Scott Trench: Unlocking Success with a CEO Toolkit

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello and welcome to My Biggest Lesson, the show that brings you the key learnings from

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: the most influential founders, executives, and investors in the Colorado Tech community.

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Adam Burroughs, and I'm Chris Erickson.

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Together we are the co-founders of Range Ventures, an early stage venture firm based in Denver.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You can find out more about what we're up to at range.vc.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Our guest this week is Scott Trench.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Scott is the CEO of BiggerPockets, where he has spent the last 10 years building a community

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and educational platform for over 3 million real estate investors.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: He also hosts the BiggerPockets Money podcast, which is one of the top personal finance

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: podcasts.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Top it all off, the company recently announced a majority investment by the Churnin Group.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Scott, thanks for joining us on My Biggest Lesson today.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me, Chris.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited to be here.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, cool, Scott.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Before we jump into the Biggest Lesson and talk a little bit about Colorado Tech, I'd

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: love for our listeners to learn a little more about you and your background if you could

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: share how you started BiggerPockets and just sort of what you're up to today with it.

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, yeah.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I started my career in finance at a Fortune 500 company.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I realized very quickly I did not want to spend my next 30 years in the corporate

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_02]: world.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So I decided I wanted to pursue the financial independence, retire early movement, the

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_02]: frugality.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I was a big follower of Mr. Money Mustache and I was also wanted to be a real estate investor.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So I followed a website called BiggerPockets, listened to the podcast, all those types of

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: things.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Through networking in the real estate world, I met the founder of BiggerPockets, Josh

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Dorkin, at a co-working space.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And one thing led to another and I found myself the then third full-time employee

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: at BiggerPockets as the director of operations, which meant everything from fetching coffee

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to revenue and that sort of thing.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's been a 10 year ride there.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I joined in July 2014.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's been a wild journey to see it grow from 100,000 members at the time to 3 million

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_02]: today.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And Scott, you left a huge company because you said Fortune 500, thousands of employees.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: How did you...

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Was there any hesitation in making the jump to a place that only had two other

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: employees and then you at the time?

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Or was it an easy decision for you to make?

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: No, for me it was a very obvious decision because I really wanted to achieve financial

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: freedom early in life.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And so something with entrepreneurial opportunity, something with the ability to go solve problems

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_02]: at the next level outside of the rigidity of a corporate structure and nothing...

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Not that there was anything wrong with the way that Dish Network or the company

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I was working at was doing anything.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: There was that opportunity to massively accelerate in a couple of years, was just not

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_02]: going to be there.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So if I had not joined Bigger Pockets, I actually would have become a real estate agent.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Join another firm there in the same croworking space actually as Bigger Pockets.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was ready to move and try to play my hand at something where I could kind of

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: have a little bit more direct control over my destiny.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe give our listeners a little context to Bigger Pockets today.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I follow real estate and very familiar with it.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really impressive what you guys have built, but maybe just share with our

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: listeners the scope and everything that you guys do there.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So Bigger Pockets serves real estate investors.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: The primary real estate investor in the United States of America is what we call

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_02]: a mom-and-pop investor.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: This is somebody with 10 or fewer rental properties.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Buy them every year to, you know, I think the 60% of single family rentals

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: in this country are owned by people with just one or two properties outside of

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_02]: their primary residence.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So we provide a variety of solutions to investors of all types, often targeting

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: those folks and say, hey, if you want to get into real estate, you should probably

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_02]: spend a couple hundred hours learning about the ins and outs of this before

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: making what may be the biggest financial investment of your life outside

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: of your primary.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And so people will consume podcasts, YouTube videos, blog posts,

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_02]: they'll participate in our forums.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_02]: They'll be on Facebook groups.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_02]: They'll just totally immerse themselves in the world of real estate.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And after, you know, 250 hours, confidence begins to build and we're like,

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: okay, I just put all this time in.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It's probably time to go and actually make a play here.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's when a lot of those members then purchase our pro membership,

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: which comes with everything you need to buy a manager property from tools

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_02]: to analyze, like you pick markets, you can find deals, you can analyze

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_02]: those deals, you can estimate rents, you can, we have leases

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and landlord forums.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: We've got accounting software, property management software, the whole end

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and suite there.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we've got a marketplace for agents, lenders, property managers

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and tax professionals that are all real estate specialists.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Investors typically don't want to work with people outside of that.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So we kind of have that.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: We like to think of it as a one stop shop that we are approaching

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_02]: building here.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_02]: We have plenty more work left to do to finish that the journey to

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_02]: that vision.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's what we do.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And we have about three million members today.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Our podcast network has been downloaded or listened to 150

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: million times in aggregate.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: We sold 3 million books across 40 titles for various real estate

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: strategies.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So it really been a wild ride joining what was essentially

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_02]: a startup that wasn't VC backed or anything back in 2014 and seeing

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_02]: it grow to what it is today.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: That's amazing.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's incredible the number of landlords that you guys work with.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to shift a little bit to Colorado.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So you came out here about 10, 11 years ago for your first

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: job out of school.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: We love your perspective on how you've seen the Colorado tech

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_01]: ecosystem grow and change over the decade since you first came here.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think Colorado and Denver, I think that the big change

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: probably happened 10 years before I moved out.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And Colorado and Denver Boulder had already, I think, really

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: gotten their legs under them as a tech scene.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's only accelerated, I think in the last 10 years.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's just tons of talent in Denver and the tech scene.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_02]: There's thriving meetups that are going on.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I know some of the folks who host one of the particularly

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: fun meetups in the local area.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it's been great to see it continue to swell over

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: the last 10 years and some really truly remarkable technology

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: businesses headquartered and being built from Colorado.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's talk about some of those cool technology companies here.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Are there any that you're particularly excited about can be

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: big companies, can be two person companies?

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But are there any here in Colorado that our listeners should

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: keep on their radar or go check out?

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, one of my favorites is Nomad Lease, which is I think you

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: know them pretty well.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Very well.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they've got a great product where they basically it's

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_02]: like insurance basically for rentals.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So you can rest easy knowing that you'll get paid and they

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_02]: basically ensure rent for landlords.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's a big synergy with bigger pockets.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_02]: We're plugged into that.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's a lot of great success stories that come out

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_02]: of here.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Another one that I'll mention is TurboTenant.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_02]: We have a good relationship with Sarnin and now Shamus

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and they've built a wonderful company over there.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: That's exciting.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We agree there's a lot of great stuff in real estate and other

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: pockets of tech here going on that we continue to be really

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: excited about too.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, so Scott, let's transition to why we're here and talk

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_01]: about your biggest lesson.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You've been building a company for quite a while first.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it was one of the early employees.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Now is the CEO running it.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And I imagine that you've learned a bunch of lessons

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: over your career, but we'd love to hear what's the

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: biggest lesson you've learned?

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: How did you learn that lesson?

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And then as you reflect on how you operate today as a CEO

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and leader, how do you incorporate that lesson into

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: the everyday of what you do now?

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the biggest lesson is the concept of the CEO

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_02]: toolkit.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02]: There's always the creativity and the industry knowledge

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and the relationships that you build and all those types

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_02]: of things that come into play.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But typically I think most folks are pretty good at

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_02]: those if you're in the founder or CEO or COO seat.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But the toolkit of actually running a business, I think,

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_02]: has been a particularly powerful one for me.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And one specific area of that comes in with performance

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: management.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So what is a good CFO?

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And what is a good CFO for your business?

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: That is a really difficult question for anybody to

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_02]: answer.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I think what is a good COO for your business?

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: What in general and for your business?

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: What does that look like?

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you get super, super specific about that and

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_02]: translate that both into a job search and the recruitment

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: process, the onboarding process, and then continuous

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: year to year performance management to make sure

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: that that activity set from your leadership team

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: continues to come out at a really, really high level.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the CEO toolkit.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: It starts with strategy.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It follows with structure.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But then it's seen through with this performance

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: management playbook.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's been the biggest thing for me

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_02]: because when that is humming, everything else is

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_02]: easy about this job.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like happening a ship and you have the wind at your

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_02]: back and you let it run.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And when that's not going right, it's like you're at a

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_02]: major storm and you got to make every move yourself

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and really go to battle on a continuous basis.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So Scott, how did you learn that along the way?

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, you weren't a CEO before, right?

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Someone at the start when you joined this three

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: person company pride and sit you down and say, Hey,

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Scott, here's the most important thing you can do.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, did it come from having some

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_01]: wrong people in the seats for some missteps?

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what was the key moment or moments that

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: that got you to realize that that was the most

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_01]: important thing for you?

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So when we we recapitalized with we never had a

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: venture backed investment.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: We went straight to private equity and we

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: partnered with a great firm out of Omaha,

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Nebraska called McCarthy Capital and they

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_02]: brought in a chairman of the board named Mike

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Zawalski who became my mentor.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And I like to think like a great coach,

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody who's been there and done that.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: A great coach is someone who cares about you

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: personally and a great coach is somebody

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: who has positional power over you,

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and at least for me.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that was a major advantage to me

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02]: where a lot of my peers that were in the

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: founder or CEO seat at a lot of companies,

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_02]: there's not really positional board authority

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_02]: over them in many cases.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I was lucky to be there.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I was I was not the founder of the company.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I stuck my hand up and volunteered.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I had a coach.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I invested myself and I was humble about it.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I think relatively speaking, but certainly have

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: my my ego moments around that.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that really helped move things through.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And as the years went by and I saw how often

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_02]: when we disagreed, my mentor and boss was

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: correct on many issues.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that was really powerful and seeing

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_02]: the pain of a bad leader come in or someone

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_02]: that wasn't right for your organization more specifically.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if there's bad leaders,

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: but someone who didn't really fit the needs there.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And the fact that when a leader leaves,

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_02]: unfortunately, so often the whole division ends up

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: turning over in the next 12 to 18 months.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_02]: If it's on a from a negative context,

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, understanding the importance of getting that right.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know many CEOs who have been around

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: for 10 years at their companies without having

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: to go through a good number of those.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess I'm fortunate to have learned

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: some of those painful lessons early on and to have had

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: had the chance to really get to know good

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_02]: in the context of great leaders nowadays

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and having getting that right and really understanding

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_02]: the power of having the wind at your back

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: with a wonderful, wonderful leadership team.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And then how that just translates to their

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: direct reports all being excellent going downstream.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So is that answering question?

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it does.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it touches on another question, right?

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is, you know, as a first time CEO and leader,

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: how did you know what great looked like

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: when you were finding the CFO or the CEO?

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? Because that's something that we see

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_01]: often is that first time leaders, like, you know,

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: unless they have done it before they

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: or work somewhere, they don't know what great looks like.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe tips for recognizing great early

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and maybe you had some missteps with that

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: before you figured out what great was.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So how can first time CEOs and leaders

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: get great right at the start?

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the answer is you can't.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the powerful lesson

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: for CEOs and founders, I think, is to understand,

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: hey, if you've never hired a marketing leader before,

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: probably going to get wrong.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Doesn't mean you don't try it,

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: but you're probably going to get it wrong there.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: You're probably going to have to have some sort of change

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: going on whatever position you're hiring for.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a very good probability

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: you're not going to get it right.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And that acceptance is going to be very powerful.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: The next piece I think is when I don't know

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: what I'm doing with an executive position,

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I go fractional.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: A fractional executive can tell me

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_02]: at the highest level what needs to be done.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: They're often very cheap.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_02]: There are often a lot of folks who had a big exit,

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_02]: very successful, all those types of things

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that have exactly the skill set.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You could never afford them full time,

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: but they're bored and they want to do something

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: but they don't want to go in full time

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're happy to come in

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and kind of share what they've learned with you.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So I love fractional.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I've actually had a fractional HR leader

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_02]: at BiggerPockets for the last two and a half years.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It's been wonderful because she brings in 30 years

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: of incredible experience at variety of businesses

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and establishes frameworks that are really powerful

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_02]: that are then easy for us to execute on downstream.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's always a very powerful one.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I use a book that was very influential for me.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: It was Who? A Method for Hiring,

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_02]: which has a very detailed playbook

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_02]: for how to get talent out there.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I put together an artifact

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I call a scorecard,

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_02]: which is not a job description.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It is specific outputs and numbers I want to move

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_02]: in the next 90 to 365 days,

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_02]: the first year,

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: first quarter and first year of the person's employment.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And I write it such that,

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_02]: hey, where only 10% of the candidates in this field

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: should be able to achieve this output.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And the candidate I hire

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: should have a 90% chance of achieving that output.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a framework strictly from that book.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's been very powerful for me

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_02]: because it allows me to move quickly

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_02]: in the situations where I'm wrong

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and really understand where we're good.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the last piece I think is that

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_02]: another area where I've wondered is

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: every once in a while you get super excited

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_02]: about a new hire.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_02]: You're like, oh my gosh, person's gonna be great.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And in my experience, when I've been too ecstatic,

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I tend to not check in on things to the same level of depth.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_02]: They're not pushed back as much.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And that can also be disastrous.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So you wanna make sure that you're always

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: in a very narrow band

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: in terms of how you're dealing with

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_02]: the folks in your team.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And as I've done that,

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: we've got a much better success rate

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and really again developed,

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I think an incredible team here today.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean by in a narrow band?

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that in terms of like expectations

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_01]: or is that like keeping a tight leash

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: on people to start?

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Help me understand that.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's my interactions with folks, right?

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Not being like, oh my God, that's amazing.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And not being like, what the heck is this?

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: This is terrible, right?

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Maintaining a very even band

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and asking questions, being thoughtful, pushing.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, always pushing folks,

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_02]: but never operating outside

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: of a very professional narrow band of emotional range, right?

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's just a toolkit item

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_02]: for every part of the CEO job.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But it is particularly important

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: when dealing with director ports,

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: especially the new folks

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_02]: that come in and start wowing you around that

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02]: because that creates huge problems

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: when you're like, oh, four months later,

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: this actually wasn't happening here.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I've been given this person

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: like incredible feedback the whole time.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: How do I start changing that

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_02]: before a problem begins to develop around that?

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So again, this is the biggest piece

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_02]: of the CEO and founder toolkit,

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that I struggle with.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I imagine many of your founders and CEOs

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: also struggle with this.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's also very painful for investors

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: because they can see problems well before managers can

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: in a lot of cases because you're so close

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_02]: with the folks that you work with on a day-to-day basis.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it might be close

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and it might also just be pattern recognition

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: because we have the advantage

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_01]: of seeing 30 companies at once, right?

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Type of thing as opposed to just one.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: One other thing I want to touch on

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that you just said too

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: that I think is really interesting.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You talked about the narrow band.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the lessons I had to learn related to that

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_01]: is the energy that you put out

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: as the CEO gets amplified,

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I think through the organization, right?

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're really up here and really high,

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: like that gets amplified too much

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_01]: in the same way on the other side.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the context also dissipates too as well.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So, is there anything too in terms of

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: how do you keep yourself in that narrow band

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: because I think your point

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: on it being really important is critical.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So what have you learned to do

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: to help yourself stay there?

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, look, it really is just as simple as

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a band of acceptable behavior.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't bother drawing it or anything like that.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just I put my hands like this, right?

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, six, eight inches apart

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm like, am I too high above the band?

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Am I elated in being like inappropriately excited

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_02]: about this or am I being negative, anxious

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_02]: or whatever on the other side of that?

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And how do I stay inside that band?

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I need to move back into my band.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It's literally just that simple.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: There's no more to it.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I just, oh, I'm outside of my band right now.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Gotta go back into it.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's it.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Scott, this has been amazing.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: These are super practical tactical things

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I think our listeners can do to be better leaders

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and better CEOs.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Where can our listeners follow what you're up to

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01]: or what BiggerPockets is up to

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and stay in touch and up to date with you?

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, you can go to biggrapockets.com

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and check out the website there.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_02]: We got a whole suite of tools for anyone

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: that's interested in real estate investing

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to an degree.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we have five podcasts.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_02]: One is our BiggerPockets podcast

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_02]: that is going through some exciting changes today.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I host the BiggerPockets Money podcast

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: which is a personal finance related podcast

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_02]: where we talk about achieving financial independence.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So you can follow those two are great places.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Send me a message on BiggerPockets

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm happy to respond.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome, well, Scott,

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: thank you so much for having us today.