On Calling: Josh Reeves Speaks with Jackie Harris

[00:00:00] Josh Reeves with Jackie Harris. Good afternoon, Jackie. Happy Halloween!

[00:00:05] Yes, it is Halloween, isn't it?

[00:00:07] Are you dressing up today?

[00:00:09] I'm going to dress up as a mixed metaphor.

[00:00:13] I love that. We all look forward to figuring that out. That was fast, Jackie. And it's so great to spend a little time with you. One of the things I've really enjoyed doing on this podcast this year is just doing a little bit of a get-to-know-you with some of our amazing Mile High ministers.

[00:00:30] We get to experience you in all sorts of different ways. And kind of touching on this topic of calling, and all of our ministers are so brilliant. They could be doing so many different things in so many different places, and you have such an interesting history that I know.

[00:00:46] But I'm interested in hearing a little bit more, not just your call to ministry, but your call to the spirituality that feeds you, that calls you into practice, because that's one of the things I admire most about you is your spiritual practice.

[00:01:02] Interesting you ask that, because actually that part of myself, I've thought about this and it has stayed with me a long time. I was nine years old the first time I really paid attention to God.

[00:01:13] I was walking up the road. We had just moved to a brand new house, so I'd left my friends. I was in about the third grade.

[00:01:19] And I remember something must have happened, but I don't remember what happened, but I was walking up the road, and I started making up songs to God.

[00:01:27] And just out loud singing to God. And it always stayed with me that I had that relationship.

[00:01:35] And of course, many may not know I came out of the Christian tradition.

[00:01:39] And all through my life, we went to church, and I was very involved in many ways.

[00:01:45] I would say when we were in Pennsylvania, and I'm an East Coast girl, so that's the reason sometimes I can be kind of strong.

[00:01:54] Right out there, just outside of Washington, D.C., I was raised.

[00:01:58] But after I got married, we moved to Pennsylvania and got very involved in the church there.

[00:02:05] And at that point, I was attending the Lutheran Church, and I became the first female elder in that Lutheran Church.

[00:02:13] It had all been a very patriarchal system.

[00:02:16] And so that was when the call itself actually started.

[00:02:21] And my relationship, I'll be honest with Jesus, is very strong, because my feeling is what a great example he was for showing us how to live our lives, and that every one of us have that possibility.

[00:02:36] So that's where that started.

[00:02:38] And right now, for me, when I came to Mile High Church the first time and sat in the seat, you know, it's the story everyone tells.

[00:02:47] At the time, we were still in the Vote Auditorium, and I remember going in there for Dr. Rogers' 30th anniversary.

[00:02:55] Someone had invited me because she was in the choir, and I finally said, okay, fine.

[00:03:00] I went in there and sat down and heard the message.

[00:03:03] The music was fine, but it was the message.

[00:03:06] And I thought, wow.

[00:03:07] There were many spots in Christianity that I just put aside because it didn't quite resonate, but it never hurt me.

[00:03:15] And then all those spots were filled in.

[00:03:18] So I have loved being able to dive into our teaching because it allows me to look at Christianity and be able to appreciate those Christian mystics who absolutely—I look at them, and especially the women,

[00:03:38] because those women were dealing with huge issues, whether it was the plague or it was the Inquisition.

[00:03:48] And yet they held on to that faith in God, and they just moved forward.

[00:03:53] So they have been really instrumental.

[00:03:56] And of course, many of the Catholics like Henry Nowen and Richard Rohr have really impacted me, and I love to sit with them.

[00:04:08] So that was a long story to tell you about.

[00:04:11] I love that.

[00:04:12] Well, and I have questions going back because that was the Good Reader's Digest, and I want to dig in a little bit.

[00:04:19] But the first is I love how you said the first time I paid attention to God.

[00:04:26] Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it kind of conveys that perhaps God was paying attention to you.

[00:04:32] Absolutely.

[00:04:32] And I think that's what I'm so aware of now, and in so much that I do, that God is always paying attention to me.

[00:04:43] But at that point, I really started noticing and going, oh, there is something greater than I am at nine years old, whatever that mind is at nine years old.

[00:04:55] But it really had a huge impact on me.

[00:04:58] And I wonder for all people, but especially spiritually inclined folks, if they're in a consistent dialogue with God that they are not aware of.

[00:05:08] And so I kind of, you know, when you told that story, it's kind of like the song was always there, but all of a sudden you started putting some words to it as you were walking as that nine-year-old girl.

[00:05:22] Yes.

[00:05:23] Yes.

[00:05:23] And what those words were, I have no idea.

[00:05:25] If you were to ask me to tell you what that song was, I just know that it was something that I made up.

[00:05:30] Because music was very big in our lives.

[00:05:33] My mother made sure that at least my older sister and I took piano lessons, were involved in music.

[00:05:40] I was very involved with choirs and all of the churches that I was in.

[00:05:44] And so music was very important to me as a young child and continues to be.

[00:05:50] But what those words were, I don't know.

[00:05:52] I'd love to know what those words were now.

[00:05:55] Well, maybe it's time to write some new love songs to God.

[00:05:59] And, you know, speaking of, you know, breaking a bit of a glass ceiling, you know, in your faith journey and, you know, being a woman, becoming a spiritual leader in a somewhat, you know, whatever we want to call it, patriarchal or misogynistic society at times.

[00:06:13] Have you faced, you know, barriers both within the church and even within, you know, consciousness towards embodying what it means to be an incredible female spiritual leader in 2024?

[00:06:23] Well, I think that's an interesting question because I go back and I look at it and I don't remember it being a terrible transition to become an ecclesiastical leader in the church.

[00:06:36] Because the men who were there were extremely supportive of me and saw my light.

[00:06:42] And so they were there to support me.

[00:06:45] And I have to say, my family was a huge supporter of me without really being necessarily overly religious, shall we say.

[00:06:56] But my mother was a very strong woman.

[00:06:59] And so she did not let much get in the way of stopping her from moving forward.

[00:07:06] And I think that's part of what I observed.

[00:07:09] And so I didn't allow those things to stop me.

[00:07:12] And I am a child of the 60s.

[00:07:14] And so at that time, things were becoming more apparent for women to be able to step out and really speak their truth.

[00:07:24] So I think there were many fortunate things in my life that have helped me not feel in this day and time that there's a ceiling that I have to get above.

[00:07:34] Got it, got it.

[00:07:35] And, you know, so many people come into religious science, and it's changing now, religious science being our technical denomination.

[00:07:42] But we often say, jokingly but true, is that we're spiritual rebels and refugees.

[00:07:48] You know, that you wind up here either because you're in the spirit of being a nonconformist for Emerson and it's so open-ended,

[00:07:58] or there's something in the faith of our upbringing, although we hold the core to it,

[00:08:03] that we found overall judgmental or not inclusive or open enough to where we either have to step away from it,

[00:08:12] or it's going to kick us out if they found out what we really thought.

[00:08:16] But when I hear your story of Finding a Mile High Church, it sounds a little bit more to me like the natural evolution of your relationship with God.

[00:08:26] Yes, because I got the call to ministry when I was in the Lutheran Church for the first time.

[00:08:33] And at that time I was doing some teaching in the community college and life was good.

[00:08:38] And so I thought that I made the decision not to do it, and it became very clear once I came in to Mile High Church that I didn't make that decision,

[00:08:51] that it wasn't the right time.

[00:08:53] And that then the time when I got here and I went, wow, and started right into classes,

[00:09:00] and then I went right into practitioner training.

[00:09:03] But then I chose to be a practitioner for about five years before I started my journey as a minister,

[00:09:13] because I wanted to experience that.

[00:09:15] I wanted to experience what it was to be a practitioner,

[00:09:19] because of course as a minister in religious science you're a practitioner first.

[00:09:23] Mm-hmm.

[00:09:24] So it really, yeah, I think you are right that it was a natural evolution for me.

[00:09:32] What I love and even, you know, I have the privilege, my office is right next to yours,

[00:09:36] and so I get to know you in a unique way.

[00:09:39] Not only are you a great leader for Mile High Church,

[00:09:42] but what I love about you as a minister is your ongoing commitment to spiritual growth.

[00:09:49] You know, your relationship with God is very clear, and yet it's always evolving and deepening.

[00:09:55] And I love how you see people.

[00:09:58] You take a liking to someone or whatever that may be, and you're always supportive.

[00:10:02] And, you know, you speak to holding on to your Christian roots and your Christian mysticism,

[00:10:09] and I wonder if you see part of your ministry is, you know, helping to, in a greater way,

[00:10:14] reestablish that, both in Mile High and perhaps even in the movement.

[00:10:19] I, you know, here's my longer spiel, but there's a tension between embracing Christianity

[00:10:27] and rejecting it, not only at Mile High, but within our movement.

[00:10:32] And, you know, we say we're interfaith, and we want you to know why we're not like that church

[00:10:37] over there.

[00:10:38] And so we may uplift Buddha a little bit and perhaps be a little scared to talk about Jesus

[00:10:43] because someone had a bad experience at their church, and they're going to get upset.

[00:10:48] And, you know, Michelle and I always joke, you talk about Jesus, and the first person in

[00:10:51] line says, you talk about Jesus too much.

[00:10:53] And the next person in line says, why don't you talk more about Jesus?

[00:10:56] And so it's this tension.

[00:10:58] But I like how you seem to be not only respectful of all aspects of the faith, but seem to see

[00:11:06] that we may be missing some of what the great Christian mystics have to offer us on how to

[00:11:12] live a whole spiritual life.

[00:11:14] Absolutely.

[00:11:14] I just finished, I guess it was a webinar with James Finley, who I love that you quoted just

[00:11:21] recently, and it was on Teresa of Avila.

[00:11:24] And, oh my gosh, and it's all on her, the levels of the soul.

[00:11:32] You know, I think Carolyn Mace also has done some work on that.

[00:11:36] And I loved reading that and hearing that explanation from the 14th century of the fact that when

[00:11:44] we start with prayer, we're really starting in that very first level.

[00:11:48] And that that seventh level of the castle is where God is.

[00:11:53] And that as we move, that that's what we're really striving for, is to have that deep relationship

[00:12:02] with God.

[00:12:04] And it won't be all the time.

[00:12:06] I mean, she admits we move in and out of those levels of God.

[00:12:10] But I love that.

[00:12:11] And I love Julian of Norwich and what she went through during the plague and almost died.

[00:12:17] But the things that these mystics were able to do and that still have relevance for us,

[00:12:24] even though, you know, we're so worldly and we're so and, you know, all this stuff is happening

[00:12:29] in the world.

[00:12:29] But that if we really, really pay attention, it's true for us now, as true as it was in

[00:12:36] the 14th century.

[00:12:38] But we want to think that we are so much smarter.

[00:12:41] That's what it feels like to me sometimes.

[00:12:44] That's so interesting.

[00:12:46] Yes.

[00:12:46] When in the truth, perhaps we've just made ourselves busier.

[00:12:49] There's certainly more information available.

[00:12:54] And we equate intelligence with information.

[00:12:57] But sometimes, you know, depth and wisdom come from spaciousness and not knowingness and,

[00:13:04] you know, the depth that comes from being.

[00:13:08] And certainly we're behind our more ancient friends today in that regard.

[00:13:16] Yes, I agree.

[00:13:16] I think we're so bombarded with social media, with 24-7 news, with whatever is out there

[00:13:24] that we're just not taking time.

[00:13:27] We're not doing our spiritual practices.

[00:13:30] We're not even taking five minutes out of our day to say, thank you, God, for another day.

[00:13:37] We just aren't.

[00:13:39] It's as though we can't get enough of what's externally out there.

[00:13:45] And I'm really at a place in my life where I'm realizing the importance of my interiority.

[00:13:51] What's happening inside of me?

[00:13:53] What is it that I want to happen inside of me?

[00:13:56] Because life isn't going to stop outside of me.

[00:13:59] So how can I make it more comfortable for myself on the inside?

[00:14:04] I love that.

[00:14:06] And, you know, anything to—because you're a minister grounded in spiritual practice,

[00:14:12] but you work at Mile High Church and we're a busy effing place, right?

[00:14:16] And so there's so much going on.

[00:14:17] As a minister, how do you balance those?

[00:14:21] Sometimes I feel a little fraudulent, right?

[00:14:23] You know, somehow, oh, I meditate peace.

[00:14:25] Oh, here's the hundred things I have to get done in the next hour.

[00:14:28] Bang.

[00:14:28] And so, you know, you try to find some balance.

[00:14:30] How do you find it, if at all?

[00:14:32] Well, this was really funny because I just had this conversation this morning about the fact

[00:14:37] that some of the non-ministerial things that I do just seemed to have bombarded me today.

[00:14:44] And it was kind of—I felt some pissosity around it.

[00:14:49] And then I was able—then—and I do believe this was divine intervention.

[00:14:54] Then I thought, okay, I need to do some preparation for my semi-silent retreat in a week.

[00:15:00] And I sat down and I'm starting.

[00:15:02] And so what I'm working on is compassion.

[00:15:05] And so just being able to stop and start looking and reminding myself that all of that stuff out there,

[00:15:15] yes, it's annoying.

[00:15:18] But that if I can come back to a place where I recognize there are people in the world that have it so much worse than I have it at my worst moment.

[00:15:28] And just to be able to get back to understanding that that's my work.

[00:15:32] My work is to see people, which you had mentioned.

[00:15:35] It's so important for me to see people even if I don't agree with them.

[00:15:39] But to see them, love them, and let them know—and let them know that they're heard.

[00:15:45] So I guess for me, I'm no saint because I'm not always the best at balancing.

[00:15:53] I have a little physical challenge now that once I get that taken care of, then I can get back to playing my golf,

[00:15:58] which is kind of my way to just get out and be able to have a different experience.

[00:16:04] Because for those who play golf, I can hear them—or don't play golf, I hear them going,

[00:16:10] oh, my God, who walks on a field and hits that little white ball?

[00:16:14] What is the purpose?

[00:16:15] But being outside and being able to just experience nature in that way is as much as being really a great golfer.

[00:16:26] I love that.

[00:16:27] I love that.

[00:16:28] And just to these Saturdays that you're doing, that's something that I love that you're doing.

[00:16:34] And I hope grows and grows because we want Mile High Church to be a place where people can be quiet,

[00:16:41] a place where they can reflect, a place where either they can find God or God can find them in a sacred environment.

[00:16:48] And I'd love to hear a little bit more about what those mean to you and as a branch of your ministry here at Mile High and beyond.

[00:16:55] Well, it's really interesting because I never really thought of the contemplative life a lot,

[00:17:00] even though I came out of the Christian tradition.

[00:17:03] I think the contemplative life really shows up a lot in the Catholic tradition.

[00:17:08] And yet it's been much more normalized because Richard Rohr, for example, does a lot of work.

[00:17:15] He's with the Contemplative Action Center in Albuquerque, and he does a lot of work on contemplation.

[00:17:22] So for me, when I really realized during COVID, that was the huge when, you know, you were kind of trapped at home.

[00:17:29] And so I started listening to podcasts and listening to webinars that really took me into that space of that's where I want to be.

[00:17:37] And so what I love about it is being able to share that.

[00:17:40] And so we call it semi-silent because I lead the group in some types of practices.

[00:17:48] Then I send them out on their own, and we're over in the Vogt Chapel, so I send them out into the auditorium,

[00:17:56] or they can go outside if it's nice, and give them something to practice.

[00:18:01] And so it's all on them, what they do with that.

[00:18:05] And then they come back, and we move.

[00:18:07] I don't ask them to talk about it.

[00:18:09] What I'm trying to help them see is it's okay to get quiet.

[00:18:13] It's okay to spend time with yourself, not to be afraid of yourself,

[00:18:18] because I think a lot of us are afraid to go deep because we're afraid of what we'll find.

[00:18:24] Teaching advanced consciousness is a perfect example because one of the things we do is we talk about ourselves,

[00:18:30] and that is a tough thing because you think you've done all your work.

[00:18:35] So what this really allows them to do is get some new practices,

[00:18:39] some new things to take into their spiritual life that hopefully they will benefit from.

[00:18:48] Yeah, I love that you mentioned that, the challenges of coming conscious,

[00:18:52] because from a spiritual perspective we say, know thyself.

[00:18:57] It's so beautiful, and you'll feel one with everything.

[00:19:00] And yet Carl Jung once said, he was speaking of marriage,

[00:19:05] but he said that there's no coming to consciousness without pain.

[00:19:08] And I always try to share with my practice students to recognize that too,

[00:19:12] that part of the process of coming conscious is it's not that the pain is deep down in the core of you,

[00:19:18] but it's on the surface.

[00:19:19] And if you don't acknowledge it, you can't get to the center.

[00:19:24] And what I love most about anything that you shared is that interiority.

[00:19:29] It's time to live life focused not so much on the externals,

[00:19:34] but on the interior aspects of our beings,

[00:19:37] which we may argue are the ones that really last, perhaps even eternally.

[00:19:41] And, you know, life has a different dimension when we live from that interior

[00:19:46] as opposed to just for or as a victim to the externals.

[00:19:50] Right.

[00:19:50] And I love that because I'm doing a series right now on a podcast on Thomas Merton.

[00:19:59] And, of course, Thomas Merton was a hermit, basically.

[00:20:02] So it's a whole different thing to live by yourself

[00:20:06] and spend a lot of time on your interior life.

[00:20:09] But what we've got, I believe, is so important is that each one of us learn how to live in this world

[00:20:15] but to be able to live from our inside out, not from the outside in.

[00:20:22] And I think that's really something that's different from what people expect.

[00:20:30] You know, we hide often.

[00:20:33] We hide in all of those things that are going on around us

[00:20:38] because then we don't have to look at ourselves.

[00:20:40] We don't have to really become present to what's really going on.

[00:20:46] So that's the nature of the American people.

[00:20:51] It's just who we are.

[00:20:53] It is a big part.

[00:20:54] Well, I appreciate who you are, Jackie,

[00:20:56] and I appreciate you sharing with us today.

[00:21:01] Any final thought that you'd like to share with the listener?

[00:21:05] No, I just say I love Mile High Church.

[00:21:08] I am one of those people that when I came here, I jumped right in.

[00:21:12] And I would say to people, if you really want to practice that interior life,

[00:21:17] you really need to get involved in some of the classes

[00:21:21] and some of the opportunities that we have coming up.

[00:21:24] And we can always do a plug for our new Wednesday,

[00:21:27] or pardon me, midweek service that we're having.

[00:21:32] There are just so many opportunities for people to practice

[00:21:37] that go beyond that Sunday service, which is fabulous,

[00:21:41] but I would say go a little deeper.

[00:21:45] Yeah, I love that.

[00:21:46] That would be my vision for Mile High as we move into the future

[00:21:48] is you're not coming to your church, you're coming to yourself.

[00:21:51] Yes, absolutely.

[00:21:52] You're not coming to a place in Lakewood, Colorado,

[00:21:54] you're coming to your center, whether you come here physically

[00:21:58] or through some online medium,

[00:22:01] as I would love for people to think that home, yes, I love that,

[00:22:05] but also I'm coming back to me, and that's why I participate in this place.

[00:22:09] But Mile High is so blessed that you've enhanced it with all that you do,

[00:22:14] and I'm very grateful for you.

[00:22:16] Thank you.

[00:22:17] Have a great day.

[00:22:18] You too.

[00:22:18] Thank you.