Josh & Michelle: Post-Election Conversation

[00:00:00] Okay, Michelle, who'd you vote for? Michelle, it's great to be with you today. It is November, what is it? Does time even exist anymore? 14th. We had a big election in our country, which kind of affects everybody, which is part of the beauty of democracy, that that many people are paying attention to the leadership in our country.

[00:00:32] And you shared beautifully before Election Day, and I got to speak to the congregation after, that we're a purple congregation here at Mile Hi Church, so some of our folks are really pleased at the result of the election, and then there are some people who are just devastated and afraid.

[00:00:49] I'm afraid.

[00:00:50] And you know, it would be not genuine to say this was just like any normal election because Donald Trump is not a normal candidate and he is known for, I think of him like a WWF wrestler. You know, I mean he likes to say, you know, some extreme things that I think speak to the base but also might entertain people or have some kernel of truth. And it scares people…

[00:01:16] Oh, definitely.

[00:01:17] A lot.

[00:01:18] And because of how he responded after losing the last election, I think it scares people, too, about the health of democracy when you have a candidate who disputes election results or the peaceful transition of power.

[00:01:35] So I understand those things.

[00:01:38] Me, too.

[00:01:39] I understand them deeply, and I can really have great compassion.

[00:01:43] I mean, in looking at the results of the election, I feel really clear that as a white, heterosexual, cisgendered woman, middle class citizen of our country, that whatever comes from this new president – well, not really new, but – and that administration may not impact me directly.

[00:02:08] But I know – and that's the truth for a lot of people who have expressed concern – that there's concern now for marginalized people, for people who don't fit in those boxes, for some of the things and the freedoms that we fought for.

[00:02:21] And watching them go back as an older woman who's not facing any issues with having a baby or having to make a choice about a baby.

[00:02:31] You know, these things don't impact me, but I feel nervous and concerned about the people that it might impact.

[00:02:37] So I get it.

[00:02:39] Yeah, I think those concerns are there.

[00:02:41] And, you know, I remember when Donald Trump was first elected in 2016, you know, I was ministering in Seal Beach, California, and there was a lot of liberal women who were part of the congregation, and it was like a bomb went off.

[00:02:52] Oh, yeah.

[00:02:53] It was like, you know, people were walking to my office.

[00:02:56] They were stunned.

[00:02:58] You know, Trump, to his credit, had a surprise victory over Hillary Clinton.

[00:03:03] And, you know, she had won the popular vote.

[00:03:05] So there was that old thing going back to 2000.

[00:03:07] And, oh, and so, you know, some – and you had had that Access Hollywood tape.

[00:03:12] Oh, gosh.

[00:03:12] So it was, you know, for me an igniting of the feminine wound, which exists in our society.

[00:03:18] So as a minister, you had to really listen to that, whether, you know, you were a Republican or Democrat or whatever it was.

[00:03:27] You know, he had said some terrible things.

[00:03:30] And, you know, the women in my congregation were like – and we selected him to be leader of the free world.

[00:03:36] So I understood where they were coming from.

[00:03:38] You know, this election is interesting to me because although some journalists would tell us differently, he won pretty handedly.

[00:03:47] You know, he won those swing states.

[00:03:49] He won the popular vote.

[00:03:51] And for me, part of honoring democracy is sacred as you respect it.

[00:03:57] And so, you know, he is the president-elect of the United States.

[00:04:01] He has the right to bring forth his nominees for the positions you and I both cast.

[00:04:06] That's been weird.

[00:04:06] Matt Gaetz was nominated for attorney general yesterday because he has his own ethical issues that he's facing that should not be ignored.

[00:04:16] And yet, you know, we have these institutions in place.

[00:04:19] And, you know, I think one of the things about the stories of the Trump presidency last time, whether you're a supporter of him or not, he's an unorthodox person without a lot of experience in government.

[00:04:29] And so the people he has around him are really important.

[00:04:33] And for him or against him, you would recognize that the people in cabinet positions around him either helped him along or some would say kept him in check arguably fairly well.

[00:04:45] You know, and, you know, I think people are concerned about this time because who are some of these folks who've been against him in this campaign going to be in some of the nominations we see?

[00:04:53] But I also think that this is an opportunity, you know, even though there are concerns to say, hey, we have a judicial branch.

[00:05:01] We have a legislative branch.

[00:05:04] We have an executive branch.

[00:05:06] And you have to watch and see.

[00:05:08] And there is sometimes a difference between rhetoric and action.

[00:05:12] And, you know, this week has been hard for me because I think I shared Sunday three things with the congregation.

[00:05:17] One, democracy is sacred.

[00:05:19] We got to respect it.

[00:05:21] It doesn't mean you always have to support the people that are in there, but respect it.

[00:05:25] And congratulations to those who are happy.

[00:05:27] And I'm sorry to those who are not.

[00:05:29] There was that idea we're all citizens of the United States.

[00:05:32] And although it's probably wise for those who are unhappy with the result to turn to watch less news, you're still a citizen.

[00:05:38] You know, you are not out of the process.

[00:05:40] And I would say, in fact, if you did vote for him and you had some slight concerns, you better pay extra attention to your government.

[00:05:51] And I'm doing a Rick Perry.

[00:05:53] I can't remember the third thing that I said.

[00:05:57] You know, but it was probably – oh, I know what it was.

[00:06:01] It was there's a difference between grieving the election.

[00:06:04] That's right, and grievances.

[00:06:05] And having grievances.

[00:06:06] Yes, that was really good.

[00:06:07] And I do think – not that you have to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

[00:06:11] You can know who people are.

[00:06:13] But do think about how you really feel about the institutions of the United States.

[00:06:20] And let's focus on improving them, criticizing them, but uplifting them because I do think the institutions are more powerful than any person.

[00:06:29] And a lot of people in the congregation may disagree with me on that, and I respect that.

[00:06:34] And the thing that was hard for me, Michelle, was trying to give a unifying message.

[00:06:38] And some people who I understand are not ready to unify yet.

[00:06:42] They're feeling very hurt, and they would have preferred that we say this person is hateful and don't support him.

[00:06:50] And I hear where they're coming from, and I don't fully agree.

[00:06:54] I thought that it was kind of cool on the news to see yesterday as disappointing as many people are.

[00:07:00] President Biden, who we know doesn't like Trump, invite him into the office because he respects the presidency and respects the voice of the American people and is doing his job putting his own personal feelings aside.

[00:07:16] Does that mean – hopefully he's the first to criticize when something's going on, but that's what I want to see in my country.

[00:07:22] And he respects the transition of power.

[00:07:24] And I can say that I feel this hopefulness about the power of the American people's voice, that no matter who's in power as our president, that we can – not that I'm saying we should all have riots and go crazy, but that our voices can be heard.

[00:07:46] I have hope in our democracy.

[00:07:48] I have hope in the voice of women who are feeling marginalized or any group of people.

[00:07:53] And I have hope that we can stand together.

[00:07:57] And I do think that it's important for us as a church – I love how Michael Beckwith would talk about us being transdenominational.

[00:08:06] Well, I think we're also meant to be transpolitical.

[00:08:09] We rise above the political foray and we stand as a church and as a teaching, not above it from an arrogant standpoint, but above it from the world of form standpoint.

[00:08:20] And we stand in God and the truth that spirit and the infinite presence is alive and well no matter what.

[00:08:27] And watch the process and watch the process and I think as you've demonstrated in this conversation, support people, be with people, hear people, comfort people, love people, and try to find that voice that's above and beyond all of that while at the same time supporting our American democracy to live itself out.

[00:08:48] And I think people think we're naive to do that or they're so scared that they feel like we're doing a spiritual bypass to do that or that we're just being the happy, happy church.

[00:09:03] And I don't think that that's what we're doing.

[00:09:05] We're standing in a real way – I know I have this week and I know you have – with people who are very concerned as well as I've been with people in our church who are just elated.

[00:09:15] I mean I sat in church on Sunday and there was a woman sitting behind me and the whole time you were talking, she was clearly very happy at the results and she kept talking out loud and saying, well, I'm happy with the election.

[00:09:27] I'm happy about this.

[00:09:28] And I thought, there it is right there, here.

[00:09:31] Well, it's something I think for everyone to look at when someone's voting for the other side.

[00:09:36] I think that one of the things that we're hearing from people who are really hurt is if you voted for Trump, you're voting for hatred.

[00:09:43] And I understand their argument and yet what I would say about Mile High Church is we do – I'm not saying I agree with the way that they voted, but we have people who do not believe in hatred who did support Trump.

[00:09:55] And they have their reasons.

[00:09:56] Ask them.

[00:09:57] Try to understand.

[00:09:58] And I think that's a very difficult place to begin a conversation with whatever the 52% of America to label them as hating is probably a kind of hating in itself.

[00:10:14] And the term I think both of us have been using this year quite a bit is this politics of othering.

[00:10:20] And how do we rise above that, have no illusions, criticize, whatever it may be.

[00:10:25] And I think you even had a recent experience of quoting Holmes' before something and against nothing.

[00:10:31] And unfortunately, I do believe – and this is a political statement – is we live in an era of a politics of grievance.

[00:10:38] Look at the last several elections that we've had, midterms as well.

[00:10:41] It is always about voting against the people in power.

[00:10:45] Even Trump lost in 2020 as well as he's done because he was the person in power.

[00:10:50] And so it seems that we're voting against instead of for.

[00:10:54] And I do think at Mile High, great – good spiritual institutions, we can build up a better consciousness of for to help people in the future.

[00:11:02] Yes, there's nothing wrong with defining your opponent.

[00:11:05] But there is saying something about what it is that you want to co-create in the world and to say, yeah, I'm going to vote more for that than I am the D or the R or whatever it may be.

[00:11:16] And I think that you've shared to this topic really passionately and really clearly over the last few weeks especially.

[00:11:22] Yeah, yeah.

[00:11:23] And I think that it's important for us to continue to inspire hope and this kind of trans perspective and compassion and love.

[00:11:32] And I do want to share a quote that I saw today on hope in this that I just love because this person says,

[00:11:38] People speak of hope as if it's this delicate, ephemeral thing made of whispers and spiders' webs.

[00:11:45] It's not.

[00:11:45] Hope has dirt on her face, blood on her knuckles, the grit of the cobblestones in her hair, and just spat out a tooth as she rises for another go.

[00:11:53] And I think that sometimes that is what hope is.

[00:11:55] For those people who feel like they lost and they're losing hope because of what they see happening, don't lose hope.

[00:12:03] Don't lose hope because we're then contributing to this darkness we perceive on the planet.

[00:12:10] I mean, we have to go through a process of feeling sad and feeling shocked and feeling concerned.

[00:12:16] Of course, we don't lose that.

[00:12:18] But we also stand in that deep, deep, deep abiding sense of hope for the future of our country.

[00:12:23] Yeah, I love that and stay engaged.

[00:12:25] And I think after 2016, again, Trump being such an unorthodox choice, a lot of people who were concerned about him said,

[00:12:33] I'm going to watch more news.

[00:12:35] I'm going to subscribe to the Post and the Times, and I'm going to pay more attention to government than ever.

[00:12:40] This time, and I think there's wisdom in this, I'm going to watch some less news.

[00:12:44] Yeah, I'm going to step back.

[00:12:45] I'm going to not get caught up in the sensationalism, even though there may be some truth of it from Trump or from other sources.

[00:12:53] And I am going to nurture my own center a little bit more as opposed to saying, oh, I can't wait till 2026 or 2028.

[00:13:01] You know, I'm going to, as opposed to always focusing on the state of the country, I'm going to focus on the state of my own consciousness and my own center.

[00:13:07] I'm going to take the time to improve that.

[00:13:09] I'm going to watch my 20 favorite movies this year.

[00:13:11] You know, Hallmark Christmas movies, Hallmark Christmas movies.

[00:13:14] There you go.

[00:13:15] Now, there's a political stance we can get behind.

[00:13:18] I haven't watched one before, so we'll have to watch one together.

[00:13:20] You have to check it out.

[00:13:20] But I think there's some good validity to that.

[00:13:23] I do too.

[00:13:25] Versus, you know, I am no longer America.

[00:13:28] Right, right.

[00:13:28] This is not my country.

[00:13:30] Well, you know, that's what I don't want to see anyone do.

[00:13:33] And so even if you're disagreeing with stuff that Michelle and I are saying here, just know that we care, know that we respect your view.

[00:13:39] It's not always the idea to be like-minded in religious science.

[00:13:42] No.

[00:13:42] It's to be like-hearted and don't be, you know, a dick about everything all the time towards everybody.

[00:13:48] And, you know, part of, I think, of being open at the top, too, that makes it so special is that willingness to change our minds.

[00:13:57] Right.

[00:13:57] And, yes, don't sacrifice your values about honoring human dignity.

[00:14:03] But at the same time, realize that as you and I do, meeting people at Mile High Church around all over the place, people are genuinely good.

[00:14:14] Misguided sometimes, yes, blinded by the media, reality tunnels at times, yes.

[00:14:21] But most people do have good values.

[00:14:24] Yes.

[00:14:24] They do care about other people.

[00:14:26] And if we could create safe places for understanding and growing, we can get there.

[00:14:30] I think, Michelle, you and I think alike about the pulpit.

[00:14:34] You know, we're here to highlight issues from the pulpit.

[00:14:36] Right.

[00:14:36] But we're not here to take political positions.

[00:14:38] No.

[00:14:39] One, because you can't talk back.

[00:14:40] You're in a vulnerable position.

[00:14:42] Oh, right, right.

[00:14:43] And, two, because we respect your intelligence to take the facts and make your own decisions, whatever they may be.

[00:14:48] But in moments like this, in classroom sessions, in one-on-one, we're here to create safe places to create trust to have dialogue about these.

[00:14:57] And more often than not, the solution is not the hard part.

[00:15:00] It's the trust that creates the compromise and the highest and best for people.

[00:15:06] And I do think that spiritual institutions matter for that for now and in the days to come where we see, you know, the education system getting so much criticism.

[00:15:15] Obviously, the government getting so criticism.

[00:15:19] You know, community engagement being criticized, all this type of stuff.

[00:15:23] I do think that spiritual institutions of all faith have that ability to say, you're a conservative, you're a liberal, so what?

[00:15:31] You're a human being.

[00:15:31] You're an American.

[00:15:32] Let's talk about these things and build trust with one another and see the solutions that come forth.

[00:15:37] Because I think there's not a bad government lack in our country.

[00:15:44] There is a trust gap that makes us really struggle to figure out the known common sense solutions to some of the issues that we face.

[00:15:53] Yeah, and for me, one of the last things I'll say about this is I'm taking a page from our Christian brothers and sisters when they ask, what would Jesus do?

[00:16:00] And I've thought a lot about Jesus and his political times.

[00:16:04] And we can, as you've said, we can criticize the system.

[00:16:08] We can question our government.

[00:16:10] But what I am unwilling to do is stop loving people because they may have voted in a way that I didn't vote.

[00:16:19] Or stop loving people in our congregation who don't agree with everything I might say politically.

[00:16:25] That the key thing that I think we need to follow right now is what would Jesus do with each other?

[00:16:31] We'd still love each other.

[00:16:32] And it has kind of broken my heart to hear about families that are unwilling to love each other because they disagree about politics.

[00:16:40] And I totally get, again, as we've been saying, the stakes are high.

[00:16:45] It's a scare.

[00:16:46] I get it.

[00:16:47] But love is bigger than that and bolder than that and can penetrate that story and that conversation.

[00:16:52] And so it's been really important for me if people challenge me on Facebook or in my personal life to really take a deep breath, not get defensive, and let love have its way with me to say, tell me more about what you're thinking.

[00:17:05] Just share with me.

[00:17:07] I love that.

[00:17:09] And again, in mind of people who are very happy with the election result, remember, yeah, Jesus did pretty good in his ministry under Roman rule.

[00:17:16] He did.

[00:17:17] When you look at all the great spiritual teachers, they developed a lot of their spirituality in spite of governments that they would have seen as oppressive or difficult.

[00:17:27] So there's no reason to not continue to speak your truth.

[00:17:32] And time goes pretty quickly.

[00:17:34] And so there'll be another vote here coming up in two years.

[00:17:36] And so Trump will either show his ability to govern well.

[00:17:40] I think it's always hard for a president actually when they have all the branches of government behind them.

[00:17:48] I would like to see the last time that they remained with those in power at the next midterm.

[00:17:54] And I know there's other concerns of other things taking place.

[00:17:57] But watch.

[00:18:00] Judge them for what they do, not always just for what they say.

[00:18:04] And be a part of your local community.

[00:18:06] Be a part of your state politics.

[00:18:08] Pay attention.

[00:18:09] Be good citizens.

[00:18:11] And honor everyone's right to be an American and to speak their voice towards who they vote for, whether or not you agree with them, and then get back to work.

[00:18:22] Yeah.

[00:18:23] And come to church.

[00:18:24] And come to church.

[00:18:25] And I always think that it's that motto of South Carolina back to maybe to end on this note of hope, while I breathe, I hope.

[00:18:32] And to me, that's the definition of American is as you breathe, you hope.

[00:18:36] Yep.

[00:18:37] Most definitely.

[00:18:38] All right, Michelle.

[00:18:39] Thanks so much for your time.

[00:18:40] Thank you, Josh.

[00:18:41] Thank you.