Dr. Stefanie Johnson: Standing Out While Fitting In

[00:00:00] Hi, I'm Katie Kramer, President and CEO of the Boettcher Foundation.

[00:00:05] Welcome to Colorado Leadership Stories, where we talk to everyday courageous leaders who have made transformational impacts in their communities and are building a better state for everyone.

[00:00:18] You'll hear from leaders and organizations and communities throughout the state as we explore the idea that leadership is an activity that anyone can do.

[00:00:33] Today, we're honored to have Dr. Stephanie Johnson with us.

[00:00:36] Dr. Johnson is the Director of the University of Colorado Boulder's Center for Leadership.

[00:00:41] She is also many other things, including a nationally renowned speaker, a professor, a mother, a wife, and a friend.

[00:00:48] She's an Associate Professor of Organizational Leadership and Information Analytics at CU Boulder's Leeds School of Business and teaches courses on the intersection of leadership and diversity.

[00:00:59] Her research focuses in two areas, how unconscious bias affects the evaluation of leaders and strategies that leaders can use to mitigate that bias.

[00:01:08] Dr. Johnson is the author of the Wall Street Journal national bestseller Inclusify, and her work has been featured in multiple worldwide media outlets, including Bloomberg, Forbes, and the Harvard Business Review.

[00:01:21] I am honored to also sit on the board of Center for Leadership, so I get to work for Stephanie too in some of my community work, and it's just so wonderful to have you here. So thank you.

[00:01:32] Thank you, Katie. I'm so happy to be here.

[00:01:34] So I want to start us off. I want the audience to learn a little bit more about you.

[00:01:39] You grew up in Los Angeles. I know we're raised by a mom and a single parent home, and an important part of your identity is being Latina.

[00:01:47] You've written about growing up poor and at different times in your childhood living on welfare and food stamps, and yet at a relatively young age, you wanted to be a college professor.

[00:01:57] So I was reading your book just in preparation for the interview today, and in your book you talk about headwinds and tailwinds that we all have, things that kind of propel us or things that we're flying into.

[00:02:09] So talk about your story a little. How did it come to be that you are this incredible college professor among other things?

[00:02:17] Thank you. Well, I love the headwinds and tailwinds analogy. It's something I stole from another book called How to Be a Good-ish Person that was written by Dolly Chugg, and she talks about this analogy of starting at different places or just the idea that people have different headwinds that might slow them down.

[00:02:37] For me, I definitely think financial risk was a huge headwind that slowed me down. I remember as I'm seeing my own kids prepare for things like standardized tests, I remember having to get a job to pay for my SAT because even though we had a reduced rate, because if you hit a certain income level, you can take these tests, like AP tests and standardized tests at a reduced rate.

[00:03:05] But I still have to pay something, and so I've worked at kind of like a Chuck E. Cheese, but it wasn't Chuck E. Cheese kids place to earn money to pay for college applications and college tests.

[00:03:18] And, you know, I see that a lot with my students at University of Colorado. That just some students have really different financial situations that mean maybe they have less time for their studies, less time to participate in leader development like the programs we offer at the Center for Leadership.

[00:03:38] We try to make them really accessible for everyone, but they take time. And if you're spending your free time trying to earn money to pay for books, that can really slow down your opportunity to access that kind of programming.

[00:03:49] So that was, for me, a headwind that slowed me down. I mean, I'm sure I have all the tailwinds too, and I think I talked about this in Inclusify, someone asking me at a presentation to tell about all of the tailwinds that I have all the privilege that I have.

[00:04:04] And I really struggled because I never thought about those things, but I have just as many of those great opportunities as well.

[00:04:13] Probably the thing that made me really want to pursue education is actually that neither of my parents had a college degree.

[00:04:22] And so seeing that was really challenging for them in the workplace as more people started to have college education. The jobs that you have available to you without a college degree or some college education are limited.

[00:04:36] So when I was in, I took like an AP psych class in high school and I learned about there was a website for the American Psychological Association. This was like the beginning of the internet, Katie.

[00:04:46] I think we're similar in age, so I used my dial up, right? And I got on and there was like 10 web pages out there. And one of them was the psychology page.

[00:04:55] So I learned all about the idea that you can get a master's and a PhD and all these extra levels of education.

[00:05:01] And that just stood out to me. It's like, that's something that you will always have that no one can take that away from you, right? That education and knowledge.

[00:05:11] And I didn't know, you know, for sure that I would be a professor, but I definitely felt like I want to be in an environment where I can learn as much as possible.

[00:05:20] And then I love it so much. I think similar to you and all the work you do in higher ed, it's just so inspiring to be around, you know, this smart, optimistic, creative, innovative students that I never want to leave.

[00:05:36] So the only way I can stay forever is to keep getting degrees or be a college professor.

[00:05:40] I love it. I love it. Well, and so talking about your journey, you graduate high school, you go to school in California at one of the Claremont colleges, and then you studied leadership as an undergraduate and then went on to your master's and doctorates at Rice University in Houston.

[00:05:56] So why leadership? How did that come about as a study, an area of interest for you?

[00:06:03] I think I learned it on the APA website. But I think it was just something that fascinated me because I did a lot of leadership and I'll see this again, you know, in my own students being asked to be the captain of the team or the class president.

[00:06:20] I think I was vice president of my senior class and just taking on those roles. And I thought it was for me super interesting, like why some people tend to be leaders.

[00:06:30] And at the time I thought it was all charisma. That's like, you know, if you can be a great speaker and, you know, use all of the verbal techniques to win people over.

[00:06:42] That was leadership. We, am I undergrad, Claremont McKenna College? Every student has to do a thesis, which I think is a great exercise for anyone who's considering doing a thesis.

[00:06:53] You learn a lot about yourself at a young age trying to carry a project from start to finish. And I did it on charisma and leadership and how leaders can excite, engage their teams through charismatic communication.

[00:07:08] I would say hopefully, even though I still study leadership, which sometimes like especially in writing, Inclusify makes me wonder about maybe I should do something new after 25 years or something.

[00:07:20] But I moved a little bit away from that charisma as the important element of leadership.

[00:07:28] But at the time, that's what I saw leadership as being was like, can you capture people's attention?

[00:07:33] Right. And I think at the Betrayer Foundation, we really do think about leadership as an activity.

[00:07:38] And to me, that's what a lot of your book is about. And so I wanted to hear about how why that project like what motivated you to write it because my interpretation having read it is it's like this awesome guidebook about how to be a leader and what are those activities and behaviors that you need to exhibit.

[00:07:58] So I loved that. And so talk about why that book talk about what does that mean?

[00:08:04] I want to hear you say that in your words about what is Inclusifying and tell our audience about that.

[00:08:11] Yeah, for sure. So as I studied leadership, and this is really going back since you went back to the beginning, no matter what, I would say anyone who studies leadership is going to find disparities on race and gender today.

[00:08:25] You know, an LGBTQ status and age.

[00:08:29] And there are disparities that can't be explained by performance. And so, you know, in a lot of my early data, I would see women performing on their sales numbers or their customer satisfaction or whatever metric you can think of hard metrics,

[00:08:47] off metrics, outperforming some of their male colleagues, but not being invited into high potential programs or not getting promoted into leadership roles because they lacked presence or something like that.

[00:08:59] Some intangible quality, right? It's probably charisma. So from that I started to become more interested in that unconscious bias.

[00:09:07] Half of the leadership equation, the idea that two people can do the same thing, but that same behavior might be interpreted as competence from a male leader and as bossiness from a female leader, for example.

[00:09:22] So I started to look into that a little bit more and worked with a lot of companies and organizations to help them improve the way they're selecting, evaluating, promoting leaders, the way they're hiring to remove bias.

[00:09:35] And hopefully, you know, that would lead to great outcomes because we see pretty strong, compelling evidence about having greater diversity in the workplace drives positive outcomes.

[00:09:45] But they also found these sort of maybe to them unexpected byproducts of increasing diversity like, oh, they have higher turnover and all these other things that kind of came along with it.

[00:10:00] And when I dug a little deeper and working with those organizations, it seemed like they had done the diversity part, but they hadn't really tackled this idea of inclusion in people's experience once they got into leadership roles or into an organization.

[00:10:17] And at the time, at least the time I wrote the book proposal for Inclusify, there was not really any books out there on inclusion.

[00:10:26] Today you can find many, but that's that was the drive to write the book was like, well, people need to know that when it comes to diversity and inclusion, diversity is the representation.

[00:10:39] Inclusion is the experience.

[00:10:40] And so I wanted to write about inclusion and then Inclusify the word came about because I think when people think of inclusion or someone's included, they often would say no joke.

[00:10:54] Well, you're here.

[00:10:56] So you're included. You're in the room, right? Thus you must be included.

[00:11:00] And that just being there, really, there's a large disconnect between someone being present and having the experience that they can be themselves and really belong.

[00:11:10] And so that's why I try to make it that I thought would make it sound more action oriented to inclusive.

[00:11:15] And the good part about making up a word is you're the top search on there you go Google because you're the only inclusive out there.

[00:11:23] And so that's what I think of Inclusify is like being action oriented, just like say acting in a way that will create feelings of uniqueness and belonging on your teams.

[00:11:36] Right. And those are the two words that really you want both of those things that people have a sense of that they're their own person that uniqueness piece.

[00:11:44] But also it's a different inclusion is different from belonging.

[00:11:47] And so I resonated with that.

[00:11:49] And I love that you talk about predictable mistakes that leaders can make in their maybe their good intentions, but there's some common archetypes that people become.

[00:12:01] And those archetypes include cultural crusader, the white knight, the meritocracy manager, the shepherd, the team leader and the optimist.

[00:12:09] So how can we begin to recognize the myths and perceptions that drive these behaviors?

[00:12:14] Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:12:15] That was for me the really fun part about writing the book and doing that research is one I felt like it was uplifting to see how many leaders really wanted to get this right.

[00:12:25] You know, it's easy to sit there and think like, well, they just don't care.

[00:12:30] And that's why we lack feelings of inclusion in the workplace.

[00:12:33] And I really, you know, experienced the opposite.

[00:12:36] I think a lot of most leaders truly deeply care about creating an environment where people feel included.

[00:12:43] They want people to be successful.

[00:12:45] They want to get the most out of their people to get different perspectives.

[00:12:49] Who doesn't want that?

[00:12:51] But how you go about it can kind of miss the mark because those two things that you mentioned, the uniqueness and belonging.

[00:12:57] And this is based on a theory called optimal distinctiveness theory.

[00:13:01] Just the idea that for humans we we want to be unique.

[00:13:05] And I have, you know, I have a middle schooler, Katie, and I, you know, seeing all her friends.

[00:13:10] I'm like, I can see that desire to actually be different from each other and from one another.

[00:13:15] And we also want to belong so desperately, especially in middle school.

[00:13:19] So I know, right?

[00:13:20] So desperately.

[00:13:21] But I mean, even in adults, I would love to think that that ends at 13, but it persists.

[00:13:28] We all want to be part of something bigger than ourselves and we want to feel connected and accepted for who we are.

[00:13:35] And so that's where those two, if you put those two things together, uniqueness and belonging, you get like the classic social psychology, two by two matrix, right?

[00:13:43] Where you can have people who are just bad at both.

[00:13:47] They don't create an environment where people can be their unique selves and they don't really foster belonging or you can be high on both.

[00:13:54] And that's where you get the archetypes, because there were some leaders as I did this research who were really good at belonging.

[00:14:01] They had a name for everyone who works for me is called whatever they wore matching clothes.

[00:14:07] Right.

[00:14:08] They had similar ways of speaking and they had language and acronyms that only they knew.

[00:14:14] And so, yeah, of course, everyone belongs.

[00:14:17] But they miss out on the fact that we don't all just want to be the same.

[00:14:22] And we're not like it's just never, never true.

[00:14:25] Right.

[00:14:26] And if you try to make everyone be the same, the unintended consequence is often that you miss out on some of that unique perspective that someone might have within them or bring to a conversation.

[00:14:38] But they don't because in a super high belonging environment, you don't dissent and give that much needed alternative view devil's advocate perspective.

[00:14:49] And there's also the opposite of, you know, we want everyone to be unique and we're super.

[00:14:54] This is that was a culture crusader.

[00:14:56] The white knight cares deeply about diversity.

[00:14:59] Something has struck them.

[00:15:01] They're on board.

[00:15:02] They're like, wow, I, you know, many of the leaders I interviewed said I had a daughter and I realized this matters.

[00:15:10] I'm going to do this and I'm going to make sure that everyone's unique perspective is highlighted to a fault that people didn't come together as an cohesive group because we can't just be unique.

[00:15:23] Right. We also have to work together.

[00:15:25] So those are just two of the extremes on the two by two matrix.

[00:15:29] Right. Well, and I know that everybody should read this.

[00:15:32] So I'm just saying that.

[00:15:34] But you have very specific suggestions for each of these different types of strategies, right?

[00:15:39] To be an inclusifier.

[00:15:40] But if you could boil it down to just a couple quick tips for folks about what are some of the maybe most high impact thing you could be you could do as an inclusifier.

[00:15:50] What would you say?

[00:15:51] Oh, see, that's hard boiling stuff down and giving a quick answer is not my strong suit.

[00:15:55] I'll say one of my favorites is amplifying.

[00:15:59] And maybe this is comes to mind because we're both sitting here with microphones in front of us, because I use the analogy of passing a microphone and amplifying voices.

[00:16:09] So if you want to bring out unique perspectives, one way to really do that is to ensure that everyone's contributing during meetings.

[00:16:18] And I found, you know, looking at the interviews I did and data I collected, people could feel really good at work when they're doing their job.

[00:16:27] They're working with their customers or clients.

[00:16:30] They're killing it, right? They're building whatever they do.

[00:16:33] And then they go into a meeting and there's like clicks or people chatting about their weekend or when you try to contribute or speak, someone speaks over you or interrupts you or you can't get a word in edgewise.

[00:16:46] And then maybe after the meeting, people are like, hey, are you going to grab lunch? Do you want to grab lunch?

[00:16:51] And you don't feel invited into that.

[00:16:53] And all of a sudden, you're like, oh, wow, I'm not I don't feel like I'm included.

[00:16:58] I'm excluded. So even though meetings hopefully comprise a small amount of our work days, they have a big impact on that feeling of inclusion.

[00:17:08] And so using the meeting time to really elevate all voices in the room.

[00:17:13] And it could be like very structural, right?

[00:17:16] Making sure let's have everyone contribute a thought or I encourage people to really send out a meeting agenda in advance.

[00:17:26] Like what you're going to cover. This gives people time to think through what they're going to say.

[00:17:33] You can tell people to even send their responses in earlier so you can look at where people are going.

[00:17:38] So if you have people who don't contribute, you can say, hey, you had a really great idea, Katie, that you sent in advance.

[00:17:44] Can I pass through the microphone to hear about it?

[00:17:47] So you're elevating all the voices in the room.

[00:17:50] I think that one's huge. Like if I just had to pick one thing, it would be that.

[00:17:54] And then maybe the other one that builds off of it and sticks with my analogy, because we're sitting under big spotlights,

[00:18:00] is really thinking about who we are giving credit to and celebrating because research shows big disparities in who gets seen at work for the same contributions,

[00:18:14] who we celebrate and not feeling like you're appreciated.

[00:18:17] It's one of the biggest drivers of a lack of inclusion and letting people know, hey, you did a great job.

[00:18:23] You made this sale, taught this class, wrote this book, whatever it might be,

[00:18:29] helps people like, of course you feel included. Right? You're being recognized.

[00:18:34] And anyway, we all need more recognition at work.

[00:18:37] Right. Absolutely. Well, I want to change topics just a little and shift to one of your other hats.

[00:18:45] Now the director of CU Boulder's Center for Leadership that was founded in 2020.

[00:18:51] And as an advisory board member, I know about your passion and commitment.

[00:18:55] And now expertise, we're so happy to have you on board to advance that work in your academic discipline.

[00:19:02] But talk about the Center for Leadership.

[00:19:04] Like what's your vision about how we're going to connect resources and research across the university to advance leadership?

[00:19:10] Oh, OK. OK. So I'm happy to talk about this, especially with you,

[00:19:13] because Katie has been so instrumental in supporting the Center for Leadership on both advice, your work, your time,

[00:19:21] your contributions and all the ways are huge.

[00:19:24] And we I can't say enough about how impactful you've been for Center for Leadership and the Betrayer Foundation more broadly.

[00:19:31] But OK, what are we doing? So we know that University of Colorado attracts top students.

[00:19:39] They're innovative, they're creative, they're entrepreneurial, they're leaders.

[00:19:42] Time magazine recognized University of Colorado this year as one of the top schools in the country for developing leaders.

[00:19:49] And we sit with Ivy League schools on this list of 100.

[00:19:53] So we know we have the talent.

[00:19:55] And so what we want to do at Center for Leadership is to provide additional resources to help students achieve what they're meant to be when it becomes when it comes to being a leader.

[00:20:04] And so we have programs, you know, coaching and mentoring and workshops that students can go to.

[00:20:11] But we really reach the vast majority of our students through our 33 campus affiliates.

[00:20:17] So we are one. And maybe you might say an umbrella of these other programs like the president's leadership class, PLC,

[00:20:25] lead scholars at the business school, the engineering leadership program, programs all across campus that are really focused on developing their student audience in a way that makes sense for them.

[00:20:38] So if you're in school of education, maybe it's different than school of business.

[00:20:41] And what we want to do is lean on the research that we know of and conduct our own research to help maximize the impact of those programs.

[00:20:51] I love it. So excited to be part of that.

[00:20:53] And I know you're in addition to researching your teaching and I know you have to scooch back to Boulder to teach this afternoon.

[00:21:00] Tell us what do you like most about teaching and also maybe what is frustrating about it?

[00:21:05] Oh, yeah. So I haven't really taught a class in a while.

[00:21:09] And I told my classes the last class I taught was online during the pandemic.

[00:21:13] And what I really like is the human connection.

[00:21:16] And then also what I had of what I said when I started is that the idea of being around people who are optimistic and it's for me, it's really inspiring.

[00:21:28] It's easy as you know, as we go along in our careers and lives to become maybe like more negative about the world.

[00:21:36] And when I see just how much students care about, you know, the environment, politics, doing the right thing, making a positive impact.

[00:21:46] I'm like, oh, my God, we're going to be OK. Right.

[00:21:49] We have smart, talented people who really care about this world that we all live in.

[00:21:54] And so that's the part that I love.

[00:21:56] The frustrating part for me, I'll say right now is the fact that so many of the students, I'll say in my class now, really took a huge hit in their lives with the pandemic.

[00:22:05] And so, you know, the last class I taught was during the pandemic.

[00:22:08] I thought, man, this is going to be hard for students to really overcome.

[00:22:13] And I see that with my own kids too, like their learning was kind of interrupted.

[00:22:17] But they also went through this trauma that we all went through together and they're resilient.

[00:22:23] You know, people are resilient. I hope I'm glad they're resilient.

[00:22:26] But I had students do presentations and a lot of them talked about, you know, the real impact that had on their lives.

[00:22:33] And I find that I find it frustrating that we, you know, it was a global pandemic.

[00:22:37] It's not every country was affected by it.

[00:22:40] And I think CU Boulder did a great job in their pandemic response.

[00:22:43] And some of these students weren't even at CU Boulder.

[00:22:46] But I find it frustrating that they had to experience that and that we, you know, maybe we weren't as prepared as we could have been.

[00:22:54] It's easy to say now for these Black Swan events.

[00:22:57] But I know in the last wish that they could have been at this place without having to endure that.

[00:23:03] Right. Yes. Regrets all the way around for that.

[00:23:07] And we learned some things along the way too, I know.

[00:23:09] But I wanted to ask you, I think one of the biggest leadership challenges that I have faced in my life is being a mother.

[00:23:17] And so knowing that you have kids at home too, how does that show up in your world?

[00:23:21] Do you do you agree that that's been a big leadership challenge?

[00:23:24] Yes, 100%. And when I before I had kids, when I would research leadership, people would often say that in one way or another.

[00:23:31] Like a lot of women would say that.

[00:23:33] And I thought, because I had kids later in life, like, I wonder why that is.

[00:23:37] But man, patience, empathy, listening.

[00:23:43] Those are just three of the huge skills that I have learned from having my own kids is like,

[00:23:50] you can't just bark orders at children.

[00:23:55] Right. And I try to get people either, but you really learn it.

[00:23:58] And then listening. Like, I have so much better at listening now because I thought I was listening before.

[00:24:05] But I think I was just waiting to speak.

[00:24:07] But when you really deeply love someone, you're listening because you like super care about them.

[00:24:15] So I've tried to bring that listening, you know, to my own leadership.

[00:24:19] I'm sure I have room for improvement, but we all do, I'm sure.

[00:24:23] But thanks for indulging me there because I know that that's a huge that shows up for me in a big way.

[00:24:28] Yeah. In addition to these wonderful jobs that we have.

[00:24:31] And I'm curious back to just your career.

[00:24:34] You have had the opportunity to be alongside a lot of incredible companies in addition to influencing students in the classroom and being a mom in your own home.

[00:24:44] And I know that you also presented at the 2016 White House Summit on Diversity in Corporate America.

[00:24:50] I don't know if that's the highlight or the question is what has been some of those highlights for you in your career?

[00:24:55] Oh, yeah. You know, I loved going to the Obama White House and talking about diversity in corporate America.

[00:25:02] I thought that was amazing. But probably the two biggest highlights.

[00:25:07] Well, maybe I'll say, can I give you three? Yes, absolutely.

[00:25:10] One is working with NASA on trying to remove gender bias from their application process.

[00:25:17] Specifically, we did. We were focused on the Hubble Space Telescope Time Allocation Committee.

[00:25:22] It's like very niche, like some one thing that they do.

[00:25:25] But we came up with a process to remove bias that has now been implemented directorate wide at NASA.

[00:25:32] That's like, wow, like really impactful to me.

[00:25:37] Similarly, I did a big project on safety leadership in the construction industry.

[00:25:42] And we created a module to train leaders to be better at promoting safety with some like really, you know, with empathy, with listening, with like focusing on safety.

[00:25:53] And that was adopted by the OSHA 30, which is the Occupational Safety and Health Administration's 30 hour required training course as one of the modules that people could elect to take.

[00:26:03] And so, you know, I think in the first year, 70,000 people took it.

[00:26:07] And now it's been out there for, I don't know how long, a long time, 10 years.

[00:26:13] And then the third one is right now I'm working with the National Football League to support them in their diversity and inclusion efforts.

[00:26:19] And I think that is super exciting because I feel like sports is just a very visible microcosm of what we see in all other areas of the world.

[00:26:30] But also, and that's really the main important point.

[00:26:34] OK, I think what they're doing is really important.

[00:26:36] They have great leadership.

[00:26:37] I love the work.

[00:26:38] I love my team on that.

[00:26:39] But I also get to go to the Super Bowl.

[00:26:41] Oh, my gosh.

[00:26:42] You're lucky.

[00:26:43] Yeah, very excited.

[00:26:44] Sounds great.

[00:26:45] Oh, that I have to say that feels highly.

[00:26:47] I went last year as well in Arizona.

[00:26:49] Yes.

[00:26:50] Oh, that's very fun.

[00:26:51] Good.

[00:26:52] Well, as a wrapping, just I've got the lightning round questions for you.

[00:26:54] And the first one is what's your favorite Colorado hobby?

[00:26:58] OK, I struggle with this because I'm not very outdoorsy or athletic.

[00:27:01] So I'm going to say hiking.

[00:27:02] But it really more resembles like walking, walking.

[00:27:06] Very good.

[00:27:07] It's beautiful to be outdoors in Colorado anytime.

[00:27:10] OK, next favorite Colorado landmark.

[00:27:13] Oh, I think I'll say a Bronco Stadium.

[00:27:16] Oh, very nice.

[00:27:17] Good.

[00:27:18] What action hero do you most identify with?

[00:27:21] Indiana Jones.

[00:27:22] Can I say that?

[00:27:23] Because she was a pressure.

[00:27:24] Yes, absolutely.

[00:27:25] I hadn't thought about that.

[00:27:26] And also so many other things.

[00:27:28] Right?

[00:27:29] Absolutely.

[00:27:30] And then what are you currently binging right now?

[00:27:32] Like, is there a show, a podcast or a book or something that you're like can't get enough of?

[00:27:37] Obviously your podcast.

[00:27:38] I'm sure.

[00:27:39] Yes.

[00:27:40] Right.

[00:27:41] And I've just been reading this book called Wellness.

[00:27:44] It's the author is Nathan Hill and it's fiction.

[00:27:48] I don't read a lot of fiction.

[00:27:50] I'm more of a nonfiction person, but highly recommend.

[00:27:53] Oh, good.

[00:27:54] I'll add that to the list for sure.

[00:27:56] Well, appreciate the time.

[00:27:58] And I just personally am so grateful for your impact, not just on our awesome students at CU Boulder, but in Colorado and gosh, the world.

[00:28:08] I mean, NASA, NFL, all these different things.

[00:28:11] And I just will say I got a ton out of Inclusify.

[00:28:15] So we're so, so lucky to have you at CU Boulder doing your great work and running the Center for Leadership as the director.

[00:28:22] So thank you very much.

[00:28:23] Thank you for joining Colorado Leadership Stories, where we hope to inspire the next generation of Colorado community builders, doers and difference makers.

[00:28:34] Colorado Leadership Stories is presented by The Betcher Foundation.

[00:28:38] The Betcher Foundation supports Colorado by empowering leaders and communities with tools to tackle challenges and pursue opportunities, building a better state for everyone.

[00:28:49] With an 85 plus year legacy of giving back, we're committed to amplifying our impact for future generations.

[00:28:57] That's the spirit of Betcher.

[00:29:19] Thank you.