:23] And it was one of the local prominent local business owners just bringing forward that the local businesses are being hurt by, you know, the lack of consistent enforcement of people, you know, camping along Pearl Street. And he was showing examples, pictures being taken, as well as kind of some of the upkeep.

[01:01:52] And, you know, I did jump into the chain, although I didn't, I just narrowed it down to a handful of people, including the chief and including the mayor, including the city manager, and just said, you know, I don't know, I'm not a local business owner. So, but I do hear a lot of, I think you could look at this and say, this is real emotion. I mean, they're not just making this up. They're feeling like they're not getting the support that they should be getting.

[01:02:22] And I really would encourage you guys to kind of go out and visit and reach out and, you know, and, you know, try to get behind, you know, whatever is causing this emotion. And the police chief quickly responded. In fact, he responded to the whole group, I think, even before I sent that and explained what they were doing and, you know, how they're trying to deal with it and express commitment. But when I sent my note out, I never heard back from the city manager or the mayor. I'm like, okay, that's a little surprising.

[01:02:50] I would think you would, they'd probably get inundated by emails, but I would think you would differentiate this one from any others. And I wasn't complaining or critiquing. I was, you know, asking them to lean in and, you know, and instead of trying to defend, you know, themselves and the city, you know, go out there and say, okay, you know, help me, help me understand this better. And let's talk about what we can do. And I don't think they did that. And it was a little disappointing. Right.

[01:03:17] And you're right to be disappointed. And that's why when I took office in 2018, I made a commitment along with my staff to answering every email we get from the community. I will meet with anybody who requests to meet with me, which at times has been interesting, by the way. But I've met with every single person. Please share a story or two. Oh, there's a ton of stories. But I think it's part of being a public servant. I take that term very literally. I should be accessible to the community that I serve.

[01:03:46] So whether it's email, phone call, meeting in person, I've never said no. And I never will. And if you go on my AG Facebook page tonight, you'll see that I try to respond to as many comments as I can. Time is limited. But I actually engage. I don't know another elected official who does that. But it's exactly what we should be doing. Engaging people who have legitimate, valid questions or concerns and answering those questions and concerns very directly. And if there's action we could take, then taking that action, just like you described

[01:04:15] with that email that Chief Redfern. Yeah, absolutely. So there's been a lot of news recently about fraud. And I don't want to get too politically engaged here.

[01:04:36] But it does seem like there is a reason to be concerned that a lot of taxpayer dollars are getting redirected into, as I said earlier, NGOs that are really for the benefit of those setting up NGOs that quite often appear to be not legitimate.

[01:05:00] And quite often large sums of money are being directed toward small groups of individuals. What do you know about that? Is that something that's hitting your radar or hitting our Attorney General's radar here in Colorado? Is it causing us as a state to say, you know what, we don't know to what extent it's happening in Colorado or not, but why don't we roll up our sleeves and figure out what's going on here? And is that a problem here?

[01:05:30] And so what do we need to do to fix it? Or are people taking more of a wait and see mode from kind of the District Attorney and Attorney General perspective? Well, it's a priority for me. And as the next Attorney General, it's going to be a top priority. The AG's office has civil and criminal enforcement power in this area because the AG's office has Consumer Protection Authority. So it's both civil and criminal options for the Attorney General anytime there's a scam or fraud committed.

[01:05:59] And if I asked, so I would break this into different categories, but if I asked you the last time you got a scam email or phone call, you laugh because it was recent. We get far too many of them. We need to get the phone companies and the email providers to the table to use the technology they have to limit how many of those are hitting our inbox and how many of those are actually...

[01:06:18] Have you seen any activity in Colorado where our elected officials in reaction to some of the things that have come out in recent two or three months saying, hey, we need to do some investigative work of our own to see if we've got similar problems going on,

[01:06:40] if we have, you know, having government money, federal government money being given to the state that's being redirected to NGOs for enrichment of, you know, individuals? I mean, are they saying let's, you know, hopefully we don't have that. Let's find out on our own what's going on.

[01:07:07] That's a key role that the Attorney General can and should play. I agree. I think it's particularly important. A year and a half ago, I was very troubled to read about an issue involving money that was being provided to drug treatment providers who there were barely any qualifications or requirements for. And I think to your point, on one hand, we don't want to be over-regulated or overly bureaucratic.

[01:07:32] But on the other hand, when it comes to giving out taxpayer money for purposes, we need to make sure there are controls in place and requirements being met before they get taxpayer money. So we've seen examples of that failing. For Attorney General Phil Weiser, he has been very focused on consumer protection over the years. I've worked with him on consumer protection actions as district attorney. Yeah, but that's different. I know that protection is different than what we're describing here.

[01:07:57] I mean, what seems to be out there, and again, I think it's important to find out the facts before, you know, before accusations are levied. But there's been enough reasons to believe, at least in other states, that there is significant. And I would say a new type of fraud, stuff I haven't heard about in the past, that has kind of popped up in the last handful of years.

[01:08:26] And I would think, you know, a state like Colorado, you know, should be taking that seriously. Yes. Either be able to say, yeah, we've thoroughly investigated, and we are finding absolutely no reason to believe it's happening here in Colorado. Or, hey, you know, we have found some occurrences, and we're doing something about it, as opposed to, you know, just not reacting.

[01:08:51] And I don't know whether we're investigating or not, but it sounds like you're not aware of anything. You have nothing set your radar. Not of the nature you just described. I will say, I know in the past, the AG's office has looked at a couple different issues along those lines. But I think, to your point, and again, I don't know enough about, you're referring to Minnesota. And you hear stuff in Maine as well. Right. I don't know enough about the details to know what's true there. I know that you're not saying that. But it's concerning.

[01:09:21] I know enough to feel like. It's concerning enough to me that it should be a priority for us that we're now proactive, and proactive might not be the right word. But we should look at this stuff before it explodes on us. We should look at it and be able to tell the people of Colorado. We've actually looked at it. We've looked at the books. We've looked at who we're providing taxpayer money to for services, and they're meeting all the regulations. So I'd like to see more of that happen. I'm committed to making that happen. Good. Thank you.

[01:09:48] I don't know why something like that should be a politically charged issue, but it seems to be a politically charged issue as opposed to, hey, massive fraud is a crime that hurts everyone regardless of what party you're part of. Then, you know, we're not going to look the other way. No, you can't. We're not going to tolerate it. Right.

[01:10:09] And boy, if there is truth that some of that is being used to be redirected into campaigns, you know, that would really be, you know, to the extent there's truth in that, that's really troubling. Well, I will say, having served at the Manhattan DA's office, where just given the location of the Manhattan DA's office, that that office has jurisdiction over a lot of the financial institutions and also different service providers that are out there. And I've seen firsthand how important it is to have an office that's going to be aggressive in combating fraud and getting after it.

[01:10:37] In fact, as a sign of my commitment to that work, I married the head of the Identity, Theft, and Cybercrime Unit in the Manhattan DA's office. My wife, Antonia, was the head of that unit. But in all seriousness, it's about making sure that it's a priority and that you have that kind of unit that's going to get after it, including when it's fraud with government funds, especially. In some ways, that's the kind of fraud that we should care about the most because that's the taxpayer money that's been entrusted to government to do good work for the people. So making sure that we don't have those kinds of problems in Colorado has to be and will be a top priority for me.

[01:11:11] How do we bring people closer together? How do we start to chip away and make progress against this political divisiveness that we all feel today? What could people do to turn the corner on how politically charged everything seems to be in our current environment? It's the million-dollar question right now. To me, there's a couple things that come to mind.

[01:11:38] Mine first, it's about community engagement, people getting outside of our computers and our bubbles. I mean, our social media is programmed with the algorithms to push things to us that it determines we're interested in. So I look up trail running shoes because I'm a big trail runner, as you may recall. And I look up trail running shoes on Google. And next thing you know, social media is pushing a whole bunch of trail running stuff to me. Now, I love trail running, so I don't mind getting it.

[01:12:02] But if it's a certain political viewpoint or a slanted story, then people start to believe that that's the truth and that's the only truth that they have. And it's become harder and harder for people to find just facts and just facts that are going to be reported on honestly and acted on with integrity. And I think that's really important. I was talking to two of our district attorney investigators. We have 17 DA investigators in my office, so the equivalent of detectives, two of them this morning.

[01:12:31] And they were incredibly frustrated with all the news from some of the issues going on around our country right now and how difficult it's been just to figure out what's actually happening. Like, what's the true story? What are the facts? And where do you look for those? And I think given how algorithms work with social media, it's become more and more necessary for us to do what my dad did when I was a kid. Growing up in New York, I remember on the weekends, he would have the Daily News, New York Times, and Newsday in front of him. And I remember asking him at one point, like, why do you read three papers?

[01:13:01] He's like, three different sets of news. And he was right. And I think about him, may he rest in peace. I think about him often when I think about what am I looking at and is it giving me the true and full picture? And as a prosecutor, it's been part of my hardwiring for nearly 30 years. But I think it's about community engagement and getting out there. I just had a meeting at Rocky Mountain Equality with faith leaders and the sheriff, as well as Marty Moore, who's the amazing executive director of Rocky Mountain Equality. And just being in the room talking about what are you actually seeing on the ground?

[01:13:31] Like, we're being bombarded with this news right now. And a lot of it's concerning. But what are we actually seeing on the ground? What's happening? And what can we do as community partners? I also think it's about electing people who are going to be honest with the communities we serve. And just giving it to people straight and being willing to communicate. It's why when I took office, I made a promise that I would never say no comment to the media. I've never once said no comment in eight years. Because there's always something I can share.

[01:13:57] And I think as a public servant, you have to be willing to share information. I think part of it, too, is recognizing that the news source we're looking at should prompt us to look deeper and not just be the final say of what's going on in a community. Because I think sometimes that then guides our way of thinking too much. And I think stories tend to be more complex than what they appear at first blush. Absolutely.

[01:14:21] I have a habit of pretty much every day I'll scroll through the New York Times and see their headlines and how they characterize articles. Do the same with the Wall Street Journal. I mean to do that with Wall Street Post. I pay for a subscription there, but don't do it. And then, you know, true confessions, I watch Fox News. But to see kind of the contrast is pretty amazing. Right.

[01:14:44] I'd like to start with people and say one thing I know for certain, and that is pretty close to 50% of Americans voted the same way you voted. And pretty close to 50% voted the opposite way you voted. Right. Which to me says, you know, reasonable people can disagree.

[01:15:06] And, you know, spend time not entrenched in talking to people who will just further validate what your side believes. Spend more time with people on the other side. And, you know, hope they listen to you, but definitely listen to them and you don't have to agree with them.

[01:15:24] But hear why it is they have a different point of view and start with the mindset that says, I know there's a lot of people that have come to a conclusion that is different than mine. And I don't think they're all rad people just because, you know, I'm right and they're left or they're left and I'm right.

[01:15:42] You know, try to take advantage of that and understand where they're coming from and why and, you know, and hopefully learn that, you know, unfortunately things tend to be more complex and there tends to be more nuance. That doesn't really translate well into a 24-hour news cycle, but that is the world we live in. And, you know, and try to, you know, try to put, you know, humans first in your priority.

[01:16:09] I like to say that, you know, I'm first and foremost for humans. I am for Colorado. And those things matter more to me than whether someone's a R or a D. But to do that means you've got to, and I also believe in the rule of law. I believe that we should have, you know, borders. I believe we should have law enforcement. But I think we need to be compassionate at the same time. And, you know, all those can be true.

[01:16:35] And I think if we just keep coming back to that, a lot of times people are trying to do the right thing and they screw up. And, you know, I know if I was living and grew up in a different country that was far poorer than the U.S., I'd be trying to find my way to get to the U.S. too. And if the only way I could get here is, you know, illegally and I thought I could get here and get away with it, I would do it.

[01:17:02] You know, I suspect I would be one of those people. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a way of adjudicating that, that, you know, we are welcoming to people all across the world while still, you know, making a priority that we need to have a sane society. We need to be, we need to be safe. We need to be secure. We need to be, you know, fair. We need to be all those things.

[01:17:31] And, you know, and do that. We have to be talking to one another and hearing each other. Right. And thinking pragmatically about some complex situations that we're in. And, boy, it's so frustrating to see how divisive people are right now and how, how, you know, people use dishonesty to make their argument. And I just, you know, I see that and I'm like, they have to know what they're saying isn't completely honest.

[01:17:57] But then I say, well, maybe they do believe it's fully honest, you know, that they just, you know, maybe I don't understand what's really going on. But it's like, it's very confusing. Right. Well, I certainly agree that the divisiveness we're experiencing right now in our country is the greatest test to our democracy in my lifetime. Yeah. We are more divided as a country than I've ever seen us. And I think it's a threat to the future of our country.

[01:18:22] And it's something that I'm really committed to working through in my own world here and in however I can. Because I think it's tearing us apart. And there are people on both sides who prey upon that. Yes. And seek to profit from it. Yes. And seek to gain power from it. Yes. And they figured out how to manipulate that divisiveness. And that's just making it worse.

[01:18:44] And to me, it's about doing exactly what you just talked about, trying to connect with others and recognize that we shouldn't be controlled by the extremes on either the far left or the far right who have loud voices and are commandeering some of the rhetoric and elected officials then buy into that and repeat it. And I think we need to recognize that most Americans agree on far more things. Like if you ask people where they're at on immigration, I think a lot of people agree with one another.

[01:19:12] And yet we're watching this rock fight between the two parties, both of whom, quite frankly, have failed on immigration for years from my perspective. They're both sides share the blame for creating just a horrendous situation. 100%. So if you go on my Facebook page and you'll see if I post something about ICE or immigration, someone inevitably will say in the comments, it's the Democrats' fault. And I respond every time. The Biden administration failed on immigration. But that doesn't mean the pendulum should be swinging as far as it is the other way.

[01:19:42] And we need a complete overhaul of immigration in the United States. But we need to recognize both parties have failed when it comes to immigration and other issues. And we need people who are going to actually lead through some of these complex problems and build a better future for the future of this country. Yeah. Like what you said there, we need people to merge as leaders. I'm supporting Senator Bennett in the race for governor over the attorney general, even though I know them both and like them both. Yes.

[01:20:08] And it's coming down to one reason, which hopefully proves to be true. And that is, I think, Phil Weiser still has ambitions in Washington. And I think Senator Bennett is done with Washington. And I think if you have ambitions in Washington, whether you're Republican or Democrat, you have to be hyper-aligned with your party.

[01:20:30] So if Phil Weiser becomes the governor, he's going to be aspiring to be a senator someday or in a Democrat administration. And therefore, he's going to feel compelled to continue to behave in a hyper-partisan way. I think that's unhealthy. And I'm hopeful that Senator Bennett, as he leaves Washington and comes back to Colorado as governor,

[01:20:53] that he's able to say, you know what, I'm less beholden to the extreme of my party and I'm still going to be a Democrat. But, you know, I'm going to start really thinking about things through a lens of Colorado first and what's right and appropriate for all of us, not how do I stay visibly and firmly and dramatically aligned with my party in the future.

[01:21:18] My guess is there's huge pressure put on, you know, particularly Washington politicians or those who have ambitions for Washington to be so aligned with their party, whether Republican or Democrat. And that's part of what the problem is. So I think, I know you're not asking me, but I'll just say I think highly of both Michael Bennett and Phil Weiser. I think they're good public servants. Phil has a long list of things that he's accomplished for the state of Colorado.

[01:21:44] So I recognize that when you talk about Washington and the pull of the political parties, you're right. That's why I'm grateful that I've been a prosecutor my entire career, because I've always been hardwired to focus on what's the right thing to do. So, for example, I prosecuted a member of the Democratic Party a couple years ago, an elected official who committed election fraud. And when the case first came to my attention as an investigation that we launched, one of the district attorneys from another jurisdiction asked me if I wanted to get a special prosecutor.

[01:22:13] In other words, bring in a Republican DA to handle the case. I said, why would I do that? I don't have any actual conflict. And it's my role as district attorney to prosecute crimes that happen in our jurisdiction, regardless of political affiliation. So I prosecuted that case. And I'll just share with you, Dan, that she was convicted, gave up her office. She pled to the top charge. And that was the right outcome. Two months later, I'm on a Zoom call with the Democratic Party. And they honored her service.

[01:22:42] And I was sitting there saying, this is what's wrong with the party. And I think that's true for both parties. That we can't even recognize that she's just been convicted of a felony involving election fraud. And instead, we're honoring her service in this meeting on Zoom. And to me, it's about recognizing that we can't just continue to fall into the party camps. Because what doing so is dividing America and harming our communities. And we need to change our priorities on that.

[01:23:12] There's a case, and I didn't know much about this, but I chat-GPT'd it about two weeks ago because it was in the news again, about someone who was convicted of voter interference and got a nine-year sentence or some really long sentence. And supposedly Trump's trying to pressure the governor to... Yes, Tina Peters. What's the story of that case?

[01:23:39] I know 10 minutes of chat-GPT kind of inquiries about it. Right. But what's going on there? So I think in a lot of ways, that case reflects everything we've been talking about here, actually. Everything that you and I have discussed up to this point is captured in this one case. So Tina Peters was the county clerk. She engaged in criminal conduct. And when that first came to light, the district attorney, who's a Republican, Dan Rubenstein, he's a person of great integrity.

[01:24:09] The fact that she was a member of his own party did not impact any decision that he made. He launched an investigation. Once he determined that there was likely criminal conduct that had been committed, he recognized that his office did not have the resources or staff to prosecute it alone. And he reached out to the attorney general, Democrat Phil Weiser. And it's a testament to Dan that he reached out to the Democratic AG. And it's a testament to Phil that he took the call from the Republican DA and then agreed to assist. And Phil sent three of his best people.

[01:24:39] And I say that having supervised them when I was the head of the criminal section there. And they joined forces with Dan Rubenstein's office. And together, those two offices investigated the case, presented it to the grand jury. Keep in mind, Mesa County is largely Republican. So I assume it's a largely Republican grand jury. They indicted her. She was charged as a result. And then the case went to trial. Mesa County jury, again, largely Republican jurisdiction, found her guilty.

[01:25:07] And ultimately, at sentencing, she told the judge that she had no remorse and she would do the exact same thing again. And that's part of the reason the judge shared from the bench at the time that he was handing down a lengthy prison sentence. Since then, President Trump announced first that he was going to take harsh measures, was his quote, against Colorado if she was not released immediately. Now, one can have whatever view they want of Tina Peter's case. Well, give us the other view of the case.

[01:25:36] Because I think there's, you know, she was guilty. I think that was pretty clear. Yes. She got a very harsh sentence, is what I understand, like nine years, whereas you're seeing people do serious crime and they're, you know, they're get far lower sentences. So what's the counter view of that, that she didn't get fair treatment?

[01:26:05] You know, like, not saying you should advocate for that, but I know there is, there's a reason why people think she was unfairly treated. What, what's the reason for that? So what I hear from people is that there was evidence that she wanted to introduce that was not admitted at trial. But she had attorneys who were pretty active and aggressive on her part. Aggressive, I mean, in the way attorneys are in court and trying to push different arguments and present different evidence.

[01:26:32] And no one has alleged that there was any misconduct on the part of the prosecutors in that case. No one's alleged any misconduct by law enforcement. No one's alleged any misconduct by the jurors. So people can have a different view of the case and of the sentence. But I think as a starting point, I would look to the fact that no one's saying here that it was an unethical prosecution or anything in violation of the law. And Dan Rubenstein, the district attorney, who's endorsed my campaign for attorney general, and I think the world of him, he was getting death threats.

[01:27:00] He had SWAT taking him to and from the courthouse. I mean, he was going through hell to do the right thing and to do his job. I recognize that the sentence being nine years is a lengthy sentence. Certainly that's valid. I think part of what the judge considered, and this is based on his public statements when he imposed the sentence, is under the statute in Colorado, judges are required to consider remorse and acceptance of responsibility. And from her, it was zero based on what she said in court.

[01:27:30] She probably could have helped herself a lot if she admitted that what she did as an elected official was wrong and criminal and she had been found guilty based on the evidence. She was trying to save the data, as I understand it, and allowed someone who wasn't permitted to have access to the data so that it could be saved because, you know, if she didn't do that, the data was going to be destroyed, which she felt was wrong.

[01:27:56] And, again, she committed a crime by doing that, but she felt like she was protecting kind of data that shouldn't be being destroyed. And is that the gist of it? That's what the jury was told and disregarded in finding her guilty. Yes. But Donald Trump then threatens harsh measures against Colorado if she's not released immediately. And this has nothing to do with politics. It's about justice and the rule of law.

[01:28:24] The idea that a president of the United States is threatening a state with retaliation if someone who he has some alliance with is not released immediately is not something I would ever think I'd be reading about in the United States of America. I felt like I was reading something I might have read when I was a kid about a third world country. Colorado refused. Trump does do some things that are, you know, very inappropriate. Yes. No question about it. Yes. And then he retaliated against Colorado.

[01:28:51] He cut off funding, including a bill that Representative Boebert had been a champion for, which would have brought clean water to families and people living in rural Colorado. It had strong bipartisan support. And when's the last time we heard strong bipartisan support in the U.S. Congress? This bill had it to bring clean water to rural Colorado, to people who really need it. And he vetoed that bill.

[01:29:14] And Representative Boebert after said it was either because of her pressure on him to release the Epstein files, and others said it was because Tina Peters has not been released. And whether it's one or the other or both, the idea that Colorado is being retaliated against for Tina Peters not being released to me is outrageous. And the governor has indicated that he might commute her sentence. And if he bends the knee and caves to the pressure and does it for those reasons, to me, it's an absolute.

[01:29:42] Do you think if he does commute the sentence, would it be for those reasons or for other reasons? Like, I'm sure he's not saying I'm doing this to bow the knee. Why would the governor say he's considering that? The governor has said that he believes it might be a harsh sentence. And to me, though, it would be an absolute miscarriage of justice. And what I would say about if the governor says it's too harsh a sentence, what I would say is this. The only reason people are focusing on the case is because of who she is.

[01:30:08] If people such as yourself think it's a harsh sentence, then we should be looking at every single sentence that was handed down in that type of case from last year. And instead, we're only talking about one particular case because of who she is and who she knows. And I think Americans are sick and tired of the two-tiered justice system where it's about who you know and who you're connected to and how much money you have impacting the outcome of a case, whether it's Jeffrey Epstein or Tina Peters or anyone on the political spectrum, you name it. That's not how justice is supposed to work.

[01:30:38] So what do you agree? So Jeffrey Epstein, what do you think really is going on there? That is one of the most bizarre. Yes, bizarre is the right word. What do you think really was the big story behind how this played out over lots and lots of years?

[01:30:56] Well, I think the lack of transparency around that has led to a tremendous amount of controversy and certainly questions that people have about what's in those files and who, whether it's the Clintons or Trump or whomever, who's named in those files and what they reflect. To me, what it really shows is that for too long, the victims of Epstein went without justice because otherwise there wouldn't be so many files for people to go through.

[01:31:21] And I think there were opportunities, not I think, there were opportunities for law enforcement and prosecutors to get involved earlier. And there were failures along the way with Epstein. And again, that's the two-tier justice system that we should never accept in the United States. And as a result now, people have, I think, valid questions. And to maintain and restore the confidence of the American people, those files should be released. And people should be able to see who he was connected to and what, if any, criminal conduct was covered up and when.

[01:31:51] Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. But I definitely understand the sense of you about protecting the victims. Yes. Who might not want their names out there. But how hard could that be to redact? If that's all you're trying to redact, it seems like that's being used as a crutch. So I'm going to give you another chance to make your case. But before I do, I'm going to ask you one other kind of Colorado case. And hopefully you'll give us something fun as the answer. It's been a long time.

[01:32:21] John Bonnet Ramsey. What happened there? It remains an incredibly tragic, unsolved murder of a six-year-old girl. And having handled cold case homicide prosecutions in my career and having served on the cold case review team for Colorado, I recognize how important it is for justice and for the loved ones and for the community to solve cold cases. We just solved another one here in Boulder County. They are a priority for me.

[01:32:49] Two years ago, I lived in Durango for the month of July because they asked me to come help try a case involving a 12-year-old boy, cold case homicide. And I went down to Durango and lived down there for the month of July and tried that case. And ultimately, the defendant was found guilty. And he's now in state prison for killing that 12-year-old boy, Dylan. So I'm passionate about that work. It remains an open, active case. What I will say is that federal, state, and local partners continue to work on it.

[01:33:17] We just had a meeting on it just last week. So it still remains a very active case. We continue to look at everything that comes in and every piece of evidence that we can using the most advanced technology possible. And I appreciate, at a time where you see divisiveness between federal and state governments, I appreciate the cooperation between federal, state, and local partners on the Pearl Street firebombing, King Soopers, but also JonBenet Ramsey and other cases we have in our jurisdiction because of the strong working relationships that we've worked hard to develop in this jurisdiction.

[01:33:47] And I'm grateful for being able to do that. On Ramsey, I think, just speaking very candidly, if it happened today, there would be a completely different response and approach by the offices and agencies and individuals involved. And I can't go back in time and repair all that damage. I could just work with what we have now and do our very best to solve it while recognizing a lot of good people before me have tried to solve it.

[01:34:15] So when I took office in 2018, I never thought for a moment, well, I'm here and I'm going to solve it. I'm humble enough to know that other good people have tried. So we'll continue to work it. We'll continue to work it hard and make sure that we're giving our very best in terms of the technology and reexamining any evidence that we have available to us. And that's going to continue. I do want to apologize. I was kind of lair the way I asked that question. That was not responsible for me. That was a real life that got taken. No, no, no. You are. Real lives that got affected.

[01:34:42] It is like a long-standing kind of story in Boulder and a mystery that has had a lot of twists and turns over the years. But at the end of the day, there was precious life that was taken. And a lot of people's lives got impacted. And certainly a lot of them were innocent who got impacted because there was one person who was guilty. Not a lot of people. And a lot of people got torn up in that. So that was inappropriate to me. No, I don't view it as inappropriate, Dan.

[01:35:12] By the way I asked the question was. I'll tell you, when I first became district attorney in 2018, Stan Garnett, my predecessor, he and I have always had a great relationship. And Stan told me, you're going to be asked about the Ramsey case at least once a week. And I thought he was exaggerating. Instead, he was absolutely right. And it just captures how tragic that case is, but how it's captured the fascination. I don't want to just say of Americans because we get inquiries from all around the world. In fact, I was just very honored.

[01:35:41] The Irish Independent, which is a popular newspaper in Ireland, did a profile on my family because my grandparents, as I mentioned, came over from Ireland. They did a profile on my family and my career and my campaign for attorney general of Colorado. And in the middle of the interview, the reporter asked me, what about JonBenet Ramsey? And so even in Ireland and other parts of the world. I was just at Monarch High School because I do a lot of community outreach, as you know. Speaking with high school students, and I said to them, you can ask me any question. What questions do you have?

[01:36:10] One of the high school students said, what happened to JonBenet Ramsey? So I think for people of all ages, it's a case that continues to trouble people and they desperately want answers. And I deeply wish that those answers had been provided years ago. And to the extent I have any control over it, we'll remain fully committed to it and hopefully be able to produce those answers. Okay. So let's go back to what we started us with. And let's have you make your case because I want to see you somehow win this election.

[01:36:36] I think you are the type of person and taking the type of approach that we need a lot more of. So I'm a strong advocate. Thank you, Dan. But I want to give you another chance to those listeners who have come all the way through this. Why should we all vote for you? The Attorney General plays an especially critical role in the lives of everyday Coloradans. So environmental protection, crime and public safety, consumer protection, the list goes on.

[01:37:03] Also having the responsibility of deciding when and how to take the federal government to court. And always being guided by what's right in each one of those areas, including when to sue the federal government. So it should only be when the rule of law is being violated and Colorado is actually being harmed. That office is the largest law office in the state of Colorado. And I have experience as a lawyer. I've tried every kind of case in the course of my career. And I still do, as you highlighted earlier. And I've been trusted at times of crisis in Colorado to respond.

[01:37:32] And I've always come out on the other side being able to do justice for the victim and the community. And to me, it's the equivalent of when we talk about the issues we face in our country right now, it's the equivalent of if you go to a DIA tomorrow night and the storm is raging. And you're wondering if your flight's going to be canceled and you're walking down to the terminal and you see two pilots and two planes. And you go up to the first one and the pilot says, I've been flying for nearly 30 years. Going through this storm is what I do. Trust me, we're going to come out on the other side okay.

[01:38:02] And then you go to the second pilot and the second pilot says, I've gone to flight school, but I've never actually flown. Second pilot to be clear is Jenna, right? I've never actually flown, says the second pilot. You're going to go on the first plane. That's the choice we have right now, just putting it in frank terms. And to me, the challenge we face... But the second pilot said, but I'm also far more aligned with the extremity of my party. And I'll always side with them.

[01:38:28] So even though I don't know how to fly the plane, you should fly with me anyways because of my political affiliation. That's kind of how I would add to your story. Well, I appreciate your support. I will say that. To me, it's such a critical time for our country. I'm not term-limited as district attorney. And I love the work we're doing in the DA's office. But the moment calls for each one of us to do what we can.

[01:38:53] And when I spoke to those high school students recently, one of them asked me a question that gave me pause, which is, where do you see our country in 10 years? It's a good question because we're so consumed with the challenges of the moment. But thinking about those kids and their future. So to me, it means fighting for the rule of law and justice and doing it with integrity, but also looking to how do we build a better future for Colorado? How do we ensure that the Colorado of tomorrow is better than the one for today? And there are practical steps we can take to do exactly that. And I'm committed to doing it as the next attorney general.

[01:39:23] Thank you. I appreciate you doing this. And I hope this helps get who you are and your message across to lots of people. Dan, this is a great discussion. Thank you so much for everything you do. And thanks for having me on today. It's been a real honor. All right. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Bear Roars. Check out Stretch, the new song from Dan Caruso, with music by Jason Mendelsohn, available now on all streaming services. If you enjoyed the episode, please like and subscribe on your listening platform.

[01:39:52] This podcast was produced by Loud Bear Productions and edited by Kendall Weinberg with support from Gibson Seagert.