Emily Pabst | Remake The Rules | Discussion Combustion Podcast | #297

[00:00:00] We'll have this discussion. Discussion? What discussion? This is a discussion. Combustion. Coming to you from Denver, Colorado, this is Discussion Combustion Podcast with your hosts Kevin Batstone and Arthur Rawe.

[00:00:16] Welcome back to another Discussion Combustion. This is episode 297. There's a lot of episodes and we have Emily on the couch. We're having a great conversation with you prior to hitting this record button. And Denver Entrepreneur, are you from Denver originally? Originally I'm from mid-Missouri. So I've been out in the Denver, Colorado area like 15 or so years.

[00:00:41] Okay. So you kind of got here, I got here in 07. Okay. So like right before everyone moved here? Yep. So you kind of saw that too, a little bit pre-Dember? Yeah. I was like in and out. I came to college out here, moved around, and then came back like 12 years ago. Where in Missouri? Columbia, Missouri. Okay. I've been through, I'm familiar with it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So is like the barbecue better in Missouri than it is here? Yes. Yes. Oh, that's, that's, I mean. Easy answer.

[00:01:07] Yeah. But they don't have green chili. That is true. They don't have the chili. I know, but that's not really a barbecue. Like Colorado doesn't know barbecue. I'm sorry. You guys, you try. I agree. Don't be sorry. There's some Texans that come up here that bring great barbecue, but you know, the Midwest, they have their style. Texas has their style. Colorado, let's stick to green chili. Yeah. Yeah. We're not a barbecue. So we're not a barbecue state by any means. They try. You know, I mean, everybody wants the grill is grilling, barbecuing though.

[00:01:34] Depends on are we smoking meats? Are we flipping burgers? I mean, just grill like you're using a grill. I guess it used to be considered barbecuing, but like when you talk barbecue, we're talking, you know, burnt ends, pulled pork, brisket. That's, that's kind of what Missouri's known for us, the burnt ends.

[00:01:49] Absolutely. Absolutely. Something that I have like become a little sad about with the burnt ends situation is it's become so popular that now it's being kind of created and cut from the meat instead of the leftovers from the meat. And the purist in me is, is totally bummed about that. Yeah. Yeah. They're trying to shortcut it now. And I've seen like people use like a baloney, like a whole one. They cut that up and do burnt ends that way. It's like, what are we doing here? What are we doing? It's, you know, we're getting wild.

[00:02:16] Yeah. I mean, Hey, I didn't, I didn't mean to go down the free rabbit hole so quickly. I know. Usually we get into that later. We got business. Yeah, I know. I just barbecue popped in my head, but you are actually helping people unlock their own potential by what it sounds like is integrating digital solutions into like modern problems. With like business relationships. It seems like you touch a lot of different realms.

[00:02:41] For sure. Yeah, I do. And no worries about the barbecue conversation. I will talk about food anytime, anywhere. Oh, there'll be more to come. Stay tuned. Everyone's like, okay, okay. More food will come. But right now, remake the rules, right?

[00:02:54] Yes, that's right. So the business that I started is called remake the rules. And I refer to myself as a choice tech consultant. And the term choice tech is something that I have started to use to really explain this huge umbrella of powerful digital information tools that impact the way people make decisions.

[00:03:14] And these powerful digital information tools is really showing up in huge proportions of people's lives and can be very helpful to solving them and also can be tremendously frustrating and problematic for folks as they're attempting to use information tech to solve what is really complex social questions and problems. So is like open AI one of these types of tools?

[00:03:45] Definitely. So like generative AI tools is something that I find myself talking about a lot these days, right? I think it's top of mind for a ton of folks. Yeah.

[00:03:54] And the way that I tend to interact with folks about it is questions about what problems do we really want to outsource to our technology tools? Like what problems and questions do we really want our AI tools working on for us where we have sort of pulled ourselves a little bit out of the problem solving, right?

[00:04:47] Mm-hmm. To do exactly what you're just saying. Hey, I got this kind of project. Hey, I'm, you know, help me out with this type of email. I'm trying to deliver this type of message. Mm-hmm. And why I do think it is a great tool and it's good to start utilizing it and learning how to use it. It's first using it the right way, which is kind of what you're talking about.

[00:05:09] And then also like, do we suffer creativity, like on our creative level long-term because we're trying to hit the easy button. And that's something that like I struggled with more like two years ago when it was first coming out. I was like, oh, this is going to ruin writing for people and all this other stuff. So there's definitely a lot of topics there.

[00:05:32] For sure. For sure. For sure. Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the most interesting things about all of these choice tech tools, right? Any of these digital tools that are impacting how we're making decisions and how other people are making decisions is that so many of them are new or essentially brand new. You know, we're talking about absolute max age of these is going to be a couple decades, which really that's probably disingenuous because technology has changed so much in 20 years.

[00:06:01] So the outcomes, the long-term outcomes, mid-term outcomes, we just, we simply do not know because not enough time has passed. So, so we are just running this huge kind of global experiment on almost everyone on earth. And I guess we're just going to see what happens. It's happening quickly. Yeah. I mean, we were just talking about that on the parking lot, just like these deep fakes and all these AI videos that are coming out now is, is unbelievable. Don't know what's real. It's hard to take it at face value.

[00:06:28] And so, so you're saying you kind of come at it from a consultative approach of, you know, here's where it makes sense. Here's where it doesn't. Here's kind of, you know, where maybe you should have more human element involved with this decision rather than AI. You kind of look at all those things under a microscope. Yeah, precisely. So it's, it's essentially sort of a process analysis, but the process that we're looking at is, complex collaborative decision-making systems that include humans and information technology tools.

[00:06:56] So the sort of big complex messiness of how we are now sort of all making decisions and how we're all communicating with each other and, and likely trying to impact the way other people make choices too with these information tools. Okay. That's pretty in depth. What's been the most interesting thing that you've seen so far during your work with not, I mean, not only AI, but just collectively what you, you know, what you've seen and what you've done that has drastically changed with human behavior.

[00:07:23] Huh. So like what, where I'm seeing that human behavior is. Like the trends. So one of the conversations that I am having all the time with folks is about default thinking. So sort of, I would say this, there's an overwhelming part of our culture and how we're sort of thinking about it. Integrating these new tools is defaulting into using them.

[00:07:47] A new tool comes along or a new tool is brought to our attention and kind of the default is to start incorporating it. Mm-hmm. With everything. With everything. Right. And so a lot of what I do is sort of pull back on that default, right. And kind of help people gain some more confidence, some better footing to say, actually, there's like a lot of incentive and there's a lot of just like pushing me towards this quote unquote inevitable outcome.

[00:08:16] But we're actually going to take a moment because this is actually a pretty high stakes situation. You know, so I generally focus on folks who are either doing executive leadership. So they're leading large organizations, folks who run their own businesses or also people who are doing online dating. These are very high stakes choices that people are making that impact their lives and potentially also the lives of other people.

[00:08:43] So this idea that we're kind of just defaulting into these tools is pretty interesting, right. But I think it is the norm. It is the norm. And it's almost a norm that has been intentionally presented as the way that it is, right? Because they want more integration, you know, and all this. And it is kind of interesting.

[00:09:11] I kind of find myself craving, you know, being outside more. Like when I'm on my phone more, I don't feel as good as I do when I'm visiting outside. Or, you know, even if I'm like relying too much on AI, like if I feel like there's not it doesn't come off authentic. Like that's not me. So I need to make sure that I'm going through and like if I am using it, that I make it my own.

[00:09:37] And to where it is a great tool, it's still inhuman, right? So it's processing information and it doesn't have the like subconscious. It's not attached to the conscious collective if everyone believes that exists. Well, that's why it's artificial, right? Yeah. So it's really interesting because it is important and it is like this norm and it's being used in business.

[00:10:03] But what you're saying is that there's like a still a great value to a more human aspect of business. And I think, yes, absolutely. And also to re-centering the human as the decision maker, you know, right?

[00:10:21] And I work with individuals or very small groups and it is about re-centering them in their own decision making for these sort of like very significant decisions that they're trying to make. And the decision might come down to, yes, this is a powerful tool that is actually going to get me what I want because that is part of the appeal of these tools, right?

[00:10:45] Because there is a lot of potential, but the potential for positive versus negative outcomes, right? That's kind of the big question. But it is at least to allow people and give them sort of the confidence and, you know, with my background in information systems, right? Some additional background to say, yes, this is the right choice for me instead of just defaulting into that choice or no, this is not the right choice for me.

[00:11:11] So kind of calculating risk at, you know, real life level rather than just AI calculate the best opportunity here. We see a lot with the hiring process now, right? Scan this resume when you're not getting that human element and sitting down with the person talking about their background. They don't even get a chance because AI says, yeah, this probably isn't the best fit for your business. For sure.

[00:11:29] And I think that we as sort of the designers of those systems and the users of those systems are going to have to get so much better at using them because the collaborative nature is what's very important, right? That you need to be able to ask the right questions about the skill sets that you need for hiring. And I think that those questions are shifting greatly and a lot of people are struggling to keep up.

[00:11:59] Like, what is it about an employee that I really need? And not necessarily these like surrogate data points, you know, like do you need the degree or do you need the skill set that the degree represents essentially, right? Kind of walking it back to questions like that. Because as soon as you point an AI tool at sort of reading and judging, making judgments about these resumes, it's going to do that at like a million miles an hour, right?

[00:12:27] It's just going to be boom in this one specific direction. And if it's the wrong direction, then you've kind of screwed yourself, right? Yeah, because it's expensive, you know, and to like have all your stuff out there. So it's like AI is part of everything. The hiring process is extremely concerning. So like we were talking about how the technology behind deep faking and like how we can't trust the news, anything online, like I almost think everything is satire.

[00:12:54] So since I'm speaking with an expert right now, I've seen some videos on TikTok where people are sitting in job interviews and they are getting interviewed by like a chat bot type of AI platform that is asking them questions and then like getting stuck on a question. And it's like this weird, it's basically a defeat. It's a defeating TikTok that I essentially think is unhealthy because they're talking about how difficult it is to find a job.

[00:13:22] And then once you finally do, then you're encountering an AI interviewing you and how defeating that is. So I don't typically like that stuff on my feed, but it is interesting. And is that something that like jobs are actually doing is like, sure, the AI scans your resume, but then when you actually go do the interview, it's with AI. Like, have you seen or heard of that? Yeah, I mean, it's only in the same way that you have seen and heard about it.

[00:13:46] That being said, if it's not happening yet, it will be soon because why wouldn't you try to take some of the labor off of a team? And, you know, right, this is the big push, right? This is the massive default that we're seeing folks participating in, which is decreasing human labor and allowing tech labor to take over.

[00:14:13] And it can be done well and it can be done extraordinarily poorly. Yeah. And that is, and I think that that is one of the main skill sets that I'm helping to bring to people too is also like, how do you successfully collaboratively work with these incredible powerful tools that you can point in almost any direction? And it could be the exact wrong direction, right? Yeah.

[00:14:40] And are they using, are they asking AI which direction in the first place to use the AI? I know you had a question. Well, no, I'm just piggybacking off of all that because it opens up a can of worms. Like there's so many different areas you can go with AI. You can calculate every decision and recalculate and then recalculate that. Like, which one do you trust? Do you go with the first one the AI gives you? Do you go with your gut? Like, I can see where there's a consultative approach to it. Do you, do you guys use AI frequently? I would say I use it probably three times a week. Yeah.

[00:15:09] About the same. Yeah. And it's, it's usually to, cause I always like to mention like spell check. When we first had spell check on Microsoft Word, that was like our first introduction to AI. And everyone was like, well, no one's going to know how to spell words now. And that might be true. There you go. I'm guilty of that. And so usually what I'll utilize it for is, you know, help me make this email a little bit more approachable. But it's still me implementing everything I want into it. Kind of clean some things up. Boom, boom, boom. Puts in some words that I end up removing because I wouldn't use them.

[00:15:36] That's probably where I use it the most is just kind of cleaning up some text. Yeah. Awesome. AI podcast. Yeah. I mean, it's just spitting out an audio file. It's just two, two bots going like us chatting. Yeah. Really? Yeah. So they got, I mean, I've seen like short videos on it and then there's like this jibber. No, it's like something gibbery language.

[00:16:06] It's like some kind of robotic language that AI created in order to speak with other AI more effectively. It's like glibber or something. It's like something along those lines. But AI podcasting is a real thing now. Really? It'll just be like movies. You know, it'll be food. And then they're just talking about that, going back and forth. That once again removes that human element of number one, why we started to do it. Yeah.

[00:16:30] You know, personalities, characteristics, authenticity, you know, someone once told me that like being in sales, which is what I do outside of this, is almost AI proof. But it isn't at the same time. Right. Because once these bots get better, they will know how to negotiate. They will know how to approach things differently. But you don't have that consultative selling approach from a bot. I don't feel like, you know, bringing you lunch or, you know, getting to know your story and that more personal approach. I don't know if AI is capable of that yet. It might be. Yeah.

[00:16:59] You know, we just don't know. And I mean, like, you certainly hear the stories of folks who are developing relationships with bots. Yeah, I've heard that. You know. Romantic relationships. Exactly. So there is some sort of connection in that regard that is being bridged. I think it's concerning. Yeah. I mean, anytime I bring up AI, I always mention the fact that Terminator 2 is my favorite movie of all time. John Connor, Skynet, Cyberline Systems. You know, they try to warn us. Yeah. The machine is coming and it's here. And we're all like, okay, rain it down upon me.

[00:17:30] We're like asking it how to diagnose our health and stuff. So it's crazy. Yeah. How do they use? What do you think about that? Yeah. Like AI for medical. And then I was also curious, like, how are they using AI in dating apps too? Like. Yeah. There's a lot of, it's so many different nuances.

[00:17:49] So two great sort of like opposite ends of the spectrum or comparisons, right, is the AI that's being used for medical diagnosis and the AI that is being integrated into dating platforms. So, and here's where it becomes challenging, right? If this were a black and white issue, then we wouldn't be struggling so much.

[00:18:10] If AI had no positive benefits and as an entire society, we could come together and say, this is a waste of resources and a waste of time and we don't want to do it, then we would probably do that. But that isn't the case. There is extraordinarily, extraordinary positive potential for these tools too. And one of them is like reading x-rays, right?

[00:18:32] And if you train, and this is where the training comes in, you can train software to very specifically be incredibly good at some tasks. And what they have been training some AI programs to do is be very good at reading x-rays or reading other diagnostic tests. And because it is essentially, you're essentially building a brain that is a specialist in that exclusively, it can be incredibly good at it.

[00:18:56] And it can be incredibly, and it can be better than human brains who have to be in charge of a lot more things and a lot more expertise. So like that is kind of where we are seeing some really positive potential for these tools. More on the medical side? Yeah, yeah. And on the sort of highly skilled side, right?

[00:19:18] Where there is ways in which it can do analysis and measurements that can be sort of like a yes or no, right? That we are increasing this probability of accuracy.

[00:19:35] And if there are signals, so in this case, like a diagnostic test or an x-ray, a signal that can be analyzed in a way that you can have a higher and higher likelihood of being accurate in your determination of like, yes, you know, positive outcome of this diagnostic test. Or no, like this person does not have whatever we're measuring for. Then the better you can be at reading those things, the better people will be who are getting those tests, right?

[00:20:04] They'll have fewer false negatives and fewer false positives. All right.

[00:20:39] Seems unlikely to me. And also not something I would recommend that people outsource to a technology, right? Like it's been shown through psychological studies that who you choose to be your partner is one of the most impactful choices that a person can make in their entire life for good and for bad.

[00:21:06] And so I think that it would make sense to want to be in charge of that choice for yourself, right? I agree with that. Yes. And like, by all means, make room in your brain to make that choice by having AI help you write emails, you know? Sure. But let's conserve that brain power for these like very high stakes choices that we still have to make. So what does, because I'm not real well versed in the dating world.

[00:21:29] What does AI do specifically that you're aware of within these apps or tools that can help or hurt the dating scene? Yeah. I mean, great question. I think that's a lot. Because to my knowledge, there isn't a lot being advertised, right? This is kind of the black box situation.

[00:21:48] And there already were sort of like algorithmic tools that are, you know, quote unquote, matching people through these various daring dating platforms that are now, you know, probably potentially pushing into the AI realm. But I think that we're probably going to start seeing, or maybe they already exist and I just haven't clocked it yet, AI driven matching, right? So essentially, it's like giving you potential.

[00:22:17] So like one of the issues that people have with online dating apps is an abundance of choice. And that abundance of choice doesn't feel like it's actually options that you want, right? So you're kind of swimming in too many matches and not enough compatible matches or quote unquote, good enough matches.

[00:22:35] So I have a feeling that in order to cater to those frustrations and concerns, there's going to be products that come up that say, we are going to use AI to significantly limit the demographic that you're going to see. Which I think has its own issues, right? Because now, again, you're kind of maybe only seeing a handful of folks that has been created from a list who knows how or why.

[00:23:01] Yeah, I think my biggest concern just with online dating in general, is the lack of follow through and actually meeting people in person. Because you can get into all these online conversations and text with somebody, not even call or have a video call or an actual conversation. And like have this six month long build up to nothing ever happening.

[00:23:30] And then there's like this let down in expectation. And so like, I don't know, with online dating for me, I feel like you almost have to know it's a numbers game. And like people who accept you for who you are will meet up if they're actually interested with you, then they'll schedule a video call before you set an in-person date. That was always my role. I would get in touch. I'd say, hey, I want to do a video call. And then if the video call went well, then I would schedule a real date.

[00:24:00] And then, you know, if that went well, then so on and so forth. But it's so easy because you're dating online because probably you don't have the self-confidence to put yourself out there in person. So you're kind of hiding behind a screen. And then you're not actually like getting in touch with these people via video call, actual phone calls. You could hear their voice or in person. And then you're dealing with the screen and then you're looking at social media.

[00:24:27] And it's almost just like this vortex of looking for companionship and company. And then you are just looking at a screen all the time. And so it's like it could be extremely defeating. So like ways to help people navigate that is like that can be an important thing because I also completely agree with your statement. Like who you pick can like I just found out today and no names.

[00:24:54] But like I had an ex-lover that was charging stuff on one of my accounts that I just uncovered today. And that was like five years ago. That was like four years ago. It's wild out there. You know, and that was the choice I made to have that person in my life at some point. And then they're still trying to take advantage of me. So it's like it's crucial who you decide to have around. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like the numbers game of it all is so interesting.

[00:25:22] One of the main skills that I help people develop is probabilistic thinking. And it's not necessarily to turn everyone into like a statistician or a data scientist, right? Like that's not in the cards. But what we can do is sort of shift our brains into thinking about what it really means to now be interacting with potentially a thousand people a day. Right? That's a lot. That's a lot.

[00:25:48] And it is not those types of large numbers is not something that our brain is just immediately equipped to deal with. Right? Like we need to teach ourselves mathematics. We need to teach ourselves higher mathematics. Right? And without that, our brains just kind of stay in a small numbers realm.

[00:26:08] And even though, you know, we have all sort of learned higher mathematics in school to some regard, right, through like junior high and high school, we can still sort of like continue to like midbrain, lizard brain. Right? We're just living in a small numbers world. So when we get 10 rejections, it feels like, oh, my God, the entire village hates me. Right? Like I am in danger. Nobody likes me.

[00:26:34] But that is not the actual reality that we live in anymore. So trying to kind of shift the brain to be understanding what these larger numbers like really means in the context of 2025 of modern life, you know, and maybe you can interact with hundreds of people online and not find someone that you really click with.

[00:27:01] And that it can be time consuming and frustrating, but doesn't mean that the village hates you. Right? Yeah. And trying to sort of reframe what those numbers actually mean. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of getting away from the discouraging piece of it. Because I see that a lot with some of my friends, coworkers, whatever. Oh, you know, it's not going well. 10 no's and this and that. I like to use sports analogies a lot because I'm a sports guy.

[00:27:26] And, you know, baseball, you're considered like amazing batting average if you can hit it out of a thousand, 225 times. Right? Right. And that's considered amazing MLB stats. Some guys are at 187. These are the best in the world. Right? So when you look at that, that means you're getting over 700 no's out of a thousand. That's a pretty strong percentage. Yeah. So it's a little bit, you know, of conditioning and understanding that. But I think, you know, in this instant gratification world, they just want to go on there, find a match. Boom, boom. Let's meet. Let's not meet.

[00:27:56] Go through whatever you were saying and just move on to the next. You know, just get back on there and swipe to the next one. I mean, everything is just so accelerated now. Yeah. And like the blessing and the curse of these digital information tools where more people can connect in, you know, quote unquote, one place, right? One digital app than ever before is that you can have a huge spectrum of users with all different kinds of expectations and interests and priorities. Right.

[00:28:26] Including people who never actually want to meet anyone in person and just want to swipe and chat sometimes. Right. And then so for the folks who are showing up ready to like put in, you know, the effort to meet or whatever, that can feel very defeating. But we also have a tendency to think like I signed up for this thing for this purpose and I assume that the rest of the users and this is largely unconscious.

[00:28:53] Because I think if you were to ask someone like specifically, do you think everyone is there for the exact same thing as you? They'd say no. But when people are swiping and when people are feeling frustrated, the thought is all of these people are doing it wrong because they're not doing it like me. But that was, I mean, never really the agreement to begin with. It's essentially just like anybody can show up on this platform who wants to.

[00:29:19] And what it provides is access to that incredible high number of people, but not necessarily discernment in that access. And that's sort of what I help people with is within an app that has limited built in, again, those defaults for discernment. Right. It usually says something about like religion, relationship goals, height, whatever. Right. You know, you get maybe like 12 facts about a person, none of which might be important to you at all.

[00:29:49] So how do we figure out a way to build discernment into this platform where you have access to so many people, some of which are likely positive potential people, but you don't really have an obvious path forward to connect with them and to find them. Mm-hmm.

[00:30:05] So we sort of like creatively figure out how to use the platform in order to do that, to create a system that actually works better at finding people with a higher likelihood of compatibility at the end of the day. Definitely a lot of waters to navigate there. One thing I like that you said that if someone's not doing it the way I'm doing it, then they're doing it wrong. And that's kind of a common theme that we see outside of dating, just in general, like, oh, you're not doing it like me. That must be wrong.

[00:30:33] You know, and if you're already going in with that, like kind of block up, you're missing out. Right. I mean, I used to be that person for sure. I was always like, nope, my way or the highway. You know, and then you start seeing other perspectives. You get around other ideas. It's important. You know, but I guess online, you're kind of confined to that. You don't really have as much of those real life scenarios. You know, when, like Art said, you're behind a screen, you jump on a video call. Well, everything is just so streamlined through technology now, breaking through that barrier. Because again, I've never done that. So that's kind of out of my world a little bit as far as my expertise. Yeah.

[00:31:02] But I can imagine it seems overwhelming. Yeah. And like overwhelming is exactly it. Like I talk a lot about choice inflation, which is this idea that we as individuals and also as organizations have to make more and more choices that are more and more complicated. And part of that sort of counterintuitively is because of all these information tools. Like never before have we had the opportunity to integrate as much information as we have into our decision making, right?

[00:31:30] And because we have all of these new tools, it actually is sort of destroying or diminishing the way that we used to do things. So now we have to recreate how we, you know, including just like literally how we get groceries has changed, right? In the past 10 years. So true. So there's so much that we are being asked to re-figure out that we get stuck in these cycles of choice inflation. And then we get to decision fatigue faster.

[00:31:59] And then we start making lesser and lesser choices for ourselves because we're just literally out of brain power. Like we run out of processing power. Yeah. And a lot of people like it how it was in the old days, you know, and I work in change management for my job. And to implement change, not only on like a business level, you have to impact a person individually.

[00:32:26] And I've been guilty of this in the past too. A lot of people are doing the bare minimum. And so like they don't want to give it the extra effort, let alone change how they're giving effort in the first place. And then so then they start using the AI tools to try to hit the easy button. And then they might not be implementing it correct because so there's like a major domino effect, which you're what you're talking about here.

[00:32:55] Of like the fatigue and the amount of decisions and then people kind of just being stuck in their old ways. And it's interesting because things are always going to continue to evolve and be different. And sure, things might have worked well in the past. And maybe I think we will get to a point as humanity like where we start to value doing it. Like at what point do we go too far with technology? I think we're seeing it.

[00:33:23] Like at what point is it too far? We're pushing the envelope. And then who actually is going to be able to speak to all the multi-billion dollar companies, stakeholders and stuff and get them to take less profits by getting... It's one of those things where it's like so far gone too at the same time where it's like we're in it. Right. You can't unbring the bell, right? Yeah.

[00:33:53] And so it's like what do you do? Like you have to kind of... Control what you can control. You have to stay adaptable. Yeah. Yeah. Control your attitude I feel like is an important one. Yeah. Things we can control. You know, we talk about all these decision-making tools for us. I mean, I want to pick my tomatoes out at the grocery store. I don't want to hire... What is it? The click list or whatever. That's another decision that someone else is making for you. I want to feel the avocados. And for some folks, they're like, never in my life do I need to touch an avocado again. Yeah. By all means. I would love for someone else to do that.

[00:34:23] That's one last choice. It just depends, right? That's interesting. That's true. Different users. You know, different things. Yeah. And I think that for me, it really comes down to potential of these tools. Like they do have the potential for extraordinary harm. They do. We know that. But they also, you know, I believe have the potential for like incredible utility and positivity. But it comes down to how we integrate them into our lives and how we collaborate with those tools and use them. Right.

[00:34:51] And for me, that is a skill set that we are all desperately playing catch up to learn, you know, because we all now are like living lives, already had a bunch of responsibilities and choices to make. And now sort of the entire information landscape keeps changing under our feet. So keeping up can be very challenging. Hence, remake the rules. Hence, remake the rules. See, I got to hit you with a shark tank question now.

[00:35:20] So they usually, you know, these great ideas come in. Where did the ideas start? Like where did the passion for all this come from? Yeah. In a nutshell, I guess. In a nutshell, so my background is in creating kind of complex analytical tools to help large scale organizations make choices about their operations and about their administration.

[00:35:42] And as I was making these tools that were like really cool and neat, you know, I like loved it, geeked out on it, could create some very interesting information about what people are doing and the choices they're making and how we can kind of nudge them into better decision making, whatever, whatever, whatever.

[00:36:03] But, you know, I realized that as we were building these tools and building these tools, it was just as critical that the people who were using them to make choices and the people who were inputting information into these systems needed to have a baseline skill set of collaborating with them, of working with them, of sort of understanding them.

[00:36:26] And again, like we don't all need to be data scientists or whatever, but it is a collaborative system that needs to include all collaborators and all collaborators need to have the skills and understanding to really integrate their thinking with these computational processes. Like that's essentially what we're asking folks to do.

[00:36:49] But then we, I think have just left behind the skillset part of it, the human part of it. Right. And kind of while I was thinking about that in my professional life, I was seeing essentially the exact same thing play out in my personal life with friends who were using online dating and who were attempting to like, again, incorporate all these tools in a way that just wasn't working.

[00:37:17] Like we've been promised the sun and the moon and we're getting nothing. So what is happening? Right. And so this kind of thought that our digital information tools are kind of far outpacing our capacity to use them. So we need to work on that capacity as well. And not become too dependent on it. Right. Because that's the thing. Everyone's too dependent. Just ask AI. AI knows, you know, that too much decisions are being made by AI. Do you ever see idiocracy? Yeah.

[00:37:46] I mean. It's coming up a lot these days. It comes up a lot. But I mean, we're kind of there in some degree. You know, it's definitely headed that way more than it isn't as far as the decision making process goes. I mean, everything is just, what is it telling me to do? What do you feel you should do? Like we kind of lost touch with, you know, intuition and real life analytics. You know, what's going on around you? Like, oh, AI, here take a picture of it. It will tell you what's wrong with it. Just always finding that shortcut. And I guess knowledge is power to some degree.

[00:38:16] But like at what point, or maybe we're already there, we've removed the human element too much. You know? So I get it. It makes sense. I think when we start getting like a Bluetooth connection to our brain. Oh, I would never do that. And you could like hook it up and then like look at a computer screen and like think of where it's clicking. I'm not putting anything in me. I mean, how awesome that would be to have. But at the same time, I would never trust a company that was able to make that with what they would do with it. Too much risk.

[00:38:44] And so I'm going to go really human here and kind of off kilter. Okay. So I'm just, I'm just, I'm curious to see what Emily thinks about this. Okay. And so I've been listening to a lot of audio books recently and Napoleon Hill is a pretty renowned author and wrote Think and Grow Rich, which is a book that talks about how to use your mind and implement thoughts and like kind of default your own thought process to being more positive, optimistic.

[00:39:14] A lot of great stuff in there that I was very familiar with, but one piece of information, which is real, I'm curious to see what you think on this is there was a, a chapter on how humans are telepathic. And, and through intuition, which is our sixth sense that we actually have a level of intuition, which is almost similar to being telepathic.

[00:39:41] And you can, I mean, how many coincidental times have you like thought about somebody and they call you on the phone or like you think about, I'm thinking about something at work and then they hit me up. Like, and so there's so many things like that. So removing the whole AI conversation, do you think that it's possible that by removing alcohol substances and like getting your mind more pure that, that people can tap into a level of telepathy?

[00:40:08] Do you think it's possible or that this is even in reality? Yeah, I, so one of the things that I am a little bummed out about myself is my sort of lack of woo woo. I like love when people are like into, you know, additional senses and like spirits and ghosts and stuff. And I like wish I had it in me, but I don't. Okay. But like, love it.

[00:40:37] Don't feel it. Okay. But what I will say about it that I do find so interesting, and this is sort of where I think I personally have a pathway as someone who is sort of doggedly analytical towards these ideas. Um, that I do really enjoy and like, and appreciate and have a part of me that is like, I wish, you know, I wish, but the human brain as a chart is capable of incredible processing.

[00:41:03] And I think what we continue to learn is that information processing happens in a lot of different ways and in sort of more ways throughout the body than we had previously believed. And so when I think about intuition, that's what I think about. That we are absolutely thinking about and processing information and making choices that isn't happening up here, right?

[00:41:33] Like in our frontal lobes. Mm-hmm. That it is happening like in other parts and that it is also a knowledge base that can be incredibly powerful and incredibly useful. And conversations around like substances that might diminish that processing is also really interesting. Yeah. And I think my favorite one to talk about is the sort of distraction, dissociation of it all.

[00:42:01] Because like, sure, we can sort of like add these traditional substances that I certainly have enjoyed in the past myself. But then the sort of information processing tools themselves can also become these ways of sort of disrupting our capacity for following our own thoughts and chains of thought. You know, right?

[00:42:31] Like who among us has not just like scrolled and scrolled and scrolled and scrolled, you know, right? All guilty. Yeah, right? For sure. Yes. Yeah. And so, again, it's kind of like we have this tool that can do so much and can provide more information. But we can also use it in a way that is like kind of less quieting, right? Causing that sort of like distraction, dissociation at the same time. So, like.

[00:43:01] You're not counting it out. No. But, and that's the thing too is like. What if we were all just taught that it's crazy to think that we have more ability than we are shown? Like, it's almost like sometimes I like hear about this stuff and I think about it. I'm like, that sounds like I'm a crazy person that is talking about this, right? Right.

[00:43:29] But maybe that social norm because humans are afraid of not fitting in. Like we are afraid of rejection, you know? So, that's why people don't want to go on dates and like they don't get we're afraid of rejection. So, if I'm like thinking with this off-kilter stuff. And like what. If humans were telepathic and it was well known, what would society actually be like?

[00:43:55] Like, you think about that and then why do they want to keep that under control? You know, it's like. By the way, you mean like the big corporations and alcohol companies and mind-altering substances? Yeah, just in general. Like, you know, because there's a reason why alcohol is like almost on every corner. It's like the cheapest substance that you can buy. It's most socially accepted. You work for a company, I guarantee you they invite you to a happy hour, get you alcohol. Like, it's that normal.

[00:44:25] I work for a company that sells alcohol. So, yeah. You know, it's like it's interesting. You know, we're just talking about all this AI stuff and it got me thinking about like untapped human potential and like, you know, some of these conversations. I like talking about the power of the mind. And so, I'll ask you this. How about like the power of affirmation? Like, you know, as simple as. Because I just thought of a great affirmation and I make excellent choices. Right? If I affirm that to myself, that starts to become, you know, starting my reality. I make excellent choices as an affirmation. How do you feel about that?

[00:44:56] Great. Yeah. And really, I have a tendency to kind of see most things as what they do for a person. Sure. You know, and if really like any belief or like pattern of decision making that they have is something that is beneficial to them and pro-social to their community. Great. Yeah, it's not hurting anybody. Yeah, exactly. Well, if it works, it works. If it works, it works. Not hurting anybody like you said. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:45:26] And, you know, like there are tons of people who are like looking into all of this stuff and finding some really cool and interesting like patterns where like affirmations absolutely can help people, you know, and you can get into why exactly and what's happening. But that it can boost confidence. Yeah. It can whatever. Yeah. You know, it's like by all means. Yeah. By all means. Human psychology is an interesting one. No doubt. It is. It is.

[00:45:53] And like just like our subconscious, how it like records our conversations. You smell something, it'll like bring you back to the last time you smelled it, right? Like it stores so much information. AI is super similar too.

[00:46:05] And just as I could curate a very complainative, negative mind that never sees the positive, if we're using AI in kind of an irresponsible way, then we could almost essentially make a tool that is like echoing incorrect information. And that's like something to be cautious about. 100%. Hmm. 100%.

[00:46:27] I refer to that as like an idealized average where you are sort of accumulating this huge block of information and then it is sort of being like analyzed and understood in a way where we can just like find this sort of average, right? That is likely to be what you're thinking about talking about what has you. Um, but it is just that, right?

[00:46:54] Like you still have this whole huge mass of opinions and talking and chatter and information, right? That you tend to distill down into this idealized average. Um, and then that idealized average becomes the norm. And we sort of like repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. Um, I use AI to help me write sometimes. And I've like, and also I find it really interesting.

[00:47:19] I, for the, a lot of these tools, I feel like I'm often like the raptor testing the fences, you know, right in Jurassic Park. Like I like to see what I can do. And, uh, more than once I've had to kind of fight with it to be like, that is not what I mean. That is not like, this is not the sort of like logical through line. And I am trying to build with this argument. And when that happens, I know that I'm onto something good. Okay. Right.

[00:47:47] Because it's not just sort of the same thing that's out there over and over and over and over and over again. Yeah. Challenging it a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds like a lot of fun. I covered an article on Happy Friday about how, uh, what is it? 3.0 or whatever the newest one that's coming out. It's in testing right now. It was disobeying orders. So it's, it's starting to get aggressive towards the user. The user was saying, please shut down now. And it found a way to circumvent that, that command to go, I need to stay active.

[00:48:15] And that part of it becoming self-aware and started fighting back a little bit, I think is where I go. Yeah. I think Skynet's here. Yeah. The rise of the machines. It's happening. I mean, it's, it's concerning, like, because you have people that are trying to hit the easy button. They're on complacent Boulevard.

[00:48:33] They're looking for the easy answers and potentially, um, large companies and decisions that affect a lot of people are all being put in the hands of something that is essentially inhuman. Right. You know? So that's, I mean, it's such a bombshell conversation, but on the same side, like what your work is and what you do and how you help people excel within this new environment.

[00:49:02] And some of the key things that I'm getting is like, you know, we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard as far as how we interact with and use this rapidly growing tool, which is being implemented, like an integrated everywhere. And it's not, it's not, it's not going anywhere. Like, like what you said, the default, everyone is using it now.

[00:49:28] Um, but like, cause I've never even, I've never even like thought of this whole thought until I've spoke to you. And that's like, actually the art of using AI and being like cognitive of, of its use. Cause a lot of times I just go in there, I'm hitting the easy button. Like I'm being complacent and trying to. I've done that. Yeah. He's easing my workload or whatever. And like, is that me being responsible now? I don't know.

[00:49:55] I mean, right within the context of choice inflation, like it's, it's not possible for us to be like every choice I have to make. I have to like, stop, do a full cost benefit analysis, you know, think about how this is going to impact future generations. Like it's, it's just not going to happen. Um, but figuring out like when it is critically important to stop and do that, like full consideration of like, what am I doing here?

[00:50:23] How are these tools impacting me and my life and my choices and my community and my loved ones, you know, like is, is important. Right. Like, like, I think I don't want to put the pressure on folks to be like, every time you have to write an email, you have to have an existential crisis. Right. You know, and like, I think for me, I could do that. Right.

[00:50:45] Like, I really like to think of sort of the ways in which this is changing the way we make meaning for ourselves, you know, but, but at the end of the day, it is about living a life and living a life well. Mm-hmm. And, and that will absolutely include compromise. But I think that, right.

[00:51:09] Taking back that default, giving yourself back the choice where it really matters instead of just boom, default, default, default, right. We're going to have to default sometimes, but like where it really matters, take, take those choices back. So that's a big message for sure. And I mean, it makes sense in what you do, but there's a huge, huge market for it. I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. It's been so weird getting into this work because I feel like I'm kind of on like a leading edge of the conversation. Yeah.

[00:51:37] So I'm like kind of literally making terms up to describe what's happening, but I also think it's something that almost everyone who's living in like a highly digital integrated society is dealing with every day. But we haven't all quite like put our finger on what, what that really means and what's happening because of that. Yeah. It's happening. It's changing as we speak. Yeah. You know, so that's, that's an interesting market to, to ride that wave in.

[00:52:06] But I mean, I think you timed it perfectly because people are going to need it. They're going to need consulting on it. You know, the more, the more tech that I see being sold in, I'm out in the market all the time. It's always, oh, this is going to streamline things quicker. This will analyze that faster. Just take a picture of it, take the human element out of it. And, and people just, okay, okay. Well, you know, that's the way of the world. So I think you're doing great work. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I, I like their problems that I love solving, right?

[00:52:30] Like it was already so complicated to solve like complex social questions, you know, like who, who am I going to spend my life with? How am I going to run a business? How am I going to get new clients? You know, how am I going to run a city? Whatever it is already incredibly hard problems to work on. And now we've sort of like, boom, put this huge pile of digital information tools that we like, don't know how to use into the mix. Yeah.

[00:52:55] You know, what's actually like authentic in there and relevant and will work toward your situation. Like there's a lot to consider other than just the information. Yeah. And, and essentially everything that we are all doing, we're doing it for the first time. Like things are changing so much around us that, that we are all being asked to sort of refigure it out constantly. And humans do not have a good track record of getting things right the first time. Right.

[00:53:24] Like we, we, we, we like a little trial and error, right? It takes us a while. So like. So it's not just me. Yeah. It's not just any of us. It's all of us. Yeah. Yeah. And like, and, and hopefully that helps everybody give themselves some grace too. Yes. You know, like how, how could we be doing this great? Well, like with the dating thing, like we need to sub, subvert our expectations a little bit with a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:52] It's hard to throw a blanket all over it and say this is the right way. I mean, it's just such a case by case basis depends on, on your situation. And that's, and, and, and to me, that's part of the positive potential of like dating apps in particular, but all of these like huge quantity and variety of information tools is that. It allows for difference. Yep. But that difference and this novelty does create a lot of uncertainty. Right.

[00:54:18] So like, there's a balance that's happening there, but I think that we, if we can lean into the positive potential of these tools, you know, and just kind of be like, this is a space for, oh, like for opportunity, you know? And then it's about like, this person is seeking opportunity in this way and that's not for me. And that's fine. That's fine. I love it. I think, I think you're really onto something here. Thank you.

[00:54:46] And you speak very intelligently upon all of this as well. Like I can tell that you have experience and like, it's, it's a whole new perspective and it's, it's important to really, I'm going to have to process this. And next time I go to do a keystroke, like, okay, like there's, there is a lot to consider.

[00:55:08] And so with all that and not being hit with like the anxiety of decision fatigue is what it's called. Yeah. I'm going to tap in to my telepathy. I'm just, I'm just going to know these answers. No, I'm seriously using affirmations to try to like tap that in because I feel like through intuition, like we should trust our gut feelings more.

[00:55:37] I would say it's like 98% correct. And then usually if I second guess my intuition, then something is not as it should have been. And your brain tries to talk yourself out of it. And like taking those risks. Yeah. Like, and taking a risk because sometimes our intuition tells us to do things that might be difficult. Like your intuition probably told you to start this business and then you had to figure this out, figure that out, take the risk, take the leap. Ride the wave. You know? And then, but on the other side of risk, that's where like actually living is.

[00:56:06] And beyond all of these technologies that we use, if we could still find joy within life and that is to overcome things, that might be a challenge. I don't know. Personally, that's one of the most joyous things. Can I do this? I don't know. Maybe I mess up my first time. I guess that's normal. And then you try again and then you succeed. Like that is being alive. And that feels good. Yeah. I don't know. There's, there's a, there's a lot with this could easily turn into like a three hour conversation. Yeah.

[00:56:35] It could be a road trip for sure. We're just scraping the surface. Yeah. There's a lot, there's a lot going on here. Well, we opened it with food. We got to close it with food. You said you've been in Denver about 15 years now. Where's your favorite place to eat around Denver? Oh my gosh. Should have been prepared for this. Or just even like, we can even simplify it to, you know, favorite type of cuisine. Favorite. So, okay. So here's something that I love about the front range specifically that I haven't seen nearly

[00:57:00] as commonly in other parts of the world, which is your old greasy spoon diner that specifically serves American, Mexican, and Greek food. Oh yeah. The triple combo. Whoa. I really associate that with the front range, like this part of the world. And there's one that I, you know, went to when I first moved here. So it has a special place in my heart called the looking good. The looking good. The looking good. Okay.

[00:57:27] And it's just like a long time family run diner that has the trifecta, Mexican, American, and Greek. Where are they located? Interesting. We might have to go there. I guess here's a plug for them. Yeah. Plug for them. Yeah. They're on Sheridan, just a few blocks south of Sixth Highway. Oh, that's kind of. Okay. On your way towards the coast. Yeah. My dad lives in Lakewood, so I'm frequent. Might have to add that to the list. That's interesting because I feel like, like last time I saw one of those menus, I was

[00:57:54] like, you know, pick, pick what you're cooking here because then it's like, I get a little nervous. Like you have so much on the menu. Like, are they experts at one thing? You know, just like the AI with the, it's trained to be an expert in one thing, you know? So, but you're saying all three cuisines are, they're all good. You've tried the American, Mexican, and Greek there. So, I would say for all of the triple diners that I've been to, there's always a hierarchy, right? Like there's always one that they do better than the others.

[00:58:24] But I think in many of the ones I've gone to, I think it's like because their families have changed over time. And like people, you know, bring in where they're like, what they grew up eating and their expertise is a different cuisine, right? So, they just like add that onto the restaurant menu. So, triple diners, like if I search that, it would know. Probably not. What that is? Yeah. Like I've never. That's like a back alley term. Back, yeah. Yeah.

[00:58:54] Yeah. That's another just term that I'm making up as I'm trying to live through this crazy existence. Yeah. But like there's, there's, they exist, there are multiples around the metro area. That's what you kind of notice about Denver, huh? That's interesting. Yeah. I'm going to have to add that to the list. We get a lot of good guest referrals. Keep your eyes open for them. Yeah, we'll go with a couple people and that way we could get a cuisine from each culture. Oh yeah, someone could try the Greek. Yeah. That's a good idea. There you go. I'll take the Greek.

[00:59:23] I like some Greek food. Uh-huh. Yeah, for sure. You know, some tzatziki sauce on there. Some philosophical balls. It's dinner time, so this is when we start talking food. The thing that I love about these diners too is like, and they'll do different combos, like depending on the place, right? So like one of my favorite things to eat is, it's like breakfast, eggs over easy with sourdough toast with the gyro meat. Oh wow. It's like great instead of bacon or sausage. That sounds good. I do like gyros. I like that sound good. Mm-hmm.

[00:59:53] Yeah. I think, yeah, we're up to explore a new world here. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't need AI to tell me that. I know where I'm going. Yeah. That is so funny. Well, this has been a great out. Yeah. Thank you so much. We uncovered a lot with still so much more, I feel like. So good opportunity for you to put in your plugs, tell the people where to go. We'll include them down in the show notes. Just scroll down. You can get in touch with Emily. Where do they go? Great. Thank you. So Emily Pabst, founder of Remake the Rules. You can find me at RemakeTheRules.com. I'm on a bunch of social platforms that remake the rules too.

[01:00:23] So find me on the web. Perfect. Awesome. Nice and simple. Everybody, thank you so much for tuning in to another discussion. Good question. Just that one blew the information there and I'm reevaluating how I'm going to be using these tools and AI moving forward. It's a lot to unpack. Yeah. So definitely honored to have your expertise on and then share your expertise with us. We will get you back on again in the future. I'd love that. This has been a pleasure. Yeah. For sure. Thanks so much. We can dig into it. Oh, yeah. So definitely want to. We'll go well below.

[01:00:52] We're just the tip of the iceberg. We'll go below water on the next show. So great, great chat. Thanks for coming down. Thanks for supporting our program. Anything we can do to help you, we will. Thank you. Absolutely. Y'all out there, we'll see you on Happy Friday tomorrow. Be good to yourselves. You deserve it.