[00:00:00] This podcast is powered by the Plug. And that is that! So that's the intro tune today. And I have Raven in the studio today. And I'm gonna let Raven just take the mic for a second and let you know about pronouns
[00:00:55] and existing as they do. Take it away, Raven. Hi, I'm Raven. My pronouns are they them. And like what else just one talk about of who they are? I think I like to be known as a creative individual
[00:01:12] and a super happy individual. I love joy. I love being happy. I think it was really brilliant to speak to the space of how we met. Because it was very serendipitous for this very amazing way of how we've moved into learning about each other. And
[00:01:42] I think this is actually the second time that we're third time we're hanging in person. Yeah, yeah. So it was at this space here where artists come together and work in Denver. I'm not gonna reveal
[00:01:56] the location stalkers anyway. And it was a pretty interesting connection through another person. And before we knew it, the other person wasn't even part of the conversation that's how quickly we just were like, whoa, you exist. I exist. It was so profound.
[00:02:14] Immediately in your earnest energy and your willingness to just sit in each other's joy is really what resonated that was like, we need to hang out like a sat yesterday. And so now here we are
[00:02:30] in a little podcast room. But what I just in meeting in the artistry land of it all, then I was blessed with the opportunity to go to your studio and see what you create. And if there's one thing
[00:02:46] that I've always been working towards is body positivity for non-binary folks. I think it's a very valuable space. And when you find it in someone that is embracing bodies, just in general, like, this is a body. And you really, I had been struggling without you understanding maybe that
[00:03:09] about myself as like, yes, I come off as this joyous ball of energy. And at the same token, we still live in a society where non-binary people just really almost don't belong anywhere.
[00:03:21] And that sense of belonging, not just in being a fellow non-binary person, but your art form and how you exist is just so inclusive that quite literally I could just sit here and talk to you all
[00:03:37] day. So, I don't want to talk at you or to you. I want you to tell us just what has inspired you and brought about your artistry form as I perceive it to be embracing bodies and acknowledging
[00:03:53] and giving space for that existence to be seen. What prompted or brought this about for you? I, well, I had always wanted to be an artist, but solely for the lifestyle.
[00:04:09] I grew up under a professional artist myself who my dad and he grew up under a professional artist as well. And, but I didn't see a lot of art, actually I talk about living in an art desert.
[00:04:26] I was not exposed to art as a child, this outside of my parents, my father's art. And I always had a desire to draw bodies and I love, I love naked bodies, I just assume.
[00:04:43] Like, I all of the shapes and forms and folds and non-folds and all of those things. So, I didn't get into making art about bodies until much later because I didn't know how to draw them.
[00:05:01] So, I had one formal training class where I or two, it was two different classes. One was really structured and I was drawing from life. And, like I remember one model her name was
[00:05:17] Teksheney and she had a landing strip and it was amazing and she had a belly too. And I got to draw her over a number of days and to still have the drawing and it was really special and it ignited
[00:05:34] in me how I wanted to draw bodies. But I also was aware I was drawing a specific person. So, it showed me that I could draw bodies because they aren't really scary to draw.
[00:05:47] Because they are fluid. There is nothing structured about a body and then I went into another formal class and the first day the teacher, I think her name was Vivian. Yeah and she had messy dark black hair that was curly and she had a voluptuous body.
[00:06:12] I remember that about her and her spirit was really attractive to me. And we're doing charcoal drawings of the people that were posing for us and I pulled out my eraser because I
[00:06:28] had a line I didn't like and she chucked it out the door. And that was the first day of this figure drawing class and I was like oh shit okay. And in that class it just ignited the
[00:06:45] like how I could use my body to draw bodies if that makes sense. There was there was an energy and a dance that happened and drawing so earnestly. And with the materials I was using charcoal which breaks very easily and smears so quickly and newsprint which yellows very
[00:07:05] quickly and deteriorates more so than other papers. And then I stopped drawing for 11 years. Okay, so I had to rubbed in and I had some shit go down. And then I came back to making our as a serious person and like I was like okay no I really
[00:07:27] I think I am an artist not just for the lifestyle but in my heart and soul and I have to figure out how to do this. So I am self-taught, I had those two classes but I don't that were impactful and I thought well
[00:07:44] I got to skill up here. Yeah and so I started painting birds and it was really fun and then I started doing these like kind of contemporary portraiture and those were fun but they were not
[00:07:56] what I knew was like placed deep in and what I really wanted to talk about which was actually sex and eroticism and bodies and gender and sexuality and you know the juiciness of bringing
[00:08:14] bodies together or being alone with your own body. Yeah and so I taught myself how to draw and have to come back to the super quick. Oh yes I'm going to come back as a self-taught person
[00:08:28] and like you were saying you know growing up in an artistry that you were you know that was just in the vernacular that you were viewing as a young person what would you say as the young person that
[00:08:43] you were just only seeing what you were to who you are now. What would your younger self say to how you've chosen yourself now? Oh my gosh let me think um let I ask that question again so
[00:09:02] just being surrounded and only the representation that you had and now to like because I saw when you were talking then I stopped drawing for 11 years you know so you go through multiple
[00:09:14] growing ups right? Yeah and so it's like from that from that time where you started drawing birds and you were trying to figure out how can I harness you know how can I harness and what would you say
[00:09:25] as the young person that you were only getting the representation that you were what would you say to that version of your adult self moving into what you were? I like my younger self to my adult
[00:09:40] I would say high-visal in awe and I would say you're you're um I guess an inspiration I had no idea that I could be this person as a young as a young person. I did not have representation
[00:10:00] in queroness, in my identities and I would say definitely art history is a portion of my identity I did not see that representation as a young person and if I had me to look up now
[00:10:15] I feel like blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah like you're good guys. Yeah, like so brilliant friend. Yeah it would be brilliant. It would be pretty
[00:10:27] phenomenal to see that. So then pushing into now you're like harnessing in I want to draw bodies and all of this and as you know anyone coming up from that era you know I'm nearing 40
[00:10:40] you're in your last 30s. There's nine. Come on boo. That'd be birthday. But you know it's like this whole new birth era that we're going into you know like yeah I am now this representation
[00:10:53] to myself as this artist that I am not putting limits on and I now have a dynamic that allows me to in part like be a representation not just for community but the family ship that I create,
[00:11:08] the chosen family and so moving in from a space of like not almost probably having like autonomy with your body to claiming full autonomy and giving people permission to have autonomy. We need permission sometimes because it our bodies never been ours and so walking into your
[00:11:30] studio and I didn't mean to interrupt this whole time because we're gonna go back but walking into your studio and just seeing the definition of what it means to be fluid is how I felt walking in there
[00:11:43] immediately and none of it was a hyper sexualization space at all. It was the most comfortable I ever felt just like holy shit like can you draw me because I feel that comfortable because you know
[00:11:58] you're not seeing from the eye of this predator you know you really like brought awareness to like how my moral compass is changing to the safety of expression in our bodies because I've always
[00:12:15] tried to be like okay non-binary body positivity and it can still teet or on a level of having hyper sexuality attached to it because as non-binary folks we do get fetishized for our bodies
[00:12:29] for like being the best of both worlds or neither of the worlds and in blah blah blah and you just allow me to exist as my own world going in there and that's what I felt so that's what
[00:12:39] I wanted to tell you so that's beautiful. That's that's exciting to hear that's definitely what I hope for the hoping is over you achieved it now continue telling us about your experience why
[00:12:54] just like that you want to hone in more into this drawing and you got your eraser thrown out because you can't delete that scribble. Yeah the immediacy of drawing like that that's when you capture
[00:13:06] the energy of moving drawing yeah I wanted to draw like I am today which I feel really really humbled by that I do get to do this and also I would say I'm in awe of the skills that I taught myself
[00:13:22] I've learned a lot through that of like how capable we are as individuals or as like in ourselves when seeking out what we need and what we want to do. Again I also recognize
[00:13:37] where I live and the privilege I have to chase after what's in my heart and seek autonomy the way that I do but I think that as a young child I can't not have this conversation without
[00:13:52] the conversation of sex so as a young child I was really sexual and I loved that part of myself and in my art it is not hyper sexualized at all but it is about bodies and in pleasure
[00:14:07] and in love and so coming into that space I had a breakthrough piece that was actually about masturbating and that was about a year ago and that's when I found what I was drawing like that's
[00:14:22] when I arrived in the the hopes and dreams that I had as a person thinking you know looking at all these other artists and they're so accomplished I'll never be able to do that but really it's what
[00:14:36] I wanted to do I knew what I wanted to create and I thought there is no way I will ever access that and so year and a half ago creating that piece it was it was wild yeah I was like oh shit like
[00:14:50] I got here and I wouldn't say that I've arrived because I've learned now especially in my queerness and seeking autonomy I will never arrive right oh like I just get to get to the edge
[00:15:08] yeah I always get to keep going yeah just edging you know always always on an evolution and so I know my art will also do that but drawing what I do now is it is really fluid and even the
[00:15:29] way that I create my art is completely fluid and and so drawing getting to this point has just been incredible I guess that's the best way I can say it you know it is incredible I like stars in my eyes
[00:15:46] I walk into my studio I just feel humbled by everyday to think I get to come in here and I get to draw like like bodies I don't know it's an as an vagindic and like all kinds of stuff
[00:16:00] stay really amazing but the representation that you do it with and the earness heart that you're doing it with is like the education that we were always denied you know even speaking to the piece
[00:16:11] of masturbation you know growing up at the way that I did in the nurture that I did it was very like that was not a thing that you did you know so like when fried green tomatoes came out they're all
[00:16:24] giggling looking at their vaginas and stuff in a mirror whatever suggesting that and movies and you see that and I'm like wow I've never been in touch with that side that's foreign to me again
[00:16:33] the autonomy is lost because abuse is involved and that identity or that willingness to want to connect with that is gone because it's you know that's your privates if they're mine then why are
[00:16:44] they public for someone else and so oh yeah the conditioning is yeah yeah so I will even speak this is super like here you all go um I didn't actually self pleasure until my mid 20s I actually
[00:16:59] remember the very first time that I openly did in immediate like regret swept over me I felt like I cheated on my partner I felt like I did the biggest sinful thing I cried afterwards
[00:17:15] I was like this is embarrassing like I still didn't even I couldn't tune into my body right and it was just like a very scary moment I remember and then I didn't for the longest time and then
[00:17:29] there are expression or ways that I've had to I don't want to say unlearn I don't like unlearning something I'm just redefining what those definitions were disguised as to me before so the self pleasure realm is definitely something I've been a lot more curious about nearing 40 I'm like
[00:17:50] Milabito ain't going anywhere and it's not that I want to do anything about it like oh just like you need to release and that and there's like there's actually a beautiful read recently sent it
[00:18:02] there's a beautiful freedom in being able to explore your own body and I think that drawing is like one of the most profound ways of going about it that way that you do it because there's like you know
[00:18:18] maybe there's not always a head or all these eyes and the whole facial feature attached to it it's just the figure portion and so I don't know you've just just to speak to even to the
[00:18:30] self pleasure land is a person that I be only identifying thing I knew about myself was that I was female because of like the abuse and just the systematic way that we grow up and then the older I got
[00:18:42] there was like oh my goodness like there's a lot more self pleasure that's involved it's sounds it's texture it's not just like rubbing it out and moving on there's a whole sensuality that I get to like
[00:18:56] set myself up for and I'm not hyper sexualizing myself I'm sitting in basking in every little layer of the pleasure that I'm backing off and then I'm giving more and it's like the most
[00:19:06] beautiful way that I've gotten to settle in and discover myself now and also my non-negotiables like oh gosh okay that's a little aggressive for me or hey actually you can take this a bit
[00:19:18] further because I'm safe with myself yeah you know that representation that we didn't have we are for ourselves now and so the countenance in the space that we're existing in our self pleasure is a room
[00:19:29] of yourself exposing yourself to yourself and sometimes it is scary but you have set a really good precedence for folks to be able to embody the body that they are without actually knowing that you're
[00:19:43] giving them permission to fully look at themselves yeah so sorry I just had to go with that because when you talk about self pleasure that's been such a taboo topic for me for so long and I just love
[00:19:56] that that's the thing that brought you to like your own awareness with yourself yeah yeah it was also a taboo subject for me I was taught how to do it extremely young and yeah it's a global abuse
[00:20:09] was present and it was never safe for me it was always wrapped up in in like trauma around of those things and I'm really late what we talked about this late in life yeah show up when I do okay yeah
[00:20:23] yeah I showed up you know really not so long ago in that of understanding the the pleasure of my body and actually I think when I'm drawing it's also I taught I joke around about this but I
[00:20:37] say like I'm just jacking off in my studio all the time it feels that good I get high as a kite in there just off of like making something you know so not not even drug and doost just like the
[00:20:54] dopamine that hits when I'm drawing the things that I do and it is a very central experience for me drawing is and and I know the subjects I'm drawing because in a lot of times I draw I draw the
[00:21:10] people in my life that I'm having sex with and and I mean personally I like to call it making love with because I know they're really they're really not it's not just an action and in my drawings I do
[00:21:25] worship the body just like I like to when I'm with somebody or when I'm with myself like like there is a true worship happening there that I absolutely love and but doing the I don't know I
[00:21:42] I love that what you said about masturbation it's an art form it is it was very uncomfortable for me to step into that place but had I not again as a non-binary person there's a lot of space where
[00:21:59] we're just told that you're the best of both worlds or we're neither and we're such a mystery and a lot of times I'd end up with or choose those that identify as a pillow princess
[00:22:14] because the reciprocation was terrifying to me I didn't want to guide someone how to pleasure me that conversation and that also just originates I believe a lot of times like kind of in a
[00:22:27] religious way that a woman or people that are viewed as women are just there for the male pleasure peace so in order for me to tune into myself I had to make masturbation a practice you know and
[00:22:40] it wasn't always like my end goal isn't to be like oh shit like with beyond the edge that's never the goal the goal is to tune into myself and let that conversation exist within my body
[00:22:53] and I never could have that conversation because there were so many people telling me how I identify no you're this you're that and so I would live under that preconceived notion you know and that
[00:23:04] pleasure just wasn't going to be a thing and then not to mention even though I have a problem with the phrase is so genius but the person wrote the book I'm not in agreement with but the body does keep
[00:23:17] the score in certain instances you know and so I didn't realize that there were even times with like a partner that I would tense up or I wouldn't allow a reciprocation I wouldn't allow certain things because I was protecting myself so hence I wasn't pleasureing I was perpetuating
[00:23:37] the disconnect and so making masturbation an actual like educational course for myself I finally really started to understand the attachment in the abandonment and what it means to identify as non-binary like when I make love to myself I don't go with the intention that like okay
[00:24:00] I don't even know how to talk about it because it's just like I didn't I don't go with it in that intention of like you know gendering myself it's just like it like sound can literally
[00:24:11] take me beyond the edge you know and so I got to take those limiting things and make them limit lists for myself but had I not self-pleasured and studied my own pleasure pieces and the things that
[00:24:25] helped me feel that autonomy within myself I wouldn't be an active listening lover now because I wasn't actively listening to my own body before I didn't know how to tell a person like that's
[00:24:40] uncomfortable I would just fake it and move on you know because I didn't want them to feel embarrassed but in reality I'm gonna just you're gonna go to the next person and do that same thing
[00:24:50] because we're not tuning in so I'm just just to just say all that is like we didn't have that education system that it's okay to it's okay to venture in and dive into what this body function is
[00:25:03] and the gender piece was always like okay like yeah guys we're just gonna do that they're after one thing and then the the girls it's like protect that thing what are you wearing to not protect it
[00:25:16] you know what I mean and so that was the representation I grew up with so even when I went into my own self-pleasure place I was like sexualizing myself instead of like easing into something
[00:25:28] I was like thinking about like oh the reaction I would get if I'd show my tits a certain way or something because I had no idea how to tap into what my sensuality was and so again just like
[00:25:41] this conversation is so brilliant so anyway outside of the whole masturbation thing which is brilliant give it a whirl you know there's a lot of good reads out there but your body is gonna be the number one
[00:25:50] read so tune in listen actively then just with the art that you put alongside it with the words like you have a lot of describing words around things and permission words is really beautiful
[00:26:05] you mean how I describe my art yeah yeah it's so profound because I think a lot of people are gonna be more like oh god that could be celacious or that's the law but the way that it's so
[00:26:20] elegant it's just so elegant and it's I don't like saying it's the simplicity of it the lines being in there yeah and it's just angelating with desire to learn versus you know I know what I'm
[00:26:44] bringing to the table but I'm gonna do this thing you know it's a way that you allow a person to take a second pause even having that conversation with you in a room that represented bodies and
[00:26:58] I'm not just talking like okay here's the chest you can't decide it's coming from a non-binary artist that like the illusion is there you know it is what it is gonna be to you it doesn't it
[00:27:09] doesn't have to be you know this might have this figure might have tips and they're non-binary this person may have a flat chest and they're a woman you know it was it's so beautiful so I'm
[00:27:21] sorry just had to give you some honor words to how you go about that thank you yeah I think even when I draw it I actually I have no idea what these gender these people are and there is a choice
[00:27:34] and not showing faces in it that's something that was really important to me because the person looking at it is the face right like they're gonna look at the bodies oh wait say that one more
[00:27:45] time the the person looking at the art they will be the faces of the pieces and they will give faces to the bodies and I hear that a lot people come in and I say all that looks like my body
[00:27:59] or oh I've loved that kind of body and you know exactly who this is about and if I were to put a face on it it would become someone else right right I want to like remove these things like really
[00:28:14] these features that we look at constantly and bring it down to the body which which honestly we don't get us enough time wow I sometimes don't feel like I get enough looking at naked bodies
[00:28:27] like I'm always like let's just be naked like I can stare at how gorgeous you are but so they the removal of those identifiers are so that people can walk up to a piece and
[00:28:41] I and place identities on it that they need to you know and when I draw them there are sometimes I use the bodies like some of them are of bodies of my lovers or the people that I have
[00:28:55] desired or you know and sometimes it's my body that I put into these drawings and so to me they mean something but the second I am done making it it is no longer mine and it becomes whoever connects
[00:29:10] with the piece and whatever story it means to them and of course I always put like little like my kinky pieces those those always find the best people and I love drawing kinky pieces
[00:29:24] because of the conversations that happen they are the most beautiful conversations and I hear about scenes and like it's it's wonderful but the the drawings for me are and I don't know they might
[00:29:40] have a gender at one moment and then I let it go it's really about because I can't say even when I am with myself or with somebody else or interacting with bodies I don't and I can't say that
[00:29:53] I'm thinking about them as a gender right you know I know that that the people I interact with when when our bodies come to together we do identify as one way like I am non binary I'm not
[00:30:09] genderless my self-body identify as trans non binary and so but that all gets stripped away for me in a way and like we just become you know bodies right but I'm completely and early fascinated by
[00:30:27] them and in love with them and want to spend a long time drawing them and you know giving people spaces to put those up I get a question about where do I hang this in my home because sometimes they can be
[00:30:41] they're not overt but they can't be sexy and I always say well I don't know hanging it over one you can hang it in a quiet space if you want some privacy with it or if it's a special piece to you
[00:30:53] but it's also like hanging above your mantle that people know who they're walking in you know like that's in a more sex positive way but absolutely you know it's like I don't know when somebody walks
[00:31:05] in my house I know somebody who does this I want them to see volvas and what they're walking into yeah yeah so that that is an interesting concept of gender and the bodies I'm drawing
[00:31:21] I keep finding this with and this seems off topic but this is kind of interesting because you know we grew up with like oh those are your private parts some show you know and then you
[00:31:33] realize the age that you're like too old to be showering with your mom or something anymore and I'm like okay I'm not even really showering I'm just getting dribbles off of your 80s bush and that's what
[00:31:45] I'm lathering up to I think it's time that I chose have my own shower you know but I think what ended up happening a lot is there's a lot of shame like okay like I'm not like I can't see
[00:31:56] you naked anymore you're growing up you know and it's just like but there's no explanation like I'm still in a childhood mindset but now and then we don't talk about that and then all of the
[00:32:07] sudden you know like boobs are happening or the things are dropping you know and there is an conversation piece and like I grew up with a brother and he you know I'm gonna expose something
[00:32:25] he doesn't listen to myself anyway but I caught him masturbating one time and I felt so weird about it I had never seen it I just saw something weird was happening it was secret it was quiet you know
[00:32:37] it was a very vulnerable thing and I remember telling my dad and he went and talked to my brother the convert there was a conversation and then I don't even understand I don't even know I've since asked
[00:32:48] my dad and he was like I think just as talking about like you know you're gonna be curious about touching yourself and it'd be respectful but there's never a conversation around like if there's
[00:32:56] an urge or things like that and like what the functionality or anything like there was just no conversation around you know being safe around other people like you don't do that so
[00:33:09] because of that there was like boundary crossing you know with the sibling and then when it was discovered that I was like really curious looking at myself one day which kept me from looking at
[00:33:21] myself the older I got I got beat for that like I got in severe trouble my mom walked in and I was like observing my whole world of area and she was more defied and could not understand why I
[00:33:34] was doing that and I got in trouble but I so just across the board you know I saw that like my brother didn't get demonized for what he was discovering and I did so I must be the sin so
[00:33:49] you know in sin coming from that religious pretense so then even further growing up and I just it's also because my parents didn't have the tools well they weren't sharpening the
[00:33:59] tools that they had they were just like that's how it is to this day like my dad has a really big issue being around myself and my two younger siblings who identify as female for now
[00:34:13] um in bathing attire like he can't he he gets so weird and skiddish and he puts his head down like I he had to stop following me on social media because of my body positivity it's he doesn't
[00:34:25] understand it and he just thinks like well you shouldn't do that but he'll be the same guy to be out in public and somebody fully club club covered or cloth could have a nice figure and he'll
[00:34:36] make a weird remark to another guy about it you know and it's so taboo and this like it's so interesting so I just think that these conversations around bodies are so essential because the
[00:34:49] lack of conversation literally has me and my siblings in an awkward way around our dad and not some mention that you know my mom had a very traumatic childhood that she can't recognize she has
[00:35:05] DID and so that perpetuated a lot of things that you know what she went through and then it closed off which would have been educational so we didn't indeed indeed suffer the same way you know
[00:35:18] and so then we were delivered to our abusers and you knew what was going on and then you shame does for like showing a little skin in front of our dad and I'm talking about like the skin being
[00:35:27] a tank top half the time and and it just perpetuating all of that because you know we were trying to find comfort in our bodies and we weren't allowed to like the the female female identifying
[00:35:41] piece wasn't allowed to the male piece was and there was a lot of excuses for it but um so yeah just to speak to that if you like as the young version of self that you were and arriving
[00:35:54] whenever you're fucking arrived to the awakenings that we all go through in the different versions of ourselves that we're always going to be um as well as these identifying pieces and being
[00:36:05] non-binary in the brilliance and what it is to be able to be in the space that allows us to embrace our identities even though it can be really hard and we're misgendered every day
[00:36:17] um what is the most what is the safest space for you to know that you are always going to fully embody yourself where do you find that safe space like for me I'd like to be around my plants
[00:36:39] because there's no gender to me in that and I just get to exist with them and dance and stem all the time and that's my safe space and the expression of my body um and not gendering it like I'm
[00:36:51] just this is what I am but in your art form as well as like your chosen family and the non-chosen family what has become the safe space for you not only to find and exist there safely
[00:37:08] but to allow others to be in that with you I think I have a weird experience in the safe space of being fully in who I am and it's actually out in the world but not in a sense of where I'm
[00:37:24] interacting with people okay this is this is where I will admit sometimes I'm a bad feminist I love it and because one I do like to dress I like if I could take off more clothes winter sucks
[00:37:42] like can you cannot show a toe yeah I can't show I have a 38 person orgy my leg and I'm like I need people to know I am I am like sex positive and I'm not afraid of my sexuality and
[00:38:00] being visible is actually my safest space and so it's really kind of strange I don't think that's strange at all and this is really my truth but I don't mind being cat called even it helps me feel in
[00:38:16] my body which I know is really and I'm feel very fortunate that I have not been harmed in the world I have in actually close safe relationships is where I was sexually abused I have not received that
[00:38:31] walking down the street so I also know I have a false sense of safety and I think it kind of sounds familiar yeah walking down the street but I I think when I'm out in the world and I'm dressing
[00:38:48] how I want which is sometimes like I like to show a lot of skin I like people to see me and have I like to be different I guess and in the world no one is generally when you're walking down the street
[00:39:04] has a reason to talk to me and misgender me or I just get to exist and walk by someone I feel safe this then which is really strange that is strange like that's when because I'm anonymous but
[00:39:19] I know I look different you know I know that I mean there's plenty of us that are covered in tattoo right and look queer and things like that but I feel like then I'm just out in the world and I'm
[00:39:32] being seen but I wasn't seen a lot as a child and I think that's why I felt I feel really good when I get to be seen I was really I was always in the background I was always like having to
[00:39:47] do shit on my own while everybody else got taken care of and yeah so I feel like that's good and I think for others I have a little person a child in my life and for them I want them to know
[00:40:04] you get to show up in the world how you are and being a weirdo is difficult I did not have an easy go as a child because I was it was odd I dressed odd you know and all those things and so
[00:40:20] now as an adult I do want to show you like you get to be you and colorful and joyful and walk down the street and dance it out because Gloria at Stefan is like playing over the
[00:40:32] coffee you know and you're like swimming a bustling out here and so I want others to see that they get to do that too out in the world you know so that would be my my safest weird non safe space
[00:40:51] actually I don't want to say that's non safe because you're also that probably is like also what drew me to you is you just existing as you do and it's not like oh gosh it's all shameless or anything
[00:41:04] you're just out there in your joy in the abundance that is your joy and it shows me that your joy isn't rooted with anyone it's with yourself and people enhance that so it feels safe you know
[00:41:18] I think I have a sense of a sense of fall safety sometimes myself because for the same very valid reasons not getting to exist in the ways that we're comfortable to me I had to be very outward in ways
[00:41:31] that weren't in a masking sense and so a lot of times like sometimes I need to have that existence of being outside of myself observing myself being its fullest self with myself removed a little bit
[00:41:45] you know totally like a full-videar complex like I want to dress up to go for a walk but I'm not trying to get attention from anyone but myself yeah yeah that sounds crazy like I love to dress
[00:41:59] my body and show my body and it is for me and I can't it like I said like I don't mind a cat call I look good so because I think we all want to be seen and that's important but I feel seen
[00:42:12] then and I think for me through a trans lens of I have um it's really hard not to dress up the way that I need right like clothing is very important to me and how I present myself and and it can be
[00:42:33] totally just like rip me apart if I'm having to dress a different way right you know and I think that trans people can understand this oh I can only get it coming from the cult life you know
[00:42:49] where they look like not the lower angles look bad but it was the not the 1800s anymore yeah yeah and when I was a kid it was I still wanted to dress like oh man if they had crop tops again
[00:43:02] and school when I was a kid maybe they did but I didn't have access to it but I remember I couldn't wear spaghetti straps because the same it was distracting and um to to boys and I was like
[00:43:14] well I want to wear spaghetti straps because what if I like to be distracting you know that was when it was like really strange as a kid as I was like fine then I want to put them in that uncomfortable
[00:43:27] oh okay I was the power to say no you know and I will that made me feel so powerful it was like I will look damn good and then I will tell you know and that was so empowering to me you know
[00:43:42] but it but I wasn't allowed to do that a lot of times or people would say I was too sexualized as you know it was just like am I or are we just afraid of young humans coming into their
[00:43:56] and how it makes adults feel right you know and that consent is like not actually okay and growing up in a feminized body and how I had to present myself then was really complicated you
[00:44:14] know yeah absolutely but yeah now still yeah I say how little clothing can one get away with you know I'm talking like a sticker and it be okay yeah yeah you know and that's like one thing
[00:44:28] that I got to experience last just this last year um I got to model for red ball which was this you know through Denver Health and it was like awareness around AIDS which we still need awareness
[00:44:45] around y'all it's exist still and so I got to be part of that and it was the first time ever that I got to just like be in my body and so I literally modeled I had um just like this red
[00:45:01] red and black leather sleeved jacket thing but it was wide open and I just got to wear you know some little nipple covers because it's you know whole things still but like nobody sexualized me in that
[00:45:14] moment like I'm sure that there's always instances but the body positivity outshined that that I literally got to just be in my body as a physical being without the whole gender construct and everything and the way that people responded to that was like I had so many people
[00:45:35] that day were like thank you that was so inspiring like whoa oh my gosh like I feel like I can do that now you know and yes and a lot of times like yes I still have I'm not a person that has any
[00:45:49] part of my body that I want to change or deconstruct and reconstruct um a more of that is rooted within the fear of the medical system um I don't want to be the exception to the rule where
[00:46:04] something goes gravely wrong and a being experiment because that's kind of what a lot of us folks kind of are at times and so I think it's so beautiful those that um have the support
[00:46:18] the ability the will and they make it through and they are their fullest most brilliant vibrant selves that's just not my path and so a lot of times even in the queer community I think we were talking
[00:46:30] about this a little earlier was that I get a little bit more respect in a gender terminology and gender acceptance in like straight you know folks allyships then I do directly in the queer community
[00:46:50] I've been told to make up my mind um I've been told like aren't you going to transition because being non-binary is just a stepping stone to the next space and even though society sees that these
[00:47:03] are breasts it's my chest this is my chest and I'm comfortable with it and I don't want to have to do something in order to societally fit a norm so I can just have my shirt off
[00:47:21] I can do that at my home all fucking day but like the desires there I'd love to go outside and be safe and have my shirt off because we're not topless we're shirtless we all have a chest
[00:47:35] and I would love the safety in that but our society doesn't have safety like that set up for us but I don't want to go and change my body to fit the societal norm to be safe outside
[00:47:52] and I think that because there isn't an education around sex positivity body positivity in none of these in general that there are instances that I think our grave decisions are being made on
[00:48:05] our bodies to fit into the societal norm versus like I really feel and this is only because I've had people tell me this I'm not yucking anyone's young but I've had young people that have done
[00:48:17] you know top surgery and they regret it because now they are subject to this pain and this thing that they're going through and they're like I wish that I would have just known someone
[00:48:28] like you before that embraces your body because I still it's not safe for me to have my shirt off but I did this so I could have my shirt off and it's just this whole shitty dichotomy that we're in
[00:48:39] that people like you that are making these body positive statements and body positivity like sex positivity and kink positivity and things that we all needed representation to so that we don't change so much about our body without being more educated about it first
[00:49:07] you know like and we all have body dysphoria like do you think I want these titties every day? no when I'm on my period I'm so outraged that they are bigger than they were before
[00:49:18] and it's uncomfortable and it hurts and there's not you know clothing that's made to support this it's to enhance it you know and it's just things like that um that I just wish that there was
[00:49:30] more language around and you know and just even not identifying with you know what happens to uterus owners every month and we do have these periods and then it's this balance like okay
[00:49:41] well the suffering is there like my period is so bad it's you know I have endometriosis and so it's debilitating and I still have to go function in society and you know and so just the language
[00:49:56] that you're choosing gets me to see the language in just your ethereal way of existing and drawing alongside of it you're not just drawing with pen you're drawing with words you're drawing
[00:50:09] attention to so there's many forms in which your art is existing and I just wish that I had met someone like you even 15 20 years ago because I don't think that my transition there was never a
[00:50:21] transition to being non-binary I just learned that the word existed I didn't become non-binary I've always been yeah but I think a lot of people are like you know in you do have to
[00:50:36] transition if the body that you were mistakenly put into there is a transition but the body that I'm and I'm just so uncertain of it still that I just you know I've just always been non-binary the
[00:50:50] least of my concerns is the gender portion of me and then I don't want to seem dismissive like I feel like post-binary half the time because I just don't want to care about it anymore because
[00:51:00] I misgendered the people around me or treated like shit it is a societal you know a systematic fucking setting for us to divide us all into blame people on your attitude sucks you must be on
[00:51:13] your period oh you're just a boy you're always horny you need to get some you know like just normalizing that shitty behavior you know I just wish that I had someone like you to look up to I became my own
[00:51:29] representation but I still didn't have the language I needed and I remember the first time ever hearing non-binary and I was like wait but we are there that's an expression and were that I never
[00:51:42] was like oh I've discovered I'm non-binary and I'm transitioning into that you always are you know in a fluid space of getting to educate yourself in it I realized that I always was that but I didn't
[00:51:53] have the language and so just in you having the positivity of what you've created with the within your drawing and how you are and show up as yourself has given me more just more like fire to
[00:52:10] exist as I do and to know that I do have a safe space that I am a safe space and that I am drawing more safe spaces but just brings me to this topic of pronouns are so fucking important
[00:52:24] and maybe if they're not important to you it doesn't mean that it doesn't incite violence to another person that has never been seen and just wants a moment of being seen if you can memorize your friend's
[00:52:37] name and their birthday and then also memorize their handle on Instagram and their email and their little their other little alter ego you can remember a person's fucking pronouns. Enough of copying out like oh I just always do that I'm messing up that's not fair enough is enough
[00:52:56] you hold me accountable to all these other things but when it comes to pronouns and what is important for me to be certain to be seen as well as know that you actively listen to me that I'm a person
[00:53:07] that even exists in your world I deserve the respect of my pronouns they're not preferred they're my pronouns sorry just had to get on there. Have you ever feel about pronouns tell me
[00:53:20] about it friend? I feel very similar you know I don't think I know some folks that pronouns like within the community that pronouns aren't as important or and I think it's all individual
[00:53:34] like really we're just talking about like he was an individual how can I show up to support you right and for me my pronouns are really important it helps me um well when I'm just misgendered all the time
[00:53:49] and I do love also your conversation of by of being non-binary all along um I actually just want to make a note that have you heard I'm sure you have about putting out a picture of yourself as a child
[00:54:09] I sometimes I sleep with a picture of my self it's a child yeah so comfort that yeah it's exactly how it's really important to that I look at my teenage self and it's like what would have
[00:54:20] happened if someone like me now would have walked into that person's life and I think my world would have been so different I just I look at that little person and it's incredible to see like
[00:54:38] I actually probably have returned to who that is now beautiful I was the next question I was going to ask you what would you say now to your younger self before you talk as the young
[00:54:49] person to your older self and now what would you say to your younger self now? Well I would have said that it's going to be hard and it'll be worth it I've never in my over the last couple of years
[00:55:01] I've spoke the most truth I've never shown up so truthfully to the people in my life and I'll tell you like like I do think not telling the truth whether that's to yourself or I'm not talking about just
[00:55:17] like lying but but keeping keeping secrets for fear of the work and I know not everybody can be out but I I mean telling the truth has been liberating for me and the hardest thing of my life
[00:55:36] I've lost a significant amount of people in my life by being who I am and that is not easy But the complete and utter abandonment that I lived in from myself until I started telling the truth was far more painful than losing the people
[00:55:58] because now I get to go home to me every night, you know and I get to live my truth And I do look at that little person and think it's going to be really hard but you're going to
[00:56:11] you're going to explode and live to who you really are you know it'll be It'll be pretty magical I also had this weird thing throughout my life that I knew my 40s was when it's going to hit right
[00:56:25] and I can see it start happening but I knew something was going to happen in my 40s and my 60s actually but I think now being being able to live as I am and and really looking over my life and seeing like Jesus
[00:56:44] I was that person all along you know, I was like wow This is a mile Right this is why I just didn't have the words. I didn't have the example I grew up in which is important yeah and representation I mean I I am
[00:57:02] Mostly safe to be out and I think it is crucial that I do the work to do that because there's other little people like me That might see me walking down the street or I mean I'll have to say the same thing to you Danny
[00:57:14] It wasn't I didn't just run into you at that art space like I found you on the internet You like shine through I actually got scared of how like Like not physically but like how attracted I was to you on my tell on my on my
[00:57:33] little computer I looking self-absorbed I was like who the fuck is this person? I feel a kinship with this random person on the internet and it scared me
[00:57:46] You know, it was like I followed you at first and I was like I don't know if I can live my life not knowing this person And then I had to unfollow you But that's why I unfollow you. I was like I don't think I can
[00:57:55] Actually not actually know this person. Yes, it became like really sad Just to be honest and then when I ran into you I was like are you fucking kidding me? Like this is the most incredible experience it was I just
[00:58:12] I've talked to a couple of the non-binary people we're all like we're also different like we cannot be pinned down No, how we interpret our bodies and our identities like we are so fucking colorful yeah, we are
[00:58:26] The fluidity is just insane right and and and I think it is always like we're interested in looking for like-minded people and safe people and I think that when I saw you there was there was just like a sparkle there that I thought Like like-minded people That's amazing
[00:58:48] So look I had representation even in a You know for the same age and yeah, and it was still important to me You know yeah, and as a little kid I think it would have been incredible to see this you know
[00:59:03] And I would just told them you're gonna get there It's gonna be fucking wild It's gonna be crazy hunting but we're doing it. Yeah, and you're gonna have to do the hardest work of your life
[00:59:12] You know and then some of the work you didn't even realize was hard because you got through it And you're like how the hell that I do that yeah, and I look back at it and I think I think
[00:59:24] How did I do that but also of course you did that your brave right? You know and you deserve to do that kind of work for yourself. I think everybody does we all deserve to work hard for ourselves To be
[00:59:37] Seeking our authenticity and our autonomy. I think autonomy Is crucial for every single one of us Yeah, some of us I think our born was a little more than the others. Yeah, but you know even even those was the highest privilege
[00:59:53] Don't truly have autonomy this is and this is very true I keep finding out some things and I'm kind of shook by it sometimes We're all hurt people. Yeah, yeah, so I think The representation matters and I'm a they them
[01:00:07] Yeah, I'm my pronoun is man. Yeah, I love that I think that sometimes I teetor between it mattering and not they're And it's only because I think this is another part that I'm working on I have spoken very you know
[01:00:22] Affirmately to like sometimes it doesn't matter like if I'm talking to somebody and we're learning in conversation And they miss gender me but they're actively listening to me. They're gonna learn In that conversation yeah, and eventually you know, I don't want to lose what was happening
[01:00:39] But there are times that It's so blatant the disregard for it that I literally get told like you know I love you and blah, blah, blah, and I'm like
[01:00:51] Actually, I don't know can you clarify? Yeah, so like the way that you're showing up to show me that I matter and that you do and it's like You know again
[01:01:01] Recognizing our privilege and that we can be out. I yeah been out and I guess my false assumption of Safety always kind of clouds that because I have openly been assaulted and I've been gay-bashed
[01:01:14] You know, I've had that actually happened to me and I think that the representation I drew I'm more Inept to Sit and listen to someone else's story and bond with that representation of their story then I am to recognize my own sometimes And like for instance
[01:01:33] People will sometimes start telling me like I was kicked out of my house for being gay I could have be part of the family and I'll be like oh my god. I could never imagine Quite literally went through that That was my story You know
[01:01:46] To the point of like not being around my family for ten years and of course I don't want that to be the identifier of things but it's definitely the fuel that allows me the first of all the courage
[01:01:58] To do something and choose my chosen family and choose my birth family. I choose my siblings and my dad I have This Understanding now that I'm not empathetic. I'm actually very I come more from the space of hyper-vigilant behavior and so I'm starting to
[01:02:24] Covent my safe spaces more and covet what brings me the peace and the representation that I need it because By all means if we were sitting here and it was James Dobson from fucking
[01:02:40] What do you call that show focus on the family's bullshit and his direction on children and all of that if I was having The discussion of being this obedient child and
[01:02:53] Sitting in the lack of autonomy of what it is to discover myself and grow and I was sitting in that Space before to now having the representation by by his standards I'm going straight to hell and I don't like everything I'm doing is wrong
[01:03:11] But in the standard outside of everything it's a miracle I got out of the religious constraint in the language the diabolical language to destroy families and The compassion of the ability to have compassion You know we were stripped of all of that and so sitting
[01:03:31] Now understanding okay like I'm not I don't have to be part of those circles anymore. That's like the james doxin or all of that Aggressive parenting that existed back then I get to gently do that with myself
[01:03:44] And it is a miracle quite honestly that my sisters and I continue to choose ourselves and I bring them up a lot And I don't care because I know the work that we had to do to choose as a family to heal
[01:03:57] The conversations that I have with my siblings. It's like they're my parent They're the nurture that I always needed but we were really stripped of that space and so we only look At that representation of the mother and a father and that's quite honestly what was
[01:04:14] Destroying my ability to be myself because the nurture was So problematic in the Christian and religious sense of abusive parenting because it was abusive parenting That's what they were taught to now be in this Full autonomy space where we choose each other and we choose to heal
[01:04:33] What was done to us and we choose to not unlearn but to remember that we don't have to continue learning down that path that's destroying us and we get to learn new things like You know because I got to be this way. I got to have a sister
[01:04:49] Because I understand myself to be non-binary and all the stuff that I went through. I now have a young sibling That is like had I not witnessed you go through it but also choose to come out of it a better person
[01:05:02] I wouldn't be where I'm at the access. I have to information because of you Matters and so I'm like representation does matter pronouns fucking matter, you know and To witness other people being misgendered you know I'm not always gonna stick up for my own self in my misgendering
[01:05:22] Sometimes I just let it slide or whatever but it's my people around me that's like that's not how Danny identifies like you do know that they're non-binary. That's the thing I think about pronouns to is the rapper is those around you
[01:05:38] Doing that work for you. I think it is the I that's how we care for each other. Absolutely, you know and it is it is An interesting experience I've had a number of times being misgendered and I didn't know how to do it
[01:05:52] I'm so weary sometimes yeah and those around me weren't able to And show up and it was really hard you know you just have to mask it. Yeah, I'm like not appropriate. I mean Yeah, I really wish that they would have helped me out in that situation
[01:06:08] Because I have to be brave every day. You know, I mean with strangers every day I'm a gray-haired person now and I get called maim every day and I'm so fucking tired of it
[01:06:20] You know, so I have to face strangers and say not a maim and they get confused then it's like now we're confused About what's happening and it's like this one second interaction but that is so painful to me
[01:06:35] I just I'm not that you know right. So then to be in a safe intimate space with someone and getting misgendered Sometimes just get so hard you do it all the time and it's like I don't have the capacity right now
[01:06:48] Yeah, and I don't and I think you don't have the capacity to receive that you were wrong about how you approached me Yeah, and I don't like our allies is really crucial that they they put themselves in that position, you know because they may not
[01:07:02] I mean if they're Our sis allies, you know, it's like it is really Important that you do that and you literally save a life when you do that. It isn't it isn't just like I know it's uncomfortable To correct somebody on pronouns trust me. I know
[01:07:20] But but being able to do that is a cis person. Oh, hey, no, they they use they them like check yourself there Right, you know, I know it's really hard. I do I know it's really complicated, but it is like
[01:07:33] That is the most powerful thing you can do for Trans or non-binary person It is a person is to call out people. I think one of the the best The best things is also the eye connection that I got to share with you upon first meeting
[01:07:52] You and there's a whole backstory behind it, but that's all gonna come out way later, but To be in a room where the queer acceptance wasn't super vibrant Yeah, oh, I know we saw it
[01:08:06] And that was the representation didn't even need to be words. It was the whole behavioral moment And to watch another person become uncomfortable with you existing in your joy with another person that exists in the same type of joy
[01:08:20] Is another that was like another way of me understanding that sometimes That false sense of safety like that wasn't a safe space, but because there were two of us finally It was like, oh wow, it feels safe because it's your energy and my energy. Yeah
[01:08:37] So yes, speaking to the allies absolutely voice it if you see your friend being misgendered make it You know, you do and you give them again back their autonomy
[01:08:51] You know and I choose and this is something I really need to work through and I don't want to be so You know, stark in it and be like fuck you these are my pronouns
[01:09:01] But there is a level in which it is disrespectful and if a person keeps doing it And if they have the ability to teach themselves things they have the ability to meet you where your at and the things that they can learn to
[01:09:16] It's a societal thing if you want to continue growing in community and society You need to tap into inclusive language But we will be very able to tell if your authentic in it or not
[01:09:31] Like if you're just doing it. It's like this queer-bating way or if you're just doing it because You know if you're just kind of Writing a tale of seeming relevant, but you're not actually putting the work in we're gonna be able to tell and oh yeah
[01:09:48] It's very obvious And I hate it You're like oh, god, this is really fucking yeah. I am not a token. I'm not no But I do need that we do need to wrap this up. I know that we're gonna keep going baby
[01:10:02] But we're gonna come back with more conversations again Raven where are we allowed to view your work? Where can we see your work at? It's at ravin rorick.com That's R a v e n r o h r i g dot com
[01:10:20] Perfect all right. Do you have any shows coming up soon? Yeah, actually in July. I'm gonna have a show with my dad Amazing real good International show unfortunately my grandfather's not here anymore, but
[01:10:33] So he won't be a part of it, but my dad and I are gonna show our work together and Oh, I'm sorry true. Oh, yeah, and he's he's just like exceptional. He's also Just a real weird Awesome juicy dude like
[01:10:48] In this space of being like authentic to himself. So I think it'll be really fun Okay, and so that's in July So people can come and find you On website okay And I'm also on Instagram that is the only social media. I do I am an old millennial
[01:11:06] Oh, it's at it's also a rabor groric Okay, it's just my name. That's my handle perfect. I show you what I do and how I do it and Make Sexie comments on there some yeah, you do Yeah
[01:11:20] Well it has been such an honor to sit with you today. I feel like I'm coming out more empowered to Do something challenging that we had a conversation before this gave me a lot more perspective and
[01:11:33] And kind of an outside way of looking at myself to remain in my To remain in my power and it's was really lovely to sit next to you and your power today
[01:11:45] No comparison pieces, but just like I adore you for who you are who you're becoming and all the versions that are gonna Always flourish that just make you brave and baby Back at you Danny
[01:11:59] So with all of that being said again. I'm not showing up or getting on the mic too Encourage anyone again. I don't want to be
[01:12:07] Put in one of these toxic spiritual places at all. I am not a person that's claiming anything other than the autonomy of my own life This is my experience if it resonates and it feels familiar than always as usual Share it with somebody that may need it, but
[01:12:24] Again, if it doesn't resonate move along we're just here to create safe spaces again Just remember Continue creating earnestly in love y'all. We'll talk soon This is Sarah Hubbard host of you and me kid a podcast about starting and raising a family on your own
[01:12:42] We've just launched season two and I'm speaking with single moms Those still considering an expert in relevant fields to give you a real sense of what the Data-day experience of solo parenting looks and feels like plus this season
[01:12:55] I've partnered with California cryobink the number ones for make in the US So wherever you are in the process this podcast provides some support humor and helpful information listen to you and me kid wherever you get your podcasts