Rebecca Chopp: From Blank Canvas to Portrait

[00:00:00] Hi, I'm Katie Kramer, President and CEO of the Boettcher Foundation. Welcome to Colorado Leadership Stories,

[00:00:08] where we talk to everyday courageous leaders who have made transformational impacts in their communities and

[00:00:15] are building a better state for everyone.

[00:00:18] You'll hear from leaders and organizations and communities throughout the state as we explore the idea that

[00:00:24] leadership is an activity that anyone can do. With us today is Rebecca Chop, PhD.

[00:00:36] Rebecca was the 18th and first female chancellor at the University of Denver.

[00:00:41] She also served as president of Swarthmore College and Colgate University. In

[00:00:46] 2019, she stepped down from her long and successful career after doctors diagnosed her with mild cognitive impairment due to Alzheimer's disease.

[00:00:55] Today, Rebecca is an Alzheimer's advocate.

[00:00:58] She serves on the National Board of the Alzheimer's Association and she co-founded Voices of Alzheimer's, an

[00:01:04] advocacy group for people with Alzheimer's. Her first non-academic book, Still Me,

[00:01:09] Accepting Alzheimer's Without Losing Yourself, was released in February. Welcome, Rebecca.

[00:01:14] It's a pleasure to join you from your own home in the northern suburbs of Denver.

[00:01:19] Thank you, Katie, and it's great to have you in my home. Well, thank you. Well, let's just dive in.

[00:01:24] Rebecca, in Still Me, you talk about me before and after.

[00:01:29] How did a working-class girl from Kansas become a widely published author and editor, an

[00:01:35] ordained minister and the first female chancellor at DU?

[00:01:40] Well, I grew up in a family that was definitely working class. They

[00:01:46] had not been to higher

[00:01:48] education and they didn't think I needed to go to higher education. So I didn't even have college prep.

[00:01:55] But for a variety of reasons,

[00:01:57] I

[00:01:59] got to college and I think it was great teachers

[00:02:04] that encouraged me. Now, I had learned from my father, especially, hard work and determination.

[00:02:11] I mean, he was just the most determined person and he worked hard. So I knew about that and

[00:02:19] every time an opportunity came along, I said, yes. I said, I'll try it.

[00:02:25] I'll see if I can do that and I would work very, very hard. So

[00:02:30] opportunity by opportunity, I was able to kind of step forward.

[00:02:35] And you know in recent years,

[00:02:38] I've had a lot of friends write me and kind of reflect upon who I am after reading the book and

[00:02:44] two things keep coming out. One, I am a very determined person and

[00:02:50] second, I am very open to people and open to new

[00:02:53] possibilities and new opportunities. So, you know, when I was in college, a

[00:03:01] position came open in a local rural church to be the pastor and

[00:03:06] it was unheard of that they would appoint a woman at that time.

[00:03:10] But as I was told, they had no men to appoint.

[00:03:13] And I said, okay. And I stepped forward and it was a fabulous opportunity.

[00:03:18] Wow.

[00:03:19] And you know that kind of happened, got an opportunity to go to graduate school,

[00:03:24] went to Emory, had the opportunity after about 14 years of teaching to go into academic leadership.

[00:03:31] And I said, well, why not? I'll try it.

[00:03:36] And I liked it. So that's kind of the story.

[00:03:40] A lot of help along the way. A lot of supportive people.

[00:03:45] Didn't have the opportunity to be a butcher, but I had lots of scholarship,

[00:03:49] which I could not have gone to school without. And with that scholarship,

[00:03:55] all these supportive people. My first scholarship was from a farmer whose wife had died

[00:04:02] and he wanted to support a girl to go in honor of his wife to go to college.

[00:04:08] And he was so supportive for years. He would send me little pocket money,

[00:04:14] $25 here or there. Just so loving and kind.

[00:04:19] What a great story. Love it. Remind me what your academic discipline is.

[00:04:24] My academic discipline is philosophical theology.

[00:04:27] Ah, love it. Love it. Well, I think that served you well,

[00:04:31] certainly throughout your career and maybe even more so now in light of everything in

[00:04:36] your life. Why don't you take us to the annual routine checkup in March 2019

[00:04:43] when you met with your doctor and discovered that you had early stage Alzheimer's?

[00:04:48] I was a chancellor at the University of Denver, very proud to be chancellor there and having

[00:04:54] a great time. Fred, my husband and I always wanted to live in Denver.

[00:05:00] And so it was just a dream come true, but I knew I needed to take care of myself. So I took the

[00:05:07] time from my busy schedule to go to the annual physical and my wonderful doctor said,

[00:05:15] any changes? And I said, no, no, no, I'm doing great. I have started to sleep a lot.

[00:05:20] And I said, oh yes, this is funny. I also got lost on the way to your office.

[00:05:25] Now I had not been lost since and I'd not been lost up until that point. But that day,

[00:05:32] as if my body was saying, you know, signal, signal. So at the end, she asked for a many

[00:05:39] mental status exam. That's a 10 minute exam where they just check your verbal, your math,

[00:05:47] your spatial temporal, your memory, your cognitive, your executive function. And I

[00:05:52] laughed because I'd never failed an exam in my life. I said, sure. But I didn't pass.

[00:06:00] So it took about five months for me to actually get diagnosed. Soon we will have biomarkers

[00:06:08] with the drop of blood. You'll be able to, the doctor will be able to say,

[00:06:13] you know, there are signs of disease go to a neurologist, but not yet. So now we have

[00:06:19] neuropsychology tests, MRIs, PET scans. But I saw my annual physician on October 12th

[00:06:29] and March 7th. The first neurologist I saw told me I had MCI due to Alzheimer's.

[00:06:36] Wow. I'm sure that was quite hard to hear.

[00:06:40] It was devastating. It was absolutely devastating. My mother and my grandmothers

[00:06:46] both had the disease. And of course, in those days they couldn't use dementia or Alzheimer's

[00:06:54] until the very end stages. And they didn't know about lifestyle changes or some of the

[00:07:01] medicine. So that was my first thought that was in my head. And Fred and I had planned on

[00:07:09] me working for another 10 years or so. I had lots to do it to you. And then we were going

[00:07:15] to travel and enjoy life together. And that all came to a very abrupt halt.

[00:07:21] Wow, I'm sure. Well, you have described turning your doctor's orders into gifts.

[00:07:29] Tell us about that.

[00:07:30] My first neurologist basically told me there was nothing that could be done. And even five

[00:07:36] years ago, I think that was a common theme. Well, I went to see a different neurologist.

[00:07:43] Everybody should always with a serious diagnosis go get a second opinion. And this one said,

[00:07:51] there's much now that can be done. Lots of research is saying lifestyle changes can prolong.

[00:07:59] You can live well. And there are medications that are going to come on the market five

[00:08:05] years ago. They weren't out yet. Now there is at least one out. But she gave me these orders.

[00:08:13] And, you know, it took me quite a while to live with those orders. I mean, I really had

[00:08:20] to work through a lot of depression. There wasn't much written about living well with the disease.

[00:08:27] So finally, one day, I kind of decided to leap, to step forward, do what I've always done,

[00:08:36] see it as an opportunity, right? Get discipline, do a lot of research, figure out what I needed

[00:08:43] to do to turn those doctor's orders into the gifts of living well. So I would say,

[00:08:51] you know, there are five that I think are really extremely important. One is to get

[00:08:56] the early diagnosis. And again, that's going to be so much easier when we get the biomarkers.

[00:09:02] But it's important to get that early diagnosis because the lifestyle changes

[00:09:08] that I'll describe in a minute and the medication only have impact on you if you're

[00:09:14] the early stages of Alzheimer's. If you wait too long, it's not going to help. So it's really

[00:09:20] important. Plus I think people need to not only take this serious but also have time with their

[00:09:29] family and friends, reduce their stress, enjoy life. So you've got to get the early diagnosis

[00:09:36] and again, step forward, get determined, find your story. Secondly, you build your body

[00:09:45] to prolong your brain. And that's where a lot of the scientific research is. Diet. Diet

[00:09:52] is so important. I mean, you can't pick up the paper or open Facebook or Twitter or any of

[00:09:59] those things without learning about this research going on between what you eat and your

[00:10:06] brain and your body. So diet's very exciting. Shiro Masuto says, she's a nutritionist, she says,

[00:10:15] this is scary. Every bite you eat is brain draining or brain sustaining.

[00:10:24] So I try to think about that all the time. I followed the Mediterranean diet, a version

[00:10:30] called MIND. And that's really the Mediterranean diet, plus lots of blueberries, walnuts, salmon.

[00:10:39] The difficult thing about the MIND diet is it's absolutely no processed foods.

[00:10:46] So that can be tricky. Right. A little more effort, right? Yes. I mean, I love ice cream.

[00:10:53] You know, ice cream is comfort, it's fun, it's celebration. But ice cream is highly processed.

[00:11:00] So now I have to save my ice cream for once or twice a year. But taste change. Oh, right. You

[00:11:07] get used to what you're eating. Right. You do. You really do. And I never had had much Indian

[00:11:13] food. Indian food is fabulous for your brain. So now my new ice cream is Indian food.

[00:11:20] Exercise is also part of building your body to prolong your brain. And in some ways,

[00:11:27] diet and exercise are really, really key together. So I exercise about two hours a day.

[00:11:35] That's what my neurologist told me to do. I couldn't do that if I was working. Right. But

[00:11:41] exercise floods your brain with chemicals that allow focus and concentration. And the only way

[00:11:49] I could write my book was I would go out and run and walk with my dog for an hour.

[00:11:55] And then I could come back and get about two hours of really concentrated writing time.

[00:12:01] I also do strength training and all sorts of choreography. I've done kickboxing,

[00:12:08] ballet, and right now I'm doing Polynesian dancing. Wow. Which is incredible fun. So it's

[00:12:15] extremely important to do that exercise. And these things, diet and exercise and the third

[00:12:22] one, sleep are also all the researchers, well, the researchers think may prevent the signs of

[00:12:32] Alzheimer's from showing or delay them. So if you have Alzheimer's, it may prolong the symptoms

[00:12:39] from showing up. If you haven't been diagnosed but you still have it because Alzheimer's

[00:12:47] really develops about 15 years before you show symptoms. So everyone should exercise

[00:12:54] right and sleep. Sleep is so important. You know, I never slept much. I thought it was kind

[00:13:02] of cool. My little secret sauce as a leader. Yes. Ah, that's false pride. Resonate with that

[00:13:07] too. That's false pride. Sleep is when the free radicals, which is just the kind of trash

[00:13:15] that gets created every day in your brain, that's a mind scientific way of saying it,

[00:13:19] gets cleansed out. So if you don't have seven or more hours of sleep a night,

[00:13:28] it is very likely that your brain is going to get inflamed and damaged.

[00:13:33] So you need to become a queen of sleep. Well, say more about that. Thank you for

[00:13:40] coaching me here. You always do that whenever we get together. But as far as like the sleep,

[00:13:44] did you just decide you needed to make time for the sleep or did you kind of change some of your

[00:13:49] routine? I've heard people talk about sleep hygiene before. Was that also part of your?

[00:13:55] I don't know about that. You know, I do try to now stay off the email before I go to sleep.

[00:14:00] Right. But I would say about that if you do all those nice little tricks and they don't work,

[00:14:06] go to your doctor and get a sleep medication. It is more important to take a little,

[00:14:11] I take a little half pill, a little tiny half pill every night so I can make sure I sleep.

[00:14:17] Don't take the over-the-counter ones. They can actually damage your brain.

[00:14:22] But I would say yes, do all you can. My deal about sleep was anxiety, problem solving.

[00:14:30] Right. Right? Do you do that?

[00:14:32] I do, Rebecca. I know.

[00:14:34] Last night I was solving problems in the middle of the night in my brain.

[00:14:38] I would do that. I would wake up at 1 30 or 2 and start problem solving. So that's the tricks

[00:14:45] you have to work on. And I think, you know, writing things out, learning to meditate,

[00:14:52] there are ways, forms of meditation that can put you to sleep quickly or medication.

[00:14:59] So build your body to prolong your brain is gift number two. Three is creativity.

[00:15:07] And this is fun. You know, we used to say people are right brain or left brain,

[00:15:12] artist or you're a thinker. Well, we know that's not true now. Creativity is located in various

[00:15:19] lobes or places in the brain and it's so important. The field of neuroesthetics

[00:15:25] is telling us that creativity helps keep the brain plastic, flexible, and can lead to new

[00:15:34] neuro pathways. So I'm losing pathways right and left. So I learned to paint.

[00:15:42] And in her home, beautiful paintings that she's done. What a talented artist you are. Did you

[00:15:49] know you were always an artist? Oh, no, no, no, no. I was the kid whose first grade teacher

[00:15:55] whispered quietly and then told my mother she shouldn't go into art. But you know,

[00:16:02] I did a lot of research and I discovered that artists like anything else, you can learn it.

[00:16:09] Now my son is a gifted artist. He's naturally talented. He can teach himself. I took lessons,

[00:16:16] but you can learn it and it's so much fun. But it's not just art. It's music. Music is

[00:16:23] really good for people with any neurological disorder. Gardening, the latest research I read

[00:16:31] is about doodling. So anybody can doodle, right? You just doodle on the side of your paper.

[00:16:38] Even doodling lights up the centers of your brain that aren't normally activated

[00:16:45] and keeps your brain plastic. So creativity is fun and you can dance around the house.

[00:16:51] I've been known to do that. Okay, now that's very good because see that's exercise

[00:16:55] plus creativity. Yes. So that's good. The fourth gift is what I call abide in awe

[00:17:04] and you may call that spirituality. I do, but I think there's a broader category

[00:17:11] that is about living in awe, being in awe. You know, we're so much about doing,

[00:17:17] doing, doing, doing. And even as a theologian who studied things like awe and creation

[00:17:25] and God, I was so busy doing, but this is really taking that practice of abiding in awe

[00:17:34] and for a lot of people it's walking in nature. It may also be a mindfulness of being

[00:17:41] with your family. There's so much research on this and we know it reduces inflammation.

[00:17:50] I was a provost at Emory University when the neurology department was

[00:17:57] analyzing the brains of Tibetan monks, Buddhist monks when they were meditating.

[00:18:04] And that was like the first time I began to learn about this science. So spirituality is

[00:18:12] good for you physically as well as spiritually and mentally. And the last one I would say

[00:18:18] is community and friendships. They talk about intellectual and social engagement a lot with

[00:18:24] Alzheimer's isolation can be a terrible thing as we know isolation and loneliness is the

[00:18:31] thing that most harms elderly in our society. Well, if you have Alzheimer's, oftentimes social

[00:18:39] engagement is the one lasting engagement you have. So I have had to build new community

[00:18:47] because I always had community in my education, but I joined book clubs and I have a wonderful

[00:18:54] neighborhood and now I have time. I can see friends, friends can come and see me

[00:19:00] and you know, thank goodness for zoom. Right. And phone calls. So those are really the five gifts

[00:19:07] that the doctor ordered me to do get the early diagnosis. I count that as one build your body

[00:19:15] to prolong your brain, create a bite of awe and then community and friendship social engagement.

[00:19:23] Wow. Well, I think that sounds like a recipe, whether you have Alzheimer's or not,

[00:19:28] for a fulfilled life. It is, it is. But I know the stakes are high and yeah,

[00:19:35] and you become such an advocate for Alzheimer's. What's the one message you want everyone to know

[00:19:41] about Alzheimer's disease? You can live well with Alzheimer's. We have 10,000 Americans a

[00:19:48] day turning 65. We are going to explode the number of people living with Alzheimer's.

[00:19:56] Alzheimer's doesn't always show up over 65. There is early onset, but 90% of Alzheimer's

[00:20:04] people are over 65. So right now we have 7 million with Alzheimer's in this country,

[00:20:10] 10,000 a day turning 65. That number is going to explode. We've got to fight the stigma.

[00:20:18] Right. The stigma I had when I was diagnosed that once you get Alzheimer's,

[00:20:23] you're not going to be able to do anything. We need everyone to know that people can live

[00:20:31] well with Alzheimer's for many, many, many years.

[00:20:36] Tell us about Voices of Alzheimer's. You co-founded this, right?

[00:20:41] I did. After I was diagnosed, I was on a Colorado radio show and the host happened to

[00:20:49] be friends with a man named James Taylor and his wife, Jerry. Jerry has Alzheimer's.

[00:20:56] I think you'd like to get to know one another. One thing led to another and we formed a kind of

[00:21:01] support group for about five or six of us. After about six months, we said,

[00:21:08] we've got to tell the world you can live well with Alzheimer's. We've got to fight

[00:21:13] that stigma. Medications will soon be developed. Health care physicians, researchers, nurses will

[00:21:22] soon be trained. The biggest fight we have is fighting, getting the public to understand.

[00:21:29] They're great organizations, Alzheimer's Association, Us Against Alzheimer's,

[00:21:34] all working on the cutting edge. We, people with Alzheimer's, needed to tell our stories.

[00:21:41] So that's what we do. We tell our stories. We advise pharmaceutical companies about what

[00:21:48] people with Alzheimer's want. We are active on a policy level. We do all we can to encourage

[00:21:56] people to live well with Alzheimer's and to encourage the public that you can live well

[00:22:01] with Alzheimer's. I wonder, you have been such an incredible leader throughout your life and now

[00:22:09] again with this most recent challenge and opportunity you're doing it. At Betcher,

[00:22:15] we talk about connecting and building up Colorado's doers and difference makers.

[00:22:20] Rebecca, I wonder when you look back at your life,

[00:22:23] when did you know that you were a doer and difference maker?

[00:22:29] I don't know that I've ever thought of the answer to that question, but I think the biggest

[00:22:35] moment I had was when I was at Emory as a faculty member. They really needed

[00:22:45] to have the faculty take teaching more seriously. It's a research institution

[00:22:51] and they asked me to co-chair a university-wide commission on teaching at Emory and it was an

[00:22:58] enormous task because Emory has medical schools, nursing schools, law schools,

[00:23:03] etc. It has a two-year campus 40 miles away. It just seemed how to do that. There had never

[00:23:13] been anything like that at Emory before and I did it and it had huge impact on the campus.

[00:23:22] I think that's when I realized that my ability to get people together

[00:23:29] and form consensus and to frame and narrate the story was a real leadership gift that I could

[00:23:37] use to make a difference. Clearly a superpower. I wonder if your experiences the last five years,

[00:23:44] what has that taught you about leadership? You know, I'm not sure it taught me new things,

[00:23:49] but I'll say the things that it really is brought to for. One is listening.

[00:23:55] Listening when people are in pain. To be a leader often with students when they were suffering,

[00:24:02] I had to listen when they told me hard stories and now that's been important to bring people

[00:24:09] in to something like the voices of Alzheimer's to help people tell their stories.

[00:24:16] I go out and I give a lot of speeches or I give a lot of speeches on Zoom about Alzheimer's

[00:24:21] about Alzheimer's and often spend hours afterwards listening to people's stories,

[00:24:28] but you can't help people step forward until they feel strong enough to tell their story.

[00:24:35] So that one's been extremely important and then building community. I mean, that's I guess

[00:24:41] that's my secret sauce of all leadership is you never lead alone, right? No, you have to

[00:24:47] have followers if you're going to be a leader. Yeah, yeah and I don't really buy the leaders

[00:24:51] and followers but I do buy the leaders and community leaders lead in the context of

[00:24:57] community and this is building a new community. Do you think that these circumstances that you're

[00:25:04] in have allowed you to learn something about yourself that you would have never experienced

[00:25:09] to go before maybe it was the creativity piece or other things? Are there some things that

[00:25:15] were kind of surprised you about yourself? The creativity piece for sure because I thought,

[00:25:21] well, I mean when somebody tried to teach me to paint I threw my first and only adult tantrum.

[00:25:27] I just thought that's ridiculous but you're never too old to learn as the saying goes

[00:25:34] so I've learned that about myself. I've learned that I have a grace in accepting.

[00:25:43] I recently had to give up all driving and I'm a Kansas girl. Right, I drive. That's what I do.

[00:25:51] I drive to solve my problems. I drive to get places. The decision was made. I was treated with

[00:25:57] dignity and it is really hard. I hate that I can't run off to Michael's to get new paints

[00:26:04] for my paintings. I had to rely on a driver but yeah, I've learned I have a grace in

[00:26:12] hard things and I've also learned that I am kind of an everyday mystic and I really like connecting

[00:26:20] with transcendence through people with people with nature. Love that. What does a typical day look

[00:26:27] like for you these days? I get up about six. I have my coffee. I check email and those little

[00:26:37] things and then my dog Beauty and I go for about an hour run or walk and I will come back and if I

[00:26:44] have you know pressing emails to do I wait until I'm woken up which is a great luxury

[00:26:53] to do to respond to my emails. I never could do that before so I have coffee in an hour

[00:26:59] run. I write much better responses I think and then I will either paint

[00:27:09] which I really really love to do or sometimes I have a zoom or something event. I like to do

[00:27:15] those in the morning and then I will usually walk the dog again and work out for an hour

[00:27:22] and then I just learned to knit so I'll probably knit after lunch and then paint or read some more

[00:27:31] and I do see a lot of neighbors and sometimes go into Denver and see friends. Then you know

[00:27:38] dinner and usually knit and watch a movie. Love that sounds like a wonderful existence.

[00:27:43] It's a wonderful life yeah that's great. Well I'm sitting here right and looking at your

[00:27:48] coffee table here and your book is sitting right here and I'm wondering where can someone

[00:27:55] find the book or come hear you speak these days. You can find the book on Amazon

[00:28:03] or Barnes and Nowhere online. You can find it at Tattered Cover on Colfax and hopefully some

[00:28:09] other bookstores. I have a speaking engagement in early June up in Fort Collins.

[00:28:19] I have been doing some around Denver and would love to do more so if people would like me

[00:28:27] to come and do a speaking engagement I'm happy to do that. Wonderful I think we can

[00:28:33] link some information in the show notes about that and your book. Sounds good. Still Me,

[00:28:38] Accepting Alzheimer's Without Losing Yourself. Wonderful okay well we're at the lightning round

[00:28:43] so four more quick questions and that is so Rebecca what's your favorite Colorado hobby?

[00:28:49] Hiking. Hiking. Hiking. That's great where do you like to go? You know I haven't found a

[00:28:54] place I don't like to go. Fair enough. I go to the Breckenridge area a lot because it's

[00:28:59] close and Estes and Boulder. Love love Telluride and Crusty. Ah such a pretty

[00:29:05] steamboat. I could go on and on. What's your favorite Colorado landmark?

[00:29:12] The mountains. All of them. All of them. Rocky Mountains. I love it. What action hero do you

[00:29:18] most identify with? Well I had to ask my son about this okay and he said without a doubt

[00:29:23] Princess Leah. Well that resonates with me. I know. I know. That's great that's a great

[00:29:30] hero. I think I'd pick that answer too actually. That's great and oh I can't wait to hear the

[00:29:35] answer to this one. What are you currently binging? Is there a show, a book, a podcast

[00:29:40] that you are enjoying or can't get enough of? Fred my husband and I are watching Vera on Britbox.

[00:29:47] She is this talk about leader now you've got to go home and watch Vera. You will

[00:29:51] love Vera. Vera is an older Scottish detective and she is just totally awesome. Very complex

[00:30:00] mysteries and for podcasts I am a big fan of a podcast called Being Patient by Deb Con and guess

[00:30:09] what it's about. Being patient. Being patient and Alzheimer's. Other neurological disorders.

[00:30:16] Of course we'll have to check that out too. Well wonderful well again thank you for your

[00:30:19] hospitality having us to your home and the chance to catch up with you and just as a

[00:30:26] community leader and a young woman in my career you I was at your inauguration at D.U. as part

[00:30:32] of that and I have so appreciated the informal mentorship throughout my career and thank you

[00:30:38] for being such a great role model for all of us. Thank you Katie and I think it's a friend

[00:30:44] to friend mentorship and I think we have this Princess Leah attitude about our lives.

[00:30:49] Definitely in common for sure. Thanks Rebecca. Thank you for joining Colorado Leadership Stories

[00:30:55] where we hope to inspire the next generation of Colorado community builders, doers and difference

[00:31:01] makers. Colorado Leadership Stories is presented by the Betcher Foundation. The Betcher Foundation

[00:31:08] supports Colorado by empowering leaders and communities with tools to tackle challenges

[00:31:14] and pursue opportunities building a better state for everyone. With an 85 plus year legacy

[00:31:21] of giving back we're committed to amplifying our impact for future generations. That's the spirit

[00:31:28] of Betcher.