Julie Snow

[00:00:04] It seemed like architecture was this vehicle that encapsulated basically the whole world. It was like you had to know a ton of things to do it, or you had to be able to assemble a ton of things to do it. So I've always sort of thought about architecture and your understanding of your voice, understanding what conversations you're having. Right, and with who and how. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[00:00:37] Hi. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello, and welcome to Architecting. Hello, and welcome to a special series of the Architecting Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Weiger. Over the next five episodes, we're bringing you exclusive interviews with the keynote speakers from the 2024 AIA Colorado Practice and Design Conference held in Keystone, Colorado.

[00:00:58] I was grateful to AIA Colorado for once again inviting me to sit down with these giants of our profession and diving deeper into some of the ideas from their talks, as well as deeper into their personal stories. In this episode, I'm speaking with Julie Snow, FAIA founding principal of Snow Krelich Architects, and really an acclaimed voice in modern architecture, especially in the Midwest from where the firm is based in Minnesota.

[00:01:24] Known for her precise, thoughtful designs that balance simplicity and complexity, Julie's work has earned her firm national recognition, including the 2018 National AIA Architect Firm Award. In this episode, we discuss her approach to creating spaces that are deeply connected to their environment and place, her journey as a leader in architecture, and the compelling insight she shared at the Practice and Design Conference.

[00:01:55] What's the sort of curve for you of thinking about preparing for this? Like, do you get really excited right before, like when you're standing up on the mic, and then sort of die off? No, I mean, I put a lot of thought into how the thing is assembled. Right. But I feel much better once the projects start rolling. Yeah, right. And I can just make stuff up. Yeah.

[00:02:20] And the introduction is something I work a little bit harder in. Because I want to say more than just, here's a project, here's a project, here's a project. Yeah. And you have so many projects, right? To think about what you're showing and how they're coming together and how many you're doing. And yeah. So, you know, you're talking about sort of in typical architect fashion of, they told me I had to have a title six months ago.

[00:02:50] And I made something up, and now I want to make something new. Now I got to deliver. And the new title of the lecture was, what, Small Ideas? Right. Yeah. And so, talk to me about, did that name come first? Or did the, what was the kind of generation of that? What's actually interesting is I've thought a lot about the trajectory of architecture.

[00:03:12] About, you know, years ago I gave a lecture and Monica Postelion asked me a question. Where do you position your work? You know, the, the architectural culture to that. Yeah, yeah. Hard to answer. The canon. And, yeah. So, how do you position this? And what was interesting to me about that question is that you have to know the entire conversation. Right.

[00:03:39] To know where to position your thoughts. And so, I've always sort of thought about architecture and your understanding of your voice. Understanding what conversations you're having. Right. And with who and how. Exactly. Yeah. And so, I'm very interested in that as well. Of a sort of overall architectural project, right? Of the thing. And so, at what point in your career did she say that to you?

[00:04:09] And did it start to really be a thing that. Oh, this was at a lecture. Oh, yeah. When Monica was at University of Michigan. So, I don't know when that was. Right. We could look that up. But you were like mid-career. It wasn't like you were in school or something. No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah. No, but it, but to me it's really interesting. And I think it's really important for people to look at the spectrum of work being produced across the world globally.

[00:04:33] And frankly, back in the day, like way back in the day, people didn't know, you know. Or you would wait for the publications to come out. Now, it's almost instantaneous. Right. You know, if Shigeru Ban has a new building out, you see it. Right. In 10 minutes. So. And then 10 minutes, another building comes out and you don't see that anymore. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:04:56] So, to me, you know, it's really interesting to have this language of what's happening in the world and to understand, not to understand how you fit into it, but to understand your voice as compared to this. Like what, what doesn't this do that you're seeing? Right. Are you able to succinctly articulate where you fit within that? And, yeah, I. Still not today. I know.

[00:05:25] But I'm fascinated with the conversation. Right. And, you know, I think we're, we're part of it. I think we're probably in the quieter. I was, I was talking to a friend a month ago and I, I said, you know, I'm really more interested in refinement than innovation. Now, there are many, many architects that are more interested in innovation and there are many, many architects that are more interested in the big idea than they are in, you know, in refining. Right.

[00:05:55] Or the small idea. Right. So, I know that much. Indeed. Do you feel like that's been, has that been an evolution for you when you were younger, you were a big idea? No, you were always. No, I think you always have this sort of conceptual basis of design. But that isn't necessarily a big idea. Right. I mean, you know, if, if you think of the many people that do architecture as landscape form, they choose a landscape form and then they build architecture around it. Right. Well, that's big.

[00:06:26] Landscapes are big. It's a big idea. Right. So, I'm interested in that work, but I'm not interested in doing that work. So, the idea of small ideas as a title, it's, it's touching on that. It's touching on this sort of refinement. And where, I love the tongue in cheek of it, right? But it's, you're talking about it sort of physically. Exactly. Sort of. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of a physical, like it can be a detail. Right.

[00:06:55] Or it can be like, oh, we have to refine this entire area. You know, somebody's changed their movie about this. Or somebody has got new information on costs. And we have to change the direction of, or we have to use another material here. Or, you know, all of that information that we get as you move through the design process can easily, you know, reduce the impact of the design. But that's not the point.

[00:07:24] You got to make it impactful. Right. You need to make it. Yerk. Yeah. And I mean, I'm thinking about like the, the, the urban stadium, right? Yeah. It can be seen as the opposite of a small idea, right? It's a very big idea, a very big moment within the city, very big statements. But as you're talking about sort of that like refinement, right? It's about refining that area. And it's about refining the overall diagram of the city, you know, I guess of how it, how it's connecting with the St. Louis Arch.

[00:07:53] And so maybe talk about that, you know, you open up talking about that of like, this was this massive team, right? Massive design team. Then you had like 20,000 workers on the site. Yes. So, so how do you, how do you deal with that? How do you approach that project or, or deal with that versus a single family home or something smaller, you know? Well, you know, I think it takes a lot of agility, but it also takes a compelling idea.

[00:08:21] And so you have to be able to inspire people to want to do it then. Right. And you want to have this the way that it is in your head. Right. And so I think that's, I mean, we had meetings at the very beginning every week and we had our people embedded with HOK.

[00:08:49] And so, and now it's, it's wonderful because we have people representing the project outside of Snoke Ryland in exactly the way that we bought it. Hmm. Yeah. And it's kind of not, not we necessarily just as Snoke Ryland, but as a team. Yeah. And so it was lonely. Nice. All right.

[00:09:17] Well, you had to pause for, for, for my difficulties, but jumping back in, I want to go back a little bit. So kind of where did you grow up and how did you get into architecture? What, what's that? What's that story? You have three hours. I said, yeah. I grew up in, uh, this is easy. Okay. I know where I grew up. Yes. Uh, I grew up in, uh, Western Michigan. Oh, okay. Yep.

[00:09:40] And, um, my dad, uh, was good friends with John Dinkaloo, Roche Dinkaloo. Yeah. And so he was very interested in architecture. And, uh. They just ran it, like they ran into each other's house or they went to, I mean, they went to school together. They went to school together at Oak College. And then dad went into medicine at University of Michigan and John went into, uh, uh, architecture. John kept saying, why didn't I go into medicine?

[00:10:11] He didn't talk about, have any regrets. So that's good. So then the first year, well, so apparently my mom and dad had dinner with Tess and John. And mom just said, Julie, you've got to go into architecture. You know, it, you'll just travel all over the world. And I went, oh, that's cool. I'll do that. Everyone's just like John. This week's just as easy as John. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Easy peasy. Easy.

[00:10:41] You'll be John Dinkaloo. So, um, I bought it. You know, just went to school and then worked, uh, for a summer at their office and lived with the Dinkaloo family. Where was that in? Really cool. It was in New Haven. Yeah, New Haven. Yeah. That's what it was. It was great. Yeah. It was great. John was a very stern Dutchman. Oh, really? As my dad was. Yeah. And just, but big hard. Yeah. You know.

[00:11:08] And what an office to be in, like to, to get your first experience and, and to be in that city around all that stuff. Yeah. It was great. Were the con buildings completed by then? Like, like, you know, the, the British, the British Museum or the, the art museum. Yeah. So that was all there. It was all there. The architecture school, the Rudolph architecture building was there. The Rudolph building. So yeah, you were, you had. Which I had an opportunity then to revisit teaching there. Oh yeah. Which was so cool. Yeah.

[00:11:37] When were you, when were you teaching there? I don't remember. Pretty recently. I was there. Recently. I was there from 13 to 15, but yeah. Yeah. I think I was, I think you were at that. Yeah. I'm pretty sure. Because, um, with that, it was Deborah and, and, uh, Rosanna and, uh, Lyndon from Neary Hill were teaching. Oh, wow. Nice. And Millie Todd were teaching. And so it was, it's so fun. It was so great. And it was so collegial. It was lonely. Yes.

[00:12:07] It was just a good thing. That's nice. So, so yeah, so you've got that experience and you, from an early age, knew you were assigned to be an architect. Yes. And, well, it just got to be so, it seemed like architecture was this vehicle that encapsulated basically the whole world. It was like you had to know a ton of things. Right. To do it. Or you had to be able to assemble a ton of things to do it.

[00:12:35] And so, again, I didn't know much about soccer. Almost nothing, one could say. And, uh, to learn about it was just fascinating. Yeah. It was, it was so exciting. Uh, and then to go to the games was just like, wow, here are 22,000 people enjoying this place. Yeah. To go to the games in that space. Having a good time. Where you're thinking about it. See, I don't think you'll get that in a museum project.

[00:13:03] So, you know how everybody wants to do a museum? Which, of course, it would be lovely. I love art. It would be great. But you never get 22,000 people having the same experience in an art. Right. Right. Yeah. I did. I just talked with Thomas Pfeiffer last week. Did you? And he was, he's, he's great. Right. Isn't he? Yeah. Such a gentleman. Such, so humble and, and just, he came to our, our architecture, our, our, my studio

[00:13:31] and spoke to, with all the students. We made a podcast out of it and then he did a lecture later, but he did a hour and a half lecture just on the Warsaw Museum. Yes. And you know that he was saying the whole city came together and it was, it was, he said like 20,000 people and you know, but it was a real, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some museums. Yeah. But, but, but yeah, it has to be, and it's just the, right, the difference between, you

[00:13:58] know, a single family home where you're affecting a few people's lives. Yeah. Very prominent persons. That of course is incredibly wonderful experiences. Right. Where you really are transforming the daily existence of somebody's life. You know, we've, we've had projects that have been really moving and that, you know, the

[00:14:24] opportunity, the idea of the house is to really change everything. Yeah. For lives. Right. And, and, and, and speaking of small details, right. The detail in the ways that it interacts with the landscape or views, or I remember seeing your last lecture, um, when you were here and yeah, thinking about some of those homes where they, it's just these snowy, really snowy landscapes or whatever. And this thing's just blending in or do whatever. But, um, yeah.

[00:14:54] Yeah. So you're building up your whole, whole life to be an architect. You go to school for it. Where, where did you go to school? Uh, uh, Colorado. Oh, oh, of course. Yeah. To you. So how did that, how did that happen? You, you. Well, I was, I was at another school and it was clear that they weren't super excited about having women in the program. And so I was, I was really interested in a new experience.

[00:15:22] And, uh, so some people had come through, were doing lectures and I contacted them and they had met, they'd done a lecture, uh, with, uh, Dick Whitaker. Back in the day. And he was, uh, head of the premier. And they said, he's a really cool guy. Yeah. You should talk to him. Yeah. So I talked to him and it was just, I really liked the way he thought and the way he was

[00:15:51] inquisitive about architecture and it was great. So I, I had a great experience. Hmm. And I know it seems like talking to other people. Do you know Harvey Hine? Who's here? He's an architect here. He went to see you probably about the same time as you. Yeah. Yeah. I met him 15 minutes ago. He was another person. He, oh, Hey, yes. I know. But, um, uh, he spoke about his time there and it seemed like as a real transition between

[00:16:19] coming in and almost trying to get people not to be architects, whether it was sort of like a reaction to the sixties sort of thing, whereas it was more about larger issues or things and really pushing down the kind of idea of the architectural tradition or lineage maybe. Right. Was that, was that your experience at all? I think when I was there, I, I felt like there was a very, um, bounded idea of the profession

[00:16:47] that you went into an office, you drew buildings, you know, people come to you, they would offer you a commission, you would design it and then you would put it in magazines and yeah, go your way. Okay. So in a sense, it was almost professional training and I don't think the request was to think deeply enough about the projects.

[00:17:15] So, uh, for me, that's why I love Dick. So that he, he was the guy that really pushed that this is, this is more than just a duds and bolts and yeah. Figuring this out. And, and there were many, many people in, in the program that were basically had jobs waiting for them and just with their dads or whatever. Phoned them and yeah. Yeah. And I don't think they were phoning it in, but I think they really thought that this was,

[00:17:46] this is a trade school. I, I, I felt differently. Yeah. And, and so then what, what did you do when you graduated? Were you able to kind of understand the work? Working, uh, summers for people. And, um, I pretty much, uh, was sent, you know, my dad paid all the bills going through

[00:18:10] school and I went home to Grand Rapids, Michigan and he was done paying for my bills. So after you got the cap and you put it on the other side and he said, there you go. There's the world. So, yeah. And so I stayed and worked for an architect until I had enough money to travel. And then I traveled and then came back and chose various places to work.

[00:18:40] And, and did you continue to have that sense of, I want to think deeply about architecture and I want to try to be in places that foster that? Well, I wanted to look at buildings. I mean, I wanted to really look at buildings. There weren't enough buildings in Grand Rapids to look at. Right. Yeah. So. Coming from New Haven. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So the idea was to, uh, you know, do that.

[00:19:05] And, um, I, I think early, early in your training, you have to really begin to, uh, search for your own voice. You know, you're really out trying to understand, you know, what it is you do. And so, um. And it's kind of a lot of sampling, right? Yeah. Well, you're just, you're just trying to find it, you know, and you're saying, this is cool.

[00:19:33] You know, let's see how that works. And, and so, yeah, that was. Well, what was that for you? What were the, what were the big sort of moments that helped establish who you are? Yeah. What, what was true for me back then was that I wasn't interested in a more fashionable approach, you know, a more temporal approach.

[00:19:58] So, uh, these people that would come up with manifestos and begin to talk about, well, this is the way to practice architecture. I, I really wasn't really interested. Yeah. Uh. Who, who were some of those that were, that were kind of doing that at the time? Uh, well, you know, the whole trend towards postmodernism and, uh, more formalism. Sun Blue. And it, that didn't feel native to me. Right. Yeah.

[00:20:29] And so I, I was really more interested in, in developing a quieter, maybe more serene voice than that. And. Yeah. You know, we'll see. See. I mean, you see, you go, okay, how do you do a quiet, serene football stadium? Right. Yeah. You know, that's not the point.

[00:20:54] But in a way, it, it, it is quiet enough so that it takes, um, it creates a frame. Right. For all of the. It becomes a platform to life and for. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Where you're not. All of the intensity of that game. The architect's not screaming yet. Is your experience. Right. Yeah. Because you're not being competed with. Yeah. So when did you start your own firm? Well, I think actually it was a 94.

[00:21:23] I guess. I mean, I mean, more of like. Good to make you. One of the. It's good we came up with the same number. There we go. Yeah. But, but sort of like the conditions around that. Right. So had you, you said you worked around for different firms, you were traveling. Yeah. Did you hit a point where you were like, okay, I've got it. I got it figured out. Let's, let's start this firm. Put the shingle. Come, come. Let me design your building. No, no, no. Yeah. No.

[00:21:47] I, um, I was working in a large firm in Minneapolis and my son, he was very young, uh, a year old and he had a heart condition. Oh. And so it was pretty clear to me that if I was going to spend time away from that kiddo, that it had to be, uh, putting something meaningful on the world. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That was it.

[00:22:17] And he's, he's fine. He's fine now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's great. He's about four or five by now. Is that. Two and a half. Two and a half. Good. Good. Yeah. Strong strapping, uh, Minnesotan. Uh, so then what, what did that look like the first sort of year of practice? You know? Well, I started an office with, uh, Vince James. Yeah. Uh, from, uh, BJAA. Okay.

[00:22:42] And so we were both, uh, at the sperm and while I was on this leave of absence, uh, I had done a project and he had a lead on a project that he wanted to pursue. And so we went after that project with another firm and, uh, landed it. And, um, a few years later decided to go our separate directions.

[00:23:08] And, uh, by that time we had done a few buildings and, uh, you know, just kept going individually. Hmm. And, you know, I think, I like to think of it as one good practice becoming two good practices. That's a good way to say it. I just had that happen last year to me. Yeah. So it, it's, it's, it's very difficult, right? To find that perfect partner. Yeah. It is. It is.

[00:23:33] And that you're not overlapping lanes, but you have the same priorities and how you, yeah. How you navigate it is not so, it's not exactly simple. Right. But. Yeah. Yeah. You figure it out. Yeah. Um, and so like getting back to that idea of a finding your place within architecture and creating something meaningful.

[00:24:02] What was the sort of first project that, within the practice that really checked those boxes for you where you said like, ah, this is what, this is what I think architecture is. And the client didn't screw it up, you know, like, do you have that? Well, you know, um, I like to think that early in my career, I started working with what I called, uh, the vision guy.

[00:24:26] And, uh, I had a call from, uh, a person, uh, that Bob Servanka has made my mind. Mm-hmm. And he owned a plastics, uh, company. And he wanted to do, um, a new facility in Richmond, Wisconsin. Mm-hmm. And, uh, what was cool about it, it's a factory. And what was interesting is factories hadn't had architectural attention for many, many years.

[00:24:56] It's the Bauhaus, yeah. And so it had this art, this architectural root, really, uh, but nothing had evolved for me. So I started working with him. And what was interesting about it is, um, it was kind of the first project was, uh, I did all the documents, uh, because they wanted to do a design build. And I said, no, I want to detail the whole thing. And, um, we did.

[00:25:26] And then, you know, just doing CA, you know, was just, you know, constantly moving things back on track. Yeah. And it was great. And, and I had such great support, uh, from Bob throughout that. It was amazing because he wanted to reinvent his business. So when I say he was vision guy, it wasn't, his vision wasn't Tire Julie. Right.

[00:25:53] His vision was he wanted his team to work together from the front office to the back office. Yeah. And then we went to photograph the building and, and there's this giant bridge crane. And I wanted to move it down or move it to a certain point that it would look good in the shot. For me, for the shot. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so I had to have somebody show me how to do that. Oh.

[00:26:20] As, as we were packing up to go, I said, well, thanks for the bridge crane lesson. And he said, well, thank you for building this facility. It's a joy to work in because there was daylight on, on the production floor. Yeah. And that was just cool. I mean, that was just cool to have somebody that works there to say you changed the way they think about their work. Right. My daily things. Yeah. And, and, and so, yeah.

[00:26:48] How did you evolve sort of that factory typology? Well. In that back house area? Or was it just more paying more attention? Yeah. Paying more attention. And, and like I say, it was this. So the typology before was a big box with a little box in front. Mm. And then what? You get a nice brick box in the front. You get your metal on. You don't see the metal box. You only see the brick.

[00:27:15] And the way that, that he was trying to connect the front office dam with the back was a picture window. Yeah. Literally like a six by four picture window. And, and so I thought, well, okay, so we'll just do one roof and a full glass wall. Oh, nice. Yeah. Because you have to control dust and you have to control noise and, and all this other stuff. So, um, we just changed the diagram. Yeah.

[00:27:44] And, you know, designed a cool kingpin truss and. Nice. Had fun. And do you, do you, do you find, you know, obviously we're all searching for that visionary client or what you called, right? And, but the, what's your advice on fishing for those, attracting those, you know, the secret. Please tell me. Yeah, I, I will.

[00:28:10] Um, so once you start working with these guys, they find you. So, uh, this was fundamentally a phone call who basically Bob called me. And, um, later on when we did the Saints stadium, uh, I had been working with a, uh, developer

[00:28:36] from Belgium and he said, I've, I hear the Saints want a new stadium. And so we did it as part of this master plan. We got to know these guys and they were so cool and interesting and fun. And, and clearly their idea of a ballpark was not an orbiter ballpark. Right. Yeah. And so I, I stalked them for seven years going to games.

[00:29:03] And at the end of that, they wanted me to design it. And I said, well, you know, I've never done a ballpark. And they said, no, no, that's okay. You know, we don't want a ballpark. Nice. We want, so you probably, no, and then after that project, Lee from, uh, St. Louis kind of was looking around and he saw that we could work with somebody else.

[00:29:31] We worked with Ryan Companies on, uh, the St. Paul piece. And we worked with HRK then on the St. Louis piece. So you need to have somebody that can deliver. You know, really knows the ins and outs of how these places work. And then, and then be able to, in two ways, right? Communicate your value, communicate your idea to people who then are coming to you and saying, I don't care if you've never done the stadium. I want you, Julie, please. Yes.

[00:30:01] Right. Uh, and, but then also, yeah, have that clarity in the team organization and as they know to, uh, equitably create something, right? Yeah. So easy. Collaboration. It's all easy stuff, right? Yeah. Well, collaboration is, is, I mean, it's at the basis of our work and that's why so often in the lecture I want to credit the, our collaborators because they're so essential to delivering the

[00:30:29] work and, you know, it, it's, it, you can't do it without them. Right. Yeah. And that, I was, I just so impressed that our guys could put together the three different models and create a video. Oh, right. That, that's, that's not so simple. Yeah. Yeah. It turns out. Yeah. But it can be done. Yeah.

[00:30:54] There's a nice animation of, of her, of the house at the end and it was two landscape architects and, and a house and yeah. No, it was a landscape architect and interior design and art select. Yeah. Our art consultant, I guess she, she did both. And it's nice that you from a principal position can recognize that, right? That, that a lot of people was like, yeah, just make me the animation and yeah, just do it. Push the button. It'll go.

[00:31:24] But you don't want to just see one thing. So we, up to that point, we had been showing, you know, the furniture model and here's the architecture model and here's the landscape model. Right. Yeah. It's all, it's all one thing. Yeah. Yeah. I suppose, you know, large firms have known how to do that for years and years. Yeah. But. They're just fun. Nice. Well, I just, yeah. Thank you for coming.

[00:31:51] It's been a joy to have you here and be able to talk with you and see your projects and looking forward to see what you continue to do. So thank you. Let's see if they all get built. Yeah. Well, you know, one or two. They would. Yeah. They actually, two of them are built already. Nice. So. There you go. There you go. Perfect. Great. Thanks. You can visit architecting.com. That's architect dash I N G. Dot com to see images from this week's guest. And please rate and review the show.

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