Morgan Law and Steve Scribner

[00:00:00] Just the simplicity of it compared to other standards, I think it's been really appealing

[00:00:10] both from on the design side but also the air tightness level that has to be hit with

[00:00:15] the standard is like a real challenge for builders and so if there's builders that

[00:00:20] aren't interested in doing that, that's kind of a sign in terms of like their level

[00:00:26] of quality, their interests around green building whatever it is but the right builders get really

[00:00:31] excited about it.

[00:00:32] Hi, hello, hello, hello, hello and welcome to ARCHITECT-ING.

[00:00:42] Hi, welcome to ARCHITECT-ING. I'm Rebecca Wagner here with the host Adam. Hey Adam,

[00:00:48] who's on the podcast today?

[00:00:51] Hey, I just saw this thing on LinkedIn where it said that podcast hosts need to do a better

[00:01:00] job of introducing themselves in their podcast because we assume that every person listens

[00:01:07] to every episode but some people, this might be your first episode here.

[00:01:14] Yeah, Adam, who are you?

[00:01:16] I'm to ARCHITECT-ING. I am Adam Wagner, I am an architect, I have a new architecture

[00:01:24] firm called Hi-Lo Buffalo and I teach at the University of Colorado Denver and this is

[00:01:35] my more talented wife, Rebecca Wagner. Who are you?

[00:01:41] Oh, I just do the intros.

[00:01:43] You just does the intros? I can only afford to pay her to do the intros because she's

[00:01:49] the young architect of the year for Colorado and works at the firm Gensler so I can't

[00:01:56] afford her billing rates to do the whole podcast, just these intros.

[00:02:01] So what was your question?

[00:02:03] Who's on the podcast today?

[00:02:06] We have Morgan Law and Steve Scribner of Shape Architecture. You know them?

[00:02:13] I know of them.

[00:02:15] They along with you swept the awards that they had this year, they had a lot of projects

[00:02:25] win awards. They've been grinding with Shape Architecture for a while, they have a pretty

[00:02:33] interesting story that they will get into of who was the initial founder and then someone

[00:02:39] left and the other person took over and came back and blah blah blah. You'll hear that

[00:02:45] one, a good story, a pretty unique story there. But yeah, I mean these are just

[00:02:52] two really solid architects who really think about craft and think about the way

[00:03:02] building solid projects, buildings, houses, some small commercial spaces but doing a lot

[00:03:10] with like passive house and thinking about sustainability in different ways and really

[00:03:16] building out their small firm.

[00:03:19] Cool, I'm excited to hear it.

[00:03:20] Yeah, good stuff. And like I said, yeah, go check out my new architecture firm,

[00:03:26] high low, buff low dot co. That's the website. I'm doing a lot of design consulting these

[00:03:33] days. So if you're just sitting in your basement of your one person architecture firm or maybe

[00:03:41] you have a larger architecture firm but are just looking for new ideas, hit me up,

[00:03:46] schedule a meeting or coffee and let's talk about how I can help you and enhance

[00:03:53] the things you're already doing. So check that out.

[00:03:56] Cool.

[00:03:57] Sounds good. See ya. Enjoy.

[00:03:59] Hey, this episode is brought to you in part by Signature Doors and Windows and Modern

[00:04:05] Denver Magazine now onto the show.

[00:04:09] Thanks for coming in. How many times have we scheduled this?

[00:04:14] We tried. I think it's only number three. And it's only because of the specialness

[00:04:20] of this place because Morgan was going to call in. We were going to be able to hold our appointment.

[00:04:25] But Morgan was going to be in Leadville and he wouldn't have the bright lights to keep

[00:04:29] him.

[00:04:30] Yeah, we heard rumors about the new studio.

[00:04:32] They're going to hold out.

[00:04:34] Yeah.

[00:04:35] So you live in Leadville, right?

[00:04:37] And then what's your week look like?

[00:04:40] Oh man, good question. So yeah, I'm up there and then I come down once a week,

[00:04:44] every week. And I come down usually on Wednesday and stay overnight, stay at Steve's

[00:04:50] house, with him and his family, and then go back up Thursday.

[00:04:54] Just pull an all nighter, all nighters and then go back and see the rest of the weekend.

[00:04:59] It turns into that every Wednesday night.

[00:05:01] How did it get to be midnight?

[00:05:02] Yeah, just study home every week.

[00:05:04] Like sleepovers.

[00:05:05] It is great though because if Morgan lived in Denver, we wouldn't have that time

[00:05:11] where we're drinking beers and getting honest and into some of the stuff that

[00:05:18] we do.

[00:05:19] Yeah, we sort of don't have time for it in the day.

[00:05:22] I didn't think about that because that is really important.

[00:05:25] You know, like I had this other partner for the last two years and we broke up.

[00:05:30] And that was probably the hardest thing where you never had that just like down time to

[00:05:37] drink a beer or just talk about something.

[00:05:39] It's always like, hey let's jump on Zoom and I've got half hour or whatever.

[00:05:44] Right, and everyone's distracted and working on different stuff.

[00:05:47] Yeah, it's hard to...

[00:05:49] And you know, we're good friends and we're still good friends but I heard a thing of if you

[00:05:58] need like good experiences to overdo one bad experience.

[00:06:02] And it's hard to have those many good just over Zoom or email or something.

[00:06:07] I can't imagine that fully remote.

[00:06:11] We would never have designed our practice to have evolved the way it has but I do feel

[00:06:17] like it's kind of like best case.

[00:06:19] You know Morgan actually gets to get work done three days a week.

[00:06:22] Yeah, exactly, totally.

[00:06:24] He's only driving two days a week.

[00:06:27] Yeah, yeah, driving all day.

[00:06:29] Yeah, totally.

[00:06:30] Because how long is that drive?

[00:06:31] It's like an hour and a half.

[00:06:33] Oh okay.

[00:06:34] Yeah, it's not bad.

[00:06:35] I mean I don't mess with the rush hour or anything.

[00:06:37] Yeah.

[00:06:38] It's nice.

[00:06:40] There's always a dozen people you probably should call but you never make time to do it

[00:06:45] while if you have an hour and a half drive he actually makes those phone calls.

[00:06:49] So does that go the other way?

[00:06:50] Are you going up there much?

[00:06:52] No.

[00:06:53] I mean you don't have as nice a basement for him.

[00:06:56] Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:57] Yeah, the crawl space is not really...

[00:06:59] Actually that is not true.

[00:07:00] It's way better accommodations than when it's in extra bedroom.

[00:07:04] What prompted that move up to Leadville?

[00:07:06] That's a good question.

[00:07:07] It's kind of a long story.

[00:07:08] How far back do you want to go?

[00:07:10] Yeah, most recently my wife got a job up there and we were actually living in Washington State

[00:07:15] at the time.

[00:07:16] And so pre-pandemic I wouldn't have thought that Leadville could work and kind of keep

[00:07:22] a functioning business in Denver.

[00:07:24] But yeah, I was like basically came back and I was talking to him about coming back

[00:07:30] to the firm and bagged and pleaded to see if he would let me back.

[00:07:34] He took me back.

[00:07:36] Just really nice of him.

[00:07:38] I've only broken my heart once.

[00:07:41] So yeah, we...

[00:07:42] And it's been great.

[00:07:43] I figured I'd be up there working on stuff down here but I think I'm maybe still the

[00:07:47] only architect in the county.

[00:07:49] So that's not a big county but...

[00:07:51] Yeah, all right.

[00:07:52] Yeah, it's cool to be working up there and just be a little bit closer to some

[00:07:55] of the communities there.

[00:07:56] Well, we're getting ahead of ourselves here.

[00:07:59] Your wife will get mad at me if I don't ask you the hard question first.

[00:08:04] Yeah, Stacey already had to do it with Super Bloom.

[00:08:06] But so yeah, so who are you guys?

[00:08:10] How are you going to answer that?

[00:08:12] Go ahead.

[00:08:14] I guess I'm a manor.

[00:08:16] I'm from Maine.

[00:08:17] You can take the boy out of the state but to me that's like I'm like a do-it-yourself

[00:08:24] or a tinkerer.

[00:08:26] I like the road less traveled or the up being off the beaten path.

[00:08:30] I like following the game trails when hiking, you know, bushwhacking.

[00:08:34] I can fix anything.

[00:08:36] My wife, she says I like things that suck.

[00:08:40] I don't think they suck.

[00:08:42] But I guess it's sort of like yeah, if something is going to be hard or uncomfortable

[00:08:48] like maybe it's for me.

[00:08:51] Morgan?

[00:08:52] Yeah, I guess...

[00:08:53] You like the easy things in life?

[00:08:55] Yeah, exactly.

[00:08:56] I don't really like things that suck.

[00:09:00] Yeah, I guess I'm a frugal New Englander as well from growing up but yeah, I'm a father,

[00:09:09] husband, architect, passionate guy about design and getting outside.

[00:09:16] So where did you grow up then?

[00:09:18] New Hampshire.

[00:09:19] Just right down the road from this guy.

[00:09:23] New Hampshire.

[00:09:24] You're all yourself on New England, huh?

[00:09:26] There's all these New England jokes.

[00:09:29] It's way too far away from me.

[00:09:30] I've grown up in Kansas.

[00:09:31] I'm like I think that's English.

[00:09:33] I think it's a joke.

[00:09:34] I don't know but...

[00:09:35] Yeah, it's totally...

[00:09:36] There are some levels there.

[00:09:37] It's like I've been driving for two hours and I've been through three states.

[00:09:41] What's going on here?

[00:09:42] Right.

[00:09:43] So yeah, New Hampshire was the same sort of like game trails, like hiking outdoor

[00:09:52] stuff.

[00:09:53] Yeah, there was a lot of that.

[00:09:54] There was a lot of like just growing up in the woods and building stuff and having free

[00:09:59] time, unstructured playtime and very rural setting and yeah, it's great.

[00:10:06] What were you around?

[00:10:07] What did your parents do or did you have much of a connection to say architectures early

[00:10:13] on?

[00:10:14] Yeah, no not really.

[00:10:15] Yeah, again, it was just like there was a lot of fort building.

[00:10:18] I remember when I was like 12 or something about this three-story fort.

[00:10:23] And I was down there with different levels on it and everything.

[00:10:24] And like eventually brought candles in there to like light up and the whole thing burned

[00:10:28] down.

[00:10:29] Very, very tragic.

[00:10:31] Ever since you've been really in a building building.

[00:10:33] Yeah, exactly.

[00:10:34] Totally.

[00:10:35] Right.

[00:10:36] Yes.

[00:10:37] Learned a lesson quickly.

[00:10:38] Exactly.

[00:10:39] So yeah.

[00:10:40] No.

[00:10:41] You know my mom was a teacher and my dad was like not only in the picture when

[00:10:45] I was younger.

[00:10:46] So yeah, I don't know.

[00:10:48] I don't know where...

[00:10:49] I did get very much into art and I studied art and undergraduate, art and sociology.

[00:10:53] So yeah, from a very early age I was always drawing and stuff like that.

[00:10:57] So I think it eventually emerged and I think if maybe if I had grown up somewhere where there was like

[00:11:02] architecture had more of a presence I would have discovered it but it just wasn't.

[00:11:06] Maybe it'd be a good architect today.

[00:11:08] Yeah exactly, totally.

[00:11:09] He still doesn't forgive me for leaving him.

[00:11:11] Yeah totally, it's sensitive.

[00:11:13] Well I feel like even, you know, this is going to be I think you guys might be the 70th episode

[00:11:21] but like something around there.

[00:11:23] But there's very few people I'd say who had an understanding of what architecture was early on.

[00:11:28] You know it's not a, you might know that one architect or something and maybe see something.

[00:11:36] So then how did architecture come into the picture?

[00:11:38] What would you do for undergrad?

[00:11:41] So yeah I studied drawing and sculpture and sociology at the small liberal arts school

[00:11:47] in Pacific Northwest in Portland.

[00:11:50] And yeah that was great and I, you know after leaving that I was like I'm gonna be an artist

[00:11:55] and it's all gonna work out.

[00:11:56] I was like what is that?

[00:11:58] What are they telling you is going to happen after that degree?

[00:12:01] Yeah exactly.

[00:12:03] Yeah some questionable choices but yeah no I started, I got like a show in Portland

[00:12:08] and it was like working as an artist and you know.

[00:12:11] Portland, Maine?

[00:12:12] Portland, Oregon.

[00:12:13] Yeah sorry so I was out there and you know I was filling it in with various jobs.

[00:12:17] Some of them were construction and so those two things just kind of kept going and

[00:12:23] I actually found my way out to Boston so I was working at the ICA in Boston,

[00:12:28] the art museum there and building installations and.

[00:12:31] In the new building?

[00:12:32] It was actually both so it was like just as that we're still in the old building

[00:12:36] so I was working there and then basically transitioned to the new building and then.

[00:12:40] So during that time yeah I was like still doing art but building stuff you know I saw

[00:12:45] an inconvenient truth Al Gore's movie and I was like well shit these buildings are terrible.

[00:12:50] Like somebody should do something you know and so I kind of thought that it would might

[00:12:55] you know blend all these different things that I was working on and yeah applied to schools and

[00:13:00] went from there.

[00:13:01] So then yeah Steve you're growing up in Maine, living out in the wilderness,

[00:13:08] six days a week coming back once now.

[00:13:11] Yeah what are you growing up around?

[00:13:12] What's life like?

[00:13:15] I grew up with a healthy disrespect for architects.

[00:13:19] I was like my dad is a math professor but he actually he moved to the town I grew up in

[00:13:25] not with a job and so to like make ends meet he was buying old like really crappy

[00:13:30] farmhouses and like flipping them but he wouldn't call it flipping them renovating

[00:13:36] and selling in like super on the cheap.

[00:13:39] Buy a house for like five thousand dollars.

[00:13:41] They literally bought the house I grew up in for seven thousand dollars.

[00:13:43] Wow.

[00:13:44] And so but these just absolutely marvelous New England farmhouses like to this day there's

[00:13:50] not any kind of architecture that speaks to me more than easily like the house I grew up in

[00:13:55] these kind of sagging roofs but perfect proportions just like a kind of like salt box kind of

[00:14:02] form or I mean my dad calls it a cape but just like you know a classic gable simple

[00:14:06] simple form there's always like a classic two-story gable a one-story kitchen and then

[00:14:12] a link and then a barn and it's a pretty you know there's like mix and match on that formula

[00:14:20] but they're just they're like a long lost friend you know these old houses that just have so much

[00:14:25] soul and character and they're made by hand and they have like two foot wide boards windscoting

[00:14:31] like there's no very little drywall never there wouldn't have been drywall originally

[00:14:35] house I grew up in my dad had renovated and it had you know drywall ceilings between these

[00:14:40] hand-hewn beams and the one I grew up in was built by a farmer not a builder so it's like

[00:14:44] wasn't built very well but it still has this like they just did they just like did it so

[00:14:50] pragmatically and beautifully and it's just like so well situated in the land that um

[00:14:55] yeah as a kid I remember really disliking minor architecture but I was around that

[00:15:00] like experience of building and my dad was always fixing up the house or working on a

[00:15:04] workhouse until he got a full-time job and wasn't doing that as often but

[00:15:08] so I always I thought I would maybe want to be a builder when I was growing up

[00:15:12] somebody ever thought somebody suggested I was like in an art class or like you should be an architect

[00:15:16] and I was like architect it's like oh I mean I am yeah I mean that that was like a big statement of

[00:15:22] saying like I grew up like disdaining architects but it wasn't like you you came in contact with

[00:15:27] any architect it wasn't like somebody like built an architect built a house next to you or like

[00:15:31] tore down your home and built something new but it's but it was sort of more of the

[00:15:37] like I guess if you were growing up and looking at what sort of avant-garde architecture was

[00:15:41] that's where you were yeah so foreign well and then the new houses that were getting built

[00:15:45] they weren't really architected there was like new really in rural Maine pretty crappy right so um no

[00:15:51] offense maynards but at the time you know like they're just gonna lose that whole audience

[00:15:57] we already lost on the tv yeah yeah uh so that wasn't really something that was interesting

[00:16:03] but I think construction or engineering I ended up wanting to be an engineer and went to

[00:16:09] college in Connecticut to and I was a physics major because that's sort of like I really just

[00:16:15] liked figuring things out and understanding how stuff worked and I didn't know what it wanted to be but

[00:16:19] understanding how the world worked seemed great so that's how I so I ended up doing that and

[00:16:27] then while I was there I took a class in architecture because it seemed like the best way to get my

[00:16:32] arts credit that I needed my one required like humanities and arts thing and uh I really liked

[00:16:38] it and I really liked building models especially I like I remember my projects were horribly uncreative

[00:16:44] but I was just gables over and over yeah I remember we had like the building a cardboard

[00:16:50] chair assignment and I built like this gable old wingback chair I bet you would like in a from

[00:16:56] like a smoking loud 20s or something it was like so not well designed but it was really robust

[00:17:03] just like those beams in your house exactly the same as your little farmer's chair yeah

[00:17:09] but my professor suggested after at the end of that she was like well like I got a B or something

[00:17:15] she's like but you're really gonna make models like I could probably get you an internship as

[00:17:19] a model maker I was like oh my god I could get paid to do that that I can't think of the more

[00:17:24] fun thing she's like kind of paid as a stretch and I was just like it was just like okay that's

[00:17:31] what I'm gonna do for this year after I graduate well I figure out what I'm gonna do not that I

[00:17:35] want it because I knew I didn't want to do physics it was just like too myopic how far into physics

[00:17:39] would you get I have a bachelor of arts so it's like pretty light duty I mean it gets it was

[00:17:46] really stinking hard it was very challenging mental work but um I never was an expert in

[00:17:53] anything any one thing but I did know that I didn't want to be an expert in any one part

[00:17:57] of physics it's just like yeah it's too zoomed in so being a model maker sounded great so I was like

[00:18:05] okay cool like I'm ready for that connection I'll take that job and she was like all right it's for

[00:18:10] this company called Caesar Peli and they're in New Haven really and I was like I will never live

[00:18:15] in New Haven never I'm a painter and I was like I've read all these like western stories

[00:18:23] like I used to love reading western novels in Maine is Connecticut west

[00:18:29] in the west of the West of New Haven is not checking that box so I had a friend that lived in Colorado

[00:18:37] that I decided I would like go stay with her for the summer and just live in Colorado and I would

[00:18:43] get that model making job so I like when I graduated from college I remember I went on this road

[00:18:48] trip with my girlfriend at the time and I drove to like every single town in the greater west from

[00:18:55] Oregon and Montana Idaho Colorado and applied for jobs in all the towns that I thought I could want

[00:19:00] to live in and everyone basically laughed me away they're like as a model maker as a model

[00:19:05] maker did you take the job with Caesar Peli no no just hauling his massive heavy chair around in

[00:19:16] his back of his I had this like horribly crappy portfolio that I worked on forever and it was

[00:19:21] like a physical piece of paper in it and um and yeah it's like there's a couple I almost got a job

[00:19:27] offer at a couple places um where they were like well we need an office manager um you take out

[00:19:32] the trash yeah but I did end up I had lived for a summer in Durango before I graduated so I ended

[00:19:40] up back in Durango it was like I guess I'll work for the construction company I worked for

[00:19:44] there again but I called all the architects in the phone book there throughout of like why not one

[00:19:51] last try and I actually the last person that the last phone number in the book wasn't the last one

[00:19:57] but I like missed the second one go back to it he ended up like somebody had quit given a two week

[00:20:03] notice he needed somebody cheap so he hired me and I was able to deny me as a model maker

[00:20:08] and that's how I ended up as an architect and that's how I'm here right yeah exactly um great guy

[00:20:16] firm is great um who was it was bad timing for him and good timing for me uh it's it's

[00:20:22] brookie architecture and planning okay Dean brookie out of Durango so it was like really an

[00:20:26] awesome experience I I felt so lucky to be part of being an architect knowing that I had no right

[00:20:33] to me and uh yeah do you have more sympathy for those portfolios that come in now that uh

[00:20:41] I just have one chair and like uh no they're all better than framing they are all better than mine

[00:20:46] yeah it's amazing that actually I do have that experience sometimes especially like in the first

[00:20:51] couple years when I would see um resumes to work for shape and being like wow these are all

[00:20:58] way better than my resume ever was in my portfolio and these people are having a hard time getting

[00:21:04] into it they want to work for us like yeah well and it's funny at least at least you're saying

[00:21:10] that you knew you didn't quite deserve to be there like I've had an experience like right

[00:21:16] did I did seven years of architecture school and then was working in Mexico City for Tatiana

[00:21:22] Babala and wow just surprisingly somebody like there's a high school student who only applied to

[00:21:30] Harvard didn't get in needed something to do over the summer and had a friend of a friend at her

[00:21:36] office and so she came into work and I'm sitting there after like two master's degrees and I'm

[00:21:42] cutting just cutting foam like making models and she's from the same thing next to me and she

[00:21:47] and there's one thing where she was using something in CAD I guess she knew CAD and

[00:21:51] and she was like how do I print this like at quarter scale whatever and I was like I don't

[00:21:56] I don't know like it like I had to figure it out every time I have Revit I don't want to I need that

[00:22:01] and she was like oh I see what an Ivy League degree does for you or something I was like

[00:22:06] like what am I doing with my life she's doing the exact same thing as me at this high school

[00:22:11] but she did end up going to the AA and like I think she's a really good architect now but so

[00:22:27] hey we're happy to be sponsored by Modern and Denver magazine for over a decade they've been

[00:22:32] crafting fantastically curated content on Colorado designers and projects spreading the gospel of

[00:22:38] good design within our region and I love how the goal of Modern and Denver aligns with the goal of

[00:22:43] this podcast to better build up and connect the community of Colorado designers so go buy a copy

[00:22:50] of the magazine at your local bookstand subscribe to their weekly email list and follow them on

[00:22:55] Instagram check it out but uh so you were both sort of like that's funny coming at it from

[00:23:05] different ways and then sort of hovering around architecture so then Morgan what what when you

[00:23:11] decided to go to grad school where'd you go and sort of what pushed you in that way yeah um you

[00:23:18] know I applied to a couple different schools and ended up going to University of Oregon and Eugene

[00:23:23] just mainly because of the sustainability focus and I was like this is what I you know

[00:23:27] was really passionate about at the time so um yeah ended up there and it was awesome I had a

[00:23:33] really great experience I was working for this guy named Gary Moy you know through during the semester

[00:23:40] some of the semesters over the summers and he had worked in Louis Kahn's office for a long time so he

[00:23:46] was like you know very old school um and you know he would just like you know you'd like bring him

[00:23:51] your drawing and he would just like crumple it up and you know he'd leave me like newspaper

[00:23:56] articles at the end of the day that I'd have to go home and use graph paper and like write

[00:23:59] out the articles and are you serious so yeah it was it was really and I was like you know like to

[00:24:04] practice your lettering or yes to practice my lettering wow so I was using like programs at school

[00:24:09] during the day and then like doing this you know during summers and nights or whatever days off

[00:24:15] and you know at first I was like wow it's intense you know but then like some of the other

[00:24:18] professors would come into our office and that they were doing projects on and like

[00:24:23] you know Gary kind of treated them the same way so you know it was like all right so maybe this

[00:24:27] isn't so bad and the economy was terrible so I was like whatever I have a job like I'll you know

[00:24:32] and and so yeah it was it was great I learned like actually how to draft actual line weights and

[00:24:37] pencils and you know it was a great great position and then yeah I was also able to teach

[00:24:44] pretty much every semester while I was there which was great grad school cost me almost nothing

[00:24:49] and had amazing experiences teaching with undergrads and studio experience and yeah it was slept

[00:24:55] time just totally yeah yeah never never broke out in hives ever yeah it was awesome never cried in

[00:25:00] the bathroom yeah exactly he lived with the women some of the women's rugby team yeah he did less

[00:25:08] sleep kicking better yeah yeah this fantastic house of like these they were all like undergrad

[00:25:14] architecture students but also on the rugby team and they were just a blast one of them works

[00:25:19] in steamboat now I'm still friends with her we just started the AA conference oh cool just so

[00:25:22] fun to run into her but yeah it was just it was like college part dick kind of for me you know which

[00:25:27] is it was just like great being around this bigger university and um yeah just really really good time

[00:25:33] so I feel like you came you came in to grad school with maybe maybe some big expectations of

[00:25:38] especially on the like sustainability front for sure and I feel like and I and I want to dive

[00:25:45] into this with you guys but you know people will say like yeah like I want to be a sustainable

[00:25:51] architect I want to do this and it's it's very hard to actually dive into that in a certain way

[00:25:58] or find that school that really does it right then like figuring out how much architects can really do

[00:26:05] so we're were you surprised well did you get out of organ what you thought you would or

[00:26:15] I did actually how were you surprised yeah I mean I didn't have a lot to compare it to obviously

[00:26:22] in terms of like other like architectural education experiences at that point but yeah no I mean I was

[00:26:27] working in like the energy studies building laboratory that was on campus and um you know

[00:26:32] there was like all these like very well known you know kind of sustainability experts that

[00:26:36] were around and taking classes with them my thesis project was with uh Miller Hall

[00:26:42] and working on the bullet center in Seattle which was like a living building which was like yeah I mean

[00:26:48] it was that was really disheartening and also very inspiring at the same time just because it was such

[00:26:54] a it's the standard is so challenging and to see these like amazing architects working on it and

[00:26:59] us also supporting it from from the energy modeling side but also from the design side

[00:27:05] you know it was I think I glimpsed at how like exactly what you're talking about like

[00:27:09] just how challenging it is didn't navigate that but I think it it prepared me probably better than a

[00:27:15] lot of other places in terms of like pursuing sustainability architecture right and then Steve

[00:27:22] so then you're hanging out in Durango chilling as a fake architect underground when pretty much

[00:27:31] what's next for you how long do you stay there and then what well kicked you out so that was

[00:27:37] interesting because it was great I love living in Durango I was learning so much I was actually

[00:27:42] using ArchiCAD which is interesting because what we use now right randomly and then but I had moved

[00:27:49] there with a friend group out of college and one of those friends is Morgan's wife so I was friends

[00:27:54] with her and undergrad and then we were like she was working as a natural builder and doing

[00:27:59] adobe construction and my buddy was a geologist he was doing a carbon tree or something like

[00:28:05] his girlfriend and then whatever I think I think Kathleen actually got a job in Telluride and then

[00:28:12] I was at the same time this guy that I worked with like he was like a contract worker for Dean

[00:28:18] Brookie for a little bit he was like oh I just talked to this company in Telluride you've got

[00:28:23] to go talk to this one he's like so cool doing like these amazing projects it'd be like

[00:28:29] such an opportunity he's like and I can get you an interview I was like that's interesting

[00:28:33] this is coming up at the same time as like Austin also wanted to move to Telluride and so we ended

[00:28:38] up like I was like I'll talk to him and so I ended up having this like amazing conversation with Tommy

[00:28:44] Hein it was very philosophical I remember like I don't remember the conversation absolutely but

[00:28:49] I just came away so inspired and decided to move to Telluride so after about a year in Durango

[00:28:54] I ended up moving living in Telluride for like four years and actually through we also didn't

[00:29:01] need for you to have an architecture degree well it was amazing like I had I had worked for a year

[00:29:07] and was gotten pretty like savvy with the software and was able to like do good elevations you know

[00:29:14] and I could do a wall section like I think I was a pretty smart hire and it's really hard to hire

[00:29:19] people in these mountain towns like who lives there that's an architect that can do stuff

[00:29:23] right um and I think he had a bunch of actually pretty qualified people working for him but

[00:29:29] just like a drafts person that was like a pretty good Kamavi for I was like I will be your draftsman

[00:29:35] yeah you know and he was that kind of Tommy Hein does he's a very highly talented architect like

[00:29:41] really but one of those more like figurehead type practices where it worked it was a great

[00:29:47] relationship he would come to me with a sketch and I would draft that up and it was like I

[00:29:51] could understand where he was trying to say and what his ideas were and like um but uh

[00:29:58] yeah so I ended up moving up there um worked for him for four or five years and I kept thinking like

[00:30:06] this will be a year and then I'll go figure out what I want to do but like as I kept progressing it was

[00:30:10] like getting to be more and more rewarding being an architect and I was like okay I guess this is

[00:30:14] maybe maybe this is what I'm going to do met my wife there she ended up also working for

[00:30:21] actually she was like we were in this friend group she was actually I think I met Kathleen

[00:30:25] was friends with her before she moved to town and then we ended up um living together in this roommate

[00:30:31] situation and she got the office manager job for Tommy um and after a few years we both independently

[00:30:37] decided to that it would be a good idea to buy a house and we weren't even dating at the time

[00:30:43] but we did end up deciding to buy a house in Ofer which is like a valley over from Telluride

[00:30:48] way cheaper in the early 2000s it was affordable ish um between the two of us like people pulling

[00:30:54] reserves we were able to do that and um I like ended up and what was cool about Tommy is I I gave

[00:31:00] him my notice and he was like no don't leave and I was like okay I'll work half time so I worked for

[00:31:05] two weeks for Tommy and then two weeks at a time my buddy Austin and I renovated the house so we

[00:31:11] ended up like tearing every single stud out we did all the wiring we did the the west wall

[00:31:17] we like took it out completely it was this old log house built by miners in the 60s rebuilt

[00:31:22] it um there was like no insulation for the first winter so we just like made a lot of fires under

[00:31:28] color whiskey on toddy's um so why'd you ever leave yeah exactly it was a little bit of a dream

[00:31:37] um I think Stacy actually ended up like initiating and being like I want to go back to grad

[00:31:42] school she was interested in architecture so she did the summer program at Columbia

[00:31:46] and then decided she didn't want to do architecture and that she would want to do

[00:31:50] planning instead so she was like I'm gonna apply for grad school I guess I should get a degree in this

[00:31:55] too having like I can't even apply I can't even get licensed right because I didn't even have an

[00:31:58] undergrad so I um so I applied it all over the country um and we figured we'd sell the house

[00:32:07] when we finished it and go to grad school um and like help it it would help us pay off our

[00:32:13] pay for our school the selling the house thing didn't work because it's 2008

[00:32:17] and it still didn't have a west wall west wall came out great

[00:32:24] there was a little more insulation in it too but the uh the economy wasn't good it was like right

[00:32:30] when they crashed doesn't need yeah so it was a great time to go back to grad school yeah it was

[00:32:33] perfect time because I just like I had applied at schools I'd gotten in here in the air ended

[00:32:38] up at the time you go to Parsons in New York um Henry Smith Miller it was the interim uh what is

[00:32:46] it called like program director and he he like convinced me I was like no I don't want to go to

[00:32:51] New York I only applied to New York because my wife had applied somewhere in New York and then didn't

[00:32:55] want it like that didn't she didn't want to go there so I was like I'm not going to consider that

[00:32:59] I'm like a manor but but he called me up and he was like no you should come here because this

[00:33:08] is like this melting pot is like New York City is where it's happening and you he like lied

[00:33:13] to me he said I had a lot of potential it's like I see yourself made man like you gotta come here

[00:33:18] I don't know what he was thinking but I did end up um deciding that was going to be more interesting

[00:33:24] it's the path less travel there you go well I don't have a great uh understanding about Parsons

[00:33:31] of like what what is it what is it and like what drew you there and what what did you get out of

[00:33:37] it you know I applied there because they had a really great design build program and I thought

[00:33:43] they it was like I went around and there were still all these programs that were like a little too artsy

[00:33:48] for me and I was like this pragmatic kind of guy a physics major you know and I like really

[00:33:53] thought I would want to go to like like MIT and I remember seeing models there and being like

[00:33:59] and then or Columbia and I know physics yeah exactly I think it was a little I was like I'm

[00:34:08] working as an architect I'm gonna be like get in and then I think I so I ended up I got into

[00:34:13] pretty good schools but I was had no like artistic abilities it was all just elevations

[00:34:24] I remember working in my portfolio and I was really proud of it and I was like putting

[00:34:27] in plants and elevations of these projects in the sky who I worked with like was like oh can I see

[00:34:31] and he looked at me and was like you're not gonna get into school anyway like two days and he's like

[00:34:37] I don't know you need to start over you need an idea here show like your own ideas like not just

[00:34:43] your bosses like you need to have some graphics to this like and I was like shit this is due

[00:34:50] and he's like okay well I'm gonna give you my computer that has an illustrator on it

[00:34:55] you're not gonna use like word and you're gonna start over and here's an example he gave me like

[00:35:00] if he was like here's a few examples of portfolios and I started over and like worked

[00:35:04] overnight for a couple days and I got into like half the programs which would have been zero

[00:35:10] so yeah for that but yeah no Parsons is like they I think it's like a great it's like

[00:35:16] all the professors are practicing architects in New York and they're really some some great

[00:35:21] names like LTL is there I'm loving bets you know Renfro was there for a little while I'll

[00:35:27] raise lip good so I was attracted to like having that like level of caliber but also the they're

[00:35:33] all practicing and they're really about like not just they they want to push your ideation

[00:35:40] and there's some conceptual rigor but there's like not I felt like it was this great balance

[00:35:45] and because they had this like design build program I could tell that I didn't know that I

[00:35:49] needed to do it I like did my own design build program already but at least I could

[00:35:53] is it was a value to them which made it sort of feel like aligned with what I wanted to do so that's

[00:36:00] and I think when I when I went out there to check it out I was I was kind of confirmed for me

[00:36:05] and I would say it it did it was those things and I'm really glad I chose to go there which

[00:36:11] was kind of like barely ended up deciding to do that but it was a good time there as well in terms

[00:36:19] of like who is coming through right it there's just so many schools out there and they can they can

[00:36:24] influence you so strongly and it's crazy where you drop and how it molds you but so then Morgan

[00:36:31] you you graduated with all these ideas of sustainability and and and psychology and

[00:36:41] art and where did that leave you lead you what did you do after that kind of like a street corner

[00:36:46] on Portland in Portland Oregon with the rest of the architects yeah exactly yeah but yeah 2010

[00:36:53] which was like yeah super awesome time tried to try to get a job can I stay in school another year

[00:36:57] exactly 2008 yeah yeah well no I graduated in 2009 graduated yeah yeah so yeah some more time

[00:37:04] about him yeah yeah no I know they were like you've got to get out of here so that was unfortunate

[00:37:09] yeah so I spent you know a couple months in Portland looking for work and like you know how these fun

[00:37:15] interviews and they're like portfolio looks great like you know if the world wasn't ending we'd totally

[00:37:20] hire you so yeah you know it was definitely a tough time just financially and you know psychologically

[00:37:28] like coming out of graduating and all that kind of momentum and yeah but luckily I did have a buddy

[00:37:35] who got a job in Portland Maine the other the other Portland yeah and so he he actually like kind

[00:37:44] of hooked me up with a firm there um Kaplan Thompson architects is like a smaller firm

[00:37:49] out of Portland and they were actually looking for someone and um yeah and there's not that many

[00:37:55] people in Maine so you know they were like cast a wide net and they had one architect leave

[00:38:00] exactly totally totally um so yeah I like you know I obviously talked with them and then

[00:38:07] decided to move across country for that job because I was like I think it's one of the

[00:38:11] only jobs right now so but yeah it actually you know they were they had a really great focus

[00:38:17] on sustainability one of the two principals was also from University of Oregon and they were really

[00:38:22] trying to push Passive House on the on the east coast in New England and we're doing like you

[00:38:28] know really pretty progressive things that I could see from from other firms you know at

[00:38:34] that time and yeah so I was there for four years and it was a great experience I learned a ton

[00:38:41] you know we did one of the first passive house schools in the country which I got to be part of

[00:38:47] yeah it was like the one of the project leads on that um you know we're doing like multi-family

[00:38:52] passive house and single family stuff so obviously I didn't know at the time and I never set out to

[00:38:57] like start my own firm you know back then I was just like so it's like I have a job and just

[00:39:01] wanted to like learn but it was a very similar kind of structure to our firm now and a lot of

[00:39:06] weird ways and you know so we were yeah there was that balance of doing like single family and

[00:39:11] doing stuff that was like a little bit more exploratory and um out on the design edge and then also like

[00:39:17] trying to get very rigorous about you know multi-family and but also pushing sustainability

[00:39:22] balance with like boundaries with like schools and stuff like that so um yeah I felt super

[00:39:29] lucky to be there for almost four years so yeah so then when did you start your own firm

[00:39:36] yeah after that yeah so that was like 2014 I think I came out my wife who is spent a lot of time

[00:39:45] in Colorado was like we need to get back to Colorado I can't take me anymore it sucks

[00:39:51] there goes literally tell your friend right there yeah yeah totally um so we moved back

[00:39:57] and you know I was starting to looking around for jobs and the economy was decent but I couldn't

[00:40:02] really find any firms that intrigued me that much well was it here in Denver yeah in Denver

[00:40:08] and then I had a friend from undergrad um this guy Noah Manos who's still a great friend of mine

[00:40:14] we started a design build company because I was just like you know I was been in an

[00:40:19] office for four years just head down super you know super deep and passive house and design and

[00:40:25] you know he he was able to buy a property actually just a couple blocks from here five points and we

[00:40:33] we kind of kicked off this design build business so we you know we demoed the property

[00:40:38] and he basically gave me a lot of free reign to design this high performance single family home

[00:40:44] on this corner lot and five points so I owe a lot to him and he had a really great network here

[00:40:51] you know like friends with a lot of a lot of old like Denver folks natives and you know

[00:40:57] heard Christian Butler was on here and he was like one of the first guys I met through Noah

[00:41:01] landing in Denver so yeah it was it was a very different experience you know doing the design

[00:41:08] build we would like what was that firm called um that was called paper airplane and still exists

[00:41:14] yeah and Noah's really kind of taking it on and is he in like Kansas City now yeah he's doing

[00:41:19] a project out there yeah because you're from Kansas too right yeah yeah in Kansas and I yeah I have

[00:41:24] a friend of a friend that keeps talking about him and I had run across to you guys's work yeah and

[00:41:29] then yeah yeah yeah yeah so he's he's you know that's he's still running that business and

[00:41:35] we've done some collaborations together with him over the years but you know we this was

[00:41:41] all pre-steve and so we started out and uh you know we were working on this house and

[00:41:47] yeah like it was just a very different experience one day we rented this cherry picker and we were

[00:41:52] trying to take down this tree on site and like you know we're up 30 feet and I've got like this big

[00:41:57] big ass chainsaw you know like not the little electrical ones the big ones and like Noah's like

[00:42:01] holding my waist and I'm like leaning out trying to get these branches and there's like a

[00:42:05] little crack redoing Titanic with chainsaw exactly totally there's this little crowd

[00:42:10] like forming on the street and like you know it was just like wow this is very different

[00:42:14] than two months ago and I was like sitting on my desk a very quiet environment but um yeah like

[00:42:20] I remember some of the neighbors like actually asked us to come over and cut branches for them so

[00:42:24] we were like doing deals on the street yeah and I was like maybe we should just be like these

[00:42:30] arborists throw away like best money I ever made exactly totally cash money um so yeah that

[00:42:38] was cool it was you know you guys were you guys were like developing and financing yourself

[00:42:42] yeah yeah this one project yes one project yeah I mean we it was mainly him just throwing

[00:42:47] everything into it that he had um and obviously like yeah we were both out there like literally

[00:42:52] in the trenches like digging this foundation where there was a house like a foot away you know

[00:42:57] these tight Denver lots and just um it was a it was pretty eye-opening experience for me I think

[00:43:02] I walked away from that and I was like I don't know if I need to be doing this much build

[00:43:07] it's not a design building was that a duplex uh no it was a it was a single family yeah but you

[00:43:14] you did another duplex yeah that was sort of like two gable forms and wood clad wrapped around

[00:43:20] not not with shape but with paper airplane uh no that's the only other one I think is with

[00:43:25] shape yeah that was just a single I thought there was another one or something okay yeah um

[00:43:29] but yeah that project turned out great um you know it was like a record selling or whatever and

[00:43:34] the people love the house and um got some press from it too and yeah it was an overall great experience

[00:43:41] and like so from there you know we again know I had this amazing network so we were like working

[00:43:47] with all these Denverites on different projects um the you know Museum of Contemporary Art doing

[00:43:53] stuff for them and you know kind of all over the place and so yeah it it was a really nice

[00:43:59] kind of shifting gears but I did start to miss architecture you know because you were still doing

[00:44:05] a lot of design work but it was taking up a lot less of your time I guess yeah yeah well well I mean

[00:44:11] as you know like you know it was just the construction side was like 75 80% of it right

[00:44:16] it's just like it's yeah they're just different beasts and it's really like pretty

[00:44:19] up come on yeah yeah exactly yeah let's go totally totally yeah it just it was it was really hard

[00:44:25] to manage so um yeah I think I yeah I just started kind of again because of no I really

[00:44:30] was starting to build this network of people in Denver and um started taking on more kind of side

[00:44:37] design jobs and um yeah it was just like a slow like over a couple years kind of phased out where

[00:44:43] I was just like yeah I've kind of got too much on my plate I can't like you know do the build

[00:44:48] side anymore right and so then you you graduated with finally with the architecture degree

[00:44:56] and then did you decide to go into some other career after that well my girlfriend at the time

[00:45:05] Stacy my wife was she went to grad school in for urban planning in British Columbia she went to

[00:45:13] DBC which is very far it turns out from New York and then she that was a two-year program

[00:45:18] mine was a three-year program so the last year of my program she was working as an intern at first

[00:45:23] for this new city development project in Nigeria yeah and um you can hear all her story on episode

[00:45:30] yeah something something totally but yeah so she was it turns out even harder to talk to you

[00:45:38] when she lived in Nigeria the New York then in Vancouver it was like more than three at Tenzons

[00:45:46] and so I did I was doing solar to cathalon and when I was finishing so I graduated I kept working

[00:45:52] on the solar to cathalon that competition was the following fall August September whatever October

[00:45:58] and that was in D.C. when I was on the mall so I was like head down all in design building

[00:46:03] doing the construction not burned out on it it was awesome and so we got so when that ended

[00:46:12] I didn't really want to stay in New York and I didn't have like a good anchor somewhere else but

[00:46:19] I was also like Stacy you need to come back or because we're not I can't do long distance

[00:46:25] like one more year or whatever because sure her employers kept wanting her to stay like this is

[00:46:29] going really well like please continue so she basically said that like I'm quitting my husband

[00:46:35] so does I have to go back and they were like what does he do and she was like he's an arcaday

[00:46:39] and they were like he's hired so I remember but I have a good portfolio now it really

[00:46:48] it's ready it was ready but it wasn't good I'm a illustrator now

[00:46:52] um so I I was even better at making models so I decided that that would be cool like I would

[00:47:00] give that a try I went out to Nigeria and lived in the bush and worked on this it was really cool

[00:47:07] because Stacy had spent a year doing this if you didn't listen to episode 122 she had spent

[00:47:13] the year doing this master planning project and it was the really cool concept that it was not

[00:47:19] this like top-down build this whole city from scratch it was build seed projects neighborhoods

[00:47:25] around economic incubators so there was like a fish farm a health center a school this like yam

[00:47:33] storage processing building and then some worker housing and like they built the first thing that

[00:47:37] was built was a brick factory so people would be like holy people because the whole problem is

[00:47:42] everybody leaves the rural areas and goes to the city to Lagos because there's no economic

[00:47:46] activity and they don't want to just be yam farmers that struggle because everybody grows yams

[00:47:51] and sells them to each other at the same time so having this like ability to to have longer term

[00:47:57] storage for their harvest and then having these other economic opportunities and then sort of it

[00:48:04] was like the all of this was financed by a Nigerian who's from that local community and was

[00:48:10] really interested started out as like a nonprofit supporting education so really cool vision

[00:48:16] and they created this idea of a way to create this sort of urban agricultural community and then build

[00:48:21] it a little bit of time using local labor so that just sounded amazing I was there and I got to help

[00:48:26] design like some of the workforce housing and someone like I worked on the yam store building

[00:48:30] and um and you know that was like amazing it was a crazy adventure really cool really

[00:48:38] interesting so many layers though Nigeria is just such a complicated and challenging place

[00:48:43] there's just like such a corrupt like governance there that has these like trickle down effects

[00:48:51] throughout society that's like it was really it was it was an experience in colonialism you know

[00:48:56] like even just being like half of our design team was um one was a Nigerian-American I was Nigerian

[00:49:03] sorry Ghanian-American Nigerian and Stacey and I and just having like two white people

[00:49:07] in the mix just really made like change the dynamic and then there were these

[00:49:11] Ghanians that were the skilled labor force because they there was like a sort of

[00:49:19] culture of training in in the trades in Ghana but not Nigeria so they brought in this crew that could

[00:49:26] like actually knew how to like put rebar you know and so there was like all these interesting

[00:49:32] dynamics in the end we I was thinking we would stay for a little over a year we ended up leaving

[00:49:36] after like nine months right before the rainy season when the river floods and can't make breaks so um

[00:49:43] yeah so that's what like spit me out into the world and that was cool good timing because that was

[00:49:48] 2011 like there were some jobs again in New York but not that many um but then Stacey really wanted

[00:49:55] to come back to New York because she actually got an opportunity to work for city planning there

[00:49:59] which is as good of an opportunity as you can get as a city planner and you know my stuff

[00:50:04] was in storage there so I was just gonna place together I had to go back there anyway yeah exactly

[00:50:09] pick up my sleeping bag yeah so move into the storage unit right it took a little while but I did

[00:50:16] get a job for 1100 architect there it's just they're like very boutique firm but they do both

[00:50:21] residential and commercial uh and that was when I realized I really was I really sucked like

[00:50:27] I I that's when I thought I was going to go get that first job and I had five years of experience

[00:50:31] and I did great in my program I got all these like pads on the back and then I was like wow I still

[00:50:37] am not I do not know what to do as a designer and there was really good taste of humble pie

[00:50:44] it was not the most pleasant year of my life but I think that was the one where I like

[00:50:48] found like figured out really what it takes to to architect beyond like fancy single family

[00:50:54] homes in the mountains well yeah well and even in like I had I had a sort of similar

[00:51:01] little experience when I was fairly soon out of undergrad and went to uh Liberia and did

[00:51:09] like a master plan for development and I remember being like okay yeah I'm not a draw but like I don't

[00:51:15] I don't know how to build stuff here I don't know you know like feeling like okay they're looking

[00:51:20] at me like the expert and I've kind of sold myself as that but like they're making stuff out of bricks

[00:51:25] right yeah and and I'm not yeah there's no one there's no old contractor or architect looking

[00:51:31] over my shoulder and telling me you know and and had a bunch of those sort of weird experiences

[00:51:38] good experiences too where it kind of builds me up and then yeah I've hit a few of those firms

[00:51:43] where I'm just like oh shit I don't know anything I you know of how to actually do stuff and

[00:51:50] and how humbling that can be and uh I was old too right yeah when I went back to grad school which

[00:51:56] was like old for everybody there right I'm just straight through or having one or two years off and

[00:52:00] then and I had all this experience in AutoCAD I was like oh that makes me an art real good architect

[00:52:04] right and so then I went ahead with have project managers who were like five years younger than

[00:52:09] me and like knew what was going on I was really like dang it why am I bad at this

[00:52:15] well it's like when you're talking about the sort of I don't want to specialize in a thing of physics

[00:52:21] right like that whole thing of are you a generalist or a specialist and yeah those people who are five

[00:52:29] six ten years younger than you who just been doing yeah they're off the track yeah yeah

[00:52:34] shell core whatever you know they can come at it yeah you know and until you throw them

[00:52:40] some physics problems and right but so then how did yeah how'd you guys end up together then

[00:52:48] like it seemed like your orbits were kind of spiraling yeah we never had yeah I still hadn't

[00:52:53] met at this point I'd heard about Morgan and through Kathleen they grew up together

[00:52:57] so like being friends with Kathleen like I'd heard your name yeah yeah heard your name

[00:53:03] well so I was in New York then I switched firms in New York and then I finally

[00:53:08] well I was like okay I really need to move out of New York it's a baller amazing place but I do need

[00:53:15] grass not main I need to be able to be barefoot sometimes and but at the same time

[00:53:23] Stacy was like not into urban planning because it's very slow and she likes to make things happen

[00:53:29] so decided to go back to grad school for landscape architecture um and then through a long series

[00:53:35] there's a little shortcut to the chase we end up in in Boston she went to GSD and um I was like

[00:53:41] that's actually it's funny because everyone in New York it's like the number one cultural thing is they

[00:53:45] teach you to hate Boston yeah it's like the first thing you need to know is like the second thing

[00:53:52] is to like ride the subways after that like whatever you want to do is fine it's cool let me see

[00:53:56] your card two check marks okay so I was like we actually decided I was like we can't move to

[00:54:02] Boston and have you go to Harvard it's gonna be the most miserable thing we could ever do

[00:54:07] but when we end up there I was like oh it's all a lie like it's actually a really great city

[00:54:13] and Cambridge is really nice and there's all these like lakes and the ocean the beaches around

[00:54:17] there are amazing like no one that's been world-class yeah exactly it turns out there's

[00:54:21] actually world-class beaches all along the coast of Massachusetts that nobody knows about

[00:54:27] like it's amazing and then two weeks of the year it's yeah beautiful yeah well I think for me

[00:54:32] it was like actually a lot of weeks of year it's like pretty nice um the falls yeah and uh yeah and

[00:54:37] everybody's really nice it's like this like people from all over the world are like just there because

[00:54:42] they're interested in some like subject they're like so economic it was so we live there well

[00:54:48] students grad school I worked for an Bay architect that was really great but it was there in an

[00:54:51] FX Fowl in New York I was like doing a lot of cultural work and I was really liking that so

[00:54:56] schools libraries museum I got to work on the Statue of Liberty Museum in New York

[00:55:02] I just like loved doing that especially after doing these like 14,000 square foot monster houses and

[00:55:09] tell your I'd that like just mean a lot of raping the world to like build you know right like

[00:55:15] actually contributing not trying to be too fancy just making really valuable stuff but then

[00:55:21] um probably like Morgan's wife my wife was like okay she's from Texas we had met in Colorado like

[00:55:29] we need to move back to where there's blue skies once in a while um and also she wanted to start

[00:55:34] a firm or have her own firm and so um the East Boston is just like the last place you should

[00:55:39] decide to do that right where it's like all these brilliant amazing people graduating every year

[00:55:45] and so Colorado seemed like a pretty good like her parents had moved here her brother lives here

[00:55:50] it was like felt like home it was a good potential for her career wise I didn't want to start my own

[00:55:55] firm Lord knows um terrible idea but when we moved out here I had a similar experience where I was

[00:56:01] just like kind of looking for you know I was I was like what firm do I want to work for that's

[00:56:06] like does more sustainability than what I've been doing I'm really I was passed about a

[00:56:10] certified train I really wanted to do that um I was loving the like caliber of work we were

[00:56:15] doing and I there's some amazing firms in Denver but they weren't like checking both of those boxes

[00:56:21] and then but meanwhile we've been coming to Colorado the vacation with Stacey's family and

[00:56:27] I would we would see Kathleen and Morgan mostly to hang out because my wife's brother's dog

[00:56:34] and their dog would like play so it's a whole thing so there's a whole dog so we would like

[00:56:40] hang out and every time Morgan was like are you being like yeah I started my firm and like

[00:56:44] I got this like adu and some renovations you know and then the next year you're like well

[00:56:48] and I'm doing this passive I got a passive house project and we're doing this like um you know

[00:56:53] bed and breakfast and the next time I come out it was always like wow this is like I'm kind of

[00:56:58] jealous and um so then and when when don't be yeah that's it's you're selling how it looks

[00:57:05] like from other people exactly and then yeah but so we talked and then we were like I was just

[00:57:11] you you seem like you needed somebody besides Griffin and I um it just seemed like better to

[00:57:18] take a chance again the off the beaten path like as well now I have this chance

[00:57:25] never gonna come again if Morgan turns out to be an asshole and it's no fun working

[00:57:30] on these adus I can always go work for Anderson Mason Dale or somebody and our dogs are gonna

[00:57:35] have fun but yeah exactly at least the dog will be happy yeah so that's how we so when was that when

[00:57:40] did you 2018 yeah yep 2018 and I love I love the sort of origin story so what so you're like okay

[00:57:51] we're gonna start so he'd started shape was like okay two or three years old yeah yeah I had one

[00:57:57] person yeah yeah so like he came on officially as as an employee and um obviously like with more

[00:58:04] experience than my first blast and but yeah I think there was like an understanding that like it could

[00:58:11] be a potential partnership you know because I was looking you know I've always really liked kind of

[00:58:17] collaborating with folks and like I never envisioned being like that person you know so you

[00:58:22] know I think that was kind of at the very beginning that was like a potential there

[00:58:27] which is exciting and you know Noah and I had basically kind of gone our separate ways

[00:58:31] that point just because our business models were so different but yeah so I think that was kind of an

[00:58:37] idea from the outside but that was nice where you you were able to have have that really solid

[00:58:45] portfolio piece at least that one house yeah that's like this is what I believe in this is what

[00:58:51] I can do and it's sold better and yeah yeah that's such the hurdle for people right for

[00:58:57] firms of having that kind of flagship thing and so when when he joined up was I mean I guess so that

[00:59:04] was two years three years from that house was we're picking up and and yes and yeah yes and no passive

[00:59:12] house like yeah you know like I think we were both really trying to like increase momentum around

[00:59:17] like the passive house chapter you know and the especially Colorado Green Building Guild and

[00:59:23] Colorado Renewable Energy Society and like all these things and we're trying to like kind of

[00:59:28] push that and that network was growing a little a lot stronger you know people were like moving

[00:59:33] here and starting other businesses like EMU and other people that were like interested and had

[00:59:38] great experience and were bringing it into Denver and kind of like helping that that

[00:59:42] movement so yeah yes and no like there was you know we had some had a couple great projects

[00:59:47] and a couple not so good ones yeah it was great for me at first because at first there was like

[00:59:53] none of the partnership stuff I was just kind of working and I got to have like the awesome projects

[00:59:56] and Morgan was like running around trying to put the fires out on all the like crappy little

[01:00:00] remodels in addition so he's like why don't you partner with me yeah yeah yeah yeah why don't

[01:00:04] you stick around here take this project but you had done really great network building through

[01:00:10] the passive house and like sustainability community so you had we had the Maryland

[01:00:14] Passage House project and the Sunshine Canyon project which you basically put on my plate because

[01:00:23] I you thought would be capable of managing those right Griffin was more like junior and

[01:00:30] and then that freed up your bandwidth so I was like I get to work on these sweet single family

[01:00:35] passive houses for people that are just like amazing clients that like care so much and

[01:00:39] drank the Kool-Aid really want to do this really cool site like just really lucky that those projects

[01:00:45] were very much all the values you know it was like in these really complicated sites with beautiful

[01:00:51] views and integrating into the hillside and having and being meeting the passive house standard

[01:00:57] so I was like just working intensely on those and a couple other projects I think there was

[01:01:00] that one with Noah in town but yeah you had a lot of like I could not believe how many little

[01:01:07] projects you were able to have on your plate like like 80 years and additions and I was just

[01:01:12] you know coming from I'd work for two years on one school starting in DD you know and

[01:01:20] got built and it was amazing it was 45,000 square feet but like still I was just like wait

[01:01:25] you're saying yes to another one of these yeah yeah do you want me to pay this one yeah exactly

[01:01:32] yeah in retrospect I feel like I could have probably turned down a few of those

[01:01:36] crappier jobs and been fine but at the time it was like well you never know right yeah exactly

[01:01:40] such a balance of starting that yeah well and it's our roots like I do feel like you know we're

[01:01:47] doing an 80 you now we're doing we do them occasionally because they're like attached

[01:01:50] or they're on the same property and like we've got one now that it's just an 80 you and it's

[01:01:55] like really fun yeah no they're like little jewel boxes right they're so easy comparatively at

[01:02:01] least and we're not that far into it yet sometimes they get really hard but like yeah I think I'm really

[01:02:07] glad that that's part of like what we do you know and it's like we don't just have to do

[01:02:13] bigger things well those those are so tricky right because you want to be helping people

[01:02:18] you want to be you want to be giving them the thing that they need and building beautiful

[01:02:23] designing beautiful spaces in places but then it's like it's so hard to afford an architect

[01:02:29] to be on an 80 you much less get an 80 you built for what prices are at right now yeah totally

[01:02:35] for sure and then you're only working for the certain people right yep well it is it does feel

[01:02:41] more like you're working for people like ourselves right like you know it's the sometimes you can

[01:02:46] rationalize it with the mortgage and what the income was going to be and they already have

[01:02:50] right and it does I like that you know again going back to tell your ideas like I just could

[01:02:56] not relate to the clients I'm this manor likes to be barefoot and these fancy people are coming

[01:03:02] and doing these like 12,000 square foot things it's just like there's such a disconnect right so

[01:03:07] what we do now it feels like it's really come together you know because I like I can imagine

[01:03:11] wanting to live in a 2000 square foot new house that's basically net zero like tiny

[01:03:17] energy bills and is you know it's like they're not cheap but going down to the adu scale

[01:03:25] it's like those are people we can really relate to and I think there's that's something that's part

[01:03:31] of our mission is like adding value to people's lives they need it right and we're doing that

[01:03:36] it's yeah very very easy to see and then again there's so much faster to work on it's like

[01:03:42] right like okay it could look like this yeah looks great like when it does feel like you guys

[01:03:46] are carving out a really nice niche of I think I think being able to label it as a sort of

[01:03:54] you being a passive house experts you know like a lot of firms can say okay yeah we're in

[01:03:59] sustainable design and what does that mean right yeah but to be able to sort of have that

[01:04:03] metrics and then and then when someone's googling passive house architect you guys are starting

[01:04:09] to establish that right yeah hopefully right but where it is it is so hard to

[01:04:16] to sort of compete we're all we're all the small residential firms are competing for this

[01:04:21] one percent of the one percent and and with all these other established firms but where you're able

[01:04:27] to carve out that thing that you believe in a little bit better I think for people who don't know

[01:04:33] give us a little overview of passive house and and what are the sort of principles there

[01:04:39] give that like tattooed on your forearm yes yeah well so passive house is like it's funny

[01:04:44] because we try not to use the word too much but it's kind of hard not to it's basically

[01:04:48] like a building science it is a building science that has numbers that a building performance metric

[01:04:56] numbers that buildings can hit to reduce energy so energy focused standard reduce energy from a

[01:05:03] typical building by 90 percent from a current code building by 62 70 percent on heating energy

[01:05:07] heating and cooling and that's a pretty obvious motivator right and it's really simple but there's

[01:05:13] like five pathways which are one the installation like double code basically walls roofs and floors

[01:05:23] very simple continuity though is key and that's what gets missed in like the next architect's house is

[01:05:29] that you can't have anything no thermal greatest sling number two no like steel beams going from

[01:05:35] the inside of the outside sorry else and kundig but those things are like a thousand times more

[01:05:41] energy loss than is allowable just one so making sure that we're just detailing really carefully and

[01:05:47] cleverly and that we're integrating that with structural engineer and checking it so we're

[01:05:53] modeling checking three is orientation and windows this really just like the windows are part of the

[01:05:59] heating system a full 30 percent third of the heat energy for the house should come from the

[01:06:06] windows the other 30s from you and our bodies and our dogs and cats and elect in electronics and

[01:06:11] then only a third is from heating cooling system that's how low we're getting and the windows

[01:06:16] have to be facing the right way and then they have to be properly shaded so we're not overheating

[01:06:20] in summer all that stuff you learn in grad school and then four is air tightness and that's

[01:06:25] probably like the best bang for buck of all the things is just detail the crap out of it and

[01:06:30] make sure that it's continuous in that it's wicked airtight and that makes like obviously if cold

[01:06:36] air comes in through the wall it's going to get cold inside so we just do that and that's something

[01:06:42] that we like don't take out of our projects you know if we're not trying to hit passive house

[01:06:45] but that has to be coupled with continuous mechanical like energy recovery ventilation so

[01:06:51] that just has to be you have to run fresh air into the house continuously recover the

[01:06:55] lost heat as the air is exchanged with the outdoor and it makes for like an exceptionally

[01:07:01] comfortable indoor environment and it's way healthier I mean once you like do this you're just like oh my

[01:07:07] gosh there's mold in all of the houses that have been built since the 80s like literally

[01:07:11] there's mold in the walls because there's a suction through the walls of moist outdoor air

[01:07:17] or moist indoor air air going out and just getting trapped in these walls so detailing that out

[01:07:23] you know it's like the energy saving is like the least important thing that's great about it

[01:07:28] and so again once we like have been trained in it and do the math and see the results and experience

[01:07:33] it it's like really hard not to bring that to every project even when we don't bother sort of

[01:07:39] dying and we've done enough now that we don't have to do the energy modeling necessarily

[01:07:43] so like achieve some of the goals although it's still very important um yeah yeah I mean I guess

[01:07:51] yeah yeah mechanical ventilation I think was the one that was the important part of it but yeah

[01:07:57] so I went I went to the conference in 2010 in Portland Oregon and it was like I saw builders

[01:08:02] and engineers and architects all sitting next to each other and I'd never seen that before and

[01:08:06] so I go like oh what is this you know and and um you know just the simplicity of it compared to

[01:08:11] other standards I think has been really appealing both from on the design side but also you know the

[01:08:17] air tightness level that has to be hit with the standard is like a real challenge for builders

[01:08:22] and so if there's builders that aren't interested in doing that like that's kind of a sign in terms

[01:08:27] of like they're you know their level of quality their interests around green building whatever it

[01:08:33] is um but the right builders get really excited about it and so they're like this is a challenge

[01:08:38] you know this is something that they can like get excited about and um you know it's a lot different

[01:08:43] than asking a general contractor to get on board with like a lead certification or whatever they

[01:08:48] they really um get involved in like we think that's a pretty cool part of it. It's not more paperwork

[01:08:53] but they get to be like my building is more airtight than yours and it's really like you look

[01:08:57] on like pass-by on Instagram and it's like 0.23 seconds exactly you're like damn that's actually

[01:09:03] hard to do. Such nerds but it is kind of like I mean again as a physics major it's like great to

[01:09:09] found this like thing where I get to kind of like we don't do physics but I can really be like oh

[01:09:14] thermodynamics is like like obviously it's pretty basic science like let's use that right let's

[01:09:20] understand what that means and where there's real metrics that you can really be totally going

[01:09:24] towards and testing and improving and super simple numbers like you get this much energy per

[01:09:29] square foot per year yeah hit it and um yeah I mean it's it's not easy and and we can't say it's free

[01:09:37] but the idea too is like you put your money into the envelope and you actually continue there are

[01:09:43] many many cases and there's a certain scale where happens where you actually do take it out of

[01:09:46] mechanical systems so right you know like we get to these value engineering things and we're like

[01:09:50] whoa whoa whoa don't forget if we take all this like extra insulation out you're just going

[01:09:55] to pay for an extra air handler like you're gonna there's real savings actual savings there and then

[01:10:01] when you compound that over time with the energy costs and everybody forgets the energy costs are

[01:10:06] going up and will continue to like when we start to include that um that's where it's a much more

[01:10:12] affordable standard than like lead where you just like consultant fees are crazy right and then

[01:10:19] what do you get like there's not a real like clear okay if I save you know if if your energy bill is

[01:10:26] 500 a month for 12 months like if we take 70 off of that like that's pretty good money that you're

[01:10:34] going to put in your pocket yeah that's right now it's it's inspiring and it's uh I start getting

[01:10:40] inspired like okay I'm going to take some courses and I'm like oh too much shit yeah don't stop

[01:10:48] but I think you know talking about not talking about hard but uh you know you you graciously

[01:10:54] invited me into the office on one one occasion for like a happy hour kind of charrette thing and I

[01:10:59] really enjoyed you know it's funny you both saying not really wanting to start a firm

[01:11:04] but then you have a firm and you have how many employees now right yeah there's nine of us nine

[01:11:10] I mean that's a that's a good sized kind of place I mean so thinking about thinking about shape and

[01:11:16] sort of like this place in this environment in this work environment that you're building and

[01:11:22] directing forward what what are sort of some of the biggest challenges and one of the things

[01:11:27] that you're most excited about kind of projecting forward yeah I mean I think that there's lots of

[01:11:34] challenges every single day always no matter what it's just like that's cool it's really easy

[01:11:40] that's good organ yeah maybe tomorrow you know as a growing firm where you know we're taking

[01:11:47] on more complex projects and we're bringing together people that have worked on complex

[01:11:52] projects before but not necessarily in the roles that they're in now you know so the the team member

[01:11:58] is now the project manager and the project manager is now the principal and so it's kind of figuring

[01:12:04] out those roles and maintaining the you know the quality I think that we've tried to include

[01:12:11] in a lot of our smaller projects in some of these bigger projects well in stepping up the

[01:12:15] quality in a large way that we have to right you just have to do higher quality work as you

[01:12:20] get more expensive projects and it gets harder exponentially does it I mean yeah I mean there's

[01:12:25] that yeah no does that come from you guys or is that you have to hire for that you know it's like

[01:12:29] yeah I have a certain level of experience in knowledge and quality that I have right yeah

[01:12:34] it grows slowly as you go but totally yeah I mean it's interesting like we're doing this farm

[01:12:40] park right now and like so Morgan's done a couple of schools a library I've done you know

[01:12:44] museum schools like we have all this experience on really complicated commercial projects but

[01:12:50] this project is like we're doing this welcome building for a farm park that's in a war it's

[01:12:56] very exciting cool sustainable so it's going to be net positive as a greenhouse has a green roof

[01:13:03] which we've never done before and a greenhouse has this really cool superstructure that's like

[01:13:08] steel that's like really carefully calibrated with I mean I've done a steel structure before

[01:13:13] but the way this one's exposed that's new really tight mechanical systems in the school millwork

[01:13:19] you know it's net and like having this pv array that's that's like water tight so it's

[01:13:24] super exciting it's great and I think we're we are figuring out those drawings are we're you

[01:13:30] know coming together but it's like I think that's like where we're every day is a challenge and

[01:13:34] we're stepping up and things are um you know that's why we're like architects right learn

[01:13:41] something hard and you know exciting every day I think other firms too maybe our size if there's

[01:13:46] partnerships involved like you know Steve takes this project Morgan takes this project and like

[01:13:51] we I think we both have like FOMO over that and so we're always kind of like stepping in and you

[01:13:57] know like stepping on each other's projects in the best possible way I think we both really

[01:14:01] appreciate that it tends to muddy the water in terms of like a traditional kind of like process

[01:14:06] like in terms of like a hierarchy yeah um but you know we makes it better we feel historically it's

[01:14:13] yeah it's kind of bring something to the project but um yeah it's not the best business model yeah I mean

[01:14:20] but it's so I think it is because we care about quality of design and that's it's just it's

[01:14:26] just like you can't take that out you know and I appreciate that so much about our partnership

[01:14:31] I think like the best way to collaborate sometimes is to just like open somebody else's work and like

[01:14:37] you have to have a real level of trust so like for Morgan to open my project without my asking

[01:14:43] change it like I love that I can't say how much I appreciate it every time it makes things better

[01:14:48] and if it doesn't I'm just like no you know and like revert yeah yeah exactly opening the save

[01:14:53] as right yeah yeah it's not like taking someone else's project and taking to the client it's

[01:14:57] more just like hey I have this idea you know take it or leave it but I do think it's it's a good idea

[01:15:02] like think about this thing yeah yeah and it's like so yeah that does that does not make a more

[01:15:07] efficient process but I think like what we care about and what we need desperately is all our

[01:15:12] projects to be is is like amazing and well conceived as possible right and and really just

[01:15:18] it comes down I think to that personality and and to that that trust and that you know

[01:15:24] how many architects did you meet and your dogs happened to run into each other one day and

[01:15:29] right but but you know it's true right yeah like it's it's a big thing to partner up with somebody

[01:15:34] and to be able to get that right especially when you're sort of in the same kind of lanes

[01:15:39] and skill sets it seems like you guys for sure uh but glad it's working out yeah yeah

[01:15:45] this was this whole other saga but so we're gonna start the firm I joined

[01:15:49] and then nine months later Morgan quit yeah yeah we're back to the beginning yeah yeah thanks a lot

[01:15:57] so Morgan moved out to Washington um I should let you tell your part of that tell your side of it

[01:16:04] yeah yeah it was just it was kind of like a family decision slash crisis that we just needed to get

[01:16:11] out of the front range of Colorado and we're both kind of more rural folk in some in some sense so

[01:16:17] I got this random job opportunity out in Washington state in this little valley called the Metau Valley

[01:16:25] and yeah it seemed like Steve was doing a great job so he's got this you got this and uh yeah he

[01:16:32] got that golden parachute you bought him out exactly totally yeah he gave me two dollars and I said

[01:16:37] yeah yeah you got it um more than I asked for yeah yeah yeah so it was it was definitely a big

[01:16:43] move and you know I felt felt pretty bad about it from time to time but we we had we felt like we

[01:16:51] had to do it for our family and just get in a different situation and I have family out there

[01:16:56] and so yeah so it was there almost there out there for almost two years looking for a firm

[01:17:03] called Prentice Balance Wickline and that's when I had one of those moments that we were talking

[01:17:08] about when I was like I've worked for that a good pretty good I've worked at a good firm I've had my

[01:17:13] own firm like I pretty much know everything you know and and they were just like you can't design

[01:17:19] shit they really put me in my place and it was I mean yeah again I was old at that point and

[01:17:27] I had this great mentor um this woman who was running the satellite office where we lived

[01:17:32] it's a Seattle based firm um and she kind of took me under her wing and I at first I was just like

[01:17:38] very confused and dejected and it was a tough year but I learned a lot I got to work on a couple

[01:17:46] beautiful houses and a library for this community and I heard something on your podcast about you

[01:17:53] know I think that there's architects out there that can do amazing stuff on a limited budget

[01:17:59] and I feel like it's something that is people in Colorado including us struggle more with

[01:18:04] you know and I don't know if there's more there's more craftsmen out there there's better materials

[01:18:10] there's you know appreciation of smaller footprints whatever it is different climate

[01:18:15] different climate lots so many factors you know not an easy one there either yeah yeah yeah that's

[01:18:20] true it's cold but this north is all right yeah that was um it was a really amazing experience

[01:18:26] but I did feel very badly about leaving Steve in clutch but it actually turned out to be a good

[01:18:31] hindsight is the best thing that ever happened and you would never ever choose that path like but I

[01:18:37] think we're at the point where we're starting to like restart the conversation about partnership

[01:18:40] it was just kind of awkward like how do we go from Morgan Steve and then like Griffin or whatever

[01:18:46] like yeah yeah how do you do that are you just like I don't know I mean all these firms do we've

[01:18:51] you've interviewed people that have done that and I've talked to people but it's still like it's

[01:18:54] just like so by Morgan leaving I took over it was my firm and I did a really bad job of running it

[01:19:01] and that's the only way I could have gotten past like I feel like you would still be like Steve

[01:19:05] that's not how you get my invoice or whatever like I had to learn um all the hard things and

[01:19:11] it was really it was really intense but um you know I like things to suck so

[01:19:17] I worked out so so Ben and Morgan was like obviously you were great in that you would like every

[01:19:25] week at arm you would you were there for any question answer I asked you so many questions

[01:19:30] and you would call into our weekly meetings for a while you were always like running to work

[01:19:34] you were jogging physically yeah physically you're like one hour one hour behind yeah

[01:19:40] a way to work yeah exactly yeah one of the other and that gave me the chance to learn to run a business

[01:19:47] you know well we had these like little projects and it was financially really didn't work out great

[01:19:52] that first year but like I by the end of that first year I feel like okay I can do this and

[01:19:58] we were still it like the amazing thing is is like we didn't lose clients I don't know why

[01:20:02] but they would they and even some of the builders that we had repeat customers through or

[01:20:07] continue to call me um but then yeah when Morgan moved back to Leadville

[01:20:14] Kathleen got a job opportunity up there and then you played that really well being like okay twist

[01:20:19] twist um but I we were just starting to like it was 2020 so we were starting to get some new

[01:20:28] exciting bigger projects and leads um and I couldn't do it anymore I was like I don't know

[01:20:33] I would have died like if I wanted to take them I didn't have the bandwidth and so Morgan coming back

[01:20:41] at that time was a godsend and it was amazing you became such a better architect it was like

[01:20:46] very noticeable it was pretty bad before I'm still bad but I'm less bad it was like

[01:20:50] yeah like like you were forcing us to step up our design came and also just like our drawings

[01:20:55] like in you know showing like okay this is how they did it no I didn't really have good

[01:20:59] context because I would been working on schools like 45,000 square foot school is not very helpful

[01:21:05] as a precedent for your right looking back at the 2000 square foot house yeah yeah exactly yeah

[01:21:10] so um and then the Tommy High days were long gone I'd lost so I didn't steal enough drawings

[01:21:14] from him I didn't have any good and they weren't those weren't applicable either yeah

[01:21:18] especially not trying to be passive house level stuff so that was just like and I think it

[01:21:22] put us both at this mutual like need for each other like yeah like I needed Morgan to come

[01:21:27] back and I think you I like take me back yeah you needed to then tell other people that they're bad

[01:21:34] so exactly yeah so when Morgan tells me my design is bad I'm just like oh thank you

[01:21:41] that is exactly what I need to know that is cool of those situations where

[01:21:45] it's like this is this is over it's done like what and then it somehow comes back and it's

[01:21:50] back stronger and better and and you know I look at your it is interesting because I do feel like

[01:21:56] they're they're looking at your work kind of on the website and things like there was you know it's

[01:22:02] continuing to get better and to improve and and yeah you guys swept up at the AIA awards and

[01:22:09] got two awards and and uh you know uh yeah just being being in the environment of the

[01:22:15] office it just had a good great feeling a great collaborative feeling of people really kind of

[01:22:21] trying to continue to push and especially with you guys leading in in this sort of passive house

[01:22:27] realm uh yeah I'm looking forward to to what you're doing and thanks for coming on and talking

[01:22:32] about it yeah yeah thanks for having us it's been great

[01:22:35] you can visit architecting.com that's architect-ing.com to see images from this week's guest

[01:22:46] and please rate and review the show wherever you listen to podcasts have a great week and keep connecting

[01:22:55] hi I'm Eli this show is made by my mom and dad and these people

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